It's a pretty decent move actually. The con ? It's on Ganondorf. It's funny how most of its aerials are pretty damn good, but they are attached on a character with one of the shittiest air physics in the game 😢
@@AnActualEgg1 It's kind of ironic that Ultimate Ganondorf ended up as the worst, when the design he has is based on his Ocarina of Time appearance, which once appeared in Smash Melee, back when Bowser was meant to be bad.
The nerf to flame choke was actually part of a more general change to all suicide moves. Off the top of my head I know chrom also got it and I’m assuming a bunch of other characters did too.
Nope. Only Chrom and Ganondorf. Since Chrom in a last stock scenario could just... Nair, nair, fair, up-b, win. Ganondorf had Flame Choke killing first carried over from Smash 4. Which they decided was a necessary nerf I guess.
@@KaiAbito-vy2gg Bowser was never able to kill first off of Bowsercide. Even when it was first a command grab to use offstage. Ganondorf was the ONLY one to get the command grab nerf.
The problem with this is Nintendo. They don’t have seasons or do major balance changes with them being in the actual focus. Most of the time it’s just 1 or 2 changes that are there just because the DLCs got released. Also, after the last DLC gets released there are no more balance patches. Practically all other fighting games get supported for years after their last DLC characters. This doesn’t happen with smash and it’s extremely easy to see how a game can degenerate after some time the techs get figured out… You have brawl meta knight, smash 4 bayo and ultimate’s Steve (and sonic) It’s a shame that what should be the greatest celebration of video games history has such poor maintenance
Ganondorf being the worst character in Ultimate is such a slap in the face because this is THE Smash game where being slow isn't a death sentence. Pyra is slow and has dogshit airspeed and some really unsafe moves, but she is still viable. Kazuya is the slowest shoto and in-spite of his ToD capabilities he has glaring neutral weaknesses and punish windows, but he is still viable. R.O.B's on-stage mobility is ass and he is one of the most easily combo'd characters of the cast, but he's still viable. Meanwhile characters like Meta Knight, Bowser Jr, and Pichu have speed and mobility that is usually typical of Top Tiers but their viability is always called into question. This is *THE* game where Ganondorf should have been at his best and he simply isn't. I don't know how much more doomed this character is destined to be.
You also blatantly chose to ignore the fact that Pyra is DIRECTLY attached to Mythra, so any complaints of mobility are made moot. Kazuya has Super Armour on a bunch of moves ontop of having Rage Drive Comeback that already makes him more dangerous. R.O.B's on stage mobility is anything but bad.
1) Pyra is attached to Mythra, meaning she's only used when you need to close stocks which she's good at. 2) I'm sure R.O.B's movility is average, slightly worse than Mario and around the same level as Ken. 3) Steve is the best character and he's very slow, but it is because he has absurd boxing powers, the hability of making terrain at will and just breaking preestablished rules of smash. 4) Just like in Brawl, Snake is a very good character despite its lack of speed due to its good frame data on get-off me moves and absurd damage-racking potential. Ganondorf just has nothing going for, being painfully slow, easy to hit, bad recovery that used to be worse btw, moves that are incredibly redundant (He doesn't need so many kill moves), no way to beat disjoints despite an above average range, no Out of Shield game, awful grab game and tons of moves that only work if you lack knowledge of the matchup.
Ganondorf' strenght : - he hits hard Ganondorf' weaknesses : - No Disjoint - The worst recovery in the game (I will die on this hill, given if Ganondorf can actually come back on it LOL) - Terrible frame data, especially against shields, even though he is meant to break shields easily. - Non existent grab game (his back throw is negative on hit at low percent, also none of them kills) - No defensive options (Up B out of shield can miss on some characters up close) - Its Nair, the only "good" move it has, sometimes doesn't have enough hitstun on its first hit to confirm the 2nd. - No mobility It's funny because when we look at King K Rool, he has similar killing power, but unlike Ganondorf, ACTUALLY HAS TOOLS OTHER THAN BRUTE FORCE. He is the only super heavyweight to have projectiles. Can ACTUALLY recover, has actual aerials, Nair and F-Tilt have hyperarmor, albeit risky due to the durability, can be thrown out in a trade and wins the trade. He isn't even out of E tier, and yet he has SO MUCH MORE tools than Ganondorf.
Personally, as a Ganondorf player, I think it comes down to 2 things. 1. As mentioned, his moves are actually really good, but are hindered by his poor mobility. So as a result, his moves are often very satisfying to land. I mean they just have that impact and you just feel powerful while landing these moves. Sure, he gets thrown around like a ragdoll 90% of the match, but you only need a few hits in that other 10% to even it up. 2. Ganondorf being the worst character gives him that natural underdog hype (similar to good Little Macs or K. Rools). Since you actually have to outplay your opponent as a low tier such as Ganondorf, when you're kicking ass with the character, it just feels that much more fun / rewarding. However, he is a very polarizing character in terms of fun because of this. You're either having a blast as you KO opponents in just a few good hits, or you live an existence of pain, being rag-dolled / camped for 7 minutes straight.
There is one thing that ganondorf can do better than anyone else however: reads. If you can analyze your opponents attack patterns, boom all you need is one hit and you got your opponent in what I call “instinct mode” which commonly makes them choose one of a few “safer” options to escape, which can commonly be read. For instance, a Mewtwo teleport, or a simple roll.
The same is true with Rob nair, Steve up tilt, kazuya EWGF etc. Except these moves aren't punishable and don't require reads like ganon does. That's why he sucks.
fun game to play called flame choke guessing where you find an opponent who always chooses to roll and then guess which direction they will roll so you can instantly get them into another flame choke
Ganondorf rely solely on reads, while having moves that don't really reward you that much for reads ??? Sure they hit hard, but you'll only land 1-2 of them when you get an opening. Meanwhile every other superheavyweights at least get SOMETHING, on top of having generally better moves. Why would you use Ganondorf for its raw power when King K Rool and Bowser do that, but better and easier ? Why would you play neutral with Ganondorf when King K Rool and DeDeDe do it better ? The ONE thing he had in Sm4sh was its unga bunga strenght, but now that said strenght is much more available across the board, he isn't special anymore.
I'm pretty sure the side-b nerf was so you couldn't cheese single player Spirit matches out as easily, they did the same thing with most of the other suicide kill options like it He really needs a buff though lol
Fighting games need to quit the design of giving a ton of damage to a slow character and expecting it to work. If you look at other games, all viable combo food characters have other big strengths to compensate. Such as unique gimmicks or helpful movement options to close the gap. Zangief has green hand, Potemkin has hammer fall… Now movement is important for any fighting game, but even more for Smash. If you give four major weaknesses (combo food, slow AF, no long range options, horrible recovery) then it’s impossible to make him good by buffing his single strength (power). Ganon desperately needs a redesign not just because he’s a terrible representation of his canon self, but also because he’s forever destined to be bottom tier with that design.
Really, the cursed trio of big body, bad recovery, and no defense options is enough to end any character. Weight doesn't matter if you're dying faster than everyone else due to getting comboed then edgeguarded/being unable to recover. For being the heaviest character in the game, Bowser regularly dies earlier than tons of characters, because it doesn't actually matter that he needs to be at 160 to kill him off the side, if he just can't make it back at 120. Dedede is a good example of this being done well. Of all the heavies, Dedede is basically the only one that ever actually gets to enjoy the supposed survivability, because he can ACTUALLY RECOVER and force it to be an issue. All the other heavies just get gimped or edgeguarded at like 80. It's stupid to only put weight on characters with no ability to actually leverage it. Dedede is still heavily flawed in other areas defensively, but at the very least, Dedede usually isn't dying for a good while. It's baffling at how overbalanced these traits are. It's like, in Magic the Gathering, when the developers thought being Legendary or multicolored was a BUFF to a card, and so gave them downsides in addition to the more complex costs and conditions. I swear it feels like this is the case here. The devs think being heavy, slow, and big is a strength, so give it extra downsides, despite being big, heavy, and slow actually being a downside.
I fought major at a local once, and as a dedede main I always felt that I had to do a lot of heavy lifting for my character to win in a way that nobody else really needs to with their character. Major knew how to consistently beat my ledge trapping with the goddamn slap off of dark dive by game one. Major’s spine must be made of titanium the way he has to carry that poor character, good lord.
He has one of the cheapest braindead attacks, of course devs would refuse to properly buff him; just like Symmetra from Overwatch, she’s widely considered trash but has cheap kit that developers will always refuse to buff her. So in conclusion; he needs moveset upgrade, hopefully in the next game
Ganon shares a tier list perspective of Link and Zelda. Those two have never been high tier or even mid high tier. 3 pieces of the Triforce really are connected.
@@LinktheCommunistWaifuLink's not really that bad in smash ultimate, C+ is pretty respectable. Even Zelda's been pretty good occasionally in fan games like PM and Smash Flash 2, they just have to make her moveset work together better.
Ganondorf is like that one kid that peaked around high school. And then their life slowly got worse and worse until we see them as a shell of their former selves (seriously like nearly every ganon incarnation he’s always at the lowest tier ever except in melee)
Honestly I don’t even see why even keep Ganon in this game if they constantly make him bad and continue not to give him any assisting buffs, even after all the bad results he’s had. I mean there’s a multitude of moves Ganon can have based off his own games but they continue to disregard and disrespect the character even further. All I want to know is why keep making a mockery of him? What are the developers and Sakurai thinking 😂
I believe that the smash bros developers don’t give a shit about Legend of Zelda and the characters are only there out of popularity sakes , it’s clear when they did the bare minimum with Breath of the Wild Link
The problem with ganon is that his concept is really hard to make good and fun in a competitive enviroment, they want him to be a character that can kill you in very few interactions through incredibly powerful moves, but then if you make a character like that just the slightest but too strong he'd basically be the best character in the game, he'd basically be like an easier execition kazuya, so they make him reliant on reading the opponent to land good hits through his bad mobility and frame data, and the fact he inherently needs to read the opponent or rely on some kind of setup or advantage, means that if he ever is loosing he'll basically never win again, plus reads are by nature inconsistent, if the opponent ever figures out what you're up to, then you've already lost
ok I'm gonna get this off my chest WHY WOULD THEY MAKE SIDE B BOTH MASHABLE AND MAKE IT KILL YOU FIRST, WHY WHY DOES EVERY OTHER MOVE LIKE IT GET TO NOT BE MASHABLE BUT GANNON GETS GIMPED FOR NO REASON ok I'm done now
I wouldn't say he's the worst smash character in history, honestly the only MAJOR problems are his recovery and speed, its just that all the top tier/in the meta characters have him as a +3 at least, and he has no winning matchups, you're literally playing to lose if you play ganon because of how the game works/how he interacts with other characters
- Barely any range, his Nair being its safer move with average range - Horrendous defense, smaller characters can outright dodge your few out of shields options by doing nothing. - 2 useless moves; Volcano Kick, which replace what could've been an anti-air, and Warlock Punch, where its ONLY use case is on shield breaks. Especially terrible when you misinput them, it doesn't happen often, but when it does... - No combos, you get 1-2, at MOST, 3 hits in at very low percent, after that, you have to go for stray hits. - It's unga bunga strenght isn't unique anymore. Other superheavies may have _slightly_ less raw power per attack, but since their attacks are actually, you know, GOOD, they tend to land them way more often.
What led ganon to be considered better I think still holds true to him even if it doesn’t support him being in a higher tier placement. His hitboxes do a good job at covering space around him and he can definitely capitalize off of ledge planking to circumvent his large hurtbox which gives him something to do in the corner. Playing a bit more defensively also just lets ganon download his opponent better so he can scheme some callouts that’ll be necessary for later in the game to close distance and stocks. Ppl just realized he’s a 39 hour per week job so he’s getting paid for part time while just short of full time hours
Honestly never understood why they kept his worse Falcon moveset after melee, there is so much cool source material you can use to make him a good character(such as giving him a peach hover like in oot, electric projectiles, a teleport, his trident) they just really don't care about him for some reason.
All I know is that buffing Ganon is hard because when it comes to casual gameplay, Ganon stomps everyone, buff him too much and the whole ‘casual playing at a party’ aspect is skewed in his favor heavily, it’s the case for all the heavyweights
Important to note that at one point in time, little mac was also in E-, but recent tournament success from peanut and tarakatori encouraged people to respect him ever so slightly more, leaving ganon alone in E-.
I know I’m probably wrong but I really think that ganon is the worst character in brawl as well. I know it’s ivy then puff but I swear ganon is worse because you can’t win everything with up smash. Also he’s probably the worst in smash 4 as well.
I always thought ganon was the best character because he does beeg damage. Now that I think about it, I haven't touched the game in 3 years, that probably explains a lot.
I’ve been a Ganondorf main since the Smash Ultimate demo! I do think he is underrated and I find other characters worse than him like Dr.Mario and Little Mac. Also, I recognise your name and I’m pretty sure I fought your Ganondorf before with mine :)
I am sad Ganon is so bad since he meant a lot to me in Melee (I was supposed to main Jigglypuff but I wasn't very good at wall of pains, so I picked the easier Falcon), then he sucked in every Smash game since.
Something to note when comparing Ult Ganon to other bad smash characters. While he is worse than every other ultimate character, he’s more viable in Ult than Bowser is in Melee for example. In melee there’s more characters that are complete garbage, while Ult has very few characters that are really bad.
Sonic Doesn't have the smallest ledge hurtbox. I tested a bunch of moves on them both and found 1 that hits Sonic but not Ganon. If you're curious, it's Little Mac's up smash. -Yo'ster
My father mained gannon and lucario. He died before lucario got buffs. For him the struggle was real. I main the villager and mii sword w a few secondaries like ToonL, mii gunnr, and (brawler)the exeption) The MIDness is real but at least there better than gannon.
They nerfed flame chokes SD trade not because it was broken, but because it was dumb. They changed all the SD trades (mostly), not just Ganon’s, to work like this because it’s really unfun and stupid otherwise.
So this is coming from someone who has been a Ganon main for the past year now. Calling Ganon the worst character in the game is like saying a fish doesn't swim. Its just not true. Yes his recovery is somewhat exploitable. And yeah, his speed is subpar. But this character is top half of the roster if your mind games and conditioning are at their best. In response to the video creators comment about how he "just gets mashed out by every other character", congrats, you had a few games where that happened to you. But I grind this character a couple hours a day on average, and can say from personal experience that people who mash mindlessly with top tiers (most of the time because they think they are hot stuff) just end up gets punished hard. Ganon's down smash is one of the most brutal ledge catch options in the game, and with plats his up smash kills almost everyone above 60% if they roll. Flame choke is a full on oki nightmare all in itself and can lead to multiple KO setups. And don't even get me started on his down throw. His aerials are amazing ESPECIALLY his up air. Down air shatters the soul of anyone it hits. Back air is almost punish free on wif. Up air spikes (technically) and also works incredibly well for ledge guarding. Forward air deals good shield damage and also has a huge hitbox for good pressure and zoning. Nair is awesome when combined with a down throw for easy damage out the gate. His specials are decent too. Up special works great for out of shield situations, and has amazing height for recovering. Down special has low startup lag and works great for mixing up your recovery. And his warlock punch is just hype. Does Ganon have his problems? Yes. But I think that a top finish at a Major is definitely possible with him. His mental gameplay is just too good, and I think that if someone can take that to the next level then a national level tournament win is definitely doable and realistic
You lost me as soon as you said "up special has amazing height for recovery" bro that shit goes nowhere what are you on and down special has low startup lag??? move is frame 16 there are smash attacks faster than that along with a peepee sized hitbox, -29 on shield, loses to Link's boomerang of all things, and doesn't even kill all that well because you hit the sourspot more often than not because it has priority over the sweetspot for some reason. Ganondorf is 100% the worst character in Ultimate its depressing how horrible he is even Smash 4 Ganondorf was better
@@one-wingedoreo it has more height than like half the casts recoveries if we are talking straight vertical. And assuming that you grab your opponent it gets doubled. And while it may loose to Link's boomerang, you are 100% wrong when you said it can't kill. I happen to hit the sweet spot with amazing consistency, so one of two things. Either (a) you just suck at the character (which is very likely because almost nobody bothers to put in the effort for the grind) or (b) you don't have a thorough understanding of hit boxes. And yeah, it's not terribly fast, but it's better than a lot of other options that a lot of the cast has all things considered
Ganon is the worst character in the game. His only strength is well, his strength. He has a myriad of weaknesses such as his slow movement and attack speed, difficulty approaching as he also lacks quick disjoints and projectiles, has a poor and exploitable recovery, is combo food due to his tall stature and heavy weight, etc. Even some other low tiers like Little Mac and Dr. Mario get occasional upsets in tournaments, while Ganondorf has never had these kinds of victories since early 2019. Mind games will only get you so far and being a character that purely relies on your opponent making a mistake to win is not a good character (which many of those characters also tend to be low tiers).
@@SonicTheCutehog I love how you talk about poor recovery and then proceed to mention two characters who have recoveries that are a thousand times worse. I played Mac before I was a Ganon main and can tell you that his recovery is awful in comparison. Mac also gets launched a lot easier than Ganon does, which makes this factor worse.
@@SonicTheCutehog I love how you say that Ganon has poor recovery and then proceed to mention too characters with recoveries that are easily a thousand times worse. I've played Mac so I know this. Yeah Ganon doesn't have projectiles, but that doesn't make him bad. You said he lacks good disjoints and combos. Good combos don't necessarily mean a character in themselves is good. Mac has fantastic combos but is garbage off the ledge. Ganon is a very good ledge trapper, and assuming that you read your opponent, you can get all sorts of nasty combos through flamechoke. The video put freaking Meta Night and triple D above Ganon. Give me a freaking break. Meta is easily worse. Inconsistent combos, tons of moves that leave him open, and gets killed at 50% by most characters. Yeah his recovery is good but that's about it. Ganon wins that matchup any day of the week. DDD I understand. But Meta, Dr. Mario, and Mac? Get good bro. Ganon takes Ws on those any day. You said that mind games can only take you so far. Bull. Even in the most polished professional gameplay, there is always mistakes made. And that a good Ganon player knows how to capitalize on such mistakes, and in the end that is what makes Ganon a low mid tier. He is just that good at taking Ws off of mistakes, something several characters have trouble doing. A well rounded Ganon player will beat any mid player who thinks that their high tier main can carry them, which seems to be the common memo.
I know how to buff him without making him completely busted, increased ground speed or buffed recovery. Immunity to windboxes and super armor while using Up B, perhaps?
I disagree he received only insignificant buffs, for one singular reason: *The removal of tech check.* You know, the technique who hindered so much Captain Falcon in ultimate. The problem is that I would say his new smash attacks are worse than the old ones, especially up smash, and you don't really need that to 2-frame Ganondorf effectively due to how predictable his recovery is.
Sakurai hates Ganondorf. It would be SO easy to make him good too. Just a little faster moves, just a bit further jump, just a tad heavier... Wouldn't even need a whole new moves or anything. Though, that would be cool.
for anybody reading the comments please ignore this man, 5 years of delusion and play ridley have led him into creating opinions like this, just ignore and pray for him
![[[OFFICIAL MV]] เอิ้นขวัญให้อ้าย- อ๊ะอาย สกุณาพร | ค่ายเพลงเป็นหนึ่ง](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/83x6L3X3qh0/mqdefault.jpg)
Ganondorf may be bad, but I’ll be damned if his neutral air wasn’t one of the most braindead moves in the game.
Id probably consider it braindead if the first hit always combod into the second, which it doesnt sadly
It's ok, not nearly as braindead as link's.
I wish it was that good. It is really his only truly decent move so it looks better than it really is.
It's a pretty decent move actually.
The con ? It's on Ganondorf.
It's funny how most of its aerials are pretty damn good, but they are attached on a character with one of the shittiest air physics in the game 😢
@@AnActualEgg1 It's kind of ironic that Ultimate Ganondorf ended up as the worst, when the design he has is based on his Ocarina of Time appearance, which once appeared in Smash Melee, back when Bowser was meant to be bad.
i never knew that all ganons moves combined have more endlag than elite smash lobbies after a rage quit
also fact ^
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The nerf to flame choke was actually part of a more general change to all suicide moves. Off the top of my head I know chrom also got it and I’m assuming a bunch of other characters did too.
Nope. Only Chrom and Ganondorf. Since Chrom in a last stock scenario could just... Nair, nair, fair, up-b, win.
Ganondorf had Flame Choke killing first carried over from Smash 4. Which they decided was a necessary nerf I guess.
If you get hit by Ganondorf's side B while offstage, you deserve to die at 0% 😭
Bowser too, no?
@@KaiAbito-vy2gg from a look at the smash wiki apparently not so
@@KaiAbito-vy2gg Bowser was never able to kill first off of Bowsercide. Even when it was first a command grab to use offstage. Ganondorf was the ONLY one to get the command grab nerf.
The problem with this is Nintendo.
They don’t have seasons or do major balance changes with them being in the actual focus.
Most of the time it’s just 1 or 2 changes that are there just because the DLCs got released.
Also, after the last DLC gets released there are no more balance patches. Practically all other fighting games get supported for years after their last DLC characters.
This doesn’t happen with smash and it’s extremely easy to see how a game can degenerate after some time the techs get figured out…
You have brawl meta knight, smash 4 bayo and ultimate’s Steve (and sonic)
It’s a shame that what should be the greatest celebration of video games history has such poor maintenance
He may suck but every Warlock Punch, spike, and Flame Choke chain makes up for it!
No it really doesn’t please give my man some buffs
Ganondorf being the worst character in Ultimate is such a slap in the face because this is THE Smash game where being slow isn't a death sentence.
Pyra is slow and has dogshit airspeed and some really unsafe moves, but she is still viable.
Kazuya is the slowest shoto and in-spite of his ToD capabilities he has glaring neutral weaknesses and punish windows, but he is still viable.
R.O.B's on-stage mobility is ass and he is one of the most easily combo'd characters of the cast, but he's still viable.
Meanwhile characters like Meta Knight, Bowser Jr, and Pichu have speed and mobility that is usually typical of Top Tiers but their viability is always called into question.
This is *THE* game where Ganondorf should have been at his best and he simply isn't. I don't know how much more doomed this character is destined to be.
Kazuya isn't a Shoto.
You also blatantly chose to ignore the fact that Pyra is DIRECTLY attached to Mythra, so any complaints of mobility are made moot.
Kazuya has Super Armour on a bunch of moves ontop of having Rage Drive Comeback that already makes him more dangerous.
R.O.B's on stage mobility is anything but bad.
1) Pyra is attached to Mythra, meaning she's only used when you need to close stocks which she's good at.
2) I'm sure R.O.B's movility is average, slightly worse than Mario and around the same level as Ken.
3) Steve is the best character and he's very slow, but it is because he has absurd boxing powers, the hability of making terrain at will and just breaking preestablished rules of smash.
4) Just like in Brawl, Snake is a very good character despite its lack of speed due to its good frame data on get-off me moves and absurd damage-racking potential.
Ganondorf just has nothing going for, being painfully slow, easy to hit, bad recovery that used to be worse btw, moves that are incredibly redundant (He doesn't need so many kill moves), no way to beat disjoints despite an above average range, no Out of Shield game, awful grab game and tons of moves that only work if you lack knowledge of the matchup.
@@user-be3qc7re9oshoto is used interchangeably with FGC by smash players cause ryu and ken where first and their name stuck
Ganondorf' strenght :
- he hits hard
Ganondorf' weaknesses :
- No Disjoint
- The worst recovery in the game (I will die on this hill, given if Ganondorf can actually come back on it LOL)
- Terrible frame data, especially against shields, even though he is meant to break shields easily.
- Non existent grab game (his back throw is negative on hit at low percent, also none of them kills)
- No defensive options (Up B out of shield can miss on some characters up close)
- Its Nair, the only "good" move it has, sometimes doesn't have enough hitstun on its first hit to confirm the 2nd.
- No mobility
It's funny because when we look at King K Rool, he has similar killing power, but unlike Ganondorf, ACTUALLY HAS TOOLS OTHER THAN BRUTE FORCE. He is the only super heavyweight to have projectiles. Can ACTUALLY recover, has actual aerials, Nair and F-Tilt have hyperarmor, albeit risky due to the durability, can be thrown out in a trade and wins the trade.
He isn't even out of E tier, and yet he has SO MUCH MORE tools than Ganondorf.
If Ganondorf is so bad why is he so fun
I mean to be fair all the E tier characters are fun, ganon just happens to be funny
Cuz he is Captain Falcon from zelda with sword
Personally, as a Ganondorf player, I think it comes down to 2 things.
1. As mentioned, his moves are actually really good, but are hindered by his poor mobility. So as a result, his moves are often very satisfying to land. I mean they just have that impact and you just feel powerful while landing these moves. Sure, he gets thrown around like a ragdoll 90% of the match, but you only need a few hits in that other 10% to even it up.
2. Ganondorf being the worst character gives him that natural underdog hype (similar to good Little Macs or K. Rools). Since you actually have to outplay your opponent as a low tier such as Ganondorf, when you're kicking ass with the character, it just feels that much more fun / rewarding. However, he is a very polarizing character in terms of fun because of this. You're either having a blast as you KO opponents in just a few good hits, or you live an existence of pain, being rag-dolled / camped for 7 minutes straight.
@@nickh.4940 I just think if the player is patient enough Ganon can wait for hid opening and open them up. That’s what I like about him.
Ganon has a serious Fear Factor that no other character has though.
Kazuya Steve Luigi just to name a few
K.O Punch
Dedede has superior fear factor in my opinion. Mostly due to charging hammer.
Incineroar
Bowser does too and he gets to be fast
There is one thing that ganondorf can do better than anyone else however: reads. If you can analyze your opponents attack patterns, boom all you need is one hit and you got your opponent in what I call “instinct mode” which commonly makes them choose one of a few “safer” options to escape, which can commonly be read. For instance, a Mewtwo teleport, or a simple roll.
The same is true with Rob nair, Steve up tilt, kazuya EWGF etc. Except these moves aren't punishable and don't require reads like ganon does. That's why he sucks.
fun game to play called flame choke guessing where you find an opponent who always chooses to roll and then guess which direction they will roll so you can instantly get them into another flame choke
Ganondorf rely solely on reads, while having moves that don't really reward you that much for reads ??? Sure they hit hard, but you'll only land 1-2 of them when you get an opening.
Meanwhile every other superheavyweights at least get SOMETHING, on top of having generally better moves.
Why would you use Ganondorf for its raw power when King K Rool and Bowser do that, but better and easier ?
Why would you play neutral with Ganondorf when King K Rool and DeDeDe do it better ?
The ONE thing he had in Sm4sh was its unga bunga strenght, but now that said strenght is much more available across the board, he isn't special anymore.
This is just completely false. Every other heavy has just as good read options only they have other stuff too.
I'm pretty sure the side-b nerf was so you couldn't cheese single player Spirit matches out as easily, they did the same thing with most of the other suicide kill options like it
He really needs a buff though lol
He got a sword, but at what cost..
Getting mashed on by every character in the game sadly
Fighting games need to quit the design of giving a ton of damage to a slow character and expecting it to work. If you look at other games, all viable combo food characters have other big strengths to compensate. Such as unique gimmicks or helpful movement options to close the gap. Zangief has green hand, Potemkin has hammer fall…
Now movement is important for any fighting game, but even more for Smash. If you give four major weaknesses (combo food, slow AF, no long range options, horrible recovery) then it’s impossible to make him good by buffing his single strength (power). Ganon desperately needs a redesign not just because he’s a terrible representation of his canon self, but also because he’s forever destined to be bottom tier with that design.
Really, the cursed trio of big body, bad recovery, and no defense options is enough to end any character. Weight doesn't matter if you're dying faster than everyone else due to getting comboed then edgeguarded/being unable to recover. For being the heaviest character in the game, Bowser regularly dies earlier than tons of characters, because it doesn't actually matter that he needs to be at 160 to kill him off the side, if he just can't make it back at 120.
Dedede is a good example of this being done well. Of all the heavies, Dedede is basically the only one that ever actually gets to enjoy the supposed survivability, because he can ACTUALLY RECOVER and force it to be an issue. All the other heavies just get gimped or edgeguarded at like 80.
It's stupid to only put weight on characters with no ability to actually leverage it. Dedede is still heavily flawed in other areas defensively, but at the very least, Dedede usually isn't dying for a good while.
It's baffling at how overbalanced these traits are. It's like, in Magic the Gathering, when the developers thought being Legendary or multicolored was a BUFF to a card, and so gave them downsides in addition to the more complex costs and conditions.
I swear it feels like this is the case here. The devs think being heavy, slow, and big is a strength, so give it extra downsides, despite being big, heavy, and slow actually being a downside.
Ganon is top 5 most fun in casual
until you die at 30% every stock
Along with DK, Incineroar, Puff (just my opinion but rest is sick in casual), and Ike imo
I wouldn't exactly call ganondorf in his own tier of bad.
Because yeah melee bowser shares a tier with kirby, but ganon is better than both.
I fought major at a local once, and as a dedede main I always felt that I had to do a lot of heavy lifting for my character to win in a way that nobody else really needs to with their character.
Major knew how to consistently beat my ledge trapping with the goddamn slap off of dark dive by game one.
Major’s spine must be made of titanium the way he has to carry that poor character, good lord.
He has one of the cheapest braindead attacks, of course devs would refuse to properly buff him; just like Symmetra from Overwatch, she’s widely considered trash but has cheap kit that developers will always refuse to buff her. So in conclusion; he needs moveset upgrade, hopefully in the next game
Ganon shares a tier list perspective of Link and Zelda. Those two have never been high tier or even mid high tier. 3 pieces of the Triforce really are connected.
Yes, that is why they should just start from scratch and redesign all the Zelda characters. They've sucked for so long so they just need a rework.
@@LinktheCommunistWaifudon’t change gdorf my beloved
@@meee_5155 Nah, he's absolutely garbage. We have to change him.
@@LinktheCommunistWaifuLink's not really that bad in smash ultimate, C+ is pretty respectable. Even Zelda's been pretty good occasionally in fan games like PM and Smash Flash 2, they just have to make her moveset work together better.
Bro, which Link ?
Ganondorf is like that one kid that peaked around high school. And then their life slowly got worse and worse until we see them as a shell of their former selves (seriously like nearly every ganon incarnation he’s always at the lowest tier ever except in melee)
Honestly I don’t even see why even keep Ganon in this game if they constantly make him bad and continue not to give him any assisting buffs, even after all the bad results he’s had. I mean there’s a multitude of moves Ganon can have based off his own games but they continue to disregard and disrespect the character even further. All I want to know is why keep making a mockery of him? What are the developers and Sakurai thinking 😂
I believe that the smash bros developers don’t give a shit about Legend of Zelda and the characters are only there out of popularity sakes , it’s clear when they did the bare minimum with Breath of the Wild Link
The problem with ganon is that his concept is really hard to make good and fun in a competitive enviroment, they want him to be a character that can kill you in very few interactions through incredibly powerful moves, but then if you make a character like that just the slightest but too strong he'd basically be the best character in the game, he'd basically be like an easier execition kazuya, so they make him reliant on reading the opponent to land good hits through his bad mobility and frame data, and the fact he inherently needs to read the opponent or rely on some kind of setup or advantage, means that if he ever is loosing he'll basically never win again, plus reads are by nature inconsistent, if the opponent ever figures out what you're up to, then you've already lost
ok I'm gonna get this off my chest
WHY WOULD THEY MAKE SIDE B BOTH MASHABLE AND MAKE IT KILL YOU FIRST, WHY
WHY DOES EVERY OTHER MOVE LIKE IT GET TO NOT BE MASHABLE BUT GANNON GETS GIMPED FOR NO REASON
ok I'm done now
Buffing Ganondorf is very tricky. Adding a bit of air speed or frame data would make him waaaayyyy too powerful.
He's a monster against casuals, though.
I wouldn't say he's the worst smash character in history, honestly the only MAJOR problems are his recovery and speed, its just that all the top tier/in the meta characters have him as a +3 at least, and he has no winning matchups, you're literally playing to lose if you play ganon because of how the game works/how he interacts with other characters
hehe major i get it because major's the top rep for the character
@EDDYSUNSHINEv2 that wasn't what I meant but that's funny 💀- I mean yeah that's what I meant, mhmm
- Barely any range, his Nair being its safer move with average range
- Horrendous defense, smaller characters can outright dodge your few out of shields options by doing nothing.
- 2 useless moves; Volcano Kick, which replace what could've been an anti-air, and Warlock Punch, where its ONLY use case is on shield breaks. Especially terrible when you misinput them, it doesn't happen often, but when it does...
- No combos, you get 1-2, at MOST, 3 hits in at very low percent, after that, you have to go for stray hits.
- It's unga bunga strenght isn't unique anymore. Other superheavies may have _slightly_ less raw power per attack, but since their attacks are actually, you know, GOOD, they tend to land them way more often.
4:26
That's my oomf‼️‼️‼️
What led ganon to be considered better I think still holds true to him even if it doesn’t support him being in a higher tier placement. His hitboxes do a good job at covering space around him and he can definitely capitalize off of ledge planking to circumvent his large hurtbox which gives him something to do in the corner. Playing a bit more defensively also just lets ganon download his opponent better so he can scheme some callouts that’ll be necessary for later in the game to close distance and stocks. Ppl just realized he’s a 39 hour per week job so he’s getting paid for part time while just short of full time hours
At least the sword is cool
it really is
Honestly never understood why they kept his worse Falcon moveset after melee, there is so much cool source material you can use to make him a good character(such as giving him a peach hover like in oot, electric projectiles, a teleport, his trident) they just really don't care about him for some reason.
I gotta say this, I love the Luigi PFP from the Grayfruit stream.
All I know is that buffing Ganon is hard because when it comes to casual gameplay, Ganon stomps everyone, buff him too much and the whole ‘casual playing at a party’ aspect is skewed in his favor heavily, it’s the case for all the heavyweights
Important to note that at one point in time, little mac was also in E-, but recent tournament success from peanut and tarakatori encouraged people to respect him ever so slightly more, leaving ganon alone in E-.
I’d actually go out to say that he’s not THAT bad. Like he’s bottom 5 for sure, but I’d say Dedede or maybe Mac is worse
neither of them are even remotely close to being worse and i quit comp because dedede's so trash lmfao
How to fix Ganon: give him a float, make his ground and air speed better. Like snakes for example. There mid to highish tier character.
just a little bit more aerial drift speed and he's not that bad
Winning with ganon does not mean ganon wins
You win
You completely and utterly defeat your opponent with your own skill
Ganon will never be good, but I don't care because I'll still main him
They really had the chance to give Ganon his wizard's dive kick custom move for his DownB in Ult and they just decided against it, it's so sad
I know I’m probably wrong but I really think that ganon is the worst character in brawl as well. I know it’s ivy then puff but I swear ganon is worse because you can’t win everything with up smash. Also he’s probably the worst in smash 4 as well.
I always thought ganon was the best character because he does beeg damage.
Now that I think about it, I haven't touched the game in 3 years, that probably explains a lot.
Reminds me of when they said that they'd take elite smash results as grounds for patches, and ganondorf was the most played in elite.
no way you did my homie fireboy like that xD
It was a close set!
I’ve been a Ganondorf main since the Smash Ultimate demo! I do think he is underrated and I find other characters worse than him like Dr.Mario and Little Mac. Also, I recognise your name and I’m pretty sure I fought your Ganondorf before with mine :)
Dr. Mario and especially Little Mac being worse?
Heck no.
dayum nice editing. keep at it king
it's because he's good against other casuals, same reason king k rool is way the shit down there lol
good video tho
I am sad Ganon is so bad since he meant a lot to me in Melee (I was supposed to main Jigglypuff but I wasn't very good at wall of pains, so I picked the easier Falcon), then he sucked in every Smash game since.
Something to note when comparing Ult Ganon to other bad smash characters. While he is worse than every other ultimate character, he’s more viable in Ult than Bowser is in Melee for example. In melee there’s more characters that are complete garbage, while Ult has very few characters that are really bad.
Ganondorf may be bad, but he's pretty fun to play , probably one my favorite smash character despite being a worse falcon
Sick video man, keep it up :)
This was a really informative video as to why gannon is the worst, not like everyone else just saying he's the worst. Earned a follow from me
Sonic Doesn't have the smallest ledge hurtbox. I tested a bunch of moves on them both and found 1 that hits Sonic but not Ganon.
If you're curious, it's Little Mac's up smash.
-Yo'ster
My father mained gannon and lucario. He died before lucario got buffs. For him the struggle was real.
I main the villager and mii sword w a few secondaries like ToonL, mii gunnr, and (brawler)the exeption)
The MIDness is real but at least there better than gannon.
Counter argument
Big number + beefy sound make brain happy
They nerfed flame chokes SD trade not because it was broken, but because it was dumb. They changed all the SD trades (mostly), not just Ganon’s, to work like this because it’s really unfun and stupid otherwise.
2:15: that was just disrespectful
I still stand Mac is worse than Ganon but overall bro needs a original move set
So this is coming from someone who has been a Ganon main for the past year now. Calling Ganon the worst character in the game is like saying a fish doesn't swim. Its just not true. Yes his recovery is somewhat exploitable. And yeah, his speed is subpar. But this character is top half of the roster if your mind games and conditioning are at their best. In response to the video creators comment about how he "just gets mashed out by every other character", congrats, you had a few games where that happened to you. But I grind this character a couple hours a day on average, and can say from personal experience that people who mash mindlessly with top tiers (most of the time because they think they are hot stuff) just end up gets punished hard. Ganon's down smash is one of the most brutal ledge catch options in the game, and with plats his up smash kills almost everyone above 60% if they roll. Flame choke is a full on oki nightmare all in itself and can lead to multiple KO setups. And don't even get me started on his down throw. His aerials are amazing ESPECIALLY his up air. Down air shatters the soul of anyone it hits. Back air is almost punish free on wif. Up air spikes (technically) and also works incredibly well for ledge guarding. Forward air deals good shield damage and also has a huge hitbox for good pressure and zoning. Nair is awesome when combined with a down throw for easy damage out the gate. His specials are decent too. Up special works great for out of shield situations, and has amazing height for recovering. Down special has low startup lag and works great for mixing up your recovery. And his warlock punch is just hype. Does Ganon have his problems? Yes. But I think that a top finish at a Major is definitely possible with him. His mental gameplay is just too good, and I think that if someone can take that to the next level then a national level tournament win is definitely doable and realistic
You lost me as soon as you said "up special has amazing height for recovery"
bro that shit goes nowhere what are you on
and down special has low startup lag??? move is frame 16 there are smash attacks faster than that
along with a peepee sized hitbox, -29 on shield, loses to Link's boomerang of all things, and doesn't even kill all that well because you hit the sourspot more often than not because it has priority over the sweetspot for some reason. Ganondorf is 100% the worst character in Ultimate
its depressing how horrible he is
even Smash 4 Ganondorf was better
@@one-wingedoreo it has more height than like half the casts recoveries if we are talking straight vertical. And assuming that you grab your opponent it gets doubled. And while it may loose to Link's boomerang, you are 100% wrong when you said it can't kill. I happen to hit the sweet spot with amazing consistency, so one of two things. Either (a) you just suck at the character (which is very likely because almost nobody bothers to put in the effort for the grind) or (b) you don't have a thorough understanding of hit boxes. And yeah, it's not terribly fast, but it's better than a lot of other options that a lot of the cast has all things considered
Ganon is the worst character in the game. His only strength is well, his strength. He has a myriad of weaknesses such as his slow movement and attack speed, difficulty approaching as he also lacks quick disjoints and projectiles, has a poor and exploitable recovery, is combo food due to his tall stature and heavy weight, etc. Even some other low tiers like Little Mac and Dr. Mario get occasional upsets in tournaments, while Ganondorf has never had these kinds of victories since early 2019. Mind games will only get you so far and being a character that purely relies on your opponent making a mistake to win is not a good character (which many of those characters also tend to be low tiers).
@@SonicTheCutehog I love how you talk about poor recovery and then proceed to mention two characters who have recoveries that are a thousand times worse. I played Mac before I was a Ganon main and can tell you that his recovery is awful in comparison. Mac also gets launched a lot easier than Ganon does, which makes this factor worse.
@@SonicTheCutehog I love how you say that Ganon has poor recovery and then proceed to mention too characters with recoveries that are easily a thousand times worse. I've played Mac so I know this. Yeah Ganon doesn't have projectiles, but that doesn't make him bad. You said he lacks good disjoints and combos. Good combos don't necessarily mean a character in themselves is good. Mac has fantastic combos but is garbage off the ledge. Ganon is a very good ledge trapper, and assuming that you read your opponent, you can get all sorts of nasty combos through flamechoke. The video put freaking Meta Night and triple D above Ganon. Give me a freaking break. Meta is easily worse. Inconsistent combos, tons of moves that leave him open, and gets killed at 50% by most characters. Yeah his recovery is good but that's about it. Ganon wins that matchup any day of the week. DDD I understand. But Meta, Dr. Mario, and Mac? Get good bro. Ganon takes Ws on those any day. You said that mind games can only take you so far. Bull. Even in the most polished professional gameplay, there is always mistakes made. And that a good Ganon player knows how to capitalize on such mistakes, and in the end that is what makes Ganon a low mid tier. He is just that good at taking Ws off of mistakes, something several characters have trouble doing. A well rounded Ganon player will beat any mid player who thinks that their high tier main can carry them, which seems to be the common memo.
I know how to buff him without making him completely busted, increased ground speed or buffed recovery. Immunity to windboxes and super armor while using Up B, perhaps?
Ganondorf: Stop making me the worst character!
Sakurai: But it's fun!
I disagree he received only insignificant buffs, for one singular reason: *The removal of tech check.* You know, the technique who hindered so much Captain Falcon in ultimate. The problem is that I would say his new smash attacks are worse than the old ones, especially up smash, and you don't really need that to 2-frame Ganondorf effectively due to how predictable his recovery is.
As a little Mac main. Little Mac is worse
This insight of the character, known as Genondorg, fuck misspelled
Sakurai hates Ganondorf.
It would be SO easy to make him good too. Just a little faster moves, just a bit further jump, just a tad heavier...
Wouldn't even need a whole new moves or anything. Though, that would be cool.
top tier content
of cors
Yeah, but I’d be lying if I said he wasn’t fun ad hell
How is ness better than Lucas on this tier list?
The only possible good thing in a possible sakurailess future for smash is a good Ganondorf
Ganondork
I miss the day when the tiny man from the Bronx was worse
He's fun in project +
Soooo good videos, do more pls
He’s still fun to play. I don’t care how bad he is or what people have to say. Ganondorf is awesome.
I can't believe Link is the worst character
Why would they remove the Gannoncide
NU uhhhhhh
and yet he's still better than ridley! insane!
for anybody reading the comments please ignore this man, 5 years of delusion and play ridley have led him into creating opinions like this, just ignore and pray for him
ridley nair alone is better than ganon as a character
@@flying7900no kidding Ganon can't even touch that move.
Ridley’s kinda good though. And I’m not saying that cause I lose to him but because I win the most with him out of all the big characters.
@@flying7900Yeah Ridley's Nair and Neutral B alone can defeat Ganon just knock him offstage and cheese him.
thats not true
Brawl ganon is worse.
this is epic