In mad space's defense, they were trying something that was not done in a 3D platformer at that point. Nintendo didn't even attempt it until Mario galaxy, two game system generations later.
@@theminecraft2516 Yeah, having to hit an hourglass to go through a door is really annoying. Props to Eggman for making an anti sonic defensive system to his pyramid base but its not fun in gameplay.
Hunnid-P's been kind of a jackass over the years, but his performance on these Knuckles raps is still great. I'm glad people are finally admitting to unironically liking them.
Yea I saw Splash Dash talking about how was he was harassing Emi Jones for money, due to the fact he wasn't happy with how much money their collaboration on a song for youtube made, claiming she was robbing him. She tried paying him a $300 flat rate but he still wasn't happy with that. Then later he comes back demanding thousands of dollars from her, as well as claiming sex was part of their deal. Talk about a lowlife scumbag.
@@chaomix In all honesty, I thought the Adventure 1 treasure hunting levels were more fair compared to Adventure 2's. What made Adventure 1 work is that you can speedrun that shit with the radar pointing out 3 different routes at once. Not in Adventure 2, because they want to make an unfair linear challenge that makes levels like Meteor Herd, Security Hall, and Mad Space feel unbalanced. There's a mod for that anyways: th-cam.com/video/41t-l5MVnPI/w-d-xo.html
I like them for reasons that probably weren't intended. When you don't know the levels and as a result play them long enough for the songs to loop several times, it starts to sound less like a chill rap and more like a slow descent into madness. I ain't gonna let it get to me, I ain't gonna let it get to me, I ain't gonna let it get to me....
The instrumental used for Pumpkin Hill is pretty incredible, I've liked it since I was a kid, funny story about that. In 2012 or so I used to make beats for my middle school friends who rapped. It was not very awesome stuff but I got paid to make it and my stuff "worked" so there's that. This one guy who used to mess with me a lot said he could do better, and after about a week of talking trash he came up with a beat to show how better he was at composing than me. I thought I recognised it at first, then it hit me, he was using a lyricless version of the pumpkin hill backing. I showed all the people involved what he did and he got a lot of shit for it, maybe even more than he should have because he got in a fight with one of the people I made beats for haha.
@@chaomix so your gonna ignore the part where sometimes when you try to get a hint form the computer it will tell you but it's words are scrambled because that's what broke me. And you can only ask the computer for help 3 times...
I always preferred the SA2 treasure hunting stages over the SA1 stages. I felt like the maps were a lot more fun to explore and greater took advantage of SA2 Knuckles' sublime control. The radar is objectively better in SA1, but to me it isn't a big enough issue to be worth complaining about (Death Chamber and Mad Space not withstanding).
Yeah honestly, the level actually isn’t that big and I don’t think I’ve ever ran out of time. It’s also cool that you’re finding chaos emeralds instead of master emerald shards.
The timer was never a big problem for me ether the radar system in it however was as it made the emeralds if there should spawn in one of the safes far more tedious as you could already have been to the upper levels twice only to than discover that you have to go there at the last emerald again because there was no way for you prior to know that this time an emerald would be in a safe and so you have to go up again to open the safe.
I don’t mind it in Security Hall. It’s really strict (and the story justification is kinda dumb) but the level is small enough that it’s not really an issue. I think it might be only slightly bigger than Dry Lagoon, and definitely smaller than Egg Quarters. The timer only becomes a problem during Mission 4 for the likes of Death Chamber, Meteor Herd and Mad Space because of how huge the levels are. At that point, it feels almost entirely luck-based.
the ??? section says: Sonic, what are you doin' here? I heard you were on a quest for the Master Emerald You know me and you don't get along I don't think that's the point right now, Knuckles I know how much the Emerald means to you, and I wanna help get it back Stop being stubborn and think! Well, I guess you're right You're damn right, Knuckles! I know Eggman's secret station's here somewhere All we have to do is find it I know we'll need a key to get inside That's our only way to find it, so let's go!
I never understood why people hated the Knuckles and Rouge stages so much, they're absolutely my favorite part of the game!! "Its so slow!" Well you say that until you realize you can complete a lot of the stages in under two minutes with practice and a lot of the A rank scores require that. Gotta go fast! Right? I absolutely loved being able to run around the stages and really get to explore every part of them.
Love hearing some defence of the treasure hunting levels. They were by far my favourite to play. I loved the freedom to explore and the nerfed radar didn't bother me one bit. I remember getting an A the first time I played Wild Canyon. Went steadily downhill from there, but it cemented my love of the levels
I've always thought a really simple way to improve the SA2 stages would be to have the SA1 style radar be a hidden, optional upgrade. That way the smaller early levels aren't over in a matter of seconds, but the bigger levels later on will be much easier & faster for those players who took the time to explore properly early on & found the radar upgrade
sa2 treasure hunter players can be broken up to 2 kinds of people: >the guy who spends half n hour in a store looking for something before walking out >the guy who asks the staff where it is
Always loved the treasure hunting part in both adventure games and trying to beat my time in each play through. Mad space was the only stage that I found really difficult but still enjoyed playing to for the stage aesthetic and music.
played SA2 so much back when it first came out, and revisited it recently. i had no idea that you could only track one emerald piece at a time, i always thought it was a glitch when i find a shard, then revisit an area and the radar starts beeping lol. these were my favorite levels though, if not only for having the best music but i just liked the more open endedness
I just started watching this video, but I just wanted to say that I LOVED the treasure hunting levels while playing SA2. I haven't played SA1, so I don't know how they are, but I just had a lot of fun with the SA2 levels- they had great music and I just loved gliding around with Knux and Rouge. Yeah, they were difficult and annoying sometimes, but I never really had much of an issue with them. I still have yet to complete the game, so I don't know how annoying the rest of the levels are.. But tbh, I never really understood the hate for the treasure hunting and even shooting levels, I enjoyed them too.
I don't dislike the treasure hunting levels, but sometimes the random spawns in the large SA2 levels make it rough. Everytime I replay I always end up taking like 45 minutes to beat Death Chamber - I hate that stage lol
Dude, if you're taking 45 minutes to beat ANY of the TH levels, that's on you. You just circle the level and follow the radar when it starts beeping. Even moving slowly and getting the worst RNG whilst using no radars, it shouldn't take any longer than say, 7-8 minutes? I'll be generous and say 10 should be the max, but even that's a stretch. In my case, getting terrible RNG that forces me to do 3 full laps of the level still allowed me to beat it in between 6-7 minutes. Average completion time is about 3-5.
I agree so much with this! Admittedly, I actually prefer the "downgrade" of the emerald radar in Sonic Adventure 2 because in the first one, the stages often felt too easy with the radar picking up all three emeralds at once and they could be beaten within about a minute or so, especially in smaller ones like Casinopolis. In Adventure 2 however, looking for one emerald or key at a time makes the stages feel more adventurous (plus the stages having better designs made for this play style adds to this.) Also it always feels very satisfying and rewarding whenever you just happen to stumble upon an emerald shard or key that isn't currently on the radar because you get extra points for finding it early. This can also lead to some funny moments like when you accidentally find one while digging in certain areas. My mom and I always had a lot of fun with these stages.
You can actually use the Fighting Gloves to do Double Damage to Chaos 6. It works just like a light speed attack, which helps with destroying enemies that are constantly moving, and it helps a lot if they have emeralds inside them.
The TH levels are not bad. In fact, they’re too underrated for some reason. But if I have to say one negative thing about it is not the levels themselves, it’s the mechanics of the TH levels in SA2.
I love your instatransmission entrance! This was your best video yet. A fun video to wake up to. I always loved knuckles and his music ever since I played Sonic 3. I think Knuckles would be an excellent addition to the smash brother universe. If you could pick another character besides knuckles to enter smash, who would you like to see? It's incredible watching your channel keeps growing with every upload looking forward to more!
Hoping to do more fun shenanigans in future videos, I’m getting way more comfortable on camera already. Knuckles would be an awesome inclusion to Smash. I’d love to see Dante from DMC join, I think that would be sick.
I loved the Knuckles levels, it added to that explorer/adventurer trait he sometimes had during the 90's and his abiltiy for a birds eye view of the map is super useful. The stages were alot more frustrating and tedious in SA2 compared to SA1 but I wouldn't say the radar was really downgraded, nothing actually stopped you from collecting the other shards if you just happen to run past them, besides, after you play the level a few times, you get a good idea on where all the hot spots are anyway.
The maps are generally fine - but Death Chamber is an absolutely TERRIBLE map because of how cramped it is, and the halls aren't very distinct leading to going in circles.
Imagine if the Treasure Hunting stages were more like they are in multiplayer: You'd actually race against Rouge/Knuckles/Badniks/GUN Robots to take the most pieces. Each opponent could even have their own gimmick, like Rouge tying you up or Artificial Chaos sniping you if you slow down in their sights.
Guys. To anyone here suggesting solutions to make the experience better in sa2's treasure hunting levels, it's all wrong. None of that you have to use the hints bs and get to the emerald piece fast enough, none of that memorizing the level layout nonsense, no. All you need to do, is rely on the range of the radar, instead of the hot and cold gimmick. See, the sa2 emerald radar may not detect all emeralds at once, but it has a far reaching range. Meaning, that if the emerald isn't being sensed in one large area of the level, then it isn't there, you only need to stay in said area for a couple of seconds to determine that the emerald piece is elsewhere. That's why the stages have different named sections, pumpkin hill for example. Backtracking is minimized by just switching up tactics. Makes pumpkin hill and aquatic mine 5 minute levels even with the worse emerald rng. And it makes security hall trivial.
I'm playing SA2 for the first time and god do I agree. I finished Pumpkin Hill in 2:17 minutes using this technique. Hunting levels are so much fun. SA1's are also really good, albeit a bit too easy
@@mrpro538 Legit. Mad space and Death Chamber still suck tho. The former having a gimmick that hasn't been figured out yet, and the later has huge hallways that's not fun to explore. I find the sa1 treasure hunting stages to be unengaging however, a bit too easy. Sa2's is definitely an improvement, albeit, with lower lows than it's predecessor.
@@TheunknownuserM07 I agree, they're the weakest levels, but I'm fine with both, I don't hate them. Also, using this technique, yesterday I A ranked Meteor Herd. Underrated peak
Only level I didn't like of the hunting was Mad Space XP Doing a quick scan of areas and easily getting fly/swim in dry lagoon and wild canyon is great the key level with rouge for power~ so easy for chao rearing. The songs are a bonus ^-^ those who hate them just need to get good at them because the characters move fast and you can complete many of the levels swiftly
My favourite gameplay style is Treasure Hunting. I love Exploration, and I love Knuckles. Mix Exploration & Knuckles (pun intended), and you get my favourite play style. I love going back to the SA2 Treasure Hunting stages to get an A Rank, and it's so satisfying to get a Perfect when you get an Emerald Piece, a key or a Chaos Emerald at the right time.
I love how in SA 2 Knuckle's running animation is so frenetic that looks like he has lots of legs, in Meteor heard, i aways look for the speed Shoes, just to see that Sonic Running animation in Knuckles lol. Small and silly correction: Chaos did NOT destroy the master Emerald... Eggman send one of his robots, maybe Gamma, because there's too much time difference between his 1st and 2nd mission, and that cameo of Gamma flying on the Master Emerald, since Gamma can't access the Master Emerald altar in normal gameplay... Luv ur videos🙃🌟👋
Honestly treasure hunting was my favorite levels followed by racing (and fishing). Being able to explore the area and find the secrets was so much fun. I even had someone online call me out for my like of these levels and claimed that I only liked the levels because of the mods that were added to the pc version which I never played. Not to say that the other stories were bad but I liked the treasure hunting the most.
I think the rank system is the main reason why the radar was nerfed. Being able to find all the McGuffins in the stage would make A ranks too easy. Additionally, I wish you would've covered how SA2's treasure hunting stages all have points of interest where you're most likely going to find them. This allows you to increase your pace by simply being in the general area of that point.
I feel like 95% of my hate for treasure hunting comes from mad space, meteor herd, and aquatic mine. Outside of those 3 levels I dont mind treasure hunting, a lot of the levels are even fun to explore. Even Rouge's infamous 5 minutes to find the chaos emeralds usually isnt too hard.
I honestly always thought they were pretty good overall, fairly fun. I like exploration gameplay like that. My complaints are: The sequence-lock on the radar in SA2, some of the SA2 monitor hints being a bit poorly worded (the level where the hints are wrong on purpose is one thing, this is just sloppiness), and some of the A-rank time requirements in SA2 being *ridiculously* tight (a general issue with SA2; the Lost Chao missions are _particularly_ bad about it. Did Sega make the mistake of using extreme speedrunners as playtesters?).
As a dumb kid the Treasure Hunting stages were rough, Meteor Herd stopped my Hero playthrough for a while until I came back and said "Actually I had a lot of fun, what happened?" If you take it as less of a "Sonic Game" the adventure games a really fun!
I just finished my first 180 emblem play-through of SA2 Battle. To my surprise, I first got all the A-ranks in the treasure hunting levels because I was enjoying them so much. (Except Mad Space! My heart sank when I realized that I would need to replicate what I did on the first mission to beat the fourth mission.)
People hate on SA2's radar but it works perfectly fine. It does exactly what it needs to do without making the levels too easy. Unfortunately people just seem to have trouble following a very simple hot-or-cold system or remembering that they're in a 3D space. The levels are small and contained - you do a general sweep of it to find the green signal, then narrow it down, paying attention to HOW the radar changes as you move. For example, in Security Hall, if you get a green signal that turns yellow on the yellow safe balcony, but then green again as you search left and right, that means the Emerald isn't ON that balcony, but either above or below it. If you'd already come from the bottom floor and the signal was weaker, then that means it must be up. And that's all you have to do - narrow down where it ISN'T and you'll know where it IS. Another example from a Let's Play I saw once: the dude was in Wild Canyon and, after circling the middle area for 3 minutes, ignoring the signal turning green as he got close to the path leading to the stone head, he EVENTUALLY decided to follow that path. It turned yellow, but then turned green again as he reached the head. He then proceed to keep going back-and-forth, retreading exactly where he'd already been and not doing anything different. Surprise surprise, the piece turned out to be in the ONE DIRECTION he hadn't thought to search: up. You just go to where the signal turns yellow, climb up, and there's a robot there with the piece inside. Literally shouldn't even take 10 seconds from getting the first green signal to figure that out.
I've always loved to explore levels with Knuckles and Rouge. Even that one space level. The only exception was a Prison island with a timer -___- And in SA1 Knuckles' story is actually my favorite. Also I find his abilities the most full among all characters, like, you can do almost anything: you can run fast, you can fly, you can climb! you can fight, you can even dig. Who else can dig? Nobody? Here we are. Didn't even know people hate on treasure hunters in SA(
People say that they take way too long but honestly in my first playthrough of SA2 none of them went past 10 minutes, not to mention exploring around as Knuckles is really fun and was a great idea with how much he could do
The only thing I don’t like about the treasure hunting levels in Sonic Adventure 2 is that getting an A rank in those levels feel very luck based because of how large most of the levels are on top of the radar not detecting every emerald piece. (Looking at you, Mad Space!)
I really like the treasure hunting stages in SA1, but in SA2, I couldn’t stand the radar, so I installed a mod that fixes that and now SA2 is in my top 10 favorite Sonic games because of that mod
SEGA beat Nintendo to the "planet physics" punch with Mad Space, it was a neat idea, but I don't think it was executed in the best way. I like these levels, they encourage exploration.
In Sonic CD Sonic went back in time and changed the past and this could have caused an alternate timeline where the modern sonic games happen. In sonic generations Classic Sonic meets his supposed future self which altered his timeline. So we have Adventure Sonic which is Timeline 1 sonic, Modern Sonic which is Timeline 2 Sonic and Classic Sonic which is Timeline 3 Sonic.
chaomix I don’t think it has the part about generations. I might have not thought about that at the time. Sonic CD is my favorite sonic game of all time. Sonic Adventure 2 is my second favorite.
They are no bad that's for sure,I think people are way to used to fast levels and when we get a full exploration slow level they will think that's kinda weird and bad.
I honestly loved every second of knuckles part of treasure hunting and found them easy and challenging being an over all fun experience. Some of Rouge’s levels for me are just a pain like the time limit in security hall the gravity mechanics in mad space and the egg beatle ( in my opinion this games equivalent of nemesis from RE3 but more frustrating).
I unironically like the treasure hunting levels and never got the hate either. I _do_ absolutely hate the way they _broke_ the emerald radar in SA2, _especially_ given how much bigger the levels are. You can literally fly right by one 6 times in Mad Space and never know it. Or (and this actually happened to me on my 1st or 2nd time ever playing Wild Canyon and I still remember it; because I didn't know they'd broken the radar yet), you can have one _right freaking behind you_ at spawn, but think it's part of the HUD or background because the radar isn't going off. And I actually dislike Meteor Herd more than Mad Space, because while Mad Space is freakin' huge and the gravity mechanic can be wonky, at least the stage doesn't _actively_ try to kill you for standing still for three seconds to figure out where the hell you are and what the hint box is trying to tell you.
Since I grew up playing this game from a pretty young age (~5ish) I just kind of took whatever the game threw at me and enjoyed all of it! I liked the Sonic levels the best, but I'd offer that since Sonic/Shadow's controls are the most variable, quick, and fluid, sometimes the harder challenges (4th for speed, 5th for hard mode) were beyond me as, first, a kid, and now, an adult who just never got much better, haha. Knuckles/Rouge, and Tails/Eggman offer slightly more level playing fields for the clueless, like myself. Or maybe that's wrong, but it's what it feels like! I never hated treasure hunting in general, just particular levels. I was very afraid of Egg Quarters as a kid, lol
I feel like if they WANTED to make it focus on 1 emerald. Just make it focus on whatever emerald is closer, so you can't run past an emerald without realizing it
I only watched the defense portion of the video (love the separated sections!), so I hope I'm not missing any context. I think this video does a good job explaining how the levels can be fun, but not how they are a good idea that enhances Sonic Adventure 2 for fans of the usual Sonic gameplay. While both styles can be spedran, the same goes for almost anything, which ignores the distinct appeal of either gameplay style.
That is the good thing about older sonic games But now it seems they have forgotten that other characters like Tails, Knuckles and Amy are part of the game too and playing as them is enjoyable as well
Oh deer, at the start I was so sure you were gonna pull a bait-and-switch and say Tikal :) For my part I actually prefer the mech levels to the hunting levels at least in SA2. As the game goes on the mech stages at least feel like they're introducing new mechanics and interesting challenges, while the hunting levels just become bigger and more confusing mazes on a general trend towards... well, Mad Space has plenty of other problems but it is the logical end point of this. ;) And when they do try to introduce interesting challenges like the time limit in Security Hall it ends up being more frustrating than exciting. That being said there is a lot of potential in the idea and I'd love to have seen it iterated on more. Off the top of my head, a minimap that fills in as you pass through new areas (think kinda like Doom's automap), while obviously not showing the precise objective locations, would at least help players realize when they've unintentionally backtracked, and help to highlight those little pathways that aren't so much hidden as just easy to miss on a first run. It could also replace the hint system which... well, I personally have too many criticisms for that aspect to expound on in one post. :) SA2's levels had a tendency to re-use entire room structures multiple times, which was fine in the two linear styles where there is one, clear, way forward, but on a hunting level it could make navigation extremely confusing -- especially big ones with more abstract designs like Death Chamber and Meteor Herd. If they toned down the re-use and maybe based the level designs a little bit more on real-world cues that are easier for someone to intuitively understand (SA1 was very good at this), I think they'd have something really strong. Doesn't necessarily mean not using more fantastical locations but just thinking more about where the recognizable elements of those locations might realistically be in relation to each other instead of sprinkling them at random around the map. The idea of switching up the entire music style to something typically low-tempo like rap or R&B or jazz for a slower-paced gameplay section is a good general one. Especially in the way lyrics can be used to help define an introverted character like Knuckles.
Sort of off topic, but I honestly kind of wish the guy that sang Knuckles' stage songs in SA2 could also VA him. I mean, the songs are already (mostly) from his POV, so it makes sense? I dunno, I just like the softer-sounding Knuckles in the Adventure games and the second Sonic movie compared to the growly and angry-sounding Knuxes we've gotten for the past several years.
My favorite stages are treasure hunting. Mainly the ones from Rouge, as the ones from Knuckles are bigger maps and just look for objects, while the ones from Rouge have some extra challenge, like the water in Dry Lagoon, the security robot in Egg Quarters, the totally plenty five minutes of Security Hall and the gravity mechanic of Mad Space, but are smaller (But I don't like her stages only because they're smaller)
After watching this video my perspective on the treasure hunting stages have changed from oh god I wanna off the game to these levels are not bad! Even if I got stuck, I still pushed through with my secret weapon: TH-cam. Thank you Chaomix you are awesome!
Honestly. The only thing inherently wrong with the Treasure stages, is the radar and Mad Space. The themes and level design are really unique, and the pieces being randomized adds many possibilities, for new routes. But, one good thing Mad Space did, was actually doing Super Mario Galaxy, before Super Mario Galaxy
In mad space's defense, they were trying something that was not done in a 3D platformer at that point. Nintendo didn't even attempt it until Mario galaxy, two game system generations later.
Very true! The gravity mechanic was something I'd never played before until that game. Although it can be super frustrating, it's super interesting.
Mad Space is not the worst level in SA2, that goes to Death Chamber in my opinion
@@theminecraft2516 Yeah, having to hit an hourglass to go through a door is really annoying. Props to Eggman for making an anti sonic defensive system to his pyramid base but its not fun in gameplay.
@@EmperorKarino Not just that but the SA2 radar was just not built for that stage
@@theminecraft2516 I respect your opinion, but I always have a hard time with mad space... 😩
Hunnid-P's been kind of a jackass over the years, but his performance on these Knuckles raps is still great. I'm glad people are finally admitting to unironically liking them.
Yeah I thought about talking about that but vid was getting a bit too long. Maybe I’ll make a whole video about it
Yea I saw
Splash Dash talking about how was he was harassing Emi Jones for money, due to the fact he wasn't happy with how much money their collaboration on a song for youtube made, claiming she was robbing him. She tried paying him a $300 flat rate but he still wasn't happy with that. Then later he comes back demanding thousands of dollars from her, as well as claiming sex was part of their deal.
Talk about a lowlife scumbag.
@@chaomix In all honesty, I thought the Adventure 1 treasure hunting levels were more fair compared to Adventure 2's. What made Adventure 1 work is that you can speedrun that shit with the radar pointing out 3 different routes at once. Not in Adventure 2, because they want to make an unfair linear challenge that makes levels like Meteor Herd, Security Hall, and Mad Space feel unbalanced. There's a mod for that anyways: th-cam.com/video/41t-l5MVnPI/w-d-xo.html
I like them for reasons that probably weren't intended. When you don't know the levels and as a result play them long enough for the songs to loop several times, it starts to sound less like a chill rap and more like a slow descent into madness. I ain't gonna let it get to me, I ain't gonna let it get to me, I ain't gonna let it get to me....
It's a shame how he's been acting, since I still love those beats, to this day.
The instrumental used for Pumpkin Hill is pretty incredible, I've liked it since I was a kid, funny story about that. In 2012 or so I used to make beats for my middle school friends who rapped. It was not very awesome stuff but I got paid to make it and my stuff "worked" so there's that. This one guy who used to mess with me a lot said he could do better, and after about a week of talking trash he came up with a beat to show how better he was at composing than me. I thought I recognised it at first, then it hit me, he was using a lyricless version of the pumpkin hill backing. I showed all the people involved what he did and he got a lot of shit for it, maybe even more than he should have because he got in a fight with one of the people I made beats for haha.
I’m glad to see someone showing genuine respect for knuckles, the memes can kinda get exhausting to see at times...
I love the movent in sa2 for knuckles it feels so smooth
Yeah he’s honestly almost as fast as Sonic, it’s so good.
@@chaomix yea and it's cool that if you punch you get a small boost
I like Knuckles' running animation is so frenetic, i love it, in Meteor herd i always look for a Speed shoes monitor to see his arms behind lol
@@chaomix so your gonna ignore the part where sometimes when you try to get a hint form the computer it will tell you but it's words are scrambled because that's what broke me. And you can only ask the computer for help 3 times...
The music is better but I understand
I remember playing MadSpace. It was so hard. I almost screamed at the top of my lungs before I beat it.
SAME THOUGH.
The first time I beat it, it took me over an hour. I mean I guess I was just a dumb 6-10 year old but still.
@@johnpett1955 tbh I found meteor herd harder than mad space. Something about random spawning meteors always just hit me
Knuckles guards the weed- I mean master emerald.
EXCELLENT WORK. CHAOMIX SONIC ADVENTURE TREASURES HUNTING DEFENDING THEM
I always preferred the SA2 treasure hunting stages over the SA1 stages. I felt like the maps were a lot more fun to explore and greater took advantage of SA2 Knuckles' sublime control. The radar is objectively better in SA1, but to me it isn't a big enough issue to be worth complaining about (Death Chamber and Mad Space not withstanding).
Yeah same here!
Death Chamber & Mad Space were Level 4 2P Stages for good reason.
thx for someone actually liking the ones in SA2. jeez they get too much hate for an honestly beneficial change.
Yeah, that's because of the fact that some of the SA1 knuckles stages are kinda of tech demo quality and beign reused of Sonic
A lot of people complain about the time limit for security hall, but in my opinion that makes it much more fun.
Yeah honestly, the level actually isn’t that big and I don’t think I’ve ever ran out of time. It’s also cool that you’re finding chaos emeralds instead of master emerald shards.
The timer was never a big problem for me ether the radar system in it however was as it made the emeralds if there should spawn in one of the safes far more tedious as you could already have been to the upper levels twice only to than discover that you have to go there at the last emerald again because there was no way for you prior to know that this time an emerald would be in a safe and so you have to go up again to open the safe.
Agreed
I beat that level under 3 minutes on my first try and of course A ranked it, the only problems were the enemies and lazers.
I don’t mind it in Security Hall. It’s really strict (and the story justification is kinda dumb) but the level is small enough that it’s not really an issue. I think it might be only slightly bigger than Dry Lagoon, and definitely smaller than Egg Quarters. The timer only becomes a problem during Mission 4 for the likes of Death Chamber, Meteor Herd and Mad Space because of how huge the levels are. At that point, it feels almost entirely luck-based.
the ??? section says:
Sonic, what are you doin' here?
I heard you were on a quest for the Master Emerald
You know me and you don't get along
I don't think that's the point right now, Knuckles
I know how much the Emerald means to you, and I wanna help get it back
Stop being stubborn and think!
Well, I guess you're right
You're damn right, Knuckles!
I know Eggman's secret station's here somewhere
All we have to do is find it
I know we'll need a key to get inside
That's our only way to find it, so let's go!
11:29 best part of the video
“I don’t think that’s the point right now Knuckles”
11:28 I like how a random part of the story, this dialogue, is just in the OST.
"You're damn right" - Sonic
Okay, now defend the Tails/Eggman Mech Stages.
I never understood why people hated the Knuckles and Rouge stages so much, they're absolutely my favorite part of the game!!
"Its so slow!" Well you say that until you realize you can complete a lot of the stages in under two minutes with practice and a lot of the A rank scores require that. Gotta go fast! Right?
I absolutely loved being able to run around the stages and really get to explore every part of them.
Thank you for this video! I always loved the treasure hunting levels, and it really pains me to see so many people complain about them!
Love hearing some defence of the treasure hunting levels. They were by far my favourite to play. I loved the freedom to explore and the nerfed radar didn't bother me one bit. I remember getting an A the first time I played Wild Canyon. Went steadily downhill from there, but it cemented my love of the levels
I've always thought a really simple way to improve the SA2 stages would be to have the SA1 style radar be a hidden, optional upgrade. That way the smaller early levels aren't over in a matter of seconds, but the bigger levels later on will be much easier & faster for those players who took the time to explore properly early on & found the radar upgrade
Yeah, but then they'd complain that it's an upgrade. Look at Zero Gravity for an idea of what I'm talking about.
it definitely took a while to get used to the treasure stages but it's also one of my favorite stages.
My head canon of why the master emerald hasnt been stolen or let alone brought up is that knuckles just found a *really* good hiding spot
LOL BRO JUST HID IT REALLY WELL
Another advantage knuckles has is that he doesnt chuckle. Unlike Sonic
sa2 treasure hunter players can be broken up to 2 kinds of people:
>the guy who spends half n hour in a store looking for something before walking out
>the guy who asks the staff where it is
or the third type, the person who knows where the thing they are looking for is
Always loved the treasure hunting part in both adventure games and trying to beat my time in each play through. Mad space was the only stage that I found really difficult but still enjoyed playing to for the stage aesthetic and music.
"Not fast = SUX"
Mr. Retrospective
played SA2 so much back when it first came out, and revisited it recently. i had no idea that you could only track one emerald piece at a time, i always thought it was a glitch when i find a shard, then revisit an area and the radar starts beeping lol. these were my favorite levels though, if not only for having the best music but i just liked the more open endedness
I discovered your channel a couple of days ago, and I think your content is awesome! Keep up the good work dude !!
I just started watching this video, but I just wanted to say that I LOVED the treasure hunting levels while playing SA2. I haven't played SA1, so I don't know how they are, but I just had a lot of fun with the SA2 levels- they had great music and I just loved gliding around with Knux and Rouge. Yeah, they were difficult and annoying sometimes, but I never really had much of an issue with them. I still have yet to complete the game, so I don't know how annoying the rest of the levels are.. But tbh, I never really understood the hate for the treasure hunting and even shooting levels, I enjoyed them too.
I don't dislike the treasure hunting levels, but sometimes the random spawns in the large SA2 levels make it rough. Everytime I replay I always end up taking like 45 minutes to beat Death Chamber - I hate that stage lol
I’ve definitely been there before lol.
And the ghost jumpscares don’t help
I couldn't beat Pumpkin Hill when I was a little kid because of those jumpscares lol
Dude, if you're taking 45 minutes to beat ANY of the TH levels, that's on you. You just circle the level and follow the radar when it starts beeping. Even moving slowly and getting the worst RNG whilst using no radars, it shouldn't take any longer than say, 7-8 minutes? I'll be generous and say 10 should be the max, but even that's a stretch. In my case, getting terrible RNG that forces me to do 3 full laps of the level still allowed me to beat it in between 6-7 minutes. Average completion time is about 3-5.
I agree so much with this! Admittedly, I actually prefer the "downgrade" of the emerald radar in Sonic Adventure 2 because in the first one, the stages often felt too easy with the radar picking up all three emeralds at once and they could be beaten within about a minute or so, especially in smaller ones like Casinopolis. In Adventure 2 however, looking for one emerald or key at a time makes the stages feel more adventurous (plus the stages having better designs made for this play style adds to this.) Also it always feels very satisfying and rewarding whenever you just happen to stumble upon an emerald shard or key that isn't currently on the radar because you get extra points for finding it early. This can also lead to some funny moments like when you accidentally find one while digging in certain areas. My mom and I always had a lot of fun with these stages.
I haven't played the Adventure games or the treasure hunting stages, but outside of that, they seem fun to actually play.
You can actually use the Fighting Gloves to do Double Damage to Chaos 6. It works just like a light speed attack, which helps with destroying enemies that are constantly moving, and it helps a lot if they have emeralds inside them.
The TH levels are not bad. In fact, they’re too underrated for some reason. But if I have to say one negative thing about it is not the levels themselves, it’s the mechanics of the TH levels in SA2.
"Sonic decided to inject some black culture into Knuckles"
Funny thing is all the way back in Sonic 3 he was meant to speak with a Jamaican accent.
0:07
People say that just because I’m an ogre, I can’t dance! Are you kidding me?!
I love your instatransmission entrance! This was your best video yet. A fun video to wake up to. I always loved knuckles and his music ever since I played Sonic 3. I think Knuckles would be an excellent addition to the smash brother universe. If you could pick another character besides knuckles to enter smash, who would you like to see? It's incredible watching your channel keeps growing with every upload looking forward to more!
Hoping to do more fun shenanigans in future videos, I’m getting way more comfortable on camera already.
Knuckles would be an awesome inclusion to Smash. I’d love to see Dante from DMC join, I think that would be sick.
@@chaomix Yeah, agreed!! Dante would wreck shit up.
I loved the Knuckles levels, it added to that explorer/adventurer trait he sometimes had during the 90's and his abiltiy for a birds eye view of the map is super useful.
The stages were alot more frustrating and tedious in SA2 compared to SA1 but I wouldn't say the radar was really downgraded, nothing actually stopped you from collecting the other shards if you just happen to run past them, besides, after you play the level a few times, you get a good idea on where all the hot spots are anyway.
The maps are generally fine - but Death Chamber is an absolutely TERRIBLE map because of how cramped it is, and the halls aren't very distinct leading to going in circles.
As a person who loves the treasure hunting stages I agree that death chamber is the worst level next to mad space
Imagine if the Treasure Hunting stages were more like they are in multiplayer: You'd actually race against Rouge/Knuckles/Badniks/GUN Robots to take the most pieces. Each opponent could even have their own gimmick, like Rouge tying you up or Artificial Chaos sniping you if you slow down in their sights.
Wonderful video as always!
12:23 THANK YOU THAT LEVEL IS A DUMPSTER FIRE
Guys. To anyone here suggesting solutions to make the experience better in sa2's treasure hunting levels, it's all wrong. None of that you have to use the hints bs and get to the emerald piece fast enough, none of that memorizing the level layout nonsense, no.
All you need to do, is rely on the range of the radar, instead of the hot and cold gimmick. See, the sa2 emerald radar may not detect all emeralds at once, but it has a far reaching range. Meaning, that if the emerald isn't being sensed in one large area of the level, then it isn't there, you only need to stay in said area for a couple of seconds to determine that the emerald piece is elsewhere. That's why the stages have different named sections, pumpkin hill for example. Backtracking is minimized by just switching up tactics.
Makes pumpkin hill and aquatic mine 5 minute levels even with the worse emerald rng. And it makes security hall trivial.
I'm playing SA2 for the first time and god do I agree. I finished Pumpkin Hill in 2:17 minutes using this technique. Hunting levels are so much fun. SA1's are also really good, albeit a bit too easy
@@mrpro538 Legit. Mad space and Death Chamber still suck tho. The former having a gimmick that hasn't been figured out yet, and the later has huge hallways that's not fun to explore.
I find the sa1 treasure hunting stages to be unengaging however, a bit too easy. Sa2's is definitely an improvement, albeit, with lower lows than it's predecessor.
@@TheunknownuserM07 I agree, they're the weakest levels, but I'm fine with both, I don't hate them. Also, using this technique, yesterday I A ranked Meteor Herd. Underrated peak
Since Knuckles doesn't guard the M.E. anymore, I wonder how they explain that situation canonically lol
Only level I didn't like of the hunting was Mad Space XP
Doing a quick scan of areas and easily getting fly/swim in dry lagoon and wild canyon is great the key level with rouge for power~ so easy for chao rearing. The songs are a bonus ^-^ those who hate them just need to get good at them because the characters move fast and you can complete many of the levels swiftly
Can you make a defense video for the mech stages? I've always loved them
Spongebob narrator: “One week later.”
@Chris Delgado 🙏
honest to god the treasure hunting is my favorite part of sonic adventure 2 aside from death chamber love them all
My favourite gameplay style is Treasure Hunting. I love Exploration, and I love Knuckles. Mix Exploration & Knuckles (pun intended), and you get my favourite play style. I love going back to the SA2 Treasure Hunting stages to get an A Rank, and it's so satisfying to get a Perfect when you get an Emerald Piece, a key or a Chaos Emerald at the right time.
I love how in SA 2 Knuckle's running animation is so frenetic that looks like he has lots of legs, in Meteor heard, i aways look for the speed Shoes, just to see that Sonic Running animation in Knuckles lol.
Small and silly correction: Chaos did NOT destroy the master Emerald... Eggman send one of his robots, maybe Gamma, because there's too much time difference between his 1st and 2nd mission, and that cameo of Gamma flying on the Master Emerald, since Gamma can't access the Master Emerald altar in normal gameplay...
Luv ur videos🙃🌟👋
This video was the true start of the channel
One minor error is that Eggman was the one who broke the Master Emerald releasing chaos for his evil doings
I never played Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, but I trust Chaomix because he's like a Sonic Game Critic
That intro was enough to earn my Like, no matter what this video ended up being about.
Tbh I like the Knuckles levels the most.
I would like to play a game packed just with treasure hunting levels like this.
I love how the singer has conversations with himself on some songs lmfao
I love em,they are basically the sonic equivalent to Spyro and banjo
Treasure Hunting is low key the *REAL* best part of SA2
I got an Audible ad saying "Just listen" after you said listen. Lol.
Also, that one theme for Knuckles that became a meme because of it's...suggestive lyrics.
My favourite sa2 levels:sonic & knuckles
Also my favourite levels from sa1 and sa2:everything
Finally...someone who agrees with me when it comes to the Knuckles and Rouge levels.
Honestly treasure hunting was my favorite levels followed by racing (and fishing). Being able to explore the area and find the secrets was so much fun. I even had someone online call me out for my like of these levels and claimed that I only liked the levels because of the mods that were added to the pc version which I never played. Not to say that the other stories were bad but I liked the treasure hunting the most.
I think the rank system is the main reason why the radar was nerfed. Being able to find all the McGuffins in the stage would make A ranks too easy. Additionally, I wish you would've covered how SA2's treasure hunting stages all have points of interest where you're most likely going to find them. This allows you to increase your pace by simply being in the general area of that point.
with the discourse around sa2's other game styles sometimes it feels like I'm the only person that likes the treasure hunt *and* the mech stages
I feel like 95% of my hate for treasure hunting comes from mad space, meteor herd, and aquatic mine. Outside of those 3 levels I dont mind treasure hunting, a lot of the levels are even fun to explore. Even Rouge's infamous 5 minutes to find the chaos emeralds usually isnt too hard.
I honestly always thought they were pretty good overall, fairly fun. I like exploration gameplay like that.
My complaints are: The sequence-lock on the radar in SA2, some of the SA2 monitor hints being a bit poorly worded (the level where the hints are wrong on purpose is one thing, this is just sloppiness), and some of the A-rank time requirements in SA2 being *ridiculously* tight (a general issue with SA2; the Lost Chao missions are _particularly_ bad about it. Did Sega make the mistake of using extreme speedrunners as playtesters?).
As a dumb kid the Treasure Hunting stages were rough, Meteor Herd stopped my Hero playthrough for a while until I came back and said "Actually I had a lot of fun, what happened?"
If you take it as less of a "Sonic Game" the adventure games a really fun!
I just finished my first 180 emblem play-through of SA2 Battle. To my surprise, I first got all the A-ranks in the treasure hunting levels because I was enjoying them so much.
(Except Mad Space! My heart sank when I realized that I would need to replicate what I did on the first mission to beat the fourth mission.)
The fighting gloves for knuckles in sonic adventure is just the light speed attack for knuckles
This is so true his levels were better in adventure 1 than 2
People hate on SA2's radar but it works perfectly fine. It does exactly what it needs to do without making the levels too easy. Unfortunately people just seem to have trouble following a very simple hot-or-cold system or remembering that they're in a 3D space. The levels are small and contained - you do a general sweep of it to find the green signal, then narrow it down, paying attention to HOW the radar changes as you move.
For example, in Security Hall, if you get a green signal that turns yellow on the yellow safe balcony, but then green again as you search left and right, that means the Emerald isn't ON that balcony, but either above or below it. If you'd already come from the bottom floor and the signal was weaker, then that means it must be up. And that's all you have to do - narrow down where it ISN'T and you'll know where it IS.
Another example from a Let's Play I saw once: the dude was in Wild Canyon and, after circling the middle area for 3 minutes, ignoring the signal turning green as he got close to the path leading to the stone head, he EVENTUALLY decided to follow that path. It turned yellow, but then turned green again as he reached the head. He then proceed to keep going back-and-forth, retreading exactly where he'd already been and not doing anything different. Surprise surprise, the piece turned out to be in the ONE DIRECTION he hadn't thought to search: up. You just go to where the signal turns yellow, climb up, and there's a robot there with the piece inside. Literally shouldn't even take 10 seconds from getting the first green signal to figure that out.
I've always loved to explore levels with Knuckles and Rouge. Even that one space level. The only exception was a Prison island with a timer -___-
And in SA1 Knuckles' story is actually my favorite. Also I find his abilities the most full among all characters, like, you can do almost anything: you can run fast, you can fly, you can climb! you can fight, you can even dig. Who else can dig? Nobody? Here we are.
Didn't even know people hate on treasure hunters in SA(
People say that they take way too long but honestly in my first playthrough of SA2 none of them went past 10 minutes, not to mention exploring around as Knuckles is really fun and was a great idea with how much he could do
The only thing I don’t like about the treasure hunting levels in Sonic Adventure 2 is that getting an A rank in those levels feel very luck based because of how large most of the levels are on top of the radar not detecting every emerald piece. (Looking at you, Mad Space!)
I really like the treasure hunting stages in SA1, but in SA2, I couldn’t stand the radar, so I installed a mod that fixes that and now SA2 is in my top 10 favorite Sonic games because of that mod
i did enjoy the Treasure hunting for it's more open level design similar to a Sandbox.
I really don't mind the treasure hunting levels but I will saythe knuckles raps are the best part
Knuckles music in this game is incredible
SEGA beat Nintendo to the "planet physics" punch with Mad Space, it was a neat idea, but I don't think it was executed in the best way. I like these levels, they encourage exploration.
In Sonic CD Sonic went back in time and changed the past and this could have caused an alternate timeline where the modern sonic games happen. In sonic generations Classic Sonic meets his supposed future self which altered his timeline. So we have Adventure Sonic which is Timeline 1 sonic, Modern Sonic which is Timeline 2 Sonic and Classic Sonic which is Timeline 3 Sonic.
Hmm, very interesting theory. You should do a video talkin about it, I'd definitely watch that!
chaomix I already made a video about it
chaomix th-cam.com/video/ITufrFwJG0E/w-d-xo.html
chaomix I don’t think it has the part about generations. I might have not thought about that at the time. Sonic CD is my favorite sonic game of all time. Sonic Adventure 2 is my second favorite.
@@crashban4t.f.s.b783 Sonic cd is underratted
They are no bad that's for sure,I think people are way to used to fast levels and when we get a full exploration slow level they will think that's kinda weird and bad.
4:20 I alway thought it was the grey emeralds power allows me to feel
I honestly loved every second of knuckles part of treasure hunting and found them easy and challenging being an over all fun experience. Some of Rouge’s levels for me are just a pain like the time limit in security hall the gravity mechanics in mad space and the egg beatle ( in my opinion this games equivalent of nemesis from RE3 but more frustrating).
I really miss Knuckles as a treasure hunter and guardian of the Master Emerald.
I unironically like the treasure hunting levels and never got the hate either.
I _do_ absolutely hate the way they _broke_ the emerald radar in SA2, _especially_ given how much bigger the levels are. You can literally fly right by one 6 times in Mad Space and never know it. Or (and this actually happened to me on my 1st or 2nd time ever playing Wild Canyon and I still remember it; because I didn't know they'd broken the radar yet), you can have one _right freaking behind you_ at spawn, but think it's part of the HUD or background because the radar isn't going off.
And I actually dislike Meteor Herd more than Mad Space, because while Mad Space is freakin' huge and the gravity mechanic can be wonky, at least the stage doesn't _actively_ try to kill you for standing still for three seconds to figure out where the hell you are and what the hint box is trying to tell you.
Since I grew up playing this game from a pretty young age (~5ish) I just kind of took whatever the game threw at me and enjoyed all of it! I liked the Sonic levels the best, but I'd offer that since Sonic/Shadow's controls are the most variable, quick, and fluid, sometimes the harder challenges (4th for speed, 5th for hard mode) were beyond me as, first, a kid, and now, an adult who just never got much better, haha. Knuckles/Rouge, and Tails/Eggman offer slightly more level playing fields for the clueless, like myself. Or maybe that's wrong, but it's what it feels like! I never hated treasure hunting in general, just particular levels. I was very afraid of Egg Quarters as a kid, lol
I used to hate them too but all you have to do is get good and I'm not lying
I always loved the treasure hunting stages in both games. Except Death Chamber. I always get stuck on that one.
Personnally I don't have issues with the treasure hunting levels the only drawback they have is the fact that they existed in a core sonic game
I loved the hunting in Sonic Adventure 1 but Sonic Adventure 2's hunting was just horrendous, maybe because I haven't played it in a long time.
I feel like if they WANTED to make it focus on 1 emerald. Just make it focus on whatever emerald is closer, so you can't run past an emerald without realizing it
I only watched the defense portion of the video (love the separated sections!), so I hope I'm not missing any context. I think this video does a good job explaining how the levels can be fun, but not how they are a good idea that enhances Sonic Adventure 2 for fans of the usual Sonic gameplay. While both styles can be spedran, the same goes for almost anything, which ignores the distinct appeal of either gameplay style.
I only played the SA1:DX GameCube Demo and I really liked the Knuckles treasure hunting levels.
That is the good thing about older sonic games
But now it seems they have forgotten that other characters like Tails, Knuckles and Amy are part of the game too and playing as them is enjoyable as well
i dont really like the treasure hunting levels but i sure do love the music in them
Oh deer, at the start I was so sure you were gonna pull a bait-and-switch and say Tikal :)
For my part I actually prefer the mech levels to the hunting levels at least in SA2. As the game goes on the mech stages at least feel like they're introducing new mechanics and interesting challenges, while the hunting levels just become bigger and more confusing mazes on a general trend towards... well, Mad Space has plenty of other problems but it is the logical end point of this. ;) And when they do try to introduce interesting challenges like the time limit in Security Hall it ends up being more frustrating than exciting.
That being said there is a lot of potential in the idea and I'd love to have seen it iterated on more. Off the top of my head, a minimap that fills in as you pass through new areas (think kinda like Doom's automap), while obviously not showing the precise objective locations, would at least help players realize when they've unintentionally backtracked, and help to highlight those little pathways that aren't so much hidden as just easy to miss on a first run. It could also replace the hint system which... well, I personally have too many criticisms for that aspect to expound on in one post. :)
SA2's levels had a tendency to re-use entire room structures multiple times, which was fine in the two linear styles where there is one, clear, way forward, but on a hunting level it could make navigation extremely confusing -- especially big ones with more abstract designs like Death Chamber and Meteor Herd.
If they toned down the re-use and maybe based the level designs a little bit more on real-world cues that are easier for someone to intuitively understand (SA1 was very good at this), I think they'd have something really strong. Doesn't necessarily mean not using more fantastical locations but just thinking more about where the recognizable elements of those locations might realistically be in relation to each other instead of sprinkling them at random around the map.
The idea of switching up the entire music style to something typically low-tempo like rap or R&B or jazz for a slower-paced gameplay section is a good general one. Especially in the way lyrics can be used to help define an introverted character like Knuckles.
The treasure and speed levels are good since you can still go fast, but the mech levels are also and tedious.
Sort of off topic, but I honestly kind of wish the guy that sang Knuckles' stage songs in SA2 could also VA him. I mean, the songs are already (mostly) from his POV, so it makes sense? I dunno, I just like the softer-sounding Knuckles in the Adventure games and the second Sonic movie compared to the growly and angry-sounding Knuxes we've gotten for the past several years.
My favorite stages are treasure hunting. Mainly the ones from Rouge, as the ones from Knuckles are bigger maps and just look for objects, while the ones from Rouge have some extra challenge, like the water in Dry Lagoon, the security robot in Egg Quarters, the totally plenty five minutes of Security Hall and the gravity mechanic of Mad Space, but are smaller (But I don't like her stages only because they're smaller)
I like the Knuckles stages in SA1, but I hate them in SA2 (except maybe Pumpkin Hill)
Mad space was easy for me since everything was open all you had to do was check all the planets and such. DEATH CHAMBER THOUGH
After watching this video my perspective on the treasure hunting stages have changed from oh god I wanna off the game to these levels are not bad! Even if I got stuck, I still pushed through with my secret weapon: TH-cam. Thank you Chaomix you are awesome!
Honestly. The only thing inherently wrong with the Treasure stages, is the radar and Mad Space. The themes and level design are really unique, and the pieces being randomized adds many possibilities, for new routes. But, one good thing Mad Space did, was actually doing Super Mario Galaxy, before Super Mario Galaxy