Calvinism Debate: Steve Gregg vs James White, Part 1
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- Day 1 of a radio debate between James White, the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries (www.aomin.org) and Steve Gregg, bible teacher and radio host at The Narrow Path (thenarrowpath.com).
White's bio from A&O: "James White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries. He is Professor of Church History and Apologetics at Grace Bible Theological Seminary, and has taught Greek, Hebrew, Systematic Theology, Textual Criticism, Church History and various topics in the field of apologetics for numerous other schools. He has authored or contributed to more than twenty four books, including The King James Only Controversy, The Forgotten Trinity, The Potter’s Freedom, The God Who Justifies and What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur’an. He is an accomplished debater, having engaged in more than one hundred eighty moderated, public debates with leading proponents of Roman Catholicism, Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormonism, as well as critics such as Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, and John Shelby Spong. Before travel restrictions James debated in such locations as London, Sydney, as well as in mosques in Toronto and South Africa. He is a Pastor/Elder of Apologia Church in Arizona. He has been married to Kelli for more than forty years, and has two children, and five living grandchildren."
#calvinism #sovereignty #god #salvation #arminianism #stevegregg #jameswhite #debate #debates #theology #christianity #christian #church #biblestudy #bible #discussion #reformed #calvinist #johncalvin #saintaugustine #choice #freewill #fatalist #determinism
![fellow fellow - PROUD feat. INK WARUNTORN [STRING QUARTET]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BQrVkMPTdHE/mqdefault.jpg)
But here we all are… discussing the things of God. Don’t we all love it!! Blessings to all the brethren!!
Thank you for cleaning up the audio on this. I listened to the original debate on am radio back in the day.
Both of these men are a gift from God. I love Steve Gregg for his eschatology and I love James White for his teaching on predestination and election! Thank you for posting this!
They both have the same eschatology. Also you need to realize how wrong you are on Calvinism.
@@jasonbourne5142 You are quite wrong. Steve Gregg is Amillennial and James White is Postmillennial. And I am not wrong on what the Bible teaches of the doctrine of grace. You really must be a better student of the word of God.
@@JesusBothLordandChrist both are idiots. grace means free. compelled is not free.
I am save by grace alone i hope everyone understand what this means.
No question about that. At the same time salvation is conditional.
Saved by grace THROUGH faith. God set the terms by which He will bestow His grace, not us. The terms are repent and believe.
Repenting and believing doesnt save anyone, those are but the terms. It is still God by His grace that chose to give eternal life to all who believe.
That is one of the calvinist's many misconceptions.That faith saves you, and since faith saves it must therefore come from God otherwise man has something to boast about.
Sounds logical, but it's based on a false premise.
How do non Calvinist deal with these verses?
Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
There is no “yeah but…” in these verses, nothing but grace. Not grace plus something else, not grace but something else, not conditional grace, etc….just grace alone through faith in Christ alone, the faith is not a condition or a work done by humans…this faith is a free gift from God. Any works being added can only be the works done by God, otherwise there is no longer grace. Salvation can not be both by faith alone and also conditional by works…it’s one or the other. Either God is completely sovereign over His Salvation or He needs man’s cooperation to achieve His plan of redemption. I think most if not all Christians agree, God doesn’t need or require anything from man to accomplish His will. He could cause the rocks to worship Him if He willed it. There’s no reason to add anything to this amazing grace, no reason except for pride, arrogance, and ego. Repent and turn from your wicked ways, your works based salvation. Even 1% of the work taken away from God is offensive and insulting to Him. Repent and trust in Jesus alone, 100% His finished work on the cross is the only way to salvation.
My respects to both gentleman.
Even as much as I have admired James white in debating other faiths, this one was not very convincing. Steve Gregg really laid it out clearly and convincingly.
Thank you for the dialog!
One side clearly pointed to scripture and what God has spoken while the other leaned on man’s understanding.
@@jp22344
Yes it’s a common tactic James use’s, proof texts loaded with Augustinian philosophies.
@@markshanehPlease show specific evidence of your assertions.
Uh…what? Lol
@@markshanehthat’s a strange way of saying you don’t have any idea of what you’re talking about.
I cropped myself out of both photos used above, that I had taken when each of these gentlemen spoke at churches in my area. Dr. White has has done a masterful job debating with atheists, muslims, jehovah's witnesses, mormons, king james onlyists, gay theologians, roman catholics, the likes of Bart Ehrman, etc., where I very much agree with him. There's great videos of him witnessing to mormons and others and appreciate how he responds to many cultural and social issues. But this is one area where I very much disagree with him. ~ Jason
What dates were these recorded?
EDIT: The dates for the 5 days are April 3, 4, 7, 8, and 9, 2008, according to the Wesleyan Arminian Wordpress blog.
Can or will JesusChrist EVER,,,, UN,,, redeem his own and ABORT THEM?
John 6:44 LSB
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 LSB
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” - John 12:32
Steve Gregg responds to a Calvinist caller asking about John 6:44 www.matthew713.com/petersen/call/2018031205
@@SteveGreggVideos
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” - John 12:32"
In this passage 'everyone' is not in the Bible; it just says 'all'.
@@tomthumb3762 Yes, rather than all men, Jesus meant all chipmunks.
@@SteveGreggVideosevery kind of.
Such brotherly discussions are helpful to the body of Christ and direct us to what the Scriptures say and what they mean. I tend to support Dr. Whiter's position, but we all need to get back to the Scriptures and seek to understand them in a historical, grammatical, and literary way. I find such debates helpful. Thank you to both brothers. SDG!
Amen and Soli Deo Gloria indeed!
Gregg doesn’t exegete any scripture at all. That should tell an honest listener all they need to know.
Scripture is easy enough to understand on its own. White just keeps reading things into the text that aren't there and by starting with Calvinism he unsurprisingly ends up at Calvinism.
Actually, Steve uses Scripture to interpret Scripture, which is the best and proper hermeneutic. People like White want to get into the weeds so deep that you can make it say almost anything. He does so much gaslighting that only a fan boy would deny such.
Free will is such an idol to so many people. And they get so angry with the idea of their idol being threatened that they’ll do anything, including twisting God’s word, to uphold their idol
Well Matt the early church was believing themselves and teaching to new believers idolatry. A new church built on an idol? There are excellent materials that examines free will in the early church. BOTH positions cannot hold TRUE.
@@AGSunday I didn’t realize you were around 2000 years ago. I’m also not talking about people who lived 2000 years ago. I’m talking about people today, who elevate the will of man above the purposes of God. And if you think the early church didn’t have serious issues, you haven’t read Paul’s letters. They also didn’t have the best theology. So I wouldn’t exactly brag about sharing their soteriological views.
@@matt_h_27 Lol I was not I can confirm that. My simple point was what did the early church teach ? I am not asking to win an argument nor convince you in fact the only thing I care about is the truth. What is the truth? Did the early church teach free will or did they teach non free will (to simplify)?
I have noticed that too. Freewillism is the default Arminian position of those who do not understand the nature of fallen man - total depravity. I myself was a "freewiller" until the Lord showed me from His word that I had nothing to do with my salvation, and that it was ALL of grace because He chose me before the foundation of the world. AMEN and happy new year to all.
@@JesusBothLordandChrist Amen, all of His grace because of His sovereign choice to save us! Soli Deo Gloria!
Calvin's view flies in the face of LOVE! Love is a free will gift, to make someone love you is not love at all Dr. White
It's not calvin's view it's biblical doctrine. And god is not subjecting himself to your definition of love. You and I drink sin like water and have desperately wicked hearts. Have you EVER read your Bible?
God's thoughts and ways are higher than our ways.
@@dennis87885 Not these truths!!! These are plain, clear, emphasized in Scripture and only men who are carnal and unregenerate Are intellectually dishonest about these clear scriptures.
ARMINIANISM IS ANOTHER JESUS!!!
@SoundDoctrineToday I agree my friend.
@@dennis87885 What do you agree with?
There is absolutely no discernable difference between the theology Calvinism and atheistic naturalism.
Both assert we have no free will and simply act according to forces beyond our control.
Interestingly Jesus stated:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
How much examination have you done in area of Reformed Theology? You comment on the surface appears very dishonest and very little understanding of Reformed Theology.
@@jp22344
Wow, that is a very dishonest assessment and clearly heavily biased.
@@sparkyy0007 🤣👍
@@sparkyy0007And yet you did not answer the question.
@@jp22344
Yours wasn't a question, it was just an ad hominem attack fallacy.
One also doesn't need extensive training in Islamic theology to know it's false.
Calvinism is a false doctrine for the reason posted in the OP, and there are many more.
Address that argument if you can, but ad hom attacks aren't arguments my friend.
I enjoyed this. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
As an silicone valley software engineer and a Christian, I can assure you Dr White doesn't understand two facts:
hardening does not put new configuration in, it simply doesn't allow existing configuration to be changed further.
You intended... I intended != I intended you to do... I intended myself to do otherwise
I couldn't care less about the term "Calvinist" or the acronym TULIP, but predestination is clearly shown in many verses in scripture, I'm not willing to deny any scripture because I don't fully comprehend God and his grand plan.
Very wise reply. We don't have to understand everything, just believe what God has said. So often people try to figure out God's ways, and when they can't, they just say well God must not have meant what it says in the Bible. Or they just change it to say the exact opposite.
True, but vague .Who are predestined in the context of the scripture and what does the word predestination mean within the context of the scripture?
@@atyt11 The ones who are God's elect are predestined to salvation. The ones that the Father has given to the Son are the ones predestined to salvation. John 6:37-39
I don't know anyone who denies predestination is not Biblical. I know plenty (and I am one) who believe people aren't individually elected to salvation from the beginning of time. I do believe people who put their faith in Christ are "predestined" to go to Heaven. The destination is set.
@@JesusBothLordandChrist again I don't think anyone should or would refute this. Who the elect are, and how they "become elect" or however you want to say it is likely the point of contention.
One side believes God has chosen to save certain individuals, others believe God has chosen to save individuals who put their faith in Christ.
As usual in Armenian be Calvinism debates. Former uses human philosophy vs former us the word of God. If I have seen once I have seen it a thousand times. Context vs human desire
Your comment is unclear. You use "former" twice...
Spiritually dead men do not cooperate with grace. unless regeneration takes place first there is no possibility of faith.
It takes the power of divine intervention to save spiritually dead men.
Where does the Bible say that?
@@TrueLifeAdventures
It doesn’t, as I suspect you already know.
@@TheAhull15 Exactly!👍
I can speak for myself. While I'm not a Calvinist (because i dont exactly know what it ALL means, as i have never read his writings), I know for sure God had to predestinate me, and bring me to salvific faith because i wasn't going to believe.
But that's just me.
It's not just you. It's all who come to saving faith. If He hasn't predestined us, we will never believe. Amen ❤
GOD predestined all to be saved, you simply surrender to his calling thats the point.
@@BlessedFavouredHands That is universalism not the Biblical doctrine of predestination. If God predestined all to be saved they why are all not saved? Why do so many reject Christ and go to hell?
@@PostmillennialChristian97that's actually not universalism!
@@rerichoj8712 It absolutely is. If you say God predestines all to be saved, that's exactly what universalism is. If you think my definition is not universalism then please explain what you think it is.
I love how much Dr. White uses Bible. Sure he reaches a little but its noticable how much more Scripture James White uses. God's Word is truth and even in debates. I wish all of his opponents did the same.
The way that he uses the Bible is often to read a Bible verse as if that proves his position, when there are alternative ways of understanding the supposed prooftexts. Effective perhaps when someone presupposes Calvinism, not so much when it isn't presupposed.
When it isn't presupposed it's more like... "Ok, you read something that doesn't contradict my position at all, because these x y or z reasons"
Just throwing out Bible verses without understanding the larger context is not the proper way to understand the Bible..White is a master of this. Steve Gregg has posted numerous lectures on Calvinism where he goes through EVERY Calvinist verse and exegetes these in light of the context.
Thanks Steve! I think you have the stronger position tbh.
Shall the king of heaven and earth not have His way?
Every non-Calvinist Christian I know believes that God gets His way.
Human will is more important than anything else
God's will is definitely not dependent on the will of any man. Psalm 135:5, 6 "For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps." AMEN
@@gerardgmz Man has always wanted to be God, that's for sure.
God's way is for humans to choose to love and follow him. He doesn't force them to be regenerated. He doesn't make them believe and trust and love because programmed love is not love. In order for true love and faithfulness to be possible, there has to be a choice between love and hate, good and evil, obedience and rebellion. Though obviously many resist his will and rebel against him, God gets glory and loving eternal relationship with billions of his creations. So yes, the King of heaven and earth does get his way.
"why does he believe? Maybe any number of reasons"
no.
One reason. You must be born again
Amen bro. The Arminians put belief before the new birth, which is totally backward. New birth is first, then faith is enabled and given by God.
During this session, Steve laid out an easily understandable, even paced and logical biblical position, whereas James laid into it like a 4th of July pinwheel, unrelated scriptures flying every which way. I understand Calvinism well, but I was confused by James White's all-over-the-place approach and nothing he said really gelled.
Perhaps he'll settle down in the next part.
None seek after God is in scripture, all are rebellious to God is in scripture, we are all children of wrath is taught in scripture, we all have a dead stone heart is taught in scripture. Now if none seek after God then what makes them seek Him? God draws them and Jn 6:44-45 teach that those drawn are taught by God and everyone taught by God come to Him so, in this case which is in the word of God, who is in hell?
Love and appreciate the efforts of both gentlemen. Gregg is an awesome teacher who is kind of a sleeper, in my opinion. The traffic on his online sources is disproportionately low compared to many/most other popular online ministries. I've learned a great deal from White, as well. I go to a small church and was surprised last year to look over and see him sitting not far away. Then he got up and gave a talk. Our pastor hadn't mentioned this at all and was something of a surprise to see this guy I'm so familiar with sitting right there. I'm inclined to agree with Gregg on this, though. When I look at the relational language used so frequently throughout Scripture...either in terms of marriage or in the parent/child relationship...I am compelled to then reflect on the relevant principles in my own marriage and own experiences as both a child and a parent. The whole of Scripture makes more sense to me in this light. With the exception of hyper-Calvinism, I think we can find a lot of common ground...and certainly don't see anything to divide the body over. Ultimately, every position runs up against brute facts and the limitations of the creatures knowledge/understanding.
one of the reason why Steve online traffic maybe slow is the fact he is not a Christian-Zionist
most western Christians worship the anti-Christ nation so called Israel Steve teaches the plain scriptures of the new testament which is fulfilled in Christ Jesus.
I have not been trained in theology. I have studied and talked about (debated?) many things over decades. My study has led me to accept Calvinism.
Interesting. I was convinced of Calvinism before I really studied Scripture in depth on the topic for myself. The Scriptures in context led me out of Calvinism's strong grip.
I've been waiting for this!
So Mr. White, God can do whatever He pleases yet according to you He can't give man free will?
24:12
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first COMMANDMENT. Mark 12:30 KJV
@@KeepingWatch95 I'm not sure if you'll find a Christian who disagrees that this is God's doctrine.
@@KeepingWatch95 Do you have point in posting these verses?
Of course I understand his point. How is that relevant to the discussion?@@KeepingWatch95
I was an Arminian, now I’m a Calvinist, James has a defence from scripture , Steve makes arguments from emotion and feelings.
Such as?
This is an assertion I hear from Calvinists a lot but they never have examples. Both sides seem to argue from scripture, they just have different interpretations of scripture.
You have to be a bit careful with this line of thinking because you can make a reasoned argument that quotation of scripture in of itself is not truth. The most overt instance of this in the Bible is the temptation of Jesus in Luke 4 verses 9-12 where the devil quotes Psalms 91:11-12 as scriptural backing for his gambit for Jesus to demonstrate his son-ship ("If you are the Son of God") by what amounts to a suicide attempt relying on God's sovereignty to save him via his angels. Jesus counters his ruse with another quotation of scripture, in this case Deut 6:16 as his basis refusal to acquiesce to the devil's scheme. Who in this instance has the "truth"?
A second concern is that the context of "scripture" drifts over time and between various denominations and sects (orthodox, reformed, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, etc.). In the time of Jesus ministry, Jesus makes a claim that he is "the truth, the way, and the life" (John 14:6). He also goes out of his way to use his authority to claim the Old Testament as scripture, first in word (Matt 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40, Luke 24:27), and also in deed to a very small group of His disciples through the transfiguration (Matt 17:1-13). Note that Moses and Elijah represent the Jewish superstars of the "Law" (Moses) and the "Prophets" (Elijah), a supernatural collision of the Old Testament with Jesus, but only reveals to a very few.
In the context of the early church writings, many of which are collected in the New Testament, what is Scripture? Is it the purely the Old Testament authenticated by Jesus himself, or has it drifted through councils of men into the canons that exist today. Since there hasn't been another incarnate appearance of Jesus at these councils to my knowledge, uncertainty remains and arguments will ever continue. And that uncertainty enables us as believers to continue to seek Him and provides opportunity to demonstrate faith (as faith by its very nature requires uncertainty). Hopefully we can do so with humility.
I've got a feeling you didn't listen to anything Steve Gregg said the entire debate
That's an unfair baseless claim.
White doesn’t seem to believe that God allows events without being the author of all such things, but God cannot even look upon sin, as Scripture says, let alone be the instigator of sin. Yes, he’s sovereign over all, is aware of all that goes on in this world, and can orchestrate events according to his plan, but he doesn’t micromanage us. That’s why we are responsible for our own sin! He stands with arms open, waiting for us to come to him for life, and forgiveness, like the Prodigal Son story shows us.White just reiterates his proof texts, and never offers a response appropriately to other texts that seem to refute his argument. It’s like two ships, passing in the night, when someone tries to debate Dr. White.
How much research of both positions have you done? What books have you studied?
Do you assume they have done no research because of their conclusions or is this a genuine question?
@@jameschappell-ih4cw nah he keeps pasting the same thing over and over to anyone he disagrees with
Again proof of the straw man, attach the man instead of addressing the scripture. God can do anything He wants, He wants free people to freely love Him, in my understanding.
@@NLASMINISTRY lol thats not what strawman argument means
Man, White wiped the floor with Gregg’s arguments on this one. I really hope the other days of this debate go better for Gregg.
“Wiped the floor?” What does it benefit a man to “wipe the floor?”
It would be more godly to hope that truth prevails and Christians are drawn closer to Jesus Christ and that some sort of unity between brethren can come of this, rather than one man "wiping the floor" with another man. That said, I do think James White presented the better argument. But Steve Gregg is a good and godly brother just the same.
So we are saved by our decision. Great is man who makes great decision then.
Man should make great decision, it is the test of man. But we are saved by Jesus through Gods grace, just as Abraham had faith and it was counted toward him as righteousness, even though Abraham had no knowledge of Jesus as far as we know. Is there any indication in Scripture that Abraham was dragged to faith?
@@tedbastwock3810dragged to faith?
@@bucky91361 Yes, thats the terminology of the Calvinists.
@@tedbastwock3810 no, sorry, that's not what a Calvinist believes. Would you like to hear what we believe about that?
@@bucky91361That absolutely is the Calvinist doctrine.
Steve did a great job! His arguments were compelling and the other guy didn’t really address the issues.
Free will is a red herring. Why? Because the will is a derivative. Your will is free. My will is free. Our wills are free only in the sense that they are a derivative of our nature. Every creature's will is bound by its nature. Cats freely will to kill birds because it is in their nature to do so (even if they are not hungry). Being very pedantic about the issue, we only will things that our nature allows. In my fallen nature I say things of the Spirit of God are foolish but further I have no capacity to receive them because they are not within the realm that my nature understands. In 1st Corinthians 2 & 3 Paul lays down the definition of 3 kinds of mankind. Spiritual men, natural men and carnal in that order. Spiritual men are "partakers of the Divine nature". Natural men do not possess the Divine nature. Carnal men are like the Corinthian believers. They are babies and are feed milk that they may grow. They possess the Divine nature and will grow into the full grown man in Christ. How do I know that they possess the new nature in Christ? They are being fed. You do not feed dead things. So, think nature first and think of will as a second order thing that is governed by nature.
Historically, Steve has said that certain people or denominations have their interpretations of Scripture becuase they come to the Biblical text with the lens of their denomination. Therefore, they are only willing to, and able to, see Scripture for what they want it to say and cannot fathom what it actually says or could say otherwise. Which is very true of so many. I think we see this clearly already in Dr. James White’s, and other Calvinists’, Biblical examples and their interpretations of them. It is such a strange thing to me how one person can read a verse and see its meaning so drastically different than another. Yet the Bible, in any verse, only says one thing. Looking forward to the entirety of this debate. Thank you, Steve. And also James.
In my case I was saved in an Arminian type of fundamental Baptist church and didn't know anything about so called "Calvinism". I was there for four years until the Lord providentially moved me to a Presbyterian church. For the first time I heard the doctrines of grace but still didn't quite understand. So I began to study, deep dive if you will. The Lord showed me what election and predestination actually mean. So I guess that after that I became a "Calvinist", even though I do not like that label at all. I hate that the body of Christ has to be so divided over this issue, but I do believe that most of us are defending what we believe God is saying/doing in the work of redemption, and at least for me, I will continue to defend God's sovereignty in salvation - it is His work and His work alone.
@@JesusBothLordandChrist Though I can’t agree with, excuse the label, Calvinism, I thank God that, as many are, are saved having come to believe in the Person, knowledge and hope of Jesus Christ. And I agree with you that it is a shame that the body divides itself over these secondary issues. Which is why I chose not to debate doctrine publicly and scarcely in private unless I see a brother or sister’s views will cause them to stumble in some way. Unity in the Body/Spirit was such a key principle that the Apostle Paul so fervently taught, and that even Christ taught “by this the world will know you are my disciples, if you love one another” and prayed for in John 17 - that “they would be one.” How divided the Body has become has hurt our witness to the world. It is a shame, but such is that nature of sinners. Even those saved by grace. God bless you, brother.
Whether God ordained certain people to believe or not or whether God simple allows the unbeliver to sin or falls under Gods ordinational hand ,the outcome is the same .Bottom line everyone that is unsaved does not believe untill God does hos work of giving you belief ,Jn 6:29.Its a work of God and not of man .Nor can unsaved man manufacture belief apart from God's work .
Amen. A new birth is first required, then belief of the truth can and does take place.
Once I realized I was offended by God's sovereignty, I had a change of heart about God's word - and also discovered I was the problem, not God's election.
@@gerardgmz And that too is a work of God's grace in the heart! He is so good and so merciful!
Amen and well said.
@@gerardgmz Disagreeing with Calvinism is not the same as being offended by Gods sovereignty. I would guess that the problem you have with Steves stance is a disagreement on the word sovereignty.
This is a bizarre debate. Steve doesn’t use standard method of exegesis and hermeneutics. He just makes flat statements and to engage in the same level Dr. White is not using his masterful ability to use exegesis, knowledge in original language and tools of hermeneutics. As a result this is neither a scholarly debate nor a layman term debate between two believers. The method of engagement and its discordance is creating a fog over the substance of debate itself.
"I take the position that most people would take if they weren't trained in theology". That statement right there tells you everything you need to know. When you approach the Scripture without proper training, you'll come up with all kinds of wrong ideas. No, you don't have to be a PhD in theology, or know how to speak Greek. But there are right and wrong ways to interpret Scripture, and there are definitely more wrong ways than right ways.
The point is, he takes scripture say it's plain reading, as it was intended, and was not brainwashed and does regurgitate whatever a large institution wants people to believe.
It sounds like you'd take the position of the priests in Acts 4 regarding the "unlearned" disciples.
So you are Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox?
Question: Can God learn?
Answer: No.
Therefore, God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved.
There is one thing that God cannot do: stop being God.
If God knows what everyone chooses then why did He say to Abraham, " now I know yiu trust Me. " ? God knows the ultimate ending but gives us a freewill of choice and works everything together for our good romans 8:28
@@aservant2287
You think God didn’t know the answer to the question he was asking Abraham?
@scott5654 He didn't or wouldn't have ask. God gives a freewill choice but His plan will ultimately be in the end. How we get there is through our choice and God's chastising but His will be done. Yes God is sovereign but that doesn't mean He predestined people for destruction. People choose life or death and there's no partiality with God Romans 2:11 the Father draws all men equally in different ways. Love is giving the other party as choice to not love back or you'd be a robot
@@aservant2287
Well, then you don’t believe in an omniscient God. If he can learn, how can we trust him to know the answer of 2+2 or when will the world end, he doesn’t know, why ask him if he’s not omniscient.
@scott5654 God is all knowing and can't be taught anything but He can't force Himself on people to make them love Him and for that doesn't know what we will choose on everything. You seem to want make God author of everything including sin and evil. God knew satan would fall and knows if your faith genuine right now but you could decide tomorrow not to serve anymore because freewill gives you that option. So now you're going to ask if God knew that satan will rebel why did God make satan? Because everyone must choose life by choosing between God or satan by accepting the free gift. God allows us to go through things by satan because how much would we enjoy heaven If we didn't go through troubles here? We appreciate the good times better if we've through lot. For we know that all things work together for those who love God and called according to His purpose romans 8:28. We are all predestined to love God and we can accept Christ or not but in the end God knows who will make it and who won't but draws all men equally in different ways. Lol Tulip great flower but heretical doctrine
From 33:15 thru 47:00 Excellent response
Masterclass by James White!
Dr. White is brilliant!
Mr white is dumb he believes demonic doctrines
Thank you for your clear presentation, Steve! I am still not convinced of your position because I don’t think your Biblical case is strong enough, but your clarity is a breath of fresh air in this particular debate topic.
They are both good and godly men, but I have to go with James White on this after over 30 years of studying the Word of God. I love to listen to Steve Gregg on other topics, especially eschatology.
@@JesusBothLordandChrist I will stay with the Bible, any ism(Calvinist armanism)that's there stay away from them.
@@Joe-xg1yt I'm not crazy about the "isms" either but it's one way to categorize. I just prefer to say something is Scriptural or non-Scriptural. Labels are helpful up to a point though.
@@JesusBothLordandChrist , I agree my friend but as for me, one can label me as follower of the way.
@@Joe-xg1yt Joe, is the way Mennonite?
I have always wondered how non-calvinists think that prophecies are fulfilled.
Do they think that Jesus went to the cross by accident?
God is much more powerful than you and I. He knows the future. If you don't think he can know the future and know the future of free will individuals without causing all events, or making decisions for them, then I guess you don't think God is as powerful and intelligent as we do.
He knows the future because He looked into time to see who would believe? Then that would mean God is not all knowing He had to learn something?
@@terryburton6967
Wrong, God never learned anything.
Prophecy becomes entirely unremarkable under Calvinism because of this very wonder. It’s not hard to tell what will come to pass if you meticulously control every variable. Prophecy doesn’t actually mean anything if there’s no wonder at how someone could have possibly known that.
@@ryanwall5760
Isaiah 53 tells of Jesus going to the cross; do you think it was just a coincidence?
Many time in the Bible it says that prophecy must be fulfilled; do you think that happens by accident?
First time listening to you, Steve, and really enjoying it! 🙌🏻✝️❤️
Welcome aboard!
Hi, my name is Jason and I run this channel. I'm glad you've found Steve's teaching to be a blessing, as have I.
On my channel page (www.youtube.com/@stevegreggvideos), you'll have hundreds of topical and verse-by-verse teachings. My friend Tim also runs a channel featuring Steve Gregg (www.youtube.com/@thenarrowpath.com). Steve supplies with most of the videos.
Steve Gregg has many more free MP3 teachings and a daily call-in radio program called The Narrow Path at thenarrowpath.com/. You may find ways to contact Steve there, and he also participates in the Facebook group, "Steve Gregg - The Narrow Path (Facebook group ( facebook.com/groups/stevegreggtnp/ ).
If you have questions, you can search all the calls Steve has taken for years at www.matthew713.com/, where you'll also find more for many of his lectures.
Lastly, many of Steve's lectures are transcribed at opentheo.org/steve-gregg.
All of this is free and done organically by volunteers as a service to the body of Christ.
“Now God commands all to repent”. Calvinist “only some can repent if God makes
Them born again first.”
" There is NONE who seeks after God"
^
What is the natural state of mankind? Paul make the natural state clear. The natural man does not receive Spiritual things because he thinks that they are foolishness and because he lacks the capacity to know them. "But natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know [them] because they are spiritually discerned..." 1 Cor 2:14
So God repented that he had made Man in Genesis but in reality this was his intention all along. This reminds me of the words of the serpent to Eve in the garden. _Hath God said?_
Is it just me, or does anybody else see an odd resemblance between the chosenness aspect of Calvinism and the chosenness which is central to Judaism? I dont really know what to make of it, and perhaps theres nothing interesting there at all, just something that occurred to me and havent heard discussed before.
Absolutely
@@ForrestS is it absolutely just me 😇 or do you also notice a strange resemblance?
@@tedbastwock3810 I notice the resemblance, though I don't find it to be strange.
Indeed. Perhaps it's more ironic than strange. When you consider how Israel grew prideful in their chosenness, they grew secure in it, which something similar comforts the Calvinist, they view themselves as the 'select of the elect.'
And Israel were warned about how Abraham being their father would not help them, this connects to the Seed of Abraham, the ultimate fulfilment being Christ. One needs the FAITH of Abraham, not the blood or lineage of Abraham. The Calvinist then says what God commands, FAITH, is the result of being CHOSEN, yet, the Scriptures declare otherwise. Faith IN Christ makes us the chosen of God. It is only by believing in Him, abiding in Him, and He in us that any find security. In other words, much of Israel missed out on what God was always calling them to (relationship), because they drew near to their 'chosenness', not near to Him.
Ironically, even the alleged "go-to" passages of the Calvinist, Romans 9-11, which explains how Israel wound up in their wretched situation despite being 'chosen', which _isn't_ a treatise on the steps of soteriology, or on God's arbitrary sovereignty, or a demonstration of God 'flexing' His sovereign muscle, that we should cry out 'Sovereign, Sovereign, Sovereign' or 'Chosen, Chosen, Chosen'.
Rather, Paul uses it as a warning and explanation, that FAITH was lacking, and led to their demise which was a fitting judgment. And yet, God OPENED up a greater salvation, for believing Jews and believing Gentiles, with a better covenant. Yet we are reminded those cut off can be grafted back in through faith, and Gentiles grafted in should stay humble. It seems the intended lesson given for ALL the Church in Scripture is ultimately lost on the Calvinist.
Good point at 27 minutes Steve, regarding the character of God, and the focus being on God's love..! The opposing view, when taken to its full conclusion whether it takes a year or 30 years,, ultimately leads people and yes, true saved believers, to believe that God is a mean tyrant.
The one question I've never had answered when it comes to God's sovereignty-
The America's didn't even have a chance to hear the Gospel for over 1400 years. Was that "fair"? What about the Japanese? Mongolians? Aborigines? Etc.
The arguments against Calvinism basically come down to, "It's not fair for God to punish people who couldn't believe without Him making them able." So does that mean the Incas, the Aztecs, the Mayans, and the multitude of North American tribes have an argument against God? They were cut off from even knowing about Israel (Babel came before Abraham) and had to wait a long time to hear about Jesus's atoning sacrifice. Could they say, "God didn't even give me a chance?"
According to Romans one everyone has been given the light of creation and an inward witness of a God conscious. Everyone can see that there is a God by the things that have been made and everyone knows within themselves that God exists. So it's up to the individual to respond to the light that God has given them to receive more light in order that they may be saved. Romans two says that those who fail to acknowledge God will be judged according to the inward witness of their heart and consciousness.
@@TH-camhatesconservativespeech If we all know already and we're only accountable for "the light that God has given" us, then why the need for the Gospel? Just knowing that there is a god doesn't carry with it salvation. Even the demons know.
@@TH-camhatesconservativespeech It's also notable that from the same chapter you cite, the scripture says, "God gave them up."
So the question comes down to, can God’s grace be demanded?
@@controlclerk The point is what we do with that light that has been given to us? If we respond to the light given to us in a positive way, then God will give us more light leading to the Gospel which in turn leads to our salvation by believing and placing our faith in Christ. I never said the light of creation replaces the Gospel, ... The light of creation leads us to the proof that God exists , after learning of His existence we are led to learn of His Gospel.
You must first recognize that there is a Creator God , believe that He is before you can believe the gospel. So you can either respond to the light in a positive way that leads to the Gospel and salvation of your soul. Or you can respond to the light in a negative way and suppress the light given to you and be separated from God for all eternity.
You mention if you have the light what need is there for the gospel? Again I never said that, I never said the light saves. The light which is revelation isn't what saves you its grace through faith that we are saved by what Christ has done for us through the Gospel.
Now I will say to you if Irresistible Grace is true and regeneration proceeds faith then what need is there for the Gospel? Which is why Irresistible Grace and regeneration proceeding faith is false teachings.
I am a catholic but the majority of its theology and doctrines do not make any sense for me. So I adopt all of the Calvinist theology and doctrines. It is because the grace of God the Trinity alone, amen.
“When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying [praising and giving thanks for] the word of the Lord; and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior].”
Acts 13:48 AMP
His blood was not shed for the ones who don’t declare him as Lord , they will die in their sins and perish.
Christ is the propitiation for our sins, he took our sins and bore them, he is the only way we are washed clean and accepted and reconciled to God. That blood is not covering those who do not accept him as Lord and Savior
Absolutely not, the precious blood of christ was not spilled for those who are not saved, but for the ones who are saved and will be saved, it is the blood of Christ that saves us and keeps us and we shall always look to and remember his FINISHED WORK. The question that needs a precise answer is this: Did He or didn’t He? Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didn’t He? If He did, then it was not for all the world, for then all the world would be saved. IT WAS FOR HIS CHILDREN WHO DECLARE HIS NAME, Why did Christ come to die? Did He come simply to make salvation possible, or did He come to actually obtain eternal redemption, Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst! because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
We are a dunghill of filth without the Blood of Jesus covering us.
IT IS ONLY FOR HIS PEOPLE THAT HE DIED.
It ties right into John 3:16-18 as mentioned
He died for our sins, it pleased God to crush him, this was the will of God that we may be reconciled and God save his people.
Very well stated sir!
Thank you and may God Bless your efforts Steve.
Calvinism doesn't even stand up to common sense😂
My question to James would be did God cause Joseph’s brothers to sell him into slavery, or did God allow Joseph’s brothers, by their own sinful desires from their own evil heart, to sell his brother into slavery ?
If God caused Joseph’s brothers to sell Joseph into slavery then God would have caused evil and this goes completely against what scripture teaches. God does not tempt with evil nor did He tempt or cause Joseph’s brothers to do evil.
He did however allow them by their own sinful desires to do what they did, and He used this evil deed that they clearly did, as Joseph said what YOU did was evil. He did not blame God. But God meant the evil that you did, for good.
That is the problem with Calvinism in my opinion it makes God the Author of evil. If God so meticulously determined all things whatsoever comes to pass then He would author evil, and this is not what scripture teaches.
Let God be true and every man, and every man made creed be a liar.
I agree God is not the author of evil. I also agree many Calvinists are hard determinists in this way, which I think is dangerous if not just flat wrong.
Im not sure if James holds the same view as me, but I am a compatibilist. I would say God did not cause the brothers to sell Joseph to slavery. He actually held back their sin, allowing Joseph to be sold instead of killed like they originally wanted. The brothers freely chose to do the evil, and God allowed it to happen. God allowed it because he intended good purposes in the end. God was in control of what they did, but they did it.
I think of it like God gives boundaries to the evil that men do. The desire was there, and they acted on their own desire, but God oversaw it to work with his plans
Why are calvinists negative on most Scriptural views ? Maybe because they follow John Calvin John McArthur and John Piper?
Once again we are subjected to listening to one of the oldest debates on earth, between the synergistic man- centered subjective arminian argument versus the compatabilism God/ Man understanding
of the Sovereignty of a Creator-God and His predetermined decrees to all humanity.
It is a shame that there has always been this Arminian/ Calvinistic debate that polarises and divides us as Christians.
Must it be?
Interesting to hear Steve say ( quote ) " God's desire is for all men to be saved " ( end quote )
REALLY?
I am assuming he is refering to 2 Peter 3:9 which says ' The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is LONGSUFFERING ( my emphasis ) toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance' ( NKJ )
Salvation is not mentioned at all in this verse. The need for correct exegetical interpretation is needed.
Indeed, we read that God is longsuffering for sinful mankind to come to repentance so as to avoid perishing into hell.
Is this verse an expression of Gods love to Man, or is it a judgment upon Man?
The Arminian may say Judgment.
The Calvinist may say God's love.
There many more biblical references where God is longsuffering toward those who WILL perish, because they refuse to believe in the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for THEIR sins.
Is it God's will that all be saved?
Or is it God's will that all come to repentance?
Day 1 in this debate has convincing
been won by James White. Why?
Because the Sovereignty of God always trumps mankinds pitiful attempt to contribute something toward personal salvation.
Who subjected you to listen?
Sorry for forcing you against your will to listen to this debate.
The problem with James White's position regarding "whatever your hand determined to do" is he assumes God can only determine the larger details by determining all the smallest details. So to him, in order to have Jesus put to death God needs to control the number of olives each guard eats that day along with the size and weight of their bowel movements. 'If God doesn't control those things then how can he have control over anything?!' That's the problem with Calvinism. God is so inept at manipulating events that he has to predetermine every move, he can't actually outsmart his opponent.
Under Calvinism God determined all of Satan's moves. In reality, God outsmarted Satan and used Satan's moves against him. By putting Jesus to death Satan defeated his own cause.
Great comment.
I don’t like labels but I have observed that God searches the hearts of people everywhere and reveals himself to those who are humbly searching for the truth and the chosen remnant of peoples names are recorded in the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE! and if one’s name is not written there in, they will never come to Jesus for salvation! This is why in every non Christians families some are believers and other family members reject the gospel! PREDESTINATION BABY!!!!
Man is born dead in sin but not a dead sinner. To say one is dead to sin doesn't mean he has no potential to recognise his fallen nature. Growing up in Zimbabwe as a child taught me that something was not right in me and my position with God. I had the conviction from childhood that I was a sinner needing salvation and hence on the 22nd of September 1984 knelt down as a drunkard and confessed my sins. I was forgiven and have never turned back .
My point being that before the 22nd of September 1984 I had regular convictions about my condition of sin. I knew I was a sinner and I always had this desire and expectation of repenting one day. So to say a sinner doesn't have the ability and power to realise their fallen condition cannot be applied in my life.
After getting drunk ( smoking weed and ordinary cigarettes ) I would get conviction about my fallen state .
So I don't believe that human beings cannot seek God in their fallen nature. As a drunkard I always knew it was not right and led to hell.
It was a happy day 22nd September 1984 repenting at 9 pm no preacher no bible no knowledge of ANY 1 bible verse.
My prayer was God forgive I am a sinner ....
That was it ...
This is my testimony ....
If God knew all events prior to creation of the universe, and if God pushed over the first domino without having to do so, then all is determined.
Non of this, however, disqualifies genuine, compatibilistic free agency.
A limited intellect equates foreknowledge with determinism. I may know exactly how my son will react in a given situation, that doesn't mean I determined my son would eat the forbidden cookie.
That's just the thing... Why have some of us been determined to think that spirits - living souls (Gen.2.7) - *aren't like dominoes?* If creation is just a massive Rube-Goldberg machine containing billions of smaller Rube-Goldberg machines, why do many of said
Rube-Goldberg not believe that to be the case?
Compatibilistic 'free will'/agency is an illusion.
Dominoes aren't alive - they don't have the breath of life in them.
@@JesusBothLordandChrist Not sure what connection you are trying to make between the start and end of your comment here, they seem not necessarily related, but the entire question here is whether the "elect people" are individually or corporately elect. Steve argues the latter.
@@PETERJOHN101 Just so we're not talking passed each other, so to speak, what do you think my intended premise was with the domino analogy? No offense intended at all; I merely want to clarify.
@@PETERJOHN101Foreknowledge establishes intent. My Foreknowledge that pulling a trigger would cause a chain of events that results in a bullet causing death or harm to another person won't actually harm anyone, but it sure looks bad in a court of law that I knowingly pulled the trigger anyway.
God knew what would happen if he created the universe the way he did. That alone doesn't cause the universe to exist with all its sin and wickedness. Absolutely correct. But question: who created the universe? A demiurge?
I struggle to understand how you can be postmil...and Arminian. How can you exegete Matthew 24 but plainly eisgete 2 Peter 3:9!?
Wow! You can't get any more Arminian than 2 Peter 3:9! It is plain and straightforward. How do you twist, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." to support Calvinism?
@@SteveGreggVideos 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward US, not willing that any (of US) should perish, but that all (of US) should come to repentance."
2 Peter 1:3 "According as his divine power hath given unto US all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called US to glory and virtue:"
1 Peter 1:2 "ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
The US in these verses are the elect of God whom He predestined to salvation, not to all men alike.
I'm not sure why those who are not Calvinist say something like "God saves some" rather than "God saves many" when speaking about Calvinism.
@@YuelSea-sw2rpokay. Doesn’t answer comment but thx
I've got the feeling that if Paul were here today, these men would debate the scriptures with him.
You don't need to teach a child to sin, sin comes naturally. How many times we were surprised children lies, steals etc. .As a matter of fact we try to teach a child how to be good, how to love others, how to respect others and how to love God because we are naturally sinner. The only thing we are freely to decide here is to choose lesser evil if we are being honest and unbiased. If it doesn't make you realize how we are so dead in sin i don't know what will make you see it.
The theme of the book of John says this over and over again and its consistent. And Jesus is saying this to his disciples, the very people who started church, the very people who wrote the bible, the very people we look up too and still Jesus says i choose you but no one in his disciple disagree with that statement.
John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
John 6:44 NO ONE CAN COME TO ME unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 15:16 YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit-fruit that will last-and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
Lastly, we are not the owner of heaven, its Gods property so i guess all the rights to choose who enters His kingdom belongs to God alone. Besides have you ever seen an adoptee choose his adopter? Its the other way around the adopter chooses the child he wants to adopt into his family. Why? because of legal paperworks, the child has no capacity to do that, he is not eligible and entitled to do so, its the adopters duty to give all the requirements like Jesus did on the cross for us.
Is this a recent debate or the same one from like 10 years ago?
James White certainly won this debate
Well, Mr. Gregg certainly mopped the floor with James Whites man-made theological philosophy in his opening statement and Mr. Whites response was the usual bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla mindless gibberish typically given by all Calvinists.
I'm not a Calvinist, but, sheesh. Why so hostile?
Could have been stated with a little more grace and finesse, but I agree that the droning of Calvinists is laborious and hard to sit through. I also often pick up on smarmy arrogance, too...
The age and maturity of someone is often displayed by length of their attention span and ability to actually listen to and walk through arguments that require more than a 30 second sound bite, in a Post Modern age that requires definitions because of the abject corruption that is prevalent in the English language today.
@@ForrestSSometimes deep study of scripture requires heavy lifting in a culture that refuses to think.
@@jp22344 - just don't forget that all the "knowledge" of the scriptures in the world is not salvation, nor the end of your faith.
I exhort you to read the comments of others with the aim of ascertaining what they are truly saying, and seeking good-faith dialogue...as opposed to reading things into their words and setting up strawmen via an oversimplified portrayal of their position that is devoid of any nuance...and then knocking down the strawmen with a harsh, black-and-white dichotomous answer...as if there is a villain and a hero in the discussion.
Can we just discuss these things as brethren who love Jesus and want to be right with Him? I believe we can, and strive for that, with His help.
If God loves everyone why would he say in Rev He hates the Nicolations and praises those who hate them as well?
Bc he hates what the Nicolations do and stand for? Would God hate a Nicolation who turned from the Nicolation way?
@@tedbastwock3810 if they repent yes. God's love isn't displayed like people like to think with hugs and kisses. His love is in admonishment, rebuke, judgement, forgiveness, gentleness and much more.
Love is hating evil because evil not of Christ.
Good job, gentlemen.
I interact with a lot of Baptists on a weekly basis. And of course not all people who are Calvinists but most Baptist are. What I have found is exactly right with what Steve Gregg said in his opening monologue, most Calvinists would not be if they hadn't been preconditioned to believe so. I find that most normal baptists don't really know what is true and they simply take the word of the pastor who went to seminary. That incidentally also applies to pre trib rature and 7yr tribulation. One of Pastor David Jeremiahs pastors in his own church couldn't give me two verses to prove a 7yr trib and told me he would have to study up on it. Pastor Jeremiah's main ministry is on the end times and one of his own pastors couldn't give two verses to back up a doctrine they hold. My kids go to a baptist school and my daughter asked one of the ladies who's husband is a leader there what she thought about the doctrine of election. This woman is a very godly lady who I greatly respect. Her response was, "I am not really sure to be honest. I just know I am saved". I have watched all sorts of Baptists just take what their seminary pastor says and just go with it. He must be right because he went to seminary and what do I know because I didn't. These pastors throw out a couple of hebrew or greek words every sermon to try and bolster their theological education and people just swallow it up. I'm not saying they aren't good people. But they don't search the scriptures for themselves to find out what the Bible says. The Bible says "study" to show "thyself" approved unto God. The obvious inference is "YOU" study. Not just take what the preacher says as true like the Boreans who searched the scriptures to see if Paul was telling the truth, and Paul commended them for it. If we study these things ourselves, we will find Calvinism is false.
I think we would both agree on Calvinism. Curious though what is your view on eschatology?
@glennjohn3919 my honest opinion is all these ology words that theologians have come up with over the decades has done more harm to just the body of Christ than good. These men who I appreciate have a love for the word, their desire to find something new and fresh have a tendency to find things and start interpreting things that aren't there. In my 40yrs of Christian life, I've watched it with the end times, I've seen it with Calvinism, OSAS, worship music, the doctrine of love elevated over God's holiness and the list goes on and on. It's hard to fault someone for wanting to study the Bible so thoroughly. It just seems that with all the good in it, there seems to end up being some "new" and inaccurate interpretations going on. That's how I feel. I'm not saying I'm completely accurate. Just how I feel.
At 15:45 White shows he has a very low view of God. Essentially saying “I can’t imagine how God could know things with certainty if He didn’t determine it to be such”. It sounds like he doesn’t think God is sovereign enough.
So basically right off the start if you understand theology then you will be a calvinist if you don't understand it you won't. That basically tells me all I need to know about who is right. Go calvinist LOL
So good Steve!
What does the Calvinist say sin is? The Biblical definition of sin is missing the mark. Not doing God's will. How can there be sin if God is CAUSING everything to happen? What is sin if EVERYTHING that happens, ONLY happens because GOD CAUSES it to happen? Also, how can there be obedience if EVERTHING ONLY happens because, AGAIN, God causes all to happen, even "obedience" to God's commands? What about verses like Joshua 24:15, "... CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will serve..." AND Jeremiah 19:5, where God says, "...they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did NOT command or speak, nor did it come into My mind." You'll NEVER convince me that, as hyper Calvinists believe, God causes EVERYTHING to happen, even murder, rape, child molestation, LGBTQ lifestyles, anti-Christ religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, atheism etc.
When did this debate take place?
I was wondering the same thing
@@veritas2145think it was around 8 years ago!
2015
Default position means not biblically informed
No, it means you believe what the Bible plainly teaches throughout thousands of pages, not what a thousand 6 in an ivory tower says you should believe.
This is a very good and civil discussion.
The bottom line of synergism will always lead to open theism and an assault not just on the sovereignty of God but also the knowledge of God.
Since God declared the end from the beginning, He knows who will be saved and who won't be saved.
Therefore, there are people that cannot change their eternal destiny
@ Joseph Conckle 3947,
Every person in this world are born either to be saved or the be damned, therefore every person can never change their destiny...
However...Men's choices are included(immersed) in the plan God knows will take place. The two are not seperate. If they were...then every command by God to man, and every punishment on that man as a result of disobedience would be completely non sensible and without justice. We haven't even touched the surface on the impossibility of "love" in a Calvinistic reality.
@filmscorelife4225 sounds like you are a compatiblist. I have no problem with that as long as we start with God and His other attributes.
@josephconkle3947 Yes sir. God is soverign and He has a right to rule. We can either obey or disobey Him.
@@filmscorelife4225 does God know what we will do before we do it?
no no no it’s not force it’s a gift of grace and mercy to the undeserved so that we might glorify him as he made us to.
This is all spoke of in scripture , recorded and decreed in the living word of God and I would not ever want to stand against it I plead you with , stand with Gods word and accept it and quit putting man on a pedestal we are a buncha rotten dirty smelly flesh who has no idea the true supremacy of God and the little divine revelation we do have you won’t agree with?
No one comes to me unless the father draws him, if you truly don’t believe the words of our savior, GODS PLAN OF SALVATION FOR ALL ETERNITY.
What do you do with Ephesians 1-14? Romans 9? They are elect its true, and I never ever thought I wouldn’t be never would I have chosen and I praise my savior all day long for the work HE HAS DONE AND I DESIRE TO PURSUE BECAUSE HE CHANGED MY HEART, I want zero glory it is his.
Why can’t man see this? He even recorded this in his word, you see his sovereignty from genesis 1:1 to the very end of revelation and you want to say mans free will is over his sovereignty and the doctrine of election isn’t so? Brother please stop giving credit to humans we do not deserve it
You both did a great job representing but one side gets to use Gods word and one side gets to use what they think about God
If you stand with God, stand with his word
But the man in his sinful state cannot accept the things of God. This is scripture. Man in his natural state following the Prince of the Power of the air is not loving God. They are children of disobedience. This is scripture. The natural man is at emnity with God. I could go on, but the point is this: even If God would or does allow a man to make a choice, he would only ever choose that which agreed with his will which, according to Scripture, is in opposition to God because of the Fall. Yall free-willers have to get this. Its plainly stated in scripture, even as far back a Genesis, when God refused to let Abimelech touch Sarah. Go read it. God controlled the King because Abimelech was actually a God-fearing man and God did not want to destroy him, so GOD did not allow him to take Abrahams wife. Im only trying to help you see the Glory of God. We are not God, nor can we understand why He does what He does besides the fact that He desires His nature and glory to be shown. Next time you want to feed your family, try to do so without killing some thing, whether a stalk or celery, a cow or cracking an egg. Peace be to you all.
In the words of the hulk, "Puny God." The calvinist concept of God's love is anemic. It's high in sovereignty but unfortunately defined incorrectly. With proper definitions, God can be fully loving and fully soveriegn.
One of the problems with Calvinists and Mr White is arguing outside the premise. Who says God is limited in power knowledge etc?
Who says that ? Now for Mr White to say it is a problem for us to view God as limited in power is wrong .....
When God knows a thief is going to break in my home in 2024 December and steal does that equate to limitation to power?
When a person hears a preacher preaching and hardens their own heart does that show God's limited power? No. So your argument about people claiming God's power to be limited is baseless.
Dear Mr White. In giving mankind the right and ability to exercise FREE WILL is within God's will and purpose to establish his purpose and will.
It is God's will to allow mankind to have a will.
I find it really interesting that, toward the end of the video - White is emphasizing that this refers to ALL men, the WHOLE WORLD, etc. (that they are all guilty, they're all equally worthy of condemnation, all dead in their sins, etc.) --- so, he believes that God can say (through the inspired writing of apostles) "all/every/world" THERE & it actually mean all/every & world. But, when scripture says that Christ was the propitiation for our sins, & not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world, that Christ was a ransom for every man, that Christ died for all, etc., etc. -- now all of a sudden, God, for some unknown reason, can't be clear & these alls, everys, & worlds (& there are many more than what I listed) - none of them actually mean what they say, they really mean all kinds of people. The 'every'? Not sure, every kind? There's always some excuse for why scripture doesn't mean what it says.
Steve's series on Calvinism, called "God's Sovereignty and Man's Salvation" th-cam.com/play/PLtzt3JhaK2U5h6pFtg8f2ZSPJVm3DgDvV.html&si=tXT79hqkuXYHWhpw where he looks at all the arguments for both sides, and even spends a lecture defending Calvinism...before he refutes them in the next lecture.
Steve's notes from an earlier version of this series: www.matthew713.com/notes/files/crombie_sovereignty.pdf (earlier series is here: th-cam.com/video/qAgnP26M07o/w-d-xo.html)
White made a much more convincing case here.
Ok bruh.
@@filmscorelife4225edgy
Who said you must believe, is it not God? Therefore it is His condition, His ultimatum, believe or perish. That's s decree is it not?
Scriptural sense proves calvinism to be be a man ( John calvin ) made religion .
@Gregg, I don't think that there is a verse that says all people are lost..
Roman’s 3:10. Romans 3:23
@@user-nn4bc9pv5f, all have sinned but not all are lost, Jesus redeemed us from our sins but after redemption some are lost because they don't believe that Jesus redeemed us...
I can already tell you White won this debate hands down. "A Natural reading of Scripture" is an interesting phrase by Gregg. Reminds me of a fella when I asked him how he came to Christ. The "natural reading" or natural statement biblically was simply, "Christ called me" He opened my eyes and heart to see and understand and THEN I responded. But no. Gregg thinks that all we need is a toolbox and we should know exactly what to do. I've listened to his broadcast before. I'll stick to the more reformed theological podcasts because this is where God lead me from the more "natural" position of thinking incorrectly, to a more orthodox, faithful rendering of "his ways are higher than mine".
@@YuelSea-sw2rp Exactly. I think a "natural" reading of those passages can also be easily understood when you have a high view of who our God is.
Too bad for this. I liked Steve`s Sabbath debate. But on Calvinism he fails..
Dear Mr White. God is not a creator of all things. He did not create sin . Ecclesiastes 7 vs 29 men was created upright with no sin. Sin was invented by man.
James White: God doesn't just use the freely evil intentions of men like Gregg says, He predestined their evil!
A FEW MOMENTS LATER
God restrains the evil of men. (.......which God gave them)
"Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument." - James White
Seems some are ok with trusting the limited portrayal the Bible gives of our Potter but others are limited by their own logic who then try to make things make sense.
God does what He does and we are not to question Him . Pharaoh had his purpose and so do the rest of us.
Even if you use words like “He allows it”, God is still in front of it and not surprised by anything . He knows the beginning from the end before time as we know it.
I'm not questioning God. I'm questioning you and your understanding of what God said.
In my non practicing Jewish family growing up my parents never taught us about our Creator certainly not our Messiah and we only had Hanukkah and I had a bar mitzvah. As soon as we left the nest I and two of my four sisters were chosen of God to believe in Jesus but our parents oldest and youngest sister were not chosen for salvation. Oldest sister died by her own hand and mother died in rejection of messiah and now father at 88 is on hospice and still uninterested in the truth living with youngest unbelieveing sister! Bottom line is God chooses those to whom He reveals Messiah to in each family gentile or Jewish! Eph 1:4 John 6:44,65! I don’t like to be labeled but if this is called Calvinism, sign me up!
I stand with Whites position. You only need to look around you to see the evidence. What makes one man choose God and another reject Him or ignore Him? Nobody would willingly choose God as the scriptures point out therefore if left up to mankind everyone would end up in hell and heaven would be empty after judgement day.
Edit: I want to expand on this line of reasoning. Usually the next thought would be so why would God willing create mankind knowing some people would end up in hell left to their natural state and without his interference? Well the scripture says it is for his purposes and Glory. How can we appreciate what he has done for us in redeeming us if we cannot see the other side of the coin? That is, we see those on the road to destruction and we feel immense sense of gratefulness and love that we can barely put into words but we can only fully appreciate it if we know the alternative is at the extreme end of the scale. Let’s face it, if the 2 options we had was either we go to heaven if we believe in Christ or we stay on earth as sinners for eternity, who would willingly choose going to heaven when you can live your sinful life on earth without consequences? So it comes back to the question why would God create a world where some people will end up in hell without his intervention? The scriptures are fulfilled in this when it says “what if God desiring to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy. People do not accept this verse due to what they see as unfairness or what seems unjust on Gods part so they will find an interpretation that would fit their bias or preconceived view of God that is they will put him in a box and say things like the Calvinism view is evil etc because in their minds and hearts their standard is higher than God. That if these verses were true then somehow God has failed and so they twist the scripture so that God doesn’t fail, by their standards. God has created what he has created in such a way that his nature and his attributes can be known, his love, holiness, wrath, righteousness are all on display equally balanced, we need only trust He knows better than us what he is doing and do our job which is to preach the gospel message for at the end of the day only the Lord knows who will accept the message and who will reject it but we leave that in his hands and trust him.
The scriptures tell us after judgment day the earth has been renewed and people and the church will once again live on earth with the Lord and how amazing that by that time looking back we have known him intimately but we had to walk through his plan and purpose first.
Both use the critical text so I wouldn’t bother
From my view point Dr White always uses the same straw man that if God allows free will He must not be all knowing. Obviously if God is all knowing, which He is, He can allow free will choices and no all those choices but also know which choice we will make. Mr. White for being as smart as he seems to be, in my opinion is purposefully drawing this view only to support his own lack of support against this view.
That those who fail to comprehend that God is powerful enough that He can know something beforehand without causing it, tend to become Calvinists.
Where in the video (timestamp) did Dr White say (implicitly or explicitly) that “if God allows free will He must not be all knowing”.
The remainder of your comment is unsubstantiated.
@@jp22344 comment never said he did.... Noticed you failed to responed to the premis of the actual point of the comment though because.................
@@atyt11Re-read the first sentence of the original post. If you think he did not claim this, you are being dishonest.
@@jp22344 He may be talking about the other 25 times JW said it, which leads him to believe JW is the Non-accredited PHD of creating and burning down strawmen.
??