I think the wildest part about the lying debacle is that it started with one player making a callout post on twitter towards another player. It wasn't someone opening a discussion, it was someone posting a clip with someone elses name in an attempt to shame their actions and affect their tournaments in the future. I think that's insane behavior, and I don't see how any format that could have standings be affected by twitter drama is taken that seriously.
If it had happened during the tournament he would have been in trouble for poor sportsmanship. I would give serous though to not inviting him to the next one.
@@AngelusNielson But it's not bad sportsmanship. The guy who got upset essentially got upset because one player held hidden information from the rest, which was absolutely in that player's rights. The upset person's argument can't be "I would have played differently if I had known your hidden information" because he had no right to that information. You're under no obligation to telegraph what you're going to do on your turn. You're under no obligation to hold to what you said you were going to do during previous turns. If you're gonna politick be explicit about the deals you want to make. "I will take care of this if no one tries to win for a turn cycle". Don't just take "I can't win next turn" at face value.
Before talking about spoilers for a new set it might be a good idea to brush up on the already spoiled cards. T-45 isn't a banger but when your commander gives u energy for casting an artifact it can play a role, same with not knowing what the rad counters were even though they showed up in video in the edit
I finally got the willpower to beat FO4 a while ago and I never spoke to him, only annoyance lies down that path. Is a bit of a wasted slow considering how many iconic characters didn't get a card IMO.
Preston Garvey is from Fallout 4. He's one of the first NPCs you encounter, and he's the quest-giver for the Minutemen faction - who are all about building and building up settlements. This showcases a gameplay feature - settlement construction, where the main PC organizes entire communities, setting up fields of crops, water purifiers, vendors, and designing their homes - a touch of The Sims in the post apocalypse I guess. (and doing this does get you raw resources that are useful; e.g. Purified Water is a basic health item, and worth money, so producing X every Y time period allows you to heal up between combats and get extra money just for visiting your settlements). So 100% flavour win for him to be all about building up settlements and then winning the game through the resources generated by these seemingly humble settlements of just a handful of random people - that's how Minutemen playthroughs end, with the common people united to take control of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts from initially more powerful factions. He's also memetically annoying, because the quests he gives are procedurally generated so it gets a little repetitive... oh look, a repetitive ability that makes settlements. :D
Nothing you say is ever a bluff. Your actions are a bluff. A bluff is when you take a risk using in-game mechanics to try and convince your opponent to think the hidden information they don't have is something that it isn't. i.e, holding a card in hand and 2 blue mana up every round is a bluff (if you don't have the counterspell). Proclaiming you have the counterspell is not a bluff. A bluff relies on your opponent misinterpreting the facts. It's an ACTION that takes place solely with in-game mechanics. No communication whatsoever. If you need to say something to "bluff", you didn't bluff, you're just stupid and have no idea what you're doing. Here's a pointed example, because MtG players tend to be pretty low on brain cells. If I'm attacking you with a single 2/2 while you have a 4/5, you decide to block precisely by whether you think I'm bluffing the kill on your big creature. That's a bluff. Nobody said a damn thing. The game state made all of these details apparent.
@@MakeVarahHappen Can I interest you in a game of Poker? Or Bridge? Or Pokemon? Or YuGiOh? Or literally any card game with hidden information and therefore bluffing?
from my knowledge of cedh, unlike other competitive formats, the fact that there are multiple people means there IS going to be some amount of social strategy. Obviously you are always aiming for a personal win (ie. you're not on a team), but staying in your own lane is not necessarily the best strategy, and I think that social aspect of cedh makes the lying situation in some ways different than just lying/rules lawyering in a 1v1 format, as in those formats you can just ignore the opponent 99 times out of 100. That being said... I think lying in an attempt to get a win is perfectly legal and fine to do. The goal of cedh is to win, and if lying/misinforming an opponent helps you towards that goal, so be it. I see it as the same thing as passing priority on a spell that should be countered when you have a counterspell in hand, even saying "i don't have anything for that" even if you do, in order to hold onto that spell to protect your own win. Sure, you lied, but it was in order to get the win, which is the end goal. If people get upset that you lied, they are also fully free and valid to be so, thus is the power of free speech. Long story short i think lying in part of the game, and in a competitive tournament, you've gotta take what your opponents say with a grain of salt.
Here's what Radiation/Rad Counters do for anyone watching and curious. Source is from the MTG wiki Radiation means that at the beginning of the precombat main phase, a player must mill a card for each rad counter they have. For each nonland card milled this way they lose 1 life and remove a rad counter. A rad counter is a counter that, unlike most other counters, is placed on players rather than objects.
For the CEDH tournament, do we even know if he was lying? Like at the last Commander Night event at my LGS we all knew who was winning, next player had an infinite combo set up to win, I was just able to counter his commander the previous turn to stop it (I impulse drew the pyroblast with Prosper during the previous turn end step and he didn't have the colors to recast or the mana to pay tax) and I was able to impulse draw probably the one card in my deck that let me win on that turn. I'm not going to win can turn into I will win right now with the right top deck
Nothing you say is ever a bluff. Your actions are a bluff. A lie is when you say something that's just not true. A bluff is where you make a correct play for a hand you don't have. If we're playing texas hold'em, lets say the flop is 9 10 Q, I've got 2 4 in the hole, and I give a big raise, at that point I'm bluffing the inside straight. My actions are scaring people into reacting to a hand of cards that I literally don't have. I'm not telling them anything. They're interpreting the information everyone has incorrectly. However, if I'm instead simply calling every round while loudly proclaiming to have the inside straight, that's not a bluff, it's just a lie. Well, it's also definitely a violation of the rules of the game at any respectable establishment, and most home games as well, but that's beside the point. Bluffs are risks taken for the chance at a better outcome than would otherwise occur, all done with in-game mechanics. Lies are attempts to use out-of-game functions to get an unfair advantage in-game at no risk. It's cheating. It's not that different from pulling out a gun and shooting your opponent to claim a "victory". You couldn't win at the game so you tried to feel like you're not a loser by getting outside help.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 unlike poker they allow politicking isn't it? so unless you are going to make specific rule that is going to punish "lies" then it is a fair game.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 If an opponent tells you "I'm going to win Next turn" and you lose because you player according to a piece of information disclosed by a person whose only purpose is to see you lose, you have only yourself to blame 😂.
@@KPX01 "It's not explicitly stated that this isn't ok, therefore it's ok" has never at any point been a valid argument, for any game, ever. A rather heavy-handed example, there's no rule that says you're not allowed to physically harm opposing players to get your way, therefore by the exact logic you're using it's fair to do so.
I think Assassin's Creed will be the big wake up call for UB. Assassin's Creed is 10 years past its prime, isn't a pop-culture defining franchise like LotR and Marvel, and isn't a niche franchise with a passionate fanbase like Doctor Who and Warhammer. Add to the fact that it's being sold in the terrible epilogue boosters that we already know sell terribly, I think that AC may sell even worse than Aftermath. The only way it sells is if they purposefuly print some crazy busted modern staple on the level of The One Ring or Orcish Bowmasters.
Ikr what are they even talking about. 😂 It's a competition and there's money on the line. It's not kitchen EDH where "everybody needs to have fun". I don't know how you can enter a tournament and then expect your opponents to always be truthful. The only thing you need to expect is that they follow the rules of the tournament. "Is it worth it winning a tournament in exchange of having a bad boy reputation?" Are we in elementary school? What's happening, are edh players ok? 😂 Sounds like they've been coddled too long and forgot what the real world is like.
@hammernnaila7031 Depends what you lie about. You are obligated to maintain a clear board state and you can't lie about known information. I don't know what other card games you're talking about but I'd be suprised if you weren't allowed to bluff. That's a major part of even games like Uno, you constantly bluff about what you have and don't have in hand. It's about mind games.
@@vulcanh254 The specific statement of 'I cannot kill you' would be grounds for a game loss in almost every major TCG. Yu-Gi-Oh, F&B, any card game that has interaction on your opponents turn lying is exactly against the rules except in Magic for some reason. Rules Lawyering is also grounds for a warning.
@@hammernnaila7031 So to be clear I don't know the literal context of the lie in question. I'm just going off by what Seth, Richard and Crim are saying. They gave multiple examples from telling your opponent that "you're not going to wrath next turn", "don't worry I don't have a counterspell", to pretending you don't have Settle the Wreckage in hand. Those are obviously bluffs. So that makes the topic confusing because now we're saying simple bluffs like that are too mean and shouldn't be allowed in tournaments, which obviously doesn't make any sense. So the full context would've been helpful to have. If you say "don't worry I can't combo next turn" and then you combo next turn, that's ok. BUT if you pretend that your enchantment in play isn't going to make you win on your next upkeep when it will, then that's misrepresenting the board state and lying about known information. I'm confused as to why people are mixing both of those things as if they're the same thing though.
I think with the CEDH thing, the guy who "Lied" (It's a harsh term though, isn't it?) was asked if he was going to win on his turn and said no, which caused the other player to become an unwilling "kingmaker," which is a big stigma in the CEDH community because a lot of CEDH players left the Commander community because they didn't like the political aspects of the games. So instead of being accused of being a kingmaker, he accuses the other player of being a liar. That's what I'm reading from the situation, anyway. Preston Garvey is great and I think his card is great too. The fallout set seems to be crafted with lots of love so far.
Personally I don't think CEDH players should be politicking at all, considering how disadvantageous it is. The only communication I'd want in a CEDH game, especially if it's a paid event, is only when players announce their plays or have responses. If players wanna politic, they should just play normal Commander.
@@TastySnackies If politics are helping you to win the game, then you're being at your most competitive when you are the successful politician. You cannot purge the multiplayer effect from the multiplayer game.
Hey gang! to the topic question: no i dont think lying is against the rules nor is it even really in bad sportsmanship of the game. Crim made a good point that we often are doing everything in our power to fake out the opponent. We politic in EDH, which is what this sounds like they did, we leave mana open to bluff the counter or protection spell when really we have nothing. I even will, to Crims point, on Arena if i really want the oppenent to swing on my 'open board' so i can Settle the Wreckage their entire team and punish their greedy 26 point attack when they could've killed me me with one creature by sending them the "Good Game" to fake out that i'm defenseless. If players are not wary of subterfuge in a game that is resource intensive, complex in timing and prone to disruptive plays like counterpulls and hand attack, then they have their own player skill to complain about. its exactly why we teach newer players to cast their spells in the 2nd Mainphase, so we can bluff in the attack or have reacts up. thats basic playership. Also ESPECIALLY in Commander, game states change at every second. What may have been a board state I have no interest in interacting with mmay turn into a prime need for a board wipe in the single once around the table. Thye may had no intention of winning that turn but drew the nut card, or they foudn themselves in a board state that needed them to win now or they were going to throw the game. and in a CEDH tournament you cant expect someone to throw a match because of good manners or poltiics. PS Im the one that Settled Seth 3 times in a single match in Viewer battles a few years ago, and I let Seth walk into those each time because i NEEDED him to, I had a slow hand i needed time to get set up.
It's a shame the reserve list is going to stop them from making the Infinity Stones altered art/named Moxes. Now THAT would make it competitive with the LOTR set.
If they really wanted to, they could. They don't even have to break the RL to do it. People put way too much faith in that RL. As soon as they can milk every last drop from Magic and just kill it off and sell it, they will reprint the RL. Until then, it's not really hard for them to make exact copies with different names.
Marvel’s Universes Beyond is going to be interesting to watch. The comics, movies, and shows are not anywhere near where they were for popularity even just 2-3 years ago. I worry that they may have waited too long to get the full impact.
For the universes beyond, I'm almost certain that we will have revisits to old universes beyond like richard mentioned, which will be interesting to see.
In general, I feel like lying about the rules, about public information, or to a tournament official is bad, but for the most part lying to your opponent about private information is okay. That being said, you generally wait to tone it down in a more casual setting in the same way that I might let my opponent know about niche rules interactions (you might want to crack your fetch before pithing needle resolves, etc) before they happen in a casual setting or in the same way I might let them not miss triggers or take back lesser misplays. If you are a player in a tournament, just remember that your opponent isn't required to tell you the truth, so take what they say with a grain of salt. "I don't have an answer" might mean "I don't see that as a threat to me". Talk is cheap.
Seth: is this a step in that direction? Yes, it is definitely *a* step in that direction. It is not *all of* the steps in that direction. It's a sliding scale with all Magic IP on one end and all UB IP on the other. I don't think we'll ever be completely on one end of the scale again but I expect wizards to adjust that slider as they feel necessary. Lying in cedh is exactly the same as lying in commander. It's legal, you can do it, and nothing is stopping you from using it to win a game. The reason you don't do it is because doing it once means you now have an untrustworthy reputation that follows you into future games and makes deal making more difficult for you. Is one victory worth making all politics more difficult or down right impossible in your future games?
Gonna put this out there that Brandon Sanderson, a prolific author, is a HUGE MTG fan, and has a whole universe of potential characters. And his fans are zealots for nerd stuff. Theres even a world where a bunch of Gods exist that all are based on different colors. Would be so easy and cool.
Had an idea for the perfect IP for universes beyond: Dark Tower. It's literally about crossing different planes of reality, enough story and characters to build a full set
I do not untap with my hand; he who untaps with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I untap with my eye. I do not draw for turn with my hand; he who draws for turn with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I draw for turn with my mind. I do not swing for lethal with my creature; he who swings for lethal with his creature has forgotten the face of his father. I swing for lethal with my heart.
I was playing a game of five player commander with my friends, and one player was playing a deck where he steals everything from other players and uses them against us. I had just had my commander stolen and I couldn't resummon the commander. I couldn't kill it either. I decided to swing everything at my other friend who was wide open so i could get some lifegain and card draw with my other creatures. That friend then told me before I was finished declairing attackers that he had a board wipe in his hand and would use it next turn if i let him live. He was the very next person to go, so this sounded like a good deal to me. Everyones things, including his, that were stolen would be put back in the grave. I shook his hand on it and told him that it would be us in the end to battle it out, and we formed an alliance. I played my aura shards and passed turn. The next turn that ally of mine played a spell to steal my aura shards and then played a bunch of creatures to kill all my enchantments, then passed turn. That next players turn he stole the aura shards and that other guys commander and killed him. He then went on to play creatures and destroy all enchantments and artifacts on the board while keeping me alive with one health. Destroying or stealing every single thing i played. It was awful, and i felt so betrayed, but it was perfectly legal to screw me over, and he paid the consequences for that play.
And in doing so, he completely destroyed any future equity he had with you, assuring you'd never trust him in the game again. Short term gain, long term loss.
That's a cool story of friendship and betrayal but I'm trying to understand how it relates to a tournament setting. Why should I care if you never trust me again? I just crushed you in a tournament and got my prize. I don't care if you don't trust me anymore because you're not supposed to trust your opponent anyway. Again, in a tournament. That's not supposed to be a thing to begin with. Your story is about a casual game with friends so it's different. It seems obvious to me that you should forget everything you think you know about EDH the moment you enter a tournament. 😅
The only things you can't lie about are state based actions(draw, upkeep, cast, cards in hand), everything else is fair game("i'll counter if you play X", "i have 5 islands in my hand", "i haven't combo'd yet").
In regards to the UB story at the beginning: Disney would have to axe Lorcana before they could license to WotC for a Disney UB. Ravensberger owns the card printing license for Disney and has been doing amazing for them. It is unlikely they would drop them for one small set over the steady hype-based income of Lorcana.
Seth's take on cheating is absolutely wild here. He essentially says, "If my opponent in a tournament was playing proxies, I wouldn't care. If I knew their deck was 59 cards and not 60, I wouldn't care. I would never call out blatant cheating, because it would somehow label me as a scumbag player for the next 20 years." Seth, if your opponent is cheating, how are you the scumbag for calling them out? They are the scumbag for going against the rules to create an unfair advantage.
I think maybe the scumbag part is immediately rushing to a judge to get someone disqualified rather than giving them a chance to fix the issue. Just a simple "hey, I only counted 59 cards in your deck. are you missing a card?" before running off to the judge would give them a chance to fix the issue before it became serious. Maybe they did try to cut a card illegally or maybe it was an honest mistake and one got stuck in the deck box - you have zero information on how it happened. Either way, you're not in the wrong for calling a judge because they're down a card, but how you handle the situation shows what kind of person you are.
@@enoesiw You said it yourself there, you have zero information. Maybe this player always deliberately keeps 1 card in their deck box to play it off as an honest mistake if they get called out on it. In your example, what are you supposed to do about proxies? Ask them if their card is fake, and if they say no, just trust them? Judges are at tournaments to make sure that the game is being played correctly, and if it is not, then it is up to the judge to decide how to fix it and what kind of penalty should be given. They also keep records of game/match losses due to judge calls, so they can see patterns in players. If a player gets a judge called on them once for 59 cards and it turns out the last card is in the box, worst thing that will happen is a game loss. If that same player has the same call multiple times with the same result, now we're talking deliberate cheating with potential bans from competitive play. And isn't that what we want? To make this community better by weeding out the people who would take advantage of others?
When you were reading down the biggest franchises I had a theory come to mind. I bet MetaZoo wanted a Hail Mary so they googled “biggest franchises”, saw that the top two already had TCGs, then picked the next biggest one (Hello Kitty) and thought it would be as close to popularity as pokemon or Disney 😂
My hot takes on UB: LotR and D&D did it right with adding regular draft with the sets vs just the collector boosters. The UB sets could replace the masters/ horizons/ legends sets and allow them into modern.
I know Final Fantasy isn’t exactly Lotr but I feel like it’s a fairly deep well with pretty diehard fans but not an exact 1/1 ring type of thing that could be used given 16+ games don’t really intertwine but have plenty of continued references so there’s plenty you could serialize but nothing 2million dollars worthy. But I agree you can only force so much till you’re at the jiffy lube secret lairs. I have a buddy I play with whose reputation is the guy who goes back on a deal immediately so don’t bother making one. Either make them have it or get bluffed it’s gonna happen and scummy or not the win is the win when it matters.
Regarding UB Disney - there was a leak a while back that a Disney princess SL was in the works, and I THINK (but I'm not sure) that it was leaked by the same person that leaked some other things that have happened, like Quintorius becoming a PW and a cowboy/western set. So that could be in the pipeline, but it seems somewhat unlikely at this point given Lorcana (these leaks happened before Lorcana was announced IIRC).
Honestly an Avatar Universes Beyond would do well. They already have color divisions and could flavor well in the MTG Universe. Another one that might be a stretch would be Fate series which would allow the entry of iconic heroes and their flavors into MTG. I would love a Gilgamesh or Arturia Pendragon card.
We know they're making multiple Marvel sets, and there's enough material for near-infinite sets. I think 2 UB sets a year means one Marvel and one non-Marvel. We also know one of the UB sets is taking the place of a Magic-IP set, so I think at least one of the UB sets will probably be Standard legal, and I'd put my money on that being the Marvel set. They may also make straight-to-Modern(/Pioneer?) Marvel sets, but I think they want to funnel the new players through Standard rather than throwing them into more powerful non-rotating formats. To Crim's point about needing to be Modern legal to push power level, they can still print above-Standard-power level cards in Commander products for a Standard legal set.
Technically nothing illegal about lying, but cEDH is that anomaly where you're playing to win but also in a social interaction meta. Usually that table discussion is about stopping someone else's win. So flat out lying there is super scummy, misrepresenting in a way that others can't threat assess properly. I think spotlighting that as a reputation of that person for future games is the best you can do.
I would say that no lying is very much not okey in a tournament, but people are either directly or indirectly able to benefit from both lying and cheating in MTG tournaments.
The magic tournament rules prohibit lying to opponents about public information. They also prohibit lying to a tournament official about any information. They do not prohibit lying to an opponent about private information. I would also argue against lying being bad sportsmanship in all games since plenty use it as a core mechanic (Coup, BS, Among Us).
Careful what you wish for Crim, Sage of Lat-Nam somehow got upshifted from common in Antiquities to a Rare in 8th Edition. To this day no one knows why.
I think Indestructible still matters in 2024 (Avacyn is still $40!) even when Farewell and Sunfall exist, but yeah, that card's pretty rough, lol. I'm wondering if maybe they're focusing more on nailing the experience of playing the four decks together, board game style, as an experience for Fallout fans, rather than on how playable the cards are in the broader metagame... But they do also softball previews a bit to start, so we'll probably see a handful of busted cards by the time we have the full lists (and these typically have reprints, too Outside of the cards being playable or not, the art direction for the set seems good so far. Some of the UB stuff just hasn't "looked" like Magic art (this happens most often with the ones featuring actors), and that's made it more jarring, but so far the Fallout cards seem to fit in fairly well
They'd be fools to not do more insane UB sets... however they're gonna burn through the good options for those within 5 years. They can do smaller releases like 4 commander decks or secret lair things or w/e for tons of stuff but for full premium sets??? there's not enough options to do this for a decade if they're doing 2+ per year.
For universes Beyond sets where you are unfamiliar with the IP, maybe you can collab with a TH-cam involved with that IP, or someone else in the MTG scene that can help with the lore and stuff, might make it make more sense!
The only to be honest in EDH is being able to politic. It is incentivized through gameplay, not social contract. Once you lie, you lose a viable game action because the other players know you will lie. it's the same reasoning for honoring deals. It's not a matter of social contract, it's a matter of game strategy.
In ALL games with social element your reputation is a resource. If you believe lying to win at the cost of reputation is the correct play then you go for it. It's important to always ask Seth's question of "is it worth it in the long run?". The bigger the price the more worth this is. You can prob have 2 big lies before no one trusts you anymore. Also lies work only when ppl believe them in the first place, if no one believes then lies are just jokes as they lose their primary function. In everyone lies meta everyone plays around the correct decisions, in no one lies meta you can exploit ppl lacking of critical information by making one sided deals.
43:26 I dunno. Good sportsmanship is pretty important in all other professional sports. Things that aren’t against the rules specifically are still looked down on or can even result in penalties and fines. Isn’t being to mean in football a thing? I’m not saying it has to go that far but just because you can’t doesn’t mean you should.
It really depends though. What is our isn't good sportsmanship depends a lot in the game. Games like Coup, BS, Among Us and Secret Hitler all have lying as core mechanics so it would be hard to argue that it universally must be bad sportsmanship. In addition, in the magic tournament rules, there is a section dedicated to the rules around player communication (4.1). In that section, there is a rule stating you may not misrepresent free, derived or status information (which make up all public information) incorrectly. There is also a rule saying that players must answer all questions that a judge asks them completely and honestly regardless of the type of information. There is no rule restricting communication about private information to your opponent. Given that, I find it hard to believe that the absence is an accident or unintentional loophole. If they wanted to make lying to your opponent in general against the rules they would have done so in that section.
@@seandun7083 those games are very different because lying is literally the core mechanic that makes those games work. Again, just because something isn’t against the rules doesn’t mean it isn’t unsportsmanlike. There’s a difference between being sneaky and tricky and lying. It’s easy to just say nothing 🤷♀️
How is lying in magic not ok? As long as you're not lying about how a rule works or like, what a card in a foreign language does etc Question, did the player draw the winning card on his draw step?
A few words about Crim & Richard thinking Final Fantasy won't smash Lord of the Rings in terms of popularity: Amano Final Fantasy 7 chase-cards ( Cloud, Sephiroth, Aerith, etc..). I think Marvel is obviously bigger than all of them, but I think it's going to be a lot closer between Final Fantasy & Lord of the Rings than Crim or Richard are thinking. I think the only potential problem is that the style of Final Fantasy could clash with Magic depending on what they take from the games/worlds built, as Lord of the Rings setting is very old-Magic-like. However, the Japanese planeswalkers were really popular in War, some still commanding ridiculous prices, and I will be entirely shocked if Final Fantasy doesn't use that same opportunity & just end up crushing Lord of the Rings because of it.
I think the issue with Final Fantasy is that outside FF7, none of it is particularly memorable other than the meme stuff like chocobo’s, ridiculously large swords, limit break summons, some sort of flying ship, every game had a Cid etc.
@@Dragon_Fyre You literally just ran off an entire list of things after saying it's not memorable. Lol. Do you think the average person knows much about Lord of the Rings outside of the memes? God no. They have the same general cursory knowledge about the franchise.
Thought experiment: Player A has two possible routes to take on their turn. One route gives up the game to Player B but advances their boardState, one doesn’t. Player A asks Player B if they can win the game next turn. Does Player B have to tell the truth? Is it bad form if he ‘lies’ and says he cannot win? This highlights the absurdity of the entire drama. It’s operating from the standpoint that we as players are robots with no effect on the game. Piloting a deck, and navigating the table, the other players is a critical aspect of the game. Just as much as the deck itself, and double so in a multiplayer format like commander. Each and ever player makes smaller less dramatic reads on opponents plays at every point of the game. There are little bluffs and reveals every turn. A cash tournament should be treated like a poker tournament. It’s a competition. Each player has agreed to compete to win. If someone bluffs me on a casual table maybe I’ll think their a jerk but if we are in a tournament that’s a sign of a good player and I’d make my hat off to the bluff.
About the lair drop.... I am pretty sure this will be one of the best selling ones of all. To make it not feel scummy in some way they should put all profits of it to charity. Like that it feels like, we know this is gonna sell very well and let's cash in and have some people think we are good people.... Don't know on the other hand I expected the price of it beeing like 60 bucks.... Like they did in the past. We do 50% but actually you are just paying 50% more for it. But I do love the art for inkshield and the command tower. The teferis pro just looks like it was some leftover art and the sol ring looks like leftover from lotr... But Stil... Yeah gonna have to see how the pricing in Europe is. Usually our secret lairs are more expensive than in America. 🙄 About the percentage to charity. Other companies that want to have a good look on them or want to actually do something good do that to and wizards is big enough to pay 7 artists and do that if they would really want to do something good. 🤔 But that could be hasbro sitting in there back aswell.... Who knows. The lair looks good so far and has some beautiful pieces in it and definitely will make people remember him.
Seth is way off base on the lying in cEDH thing being poor form. There is an entire colour pairing literally top to bottom built on deceit and deception, and it's a very fun game style. However, he is bang on target about it being something that people assign to you as a personality trait. It's hard to escape the label of "blue player", you see discrimination against it everywhere in the community.
Final Fantasy is obviously not on the level of LotR / Marvel but it is still a hugely popular IP with a hardcore dedicated fanbase that loves to spend money. The FF set will do gangbusters.
To your thoughts on cEDH drama, I come from a board gaming background and plenty of games have room for politics, table talk, etc. and are usually 4+ players in a game. I've been to tournaments where plaques have been the prize (though no cash prizes) but it's generally accepted that persuading other players to take actions in games where there is a political and interactive factor is just part of the game, and the players have learned that you just need to have a thick skin, and should take targeted attacks against you not as an offense, but as a sign of respect for the strength of your position, playstyle, or skill, and move on. My thoughts is that cEDH/EDH players really need to adopt this outlook on games. Yeah, it's a casual game, that doesn't mean there isn't going to be a winner, and that the fun of the game can't be the pursuit of victory. You do your best to win and if you lose, you try again for the next one. Personally I find it shocking that people just don't get this simple concept: it's okay to win, and it's okay to lose, and sometimes being the "little guy" in a pod can let you win, because nobody targets you and then your explosive combo goes off.
15:12 WAITAMINUT!! Steamboat Willie is public domain!! WotC should just PRINT a Steamboat Willie card, Disney can’t stop ‘em! That might hurt the chances of future Disney crossovers, tho.
cEDH opponents: Why did you believe the words of someone trying to win a competitive tournament? What incentive or obligation did you have to believe the words of someone trying to win a competitive tournament? You allowed it to happen. You allowed to happen. You. Allowed it to happen.
1. Football (most popular sport) on its highest tournament level is literally won and lost on players faking falls... 2. If I hear Sett say Shopify 1 more time, I'll see future videos soundless.
I feel people keep glossing over the fact that Lord of the Rings did well hugely influenced by the lottery card. If it didn't have the One Ring 1 of 1, would it be the best selling set? I don't think so.
I mean if they use a proxy it doesn’t affect anything gameplay wise they can still beat you with that card just can’t afford it. I guess u could say they could potentially cut to it if it’s not similar enough quality but otherwise it does feel kinda scummy to call out a proxy.
Man I just don't get lying conversations. I play on a pretty simple bar of just not revealing any information (this is why I am not the biggest fan of online simulators tbh). Someone asks me if I'm holding a counterspell? I'm not gonna answer that. I'm not gonna freely say "oh I don't have a removal spell" because that for one is just fucking stupid, and for two who are you expecting to get with that? New players? Players you could probably already beat? Just by not revealing any information, you get to do all the call bluffs everyone likes. Holding up two blue mana doesn't communicate I have anything, it merely communicates I have the possibility, and I want players to worry about that. Leave your opponent the option to make mistakes. I genuinely don't believe any of the "oh lying is part of the game" people really do it ever and I don't believe they have a good success rate with it either. If I felt the need to say deliberately incorrect information, I probably need to build a better deck or just get better at the actual playing of the card game lmao.
If they are going to do anime UB they should due volumes and have 3 anime’s per set Like anime UB vol 1 could be DBS, Bleach and Black clover Vol 2 could be One piece, sailor moon and Naruto
Nothing will ever touch LOTR as an MTG crossover set; LOTR (the books) are of the foundations of fantasy media and the Peter Jackson movies were massive for people that are 35-50 now.
lying and therefore bluffing is not cheating... they are two completely different things... so bluffing is not a bad thing in strategy games, in fact it is part of the strategy
This isnt a rules debate its a sportsmanship debate. Theres plenty of things that are valid by the rules in sports and other games but frowned upon. Direct lying like that would be a bad sportsmanship but not the end of the world. No worse than scoring on a victory formation in football.
Bluffing and lying aren't the same, bluffing does not require lying at all. It isn't that hard to keep things ambiguous and uncertain in your statements. Those that lack the capacity to bluff without spouting straight up lies are the ones trying to confound the two terms.
I think we are finally seeing WotC/Hasbro cresting the wave of the last 3-4 years of squeezing the MTG brand super hard. I think we've hit peak saturation of MTG profits, and once WotC starts decreasing in revenue, Hasbro is screwed.
MTG influencers discovering bluffing
Sneaky sir! Are Crim and Richard really that influential? They don't seem to have the pulse of competitive MtG.
I think the wildest part about the lying debacle is that it started with one player making a callout post on twitter towards another player. It wasn't someone opening a discussion, it was someone posting a clip with someone elses name in an attempt to shame their actions and affect their tournaments in the future. I think that's insane behavior, and I don't see how any format that could have standings be affected by twitter drama is taken that seriously.
If it had happened during the tournament he would have been in trouble for poor sportsmanship.
I would give serous though to not inviting him to the next one.
@@AngelusNielsona format that prides itself on politicking into wins constantly gets mad someone didn’t hand them perfect information
@@cdee34 Winning is not the best thing it's the only thing, eh? Bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship, period.
If you're using Twitter for anything other than food pictures, femboy pictures, or hentai pictures, you're doing it wrong
@@AngelusNielson But it's not bad sportsmanship. The guy who got upset essentially got upset because one player held hidden information from the rest, which was absolutely in that player's rights. The upset person's argument can't be "I would have played differently if I had known your hidden information" because he had no right to that information. You're under no obligation to telegraph what you're going to do on your turn. You're under no obligation to hold to what you said you were going to do during previous turns. If you're gonna politick be explicit about the deals you want to make. "I will take care of this if no one tries to win for a turn cycle". Don't just take "I can't win next turn" at face value.
Before talking about spoilers for a new set it might be a good idea to brush up on the already spoiled cards. T-45 isn't a banger but when your commander gives u energy for casting an artifact it can play a role, same with not knowing what the rad counters were even though they showed up in video in the edit
Also junk tokens, the best artifact tokens yet with treasures...
Yeah I agree I got really confused when they were talking about infect lol
You guys did Preston dirty , Hes a pretty huge meme from fallout 4 for always asking you to aid another settlement .
I finally got the willpower to beat FO4 a while ago and I never spoke to him, only annoyance lies down that path. Is a bit of a wasted slow considering how many iconic characters didn't get a card IMO.
At least the flavor was on point. I guess he could have some legs if you are enchanting your own lands with like utopia sprawl effects.
I don't think any of us have played Fallout 4 :(
Preston Garvey is from Fallout 4. He's one of the first NPCs you encounter, and he's the quest-giver for the Minutemen faction - who are all about building and building up settlements. This showcases a gameplay feature - settlement construction, where the main PC organizes entire communities, setting up fields of crops, water purifiers, vendors, and designing their homes - a touch of The Sims in the post apocalypse I guess. (and doing this does get you raw resources that are useful; e.g. Purified Water is a basic health item, and worth money, so producing X every Y time period allows you to heal up between combats and get extra money just for visiting your settlements). So 100% flavour win for him to be all about building up settlements and then winning the game through the resources generated by these seemingly humble settlements of just a handful of random people - that's how Minutemen playthroughs end, with the common people united to take control of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts from initially more powerful factions. He's also memetically annoying, because the quests he gives are procedurally generated so it gets a little repetitive... oh look, a repetitive ability that makes settlements. :D
I’m personally excited for this card cause it gives me a pretty nice land auras commander
Worth noting that the next set after Fallout, Thunder Junction will include a Naya lands deck as one of the 4 precons.
mtg players discover they are, in fact, playing a card game with hidden information and bluffing
I bet no one who was so salty ever bluffed before too right 🤭
Okay but other card games with don't players lie like mtg players do.
They also don't have 4 players in a "competitive" pod.@@MakeVarahHappen
Nothing you say is ever a bluff. Your actions are a bluff. A bluff is when you take a risk using in-game mechanics to try and convince your opponent to think the hidden information they don't have is something that it isn't. i.e, holding a card in hand and 2 blue mana up every round is a bluff (if you don't have the counterspell). Proclaiming you have the counterspell is not a bluff.
A bluff relies on your opponent misinterpreting the facts. It's an ACTION that takes place solely with in-game mechanics. No communication whatsoever. If you need to say something to "bluff", you didn't bluff, you're just stupid and have no idea what you're doing.
Here's a pointed example, because MtG players tend to be pretty low on brain cells. If I'm attacking you with a single 2/2 while you have a 4/5, you decide to block precisely by whether you think I'm bluffing the kill on your big creature. That's a bluff. Nobody said a damn thing. The game state made all of these details apparent.
@@MakeVarahHappen Can I interest you in a game of Poker? Or Bridge? Or Pokemon? Or YuGiOh? Or literally any card game with hidden information and therefore bluffing?
from my knowledge of cedh, unlike other competitive formats, the fact that there are multiple people means there IS going to be some amount of social strategy. Obviously you are always aiming for a personal win (ie. you're not on a team), but staying in your own lane is not necessarily the best strategy, and I think that social aspect of cedh makes the lying situation in some ways different than just lying/rules lawyering in a 1v1 format, as in those formats you can just ignore the opponent 99 times out of 100. That being said... I think lying in an attempt to get a win is perfectly legal and fine to do. The goal of cedh is to win, and if lying/misinforming an opponent helps you towards that goal, so be it. I see it as the same thing as passing priority on a spell that should be countered when you have a counterspell in hand, even saying "i don't have anything for that" even if you do, in order to hold onto that spell to protect your own win. Sure, you lied, but it was in order to get the win, which is the end goal. If people get upset that you lied, they are also fully free and valid to be so, thus is the power of free speech. Long story short i think lying in part of the game, and in a competitive tournament, you've gotta take what your opponents say with a grain of salt.
"i HAVE played falled-out" he said, convincingly
lmaoo
Here's what Radiation/Rad Counters do for anyone watching and curious. Source is from the MTG wiki
Radiation means that at the beginning of the precombat main phase, a player must mill a card for each rad counter they have. For each nonland card milled this way they lose 1 life and remove a rad counter. A rad counter is a counter that, unlike most other counters, is placed on players rather than objects.
For the CEDH tournament, do we even know if he was lying? Like at the last Commander Night event at my LGS we all knew who was winning, next player had an infinite combo set up to win, I was just able to counter his commander the previous turn to stop it (I impulse drew the pyroblast with Prosper during the previous turn end step and he didn't have the colors to recast or the mana to pay tax) and I was able to impulse draw probably the one card in my deck that let me win on that turn. I'm not going to win can turn into I will win right now with the right top deck
Based on what you described, that situation on cEDH tournament sounds more like bluffing and that is legit tactic if you are playing to win.
Nothing you say is ever a bluff. Your actions are a bluff. A lie is when you say something that's just not true. A bluff is where you make a correct play for a hand you don't have. If we're playing texas hold'em, lets say the flop is 9 10 Q, I've got 2 4 in the hole, and I give a big raise, at that point I'm bluffing the inside straight. My actions are scaring people into reacting to a hand of cards that I literally don't have. I'm not telling them anything. They're interpreting the information everyone has incorrectly. However, if I'm instead simply calling every round while loudly proclaiming to have the inside straight, that's not a bluff, it's just a lie. Well, it's also definitely a violation of the rules of the game at any respectable establishment, and most home games as well, but that's beside the point. Bluffs are risks taken for the chance at a better outcome than would otherwise occur, all done with in-game mechanics. Lies are attempts to use out-of-game functions to get an unfair advantage in-game at no risk. It's cheating. It's not that different from pulling out a gun and shooting your opponent to claim a "victory". You couldn't win at the game so you tried to feel like you're not a loser by getting outside help.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 unlike poker they allow politicking isn't it? so unless you are going to make specific rule that is going to punish "lies" then it is a fair game.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 If an opponent tells you "I'm going to win Next turn" and you lose because you player according to a piece of information disclosed by a person whose only purpose is to see you lose, you have only yourself to blame 😂.
@@KPX01 "It's not explicitly stated that this isn't ok, therefore it's ok" has never at any point been a valid argument, for any game, ever. A rather heavy-handed example, there's no rule that says you're not allowed to physically harm opposing players to get your way, therefore by the exact logic you're using it's fair to do so.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 There's a rule that says you cannot physically harm an opponent. It's called the law.
I think Assassin's Creed will be the big wake up call for UB. Assassin's Creed is 10 years past its prime, isn't a pop-culture defining franchise like LotR and Marvel, and isn't a niche franchise with a passionate fanbase like Doctor Who and Warhammer. Add to the fact that it's being sold in the terrible epilogue boosters that we already know sell terribly, I think that AC may sell even worse than Aftermath. The only way it sells is if they purposefuly print some crazy busted modern staple on the level of The One Ring or Orcish Bowmasters.
I am actually looking forward to Assassin's Creed! Lobes the first few games and also I need new Knights for Syr Gwyn!!!
Lying and bluffing has to be fine. You can't have a game where it's impolite to win.
Ikr what are they even talking about. 😂 It's a competition and there's money on the line. It's not kitchen EDH where "everybody needs to have fun". I don't know how you can enter a tournament and then expect your opponents to always be truthful. The only thing you need to expect is that they follow the rules of the tournament.
"Is it worth it winning a tournament in exchange of having a bad boy reputation?" Are we in elementary school? What's happening, are edh players ok? 😂 Sounds like they've been coddled too long and forgot what the real world is like.
It's funny because lying in almost any other card game lying is a game loss.
@hammernnaila7031 Depends what you lie about. You are obligated to maintain a clear board state and you can't lie about known information. I don't know what other card games you're talking about but I'd be suprised if you weren't allowed to bluff. That's a major part of even games like Uno, you constantly bluff about what you have and don't have in hand. It's about mind games.
@@vulcanh254 The specific statement of 'I cannot kill you' would be grounds for a game loss in almost every major TCG. Yu-Gi-Oh, F&B, any card game that has interaction on your opponents turn lying is exactly against the rules except in Magic for some reason. Rules Lawyering is also grounds for a warning.
@@hammernnaila7031 So to be clear I don't know the literal context of the lie in question. I'm just going off by what Seth, Richard and Crim are saying. They gave multiple examples from telling your opponent that "you're not going to wrath next turn", "don't worry I don't have a counterspell", to pretending you don't have Settle the Wreckage in hand. Those are obviously bluffs. So that makes the topic confusing because now we're saying simple bluffs like that are too mean and shouldn't be allowed in tournaments, which obviously doesn't make any sense.
So the full context would've been helpful to have. If you say "don't worry I can't combo next turn" and then you combo next turn, that's ok. BUT if you pretend that your enchantment in play isn't going to make you win on your next upkeep when it will, then that's misrepresenting the board state and lying about known information.
I'm confused as to why people are mixing both of those things as if they're the same thing though.
Lie? No. Mislead. Bluff. In game play. Part of the game
I think with the CEDH thing, the guy who "Lied" (It's a harsh term though, isn't it?) was asked if he was going to win on his turn and said no, which caused the other player to become an unwilling "kingmaker," which is a big stigma in the CEDH community because a lot of CEDH players left the Commander community because they didn't like the political aspects of the games. So instead of being accused of being a kingmaker, he accuses the other player of being a liar. That's what I'm reading from the situation, anyway.
Preston Garvey is great and I think his card is great too. The fallout set seems to be crafted with lots of love so far.
Personally I don't think CEDH players should be politicking at all, considering how disadvantageous it is. The only communication I'd want in a CEDH game, especially if it's a paid event, is only when players announce their plays or have responses. If players wanna politic, they should just play normal Commander.
@@TastySnackies Why? How did you decide on this?
@@TastySnackies If politics are helping you to win the game, then you're being at your most competitive when you are the successful politician. You cannot purge the multiplayer effect from the multiplayer game.
CEDH players LOVE politicking. People constantly fawn over people like ComedIan for it
Hey gang! to the topic question: no i dont think lying is against the rules nor is it even really in bad sportsmanship of the game. Crim made a good point that we often are doing everything in our power to fake out the opponent. We politic in EDH, which is what this sounds like they did, we leave mana open to bluff the counter or protection spell when really we have nothing. I even will, to Crims point, on Arena if i really want the oppenent to swing on my 'open board' so i can Settle the Wreckage their entire team and punish their greedy 26 point attack when they could've killed me me with one creature by sending them the "Good Game" to fake out that i'm defenseless. If players are not wary of subterfuge in a game that is resource intensive, complex in timing and prone to disruptive plays like counterpulls and hand attack, then they have their own player skill to complain about. its exactly why we teach newer players to cast their spells in the 2nd Mainphase, so we can bluff in the attack or have reacts up. thats basic playership. Also ESPECIALLY in Commander, game states change at every second. What may have been a board state I have no interest in interacting with mmay turn into a prime need for a board wipe in the single once around the table. Thye may had no intention of winning that turn but drew the nut card, or they foudn themselves in a board state that needed them to win now or they were going to throw the game. and in a CEDH tournament you cant expect someone to throw a match because of good manners or poltiics. PS Im the one that Settled Seth 3 times in a single match in Viewer battles a few years ago, and I let Seth walk into those each time because i NEEDED him to, I had a slow hand i needed time to get set up.
crims laugh when richard called out his commander play had me rolling
It's a shame the reserve list is going to stop them from making the Infinity Stones altered art/named Moxes. Now THAT would make it competitive with the LOTR set.
If they really wanted to, they could. They don't even have to break the RL to do it. People put way too much faith in that RL. As soon as they can milk every last drop from Magic and just kill it off and sell it, they will reprint the RL.
Until then, it's not really hard for them to make exact copies with different names.
Look man, Berserk or Dark Souls and and I'm sold.
To be completely fair to PIP, 40K had some really non-cards as well. A load of bombs as well, but let's hope they've yet to show the best
Marvel’s Universes Beyond is going to be interesting to watch. The comics, movies, and shows are not anywhere near where they were for popularity even just 2-3 years ago. I worry that they may have waited too long to get the full impact.
That frankly happens a lot. For adaptations or all the games copying the top video games or movies from the previous year.
For the universes beyond, I'm almost certain that we will have revisits to old universes beyond like richard mentioned, which will be interesting to see.
In general, I feel like lying about the rules, about public information, or to a tournament official is bad, but for the most part lying to your opponent about private information is okay.
That being said, you generally wait to tone it down in a more casual setting in the same way that I might let my opponent know about niche rules interactions (you might want to crack your fetch before pithing needle resolves, etc) before they happen in a casual setting or in the same way I might let them not miss triggers or take back lesser misplays.
If you are a player in a tournament, just remember that your opponent isn't required to tell you the truth, so take what they say with a grain of salt. "I don't have an answer" might mean "I don't see that as a threat to me". Talk is cheap.
Seth: is this a step in that direction?
Yes, it is definitely *a* step in that direction. It is not *all of* the steps in that direction. It's a sliding scale with all Magic IP on one end and all UB IP on the other. I don't think we'll ever be completely on one end of the scale again but I expect wizards to adjust that slider as they feel necessary.
Lying in cedh is exactly the same as lying in commander. It's legal, you can do it, and nothing is stopping you from using it to win a game. The reason you don't do it is because doing it once means you now have an untrustworthy reputation that follows you into future games and makes deal making more difficult for you. Is one victory worth making all politics more difficult or down right impossible in your future games?
I agree with Richard there are some really good basic lands out there. I especially love all various Innistrad basic lands.
Gonna put this out there that Brandon Sanderson, a prolific author, is a HUGE MTG fan, and has a whole universe of potential characters. And his fans are zealots for nerd stuff. Theres even a world where a bunch of Gods exist that all are based on different colors. Would be so easy and cool.
Sanderson also already got burned once on a deal with wotc who knows if he'd want to try again
It's funny that Richard brings up a comparison to rules lawyering which is, in fact, illegal in most other card games' tournament play.
Proof?
Had an idea for the perfect IP for universes beyond: Dark Tower. It's literally about crossing different planes of reality, enough story and characters to build a full set
I do not untap with my hand; he who untaps with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I untap with my eye.
I do not draw for turn with my hand; he who draws for turn with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I draw for turn with my mind.
I do not swing for lethal with my creature; he who swings for lethal with his creature has forgotten the face of his father.
I swing for lethal with my heart.
Hasbro going to milk magic then go bankrupt
I was playing a game of five player commander with my friends, and one player was playing a deck where he steals everything from other players and uses them against us. I had just had my commander stolen and I couldn't resummon the commander. I couldn't kill it either. I decided to swing everything at my other friend who was wide open so i could get some lifegain and card draw with my other creatures. That friend then told me before I was finished declairing attackers that he had a board wipe in his hand and would use it next turn if i let him live. He was the very next person to go, so this sounded like a good deal to me. Everyones things, including his, that were stolen would be put back in the grave. I shook his hand on it and told him that it would be us in the end to battle it out, and we formed an alliance. I played my aura shards and passed turn.
The next turn that ally of mine played a spell to steal my aura shards and then played a bunch of creatures to kill all my enchantments, then passed turn. That next players turn he stole the aura shards and that other guys commander and killed him. He then went on to play creatures and destroy all enchantments and artifacts on the board while keeping me alive with one health. Destroying or stealing every single thing i played. It was awful, and i felt so betrayed, but it was perfectly legal to screw me over, and he paid the consequences for that play.
And in doing so, he completely destroyed any future equity he had with you, assuring you'd never trust him in the game again. Short term gain, long term loss.
That's a cool story of friendship and betrayal but I'm trying to understand how it relates to a tournament setting. Why should I care if you never trust me again? I just crushed you in a tournament and got my prize. I don't care if you don't trust me anymore because you're not supposed to trust your opponent anyway. Again, in a tournament. That's not supposed to be a thing to begin with.
Your story is about a casual game with friends so it's different. It seems obvious to me that you should forget everything you think you know about EDH the moment you enter a tournament. 😅
The only things you can't lie about are state based actions(draw, upkeep, cast, cards in hand), everything else is fair game("i'll counter if you play X", "i have 5 islands in my hand", "i haven't combo'd yet").
In regards to the UB story at the beginning: Disney would have to axe Lorcana before they could license to WotC for a Disney UB. Ravensberger owns the card printing license for Disney and has been doing amazing for them. It is unlikely they would drop them for one small set over the steady hype-based income of Lorcana.
Seth's take on cheating is absolutely wild here. He essentially says, "If my opponent in a tournament was playing proxies, I wouldn't care. If I knew their deck was 59 cards and not 60, I wouldn't care. I would never call out blatant cheating, because it would somehow label me as a scumbag player for the next 20 years." Seth, if your opponent is cheating, how are you the scumbag for calling them out? They are the scumbag for going against the rules to create an unfair advantage.
I think maybe the scumbag part is immediately rushing to a judge to get someone disqualified rather than giving them a chance to fix the issue. Just a simple "hey, I only counted 59 cards in your deck. are you missing a card?" before running off to the judge would give them a chance to fix the issue before it became serious. Maybe they did try to cut a card illegally or maybe it was an honest mistake and one got stuck in the deck box - you have zero information on how it happened. Either way, you're not in the wrong for calling a judge because they're down a card, but how you handle the situation shows what kind of person you are.
@@enoesiw You said it yourself there, you have zero information. Maybe this player always deliberately keeps 1 card in their deck box to play it off as an honest mistake if they get called out on it. In your example, what are you supposed to do about proxies? Ask them if their card is fake, and if they say no, just trust them? Judges are at tournaments to make sure that the game is being played correctly, and if it is not, then it is up to the judge to decide how to fix it and what kind of penalty should be given. They also keep records of game/match losses due to judge calls, so they can see patterns in players. If a player gets a judge called on them once for 59 cards and it turns out the last card is in the box, worst thing that will happen is a game loss. If that same player has the same call multiple times with the same result, now we're talking deliberate cheating with potential bans from competitive play. And isn't that what we want? To make this community better by weeding out the people who would take advantage of others?
When you were reading down the biggest franchises I had a theory come to mind. I bet MetaZoo wanted a Hail Mary so they googled “biggest franchises”, saw that the top two already had TCGs, then picked the next biggest one (Hello Kitty) and thought it would be as close to popularity as pokemon or Disney 😂
WOTC: "It's Morbin' Time."
My hot takes on UB:
LotR and D&D did it right with adding regular draft with the sets vs just the collector boosters.
The UB sets could replace the masters/ horizons/ legends sets and allow them into modern.
If there is a Star Wars UB, buy every copy of Lin-Sivvi you can get your hands on (not financial advice)
I know Final Fantasy isn’t exactly Lotr but I feel like it’s a fairly deep well with pretty diehard fans but not an exact 1/1 ring type of thing that could be used given 16+ games don’t really intertwine but have plenty of continued references so there’s plenty you could serialize but nothing 2million dollars worthy. But I agree you can only force so much till you’re at the jiffy lube secret lairs. I have a buddy I play with whose reputation is the guy who goes back on a deal immediately so don’t bother making one. Either make them have it or get bluffed it’s gonna happen and scummy or not the win is the win when it matters.
Preston is just overcosted Naya Jorn. Instead of snow theme you run constellation, boom there’s the deck.
Regarding UB Disney - there was a leak a while back that a Disney princess SL was in the works, and I THINK (but I'm not sure) that it was leaked by the same person that leaked some other things that have happened, like Quintorius becoming a PW and a cowboy/western set. So that could be in the pipeline, but it seems somewhat unlikely at this point given Lorcana (these leaks happened before Lorcana was announced IIRC).
Honestly an Avatar Universes Beyond would do well. They already have color divisions and could flavor well in the MTG Universe.
Another one that might be a stretch would be Fate series which would allow the entry of iconic heroes and their flavors into MTG. I would love a Gilgamesh or Arturia Pendragon card.
Ugh, a 5 second google search would have told them what Junk and Rads were and that it's been know for six months! Never change!
We know they're making multiple Marvel sets, and there's enough material for near-infinite sets. I think 2 UB sets a year means one Marvel and one non-Marvel. We also know one of the UB sets is taking the place of a Magic-IP set, so I think at least one of the UB sets will probably be Standard legal, and I'd put my money on that being the Marvel set. They may also make straight-to-Modern(/Pioneer?) Marvel sets, but I think they want to funnel the new players through Standard rather than throwing them into more powerful non-rotating formats. To Crim's point about needing to be Modern legal to push power level, they can still print above-Standard-power level cards in Commander products for a Standard legal set.
22:17 from is right. Have you seen the hype for the anime cards and the new anthropomorphic set?
also to be fair, LOTR had their own card game waaaaaay back in the late 90s
I love this lair drop, after hating on many of them, but... I mean "Hate has no place here".
Technically nothing illegal about lying, but cEDH is that anomaly where you're playing to win but also in a social interaction meta. Usually that table discussion is about stopping someone else's win. So flat out lying there is super scummy, misrepresenting in a way that others can't threat assess properly. I think spotlighting that as a reputation of that person for future games is the best you can do.
I would say that no lying is very much not okey in a tournament, but people are either directly or indirectly able to benefit from both lying and cheating in MTG tournaments.
Why is it not ok?
The magic tournament rules prohibit lying to opponents about public information. They also prohibit lying to a tournament official about any information. They do not prohibit lying to an opponent about private information.
I would also argue against lying being bad sportsmanship in all games since plenty use it as a core mechanic (Coup, BS, Among Us).
We could not agree more with your UB debate! We have already mocked up Dragonball and Harry Potter sets on our channel. We think Anime is a quick win!
In here commander tournaments we don't even do politics. We just play like normal tournaments.
Careful what you wish for Crim, Sage of Lat-Nam somehow got upshifted from common in Antiquities to a Rare in 8th Edition. To this day no one knows why.
Universes Beyond in Standard would be bad news bears.
I think Indestructible still matters in 2024 (Avacyn is still $40!) even when Farewell and Sunfall exist, but yeah, that card's pretty rough, lol. I'm wondering if maybe they're focusing more on nailing the experience of playing the four decks together, board game style, as an experience for Fallout fans, rather than on how playable the cards are in the broader metagame... But they do also softball previews a bit to start, so we'll probably see a handful of busted cards by the time we have the full lists (and these typically have reprints, too
Outside of the cards being playable or not, the art direction for the set seems good so far. Some of the UB stuff just hasn't "looked" like Magic art (this happens most often with the ones featuring actors), and that's made it more jarring, but so far the Fallout cards seem to fit in fairly well
Hold up, Spongebob could be GOATED! Are you kidding me? With the same level of passion as lotr appllied?
They'd be fools to not do more insane UB sets... however they're gonna burn through the good options for those within 5 years. They can do smaller releases like 4 commander decks or secret lair things or w/e for tons of stuff but for full premium sets??? there's not enough options to do this for a decade if they're doing 2+ per year.
Did Richard just say modern was a brewers paradise? Are you joking?
The more booster options there are, the more dissapointed you will be with your purchase. Its easier to be satisfied with fewer options.
Do we have the context of whether or not is was true they could not win prior to drawing for turn and suddenly that card allowed them to win the game?
100% fair game. Its a card game of concealed information just like poker.
For universes Beyond sets where you are unfamiliar with the IP, maybe you can collab with a TH-cam involved with that IP, or someone else in the MTG scene that can help with the lore and stuff, might make it make more sense!
The only to be honest in EDH is being able to politic. It is incentivized through gameplay, not social contract. Once you lie, you lose a viable game action because the other players know you will lie. it's the same reasoning for honoring deals. It's not a matter of social contract, it's a matter of game strategy.
great list, richard.
great, great times ahead.
In ALL games with social element your reputation is a resource.
If you believe lying to win at the cost of reputation is the correct play then you go for it.
It's important to always ask Seth's question of "is it worth it in the long run?". The bigger the price the more worth this is. You can prob have 2 big lies before no one trusts you anymore. Also lies work only when ppl believe them in the first place, if no one believes then lies are just jokes as they lose their primary function. In everyone lies meta everyone plays around the correct decisions, in no one lies meta you can exploit ppl lacking of critical information by making one sided deals.
53:00 just a reminder that sultai ultimatum is 7 mana, 7 mana needs to do WORK nowadays
43:26 I dunno. Good sportsmanship is pretty important in all other professional sports. Things that aren’t against the rules specifically are still looked down on or can even result in penalties and fines. Isn’t being to mean in football a thing? I’m not saying it has to go that far but just because you can’t doesn’t mean you should.
It really depends though. What is our isn't good sportsmanship depends a lot in the game. Games like Coup, BS, Among Us and Secret Hitler all have lying as core mechanics so it would be hard to argue that it universally must be bad sportsmanship.
In addition, in the magic tournament rules, there is a section dedicated to the rules around player communication (4.1). In that section, there is a rule stating you may not misrepresent free, derived or status information (which make up all public information) incorrectly. There is also a rule saying that players must answer all questions that a judge asks them completely and honestly regardless of the type of information. There is no rule restricting communication about private information to your opponent.
Given that, I find it hard to believe that the absence is an accident or unintentional loophole. If they wanted to make lying to your opponent in general against the rules they would have done so in that section.
@@seandun7083 those games are very different because lying is literally the core mechanic that makes those games work.
Again, just because something isn’t against the rules doesn’t mean it isn’t unsportsmanlike. There’s a difference between being sneaky and tricky and lying. It’s easy to just say nothing 🤷♀️
How is lying in magic not ok? As long as you're not lying about how a rule works or like, what a card in a foreign language does etc
Question, did the player draw the winning card on his draw step?
A few words about Crim & Richard thinking Final Fantasy won't smash Lord of the Rings in terms of popularity: Amano Final Fantasy 7 chase-cards ( Cloud, Sephiroth, Aerith, etc..). I think Marvel is obviously bigger than all of them, but I think it's going to be a lot closer between Final Fantasy & Lord of the Rings than Crim or Richard are thinking. I think the only potential problem is that the style of Final Fantasy could clash with Magic depending on what they take from the games/worlds built, as Lord of the Rings setting is very old-Magic-like. However, the Japanese planeswalkers were really popular in War, some still commanding ridiculous prices, and I will be entirely shocked if Final Fantasy doesn't use that same opportunity & just end up crushing Lord of the Rings because of it.
I think the issue with Final Fantasy is that outside FF7, none of it is particularly memorable other than the meme stuff like chocobo’s, ridiculously large swords, limit break summons, some sort of flying ship, every game had a Cid etc.
@@Dragon_Fyre You literally just ran off an entire list of things after saying it's not memorable. Lol. Do you think the average person knows much about Lord of the Rings outside of the memes? God no. They have the same general cursory knowledge about the franchise.
7:57 you and I need to fight right now! FF is going to be amazing. But they do have the ability to mess it up.
Thought experiment: Player A has two possible routes to take on their turn. One route gives up the game to Player B but advances their boardState, one doesn’t. Player A asks Player B if they can win the game next turn. Does Player B have to tell the truth? Is it bad form if he ‘lies’ and says he cannot win?
This highlights the absurdity of the entire drama. It’s operating from the standpoint that we as players are robots with no effect on the game. Piloting a deck, and navigating the table, the other players is a critical aspect of the game. Just as much as the deck itself, and double so in a multiplayer format like commander. Each and ever player makes smaller less dramatic reads on opponents plays at every point of the game. There are little bluffs and reveals every turn.
A cash tournament should be treated like a poker tournament. It’s a competition. Each player has agreed to compete to win.
If someone bluffs me on a casual table maybe I’ll think their a jerk but if we are in a tournament that’s a sign of a good player and I’d make my hat off to the bluff.
Edit: can you imagine Sportscenter calling Michael Jordan a cheater for getting into his opponents heads mentally 😂
i think people confuse lying and bluffing way too much. it's not the same.
And none are against the rules in MTG.
19:50 man, now I want a DBZ and inyuyahsa secret lair now. Tekken did well I want my goku commander deck with 7 dragonball fetch lands.
What if it's gonna be instead of the remastered sets we get the universes beyond? Thought?
Crim looks so zooted when he isn't talking, lol.
About the lair drop.... I am pretty sure this will be one of the best selling ones of all.
To make it not feel scummy in some way they should put all profits of it to charity.
Like that it feels like, we know this is gonna sell very well and let's cash in and have some people think we are good people.... Don't know on the other hand I expected the price of it beeing like 60 bucks.... Like they did in the past. We do 50% but actually you are just paying 50% more for it.
But I do love the art for inkshield and the command tower. The teferis pro just looks like it was some leftover art and the sol ring looks like leftover from lotr... But Stil...
Yeah gonna have to see how the pricing in Europe is. Usually our secret lairs are more expensive than in America. 🙄
About the percentage to charity. Other companies that want to have a good look on them or want to actually do something good do that to and wizards is big enough to pay 7 artists and do that if they would really want to do something good. 🤔
But that could be hasbro sitting in there back aswell.... Who knows. The lair looks good so far and has some beautiful pieces in it and definitely will make people remember him.
If they ever do a Souls UB set I will drop so much fucking money on that set!!!
Seth is way off base on the lying in cEDH thing being poor form. There is an entire colour pairing literally top to bottom built on deceit and deception, and it's a very fun game style. However, he is bang on target about it being something that people assign to you as a personality trait. It's hard to escape the label of "blue player", you see discrimination against it everywhere in the community.
Final Fantasy is obviously not on the level of LotR / Marvel but it is still a hugely popular IP with a hardcore dedicated fanbase that loves to spend money. The FF set will do gangbusters.
To your thoughts on cEDH drama, I come from a board gaming background and plenty of games have room for politics, table talk, etc. and are usually 4+ players in a game. I've been to tournaments where plaques have been the prize (though no cash prizes) but it's generally accepted that persuading other players to take actions in games where there is a political and interactive factor is just part of the game, and the players have learned that you just need to have a thick skin, and should take targeted attacks against you not as an offense, but as a sign of respect for the strength of your position, playstyle, or skill, and move on. My thoughts is that cEDH/EDH players really need to adopt this outlook on games. Yeah, it's a casual game, that doesn't mean there isn't going to be a winner, and that the fun of the game can't be the pursuit of victory. You do your best to win and if you lose, you try again for the next one. Personally I find it shocking that people just don't get this simple concept: it's okay to win, and it's okay to lose, and sometimes being the "little guy" in a pod can let you win, because nobody targets you and then your explosive combo goes off.
I would buy a box of Black Clover MTG cards or a Diablo set as both are perfectly fitted into MTG.
Damn, I did not think of Diablo! That would absolutely bang. I am going to mockup that as a set for sure.
15:12 WAITAMINUT!! Steamboat Willie is public domain!! WotC should just PRINT a Steamboat Willie card, Disney can’t stop ‘em! That might hurt the chances of future Disney crossovers, tho.
t-45 power armor. put it on a vigilance creature
cEDH opponents: Why did you believe the words of someone trying to win a competitive tournament? What incentive or obligation did you have to believe the words of someone trying to win a competitive tournament? You allowed it to happen. You allowed to happen. You. Allowed it to happen.
1. Football (most popular sport) on its highest tournament level is literally won and lost on players faking falls...
2. If I hear Sett say Shopify 1 more time, I'll see future videos soundless.
I feel people keep glossing over the fact that Lord of the Rings did well hugely influenced by the lottery card. If it didn't have the One Ring 1 of 1, would it be the best selling set? I don't think so.
I'm here for Universes Beyond: Three's Company. :P
I mean if they use a proxy it doesn’t affect anything gameplay wise they can still beat you with that card just can’t afford it. I guess u could say they could potentially cut to it if it’s not similar enough quality but otherwise it does feel kinda scummy to call out a proxy.
20:15 It’s all “Deckmaster.”
Man I just don't get lying conversations. I play on a pretty simple bar of just not revealing any information (this is why I am not the biggest fan of online simulators tbh). Someone asks me if I'm holding a counterspell? I'm not gonna answer that. I'm not gonna freely say "oh I don't have a removal spell" because that for one is just fucking stupid, and for two who are you expecting to get with that? New players? Players you could probably already beat?
Just by not revealing any information, you get to do all the call bluffs everyone likes. Holding up two blue mana doesn't communicate I have anything, it merely communicates I have the possibility, and I want players to worry about that. Leave your opponent the option to make mistakes. I genuinely don't believe any of the "oh lying is part of the game" people really do it ever and I don't believe they have a good success rate with it either. If I felt the need to say deliberately incorrect information, I probably need to build a better deck or just get better at the actual playing of the card game lmao.
If they are going to do anime UB they should due volumes and have 3 anime’s per set
Like anime UB vol 1 could be DBS, Bleach and Black clover
Vol 2 could be One piece, sailor moon and Naruto
Deception is part of the game. Angle Shooting is eye rolling af. Outright lying is dishonest. Ect. Ect.
WOTC could probably get a deal with Shonen Jump and bundle the best of their catalogue
Nothing will ever touch LOTR as an MTG crossover set; LOTR (the books) are of the foundations of fantasy media and the Peter Jackson movies were massive for people that are 35-50 now.
lying and therefore bluffing is not cheating... they are two completely different things... so bluffing is not a bad thing in strategy games, in fact it is part of the strategy
This isnt a rules debate its a sportsmanship debate. Theres plenty of things that are valid by the rules in sports and other games but frowned upon. Direct lying like that would be a bad sportsmanship but not the end of the world. No worse than scoring on a victory formation in football.
I like how they talk about Pokemon and Disney having their own card games....so does Final Fantasy.
Not knowing what Rad counters do then putting them on the screen LOL
Bluffing and lying aren't the same, bluffing does not require lying at all. It isn't that hard to keep things ambiguous and uncertain in your statements. Those that lack the capacity to bluff without spouting straight up lies are the ones trying to confound the two terms.
I think we are finally seeing WotC/Hasbro cresting the wave of the last 3-4 years of squeezing the MTG brand super hard. I think we've hit peak saturation of MTG profits, and once WotC starts decreasing in revenue, Hasbro is screwed.
Please more cEDH content. More cEDH in the mainstream please.
I am of the opinion that lying is OK in Magic.