I don't play MtG any more, and have never played Hearthstone or or Yu-Gi-Oh!. But I'll tune in for any combination of two or more from CGB, Rarran, and Cimoooo.
As he hears the words "minions secret lair" for the first time, half a decade of Magic community complaints click into place in Rarran's head. Finally, it all makes sense.
Spongeboob will be bought out instantly ... I would just like getting inn universe cards stil... I mean did they say anything about the reserved list 2.0 by now?
10:46 Something important to point out for Archmage of Runes is that the mana reduction only discounts generic mana costs of your instants and sorceries. You still have to pay your colored mana requirements and can't chain free spells like you can with auctioneer.
Yeah, I was thinking exactly that. If it could discount the coloured mana, then I'd expect there to be a way to do something cool with it. But because it can't, and thus can't reduce things to zero, there's just no way I can see it working for the nuts turn. And the "value" turn with it just doesn't look very good.
@dectilon Spells with colorless requirements specifically (i.e. warping wail 1◇) need a colorless source that can't be reduced by the generic reduction effect.
Yes, he was very clearly imagining playing it on T5, then casting Opt, Boltwave, Boltwave, Opt, etc. etc. into winning the game or nearly winning it. That said, who knows if within 5 years we'll see a 4-mana creature with the text "Noncreature spells you cast cost X to cast, where X is that spell's mana value."
I think when Rarran evaluates creatures, he still kinda thinks of them like your opponent can attack them with their own creatures. If any 2 power dude could run straight into Kiora’s face to remove her before she attacks like in Hearthstone, she’d be a lot less intimidating and the 2 toughness would be more likely to get her killed before she can swing. Similarly with the archmage, I think he’s imagining that reducing the cost of instants and sorceries by 1 can get you free spells, when in practice it doesn’t in Standard at all and is unlikely to even with five years of releases.
i dont get how he still like compares cards to hearthstone, he's played a good bit of magic by now, he should know better, one of the biggest differences is how simple it is to remove creatures in hearthstone, just swing ur little guy into it lol.
Same with the idea of Peasant. He's surprised it would be banned in MTG (it would be an incredibly broken card in MTG). It's Dark Confidant with no downside for half cost. But he's thinking removing small creatures is easier than it is because of hearthstone.
As someone who’s played hearthstone before, a huge difference between mana reduction type effects in hearthstone and magic is that you usually can’t reduce things to 0 in magic, because of the mana pips.
The funny thing about Demonic Pact/Offering is that the general concept of that combo is one of the most iconic decks in the history of magic called "Trix", which relied on a combination of Illusions of Grandeur (a four mana enchantment where you gain 20 life when it comes into play, and when it leaves play, you lose 20 life, with a cumulative upkeep cost of 2) and Donate (which just is a blue version of the offering for the same cost). But Rarran's analysis is spot on. The difference with Trix was that the 20 life from Illusions basically puts you completely out of reach of damage on the turn you play it, and you can Donate it immediately on the following turn (rather than it needing to survive for 4 turns) to put your opponent in a position where they need to immediately pay 4 mana on upkeep (because it ticked up once on your turn 5 already) with that increasing by 2 each turn, while trying to actually kill the opponent with basically no mana and +20 life. One of the all-time GOATs of Magic.
Demonic Pact has one other thing going for it though. While it should raise every alarm bell possible and several impossible ones to boot...it kinda doesn't. It's an anti-target. Opponents hate targeting this card because they think it helps you and end up losing to a double discard + removal even if you don't have Mesa Falcon with upside or Donate Kitty in play. But standard is entirely too fast to do that with any measure of consistency.
Okay, as someone that plays a lot of really niche strategies I have to clarify, with an effect like Herald of Eternal Dawn on the field, your life actually goes into the negatives, Phyrexian Unlife replaces the damage that would be dealt when you are at 0 with poison counters which might be where the confusion stems from.
@@omerpockard7212 yeah, I tried to phrase it as best as I could with "damage that would be dealt when at 0" but I shoulda specified "at 0 or less". After all, wording is everything in this game.
That little maxxc snippet was probably the most beautiful thing I've seen all week. It has everything, two survivors talking abd relating about their torturer(cimo), the clear trauma that card caused Rarran, the sheer difference in knowledge of the game, the "you sweet summer child" tone. Perfect, just perfect.
I think Rarran misunderstood Archmage of Runes. Just because a spell costs 1 less to cast, does not mean you can cast one mana spells for free. Archmage only reduces the generic mana cost but basically all spells have at least one colored mana. So even with 10 Archmages, you probably will not go infinite.
This is what my friends learnt when making spell slinging decks. Reduceing costs by 1 or 2 sounds great, but when every spell in the deck is a cheap red or blue instant you're not really saving a whole lot since u gotta still pay the colored pips
It can if you have spells that themselves add mana like Manamorphose or Desperate Ritual. Not that Rarran would know that, but that's probably why CGB didn't correct him.
As further clarity if your life total is negative it's treated as 0 for card effects besides life changes. It's a recentish change but as an example Death's shadow used to get bigger at negative lifetotals but now maxes out at 13
So if your opponent is doing the Bloodthirsty Conqueror infinite life gain/drain combo while you have this on the board, does it just go forever until someone quits the game?
When Rarran asked at 19:21 if a 1 mana Bob that doesn't hurt you when it draws you a card would see play in standard and CGB had to think a bit before saying "yes", I lost it a bit :D Crazy how the game has evolved over the years
Yeah I mean the concept is just a bit more absurd in magic because you can just never let it be in combat. Hearthstone that card is balanced around the fact that you can't really stop it from dying.
the game has gone a long way but cgb being at all hesitant to say that card wouldn't be completely insane is just him not thinking about it correctly. caustic bronco is an amazing card right now and this hypothetical card would be double as good if we're talking dumb math, and it would probably be more than triple as good in practice and like he eventually said, easily bannable. in hs you just bop it with your creature, in magic it would basically be better ragavan.... so i don't think his hesitation says anything about how the game has changed lmao
I think Rarran didn't explain it well enough so CGB might have misunderstood it. CGB probably didn't realize it was an aura effect that would trigger every turn as long as Peasant stayed on board.
I feel like the big thing that wasn't explained is that draw two discard some cards is playable on its own in occulus. Your graveyard is a second hand and it helps you dump your threats, so it's functionally card advantage, and if it happens to make the octopus you win, so it's also a premium removal magnet.
Yeah I think he missed that you actually only need 5 cards in graveyard since Kiora discards 2 automatically. Ultimately I agree with their analysis that it just makes an already good deck slightly better. It's not like the deck that runs Oculus and Haughty Djinn desperately needs another 3 drop creature...
The other big differences between hearthstone and magic when it comes to discard is that VERY few cards discard specific cards from your hand and that res effects in hearthstone don't affect discard cards. The unpredictability in hearthstone makes discard so much worse that Draw 2 Discard 2 look not nearly as good as it is in magic.
The fact that you can choose what to block with and not to block makes so many mtg creatures so much better than most other card games. Like the fact that you can just choose not to block with Scooze till it's big instead of having it get smacked to death instantly matters so much.
Yeah, the real game changer is that creatures don't threaten other creatures, not by themselves at least. In games like Hearthstone or Yu-Gi-Oh, your minions/monsters _are_ removal, and that means that every deck is full of removal and you can't rely on them staying on the board.
I’d love to see rarran as a full-time mtg creator. Ik it might not be feasible since he prob has a lot of hearthstone followers, but love his personality and great to see him engaging with this game.
fun fact progenitus still sees play in legacy sideboards mostly elves that can natural order into it as early as turn 2, and occasionally show and tell runs it because it can't be hit by the usual counters to show and tell.
"Kiora is bad, it doesn't affect the board when you play it" "Ohh I like Abyssal Harvester, a 3 mana do nothing with worse stats that doesn't even have an ETB effect"
Kiora may make the Scion of the Deep token every time she attacks as long as you meet or exceed 7 in your graveyard, but you can only ever have one Scion of the Deep token in play at one time as it is Legendary
For effects that prevent you from losing. You go into negative. So if you get dropped to -4, you need to heal 5 to return to 1 and survive if Herald or the source of the effect is removed.
48:30 A lil bit of correction, even if Harmless Offering is an instant or can be played at instant speed (due to some effects e.g. Vedalken Orrery) once you've chosen a mode you will be tagged as the mode 'owner'. You cant choose to 'lose the game' and offered the pact expecting your opponent to lose. Saying it doesn't work because its a sorcery doesnt mean a thing and will only confuse people.
I've seen content creators playing Kiora y various different decks, and it just works, if nothing else as an early threat and removal magnet while the deck works towards it's other win conditions.
I am a huge Abyssal Harvester defender i think its severely underrated I've been playing it in mono black demons and I've won games straight up with just abyssal harvester and kill spells. I've beat Atraxa by killing it and then reanimating it. I've beat slasher by exiling it as it dies and then playing my own bloodletter. I think at its worst this card is an insane sideboard and I'd much rather have it over other graveyard hate.
I've been playing around with a creature based reanimator/cheating Rakdos pile and he's been holding his own alongside Archpriest of Shadows, Coffin Queen and Ancient Brass Dragon. Plus, his token stays if you lose him.
@ I’ve started to see it as just a 3 mana card that demands respect or else it could easily steal a game kinda like unstoppable slasher or even something like deep cavern bat
Progenitus is such a cool Timmy payoff, and I do kind of miss the old kitchen-table environments that you could get by with trying to pull it off. But it's really hard to try and regulate some type of intentionally powered down format, for similar reasons to the "my deck is a 7" problem, because some might take it to mean "Just the cards I have lying around, and maybe a small budget for additions" and someone else might take it as a challenge to make a ridiculous combo work, and those probably aren't going to be on the same power level.
I really want CGB rarran and cimoooo to start a podcast together. Their chemistry is just fantastic and they all have different prospectives coming from different card games and entertainments. I would LOVE that. They could talk about the newest stuff happening in whatever of their specialty game. Make Comparisons with the other games. Maybe even talk card game history. It sounds super cool and interesting
That Peasant card from Hearthstone would be insane in Magic. Imagine if Phyrexian Arena was 1 generic mana, didn’t hurt you, and had aggressive stats. Sure it’s easier to remove, but I still think that card sounds cracked. Obviously the fact that you can attack creatures in Hearthstone probably makes the card much more reasonable there
unkilliax does have rush and taunt however, which is very relevant. it also has (hs equivalent) lifelink, deathtouch *and* comes back once when it dies *and* can't be targeted by instants and sorceries *and* negates the first hit it takes each time it comes back. the specific keywords on unkilliax are just about the best possible combination to make a really obnoxious defensive control minion.
In HS Gadgetzan Auctioneer is so crazy because you can generate coins and there is no colored mana. In MTG you won't be casting 0 mana spells with Archmage of Runes, but rather 1 blue mana spells. Also because of instant speed interaction/removal, you can't really bank on playing sorceries so you have to play instants only pretty much. Archmage of Runes won't see any play in standard, modern, etc but it will probably be a pretty good card in Commander.
For the second card, I think Rarran was more caught up on the first line of text. It’s good with things like Goblin Electromancer & Djinn. Just 5 mana is rough
Yeeeeeees, I love this long content of rating cards. I def want some more tourney stuff. I feel like we barely touched that too. More more more!! *hits the like button*
In all card games that I could remember Spider-Man was an "small-stats-burst-effect"-guy, so yeah, I am sure he would be agro-man And I think Rarran slighly overestimated Giant-wizard because he forgot that this 1 mana discount couldn't discount colored mana (by default, atleast). So while you could put broken stuff with Apprentice/Radiance Elemental in HS, most of the time it would need to get to 0 mana through discounts that could be achived because if you have 1 mana spell you would, well, get 0 mana spell. But with Giant if you have B Opt, it wouldn't become 0 Opt. So if Giant could bring cost to 0 (or just cut color-cost in general) it would be a different story, because NOW you could dig through your deck or you would want to double them to sling big stuff for free and gain cards so you could sling more stuff.
Im glad these collabs have brought you into full podcast mode. Comment for algorithm purposes. Edit: going to try to cook something up with Archmage of Runes, ramp hard get it out t3 / t4, ramp more into doppelgang or some such
Progenitus has actually a pretty niche usecase against a mill deck: If your opponent mills Progenitus, you can just put him back into the deck. If Mill ever becomes a thing again, put 1 Progenitus into the sidedeck and keep your handsize at the max limit. If your opponent mills Progenitus, back to the deck; if you draw Progenitus as your last card, send it for handsize at the end of the turn and back into the deck
Love that you're doing podcasts again even if they are TH-cam only right now that I can't really listen to on my commute. Is there any chance you'll be doing an actual audio only version of the podcast that we can subscribe to in our app of choice in the future?
Progenitus was played in elves in legacy but its been a few years since that was the case. It was played because you could cheat it into play with natural order, which is a 4 mana green spell that says sacrifice a creature, search your library for a green creature to put onto the battlefield. Its been very powercrept though
I've really been enjoying the cross-pollination between both of you and Cimo. I'd love to see a Pokémon player added to the mix and have some kind of 4-way collab, either rating or straight up playing all 4 of these card games with each other.
Yall mentioned how having "preparation" in hearthstone allowed a simular card to the archmage to be viable... We do have Plot in standard right now. There is potential to plot a card like the discard 1 draw 2 card, then play this and cast for free to get immediate card advantage. Still probably too slow. But a neat build around idea.
I love that the “gotcha” aspect has been massively deemphasised in this video. It’s just a chat about some new and old magic cards, I love it. I would even go as far to say the “correct” and “wrong” dings are unnecessary at this point. Especially because “correct” actually just means “agrees with CGB”. Even he admits he could be wrong about some of this! I think it cheapens the video and slightly ruins the laid-back chat vibe. Still loved the vid, it was my favourite one between the two of you in a while.
CGB I hope you know you could make this type of video with Cimooooooo and Rarren on just about any set or collection of cards and I would watch without hesitation. Love this content and I really love watching these guys slowly become better at evaluating a different game than their own.
44:20 what the hell protection from everything even means? Serious question. I'm new into magic (friend convinced me to try comander) and very confused right now xD
The thing about Demonic Pact is that it's other three effects are pretty sick. Removal and card advantage is awesome. Add in the fact that Bargain still exists in standard, and I think you have quite the deck going.
thing about archmage of runes is if you're ahead by turn 5, you really need something to turn the corner, and if you're behind, you can't afford to tap out to look towards the future, and its effects are not strong enough to do either by itself
45:20 Progenitus got Blazing Shoal banned in Modern. Glistener Elf was the real culprit--yet another instance of WotC properly identifying the problem, then banning the wrong card, like a Bond villain chastizing their underling, then killing another random underliing to teach the chastized one "not to fail me".
@@Frommerman: That's as maybe, but -it's still a frog- it doesn't really address the systemic issue: that infect itself was the problem, and Glistener Elf was the most powerful avatar ("But isn't it a Phyrexian Elf Warrior, and not an Avatar?" "Quiet, you!") of that keyword's inherent problems, most of which were fixed by the later innovation, toxic. By being 1 mana, it could get in under all but one counterspell on-curve (and that one was banned from the format, so...), and the combo reduced infect to R&D's greatest fear for the ability, namely that it'd become "just another life total", to quote MaRo. My main gripe with the situation can be boiled down to Dark Ritual/Hypnotic Specter: they correctly identified that turn 1 Hyppie was back-breakingly demoralizing, but instead of banning the _real_ problem card, the one that allows turn 1 Hyppie to be a thing (along with all the other problems that fast mana cause), they banned the Specter.
@@sdfkjgh Yeah, losing to Infect feels unfair. But I play Amulet Titan, unfair is where I start before leaping into "indistinguishable from a child blatantly cheating against their friends" territory.
Inkmoth Nexus was way more of a problem with Shoal than Glistener Elf ever was. Unless you ban the entire mechanic, Shoal was absolutely the problem. Infect has been playable but never a problem without Shoal. And certainly banning all 9+ MV red cards isn't an option so I don't know what this has to do on the topic of Progenitus.
"I cast Herald of Eternal Dawn. You're milling means nothing to me blue player!" "Damn. Guess I should have held up counterspell... So anyways, Unsummon?"
So here's the thing about scavenging ooze: you leave up one mana, and if they *don't* have removal, you can wait for them to try and reanimate something and then exile *that* in response.
As someone who plays UW Tempo, you get the Octopus a lot, but you really don't care if they kill Kiora. It's all about the draw and discard to get those Oculus in the hand out or fix lands. Edit: I've considered putting Abyssal Harvester in the deck with no ways to actually cast it.
The easy thing to overlook with Archmage is that almost all instants and sorceries have at least 1 colored mana in their costs. As any Feather, the Redeemed player will tell you, there's only so far you can get in "spell" heavy decks with generic mana(/cost reduction). Also, the reasonable cost for creature removal in MtG is simply half that of Hearthstone.
Just a thought about demonic pact: It's not just the combo that is good, you can also get value from the card before gifting it. And maybe you could deck in cards that allows you to sacrifice the pact for an additional benefit before it can kill you. Just a thought.
The best part of these videos is seeing how different mechanics affect the different playstyles in different games. Like for Kiora, that effect would be game breaking in YuGiOh, but Magic has costs and is more tempo focused so it's just good but hasn't been proven great yet, but Hearthstone doesn't have a discard pile and already has strong draw power so it would be unplayable there.
Rarran: Understands why Zombify + Koma is good. Also Rarran: Still doesn't understand why Kiora is good when she curves directly into Zombify after looting two cards.
The mask is starting to slip, CGB is revealing that he just likes talking to his friends about cards and doesn't need a plan to make it entertaining
Tbf thats exactly why i like these videos lol
That's always been my favorite part😂
Don't we all :)
I don't play MtG any more, and have never played Hearthstone or or Yu-Gi-Oh!. But I'll tune in for any combination of two or more from CGB, Rarran, and Cimoooo.
He has concepts of a plan
As he hears the words "minions secret lair" for the first time, half a decade of Magic community complaints click into place in Rarran's head. Finally, it all makes sense.
I have not bought paper magic since invasion but i will seriously consider buying a minions secret lair
@@davidb4935the SpongeBob better be the closest we ever get to it.
@@obadijahparks no way i hope it opens the floodgates to the dumbest secret lairs the likes of which are incomprehensible
@@davidb4935as the meme goes "there is a point where we needed to stop and we have clearly passed it. But let keep going and see how far we can go."
Spongeboob will be bought out instantly ... I would just like getting inn universe cards stil... I mean did they say anything about the reserved list 2.0 by now?
"The whole thing is its tail pretty much." Rarran discovers what snakes are.
Snakes are just worms that put points in intimidation.
Koma's not a meatball, he's the spaghetti. He comes WITH meatballs. And he's a big long noodle
Koma makes your opponent into a meatball.
10:46 Something important to point out for Archmage of Runes is that the mana reduction only discounts generic mana costs of your instants and sorceries. You still have to pay your colored mana requirements and can't chain free spells like you can with auctioneer.
Have there ever been colorless instants? I know Eternal has a few.
Yup it is a horribly inefficient card, the secondary effect of the card draw is nice, but an extremely worse Thunderclap Drake, no thank you.
@@dectilon there are a few, either eldrazi related or lessons
Yeah, I was thinking exactly that. If it could discount the coloured mana, then I'd expect there to be a way to do something cool with it.
But because it can't, and thus can't reduce things to zero, there's just no way I can see it working for the nuts turn. And the "value" turn with it just doesn't look very good.
@dectilon Spells with colorless requirements specifically (i.e. warping wail 1◇) need a colorless source that can't be reduced by the generic reduction effect.
I am the type of viewer that neeeeeeeeeeds this kinda long form content for work. Your doing me a service.😊
Sameeeeeeee thank you for sharing in my need
For me it’s fantastic for sleep. This sort of stuff on loop and I may actually get some… after listening intently of course.
100%. My job is quite monotonous and I’m alone in the field all day. I could listen to people talk Magic all day and CBG x Rarran is perfect
Minor spelling mistake 💀
Same here!
Rarran's hang up with Archmage of Runes is probably thinking that generic reduction would make something like Opt free
Yes, he was very clearly imagining playing it on T5, then casting Opt, Boltwave, Boltwave, Opt, etc. etc. into winning the game or nearly winning it. That said, who knows if within 5 years we'll see a 4-mana creature with the text "Noncreature spells you cast cost X to cast, where X is that spell's mana value."
Yeah I kept saying that to my screen. He's not thinking about how it's extremely difficult to remove the pip cost of spells.
100% yeah he's getting hearthstone brain here where cost is cost
I thought so too. Thank you for explaining that it doesn’t automatically make things free.
The other issue is that probably half your deck is lands, meaning it's much much easier to run out of spells unlike hearthstone.
I think when Rarran evaluates creatures, he still kinda thinks of them like your opponent can attack them with their own creatures. If any 2 power dude could run straight into Kiora’s face to remove her before she attacks like in Hearthstone, she’d be a lot less intimidating and the 2 toughness would be more likely to get her killed before she can swing.
Similarly with the archmage, I think he’s imagining that reducing the cost of instants and sorceries by 1 can get you free spells, when in practice it doesn’t in Standard at all and is unlikely to even with five years of releases.
i dont get how he still like compares cards to hearthstone, he's played a good bit of magic by now, he should know better, one of the biggest differences is how simple it is to remove creatures in hearthstone, just swing ur little guy into it lol.
Same with the idea of Peasant. He's surprised it would be banned in MTG (it would be an incredibly broken card in MTG). It's Dark Confidant with no downside for half cost. But he's thinking removing small creatures is easier than it is because of hearthstone.
As someone who’s played hearthstone before, a huge difference between mana reduction type effects in hearthstone and magic is that you usually can’t reduce things to 0 in magic, because of the mana pips.
I mean you can, that s why affinity for artifact is busted
I swear, one day I will make a good Zombie deck with Rooftop Storm. It has to be possible! xD
The funny thing about Demonic Pact/Offering is that the general concept of that combo is one of the most iconic decks in the history of magic called "Trix", which relied on a combination of Illusions of Grandeur (a four mana enchantment where you gain 20 life when it comes into play, and when it leaves play, you lose 20 life, with a cumulative upkeep cost of 2) and Donate (which just is a blue version of the offering for the same cost). But Rarran's analysis is spot on. The difference with Trix was that the 20 life from Illusions basically puts you completely out of reach of damage on the turn you play it, and you can Donate it immediately on the following turn (rather than it needing to survive for 4 turns) to put your opponent in a position where they need to immediately pay 4 mana on upkeep (because it ticked up once on your turn 5 already) with that increasing by 2 each turn, while trying to actually kill the opponent with basically no mana and +20 life. One of the all-time GOATs of Magic.
Demonic Pact has one other thing going for it though. While it should raise every alarm bell possible and several impossible ones to boot...it kinda doesn't. It's an anti-target. Opponents hate targeting this card because they think it helps you and end up losing to a double discard + removal even if you don't have Mesa Falcon with upside or Donate Kitty in play. But standard is entirely too fast to do that with any measure of consistency.
Okay, as someone that plays a lot of really niche strategies I have to clarify, with an effect like Herald of Eternal Dawn on the field, your life actually goes into the negatives, Phyrexian Unlife replaces the damage that would be dealt when you are at 0 with poison counters which might be where the confusion stems from.
Yeah, though even with that you need to be at or below 0 before it swaps to dealing poison.
You also go to negatives with Phyrexian Unlife if the original hit is large enough.
@@omerpockard7212 yeah, I tried to phrase it as best as I could with "damage that would be dealt when at 0" but I shoulda specified "at 0 or less". After all, wording is everything in this game.
That little maxxc snippet was probably the most beautiful thing I've seen all week. It has everything, two survivors talking abd relating about their torturer(cimo), the clear trauma that card caused Rarran, the sheer difference in knowledge of the game, the "you sweet summer child" tone. Perfect, just perfect.
I think Rarran misunderstood Archmage of Runes. Just because a spell costs 1 less to cast, does not mean you can cast one mana spells for free. Archmage only reduces the generic mana cost but basically all spells have at least one colored mana. So even with 10 Archmages, you probably will not go infinite.
This is what my friends learnt when making spell slinging decks. Reduceing costs by 1 or 2 sounds great, but when every spell in the deck is a cheap red or blue instant you're not really saving a whole lot since u gotta still pay the colored pips
yep
Thats a big difference between Magic and Hearthstone, he clearly doesnt know the difference
It has an implicit “reddit clause”
@@TheArtikae wdym by that
It can if you have spells that themselves add mana like Manamorphose or Desperate Ritual. Not that Rarran would know that, but that's probably why CGB didn't correct him.
Rarran sounds like such a storm player at heart, get this man some grapeshots
We need a crossover with a Magic player, Hearthstone player, Yugioh player and Pokemon player battle it out in a tournament consisting of all 4 games
Each one wins their respective game, resulting in a dead tie
@@melephs_capto be fair, rarran has some chances in mtg if he locks in
@@melephs_cap bold of you to assume rarran would win anything
@@melephs_capit doesn’t have to be winner takes all, they could have coming in second or third worth something
@@melephs_cap you could let each one play anything but their own game, and than see who wins the most ones
57:44 Your life total doesn't stop at zero, you can go negative, you just don't lose as long as the angel is on your board.
Bingo.
As further clarity if your life total is negative it's treated as 0 for card effects besides life changes. It's a recentish change but as an example Death's shadow used to get bigger at negative lifetotals but now maxes out at 13
As Hans at the Honolulu Pro Tour demonstrated. RIP Hans, forever in our hearts.
So if your opponent is doing the Bloodthirsty Conqueror infinite life gain/drain combo while you have this on the board, does it just go forever until someone quits the game?
@@FlowSwitchMusic It stops at 0 or if already negative on life it only goes off once. At least that's how Arena handles it.
CGB: So a one mana 2/1 for one ?
Rarran, not phased: One mana 2/1 for one.
Savannah Lions, Jackal pup.
@@wickederebus I think we're looking at the redundancy.
When Rarran asked at 19:21 if a 1 mana Bob that doesn't hurt you when it draws you a card would see play in standard and CGB had to think a bit before saying "yes", I lost it a bit :D
Crazy how the game has evolved over the years
Yeah I mean the concept is just a bit more absurd in magic because you can just never let it be in combat. Hearthstone that card is balanced around the fact that you can't really stop it from dying.
the game has gone a long way but cgb being at all hesitant to say that card wouldn't be completely insane is just him not thinking about it correctly. caustic bronco is an amazing card right now and this hypothetical card would be double as good if we're talking dumb math, and it would probably be more than triple as good in practice and like he eventually said, easily bannable. in hs you just bop it with your creature, in magic it would basically be better ragavan.... so i don't think his hesitation says anything about how the game has changed lmao
I think Rarran didn't explain it well enough so CGB might have misunderstood it. CGB probably didn't realize it was an aura effect that would trigger every turn as long as Peasant stayed on board.
I feel like the big thing that wasn't explained is that draw two discard some cards is playable on its own in occulus. Your graveyard is a second hand and it helps you dump your threats, so it's functionally card advantage, and if it happens to make the octopus you win, so it's also a premium removal magnet.
Yeah I think he missed that you actually only need 5 cards in graveyard since Kiora discards 2 automatically. Ultimately I agree with their analysis that it just makes an already good deck slightly better. It's not like the deck that runs Oculus and Haughty Djinn desperately needs another 3 drop creature...
@@Waffletown654yeah, but Kiora has been slowing up in other decks as well so it’s not just oculus carrying it
The other big differences between hearthstone and magic when it comes to discard is that VERY few cards discard specific cards from your hand and that res effects in hearthstone don't affect discard cards. The unpredictability in hearthstone makes discard so much worse that Draw 2 Discard 2 look not nearly as good as it is in magic.
I love how Mesa Falcon Guy mentioned he played against Crim's Demonic Pact. He just forgot to tell Rarran how that duel ended.
The fact that you can choose what to block with and not to block makes so many mtg creatures so much better than most other card games. Like the fact that you can just choose not to block with Scooze till it's big instead of having it get smacked to death instantly matters so much.
Yeah, the real game changer is that creatures don't threaten other creatures, not by themselves at least. In games like Hearthstone or Yu-Gi-Oh, your minions/monsters _are_ removal, and that means that every deck is full of removal and you can't rely on them staying on the board.
I’d love to see rarran as a full-time mtg creator. Ik it might not be feasible since he prob has a lot of hearthstone followers, but love his personality and great to see him engaging with this game.
Also probably not going to happen since he _despises_ the land mechanic and is also lost in Bazaar.
1:03:42 in Hearthstone when cards says "cast" it implies that is "free" mana-cost, otherwise they use "play".
fun fact progenitus still sees play in legacy sideboards mostly elves that can natural order into it as early as turn 2, and occasionally show and tell runs it because it can't be hit by the usual counters to show and tell.
I think Atraxa completely replaced it but it was the best card to get (other than Craterhoof Behemoth) for a long time.
"Kiora is bad, it doesn't affect the board when you play it"
"Ohh I like Abyssal Harvester, a 3 mana do nothing with worse stats that doesn't even have an ETB effect"
Kiora may make the Scion of the Deep token every time she attacks as long as you meet or exceed 7 in your graveyard, but you can only ever have one Scion of the Deep token in play at one time as it is Legendary
For effects that prevent you from losing. You go into negative. So if you get dropped to -4, you need to heal 5 to return to 1 and survive if Herald or the source of the effect is removed.
48:30 A lil bit of correction, even if Harmless Offering is an instant or can be played at instant speed (due to some effects e.g. Vedalken Orrery) once you've chosen a mode you will be tagged as the mode 'owner'. You cant choose to 'lose the game' and offered the pact expecting your opponent to lose. Saying it doesn't work because its a sorcery doesnt mean a thing and will only confuse people.
I will forever ride the high of playing Foundations All-Access Constructed, and flashing in a Herald in response to Cat Pact
I would like to see Rarran react to Void Winnower and other memey cards. WOTC commenting "Your opponents can't even" is too good.
In modern Eldrazi decks and some "cheat out big creature" decks in pioneer Void Winnower is actually a reasonable sideboard card.
I love your chemistry with Rarran. He's such a fun guy.
I've seen content creators playing Kiora y various different decks, and it just works, if nothing else as an early threat and removal magnet while the deck works towards it's other win conditions.
Thanks!
19:30 Robber of the Rich was basically a 2 mana version of this with extra steps and it was still a banger.
In hearthstone, you could attack down peasant and many hero powers cleared it. In magic it would almost always require a spell to kill.
I really want to see Rarran's reaction to CGB getting mythic with Cat Pact
I am a huge Abyssal Harvester defender i think its severely underrated I've been playing it in mono black demons and I've won games straight up with just abyssal harvester and kill spells. I've beat Atraxa by killing it and then reanimating it. I've beat slasher by exiling it as it dies and then playing my own bloodletter. I think at its worst this card is an insane sideboard and I'd much rather have it over other graveyard hate.
I've been playing around with a creature based reanimator/cheating Rakdos pile and he's been holding his own alongside Archpriest of Shadows, Coffin Queen and Ancient Brass Dragon. Plus, his token stays if you lose him.
@ I’ve started to see it as just a 3 mana card that demands respect or else it could easily steal a game kinda like unstoppable slasher or even something like deep cavern bat
Counterpoint. You're playing mono black demons, which is strictly worse than Golgari and Dimir.
Progenitus is such a cool Timmy payoff, and I do kind of miss the old kitchen-table environments that you could get by with trying to pull it off. But it's really hard to try and regulate some type of intentionally powered down format, for similar reasons to the "my deck is a 7" problem, because some might take it to mean "Just the cards I have lying around, and maybe a small budget for additions" and someone else might take it as a challenge to make a ridiculous combo work, and those probably aren't going to be on the same power level.
If i don't get more videos with Rarran, I'm going to shit my pants.
Honestly I want to see a podcast where you two just talk about card philosophy and meta games and explaining them to each other.
Ashlizzle must live in Disney land as she had a really good win rate late 13-2 or sometime in bo3 with the sire+urborg combo
Yeh but sire wasn't even that good in that deck, for one Zetalpa and Atraxa were better.
"a bunch of keywords isnt enough"
Unkilliax:
The HS keywords though are sooo much more annoying though
I was looking for exactly this comment. My boy forgets quickly about zilliax. Guess too much bazaar
I really want CGB rarran and cimoooo to start a podcast together. Their chemistry is just fantastic and they all have different prospectives coming from different card games and entertainments. I would LOVE that. They could talk about the newest stuff happening in whatever of their specialty game. Make Comparisons with the other games. Maybe even talk card game history. It sounds super cool and interesting
57:30 you actually continue and get negative, which is relevant because if you gain life you might survive if they kill your Herald.
That Peasant card from Hearthstone would be insane in Magic. Imagine if Phyrexian Arena was 1 generic mana, didn’t hurt you, and had aggressive stats. Sure it’s easier to remove, but I still think that card sounds cracked. Obviously the fact that you can attack creatures in Hearthstone probably makes the card much more reasonable there
"In hearthstone a bunch of key words isn't enough"
Zillix entered the chat
Immediate board impact
unkilliax does have rush and taunt however, which is very relevant. it also has (hs equivalent) lifelink, deathtouch *and* comes back once when it dies *and* can't be targeted by instants and sorceries *and* negates the first hit it takes each time it comes back. the specific keywords on unkilliax are just about the best possible combination to make a really obnoxious defensive control minion.
Love me some 1 drop budgeting discussion, wish they kept talking about it more
Rarren wearing a Kurtis Connor shirt makes it even more of my youtube content crossover.
Crim is never gonna live down that 'hold this counterspell while I read this card' that he did to Voxy.
37:40 LOL. I've never heard Rarran laugh like that
In HS Gadgetzan Auctioneer is so crazy because you can generate coins and there is no colored mana. In MTG you won't be casting 0 mana spells with Archmage of Runes, but rather 1 blue mana spells. Also because of instant speed interaction/removal, you can't really bank on playing sorceries so you have to play instants only pretty much. Archmage of Runes won't see any play in standard, modern, etc but it will probably be a pretty good card in Commander.
For the second card, I think Rarran was more caught up on the first line of text. It’s good with things like Goblin Electromancer & Djinn. Just 5 mana is rough
Yeeeeeees, I love this long content of rating cards. I def want some more tourney stuff. I feel like we barely touched that too. More more more!! *hits the like button*
The best content around, CGB with Rarran and Cimo (and occasional other guys) ^^
In all card games that I could remember Spider-Man was an "small-stats-burst-effect"-guy, so yeah, I am sure he would be agro-man
And I think Rarran slighly overestimated Giant-wizard because he forgot that this 1 mana discount couldn't discount colored mana (by default, atleast). So while you could put broken stuff with Apprentice/Radiance Elemental in HS, most of the time it would need to get to 0 mana through discounts that could be achived because if you have 1 mana spell you would, well, get 0 mana spell. But with Giant if you have B Opt, it wouldn't become 0 Opt.
So if Giant could bring cost to 0 (or just cut color-cost in general) it would be a different story, because NOW you could dig through your deck or you would want to double them to sling big stuff for free and gain cards so you could sling more stuff.
I love the Homunculus Horde :D Both the art and the concept is just nice (:
Im glad these collabs have brought you into full podcast mode. Comment for algorithm purposes.
Edit: going to try to cook something up with Archmage of Runes, ramp hard get it out t3 / t4, ramp more into doppelgang or some such
I absolutely adore the energy this trio rarran cgb and cimo have
I run herald of eternal dawn in my standard angel deck as a one of. It probably isn't great but its won more than a handful of games on its own.
Kiora's ability to shove things into your graveyard is pretty good as well, unlike in Hearthstone where those cards are just gone.
Herald of Eternal dawn vs Thoracle would be hilarious though.
Thoracle trigger -> Herald -> pass pass win.
18:24 I honestly thought you were gonna show him Figure of Destiny.
Progenitus is/was being played in legacy elves
Progenitus has actually a pretty niche usecase against a mill deck:
If your opponent mills Progenitus, you can just put him back into the deck.
If Mill ever becomes a thing again, put 1 Progenitus into the sidedeck and keep your handsize at the max limit.
If your opponent mills Progenitus, back to the deck; if you draw Progenitus as your last card, send it for handsize at the end of the turn and back into the deck
Love that you're doing podcasts again even if they are TH-cam only right now that I can't really listen to on my commute. Is there any chance you'll be doing an actual audio only version of the podcast that we can subscribe to in our app of choice in the future?
Kiora is also great to flip up off of an Occulus. Also Kiora is played in some UB Frog decks in Modern.
One of the big things with Auctioneer vs the giant wizard is that the giant only removes colorless mana, so you'll get no free spells.
Progenitus was played in elves in legacy but its been a few years since that was the case. It was played because you could cheat it into play with natural order, which is a 4 mana green spell that says sacrifice a creature, search your library for a green creature to put onto the battlefield. Its been very powercrept though
Yeah. Now you only really get Craterhoof Behemoth or Atraxa.
I've really been enjoying the cross-pollination between both of you and Cimo. I'd love to see a Pokémon player added to the mix and have some kind of 4-way collab, either rating or straight up playing all 4 of these card games with each other.
19:30 so better dark confidant? Yeah that is absolutely getting played.
We need more rarran + convertgoblue content, i watched it all ahaha
Yall mentioned how having "preparation" in hearthstone allowed a simular card to the archmage to be viable...
We do have Plot in standard right now. There is potential to plot a card like the discard 1 draw 2 card, then play this and cast for free to get immediate card advantage.
Still probably too slow. But a neat build around idea.
Is daddy proty deck viable in standard for a noob or atraxa is better
Always love when you collab with Rarran!
I love that the “gotcha” aspect has been massively deemphasised in this video. It’s just a chat about some new and old magic cards, I love it.
I would even go as far to say the “correct” and “wrong” dings are unnecessary at this point. Especially because “correct” actually just means “agrees with CGB”. Even he admits he could be wrong about some of this! I think it cheapens the video and slightly ruins the laid-back chat vibe.
Still loved the vid, it was my favourite one between the two of you in a while.
I feel like the way Rarran was talking about Archmage of Runes he was expecting it to reduce color pip mana costs and not just generic.
CGB I hope you know you could make this type of video with Cimooooooo and Rarren on just about any set or collection of cards and I would watch without hesitation. Love this content and I really love watching these guys slowly become better at evaluating a different game than their own.
44:20 what the hell protection from everything even means? Serious question. I'm new into magic (friend convinced me to try comander) and very confused right now xD
The thing about Demonic Pact is that it's other three effects are pretty sick. Removal and card advantage is awesome. Add in the fact that Bargain still exists in standard, and I think you have quite the deck going.
When I played Magic regularly, I loved zombie decks with big green creatures. No forests in deck at all, these wyrms are only coming out undead.
Peak progenitus was using it as a card to exile to blazing shoal on a blighted agent
thing about archmage of runes is if you're ahead by turn 5, you really need something to turn the corner, and if you're behind, you can't afford to tap out to look towards the future, and its effects are not strong enough to do either by itself
45:20 Progenitus got Blazing Shoal banned in Modern. Glistener Elf was the real culprit--yet another instance of WotC properly identifying the problem, then banning the wrong card, like a Bond villain chastizing their underling, then killing another random underliing to teach the chastized one "not to fail me".
I mean infect just remained a playable deck for a few years, and isn't even that anymore. Glistener Elf is powerful, but not a problem.
@@Frommerman: That's as maybe, but -it's still a frog- it doesn't really address the systemic issue: that infect itself was the problem, and Glistener Elf was the most powerful avatar ("But isn't it a Phyrexian Elf Warrior, and not an Avatar?" "Quiet, you!") of that keyword's inherent problems, most of which were fixed by the later innovation, toxic.
By being 1 mana, it could get in under all but one counterspell on-curve (and that one was banned from the format, so...), and the combo reduced infect to R&D's greatest fear for the ability, namely that it'd become "just another life total", to quote MaRo.
My main gripe with the situation can be boiled down to Dark Ritual/Hypnotic Specter: they correctly identified that turn 1 Hyppie was back-breakingly demoralizing, but instead of banning the _real_ problem card, the one that allows turn 1 Hyppie to be a thing (along with all the other problems that fast mana cause), they banned the Specter.
@@sdfkjgh Yeah, losing to Infect feels unfair. But I play Amulet Titan, unfair is where I start before leaping into "indistinguishable from a child blatantly cheating against their friends" territory.
Inkmoth Nexus was way more of a problem with Shoal than Glistener Elf ever was. Unless you ban the entire mechanic, Shoal was absolutely the problem. Infect has been playable but never a problem without Shoal.
And certainly banning all 9+ MV red cards isn't an option so I don't know what this has to do on the topic of Progenitus.
"I cast Herald of Eternal Dawn. You're milling means nothing to me blue player!"
"Damn. Guess I should have held up counterspell... So anyways, Unsummon?"
"They know exactly what I'm going for here-"
I didn't even play when Jackal Pup was played, and even I knew what it was.
I have a Kiora, Rising Tide commander deck, and its based around making copies of Kiora and getting Mirror Box out. Fun times
I love my baby progen. He sits in my morophon mutate commander deck waiting to slap some people around
So here's the thing about scavenging ooze: you leave up one mana, and if they *don't* have removal, you can wait for them to try and reanimate something and then exile *that* in response.
Rarran is so kind and handsome whenever he’s on cgb’s videos
Happy thanksgiving CGB and Rarran
45:30 Progenitus was the Blazing Shoal pitch card in some early Modern Infect decks!
As someone who plays UW Tempo, you get the Octopus a lot, but you really don't care if they kill Kiora. It's all about the draw and discard to get those Oculus in the hand out or fix lands.
Edit: I've considered putting Abyssal Harvester in the deck with no ways to actually cast it.
The easy thing to overlook with Archmage is that almost all instants and sorceries have at least 1 colored mana in their costs. As any Feather, the Redeemed player will tell you, there's only so far you can get in "spell" heavy decks with generic mana(/cost reduction). Also, the reasonable cost for creature removal in MtG is simply half that of Hearthstone.
Mono-blue Homonculus trivial is going to be the next meme that magic creates and I'm here for it.
Just a thought about demonic pact:
It's not just the combo that is good, you can also get value from the card before gifting it. And maybe you could deck in cards that allows you to sacrifice the pact for an additional benefit before it can kill you.
Just a thought.
The best part of these videos is seeing how different mechanics affect the different playstyles in different games. Like for Kiora, that effect would be game breaking in YuGiOh, but Magic has costs and is more tempo focused so it's just good but hasn't been proven great yet, but Hearthstone doesn't have a discard pile and already has strong draw power so it would be unplayable there.
Still not quite Number 5 by my count! But happy to see more Podcast
Rarran: Understands why Zombify + Koma is good.
Also Rarran: Still doesn't understand why Kiora is good when she curves directly into Zombify after looting two cards.
Rules Question. If you have Doubling season and activate Abyssal Harvester do you get both tokens or does one token get exiled?
I would GUESS not 100% sure you get 2 copies but if you did it again it exiles the 2 .. not 100%
So did you ever end up doing the reverse of this video for The Great Dark Beyond?