Müller 1902 Prototype Pistol
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Bernhard Müller designed this locked-breech pistol in 1902, seemingly a hybrid of the Luger and P38 (of course, the P38 did not exist at that time). It appears to use a modified Luger magazine and is chambered for the 7.65mm Luger cartridge. The grip is very much Luger-like, in part because the use of a Luger magazine requires using the same grip angle as the Luger. The pistol is a short recoil action with a pivoting locking block much like what the P38 would later use. It is a very comfortable gun in the hand, but was rejected in Swiss pistol trials.
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If there is a day when Ian runs out of intricately machined Middle-European guns, l don't want to see it.
rapture
i love how the ejection port is halfway on the frame and halfway on the slide
This pistol looks amazing. Steampunk cross between a P08 and P38
With a dash of Lahti L-35.
P23
Disassembled that thing looks like a watch. Go figure with the Swiss. But I bet it's a phenomenally performing machine.
Looks remarkably modern when I imagine it without the barrel protruding outside the frame.
As he said, pretty practical and elegant pistol, way ahead of it's time. The complexity, however...
Wow, the craftsmanship of this weapon is mind boggling.
I wonder why he didn't offer the pistol on the commercial market, i know that it was expensive but the action and the build quality would probably attract costumers.
The cost would have only come down to acceptable levels when produced in large quantities, which would have required a military sale before a commercial release could become viable. Besides, Müller probably didn't have a way to pre-finance the production, which would be another reason why he needed that military contract to begin with mass production in the first place...
I don't think costumers buy many guns.
The Swiss & their intricate engineering. I'd guess the pistol is built like a tank though.
More like a clock
Good one.
Like a Mars Pistol.
Generaly swiss military stuff is well built and way overbuilt. And expensive.
Everything from the showels to the rifles is made like that. Hey, even the nails for the horseshoes have a swiss cross stamped on them and an inspection to ensure the specs (I wish I was jonking).
Don't talk about Swiss tanks then... Different game than small arms.. ^^
8:34 Wondering about the odd little doohickey sticking out from the back of the trigger.
A beautiful and really interesting gun!
That "half" ejection port design is awesome!
Is it the same Mueller that designed the 1895 curved recoil pistol?
Yes.
good call on the 1895 - it had escaped me even though I saw this - by now customary - excellent video.
The locking design is actually superior to the Walther. That whole large flat surface on top is what locks into the top of the slide, and the force of recoil goes straight through the block in compression. The two 'ears' are only used for camming. The Walther P38, and other pistols with similar locking design such as the Beretta 92, have the block turned the other way up. The two little ears are used for locking and can be snapped off, so that locking blocks are a major weak point in these later designs.
That was decades ahead of its time in so many little ways. Thanks for bringing it to the attention of everyone!
Really neat. I can see why the Army kept their .38 wheelguns though, The U.S. didn't have the number of watchmakers required to make these.
Ive watched alot of youtube gun videos, but you are the best at showing how guns work. Your also much better than most in how you speak. Good job Ian. Very entertaining and interesting!
Another of the reasons that I like your channel! Back in 1970 the John Wayne movie "Big Jake" had one of his sons carrying a pre-production example of a German semi-auto pistol. In the movie they used a P38 with a few cosmetic details to make it look "older". Now you show me this Muller which looks startlingly like the weapon fixed up for a movie made over 45 years ago! Color me impressed.
I noticed the same thing and wondered if this was the pistol Patrick carried. Didn't know it was a disguised P38. Thanks for sharing.
That thing looks so cool.
fantastic!!! love what you do Ian
Nice looking piece. Thanks for the vid.
Great Review Ian keep up the good Work.
Would be great to see it in Action.
Wow, looking at guns like this puts in perspective how much of a revolution the 1911 was in terms of simplicity and build cost.
love this look of this gun really much
This'd look great in a sci-fi movie or game.
It actually reminds me Fallout 10mm pistol, but with a protruding barrel.
SwineNahNah I see that, however I think the 10mm in fallout is based on an IWI desert eagle
I looks, to me, a little like the pistol that Mal Reynolds had in the Firefly/Serenity series, just with a Luger-type grip rather than the revolver grip.
That had a revolver cylinder and a pump action style forend slide along with a magazine. I think it was actually designed to make no sense as a joke, but I can't be sure.
I agree.
Ian's channel is full of intersting guns, that are cool and reasonable enough to be guns in an alternative world setting and retro-sci-fi but actually working.
Well made gun looks amazeing
I've spent so much of my time watching these videos I could probably manufacture my own gun from a bag of straws
pmcpreston that’s why straws are banned now...
That handgun really looks beautiful to me. It has a good mixture of the Lugers curves and intricate lines.
Fritz Walther was deemed in the appropriate literature, having invented the P 38 locking block. I remember having read, "Fritz Walther was supposedly the most flexible and vivid designer in pistol design of his time."
This Müller Swiss Gun design opens up an entirely new picture of the situation.
Swiss and Swedish? someone didnt know which country was which and made a safe bet and sent it to both, LOL.
What a beautiful gun!
Swiss Gun love! More pls 😀 - I live next to Winterthur, back in ye older days, Winterthur was a major mechanical Manufacturing center. Sadly, most of it is gone now :(
Even after so many excellent presentations from you, I remained amazed that you keep getting your hands on rare-as-hen's teeth century old foreign handguns.
Another rabbit out of the hat.
And I don't think a magician would like to share his tricks ...
This gun looks so nice and looks smooth to operate. Could of been used in WW2 and no one would of questioned it. I bet even in today's standards it would be competitive.
Great video. This firearm may have spawned a whole bunch of firearms. Looks like a real piece of history.
Wow. Again I am blown away by these guns from that era. Too bad it never got into production.
Wow! That is beautiful.
Looks good !
Very interesting that this pistol has left-side ejection.
I actually thought the same. Also a really nice looking pistols I just find it a bit sad that Ian didnt look at the sights a bit, would have wondered how the sight picture of this thing looks like :D
SonsOfLorgar
actually even in WW1 it was common for officers to hold a pistol and a club or a dagger to fight CC in the trenches.
And personally I'd keep the pistol in my left hand to have my strong hand ready to beat down some other dude :D
It was configured to be best used dual wielding along with a luger after felling a german officer
i just saw that the mars automatic is in bf1 awesome i loved the crazy way that gun functions i hope it kicks ass :)
Another sad casualty of the early scrap to win big military contracts in the early 20'th century. Thanks for continuing to bring these gems to light, Ian!
That's a beauty
That locking wedge is also similar to the vz58 locking system.
looks like a really cool pistol, if i seen a photo of it and nothing written beside it, i would have believed it was WW2, not 1902.
Crazy complicated machining, but super easy to strip. The quartermaster would hate the cost, but the soldier would love the ease of cleaning.
It is easy to disassembly, but it looks like a pain to clean. Parts have complex shapes and the ejection "port" leaves the mechanisms exposed. Combined with tightly packed sliding parts this makes the pistol look to be prone to jams.
Overall, this reminds me of the Beretta 92FS (the US military M9 service pistol). Short recoil operation, magazine fed, mainly machined-out construction, a safety lever on the rear of the frame, and a takedown lever on the forward part of the frame. It's arranged differently, with the return spring and guide rod assembly in the upper-rear instead of the lower-front and the magazine release on the base of the grip instead of near the trigger.
Someone should revive this design. It would probably not be terribly difficult or expensive to make now with the advances in computer-controlled milling machines.
I love Swiss engineering
Untill you have to fix something.
I like that it ejects to the left. Great for a lefty not having the hot brass fly across the body.and over the shoulder (hopefully not hitting the head). LOL
When I get piss drunk at night, I will sit and watch like 15 of these videos, and then go to sleep. I cannot explain why I do this.
The Müller pistol - elegant Lamborghini
What the Swedes wanted - an agricultural tractor (= FN 03 GM).
wow that's a lot of machining. Swiss approved.
Id love to see someone make some repros of that.
Christ can you imagine the thought process in volved in making this pistol
I'm surprised that SOMEBODY didn't want these. The simplicity of design ensures a more efficient build rate, the lock mechanism ensures a very safe weapon, it suffers none of the toggle lock reload weakness, the internal rails could show an accuracy equivalent to a Sig P-210. The U.S.' affection for revolvers, perhaps, might account for enough 'reason' to deny it, rather more than too weak a firing pin spring. But then again, how would I know? Love your vids, thanx.
wow that a so cool pistol
I could see someone reproducing them but in 9mm Luger today and they catching on pretty fast. I know I would buy one. 💵
It looks like it fits the aesthetics of the StG 44 very well.
What is this lack of forgotten weapons shirts
It appears that the take down piece also acts as the camming surface the lock piece rides on. If this is the case, it would explain it's complexity as opposed to just using a dowel.
Wow, 2016?? Ian has been filming fireplace collection owner's collection for half a decade AND HE ISN'T DONE YET! Can we get a beer and / or a steak for this secret content benefactor? Thank you, sirs! Keep them coming!
Great video and interesting handgun. What do you think about BF1?
Got to be one of the smartest pistols ever made! What a tragedy it disappeared.So many able inventors at that time,so many advanced opportunities lost!
It seems to fall together reasonably but holy crap that would be expensive with all of that intricacy
It seems like a good firearm, I'm surprised it was rejected so much.
Very cool! What is that cut out on the top of the slide? looks like a mount for something?
Ease of disassembly seems to be inversely proportional to the ease of making it. Still, really neat to see a reasonably modern safety, modern disassembly and modern recoil system in such an old gun - despite the 9001 machining operations required to make it.
yes muller gave up gun making in favor of being a Tintin bad guy
Cool one Ian. I was wondering do you feel that perhaps with a bit more development and or marketing this design could have gone somewhere ?
It certainly looks like a prototype for the P.38, even down to the locking wedge. Karl could have just simplified it a little to meet military requirements and gone into production.
Just because I know you take pride in pronounciation, Mr. McCollum sir - Müller in German would sound closer to "Myller" or even "Miller" than "Mueller".
Cracking video as always!
25 years before the P38....
Wows theres alot of machining on that gun. Even the outside has lots of cut outs in it.
Why does the upper part look so complex? Are those sights, rails for something or just ribs to strengthen the already bulky slide?
Oh, BTW, since yesterday I'm one of your "only a buck a month" patrons. 8D
It looks great for the time its been designed in, but i can only imagine that the need for those locking surfaces and the rails and whatnot to be accurately machined would´ve made this gun really expensive to produce... and hard to produce quickly.
One of the few I have seen that ejects out the left side..
Damn you must get up pretty early to upload these.
You can automate TH-cam releases, and upload them in advance. That's how you can, for example, release videos at both Forgotten Weapons and InRange at the same time - which causes major problems for me because WHICH ONE DO I WATCH FIRST?!
It takes the Swiss to make a two part ejection port ;)
I don't see what makes the locking block drop down so that the slide unlocks from the barrel assembly. In a P38 there is a pin that contacts the frame and pushes the block out of the locked position. I don't see that on this piece and if the locking block is being cammed along a surface in the frame I am not seeing where or how that occurs.
Aren't the bumps on the "disassembly block" what allow the actual locking block to be cammed down, and what hold it up in the locked position?
I'm a bit puzzled by the overall layout.
It ejects spent brass out the left side of the gun, but the controls were obviously designed with a right hand dominant user in mind.
One what types of firearms during what eras do you see patent markings? It's interesting that they're present on some firearms but not all.
This one was very interesting. Outwardly it kind of looks like a Luger and a Walther P-38 thrown together. Anyway, it appears that the locking wedge is supposed to be pinned on that slide assembly thing but I noticed that there wasn't a hole drilled in that part. I guess either it was not quite a finished piece or they figured it didn't need to be pinned in place. Seems like it could possibly have contributed to reliability issues?
I suspect that the hole was for centering to guide the machine that ground the curved pivoting surfaces. Those surfaces are large to withstand the force, a pin as well would be redundant.
I wonder, if German Officers sometimes purchased their own pistols like British ones did, how well would one of these perform in the trenches, since we know the Luger P08 did surprisingly well
In 1902, this is defiantly a wonderful design. I mean, there is a ton of unnecessary machining there, but simply the machining a bit, and I see no reason why that should not had been the big thing in pistol design for that time period. I think this is more viable then the Luger's toggle lock. In fact it is very much an overly complicated P38. That machining sure does give it a distinct look though.
very nice looking pistol one thing would make me wonder about it as a military weapon is it look like it would get full of dirt pretty easy but still quite beautiful weapon.
6:18 Classic Swiss
That split ejection port looks really cool, but I bet it would be horrible in a mud-test :)
I wondered if it was a coincidence that the P38 looks a bit like the Muller 1902. Turns out it was the P38's father.
Does the falling block falls pulled by gravity or is forced by some pin, like the Beretta M9? To me it looks strange that it only relies on gravity, considering all the friction acting on the surface.
Funny some of these old guns really grab me, and make me wish I could have one, mostly because of their looks. This gun, however makes me wish I had one, not because of the looks, because really it is UGLY, but because of the way it works, it is a wonderful design. NOW that earlier gun by the same maker with the curved bolt, that was sheer beauty, and something I would love to have just to show off in a nice glass covered case.
I'd never had the funds to be able to buy and own a gun like that but I can't help but wonder if I did: would I buy that gun? It's so smooth and while it may not be sleek it has charm with all those angles.
This gun looks like it would make a good Star Wars prop, too bad it's too rare for that.
Does the re-cocking bar present a risk of 'bite?'
It seems to eject out the left, I wonder if the designer was left handed? Ejection side isn't a big deal in pistol shooting, just a curious choice when most other self loaders eject out the top or right side.
Damn this thing looks neat. Do want.
Is that some kind of rail for a special sight on top of the slide ?
You'd think that these trials pistols heading to the US would come with a box or two of the highest-quality ammunition available. Not that it'd get used, mind you.
alright ian , i am watching your videos for quite some time now and i have to say your voice and when you dissasemble weapons is really satisfying i dont know why lol you should make a asmr channel :D
No mention that it's intended for left-hand use? Like the Colt Single Action Army, which was intended as a secondary weapon to the cavalry saber.
Kraut space magik
Strange this gun was not adopted by any army...
Federico Masini : It was a wild and crazy time for firearms development. Not terribly surprising that good arms were overlooked or bypassed amidst all the noise.
what's strange about it? Yeah it's a cool gun but there were better options available at the time. Luger and Browning being the two most prominent examples.
Federico Masini if the luger was cheaper to manufacture the US would have adopted it over the 1911. the "best" gun doesn't always win the contract.
Edgar Valencia How exactly is the Luger inferior? It's been proven to be a more reliable system, even in adverse conditions and it only lost out because it was too expensive... And if you actually read up or watched any or Ian's videos, you'd know the Luger *Was too expensive to manufacture in large quantities, so the German Army started trials to replace it for a cheaper service pistol*, it wasn't replaced cause it was bad, quite the opposite it's probably one of the most reliable pistols of all time, but it's also one of the most expensive military handguns ever.
Max Pain Well no. Have you ever seen Ian's videos on the Luger? He's actually done the research, and mud tests, and more. Also, having fired both pistols myself I can tell you the Luger is a lot more reliable (albeit, I have more rounds on it since I actually own it) but it seems to perform better from my experience. Now this isn't to say the P38 is bad, not by any means... But the fact of the matter is, the Luger is a much better fit, tighter toleranced gun and it shows when you actually handle the gun.