Pakistan: The Roads Not Taken | Shehzad Ghias Shaikh
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ธ.ค. 2023
- Let’s discuss the alternative paths, and pivotal moments that could have shaped the nation’s destiny. Join us for an illuminating exploration of the roads less or not traveled in Pakistan’s complex history.
About the Speaker:
Shehzad Ghias Shaikh is a distinguished alum of LUMS and a Fulbright Scholar, holding a Master’s degree in Theatre History from Brooklyn College, New York. Renowned for his insightful perspectives, Shehzad is the engaging host of the widely acclaimed podcast, The Pakistan Experience.
He narrated the story ‘half baked’ about Jinnah’s proposing ‘Sikh’s’ to join ‘Pakistan’ but let me tell you what happened after that one of the worst ‘massacres’ of ‘Sikhs’ was done by ‘Jinnah’s Muslim League’ in Thoha Khalsa village in Rawalpindi in March 1947 because ‘Sikhs’ refused to be part of ‘Pakistan’. 200+ Sikhs were ‘butchered’ with ‘80+ ladies’ committing ‘suicide’ by jumping into a well.
As an Indian Sikh, both of who's grandfathers were forced to move from Pakistan to India during the partition and leave everything behind, I can tell you that I'm eternally grateful to them that they made that decision. Jinnah was a conman, who while preaching secularism never did or even say anything to protect the Sikhs or Hindus who were being murdered in West Pakistan. Contrast that with Gandhi, Nehru, Patel and other Indian leaders who went to places where Muslims were in danger and made sure that they were not harmed. That's the difference between Pakistan & India.
India may be in religious path now, Indians have capacity to auto-update themselves. We have been a secular and multiculture and we all celebrate it. South Asian countries are deep in crisis in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Bangladesh, Nepal, Myanmar except Bhutan. These countries have religious, military coup. Only India is vibrant democracy, constitutional democracy, diverse, multi cultural, multi-religious, regional diverse, multi language. We celebrate it. We love thriving India.
Dear 'Black Hole', from next episode, can you please identify the person (s) who draw the art on the black board? They do a wonderful job. A small font of their name in the corner will also be good to recognize them.
The problem with Pakistanis not Indian Muslims is that they think if India becomes Hindu state all the other religions will lose their freedom but Muslims in india very well know the mentality of Hindus that Hindus are in themselves in their existence secular..our mindset is secular we only want other communities to respect our culture and country at most .. do what u want with your religion for us all religions are equal if u respect our culture we will consider u equal to every other Indian ..
*Biggest DrawBack when Pakistanis speak about india is they never been to india, they just read some leftist magazines. Pakistanis just repeat that with variations.* India & the Path India is taken is not some outcome of some 10-15 yrs, but is a natural discourse unfolding which would be expected based on the history, india will find the right balance and place when it will regain the original strength & values, in coherence with Wodern times.
When the world is discussing about AI, Pakistan is still discussing about its two nation theory and how it came into existence
" muze gayab honeka shauk nahi " reflects everything about Baluchi people's freedom of expression.
What is the relevance of the 2 nation theory and South Asian Muslim nationalism in 2023 when 60% of South Asian Muslims live in India and Bangladesh? This country needs to re-imagine itself as Hussain Haqqani wrote in his book.
Each and every educated ultra intellectual has same things to say :
1. Creation of Pakistan, qaid e azam bla bla bla
2. Worries about India's secularism and future
3. Never ever uttering a word about the real "issue" of Pakistan, the peaceful religion and it's teachings.
India is not a Nation State based on imagined communities having one language, culture etc,
India or Bharat is a Civilizational State which always had different ideas, langauges, culture coexisting in it while all see themselves as Bhartiya.
Under the influence of indian left, pakistanis have developed a notion that nehru was the only indian leader. He was behind all the decission, behind constitution, behind the fedral structure. They should try and read about sardar patel, ambedkar, etc. Congress in 1947 was not the party of nehru but a party of which nehru was a part which mind you also included people from sociliest sides like morarji desai and nationaliest side like shayama prasad mukharji. They later parted away when the entire democratic system was estabilished. Nehru then kept winning because of prestige which congress party holded for its role in independence. However not everyone in congress before 1950 or 52 was a nehruvian. They were communiest, socialist, nationaliest, hindutva people etc.
Not only that Jinnah didn't criticise massacres of Sikhs amd Hindus in Rawalpindi, and that of Hindus in Calcutta ( Direct Action Day ) , he conspired with Muslim hooligans to do that violence as a stated strategy for "creation of Pakistan"
Basic problems of
1. It was never a democracy
2. Over population which nobody talks about.
3. Education system is rotten.
4. Islamic radicalization from the schools.
5. Military dictatorship.
Solutions:-
1. Stop this nonsense of Pan- Islamic nationalism, it's not helping Muslim's anywhere in the world. You will see more and more right wing leaders all around the world and it won't be good for you people. Palestinians se hamara rishta kya... la ilaah illah lah, Palestinians don't speak your language there are 50+ Islamic countries and nobody takes them as refugees , you yourself kicked out Afghans because you know better why and nobody speaks about Uyghurs ? But China is all weather friend whose friendship is taller than Himalaya and deeper than the ocean. Point is basically it's a facade and political tool so I believe every human being keep there faith to themselves rather than becoming a Momin for there respective religion.
2. Keep military, state and non state actors aside.
3. Forget Kashmir 😂😂 and stop worrying about Indian Muslim's. We have second largest population of the Muslim's in the world which was 5 crores in 1947 and now it's 20 crores. So stop this nonsense for once and all.
3. Crack down all the terrorist camps,stop spreading hatred against minorities.
4. Focus on good rational education rather than teaching hatred.
5. Bring democracy if that's possible 😂😂😂.
6. Atleast have guts to acknowledge that your forefathers were Hindus and not the Mohammad Bin Qasim don't know who gave Qasim the Aadhar card of Pakistan😂😂.
7. Go for political stability atleast selected PM toh tenure poora kare apna😂😂.
When Jinnah mentioned hindus and muslims are 2 different nations and they are completely different people, what does it mean when he asks sikhs to join pakistan ...? The moment pakistan was formed, its history was written.... minorities obviously could not be equals. Those minorities included religion, ethnicities and thats why pakistan is where it is.
India has always been secular ( even before independence ) and thats becaus hinduism is open and welcoming.
Im a great admirer of Shehzad and I listen to him regularly on his channel (from India/US) though I dont always agree with his opinions about hindus/India. It's OK, he hasn't been there. The Black Hole is one of the best talks I have heard, thanks to Parvez Hoodbhoy and the guests he brings to his show. In his case too, I overlook his comments on India because though he is a very learned man, he is not so sharp on his history.
In India lok sabhas. Elected in 1967, 1977,1989,1996,1998,1999, were dissolved prematurely due to political instability, but system continued
Shehzad is one of the best podcaster...I love his way of engaging audience and guests in conversation...
What's Pakistani identity. If you can answer. This debate will be closed 😊
Similar question can be asked about "Hindu" or "Indian" identity which are Western words.
Point is societies are complex and have complex identities. Everyone should try to have a more inclusive society - thats the ideal.
Your comment shows your education and class
He just going wandering on different points but not exactly telling what is idea of pakistan
It changes every few years i think
initially until the 60s it was 5000 years of Pakistan civilization
from the 60s till late 70s it was Persian culture
from 70s till imran Khan it was Arab culture
from imran Khan era it was Ertugrul who birthed Pakistani culture
Not only this debate but also Black Hole.
Thank heavens that we Indians are not going back to Nehru. It was the Nehru-Gandhi family congress which led us to a disastrous economy until 1991, not to forget the muslim appeasement for furthering their own political goals. Nehru-Gandhi family congress never spoke of Parsis, Buddhists, Jews etc as a religious minority since they were not a vote bank, not to forget what the Nehru-Gandhi family congress did to the Sikhs.
Its so damn funny to see these bloody pakistanis singing praises these last few years for Nehru-Gandhi family congress and also Atal Ji. We can recall what pakistan did to India under them. 1948, 1965, 1971, 1999, parliament attack, 26/11 etc. Indian political history didn't begin in 2014. We Indians just turned the page and changed our chapter. pakistanis who have never had anything to do with Democracy, don't understand the concept of inclusivity are lecturing us Indians for choosing our future our way Democratically. Reason why pakistan is a failed state with a permanent kashkol and not an pinch of democracy.
Shahzad, enjoyed the show. You, Dr. Hoodboy and Shakil Chowdhary are my favourite Pakistani TH-camrs.
In India, we Hindus, are basically secular. Secularism need not be imposed on us from top. No matter whether it’s BJP or Congress no regime can shake the foundations of our this quality.
Even amongst BJP majority is not against Muslims. People now like BJP not because it’s against any community but because Modi is doing a great job of lifting India high which no one had imagined in their dreams 15 years ago.
In 2:05:36 religion is not as important to Hindus as it is to the muslims in Pakistan and even in India.
In India educated new generation is very concious now to whom to vote. The social media is giving immense information. So no politicians or religious leaders can fool the common people. Instead of comparing with India, Pakistan should have political stability first. India is going to be world's 3rd economy in few years.
In any case, the question for Pakistanis today is - what paths are really open to Pakistan right now, and which one should they take?
How come any talk on Black Hole has around 700 watchers?
Shows something
I will like to correct the Rawalpindi fellow on Master Tara Singh. He did not want a seprate nation of Punjab he wanted a seprate state of Punjab ***within** India not different from it. Which he ultimately got later he also wanted American style Federalism which he did not got, You can debate his assertion or practicality of american style federalism in India but you cant call him a seccesionist
I thoroughly enjoyed listed to Shehzad Ghias, very interesting talk.. i am glad he is there. always loved to listed to his thoughts.
Chandragupta and Ashoka not taught in pakistan 🤪🤪
Pakistani first has to learn RIGHT HISTORY,
EK THA RAJA OR EK THI RANI ,,,,,,END OF THE STORY OF PAKISTAN.
2:05:47 this guy made very good point when I found muzamil in beginning shahzad's podcast was one of the few places where he appeared and spoke in depth. Of course there were videos of him here and there, but if you truly wanted to hear him you'd come to his podcast.
Bhai saab
Gram panchayat was there before britishers came to india ( yes , INDIA / BHARAT)
COLUMBUS WAS LOOKING FOR NATION CALLED INDIA in 1492. Almost 300 yrs before british were on indian soil.
Shehzad Ghias sahib has the guts to call spade a spade and not twist the truth to make it appealing to the Elites. Thank you sir.
We need a few more thinking young men like Shehzad Ghias!❤
A beautiful talk to think of.,please.
Shehzad Ghias is one of my favourite TH-camrs. I always learn something new from his podcasts. His choice of guests and questions is always pertinent and eye opening. And his sense of humour is very intelligent and genuinely funny
Boya Ped Babool Ka
Aam kahan se Hoye
I might offend some Pakistanis and Pls don't delete my comment
We claim that there is something wrong with you, because long traditions of repeated first and second cousin marriges in your community
That's it
Very candid discussion. Appreciated.
Great dialogue Black Hole and Shehzad/TPE. Thank you so much.
First time seeing full house
Thank you for the partition Nehru and Jinnah.... Best wishes to Pakistan, we are not the same, thankfully 🙏
Why your story begins only after Mughals , dint India not exist before Mughals or before profit Mohd , this is exactly the problem in Pakistan even the so called educated class don’t want to talk before Mughals, be open & accept your blood is Indian & not Mughals , the day u accept the truth Pakistan will liberate
This shows majority of viewers are Indians, it means You understand the education level of Pakistan...
Sab India se hi dekh rahe ho ge
Been a while since I've heard shehzad. Man still as captivating. Great discussion.
You should tell your friend S. Muzzamil to stop quoting western philosophers and stick to the local .There is plenty to go around. No need to impress people with foreign names.
Love u son. How can anybody be so correct.? You are a real scholar as you talk about all aspects and not just one Bravo❤❤
Good to see Shehzad here
Black hole is a super good platform..always having good debates ... congratulations and keep up the good work . ... I also want to appreciate the hands which draw the black board behind the speaker ..nice to see Shehzad out of his Studio and become part of this discussion!
Shezad ,l watched you first time l did not recognise your tremendous talent.Over the time l realised the truth that you are many notches above the other intellectuals .Hats off to you 💝 Mr Pervez Hoodboy remained silent as he was totally sure about your intelligence and intellectual capabilities ❤❤
ماشاءاللہ شہزادہ سلامت رہو سائیں ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
My conclusion is that Pakistan is a failed idea that was bound to become a failed state. The only good news out of this is Bangladesh. If Bangladesh has done better without Pakistan then it would be also good for the people of Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan and Pushtunistan to thrive and excel without Pakistan. For people who are so called Pakistanis to thrive..then Pakistan needs to stop existing.
Nice to listen to Sehzad here.
52:08 I am thankful to you for touching 'Direct Action Day'.
Excellent talk
Marvellous presentation, thanks a lot.
8:31 are bhi update Karo black board see digital screen,Naya kuche karo gee too Naya pen ayega.
I have been hearimg same kind of analysis coming from Pakistan since 2008. Thats my earliest memory of TH-cam and brush with thinkers/intellectuals of Pakistan.
Same analysis, no change on ground.
Sad, But true.
Anyway much appreciated .. your effort is.
Very well spoken Shehzad sb 👍👍👍
Salam, good talk. Shehzad brought a good mix of serious topics with a touch of humour.
Very good talk
Excellent.
Well, if you don't like Indian trolls stop directly or indirectly mentioning or hinting about India. Even when things are grudgingly acknowledged the inbuilt hatred, jealousy and envy seeps through which you may not realise.
So be prepared to receive on an open platform as good as you give.
Sheikhooo the great 👏
Sir, quite a cluttered lecture but with good intentions. An additional comment.
Islam created Pakistan but could not reconcile regional aspirations of just 4 provinces.
This is Happening after 75 years 😢😢
Great session really Welldone Blackhole and Shehzad
Good to see atleast hall is full👍
Yes it is very rarely in very important topics too.
When it comes to most Pakistani's speaker ....somehow it's all about only Muslim....I have not seen any prosperous country which is not secular...for long....it's all about building human capital on scientific values....
The story of islamabad is same here in Deheadun, siliguri, and countless cities in india.
*First Disparity in Speaker's Argument* : He gave Example of South africa apartheid, positive discrimination which is *an example of course correction, with Truth and Reconciliation, identify the wrong and take action to correct it going forward.* But when Question comes about the False Identity created for Pakistan, he doesn't say course correct it, adopt truth & Reconciliation undo the injustices done with various ethno-religious identities & rights, but he falls short & say Don't need to define any identity, let it be, let people take their direction, *which is basically saying Mitti pao in Punjabi*
such people are required for pakistan.
Why worry about India's secularism when your country don't believe in it..?
Was waiting for shakeel chaudhary to ask question
When will Pakistanis stop bringing India in everything Pakistani have a problem with and comparing India's flaws with Pakistan? The day Pakistan idenfiy itself as an independent country and dont dwell in partition like they always do, probably things will change for good for them.
Comments show How many Muslim are interested in Learning 😢😢
So oct 7 ko jo hua uski justification ye h ki Israel 75 saal se wha h toh Kashmiri Hindus can also the same with Muslims in Kashmir?
I wish i was there😊
TBH, in India secularism is completely one sided. Minority wants Sharia and Majority is supposed to be secular. We are fed up with this. India should NEVER have been secular at all. We should have declared to be a Hindu state right in 1947, and be done with it. Perhaps its 76 years late, better today than never. If Pakistanis are concerned, they are free to give Indian Muslims citizenship instead of crying crocodile tears. Also send all of your non muslims to India. We'll be happy to offer them citizenship.
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50:20 very well said Shehzad, "zaruri nhi hr mulk ka nazarya ho" 👏
Root of culture in India is for sure Sanskrit and all other indegenous languages from Kashmir to Kanyakumari
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What a scholarly discussion
Rarely you see such view point in the subcontinent
V good vlog. Truth being told.
Shehzad, heart is in the right place. But you need to acquaint yourself with Bharat better. Your idea of India is seemingly limited to his study of Indian media and interaction with self-proclaimed liberals. Come and visit Bharat and it might open up your eyes and mind to the reality of Bharat. Kudos to you for always being forthright.
And we need to remain separate. We do not need radicals or moderate Muslims from Pakistan who condone violence with their silence. Thank you, Jinnah and Gandhi.
We educated Indians will keep voting Modi into power.
Hindu rastra is the most wonderful thing that can happen to any nation. It was during hindu kings rule in india when Buddhism and Jainism rose to prominence. I wish every nation should become a hindurashtra if they really want to live a peaceful life on this planet.
Fourth stage of identity crisis!
I wish
I WISH!
So much Confusion 😕
Loved it.
Respect🙏
Sir, history is associated with humans, if in the Indian sub continent some think they just popup in 1947 then they have a new identity which takes 1000 years more to get established. For those who think their history is before 1947 or before they adopted Islam they have a strong identity.
You guys will never going to understand what Bharat is.
Thinking is start where previous has came to an end. Need is the mother of all inventions.
When did he came ,i missed it
It was on 11th December 2023 evening, no?
👏👏👏
Excellent talk... If truth be told, the unnecessary making of Pakistan set the subcontinent back by half a century. Infact turned the subcontinent to shit for generations.
Some might say creation of Pakistan created an ideal buffer India and what lies West of Indus
Unless Pakistan repudiates most of Jinnah's ideas, there is no viable way forward for it.
My comments below show some of them.
Can you bring Abbas Haidar on this chanel?