Hey! Resident young player here. I am 18, I’ve been playing since I was nine and that’s because my dad was playing since the game came out. The game is addicting, the only hard part is how expensive the game is. I’ve tried to get my friends to play but it’s much easier to get them to play a 60 dollar xbox game with me than to buy a 100 dollar deck. The price point is the biggest restriction for young people
So true. If you don't have disposable income, this game isn't for you. Unless your playing low power low cost jenk or precons....hell the newer precons have been $60+.
Yeah but a commander precon is between 40-60 and I generally think they are well built and fun to play expecialy for newer players. Also they probably generally hold value better than an Xbox game.
@@elijahwalker323I think the podcast especially is looking at more from the perspective of competitive and 1v1 formats. Commander is definitely accessible, especially since proxying is completely accepted.
This is definitely the most restrictive part of magic and it’s probably why competitive magic is ACTUALLY dying. They can’t maintain the same amount of players because there simply isn’t enough people who can afford to try a format, not to mention GAINING more active players in a specific format
I think pauper might be a good solution to this. It's cheap enough that you can have multiple decks to teach people but they can also be simple without all the new mechanics. People also get to play with the classics like counterspell and lightning bolt. Then if they're interested they can get a deck for as cheap as 30 bucks. It is also not such a strong format that home brews can be viable. It's the perfect casual competitive format to introduce people to magic in my opinion.
Our group plays « multiverse standard » and it’s one of our favorite format. The rule is simple : you can play a deck that was once legal in standard. It’s oddly well balanced and the anachronous matchups make it more interesting.
It's simply the worst marketing, they don't seem to give a shit and it makes zero sense! I was at the biggest event of the year in Vegas last year, and that was badly done, I only knew because I sought it out. And the competitive events that are smaller they do even worse
I think this whole conversation just highlights why commander is so popular. You can play a 50 dollar deck and have fun. So it's a little more accessible there. You can have non sweaty games, so it is more inviting in that sense. Your kids can convince their friends to play, so it's also got that going for it.
Where do people who experience Commander like this live? This sounds like a fairy tale to me. The several places that I tried to play Commnader were all sweaty even at a casual level. I don't mind as I'm a competitive player at heart, but Commander doesn't lend itself well to quality competitive play for starters. Then needing to use good cards instead of having being able to use jank cards that don't get played anywhere else was also boring. So I was playing incomplete Legacy Singleton and it just wasn't fun.
@@sirKonradical what kind of fucking response is that, dude? You assume that I don't have friends because I went to THREE goddamn game stores, and only found a highly competitive Commander scene? You assume that the friends that I have who don't play card games at all give a shit about Commander? This is a legitimate problem for the life of this game. Or did you not listen to the podcast? They literally talk about how fewer and fewer young people play card games at all. If you can't find a game store to play the game, then why would you ever spend the money on the game? I was 20 when I started playing Magic in 1997. I had a lot of free time and money to burn. I LIVED at my local LGS. There were ALWAYS people there ready to play ANY of the formats available at the time. There was a Type 1 tournament on Friday evening on occasion. There were multiple Type 1.5 tournaments on Saturday or Sunday. There were Extened tourneys every other weekend. There was a Type 2 tourney every Saturday. You can NOT find that today. ALL you can find is Commander. Rule 0 is bullshit. Power rankings are bullshit. Turn 1 wins makes me not want to waste time shuffling up the deck, and I'm not spending money on a format that I don't even like to begin with. So again, I'll ask your rude, condescending ass one more time: where does one go to play jank Commander that isn't try hard mode with the newest broken cards? And you need to name a store. This game only exists today because of the LGS. Wizards is milking this game for all its worth and killing it in the process. But hey, with great community members like you, who are so fucking helpful, maybe Magic will survive another ten years in a sea of games that are just better than Magic is now.
@@Xoulrath_ Don't get hurt. You tried to be smart ass and I gave you an honest answer. You wanted to know where to find the kind of games I described and the place is with your friends you loser piece of shit
I agree with the age part. Everyone i play with are around 30 yrs old. I dont remember the last time i saw a kid playing magic at my lgs. I see them playing pokemon and lorcana tho. Seems like wotc havent been able to figure out how to usher in a younger player base. Guess they'll keep on riding the commander wave until that player base dies out lol.
One thing I remember a lot of early Magic players talk about is saving money to buy a couple pacts from their LGS and building from what they opened. That's how I started, and my playgroup too with the $20 Starter pacts. Nowadays, because of Hasbro/WOTC shortsighted gaze on money there are no products for younger people. They'd rather play a game that has Luffy or Venusaur on a card they can collect and play with and I can't say that the characters, story, or products WOTC makes meeting that same interest with their current vision. It's built for the 30+ year Olds who are all leaving due to focusing on other things.
I atarted playing back in dragons maze. Crims right about how there are new players, but the age group stays similar. Older players are also getting their peers into magic, like coworkers or old friends.
@mtggoldfish I know that not everyone loves Cedh, but recently a program was made similar to the old protour where players can get points and earn thier way to an end of year, big prize, high coverage event. Maybe you should look into that and do a podcast segment on it? I play in Cedh tournaments and its a pretty welcoming community where even the tournaments allow proxies so the entry cost isnt much.
I had a child interested in playing magic, I tried to teach, but the complexity of new cards is too much. I had to go back 10 years to find cards to even build deck with.
yeah complexity creep is for sure a thing, I dont really think its a giant issue, though. Much better to expand the game's design space than make strictly better cards, even though thats what they are doing as well...
@@stormycat0905 It seems to me that for quite some time the pattern for most players is to starting out playing Pokemon and then switching to MTG later. Specifically because it is a more complex game. That is what brings in the older players who are bored with the more simple games.
Idk we have young people show up at the LGS all the time and it isn't the complexity that scares them off(let's be real MtG attracts the I'm a big brain kind of person)it was the being curb stomped by every player with a fully fleshed put T1 deck. Who wants to go to the trouble of showing up at a place in person just to be farmed irl.
36:50 proxies You could just as easily buy four Ragavan from a vendor or TCG. Keep the receipt. Sell those anywhere. Then just play Proxy keeping the old receipt.
@jesperwinther518 ? Mtg30 wasn't promised to be anything other than a official non-tournament reprint set like the crap they used to make in the 90's that sells for hundreds on the secondary market
@@TheEvolver311 Mark Rosewater has said, written and PROMISED over nearly a decade (...) up until nearly 3 months pre MTG30, that the reserved list would never see a reprint, regardless of foiling-method (like 'from the vault' etc.), proxy-types and/or cardback type. Look it up. - straight lies. #SourceBlogAtog (...) Regardless, Its PR talk/political-tactics. Don't believe a word said, written or between the lines. Waste of time and pointless beliefs. (...) they'll lie and kill your kitten for a dollar.
@jesperwinther518 lol, not a reprint literally not valid for sanctioned play. Gotta say surprised to see a person caring about the reserve list. I have my og duels and other reserve list stuff and I'd rather they do away with the RL since I can't actually enjoy them anywhere anymore without taking a flight.
I’m 20 and I’ve been getting more and more of my friends into the game but none of us will ever spend significant money on it. We will just use tabletop simulator on steam or proxy cards for cubes
I 100% agree with Seth. Pioneer and Standard need to be unmarred by supplemental products. Modern is a weird middle-ground where you can add stuff to now, and Vintage/Legacy are the "all the cards" format that gets new stuff from SLD and EDH products. Leave Pioneer alone.
@54:00 - "All AI generated images need to be labelled with something that shows they're AI generated images" This idea is so silly to me, so many actual governments are passing these laws as we speak... how do you enforce it? The problem is we can't tell AI images from real ones, so how are you going to prove that people created something with AI and didn't label it, or said it was AI when it's real?? It's literally "begging the question" aka circular logic, in order to enforce the marking system, we have to be able to tell them apart in the first place - it is not a viable solution, yet it is literally exactly what so many nations are trying to do right now.
I’ve been to a TON of LGS’s in the Midwest area, mostly up by the Chicago suburbs, and I can 100% say I’ve gotten sold fake cards from the actual store. If I was a newer player that didn’t know any better I definitely would’ve gotten screwed out of my money but thankfully I’ve been playing for a while so I know when a card seems kind of off. I’m also not saying the stores themselves knew it was fake when they bought it, or even sold it, but there’s definitely a good chance there’s a lot more fakes out there in collections than we think there are.
Lack of marketing is DEFINITELY an issue. I'm someone who listens to Maguc podcasts and watches Magic content multiple times a week. I also live in Cincinnati, and I work ACROSS THE STREET from the convention center. You know how I found out about the event? Through work. The day before. Good work trying to get my money, SCG.
WOTC will just sell a pauper collector edition only with accompanying secret lairs where you can acquire the best paper cards in different treatments ( retro frame, surge foil, full art, etc.) They'll say something like: we inserted 300 masterpiece lotus petals in random collector boosters.
Cost, cost, cost. Frankly, people have less disposable income than 10 years ago. Cards also lose value extremely quickly and on an unexpected basis. When standard was driving prices, everyone knew the price cycle - big prices at the beginning and slowly decreasing as rotation approaches. Now, your $20 non-commander competitive card could be $7 after a random spoiler season. Finally, if WotC printed cards frequently enough that the cards weren't worth $50, then it wouldn't be worth counterfeiting them...?
I'm a teacher and work at an after school program as well. I started teaching some of the kids to play and they love it. I think it's just getting people who are willing to teach them and starting them off with simple decks like burn. I've found pauper decks work great or the starter decks. Just ease them into it. We need casual players first and then they may get into ot competitively later.
On the DQ. The DQ isn't required. Here are the 3 outcomes. 1. Deck Error - Warning - Replace the cards in a reasonable amount of time and keep playing. (Judge believes strongly you didn't know they were fake) 2. Decklist Error - Game Loss - If you cant replace the cards or don't want to replace them with basic lands and update the decklist. (Judge believes strongly you didn't know they were fake) 3. Unsportsman like Conduct: Cheating - If the judge(s) believe you knew the cards were fake you land here. This happens if you admit it, the printing is bad enough that you should have known, or through the investigation the judge feels like you should have known (i.e. I got this dual for like 5 bucks from some dude outside). Its *really* important to get these right when we share the information else we end up starting witchhunts. We don't like DQing people but we just have to enforce the rules as written to maintain fairness and consistency.
For those of us in the creative arts where AI can threaten to push us out of the corporate/licensing/paid work situation, accepting AI generated art represents our livelihood dying. And, it's dying to thieves, on a fundamental level. Our training, practice and sacrifices, chasing a dream of working for ourselves, doing what we love, and making a decent living as we do, are all being threatened. I don't know how you guys in MtGGoldfish make your money, but imagine whatever work you've done over the years was suddenly dissolved, and others were using your means to take money in your place. And, then you're left only with going back to a cubical, a warehouse, or whatever. That fear is what's driving outrage, at least mine.
If your worried about AI “art” taking your job I’d suggest watching @TheArtMentor on TH-cam. He has a lot of videos on AI “art” that helped me feel a lot less concerned about it taking over creative industries.
MY playgroup started with MtG on a whim by buying Core Set 2014 deck builder toolkits plus intro pack each. We were in high school at the time and on a budglet. We played intro pack level jank in our little meta bubble for a year or so and then we stopped. Then we picked up MtG again years after and our jank decks again and starting to slowly buy playsets and making them into actual (but still casual) decks. We never played any format, we just called it 60-card. Now we are into commander and all of us have a EDH deck that is couple of hundreds of Euros worth. Still - we only play in our playgroup (no LGS in my town) buuut this is a story how we started as kids but stuck around. What kept us in was a combination of superb art, depth and lore. Not marketing and tournaments.
The Horizon sets for Legacy and beyond are Battlebond and Conspiracy. I really enjoyed those products. Not much in the way of busted stuff, but with an amount of fun variety that let the timmy in me do janky things. Things like the battlebond duals were also nice for semi-budget EDH segues. I'm totally fine with cheating the reserved list into play ;)
Seth: What do you do if you suspect your opponent is playing fake cards in a tournament? Richard You sweat them out! Crim: I dont know, am I winning, or loosing? whats the matchup? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, omg I died with that interchange! Love you guys
I’m one of the “fresh blood” (16)that richards been talking about (started war of the spark) and In my opinion the problem is multi step 1. There’s almost 0 advertisement, I only learned of mtg cause my friend who was bored of playing yugioh LOOKED for another game. 2. Structure decks other then commander decks actually look like brick and are way to rare to find 3. How wizard deals with dual lands, they’re always rare and do you know hard it it to convince someone to spend $40 on cards that just sit there? Not to mention that this locks players into 1-3 colors instead of interacting with all 5.
my reason the tournament scene is down is because we don't get paper tournaments on Twitch every weekend with good coverage. killing the GPs where any scrub can get lucky and have other stuff going on if you scrub out. now it's so expensive just to get in there's no point donating to the winners as well.
Pioneer will eventually find itself in the same cul-de-sac as pre-Horizons Modern found itself in, where in order for new cards to break into the format they will have to be either too good for Standard or necessarily format-warping. Balance mistakes will always continue to accumulate, unless you implement a very aggressive banlist.
I'm rather disappointed on the complete failure to understand why people were mad about AI art. I thought the issue was pretty well understood in the MTG space but if the three of you together couldn't directly articulate why people are upset about AI art "even for the background of a promo" then Seth should probably do a video on it because there's clearly a need. AI art and AI in general is extremely controversial but not really because of the quality of art it can make (right now pretty garbo) or the value associated with that art it produces from a consumer side of things it's a LABOR ISSUE. I'm surprised Seth missed this because his tweet about Dave Rapoza leaving is how I found out about the incident in the first place (Rapoza talks a bit more about how he feels about AI art on his twitter page). Most artists view AI art as THEFT for pretty legitimate reasons. AI art uses massive databases of other people's real art that they scrape together to train the AI and usually don't compensate or even credit the artists. This is a pretty big deal for artists considering this "tool" is being used to cheapen or replace the work they do as their livelihood. It's particularly topical for MTG artists considering "AI Art Generator Allegedly Scraped Magic: The Gathering Cards For Material" is the title of a recent Kotaku article by Kenneth Shepard, discussing the current ongoing lawsuit against AI art company Midjourney. If you missed the recent actors and writers strikes that dominated media this summer the need for safeguards against AI was a component of both strikes. This type of tech is being pushed by companies to try and lower the wages of workers and cut costs even if the tech isn't there quite yet. Job security might also be something people are thinking about a little more in regards to wizards considering the recent layoffs while producing record profits. People aren't mad Wizards used bad art they're mad they used something that threatens the livelihood of artists and a lot of the community values artists and the art they create and people have caught them doing it twice now and they're initial response was doubling down. I'm willing to believe that this new tech could be starting to saturate the industry by people trying to cut corners and this is a mistake by Wizards getting caught off guard without the processes in place to stop it from happening but if it happens again IDK how they're going to get anyone to trust them.
Anything AI related needs to have push back because it is too easy for any company to cut a majority of their artists as soon as people are ok with AI art
Richard, you can buypass nfcs too. In fact, its even easier to do then replicate stamps or card quality. The only fix is for Wizards to allow proxies, as a store runner i've run into proxies that needed a legitimate microscope for me to tell the difference. Edit: No, WOTC needs to be held accountable for their art as AI is the death of the game, bar none. And they've already had enough issues with plagiarism and tracing from the past few years with pushing more sets and still wanting to pay artist's less.
There will always be ways to counterfeit, as long as the cards have value, some people will try. If you have really expensive cards the easiest way to check them is the red dot test.
As a professional graphic designer that has worked with Fortune 500 companies for almost 15 years, the AI art drama is pretty stupid. Seth nailed it by explaining it's an advertisement, not literal card art. Professional industry standard tools for photo retouching / comping now include generative AI features. It's literally built into the software and workflows of companies in a way that you don't just "undo" or "stop". You can make the argument that it's a slippery slope, and you would have history on your side, that if Wizards uses any form of AI for marketing materials it's only a matter of time before they slash their artist roster to utilize AI art for actual cards being printed. I think Wizards should pay their current, real artists more money, but I don't think WOTC should be burned at the stake for marketing materials being Photoshopped poorly.
I’m firmly convinced that paper MTG’s barriers are purely logistical/financial. D&D is more popular than ever, including with younger people - the difference is the cost and learning curve of getting settled into MTG. The game itself is overflowing with great flavor, mechanics, design, etc., and moreover provides a fantastic answer to the “third spaces” problems young generations face. But, the environment needs to be right (and barriers low enough) for new/potential players to get hooked.
The end result of having counterfeit cards being a DQ, regardless of intent, and the prevalence of counterfeit cards, is that if you are at a serious tournament, your opponent plays a card, it's older than the holofoil stamp and in near mint condition, it will be objectively correct to call a judge for a deck-check.
I found the part discussing older and younger audiences especially interesting as i find myself to be the opposite of what you guys talked about. I'm a young (20) newcomer to the game this year and i actually got into the game because of in universe stuff, and for the most part don't like all these new universes beyond sets. I really hope they tone that down for 2025. I also regularly check large pioneer tournaments' top 8 finishes to improve my explorer deck on arena as i would love to try competing one day, although for now am limited financially. Anyways, I love listening to all your talks in this and the commander podcast, and I'm looking forward to more content this year!
I think chicago will be a massive success for the mtg scene there will be alot of people there more so then other magicons i believe as i personally know of at 100+ people going form my local lgs's it feels like everyone is going 23 from my lags got vip
The discussion about card games with players coming from only other TCGs and being generally an older crowd seems really similar to some of the problems that fighting games have with getting people into the genre. Generally getting someone into a fighting game is a harder sell than getting someone into something like League or CS. This has changed a lot though recently and fighting games have gone through a huge revival by having much better online, and being far more accessible to new players by giving them options for easier inputs and control schemes so that the game doesn't have as big of a learning barrier. There's also been a lot more cheap or even free to play fighting games that have released. Convincing someone to pick up the latest Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Guilty Gear, or Tekken at full price + Season Pass(es) is a huge monetary investment for a genre that they may just bounce right off of. The increase in cheap/free to play options have been amazing for letting people try out the genre and onboarding new players before they make an investment into the more expensive mainstream titles. There will also always be the problem that Magic, like Fighting Games, is a 1v1 game. It takes a certain kind of person to have fun in those kinds of games cause you need to have fun while losing and not be able to blame your losses on something else (Magic slightly less so cause of variance but still). The only way to get new players into magic is by having it be more accessible from a price standpoint, and easier to understand from a gameplay standpoint. Standard is the best place for new players, but standard needs to be more accessible from a complexity standpoint and a price standpoint.
So, I think it should be clarified that basically the entire AI controversy over the weekend is about WotC saying they won't use anything with AI, then in response to people pointing out the use in the ad campaign, they immediately claimed that it wasn't AI instead of actually assessing and apologizing. I think there are ultimately very few folks who would have faulted WotC for taking a less severe approach to the use of AI in things (something like, we do not plan to use AI in anything but as industry standards change, it may end up used by 3rd parties that we interact with), but they have been SO vocal that they will avoid it that it makes the situation a mess for them when this stuff happens. Also, it definitely seems like y'all arent familiar enough with how AI stuff works, cause the idea of embedding something within the output of generators that can't be easily circumvented by anyone with even slight knowledge is just laughable. Not to mention that someone can rig their own generator that runs locally on their computer with little to no fuss, and obviously that could just avoid doing the embedding altogether. So, there is no logistical way to force people to be honest. Regardless of how someone thinks about AI generators, at the very least it should be easy to agree that lying about using them in a process or not is scummy behavior.
I played Magic since I was 14, when revised was out. Issues I see in the past 6 years. 1. Standard bannings. Standard died durring all of the energy bans. All the college students stopped playing competitively in my area during that time. 2. Modern horizons. All the boomers decks were rotated out, so they stopped playing. 3. No feature matches. I went to tournaments to lose to a pro on camera. I played in 6 scg events and 18 GPs. In a 5 year period. I ended up in the Feature matches a handful of times, and lost on camera to another spike. I never went to win, times I cashed it was a bonus. With the MH3 announcement I ended up selling my modern collection, as I'm now a boomer who no longer wants to spend to keep up.
Yes, WotC gave out that Ragavan, but that was at a special event, not just a local tournament. If we look at the average FNM promo, value wise, 2-5 bucks. If they would just finally give out stuff like shock lands, instead of pay-walling the most important cards, local tournaments would be jam packed, period. And the best way to stop people from faking cards? Reprint expensive cards. No one would even to think about faking Ragavans, selling them to stores and laughing about the 300 bucks easily made, if Ragavan would be readily available. All the offshoot reprint sets of Magic should reprint everything, especially competitive cards, at a decent rarity, in a normal priced set. Obviously not gonna happen, but hey. YGO reprints far more often, and is not going bankrupt. Who would've guessed that, most people buy products because of exiting new cards and reprints, no matter the actual value of the cards. (Not that chase Secrets Rares do not exist, but they are far and few between.) Plus the model of having low rarities of cards and having the fancy foiling being on the same card of a higher rarity helps.
I tried to teach my girlfriend Magic. Got us a couple of intro decks. The card complexity was too much for her, and it intimidated her. We haven't tried playing since. Not a single vanilla creature in either deck, and multiple cards had several lines of rules-intensive text. I will try to teach her again, but with homemade intro decks with simple effects (like it should be...)
Man i came back to magic at a weird time. All these universes beyond cards, potential horizon sets, power creep galore, ai art stuff. Strange strange times.
Going through some old stuff and found some of my old decks and what not so i decided to maybe get back into it. I just started researching what's going on in the mtg world.
@@windwaker01 i agree with that 100%. Seems like a nothing burger and i think wizards is being honest when they're like "hey, we didn't know about this right away".
This is funny to me because creatures have been consistently power creeped year after year since about 2006 when WotC actively refocused design towards facilitating mid-range creature strategies. Like honestly I think every year we've had a push in power creep, it's just that in 2006 creatures sucked so the creep had further to move than non-creature spells since WotC stared the game with way over powered instants, sorcery, and artifact spells.
25:37 this is the single biggest reason(weather players want to admit it or not) why the game is no longer accessible to newer(younger) players. I remember when I started playing the game was cost prohibitive(this was 2004!). I couldn’t imagine being a teenager in today’s game climate trying to compete against 1000$+ decks with whatever allowance my parents give me(lmao). And also… on the age thing. Wizards needs to push harder on mgta. And that means making it truly competitive. And not a glorified gacha game.
I despise Richard's solution to fakes 🤣 Short story time: when I was young I thought people playing in the "grand prix" or whatever gave WotC the decklists they qualified with and they were given the decks to ensure no weird business was happening. Oh boy I was so wrong! I had no idea WotC was lazy af when it came to pro tournaments.
People play with their own cards, why would they be given decks? A competitive deck is a few hundred dollars, cards are not given for free. Even assuming that was a thing, how exactly do you handle the logistics of handing cards over to 2k players and getting them back? Or do you want wizards to check the authenticity of tens of thousands of cards every event? All the above is completely unrealistic, unlike Richard's take, which sounds much more doable.
Sure, not when it's still thousands of people, but it wouldn't be that big of a deal when you get to the top 8 (also as a kid when I thought it was like that I didn't think they'd get to take the decks with them). Anyway, chips on cards is as unrealistic as wotc giving out decks for free, but with more downside for the regular player.
Sadly, when the disaster that was _Magic 30_ happened, the bright-siders all raised their hands and coombaiyaahed "Proxys are okay now!" This banhammering DQ swing is a resounding response of *NO THEY ARE NOT OKAY*
I have seen people just getting a game loss for fake cards. Then needing to promptly provide real cards to replace the fake ones. This provides someone who doesn’t know they acquired fake cards a chance to compete. Judges have done this in the past. Can you imagine showing up to a tournament, buying hundreds of dollars of cards from vendors, then losing because of a DQ to fake cards?
No need to imagine, that's what happened. I hardly see how the guy could have provided 4 genuine copies of Ragavan on the spot, unless someone was willing to lend him. Sad but it doesn't take much effort to check your 75 cards before entering a tournament. The other players were fine so it's not a generalised issue. If anything, I do think it's on WOTC to make more effort to guarantee card's authenticity.
@CrunchyEdiblesML nope. You're saying ridiculous nonsense like Gen-Z has to much social anxiety to show up at the lgs. If they want to they will, we have video game tournaments at my LGS also and its pretty much all Gen-Z kids showing up for those.
The DQ issue with fake cards at tournaments is really easy to solve; upon entry, every deck is inspected by a judge appointed by Wizards to verifty the authenticity of the cards. If it gets passed that check, then no one can call a DQ for that specific thing - not a judge, not a player. If it doesn't, then the player has 24 or 48 or whatever hours to try and replace those or they can't enter. I might be missing something - I've never done anything like a sanctioned tournament, but I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't be a much better option. I guess that's potentially a lot of work, so maybe you only do it in the Top 8 or 16?
Too many players, too many cards. Some fakes can only be reliably identified using a jeweler's loupe or weighing the cards. Do you need every player to unsleeve, hand over and resleeves their $1k deck every tournament? Besides, judges are rules expert, I don't believe spotting fakes is part of their qualifications. That just doesn't sound realistic. Plus what's the point? At the end of the day, playing with a fake doesn't provide a competitive advantage. Do your due diligence, make sure you don't come with fakes. And if you do, don't complain when you get caught and DQ.
@@guico33 Honest question - if the judgest aren't able to spot fakes, then who determines whether a card is a fake or not? Someone there should be an expert, no? And look, players aren't necessarily experts at spotting fakes either, and spotting fakes - especially with newer Magic - takes a lot of experience and knowledge. Sure there are some well-known methods for older cards (the light test, green dot test, bend test, etc.), but those don't apply to many of the newer sets. With many new sets, the paper and print quality can vary quite a bit, even between SKUs in the same set. The ink can be different, the paper can be different, the paper CORE can be different, the weight of the font can be different - they even smell different. Combine that with improving conterfeits - it really takes a lot to truly spot. I agree that having every player check their deck isn't realistic, but I also don't think it's realistic to expect them to adequately self inspect. And the whole point, to me anyway, is that it's really shitty to get DQed from an event for something that, as you accurately stated, gives no competitive advantage. I would think it would be better to try and come up with a way to sort through that before you get halfway through your top 8 game. Perhaps they only check the top 8? Or maybe they simply provide an authentication expert on site and players can voluntarily submit their deck for a fake check beforehand. If it checks out, that deck/side board is good for the rest of the tournement. If not, they have an opportunity to try and replace the card in question before they spend all that time and effort in a tournement. And any player who hasn't gone through that check would be subject to a mid-game check and potential DQ. Even then, you're not wrong that it presents logistics problems. What Wizards really needs to do is reign in their card quality and make it consistent, and probably look into some sort of micro authentication methods. Micro authentication is a really fascinating field and there are all sorts of really ingenious, simple ways to essentially "brand" something in a way that is subtle and unique. Maybe they have unique identifiers for each set, or even each print run. My understanding is that some such method was used on the 1/1 One Ring - the grading company called Wizards and somehow verified that it was real. They'd still have to internally keep track of those and have someone on site who could check, though. And I guess that doesn't really help STORES know what's legit, unless Wizards has a way that stores can verify authenticity with them. But at least having someone on site to check can help players from something as shitty as a DQ in the top 8. Of course, all of this costs money which means it probably won't happen with current leadership. I honestly think it's in their best interest to come up with SOME solution. Wizards wants these tournements to promote and sell the game, but if their own issues with quality make it difficult for stores and players to spot fakes, and that winds up getting people tossed out of tournements, I don't think that looks good for the brand. But hey, maybe they really don't feel like the tournements do much to sell product, so maybe they won't ever really give enough of a shit to do anything.
The game is simply too expensive and the there is no attachment for youger people They need a show or movie or some way to introduce youger crowd to the universe of mtg not necessarily the game itself but the the lore and the characters and they will naturally find the game and start to play
Well unfortunately the lore of Magic kinda sucks and has never really been a attraction for why people start to play. Sure some people get into it after they get into the game but not beforehand.
@@Epicgaming1990 most other card games are attached to some pre-existing IP that attracts attention to the game. WotC is trying to gain that element with Universes Beyond sets because at 30 years in the MtG IP is not going to suddenly grab everyone's eyes, at least not for a positive reason maybe if they do some terribly regressive stuff that generates public outcry against it.
Not sure if you guys read the comments on the cast but I'll shoot anyway. As a young person, not the fortnite crowd but only just out of college a few years. Im a super competitive person, love to compete. But its just way too expensive. In Europe where I live, there are about 6 big events a year, none of them are in my country. 120$ entry fee, a flight, a hotel, and a deck. Im in a place in my life where Im struggling to pay my almost 3000$ rent (thats not a flex btw, its a 2bed apartment). And Im fortunate enough to work in Pharmaceuticals, I simply cant justify spending a thousand plus euros for an afternoon of magic.
Gah crim says “like” more than any Starbucks white girl even.. “like, I think the like competitive market like just doesn’t have like the marketing that like casual has”
What about instead of Pioneer Horizons, we got Pioneer Masters with a bunch of reprints and intriguing cards that have been powercrept out of modern to the format - Bob, JTMS, Goyf, etc?
@@burnsboy101 not whoosh at all, go look what either Maro or Aaron Forsythe said about why they couldn't do this with Modern and you'll know why it won't happen.
Technically I played magic for about a year as a kid. Had a single mono blue kamigawa precon. Started actually playing when the Zendikar Rising/Commander Legends was new. I love this game, but it's annoyingly expensive that every deck (Commander) that I make is at minimum $200, but after I've played it for a while and upgraded it, it sits closer to $500+. I do own a few precons I play from time to time, so I can see kids being able to pick up a precon for $40 and have a good time, but the fun of customizing the deck is pretty out of reach (Unless you're Tomer lol). Also I'm 28 btw so yea in the average demographic lmao.
53:34 I’m not saying AI art is a non-issue. But the biggest problem is artists not getting credit or losing jobs. Since all the cards have an artists name attached to them it’ll be really easy to tell if wizards faked it. If they make a AI Seb McKenna card and he’s like “I didn’t make that” then you’ll know it’s fake. An artist may try to pass off AI art which is its own issue but in my mind the biggest thing is not getting art from artists
Richard saying fortnight and tiktok made me flintch. Yes i am almost 30. Edit: make sure your kid starts before 6 or 7 and if they start to like it at that point you might have got a player for life.
The best way to resolve a disqualification situation would be to give the player the option to buy new cards on the spot, or give him a counter fit for the duration of the tournament. Secure the cards and then check them for 100% accuracy. If they are fake, destroy them and initiate an investigation.
@@TheEvolver311 Exactly because that was top 8, it was bit too late. Previously, yes, absolutely. At the highest level of the game, only skills should count.
@@MrJakubxXx the rule states its a DQ if he wants to play with proxies cool do that at the kitchen table. These things were verified fake rather quickly by the judges so....I'd maybe believe he didn't intend to proxy them if his entire playset wasn't proxies, that would mean a vendor at the location was just selling proxies 100% which I doubt that seriously.
09:45 pauper decks for 10 bucks would be a good way to get people into pauper and fire events. new art would make old player consider buying them as well (or stores opening the decks) around 28:25 yugioh has the same problem of getting new players (in the west at least). imo that is because of the way the companies run their games. still this is a new world and both mtg and ygo are relics of the past. the gathering of mtg are the online communities of today. kids dont need to go anywhere to have fun and be with their friends. add to that the fact that kids these days have acess to countless free to play games, including card games. card games are expensive and should not be. otherwise they cannot compete. mtg is the "only" card game that was sucessfull with a companion media product. it is the best game but pkm and ygo had had and have their anime and manga to grab their audiance. it is the same for almost every new game like vanguard, digimon legends of runeterra and one piece. mtg dropped the ball on their long term plan by not investing in a quality anime, not to mention the novels.
I mean what were trading card games or even the more prehistoric CRPG’s back in the day but simply what people made do with based on the technology available to them at the time in the attempt to make DnD more real to people than just rule books and whatever the game masters says.
(former modern player) The reason less people play tournaments/magic in general is the same reason I stop playing magic. It's not fun to lose anymore. I've lost 4 times more than I've ever won and I'd had tons of fun until around mh1 came out. I used to have a chance to win with my jank pile, I am not even sure that a 1000 dollar deck would be fun to lose with based on how some match ups play out. If the majority of players lose and it's not fun to lose then it's not a game that people will return too. It's the same way with a video game. If it's not fun to game over in a game then I will stop playing. But if I think man if I just dodged one more hit I would of won I'll keep playing and trying to get better. Magic doesn't. Magic "interactions" are the same as they used too. To be honest it's more fun to watch a lurrus grindy deck than to watch someone take all the cards from someone's hand on turn one. So I bet playing that is even worse
Respectfully that’s only one specific format. Doesn’t explain how every format essentially loses player base except commander or cube if you count that
Thats why I specified my format but I think it has to do with standard too. There is something in the way they design cards that makes losing not fun. Commander players ban cards within friend groups and cube players hand pick the cards in there cube so Id say it still does apply in a way. The only formats that are 'growing' are formats where there is a custom ban list.@@jamesgreenwood1703
It’s so complex with all these infinite synergies and went from slow and playing your whole deck in a grind for victory. Now it’s ungodly expensive for a good deck and you have a good chance to lose turn 3. I’m likely done with magic this year if it doesn’t stop getting more expensive and has become less fun the more broken cards become. It’s no longer the game I fell in love with.
To comment on the age of the player base, i'll likely stop playing magic within the next 2-3 years if WOTC's trajectory remains consistent. The cost to enter, release schedule, and time investment required to remain in the loop becomes less sustainable now that I've reached my 30s
I don’t have any problems with people using proxies. Fake cards should be marked in some way so that they’re not sold at value, but why would I care in play? Magic is pay to win anyway, I’d rather keep that barrier as low as possible.
Commander Championz. here is a few ideas • Reprint Legendary creature/planswalker that have been printed 1-2 times or only in foil. • New Commander untapped lands or commander specific lands. • A new cycle of Will cards (Jeska’s Will, for example). • More colorless specific ramp (i mean, play additional Wastes) • Uncommon multicolored Partner commanders. • A Trophy for Richard and the Goldfish crew. Leave a comment below if you also have any ideas 💡.
Hey! Resident young player here. I am 18, I’ve been playing since I was nine and that’s because my dad was playing since the game came out. The game is addicting, the only hard part is how expensive the game is. I’ve tried to get my friends to play but it’s much easier to get them to play a 60 dollar xbox game with me than to buy a 100 dollar deck. The price point is the biggest restriction for young people
So true. If you don't have disposable income, this game isn't for you. Unless your playing low power low cost jenk or precons....hell the newer precons have been $60+.
Yeah but a commander precon is between 40-60 and I generally think they are well built and fun to play expecialy for newer players. Also they probably generally hold value better than an Xbox game.
@@elijahwalker323I think the podcast especially is looking at more from the perspective of competitive and 1v1 formats. Commander is definitely accessible, especially since proxying is completely accepted.
This is definitely the most restrictive part of magic and it’s probably why competitive magic is ACTUALLY dying. They can’t maintain the same amount of players because there simply isn’t enough people who can afford to try a format, not to mention GAINING more active players in a specific format
I think pauper might be a good solution to this. It's cheap enough that you can have multiple decks to teach people but they can also be simple without all the new mechanics. People also get to play with the classics like counterspell and lightning bolt. Then if they're interested they can get a deck for as cheap as 30 bucks. It is also not such a strong format that home brews can be viable. It's the perfect casual competitive format to introduce people to magic in my opinion.
excited for this cast, I simply love theatre!
edit: bad news, guys
Hahaha GAY!!!! 😅😂🎉
Our group plays « multiverse standard » and it’s one of our favorite format. The rule is simple : you can play a deck that was once legal in standard. It’s oddly well balanced and the anachronous matchups make it more interesting.
That sounds pretty fun
Im guessing you ban cards that were banned in their standard format? Otherwise Tolarian Academy combo and Affinity would rule the format
My playgroup is switching to Pre-modern. Fun decks that are affordable and the format is limited to a set number of sets.
@@AMageOldAsDirt Better than that : we ban players without pride or ethic! 😂
We call it super standard, and it's a great eternal format.
I live in Cincinnati and had absolutely no idea that this SCG was happening. There would’ve been far more people there if they had marketed it at all
It's simply the worst marketing, they don't seem to give a shit and it makes zero sense! I was at the biggest event of the year in Vegas last year, and that was badly done, I only knew because I sought it out. And the competitive events that are smaller they do even worse
Seth's comment about Core Sets being Standard Horizons sets hits different (and hits well).
Core sets should be the reprint sets, not Master or Horizon sets.
That was his point.@@stormycat0905
Getting younger folks into magic is going to require a better digital presence/experience and cheaper paper.
I think this whole conversation just highlights why commander is so popular. You can play a 50 dollar deck and have fun. So it's a little more accessible there. You can have non sweaty games, so it is more inviting in that sense. Your kids can convince their friends to play, so it's also got that going for it.
Where do people who experience Commander like this live? This sounds like a fairy tale to me. The several places that I tried to play Commnader were all sweaty even at a casual level. I don't mind as I'm a competitive player at heart, but Commander doesn't lend itself well to quality competitive play for starters. Then needing to use good cards instead of having being able to use jank cards that don't get played anywhere else was also boring. So I was playing incomplete Legacy Singleton and it just wasn't fun.
@@Xoulrath_ You need to get friends then.
@@sirKonradical what kind of fucking response is that, dude? You assume that I don't have friends because I went to THREE goddamn game stores, and only found a highly competitive Commander scene? You assume that the friends that I have who don't play card games at all give a shit about Commander?
This is a legitimate problem for the life of this game. Or did you not listen to the podcast? They literally talk about how fewer and fewer young people play card games at all. If you can't find a game store to play the game, then why would you ever spend the money on the game?
I was 20 when I started playing Magic in 1997. I had a lot of free time and money to burn. I LIVED at my local LGS. There were ALWAYS people there ready to play ANY of the formats available at the time. There was a Type 1 tournament on Friday evening on occasion. There were multiple Type 1.5 tournaments on Saturday or Sunday. There were Extened tourneys every other weekend. There was a Type 2 tourney every Saturday.
You can NOT find that today. ALL you can find is Commander. Rule 0 is bullshit. Power rankings are bullshit. Turn 1 wins makes me not want to waste time shuffling up the deck, and I'm not spending money on a format that I don't even like to begin with.
So again, I'll ask your rude, condescending ass one more time: where does one go to play jank Commander that isn't try hard mode with the newest broken cards? And you need to name a store. This game only exists today because of the LGS. Wizards is milking this game for all its worth and killing it in the process. But hey, with great community members like you, who are so fucking helpful, maybe Magic will survive another ten years in a sea of games that are just better than Magic is now.
@@Xoulrath_ Don't get hurt. You tried to be smart ass and I gave you an honest answer. You wanted to know where to find the kind of games I described and the place is with your friends you loser piece of shit
@@Xoulrath_ 🤣 You raged like a bitch. That's hilarious
There was a cube horizon. It was the Comspiracy sets and they were incredible
re: the AI art, if they care about whether the cards are real we should care about whether artists are real.
I agree with the age part. Everyone i play with are around 30 yrs old. I dont remember the last time i saw a kid playing magic at my lgs. I see them playing pokemon and lorcana tho. Seems like wotc havent been able to figure out how to usher in a younger player base. Guess they'll keep on riding the commander wave until that player base dies out lol.
One thing I remember a lot of early Magic players talk about is saving money to buy a couple pacts from their LGS and building from what they opened. That's how I started, and my playgroup too with the $20 Starter pacts.
Nowadays, because of Hasbro/WOTC shortsighted gaze on money there are no products for younger people. They'd rather play a game that has Luffy or Venusaur on a card they can collect and play with and I can't say that the characters, story, or products WOTC makes meeting that same interest with their current vision. It's built for the 30+ year Olds who are all leaving due to focusing on other things.
A jewlers loop is only about $8 and can detect gake cards. Kinda lame you need one but it's good to keep one on hand when buying expensive cards.
OR let proxies exist since they sold proxies for $1000
I think it's the fact that they just said they weren't going to do it, then didn't check, and right after laying off a bunch of artists.
I atarted playing back in dragons maze. Crims right about how there are new players, but the age group stays similar. Older players are also getting their peers into magic, like coworkers or old friends.
@mtggoldfish
I know that not everyone loves Cedh, but recently a program was made similar to the old protour where players can get points and earn thier way to an end of year, big prize, high coverage event. Maybe you should look into that and do a podcast segment on it? I play in Cedh tournaments and its a pretty welcoming community where even the tournaments allow proxies so the entry cost isnt much.
I had a child interested in playing magic, I tried to teach, but the complexity of new cards is too much. I had to go back 10 years to find cards to even build deck with.
yeah complexity creep is for sure a thing, I dont really think its a giant issue, though. Much better to expand the game's design space than make strictly better cards, even though thats what they are doing as well...
Yeah, some of the new games are simpler, cheaper and more fun to play. MTG has a high hill to climb to become relevant to younger players.
Pauper is generally simple. Stuff around Experimental Synthesizer can get complicated, but there are quite a few good decks that are simple and cheap.
@@stormycat0905
It seems to me that for quite some time the pattern for most players is to starting out playing Pokemon and then switching to MTG later. Specifically because it is a more complex game. That is what brings in the older players who are bored with the more simple games.
Idk we have young people show up at the LGS all the time and it isn't the complexity that scares them off(let's be real MtG attracts the I'm a big brain kind of person)it was the being curb stomped by every player with a fully fleshed put T1 deck. Who wants to go to the trouble of showing up at a place in person just to be farmed irl.
36:50 proxies
You could just as easily buy four Ragavan from a vendor or TCG. Keep the receipt. Sell those anywhere. Then just play Proxy keeping the old receipt.
Pioneer was made with a "promise" from wizards to never have a masters or horizons set. That's why I like it.
Source
Lol... A Promise from Wiz.
(...) ever heard of MTG30? 🤣
@jesperwinther518 ? Mtg30 wasn't promised to be anything other than a official non-tournament reprint set like the crap they used to make in the 90's that sells for hundreds on the secondary market
@@TheEvolver311 Mark Rosewater has said, written and PROMISED over nearly a decade (...) up until nearly 3 months pre MTG30, that the reserved list would never see a reprint, regardless of foiling-method (like 'from the vault' etc.), proxy-types and/or cardback type.
Look it up.
- straight lies.
#SourceBlogAtog
(...) Regardless,
Its PR talk/political-tactics.
Don't believe a word said, written or between the lines. Waste of time and pointless beliefs.
(...) they'll lie and kill your kitten for a dollar.
@jesperwinther518 lol, not a reprint literally not valid for sanctioned play.
Gotta say surprised to see a person caring about the reserve list. I have my og duels and other reserve list stuff and I'd rather they do away with the RL since I can't actually enjoy them anywhere anymore without taking a flight.
My kids (15) love Magic and enjoy drafts and constructed and Commander. But we’re big gamers in general.
There are a lot of cEDH tournaments are proxy friendly so keep doing what you are doing.
I live in cincy and didn't know about scg con cincy until just now from you all, so yes marketing is lacking.
I’m 20 and I’ve been getting more and more of my friends into the game but none of us will ever spend significant money on it. We will just use tabletop simulator on steam or proxy cards for cubes
29 and never felt more like an old man.....thx Richard,
I 100% agree with Seth. Pioneer and Standard need to be unmarred by supplemental products. Modern is a weird middle-ground where you can add stuff to now, and Vintage/Legacy are the "all the cards" format that gets new stuff from SLD and EDH products. Leave Pioneer alone.
Yup glad Saffron Olive learned his lesson
@54:00 - "All AI generated images need to be labelled with something that shows they're AI generated images"
This idea is so silly to me, so many actual governments are passing these laws as we speak... how do you enforce it?
The problem is we can't tell AI images from real ones, so how are you going to prove that people created something with AI and didn't label it, or said it was AI when it's real??
It's literally "begging the question" aka circular logic, in order to enforce the marking system, we have to be able to tell them apart in the first place - it is not a viable solution, yet it is literally exactly what so many nations are trying to do right now.
I’ve been to a TON of LGS’s in the Midwest area, mostly up by the Chicago suburbs, and I can 100% say I’ve gotten sold fake cards from the actual store. If I was a newer player that didn’t know any better I definitely would’ve gotten screwed out of my money but thankfully I’ve been playing for a while so I know when a card seems kind of off.
I’m also not saying the stores themselves knew it was fake when they bought it, or even sold it, but there’s definitely a good chance there’s a lot more fakes out there in collections than we think there are.
Lack of marketing is DEFINITELY an issue. I'm someone who listens to Maguc podcasts and watches Magic content multiple times a week. I also live in Cincinnati, and I work ACROSS THE STREET from the convention center. You know how I found out about the event? Through work. The day before. Good work trying to get my money, SCG.
WOTC will just sell a pauper collector edition only with accompanying secret lairs where you can acquire the best paper cards in different treatments ( retro frame, surge foil, full art, etc.) They'll say something like: we inserted 300 masterpiece lotus petals in random collector boosters.
Happy new year! 🎉
Edit:
Also how dare you call me old Richard! *coughs, throws out back*
Cost, cost, cost. Frankly, people have less disposable income than 10 years ago. Cards also lose value extremely quickly and on an unexpected basis. When standard was driving prices, everyone knew the price cycle - big prices at the beginning and slowly decreasing as rotation approaches.
Now, your $20 non-commander competitive card could be $7 after a random spoiler season.
Finally, if WotC printed cards frequently enough that the cards weren't worth $50, then it wouldn't be worth counterfeiting them...?
It also wouldn't be worth it for your LGS to sell them.
What ever old man, we’re gonna keep rocking forever, forever,forever….
I'm a teacher and work at an after school program as well. I started teaching some of the kids to play and they love it. I think it's just getting people who are willing to teach them and starting them off with simple decks like burn. I've found pauper decks work great or the starter decks. Just ease them into it. We need casual players first and then they may get into ot competitively later.
On the DQ. The DQ isn't required. Here are the 3 outcomes.
1. Deck Error - Warning - Replace the cards in a reasonable amount of time and keep playing. (Judge believes strongly you didn't know they were fake)
2. Decklist Error - Game Loss - If you cant replace the cards or don't want to replace them with basic lands and update the decklist. (Judge believes strongly you didn't know they were fake)
3. Unsportsman like Conduct: Cheating - If the judge(s) believe you knew the cards were fake you land here. This happens if you admit it, the printing is bad enough that you should have known, or through the investigation the judge feels like you should have known (i.e. I got this dual for like 5 bucks from some dude outside).
Its *really* important to get these right when we share the information else we end up starting witchhunts. We don't like DQing people but we just have to enforce the rules as written to maintain fairness and consistency.
For those of us in the creative arts where AI can threaten to push us out of the corporate/licensing/paid work situation, accepting AI generated art represents our livelihood dying. And, it's dying to thieves, on a fundamental level. Our training, practice and sacrifices, chasing a dream of working for ourselves, doing what we love, and making a decent living as we do, are all being threatened.
I don't know how you guys in MtGGoldfish make your money, but imagine whatever work you've done over the years was suddenly dissolved, and others were using your means to take money in your place. And, then you're left only with going back to a cubical, a warehouse, or whatever.
That fear is what's driving outrage, at least mine.
If your worried about AI “art” taking your job I’d suggest watching @TheArtMentor on TH-cam. He has a lot of videos on AI “art” that helped me feel a lot less concerned about it taking over creative industries.
MY playgroup started with MtG on a whim by buying Core Set 2014 deck builder toolkits plus intro pack each. We were in high school at the time and on a budglet. We played intro pack level jank in our little meta bubble for a year or so and then we stopped. Then we picked up MtG again years after and our jank decks again and starting to slowly buy playsets and making them into actual (but still casual) decks. We never played any format, we just called it 60-card. Now we are into commander and all of us have a EDH deck that is couple of hundreds of Euros worth.
Still - we only play in our playgroup (no LGS in my town) buuut this is a story how we started as kids but stuck around. What kept us in was a combination of superb art, depth and lore. Not marketing and tournaments.
😂 I love this Barney reference... cause I am really old... 😢
where is my Lands set reprint where all cards are lands XD
The Horizon sets for Legacy and beyond are Battlebond and Conspiracy. I really enjoyed those products. Not much in the way of busted stuff, but with an amount of fun variety that let the timmy in me do janky things. Things like the battlebond duals were also nice for semi-budget EDH segues. I'm totally fine with cheating the reserved list into play ;)
Battlebond was a great set. Lots of fun.
Seth: What do you do if you suspect your opponent is playing fake cards in a tournament?
Richard You sweat them out!
Crim: I dont know, am I winning, or loosing? whats the matchup?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, omg I died with that interchange! Love you guys
33:15 Cardboard game players are addicted to the cardboard crack and just keep coming back. We definitely recycle ourselves.
I understand many will call it a fallacy, the AI in ads is a slippery slope. If it's okay here, eventually it will be okay there.
I’m one of the “fresh blood” (16)that richards been talking about (started war of the spark) and In my opinion the problem is multi step
1. There’s almost 0 advertisement, I only learned of mtg cause my friend who was bored of playing yugioh LOOKED for another game.
2. Structure decks other then commander decks actually look like brick and are way to rare to find
3. How wizard deals with dual lands, they’re always rare and do you know hard it it to convince someone to spend $40 on cards that just sit there? Not to mention that this locks players into 1-3 colors instead of interacting with all 5.
good to see some new blood. so you think you can start by playing mono coloured decks and needd all the dual lands?
my reason the tournament scene is down is because we don't get paper tournaments on Twitch every weekend with good coverage. killing the GPs where any scrub can get lucky and have other stuff going on if you scrub out. now it's so expensive just to get in there's no point donating to the winners as well.
I appreciate the content. Thank you!
The calculator lightswitch was a hilarious analogy
Pioneer will eventually find itself in the same cul-de-sac as pre-Horizons Modern found itself in, where in order for new cards to break into the format they will have to be either too good for Standard or necessarily format-warping. Balance mistakes will always continue to accumulate, unless you implement a very aggressive banlist.
I'm rather disappointed on the complete failure to understand why people were mad about AI art. I thought the issue was pretty well understood in the MTG space but if the three of you together couldn't directly articulate why people are upset about AI art "even for the background of a promo" then Seth should probably do a video on it because there's clearly a need.
AI art and AI in general is extremely controversial but not really because of the quality of art it can make (right now pretty garbo) or the value associated with that art it produces from a consumer side of things it's a LABOR ISSUE. I'm surprised Seth missed this because his tweet about Dave Rapoza leaving is how I found out about the incident in the first place (Rapoza talks a bit more about how he feels about AI art on his twitter page). Most artists view AI art as THEFT for pretty legitimate reasons. AI art uses massive databases of other people's real art that they scrape together to train the AI and usually don't compensate or even credit the artists. This is a pretty big deal for artists considering this "tool" is being used to cheapen or replace the work they do as their livelihood. It's particularly topical for MTG artists considering "AI Art Generator Allegedly Scraped Magic: The Gathering Cards For Material" is the title of a recent Kotaku article by Kenneth Shepard, discussing the current ongoing lawsuit against AI art company Midjourney.
If you missed the recent actors and writers strikes that dominated media this summer the need for safeguards against AI was a component of both strikes. This type of tech is being pushed by companies to try and lower the wages of workers and cut costs even if the tech isn't there quite yet. Job security might also be something people are thinking about a little more in regards to wizards considering the recent layoffs while producing record profits.
People aren't mad Wizards used bad art they're mad they used something that threatens the livelihood of artists and a lot of the community values artists and the art they create and people have caught them doing it twice now and they're initial response was doubling down. I'm willing to believe that this new tech could be starting to saturate the industry by people trying to cut corners and this is a mistake by Wizards getting caught off guard without the processes in place to stop it from happening but if it happens again IDK how they're going to get anyone to trust them.
Anything AI related needs to have push back because it is too easy for any company to cut a majority of their artists as soon as people are ok with AI art
I have that same onsie crim! Wore it for Halloween
Richard, you can buypass nfcs too. In fact, its even easier to do then replicate stamps or card quality. The only fix is for Wizards to allow proxies, as a store runner i've run into proxies that needed a legitimate microscope for me to tell the difference.
Edit: No, WOTC needs to be held accountable for their art as AI is the death of the game, bar none. And they've already had enough issues with plagiarism and tracing from the past few years with pushing more sets and still wanting to pay artist's less.
There will always be ways to counterfeit, as long as the cards have value, some people will try. If you have really expensive cards the easiest way to check them is the red dot test.
The state of competitive play is wild when you compare it to Yugioh they get 2000+ regularly and they don't even have cash prizes
As a professional graphic designer that has worked with Fortune 500 companies for almost 15 years, the AI art drama is pretty stupid. Seth nailed it by explaining it's an advertisement, not literal card art. Professional industry standard tools for photo retouching / comping now include generative AI features. It's literally built into the software and workflows of companies in a way that you don't just "undo" or "stop".
You can make the argument that it's a slippery slope, and you would have history on your side, that if Wizards uses any form of AI for marketing materials it's only a matter of time before they slash their artist roster to utilize AI art for actual cards being printed. I think Wizards should pay their current, real artists more money, but I don't think WOTC should be burned at the stake for marketing materials being Photoshopped poorly.
I’m firmly convinced that paper MTG’s barriers are purely logistical/financial. D&D is more popular than ever, including with younger people - the difference is the cost and learning curve of getting settled into MTG. The game itself is overflowing with great flavor, mechanics, design, etc., and moreover provides a fantastic answer to the “third spaces” problems young generations face. But, the environment needs to be right (and barriers low enough) for new/potential players to get hooked.
The end result of having counterfeit cards being a DQ, regardless of intent, and the prevalence of counterfeit cards, is that if you are at a serious tournament, your opponent plays a card, it's older than the holofoil stamp and in near mint condition, it will be objectively correct to call a judge for a deck-check.
I found the part discussing older and younger audiences especially interesting as i find myself to be the opposite of what you guys talked about. I'm a young (20) newcomer to the game this year and i actually got into the game because of in universe stuff, and for the most part don't like all these new universes beyond sets. I really hope they tone that down for 2025. I also regularly check large pioneer tournaments' top 8 finishes to improve my explorer deck on arena as i would love to try competing one day, although for now am limited financially. Anyways, I love listening to all your talks in this and the commander podcast, and I'm looking forward to more content this year!
I think chicago will be a massive success for the mtg scene there will be alot of people there more so then other magicons i believe as i personally know of at 100+ people going form my local lgs's it feels like everyone is going 23 from my lags got vip
I live in Cinci area & did not know SCG was happening until it was over
I’m 19and I started playing in 2015, just went into my local tech store and have been hooked ever since, but price is a big thing for
The discussion about card games with players coming from only other TCGs and being generally an older crowd seems really similar to some of the problems that fighting games have with getting people into the genre. Generally getting someone into a fighting game is a harder sell than getting someone into something like League or CS. This has changed a lot though recently and fighting games have gone through a huge revival by having much better online, and being far more accessible to new players by giving them options for easier inputs and control schemes so that the game doesn't have as big of a learning barrier. There's also been a lot more cheap or even free to play fighting games that have released. Convincing someone to pick up the latest Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Guilty Gear, or Tekken at full price + Season Pass(es) is a huge monetary investment for a genre that they may just bounce right off of. The increase in cheap/free to play options have been amazing for letting people try out the genre and onboarding new players before they make an investment into the more expensive mainstream titles.
There will also always be the problem that Magic, like Fighting Games, is a 1v1 game. It takes a certain kind of person to have fun in those kinds of games cause you need to have fun while losing and not be able to blame your losses on something else (Magic slightly less so cause of variance but still).
The only way to get new players into magic is by having it be more accessible from a price standpoint, and easier to understand from a gameplay standpoint. Standard is the best place for new players, but standard needs to be more accessible from a complexity standpoint and a price standpoint.
So, I think it should be clarified that basically the entire AI controversy over the weekend is about WotC saying they won't use anything with AI, then in response to people pointing out the use in the ad campaign, they immediately claimed that it wasn't AI instead of actually assessing and apologizing.
I think there are ultimately very few folks who would have faulted WotC for taking a less severe approach to the use of AI in things (something like, we do not plan to use AI in anything but as industry standards change, it may end up used by 3rd parties that we interact with), but they have been SO vocal that they will avoid it that it makes the situation a mess for them when this stuff happens.
Also, it definitely seems like y'all arent familiar enough with how AI stuff works, cause the idea of embedding something within the output of generators that can't be easily circumvented by anyone with even slight knowledge is just laughable. Not to mention that someone can rig their own generator that runs locally on their computer with little to no fuss, and obviously that could just avoid doing the embedding altogether. So, there is no logistical way to force people to be honest. Regardless of how someone thinks about AI generators, at the very least it should be easy to agree that lying about using them in a process or not is scummy behavior.
I played Magic since I was 14, when revised was out. Issues I see in the past 6 years. 1. Standard bannings. Standard died durring all of the energy bans. All the college students stopped playing competitively in my area during that time. 2. Modern horizons. All the boomers decks were rotated out, so they stopped playing. 3. No feature matches. I went to tournaments to lose to a pro on camera. I played in 6 scg events and 18 GPs. In a 5 year period. I ended up in the Feature matches a handful of times, and lost on camera to another spike. I never went to win, times I cashed it was a bonus. With the MH3 announcement I ended up selling my modern collection, as I'm now a boomer who no longer wants to spend to keep up.
Yes, WotC gave out that Ragavan, but that was at a special event, not just a local tournament. If we look at the average FNM promo, value wise, 2-5 bucks. If they would just finally give out stuff like shock lands, instead of pay-walling the most important cards, local tournaments would be jam packed, period.
And the best way to stop people from faking cards? Reprint expensive cards. No one would even to think about faking Ragavans, selling them to stores and laughing about the 300 bucks easily made, if Ragavan would be readily available. All the offshoot reprint sets of Magic should reprint everything, especially competitive cards, at a decent rarity, in a normal priced set.
Obviously not gonna happen, but hey. YGO reprints far more often, and is not going bankrupt. Who would've guessed that, most people buy products because of exiting new cards and reprints, no matter the actual value of the cards. (Not that chase Secrets Rares do not exist, but they are far and few between.) Plus the model of having low rarities of cards and having the fancy foiling being on the same card of a higher rarity helps.
I was not expecting Crim to come through with the based take on the AI art thing.
Haven’t watched the video but I assume “based” just means his opinion is the same as your own?
@@jonasl9068 nailed it
@@jonasl9068i mean, that is the real mean of based
@@jonasl9068you think that’s an own? When you think something is based of course it is the same opinion as your own 😂
I tried to teach my girlfriend Magic. Got us a couple of intro decks. The card complexity was too much for her, and it intimidated her. We haven't tried playing since. Not a single vanilla creature in either deck, and multiple cards had several lines of rules-intensive text. I will try to teach her again, but with homemade intro decks with simple effects (like it should be...)
"We see the TH-cam stats, we know you are old"
I am Old!!!
Man i came back to magic at a weird time. All these universes beyond cards, potential horizon sets, power creep galore, ai art stuff. Strange strange times.
What got you to come back?
Going through some old stuff and found some of my old decks and what not so i decided to maybe get back into it. I just started researching what's going on in the mtg world.
Using AI background art in a tweet isn't even worth discussing compared to the rest
@@windwaker01 i agree with that 100%. Seems like a nothing burger and i think wizards is being honest when they're like "hey, we didn't know about this right away".
This is funny to me because creatures have been consistently power creeped year after year since about 2006 when WotC actively refocused design towards facilitating mid-range creature strategies. Like honestly I think every year we've had a push in power creep, it's just that in 2006 creatures sucked so the creep had further to move than non-creature spells since WotC stared the game with way over powered instants, sorcery, and artifact spells.
Loved this whole podcast
25:37 this is the single biggest reason(weather players want to admit it or not) why the game is no longer accessible to newer(younger) players. I remember when I started playing the game was cost prohibitive(this was 2004!). I couldn’t imagine being a teenager in today’s game climate trying to compete against 1000$+ decks with whatever allowance my parents give me(lmao).
And also… on the age thing. Wizards needs to push harder on mgta. And that means making it truly competitive. And not a glorified gacha game.
I despise Richard's solution to fakes 🤣
Short story time: when I was young I thought people playing in the "grand prix" or whatever gave WotC the decklists they qualified with and they were given the decks to ensure no weird business was happening. Oh boy I was so wrong! I had no idea WotC was lazy af when it came to pro tournaments.
People play with their own cards, why would they be given decks?
A competitive deck is a few hundred dollars, cards are not given for free.
Even assuming that was a thing, how exactly do you handle the logistics of handing cards over to 2k players and getting them back?
Or do you want wizards to check the authenticity of tens of thousands of cards every event?
All the above is completely unrealistic, unlike Richard's take, which sounds much more doable.
Sure, not when it's still thousands of people, but it wouldn't be that big of a deal when you get to the top 8 (also as a kid when I thought it was like that I didn't think they'd get to take the decks with them). Anyway, chips on cards is as unrealistic as wotc giving out decks for free, but with more downside for the regular player.
Sadly, when the disaster that was _Magic 30_ happened, the bright-siders all raised their hands and coombaiyaahed "Proxys are okay now!"
This banhammering DQ swing is a resounding response of *NO THEY ARE NOT OKAY*
I have seen people just getting a game loss for fake cards. Then needing to promptly provide real cards to replace the fake ones. This provides someone who doesn’t know they acquired fake cards a chance to compete. Judges have done this in the past. Can you imagine showing up to a tournament, buying hundreds of dollars of cards from vendors, then losing because of a DQ to fake cards?
No need to imagine, that's what happened. I hardly see how the guy could have provided 4 genuine copies of Ragavan on the spot, unless someone was willing to lend him.
Sad but it doesn't take much effort to check your 75 cards before entering a tournament. The other players were fine so it's not a generalised issue.
If anything, I do think it's on WOTC to make more effort to guarantee card's authenticity.
Ok Barney
they forgot to mention gen z having too much social anxiety to show up to an lgs
At this moment you officially became the old man yelling at clouds
@@TheEvolver311 or am I the wise old man everyone looks to for advice?
@CrunchyEdiblesML nope. You're saying ridiculous nonsense like Gen-Z has to much social anxiety to show up at the lgs. If they want to they will, we have video game tournaments at my LGS also and its pretty much all Gen-Z kids showing up for those.
I kinda agree (i fall into this demographic and would rather just play fortnite or arena or something)
The DQ issue with fake cards at tournaments is really easy to solve; upon entry, every deck is inspected by a judge appointed by Wizards to verifty the authenticity of the cards. If it gets passed that check, then no one can call a DQ for that specific thing - not a judge, not a player. If it doesn't, then the player has 24 or 48 or whatever hours to try and replace those or they can't enter.
I might be missing something - I've never done anything like a sanctioned tournament, but I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't be a much better option. I guess that's potentially a lot of work, so maybe you only do it in the Top 8 or 16?
Too many players, too many cards.
Some fakes can only be reliably identified using a jeweler's loupe or weighing the cards.
Do you need every player to unsleeve, hand over and resleeves their $1k deck every tournament?
Besides, judges are rules expert, I don't believe spotting fakes is part of their qualifications.
That just doesn't sound realistic.
Plus what's the point? At the end of the day, playing with a fake doesn't provide a competitive advantage. Do your due diligence, make sure you don't come with fakes. And if you do, don't complain when you get caught and DQ.
@@guico33 Honest question - if the judgest aren't able to spot fakes, then who determines whether a card is a fake or not? Someone there should be an expert, no?
And look, players aren't necessarily experts at spotting fakes either, and spotting fakes - especially with newer Magic - takes a lot of experience and knowledge. Sure there are some well-known methods for older cards (the light test, green dot test, bend test, etc.), but those don't apply to many of the newer sets. With many new sets, the paper and print quality can vary quite a bit, even between SKUs in the same set. The ink can be different, the paper can be different, the paper CORE can be different, the weight of the font can be different - they even smell different. Combine that with improving conterfeits - it really takes a lot to truly spot.
I agree that having every player check their deck isn't realistic, but I also don't think it's realistic to expect them to adequately self inspect. And the whole point, to me anyway, is that it's really shitty to get DQed from an event for something that, as you accurately stated, gives no competitive advantage. I would think it would be better to try and come up with a way to sort through that before you get halfway through your top 8 game.
Perhaps they only check the top 8? Or maybe they simply provide an authentication expert on site and players can voluntarily submit their deck for a fake check beforehand. If it checks out, that deck/side board is good for the rest of the tournement. If not, they have an opportunity to try and replace the card in question before they spend all that time and effort in a tournement. And any player who hasn't gone through that check would be subject to a mid-game check and potential DQ.
Even then, you're not wrong that it presents logistics problems. What Wizards really needs to do is reign in their card quality and make it consistent, and probably look into some sort of micro authentication methods. Micro authentication is a really fascinating field and there are all sorts of really ingenious, simple ways to essentially "brand" something in a way that is subtle and unique. Maybe they have unique identifiers for each set, or even each print run. My understanding is that some such method was used on the 1/1 One Ring - the grading company called Wizards and somehow verified that it was real.
They'd still have to internally keep track of those and have someone on site who could check, though. And I guess that doesn't really help STORES know what's legit, unless Wizards has a way that stores can verify authenticity with them. But at least having someone on site to check can help players from something as shitty as a DQ in the top 8. Of course, all of this costs money which means it probably won't happen with current leadership.
I honestly think it's in their best interest to come up with SOME solution. Wizards wants these tournements to promote and sell the game, but if their own issues with quality make it difficult for stores and players to spot fakes, and that winds up getting people tossed out of tournements, I don't think that looks good for the brand.
But hey, maybe they really don't feel like the tournements do much to sell product, so maybe they won't ever really give enough of a shit to do anything.
The game is simply too expensive and the there is no attachment for youger people
They need a show or movie or some way to introduce youger crowd to the universe of mtg not necessarily the game itself but the the lore and the characters and they will naturally find the game and start to play
Well unfortunately the lore of Magic kinda sucks and has never really been a attraction for why people start to play. Sure some people get into it after they get into the game but not beforehand.
@TheEvolver311 while this is true this is the key difference between this and every other major card game
@@Epicgaming1990 most other card games are attached to some pre-existing IP that attracts attention to the game. WotC is trying to gain that element with Universes Beyond sets because at 30 years in the MtG IP is not going to suddenly grab everyone's eyes, at least not for a positive reason maybe if they do some terribly regressive stuff that generates public outcry against it.
mtg just cant compete.
Not sure if you guys read the comments on the cast but I'll shoot anyway.
As a young person, not the fortnite crowd but only just out of college a few years. Im a super competitive person, love to compete. But its just way too expensive. In Europe where I live, there are about 6 big events a year, none of them are in my country. 120$ entry fee, a flight, a hotel, and a deck. Im in a place in my life where Im struggling to pay my almost 3000$ rent (thats not a flex btw, its a 2bed apartment). And Im fortunate enough to work in Pharmaceuticals, I simply cant justify spending a thousand plus euros for an afternoon of magic.
Gah crim says “like” more than any Starbucks white girl even.. “like, I think the like competitive market like just doesn’t have like the marketing that like casual has”
High quality bootleg mtg are incredibly easy and cheap to get and they spot on real even down to the holo
"We got the full crew here."
No Tomer and never any Phil.
What about instead of Pioneer Horizons, we got Pioneer Masters with a bunch of reprints and intriguing cards that have been powercrept out of modern to the format - Bob, JTMS, Goyf, etc?
Masters sets don't inject new cards into formats they only reprint reviously legal cards
@@TheEvolver311whoosh
@@burnsboy101 not whoosh at all, go look what either Maro or Aaron Forsythe said about why they couldn't do this with Modern and you'll know why it won't happen.
@@TheEvolver311 you missed the whole point of the original comment just to sound smart
Yo, Richard that MvC2 1up is sick! Was that a Christmas pick up?
Microchipped cards will go crazy
Technically I played magic for about a year as a kid. Had a single mono blue kamigawa precon. Started actually playing when the Zendikar Rising/Commander Legends was new. I love this game, but it's annoyingly expensive that every deck (Commander) that I make is at minimum $200, but after I've played it for a while and upgraded it, it sits closer to $500+. I do own a few precons I play from time to time, so I can see kids being able to pick up a precon for $40 and have a good time, but the fun of customizing the deck is pretty out of reach (Unless you're Tomer lol). Also I'm 28 btw so yea in the average demographic lmao.
i would LOVE to have a 1$ pauper horizon pack!
I’d actually play pauper if they did that
53:34 I’m not saying AI art is a non-issue. But the biggest problem is artists not getting credit or losing jobs. Since all the cards have an artists name attached to them it’ll be really easy to tell if wizards faked it. If they make a AI Seb McKenna card and he’s like “I didn’t make that” then you’ll know it’s fake. An artist may try to pass off AI art which is its own issue but in my mind the biggest thing is not getting art from artists
Oof, I am 55 and watching your podcast.
Richard saying fortnight and tiktok made me flintch.
Yes i am almost 30.
Edit: make sure your kid starts before 6 or 7 and if they start to like it at that point you might have got a player for life.
Magic isn't a game designed for 6-7 year Olds lol.
@@TheEvolver311 didnt stop me or my brother from enjoying it at that age :p
Edit: not like we knew what we were doing realy
The best way to resolve a disqualification situation would be to give the player the option to buy new cards on the spot, or give him a counter fit for the duration of the tournament. Secure the cards and then check them for 100% accuracy. If they are fake, destroy them and initiate an investigation.
No he should have been disqualified it was the Top 8
@@TheEvolver311 Exactly because that was top 8, it was bit too late. Previously, yes, absolutely. At the highest level of the game, only skills should count.
@@MrJakubxXx the rule states its a DQ if he wants to play with proxies cool do that at the kitchen table. These things were verified fake rather quickly by the judges so....I'd maybe believe he didn't intend to proxy them if his entire playset wasn't proxies, that would mean a vendor at the location was just selling proxies 100% which I doubt that seriously.
PDH precons coming soon!😂
Im waiting for the Goldfish Bowl Classic tournament
Or
Tolarian College Community Tournament
09:45 pauper decks for 10 bucks would be a good way to get people into pauper and fire events. new art would make old player consider buying them as well (or stores opening the decks)
around 28:25 yugioh has the same problem of getting new players (in the west at least).
imo that is because of the way the companies run their games.
still this is a new world and both mtg and ygo are relics of the past. the gathering of mtg are the online communities of today. kids dont need to go anywhere to have fun and be with their friends.
add to that the fact that kids these days have acess to countless free to play games, including card games. card games are expensive and should not be. otherwise they cannot compete.
mtg is the "only" card game that was sucessfull with a companion media product. it is the best game but pkm and ygo had had and have their anime and manga to grab their audiance. it is the same for almost every new game like vanguard, digimon legends of runeterra and one piece. mtg dropped the ball on their long term plan by not investing in a quality anime, not to mention the novels.
I mean what were trading card games or even the more prehistoric CRPG’s back in the day but simply what people made do with based on the technology available to them at the time in the attempt to make DnD more real to people than just rule books and whatever the game masters says.
(former modern player) The reason less people play tournaments/magic in general is the same reason I stop playing magic. It's not fun to lose anymore. I've lost 4 times more than I've ever won and I'd had tons of fun until around mh1 came out. I used to have a chance to win with my jank pile, I am not even sure that a 1000 dollar deck would be fun to lose with based on how some match ups play out. If the majority of players lose and it's not fun to lose then it's not a game that people will return too. It's the same way with a video game. If it's not fun to game over in a game then I will stop playing. But if I think man if I just dodged one more hit I would of won I'll keep playing and trying to get better. Magic doesn't.
Magic "interactions" are the same as they used too. To be honest it's more fun to watch a lurrus grindy deck than to watch someone take all the cards from someone's hand on turn one. So I bet playing that is even worse
Respectfully that’s only one specific format. Doesn’t explain how every format essentially loses player base except commander or cube if you count that
Thats why I specified my format but I think it has to do with standard too. There is something in the way they design cards that makes losing not fun. Commander players ban cards within friend groups and cube players hand pick the cards in there cube so Id say it still does apply in a way. The only formats that are 'growing' are formats where there is a custom ban list.@@jamesgreenwood1703
I want Pioneer Masters, but not Pioneer Horizons.
It’s so complex with all these infinite synergies and went from slow and playing your whole deck in a grind for victory. Now it’s ungodly expensive for a good deck and you have a good chance to lose turn 3. I’m likely done with magic this year if it doesn’t stop getting more expensive and has become less fun the more broken cards become. It’s no longer the game I fell in love with.
To comment on the age of the player base, i'll likely stop playing magic within the next 2-3 years if WOTC's trajectory remains consistent. The cost to enter, release schedule, and time investment required to remain in the loop becomes less sustainable now that I've reached my 30s
im completely new to card games! but I'm also mid 30s...
The 2024 magic roast
I don’t have any problems with people using proxies. Fake cards should be marked in some way so that they’re not sold at value, but why would I care in play? Magic is pay to win anyway, I’d rather keep that barrier as low as possible.
Commander Championz.
here is a few ideas
• Reprint Legendary creature/planswalker that have been printed 1-2 times or only in foil.
• New Commander untapped lands or commander specific lands.
• A new cycle of Will cards (Jeska’s Will, for example).
• More colorless specific ramp (i mean, play additional Wastes)
• Uncommon multicolored Partner commanders.
• A Trophy for Richard and the Goldfish crew.
Leave a comment below if you also have any ideas 💡.