Turner Light Rifle Prototype (2nd Model)
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Russell Turner was a gunsmith and inventor in Pennsylvania who submitted a rifle design to the US Light Rifle trials (which would culminate in the adoption of Winchester’s design as the M1 Carbine). Turner’s entry into the first trial was a distinctive piece with a tubular metal stock and hand guard. This was criticized by the testing board, and his followup rifle in the second trial instead used traditional wooden furniture.
Unfortunately for Turner, the ammunition he was initially supplied for his development was loaded with IMR 4227 powder, and the ammunition used in the trials was a second lot made instead with Hercules 2400. While the two lots had the same maximum pressure, they had different burn rates and pressure curves and the trial ammunition did not run reliably in Turner’s rifle. Turner had not bee informed of this change, much to his disgust - he claimed that it would have been simple to adjust his rifle’s gas port location to work with the trials ammunition, and said that the gun ran perfectly with the ammunition he was supplied.
The Turner rifle is a pretty simple and handy design. It uses a long stroke gas piston and a side-locking tilting bolt, somewhat like the Czech ZH-29. It has a very simple trigger mechanism, and weighs in at 5.25 pounds unloaded. The safety copies that of the M1 Garand in operation, and the sights are a simple fixed aperture and front post. Had it not been for the pressure curve issues, it could have potentially been a real contender for adoption in my opinion.
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"Try again....and give it some wooden furniture." Sounds like the U.S. Military during the early 20th Century, alright.
Yep, and fudd gun owners.
all guns should have walnut stocks especially english turkish and american walnut but the actions should be set in titatium chassis for stiffness and the stock gets fitted to that
@@weirdscience8341 why tho aluminum alloy is light and sturdier
Blued steel and wood can’t be beat
@@derick115_1 not comfortable and hurts to use on hot sunny days
Everyone but Winchester had a problem with the ammo at the second trial being loaded with 2400 rather than the powder then in the ammo they were given to develop the rifles. I suspect it might have something to do with Winchester's M1 performing the best in the trials. Winchester knew what kind of ammo would be used in the second trials.
What a sweet little carbine. Note to self: when submitting gas operated arms for trial, make sure they have an adjustable gas valve.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine
An adjustable gas port for trials refined to a fixed gas port for proxuction; for cost savings.
I was not expecting this gun to be so refined in design at first glance. It's a really effective culmination of ideas and designs by what looks like a very underappreciated gun engineer.
A neat little gun, for sure.
I think if it had been adopted back then it would have been improved over time as well - like many other guns.
seems to me Turner knew "the fix was in" when they pulled the powder switch , probably more we don't know
Let me get this right. Turner makes his rifle with one powder, than Winchester changes the powder. Winchester is also making the M1 carbine. Does this not sound fishy.
It's actually not. Winchester entered the competition at the absolute last minute, and won because they had the best design.
M1 would lose confirmed???
another advantage of the carbine is that it uses the same general system as the m1.
train a dude how to headspace an m1....he can probably head space a carbine
Forgotten Weapons
Most government contracts are quid pro quos, not necessarily "best" option.
It's called the military industrial complex system of technological advancement. Effective for a lot of stuff (gettin things done, kinda stuff). But has its weaknesses when it comes to fair and open trials.
For a big nation with a huge military budget (like the US), it will make stuff run smoother, rather than getting stuck in red tape (some army guys and gun company owners talk in the back room before anythings even suggested).
It's funny to think... that back then, a rifle would get disqualified for not having wood furniture. I suppose that today's equivalent would be now-traditional quad-rail handguards vs. slick handguards that can accept rail sections as needed.
It's also a major problem with the more recent Individual Carbine Competition. The tests were conducted with M855A1 but that round was not available to the competitors except in small quantities and under controlled conditions. Instead they had to design and test their guns internally with M855.
All that wasted time and money after cancelling the M4 replacement competition. For some reason the government doesn't want our soldiers to have better guns.
I'm not a big fan of guns, the reason I subscribe to this channel is to see interesting design solutions. This gun is an excellent example of very interesting engineering, it's simple and efficient and very elegant in it's design. It's a shame it had cartridge issues during testing and never got any further than that but I am pleased it's still around so that I got the chance to see it, thanks for that Ian.
You know, there might just be a market for one of these with contemporary furniture and a chambering in 5.56/.223 or x39.
This gun was made for cut aways. Every removed piece, and every layer looks like it was designed to be shown behind a block of acrylic.
That two hook hammer mechanism is usually credited to John Browning, IIRC it appeared in the BAR decades before the Garand rifles.
I guess my question would be, did any competitors get a heads-up as to that powder change?
Would be pretty relevant to performance, I think. Good tip to have.
Pretty neat looking gun! I'd be interested to see a modern version. Of course, that's true for most of the guns you showcase!
bet this would look slicker with a 10 round mag, flush into the well :)
Kevin Collver It reminds me of a single shot, but the model eludes me.
Will keep in mind thanks
@@LoneWolf051 hey, 5 years late, but it'd also look pretty good with a 20rnd straight mag. Certainly it'd look better than that weird part of the m1 carbine where the wood just gets a little smaller, instead of ending.
Damn--- slick, slick little design... *wish i could see that thing fire.
seems like a very pragmatic gun, dissesemly seemed so simple and everything was captive, really well thought out gun
This guy was quite good at machining
Very neat and clever design. Thanks for sharing.
Great work Ian, as always, and thank you for the quality content you create!
Beautiful design. What a wonderful creation from a amazing mind.
It is so amazing to see a piece like this.
I had never seen this rifle and I honestly love it from what I can see here. It looks like a very cool design.
This one was a very interesting. Several very clever ideas were incorporated into this prototype.
Another fine example of why I always look forward to FW videos 👍
I lived in Butler pa my whole life nice local history here
Great Paintball tournaments there at one time as well...
Wait, Winchester made the ammo, then changed the ammo so the pressure curve would be different, and Winchester themselves submitted the rifle that worked and went on to win the trial? Is it possible that Winchester did this on purpose, to sabotage the other entries in the trial?
Yeah, that doesn't pass the smell test.
Knowing how cutthroat gun makers of that time were, and knowing how extra cutthroat Winchester could be... highly likely.
History just hasn't condemned for it them because the M1 was a great gun.
@@planescaped ummm...
Oh no - they would never do this (sarcasm)
No good sir, how dare you impugn the motives of those who are good merchants of war.
Holy crap that thing’s all metal variant hand gaurd looked so modern!
You guys show the coolest guns
That seems like a decent design. Thanks for showing it to use Ian.
That's a cute little gun ! ! !
It's such a shame there aren't more out there... Thanks 🙂😎👍
That's sweet. Guy had some brains
I've lived in Butler, Pennsylvania and have never heard of this before. Isn't first time Butler got hosed by the military. Look at the Jeep contract. It was invented here but Willys got the contract.
Very clever design i really like this little gun.
Hyde & Turner both made some really interesting rifles.
It's a shame they didn't see some type of commercial success after the trials.
They might actually be around for us to be able to handle or even own instead of just seeing in videos.
The machining is really nice on it.
Beautifully simple design, but that looks like a LOT of machining work. I feel like it would be common sense to include an adjustable gas port in a prototype like this though. Something as simple as a screw that partially blocks a passage could have meant Turner won instead of Winchester.
This looks like such a nice and handy little carbine. It would make a great ranch rifle I'm sure.
That was actually a really cool piece. The thought behind this rifle is quite apparent. Not quite as elegant as the Winchester, but functional.
That poor little trigger return spring looked like it was having a rough day though
Shame there isn't a production version for testing, that looks like it would do very nicely in an InRange TV Mud Test!
I used to have to go the library or do extensive online searches to learn about these. the internet is just bot the same as the books unless you know what the name is and from what country you can find info but anything and everything is @ the library but I wouldn't know what to look for online .but thanks to Ian I can sit back and even see its operation and take down I'm learning about the history of firearms and
Ian is my teacher... One thing I could suggest and I'm sure it's not easy but try to get the ammunition to show the audience that would be cool cause I've heard there are some weird ones
It´s Another what if, in the World of military guns.
Oh goody, another batch of RIA videos!
Yet another interesting design I'd like to see made today.
a pretty slick design. id love to see it in action at the range.
I live in PA, I'm about 45 min to an hour from where Turner lived
'Try it again and give it some wood'😂😂 great video !!
Interesting indeed! Thanks Ian :)
I actually really like the look of this gun, if it was actually as reliable as Turner said I'd love to own one
Pretty interesting concept.
I never heard Ian say a gun was so slick before. It does have so many user friendly features, but must have been a proper bugger to make.
Where the hell do you get those strong pen lids from? The pocket clip on every pen lid I've had just snaps off as soon as I apply a teeny bit of pressure.
its a cap to the old school round barrel BIC's
Your local bank often has free ones. ;-D
turner, white, Johnson, and John Anderson just a few names on the list of people us government testing has pissed off no doubt lol
Don't forget Lewis.
Well I find this new mini series very cool
Hey Ian, do you think that the fact that the gun is lop sided would have had any impact on troops approval of it, if it had ran well in trials and got to troop testing? Love all your work man!
I am very impressed with this rifle, I really wish there was a modern production of it that I could buy.
That is more of an Auto-5 trigger, with the fixed disconnector hook and the safety function, as opposed to the independent pivoting disconnector and safety on the m1 garand.
That's a cool one
not sure if it had validation or not but I was told a man who claimed they worked for Winchester during the time changed the gunpowder to secure the m1 carbine as the rifle of choice it sounded believable because of the company sales would had been major profitable
Turner designed a gorgeous rifle
Reminds me of a mini Remington model 8.35
Butler PA? Im about 15 minutes from there holy crap
The weapon's ammunition changes and screws with a good design? Where have I heard this before
Hey, have you guys ever come across a Walther WA2000?
I know they are extremely rare in the USA, but it would be neat if you guys could disassemble one on camera.
I know you did a video on the M3 Carbine, but are you ever going to do a full length video on the M1 or M2 Carbine?
Hey Ian, quick question. Do you or did you ever get nervous handling such expensive and rare weapons? And what is the most expensive piece you have ever handled?
What a sweetly designed and engineered rifle. Shame he was stitched up with the Ammo change. I wonder if he realised this might have been deliberate, so he was put off trying again.
Am I the only one who hasn't been getting notifications when full 30 vids are up lately?
I’m here for the side locking bolts
Wat. I live super close to Butler PA =D. It's a shithole nowadays but it's good to know something neat came out of that town.
Thats pretty cool local history for me.
Too bad Turner didn't go ahead with commercial versions in 32 and 351 WSL, then return to .30 Carbine once the ammo issue was ironed out. . We'd have been rebarreling them to 9mm Magnum a couple decades later. Hmm, beefed up and with an AR-length magazine this would be good with 300BK, 350 Legend and 450 BM...
An impressive design...
That looks like it would be a good pick-up gun
Since it had a side locking action, was the barrel at an angle to the sights like on the ZH-29?
Kinda makes you wonder if there wasn't something crooked about the fact that the ammo was changed and the winchester gun came out on top
Not one to get 'attracted' to guns, but that really is nice to look at!
never seen so much rough machining/mill marks on a receiver before. not that it truly matters, it is a cosmetic thing.
As a fan of the M1 Carbine.........the Turner is really cool!!!
When are you going to release the Collier Revolver Rifle video? I'm so excited for that.
It's already up on Full30...www.full30.com/video/007209576f7078b7a6365c7e0356cf98
Forgotten Weapons Senpai Gun Jesus noticed me!
Forgotten Weapons Also, thanks for the update. Much appreciated.
I find these designers to be so amazing. today's world I'm afraid has lost all originality some might say firearms design has hit its apex but I don't think so I think designers just got lazy and only concerned with new bits of plastic to put on guns.
It's more consumer complacency than design originality.
"Why should I buy X when I could build Y AR-15s for that price!?" And so every time you turn around everyone and their uncle's grandma's second cousin's girlfriend's dog's chew toy's manufacturer's granddaughter's assistant manager's goldfish has a new AR-15 to sell.
dustyak79 it comes down to rate of fire and reliability. I think after 100+ years of semi auto gun innovation, we're at a point where we've come as far as the ATF will let us.
Butler,PA also contributed the "Jeep" to the war effort.
Nice rifle. I wonder why he did not turn the gas system so that the action would lock up or down. I guess I just have a thing for keeping the action on one plain, ha.
As Kenny has just pointed out: Stitch up. If he had adjusted the gas port they would have changed the powder on him again.
Ian! Will you chime in on your experience with the reliability of the M1 carbine???
Newest BF1 DLC rifle
"i know it makes no sense, neither does the game" - Dice
you can swallow your pride and get your gun adopted or you can be indignant and forgotten
From how long ago are these recorded before you upload these auction videos?
This looks like it would be a cool hunting carbine if it had a scope, but I would never dream of slapping aftermarket stuff on a old trials gun...
I was always an M1 Carbine hater. Everyone I handled was just a malfunction machine. Well, I may have to walk that back. I have since found out that Audie Murphy carried the M1 Carbine as his preferred weapon. Did he have the only one that actually worked? Because it clearly worked if he used it...man did it work for him.
worn m1 extractors can be a problem.
my experience with m1s is very good.
Even my Universal which I have been told is crap runs fine as long as the ammo and magazines are good.
AbitNutz my carbine runs almost flawlessly, it all depends in how worn your parts are, and above all, the ammo you're using
I love the simplicity of this design! Too bad it didn't have an adjustable gas block.
If the semiauto catch sear got filed off or severely worn out, would it fire full auto or just have the hammer decocking most of the time?
That style normally would just decock though a double fire might be possible.
Mr Turner was obviously very handy with a Lathe and a Milling machine did he come up with any other designs.
Winchester produced the ammo changed it in between and won the trails with there gun?
In my opinion this stinks a little! :D
Jameson Sloan
Doesn't mean he's wrong.
Jameson Sloan Sry I'm German, and wrote this as it came in my mind. I do not think in English ;)
i was thinking the same thing. it seems like the weapon was sabotaged on purpose.
Wnchester didn't "win" shit and never produced an "M1 Carbine". Winchester ended up being one of the manufacturers of the "M1 Garand" (I'm using quotes because officially at the U.S. government level neither gun actually exists as a military firearm) and it was IBM, Rock-O-La and a few others that produced the carbines. And since the "M1 Carbine" was clearly and obviously and admittedly based on the M1 Garand and Winchester "designed it" in 13 days despite having a long history of PURCHASING its firearms designs with very little in-house design and engineering expertise and capability of its own, I seriously doubt Winchester made much money off licensing, royalties, etc.
Epecially since it was a government defense contractor already, the U.S. government funded all the research and development INCLUDING that of the M1 Garand it was based on and the Garand itself was government property because John Garand was U.S. government employee at Springfield Armory when he designed it. Or rather did his job as an engineer and sat down with a list of requirements for a new rifle and with the help of others started brainstorming, scheming and sketching and utiliized all the successes and failures of other guns and gunmakers before to finally come up with a workable concept that didn't violate any existing patents but met the basic criteria.
And Winchester, which was probably the largest and wealthiest firearms manufacturer in the world at the time with tens of millions guns sold all over the world and billions of rounds of ammunition sold and already having a HUGE number of patented or otherwise legally protected and proprietary firearms, cartridges and other technologies, just HAD TO HAVE that big payday and was willing to risk complete corporate destruction and the executives were willing to risk treason charges during a war to get it.
Yeah. RIght, That's likely. And it all relied on that ammunition you idiots think Winchester was able to somehow alter secretly but oddly decided to use a COMPETITOR'S POWDER (Winchester also didn't make powder then and doesn't know but instead contracts the production of its powders to other companies to its spec and then puts its name on the containers) to do so. Because Winchester just somehow knew that only the OTHER gun would be affected. Despite the fact that MILITARY PERSONNEL were conducting the actual trials. And the fact that there is a REASON for CONTRACTS and SPECIFICATIONS and that if someone specifies something you produce under contract, you'd damn well better produce it to spec because they're going to CHECK.
Of course its also really unlikely that the military, which had to have contracted for the "1st production run" since IMR (Improved Military Rifle - several powders developed BY the U.S. government FOR the U.S. military rifle cartridges that were designed from the beginning for smokeless powder and numbering at least half a dozen by that point in time) would have cotracted for TWO production runs of EXPERIMENTAL AMMUNITION for a CARBINE THAT HADN"T BEEN CHOSEN YET but wouldn't notice or test for the 2nd production lot being consistent with the first.
@@chadmeyer9500
How is the pay at Winchester?
a very nice rifle, shame it didn't make it into production...
I think the reason why there’s one or more of them I think is because he had to make a certain number them for trials Probably 5 to 10 I think Nice survival rifle
probably the only good thing to EVER come out of Butler PA
nope. There have also been a couple slot car national championships held there.
Also the best steak and cheese I have had came not from philly but a farmers market in butler.
It turns out you don't need to follow the qualifications/specs given by the military. During WWII the military approached Harley Davidson and Indian about building them a bike and one of the specs was that it be a 500cc twin. Indian built a 500cc engine like the specs said but Harley cheated and made a 750cc engine and was awarded the contract. That basically was the death knell for Indian. Harley and Indian were the only two surviving motorcycle manufacturers coming out of the depression and still trying to get on their feet when this contract came up. It saved Harley Davidson and basically put Indian out of business.
By the way the Indians they make today have no relationship/lineage to the original company. Hell they even use Harley clone engines.
That is what you get going with minimum specification. Harley Davidson didn't cheat they just exceeded the requirements.
Didn’t Harley Davidson end up making BMW clones for wwii?
@@jameswhitaker1324, Yes the Harley Davidson XA as I recall. I think production numbers were kind of low, maybe less than 1000 built but not sure. Indian made one also along with a Moto Guzzi style engine called the 841. I've only ever seen one 841 not sure how many were produced.
Just when i thought i was going to bed! Ian strikes again.
PS: it's quite interesting how the parts in this gun serve multiple purposes, shows a lot of ingenuity. as example the physical firing pin safety, the link serves as the method for locking the bolt in battery AND making the firing pin 100% safe. quite compact and smart. how heavy was that gun?
I doubt it weighed more than five or six pounds. Maybe even less.
My question is how much did it weigh? Perhaps somebody I know can modify and recreate it.
I love this gun. A bunch of clever yet simple elements. This would have been a worthy carbine if the Winchester hadn’t won.