James White Growing Up in Rapture Culture, Journey to Postmillennialism, Apologia and Jeff Durbin
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2023
- Dr James White of @AominOrg and Tim Bushong, musician behind the Radio Free Geneva intro, discuss growing up in Dispensational America in the 60's and 70's, watching the rapture film "A Thief In The Night", debating Doug Wilson and the "Sweater Vest Dialogues", moving into leadership at Apologia Church, and the impact Jeff Durbin of @ApologiaStudioshas made in James' life.
I can't get on board with postmil, but I absolute love Dr. White.
When I heard that Christianity started with 12 people and now it has been said 17 to 20 percent of the world population says they are Christians tells me that Postmillennialism is the way to go.
Why?
@@leviwilliams9601because it’s a misunderstanding of scripture lol
@@Matthew-307 I was Dispy for many years but finding it hard to reconcile with scripture I eventually came to the post mil conviction.
I can't really back post-mil, as there seems really nothing in Scripture to back it. However, a lot of the futurist views of "it's just going to get worse and worse" don't pan out either, but for different reasons than why I'm against post-mil. Post-mil seems to think that it will continually get better and better until Christ comes back. But that has NEVER happened in OT history and doesn't seem like it was set to in NT history (or in the future in NT Scripture) either. Also, in OT history, it didn't always get "worse and worse". Maybe very gradually, it did, but there were plenty of revivals and later apostasies. The captivities came after long centuries of these cycles. That said, if the "it'll only get worse and worse" view is held true, we should have had a Vatican dominated world right now, not having a Protestant Reformation or an American Revolution. Sure, things are getting bad again, but we shouldn't have seen any good if this view were true.
Thus, I think that both views teach very bad theology:
Post-mil is likely to lead to compromise with the world to try and get this "perfect Christian world" that they view as needing to precede Christ's return.
Pre-mil dispensationalists, on the other hand, think that it's inevitable that evil will win and so they've been backing away from the culture war and everything else, so convinced that "Jesus's Return is near" and "look up for the Rapture". It's this very attitude that turned me against dispensationalism and pre-Trib Rapturism even BEFORE I'd started to look for biblical evidence against it and indeed, that was what finally got me to look into alternatives, after being taught it for 30 years. I also blame this negative attitude of the Scofield futurists for the apostacy in America, and, indeed, in the West, the last 60 years.
I'm now leaning toward partial preterism with a future 2nd Coming and a literal millennium (there seems to be a Resurrection before this reign begins, and Jesus said that the Resurrection would occur on the "last day", so the premise of what I think is amillennialism is ruined as well, as, like pre-trib rapture, it would require a 2nd Resurrection of the Just, and Scripture just doesn't allow for that.
I agree with Doug. Going Postmil is the most fun change. :D
thank you so much I'm a convinced post mill myself saved while reading a book 'called rays of light' at the age of 28 my Pentecostal brothers thought I was 'nuts' I am now 82 and more convinced that ever thank you both for your input
I love when babies are in the service. A church that's not crying is dying.
BOOM!
Disagree. If I can understand the preacher then the parent needs to go in the back. Period.
To me it's a distraction. And takes my focus off from hearing the Word of God being preached.
@@g.michael3760 - I would say that you need to take 'the long view.'
@@timbushong4387 you reallying think babies will understand the preacher? I wass just arguing about not have babies in church until they can control their own behavior as a child. I do think it's a good idea to have the whole family in church unless the children become a distraction.
Absolutely great! Really loved this.
I am so Grateful for this channel
I could listen to this story many times
hope for our future
Not buying much from James… he’s a believer in a ditch of scholarly stupor- th-cam.com/video/bPJwoWDwGZQ/w-d-xo.html
Left Behind movie - I still have scars. I wish we’d all been ready.
I have had the priviliage of preaching verse by verse through the book of Revelation. Took about two years...almost half of those sermons are spent looking at and understanding the Old testemanet prophets like Daniel, Isaiah, and Zecheriah especially. I can tell you having preached through Revelation, paralleling the words of Christ in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 11, and spending countless hours examing and interpreting dozens of Old Testement prophetic passages, the premil view is the only one (in my humble opinion) that allows for a consistent and marvelously coherent view that ties ALL eschatological passages together, from Isaiah to John. Of all the doctrines Dr White has taught and defended, I am shocked at how little Scripture he uses to defend postmil outside of Psalms 2, 110, and a few other texts...That being said, I love him and cherish his work and have greatly benefited from it. I just don't see how he came to the view he holds with postmil....I would love to hear him give an in depth use of Old Testament passages correlating to NT ones regarding eschatology.
Have you read Gentry's "He Shall Have Dominion?" As a pre-mill, you have the Kingdom as future, and Satan as not yet bound... How do work with Matt. 12, where Jesus binds the strong man, and claims that the kingdom has come upon you; and how do you work with Rev. 1:9 where John is in both the Kingdom and the Tribulation? If John is in both, how is it future to us?
Well said! And I also was and am blessed by our Father through James White. But here it seems to me that he doesn't utilize the same approach to exegesis as he normally does
This was an interview, not an exegesis of Revelation or any other passage.
@@Fetsimo Unfortunately I have also listened to 3 or 4 other videos he has uploaded regarding postmil, and they all lack his normal biblically saturated and exegetical approach when dealing with other topics...I hope he does upload one where he deals with the hard texts like Zech 12, 14...Isaiah 11, 24-27, Ezekiel 34-39 and of course Revelation. I would encourage you to listen to his talk at the Right Response Ministries Conference a few weeks ago. You'll see what we mean
@@evantheorthodox740 I have not read that book, perhaps it might be beneficial for me to add that to my reading list. In answer to your question, I would simply respond that if Satan truly is seized, bound, thrown into a pit, shut up, and sealed, so as "not to deceive the nations any longer" as John records in Revelation, then the non future approach would suggest that its current fulfilment is far less fulfilled then John described...I assure you, the devil is not bound =)
Seems like the postmil reading is the only way to understand the joy of the line from Revelation in the Hallelujah Chorus- “the kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of God and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever.”
They (elite= dark forces that be) are getting ready to implement the 'blue laws'= man-made religious Roman sun-g-dz day as the void sabbath observance (earth rest) on hu'man'ity. (Mark on forehead in defiance)
sWORD Spirit and Truth -- 7th day sAbbAth's Seal -- Covenant IN Loyalty
Yahu'Ah= Spirit= AbbA Creator Father.
Yahu'Sha Hebrew Anointed SonShip= sWORD and Head(ROCK) to body(stones) of congregation covenant loyal (be)living IN earth, that adhere TO His voice: (Yashra'Al)
...The Most High Ahb Yahu'Ah sovereign saves. Emet ❤️
So you don’t think it was ALWAYS the kingdom of God and of His Christ?? Do you even believe in the sovereignty of God??
@@MindyMDoylehave you even ever read Daniel 7? 😂
What is your understanding of the "kingdom of this world" and what is your understanding of the "kingdom of God". I am not entirely sure how you got to that conclusion based on that verse but am open to hearing the exegesis of it.
Wow love beautiful many thanks
beautiful, these guys said nothing!!! where's the tribulation?? where is the man of sin? where is the great falling away? where is the 7 year treaty? th-cam.com/video/bPJwoWDwGZQ/w-d-xo.html
Dr. White and Jeff Durbin saying something like having a Premillennial view makes all who have it sit around and wait for the Rapture is just a strawman argument. As if any person who takes the Premillennial view doesn't take Jesus commandment to occupy until he comes seriously. Or Paul admonishing the Thessalonians to have nothing to do with those who quit work and were waiting for the 2nd coming. I am disappointed in Dr. James White for this.
That's not the overall impression I've gotten from them. In fact they have persistently said that some premillenialists admonish people to live well and persevereve and build things and have hope and call the nations to obey but that the position lacks an ultimate appeal to meaning beyond obedience to God.
Build this thing out of obedience but its going to get crushed vs. Build this thing for obedience and it will preserve in this earth and matter currently and eternally.
It's somewhat akin to how Durbin says atheists live like Christians but don't have an ultimate justification for it.
Whites is off the rails dear brother, th-cam.com/video/bPJwoWDwGZQ/w-d-xo.html. Don't expect to get much from him. Where do they bury the tribulation in all thing rats nest of wackiness?
Yes, such a weak argument. I’ve never met a premil who feels this way. I’d wager there are far, far more premil missionaries than post or amil missionaries sharing the gospel. Such a weak argument!
As a pre-mil*, I view it more like this is a time for compelling others to come and be a citizen of God's kingdom before he destroys all other kingdoms and those in them.
*I've done far less study than I'd like to on eschatology, so my view may change.
@@Tadneikoif you need a reason to obey the Lord beyond obedience itself, then isn’t that a sign that your love for God isn’t what it should be?
Yes cant agree looking at the scriptures but enjoy his insights on other issues...
Great interview. I became Post Mill last year and I cannot tell you how much my spirits have lifted! I wasn't even aware how down the whole pre mill outlook had made me...
What the heck do you guys do with the tribulation?
I agree, me to. I am inspired to fight back now. Fight back with faith in Christ.
@@dantombs5697 They ignore it along with all the other things in scripture that renders post mil impossible to be true
@@christiansoldier77 When did Jesus say the tribulation would happen.. and who was in the tribulation of Rev. 1:9 ? I'll quote it: I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,....... here you have it.. John was in both the Tribulation and the Kingdom... you say we are waiting for both... who do I believe ? I'll go with John.
@@evantheorthodox740 Tribulations and the Great Tribulation are different things. Tribulations is when the world persecutes the saints but the Great Tribulation is when the Antichrist comes to persecute the saints.
I'm pan-mil. There are strengths and weaknesses to all positions though I lean closer to the Amil/Postmil position. God does not reveal everything to us. I've learned much from James White and continue to. I think it's ridiculous the way some get so worked up over it.
Great conversation!!
Excellent show. Agreed with most. Except the comment about metal. Classic Rock Forever. 😁 was drooling over the Guitars
With Toddlers, I'm so thankful for children's ministry. I have a much easier time listening when not trying to calm the littles. I do look forward to them sitting with me when older though. As it is, I'm more engaged, they're more engaged. It seems like a win/win.
Man, Dr. James is the king of getting off track with anecdotes that have nothing to do with what he's talking about. I still love the guy though!
what makes a false teacher? really what ??? th-cam.com/video/bPJwoWDwGZQ/w-d-xo.html. is it only one false teaching? like Calvinism!! two false teachings like Dominion Theology/Latter Rain/Kingdon Now/Post Millennial stuff??? is it his unholy attack on the Holy word of God KJV???
Tell me if your in a ditch telling other people about how good the road feels are you prepared to listen to that driver?
You took the words out of my mouth! Oh my goodness I can not finish this. ADHD indeed
I thoroughly enjoyed listening and would love to hear the sermon on the ascension.
Maybe skip the rotating colors.
Good to be charitable because we win them over with love and kindness. I believe love wins out over everything.
butttttt .... 1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
this a dangerous and twisted teaching, Latter Rain/Kingdon Now/Post Millennial has comes back around like the like the idea of Covid-19 to the Spanish Flu.
The Bible can't be any clear “unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…” (2 Thessalonians 2:3)
or
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
you want more clear and easy to read verse I have a whole bible that James doesn't like full of them. PS. look at where James White is in his Christian Theology, he says God cause Men to do horrific this to Child!!! th-cam.com/video/bPJwoWDwGZQ/w-d-xo.html.
James is already in the ditch, if he's telling the road is good down there, don't buy it, please dear redneck brother.
I think the guy I spoke with (5:22) is the man who does the regular DL intro...sorry about any confusion there. And so cool that we found the "lawnmower scene"!
What is the name of the dividing line intro song?
Hey beloved brothers, sadly a lot in this interview misses tender heartness and heart brokenness regarding brothers and sisters who think wrongly about our fathers words but a lot of looking down on them. Humility must always be the first lesson we have to present when we want people to humiliate themselves before the word of God
Where? What are you talking about specifically?
Amazing how confused u are...
I have heard that postmill believes that the church would establish the kingdom. No it is Christ that established His Kingdom. Help me understand. Thanks.
Correct, on postmil Christ established his kingdom during his earthly ministry. I think many Christian's doubt God's power in the gospel and assume at some point satan will overpower the church, so when postmil speak of God's kingdom continuing to grow, they assume it can only happen if man forces it to happen.
It reveals that they think God isn't powerful enough and man has to show God how it is done, when in reality, Christ is the head of the church, he gave his church a mission, empowered them to carry it out, and as all power in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus already, he is just waiting for his kingdom to spread to every nation and be made his footstool before coming back.
You should interview Dr. Michael Vlach who has written much on the Kingdom and the overarching purposes of God through a premillennial perspective.
Hi five to anyone who has seen the sequels to a thief in the night. Creepy as hell watching those during covid lockdowns. Take the rapture and “chart eschatology” out and you realize they did an amazing job portraying people who were horrified you weren’t joining their covid jab club
Curious about a perspective on Tim Cohen author of Cup of tea with the Antichrist
Anyone know the name of the song at the beginning of the episode?
th-cam.com/video/jtmVHsEgFAs/w-d-xo.html
I have a feeling that Premil/Dispensationalism is on its way out, running out of steam ? I'm happy.
Seems to me that’s very close to what Gamaliel said to the Sanhedrin in Acts 5…….just sayin
You paying attention to current global events at all? I'd double down on studying your understanding of dispensational premillenialism and biblical prophecy in general if I were you 😂
@@KelseyHargroves You Dispensationalist types are always looking for the next anti christ, rapture, Armeggedon etc and I'm tired of it. You allow your imagination to run wild. When this current situation comes to a close , what then ? Dispensationalism is like the charismatic movement: when the so called miracles and revivals fail to manifest in the way we like, what other rabbit can you pull out of the hat ?
Haha, trends come and go. Postmil is currently popular. That alone doesn’t make it correct. 20-30-40 years, or later, it could easily be on its way out.
Agreed. Pre mill has peeked ironically right when Israel is at war.
I was! I was harmed by A Theif I the Night !😂😮
I would like to hear about Jims journey away from a solid Reformed Baptist church to Apologia and his tattoos?
What is the song from the intro?
th-cam.com/video/jtmVHsEgFAs/w-d-xo.html
Dr. James White didn't get old.. He look handsome like 9 years ago when he had a debate with pacwa on Papacy...
I guess I asked for it. I thought I would be hearing Scripture as it relates to Eschatology. Big waste of time. I grew up in the 70's pre Trip / pre Mil and while there were those who tried to nail down a date, it never caused me to doubt the truth of God's Word.
I'm amillennial and I think both postmill and premill have serious systematic problems. I don't see the Church triumphing on earth anywhere in scripture. The Bible says the opposite of that actually. Its all well and good to have a so called "fun" and "optimistic" eschatology but the most important thing is that its based on scripture first.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
Did you listen to the interview? The optimistic view is throughout scripture.
Do you think the Great Commission was given to us by Christ, with him knowing it would fail?
Listen to Jeff Durbin go through Matt 22-24. Listen to Kenneth Gentry and Greg Bahnsen. Watch Bruce Gore as he works through Revelation, or his talk on "Puritan Postmillennialism.
You don't have to agree, and that's fine. But I promise that you'll fully see where and why, exegetically why, Christ's Kingdom triumphs here.
@@sarahd5341 Of course I listened to the interview. The great commission will be accomplished in that the gospel will be preached to every nation, the Bible never promises that Christians will win a carnal victory on earth and convert everyone. Satan is bound so that he cannot stop the preaching of the gospel to Gentiles of every tribe and tongue some will be baptized and regenerated. That's the accomplishment of the great commission. Now while the Church is accomplishing the great commission they are facing harsh persecution and trials. We win a spiritual battle not a carnal one.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
1For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
@@shamuscrawford
Go back to the Great Commission. What did Jesus say was His? Now, why wouldn't He be able to accomplish what He said via the gospel? Seriously, what did He say was His?
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Are gates offensive or defensive?
Is Christ going to return? That's all I want to know...
That's an absolute YES
What the heck do you guys do with the tribulation? No, i think these guys are off base totally
@@dantombs5697 the “tribulation” that Jesus foretold in Matthew 24 was about the destruction of Jerusalem in and leading up to 70 A.D.
@@kylemoore6574 wow that was a quick white wash with the pencil crayon.
You’re talking, the book of revelation, can virtually be narrowed down to the destruction of the temple? The scrolls, the trumpet, the bowls. Right now I’m doing my best to refrain myself from using any harsh remarks about somebody’s intellectual prowess. But it’s safe to say you haven’t convinced me I am not convinced, not in the least.
Seems like they talk about everything except how postmillennialism operates - how do they interpret the book of Revelation?
"When the Man comes around" by Douglas Wilson is a postmil commentary on Revelations
@@philipmurray9796 Where does he bury the tribulation?
@@dantombs5697 Revelation 1:9 and 2:9 are the only places I see the word tribulation, and John says he is a partner in it and that he knows the tribulation the church he is writing to is going through.
Matthew 24:16-20 Jesus says to flee Judea to the mountains to escape the tribulation.
I used to be premil til 2 years ago. So I understand the arguments and emotions. I didn't want to see that these were real warnings and real directions for the direct audience of the letters of that time to escape the soon coming judgement on Israel in ad 70. It wasn't about some future event 2000 plus years in the future. I could no longer ignore the timing indicators like soon, near, this generation, etc. that you find regarding judgement. Yes, there will be a future great white throne judgement, but that will be after the nations are discipled and the gospel of the kingdom takes over... Like yeast in the dough... Like a mustard seed that started small.
@@philipmurray9796 I don’t believe that you could read the Bible and come up with a post millennial view. You have to be taught this.
Matthew 24 is very clear, and as soon as you understand, the prophecies often have a double or triple fulfillment, it gets clear.
Jesus clarified this with John the Baptist. Was he Elijah yes and no it’s a double prophecy.
But how you can simply throw out the tribulation, the rapture first Corinthians 15, the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians, the cosmic event in acts chapter 2 … the only answer is pre-mil
@@dantombs5697 so when the disciples asked Jesus a question, his answer didn't apply to them even though Jesus says "you" many times. The "you" refers not to the disciples that asked the question but to some far off, future generation 2,000 plus years later?
While glad he's PostMil. It's going to take a whole lot of Grace to untie the mess of the last two centuries of Darbian/ziongelical nonsense.
Followed McGee and the Scofield Bible for 10 years. Took a lot of time to come to my senses..
@@rbelf001 no need to put people down, as you are so much closer to the end then they were. Plus, you've got a lot more history on your side and as time passes, we receive a greater revelation and things seem to make sense more.
Dispensational, Premillennial, Pretribulation describes several churches I have been to. I didn't fit into any of them. If you said the wrong thing, you would get stars like a leper had just entered the room. The Christian Cold Shoulder is a way saying you are not one of us. Tolerance and dialogue are not found in these churches.
Well, I wouldn't let a bad church experience sway you from correct doctrine. I know even saved people can be jerks at times. I wouldn't have gotten quite on you, I would have tried to reason it out with you through scripture and listen to your objections. It's how we all learn.
I'm definitely all the things you listed, premillennial, dispensational, pre- tribulational,....AND .........wait for it.........................
King James only 🤣🤣🤣
sorry you had that experience, as the pastor of our church, I have preached and held to the premil view, but have met with and enjoyed fellowship with handfuls of people that are members of our church and hold to amil. Differences in eschatology should never drive us away from each other & create disunity.
@@msandorfi89 ....Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Amos 3:3 KJV
Probably better that he left
Postmil makes a lot of sense in my opinion. I'm used to MacArthur's view and although I've learned a lot from that man, I'm starting to change my mind on the end times. Also, where can I find that song in the beginning of this video??
Here:
th-cam.com/video/jtmVHsEgFAs/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtmVHsEgFAs/w-d-xo.html
What the heck do you guys do with the tribulation??
The post mill and other no mill folks seem to prefer the head in sand approach. 1948, Isreal, all the enemies around, and Paul, and the blessed hope, and the thief in night are all ignored. Blessings
@@dantombs5697 - "THE" tribulation of which you refer (Matt. 24, Mark 13) springs from an understanding of Christ's 'Olivet Discourse,' and we understand it to be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad, when God judges Israel and brought an utter end to the Old Covenant.
Matthew 23:34-36:
“Behold, I am sending you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.” *THIS* generation.
Ken Gentry summarizes this well:
"The very setting in which Christ is delivering the Olivet Discourse is one of impending judgment upon first-century Jerusalem. The great tribulation lies in our past, not in our future. Postmillennialism does have a place for the great tribulation - at the beginning of Christian history, not at the end."
I’m not sure what my view is called but I think it harmonizes every single Eschatological point of contention.
1.) After Jesus died on the cross, he went and proclaimed the gospel to those who had died previously (as Peter tells us).
2.) After his resurrection, Matthew tells us that many of the saints of old were resurrected and appeared to many in Jerusalem. I think this corresponds to Revelation 20’s “first resurrection” group. And perhaps are the ones Jesus preached to while in the grave who came to faith from point #1. Currently Jesus is reining in heaven with those saints.
3.) During the period of time between the Ascension of Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (about 40 years), there was war in Heaven and Satan was defeated and bound for 1000 years.
4.) Thus the millennium began around AD 70 and we are currently living in it.
5.) After the millennium is over, Satan will be released for a little while for one final showdown. There will be a great rebellion and tribulation.
6.) Jesus returns to earth with his angels and gathers the elect and destroys Satan. Everyone who wasn’t resurrected in point #2 will be raised here, the elect to eternal life and the wicked to eternal destruction (lake of fire).
7.) The New Heavens and Earth are created and we all live together with Jesus, the angels, and the rest of the Saints.
Seems to be in the Amil/Postmil camp, and certainly exvludes you from Premillennialism.
Great comment, ty!
You make a lot of sense with this comment. Thank you!
gregmahler , 1) Peter said that Jesus’ flesh was killed but his Spirit was made alive, then he made a proclaimation to spirits in prison who’d disobeyed God in the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:18-20). Peter was talking about the angels who rebelled in Gen 6, and he mentioned them again in 2 Peter 2:4-9.
2) Matt 27 does not say “saints of old” were raised. It says an earthquake opened tombs, and many saints who had “fallen asleep” were raised and appeared to many in the city.
3-7) Only church tradition tells us that Satan was cast down at that time, and when their 1,000-year date-setting prediction failed, they renterpreted “1,000 years” to mean any lenght of time.
They also rearranged God’s timeline in Revelation and allegorizied away the reality of everything that also contradicted their opinions.
Revelation actually shows the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven during the great tribulation, then the second coming, Armageddon, Satan’s imprisonment for 1,000 years, tribulation saints resurrected, _the Millennium,_ Satan released and thrown into the lake of fire, a general resurrection, final judgment. Finally, God creates the New Heavens and New Earth.i
Guys, do you have any recommendation of a degree in eschatology?
Question; for the one's who Know: How much bigger (numerically) is General Equity THEOnomy than Postmil Eschatology? -Not those who dabble in THEOnomy becasue They happen to be consistent, but what would We say the numbers are of those who hold these titles, comaparitvely‽
James is bout as good as you will heAr . And he wont brag on his self will he lol
I think a lot of people are changing their minds based on current events rather than Scripture. Just because our nation is falling apart doesn't mean our eschatology is wrong. I think God set up America so MacArthur could complete his commentaries on the NT and what we have since he finished them is just pure grace. (It's a joke.) MacArthur is very convincing when you hear most of what he teaches. I sat in a couple of classes (eschatology and Thessalonians) by Dick Mayhue in 1982-3 at the Logos Bible Institute (Grace Community Church). He was convincing also. I am still pre-mil and pre-trib. I think Paul wrote his letters to encourage the Thessalonians based on that idea of the rapture. I think Jesus did the same in John 14.
I've been pondering the meaning of Rev 19:7-8. Specifically, v7 the mention of how the bride got ready (past tense). Just like a wedding the bride doesn't take from the time of birth to the time of the wedding to get ready. There is a time to get ready. What does that mean to get ready? I think v8 explains - "righteous acts of the saints". We get our act together. Phil 1:6 is interesting. He will perfect you until the day of Christ Jesus. I think the "you" is plural. So, to get ready, to corporately get our act together, to be perfected or mature, to look like someone that would be a good match with the Bridegroom (like we say of some couples they look good together, - you can't say that about the church and Christ today) - all this can't be more difficult for God to pull off than say the task of leading Israel back into the Promise Land can it? maybe the day will come when men act like men, marriages look like marriages, and nations look like nations (Gen 10:5, Is 13:12-14). Consequently, evil is suppressed like it was when Jesus was here. Consequently, peace comes over the globe like it came over America. But then sudden destruction comes when the Church is looking pretty (1 Thes 5). The Bride is taken, the world collapses, 7 years of judgment begins. yada yada yada. Who knows, but this is how I'm living. Getting ready for a wedding, but I realize I need to keep oil in my lamp.
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, nearly a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
I never really heard much of a defense of the postmill position 😳
??? never heard of the House of Cards??
Paul say this against it in 1 Tim 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"
Christ says this against it Luke 17:26 "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man."
just ask for more verses I have a whole KJV bible😁
@@dantombs5697 Yeah . No one reads the bible anymore. They just read books about the bible lol
@@dantombs5697 LOL, that verse has been applied to a hundred different topics. Can you explain how that verse applies specifically to Postmil? No, you can't.
@@philipmurray9796 Christ also described the last days, like the days of Noah, where the majority of the people were evil, and doing their business, and only eight were saved.. not as close representation of a majority of people that have come to a saving knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ, working wonderful works of righteousness. Sort of like the days of lot.
@@dantombs5697 Correct, just as God told Noah what to do to escape the coming judgement, likewise Christ told his disciples what to do to escape the coming judgement. What did he tell them, flee to the mountains of Judea. Read the parallel passage in Luke 21. Notices Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Throughout the old testament God used other nations to judge Israel. This is the same way. Notice the vengeance and wrath described, as if the surrounding armies are instruments in Jesus' hands for days of vengeance.
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Do you absolutely have to rely on early dating of revelation for postmil to work? Idk why I’m getting hung up ok that.
Yep! It falls apart if you don't predate John's Revelation.
@@flman9684 that’s the part I get hung up on. That and supposedly that position was started by a Jesuit
@@kylesalmon31 Yep, if John wrote Revelation around 85 to 95 A.D. then he would be writing prophecy after the fact and be a liar, so they have to claim that he recieved the Revelation prior to 70 A.D. for their eschatology to work.
I'm unsure about the Jesuit connection? But I firmly believe that our educational system including seminaries have been infiltrated by them. That is why I stick to a plain and literal reading of the KJB. I am certain that this comment will get slammed if anyone other than you reads it. Lol. Oh well, you must stand for something. God bless you friend.
@@kylesalmon31 For the record, I believe that John wrote Revelation AFTER 70 A.D. and I firmly believe in a pre-millennial return of Christ because only Jesus Christ is given authority over the nations to rule and reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. The idea that the church has authority over the nations now is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church has always believed and executed (pun intended)
Post-millenialism is no different IMHO.
@@flman9684 I’m studying the major views on this and the historicist view makes pretty good sense as well, but I haven’t came to a firm conclusion except that I’m not dispensational.
Metal is king - especially Preterist metal! (Sorry, I meant: Jesus is king, but metal truly is the next best thing. 🙂)
With due respect to a teacher and my elder brother, the Bible teaches a pre-mil, but nearly post-jacob's trouble, lifting up of the Bride whilst the wrath is poured out, followed by an earthly return for the Day of Atonements (after the ten Days of Awe) and then the Sukkot kickoff of Y'eshua's rule. Second resurection will be at the end of 1000 years, on the Last Day of Sukkot festivities. Not sure how any other interpretation is possible, at least not one grounded in the Word.
The Feast Days tell us His plan for Salvation, revealed at the Appointed Times.
Amo 3:7 - Surely the Lord GOD does nothing,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.
Blessings to all.
Strange seeing James without the sweater vest. 😉
White says that his dad was a premillennialist and also says that only postmillennialism Is trinitarian..So, was his dad a trinitarian????
James also thinks God causes men to rape kids th-cam.com/video/bPJwoWDwGZQ/w-d-xo.html ...Please don't take these guys as creditable on this or many other christian subjects.
Lol that isn’t what he said. He said he realized the premillennial way of interpreting the text is not the way one interprets the text for doctrines such as the Trinity. What he is referring to is the splitter versus joiner way of reading. To get the “left behind” type of rapture out of Mark 13 (or the other synoptics) one has to split the text up into pre rapture and post rapture sections, and the only way one would think to do that is if they were stuffing items from other texts into Jesus’s lengthy description. Whereas the joiner/amill/postmill reading is to just read Jesus’s discourse as one long connected description with nothing inserted. Which is also the way one reads to arrive at the Trinity. Antitrinitarians read a passage and throw a flag in and say “hey, we have to stop and insert this other text here to override what John 1 or Philippians 2 or Colossians 1 is saying. But just because one holds to a rapture doesn’t mean they see the way they read those passages wouldn’t work if they were examining other doctrines. It’s what Francis Pieper referred to as the happy inconsistency
@@AnUnhappyBusiness thanks for your answered your brother, but you just have to open up Mark 13 and find it’s nowhere close to the amillennialist, Post millennialist view that the tribulation has already happened. It’s so unfathomable these guys need to be drug tested.
I mean, you really have to come up with something incredible because right now it’s an embarrassment of riches on the pre-millennialist side.
@@dantombs5697 one doesn’t have to believe the tribulation is already over to be an amil. That’s just the one version of amil all the people with the charts present. Amil simply means I believe Rev 19 and 20 are different accounts of the same event, that there isn’t a final battle (Rev 19), and then a second final battle (20)
@@AnUnhappyBusiness good point, thanks for the correction
All these "isms." I just want Jesus and I want him bad. Tired of this corrupted flesh.
That sounds dangerously close to another "ism": Gnostism.
That would be called gnosticism.
Who is Jesus to you? Please don’t use doctrine or theology which all of these isms are. They are theological interpretations. How can you describe who Jesus is and why you want Him without theology?
@@Rhantismos23 there’s a lot going on here. For starters I wasn’t attacking anyone or any view. I hate how Christian’s put other Christian’s in “categories.” Jesus asked that we be one like him and the father are one in his prayer. He even spoke about a kingdom divided cannot stand. To answer your question what if I told you I never opened the Bible but that Jesus came to me and revealed himself and my need for him? (Didn’t happen-ish) Which ism would I fall into?
@@stangssoftwash That is really contradictory, humans use categories to describe things otherwise we would be unable to describe anything. Jesus Himself uses categories to describe God, Himself, and His disciples in the Bible, now are you going to tell Jesus that you hate putting people into categories when He does it Himself? Kingdom sounds like a category. You didn't really answer my question at all. I asked you who Jesus is and why you need Him without using theology, categories or any of those things
30 minutes in and I still can't follow James White's talk. He's all over the map talking about one thing and then he's talking about something else. This is so disjointed; his thoughts are disconnected. it's painful to listen to. Done with it.
Good interview with James White. However he said someone who is free will person or basically an Arminian could not understand postmil view on eschatology. I guess he forgot about John Wesley and Wesleyan Methodist. They are postmil and so was John Wesley.
It's pronounced ah-millenial? I would have guessed the a was long. Eschatology showed up in my headspace because I was reading something about the Republicans in the Third Party System after the Civil War being pietistic post millennials while the Northern Democrats were liturgical Lutherans and Roman Catholics. The Southern Democrats were pietistic, but they were salvationist; a term that I am not familiar with. Kevin Phillips' Cousin's War called the divide high church versus low church as opposed to liturgical/pietist.
Isn’t the point of being post mill not being pietistic??
@@esoterico7750 I think that the way Paul Klippner defined pietist was "not liturgical."
Jesus described it would be like during his coming, and I have nothing to do with a perfect out that he’s returning to.
The position presented here is more than optimistic; it also seems asleep. I love J White's ministry, but he is right--he can't know everything. If we are waiting on the world to get better before the Lord Jesus returns, HE WILL NEVER RETURN. When the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith? (Luke 18:8) I started out as a Mid-tribulationist because my first pastor was. Then I began to think Pre-wrath because of folks like Rosenthal. But as I did my own study, I came to the position that I hold, Pre-tribulational, Pre-millennial Rapture. This teaching allows for Israel to return to the focus as God's witness in the world, along with their temple. God has two "people" in the world: His Church and His Nation. While one is on the main track, the other is not. Today, the Church is on the main track and the Nation is waiting in the wings. But, we can't come back with Him (cf. Zechariah 14:5) until we first leave.
Okay I'm half way through the video and still don't know why he is Post mil.
Because he started leaning amil in college due to the influence of a beloved professor and it’s not that big of a jump from amil to postmil, AND postmil is currently trendy
Brethren, I'm a partial open theist and an a-mill, partial preterist...not that I love labels but they are expedient. But I find it peculiar that most "reformed" believers are non- dispensational and yet, they tend to miss the true meaning of Rom 9 13 because they're so focussed on the election thing.
What I mean is this: If you know that God was done with Israel in ad70, you should know that that is precisely what Paul is teaching in Romans, especially 9-11.
Just as Ishmael shadowed Israel and Isaac shadowed Christ, so does Esau shadow Israel and Jacob shadow Christ.
Side note....I like JW when he's not bashing Leighton Flowers.
I like Doug Wilson and all of the reformed Brethren of the various post-mill Gathering fellowships Baptist and Presbyterian groups but James White I think of him as a great guy I think I could meet with him talk with him we probably have a good time but I find his lectures and teachings frankly to be very boring and he can just seemingly like talk forever and I haven't really learned a whole lot where is the others I can listen to one hour go back and listen to it six-times and I can never get enough of the knowledge these Brosnan. Pocess but James White seems to have a hard time imparting knowledge to his hearers but that's just me like I said I think he's a great guy just saying
Serious question: Why is God only sovereign enough to put Christ's enemies under His feet if Calvinism is true - i.e., He meticulously controls every molecule, and unchangably ordains whatsoever comes to pass, including all the sin we commit?
To be honest, I'm not sure what your question has to do with Calvinism as actually confessed in historic Calvinist denominations. For example, you seem to be referencing half of WCF 3.1, but at the same time ignoring that the way God ordains things is such that he establishes human freedom and the liberty and contingency of second causes by what he ordains. If your question is about a theology Calvinists reject, why call it Calvinism?
These guys are so distant from anything I read in the scriptures! Post millennialism is Dominion Theologist and that just sucks. What the heck do they do with the tribulation?
Yeah - what a drag that we are actually commanded to... well, take dominion. Genesis 1:28 is still a positive command.
@@timbushong4387 ya was that before the fall?
@@dantombs5697 - Yes, it was - and the fall didn't change the mandate. It was made more difficult, of course - now it fights back ("Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you...by the sweat of your face You will eat bread"), but that doesn't suspend the command. See Matt. 28 for the re-statement of what it means to take dominion.
@@timbushong4387 revelation 12 is pretty interesting
Preterism
Gonna stick with Pan-Trib and Pan-Mil.
Eclipse over... no rapture
Yes, i agree with that mc arthur had said "we do not create a system to happen, we just interpret the Bible" because you cannot add anything to the bible and say it is. Preachers should only interpret the bible. Tribulation, is yet to come but happening. There is a tribulation in the book of revelation but that is just a big picture of what is happening today. It is tribulaion here on earth, anobody loves tribulation?
There are two subjects that Dr White once vowed to never, ever discuss in public again. One of them was the millennium. The other subject he may not be ready to speak about yet, but it is something that God is passionate about. It has to do with the second of the greatest commandments mentioned by Jesus. It also has a starring role in the parable of the sheep and the goats. No one familiar with scripture can deny that social justice is at the top of God’s priority list. Feeding the poor, defending the fatherless and the widow, visiting those in prison, welcoming the “stranger”. It’s easy to speak mockingly and contemptuously about the subject of “race” and consign it to liberal politics or the woke agenda. However, loving and reconciling with our brothers and sisters in Christ, striving to be of one mind, seeking and granting forgiveness and exercising humility and kindness are all on God’s agenda.
Postmil is wrong because the NT authors expected Yeshua to come shortly or suddenly.
NT authors wrote specifically to rebutt this misconception
There is both. The NT speaks of a sort of coming of Christ on the clouds that would happen so soon that 'this generation' would not pass away before it happened. And it also speaks of a coming in judgement that would take so long to happen that people will wonder if God is delaying his judgement. This latter one is said to happen in 1000 years yet such that 1000 years is like a day to God, so it may be a very long time out while still being a few days in God's perspective.
This is why many people see them as different events. The 'coming on the clouds' symbolism matches the judgement motif commonly used in the OT prophets to indicate that a city or nation would be attacked and so find fulfilment in the events of AD70, and the 1000 years of Peter and John seem to point to Christ's bodily return to esrth on the last day when he judges the nations and commences the eternal state.
I can't think of a more man centered doctrine then Calvinism.
"Most of the world goes to hell but I'm the special elect chosen before creation "
The Bible never means what it says and everything always comes back to knowledge the calvinist has that isn't available to everyone else or described in scripture.
They follow a man’s exalting tradition of John Calvin.
A true Christian trusts God to perfectly convey His Word and that His Word is true.
A true Christian doesn’t need to add "kinds" or "types" at the end of sentences that disagree with Calvinist theology.
A true Christian doesn’t need to declare God has a secret will that contradicts scripture to uphold Reformed theology.
This is the difference between the Bible believer and the Calvinist.
One of the main points of Calvinism is that the elect were predestined to be saved prior to them believing. This would mean that salvation is secured outside of Christ!
So how can a Calvinist who's totally depraved be assured of salvation without relying on totally depraved faculties.
A Calvinist say they are no longer totally depraved.
Ok well how do you know?
The faculties that were at least once totally depraved testify to your new heart?
OK how do you know your totally depraved heart isn't deceiving you?
The Mormon is deceived. Why aren't you? Because of the good things you do?
That's human experience that must be processed by a totally depraved heart with no way of knowing if your heart is changed unless your totally depraved heart tells you it's new.
So how does the totally depraved individual know Christ died for him and he's therefore been unconditionally elected without having to rely on human experience processed with a heart and mind that are totally depraved?
Truth in Love
Isn’t post millennial optimism functioning the same way as a pre-millennial futurism? Both view revel in speculation about the future.
It is my contention that prophecy should be rooted in fulfilled history. Thus, the Protestant history for 350 years held to an evolving version of a Historicist view, meaning Revelation is fulfilled between the first and second coming.
The moving colored background is distracting
"Where's my jello?"
I tend to lean toward Amillennialism.
Post-millennialism just feels a bit worldly, lacking humility as it seems to rely too much on man’s ability. Interestingly enough, the dominion aspect of Post-mil seems to fit perfectly with the American exceptionalism sentiment.
Paul say this against it in 1 Tim 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"
Christ says this against it Luke 17:26 "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man."
just ask for more verses I have a whole KJV bible😁
But Dominion Theology/Latter Rain/Kingdon Now/Post Millennial stuff was like the spanish flu in the 60s-70s now i guess it's Covid-19
@joelblack post mil and amill are clearly wrong . The bible is clearly a premil book.
It is sad that your church makes postmill a belief for membership
People seem to like postmil because it appeals to their "itching ears" but the bible is clearly a premil book . There is no other logical way to understand the bible
Eh, premil seems like a very unnatural reading of scripture, and most texts people point to seen to say the opposite. About the only passage that seems plausibly premil on a first reading is Rev 20, but only if you haven't read the Bible yet and don't know its definition of death and life and assume it only talks about physical death.
Something like the broader postmil (whether historic postmil or amil) always made far more sense from just reading scripture.
@@oracleoftroy How can reading what the scripture actually says not be a natural reading of scripture? Premil is just what the scripture literally says . No need for mental gymnastics like you would need for postmil and amil
@@christiansoldier77Scripture defines its terms, and it doesn't always match the way the world uses terms.
Take death. The first time death is mentioned, it says man will die on the day they eat the fruit. Did they die that day? If death is just physical, then God lied. But if death is primarily spiritual, and physical death is a consequence of the spiritual condition, then they truly did die that day, even if their bodies continued on for several hundred more years.
Now apply that to Ref 20. Sure, if you are a worldly person whose first ever Bible passage is this one, premil is a natural way of understanding it.
But what if we use Biblical categories? Well, the first death is sin, and all of us are dead in our sin. The first resurrection is regeneration where we are made alive in Christ and become a new creature, or born again. Only those who are regenerated escape the second death according to Rev 20, everyone else is sent to the lake of fire. (Read this part carefully as a premil, as the what they usually claim the passage to teach would have most Christians, except the martyrs, end up in the lake of fire.) And those who recieve the second resurrection are those who are glorified and dwell forever with Jesus on a renewed earth.
You wouldn't get this if you just read the Bible as if each chapter was a solo, but when you treat it as one unified story about what the one God is doing in history, premil starts looking very inconsistent. The more one reads the whole scripture in unity, the less plausible premil looks.
I mean, just look at your comments, you just defined premil as 'what the bible says' but you've put in zero effort to show it. It's very convenient when you don't feel that you have to prove your position but everyone else has to.
What version of premil are you claiming is the obvious one? It always seems like for every 10 different premil people, you get 20 different explanations of the system.
Eschatology is the study of what the Bible says is going to happen in the end times.
Not for me.
Postmillenialism sounds a lot like NAR Dominionism. Take over the world and live your best life now.
There is nothing in common with that heretical approach except for the use of the word 'dominion'
NAR Dominionism is totally premil, though.
Sounds unbiblical - like a lack of the bible i know and love.
just 3 verse to consider
2 Thessalonians 2:3 “unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…”
1 Tim 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"
Luke 17:26 "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. "
need more good verses, I have a whole bible James White doesn't like.... PM/Latter Rain/ Kingdom Now Theology should all take a good look at the Dangers of Calvinism - Here's James White in his own words th-cam.com/video/bPJwoWDwGZQ/w-d-xo.html what do you guys think?
Then you are seriously misunderstanding postmill.
whit struggles with reading comprehension, post mill and Calvinism.
After watching this, I don’t find it remotely surprising that he became postmil. Premillennialism was his dad’s belief, not his. In college, according to his own testimony here, he was leaning more amil than anything else, due to the influence of a beloved professor. Not exactly shocking. It’s not THAT big of a leap from amil to postmil. I think it’s disingenuous to in any way say that he converted from premil to postmil, after listening to this.
There's absolutely no rapture position taught in scripture...
Matthew 5
5 Blessed are the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.
Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea no longer is.
2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from YAHWEH, having been prepared as a bride, having been adorned for her Husband. note
3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of YAHWEH is with men! And He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His people, and YAHWEH Himself will be with them as their Elohim. note
4 And YAHWEH will wipe away every tear from their eyes. And death shall be no longer, nor mourning, nor wailing, nor will there be pain any more; for the former things have passed away note. (refs1) xref-2 [xref-1]
5 And the One sitting on the throne said, Behold! I make all things new. And He says to me, Write, because these Words are faithful and true. xref-3 [xref-1]
6 And He said to me, It is done! I am the Aleph and the Tav, the Beginning and the Ending. To the one thirsting, I will freely give of the fountain of the Water of Life. (refs3) xref-6
7 The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be Elohim to him, and he will be the son to Me.
The New Jerusalem in the Kingdom is the dowry from YHWH the Father to His son Yahshua and His bride (Is 62:1-12)
During the millennium YHWH the Father will still be dwelling in heaven and Yahshua Elohim will be dwelling and reigning for Yahweh the Father on the earth in Jerusalem. Then, after the millennium with every enemy being conquered (Ps 110:1-6), the last enemy being death (1 Cor 15:54-55) YHWH the Father will actually come to earth to dwell with His people with Yahshua sitting at His right hand, (Ps 110:1, 1 Cor 15:24-28
2 Peter 3
13 But according to His promise, we look for "New heavens and a new earth," in which righteousness dwells.
Matthew 25
31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy cherubs with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And indeed He will set the sheep off His right, but the goats off the left hand.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Philippians 3
12 Not that I already received or already have been perfected (note) but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Messiah Yahshua.
(Paul is stating that he has not received his reward yet but is waiting for the resurrection and the kingdom of YHWH to come on earth. (2nd coming of Messiah Yahshua)
(The hope of the good news of Yahshua is the resurrection from the dead and eternal life in the Kingdom of YHWH on earth)
(The reward of the saved is earth not heaven. (Gen 15:18, Gen 17:7-8 (refs2)), these great men of faith are sleeping in the earth waiting the resurrection. (Acts 7:60, Joh 11:11, 1 Thes 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51, Eccl 9:5 (refs5))
(The reward of the saved is eternal life on the earth not in heaven, There is a judgment day on earth when Messiah returns and the righteous will be rewarded eternal life and the sinner will burn up completely in the Lake of Fire. (Rev 20:4-6, 13, Rev 5:10, Gen 17:7-8, Heb 9:27, Jer 32:19, 2Cor 5:10 (refs7)).
Revelation 3
12 The one overcoming, I will make him a pillar in the sanctuary of My Elohim, and he shall not go out any more. And I will write the name of My Elohim on him, and the name of the city of My Elohim, the New Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven from My Elohim, and My new name. (refs2) xref-4 [xref-1]