Fr. I believe Christ told us to look at the log in your eye before your cast judgement on your sisters and brothers. Yes this is said, bu there is a Autocephlous Church in America, The Orthodox Church in America. Unlike the other jurisdictions is not balled with an Ethic Adjective such as your parish in California Antiochian which your bishops have now proclaimed a need to emphasize an antiochian identity. Unity will begin at the local level, when will you join the OCA and give up your ethic adjective. The OCA has monasteries, seminaries, local saints and local elected bishops born in the United States, not appointed by a foreign synod, and born in a foreign country. If fact the Primate is born in America, your Met is born where? I guess you were speaking to your parish and bishops. Also Evangelical Christians are the most divided without any understanding of a Ignatius ecclesiology. Due they not have a independent parish ecclesiology that is an affiliation with the greater evangelical movement? I guess the LBGT issue is not longer vogue for you.
voiceofreason I agree, as I thought that Father was part of American Orthodox Church, but it seems he is also part of Antiochian Orthodox Church. This is ok, and any Orthodox believer can pray and be part of any other recognized Orthodox church in the world. On the other hand on the canonical level, I believe in order to become national church of America, OCA needs to pass trough the steps to be recognized by all other national Orthodox Churches to become as well national church of America (USA), and then be able to choose their Patriarch and invite other Orthodox brothers to become united in American Orthodox Church.
I am not living in American. But I am so dreadfully surprised when I hear some converts stating: I am (ethnicity)-orthodox. In most case ethnicity is replaced by Russian-, then in lesser cases Greek-... Philetism from the priests that conducted them to Orthodoxy during conversion. I would understand to say I attend a (ethnicity)-orthodox church, this is still OK.
From Serbian Orthodox: We are all one! I think that America needs American Orthodox Church with American Patriarch who knows american mental code and we all other Orthodox need to help to you. Glory to Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Amen.
I agree with you. I think that it is pretty problematic the strong ethnic roots Orthodox Churches insist to have in non-Orthodox countries. It is hard to bring foreigners to the Church as long as it is this strong division between the ethnic roots of each Church.
M M I agree. All of us born in America need to remember that we are American. Our ancestors may have immigrated from somewhere in Europe or Russia, etc, but WE ARE AMERICANS. ☦️
I agree, but In Orthodoxy this question is not the easy one. Even Latin churches tend to be ethnic depending on the area that they cover. In Orthodoxy to become recognized national church (in this case American Orthodox), there are steps to receive autocephaly from the church that you belong to in the beginning. I am not sure under which jurisdiction and blessing American Orthodox Church get the blessing, but I assume is from Constantinople Ecumenical Patriarchy. When American Orthodox church is ready they can issue the independent status for American Orthodox Church to become the sister church and have right to elect their first Patriarch. As it is now situation, Orthodoxy would not exist in America if there were no believers from recognized Orthodox Churches that came to new land (Usa), and they started their churches with lot of difficulties but they succeeded. Now, after American Orthodox Church become fully independent it will get the right to ask and people from other Orthodox denominations will in majority accept this as their national church.
@@ПредрагКосанчић I agree with both you and MM. As a Serbian Orthodox who lives in Serbia, I'm well aware of the meaning that S.O.C. has for our people and our nation. And I support it's role outside of Serbian lands, to keeping us unite with our diaspora. But, there has to be some measure. I do not expect that third or fourth generation of our diaspora (except for really rare cases) can keep the Serbian national feeling the way it is connected to reality. Reality is that they, in 99% of cases, do not even speak Serbian. Thus, in short, I support the mission of SOC abroad, but in countries like America the obvious emphasis should be on domestic national Orthodox church, like Orthodox church in America. So I think the answer should be somewhere in that direction, that it should be the "main" church in USA, with other national churches connected closely to it. They should serve as a connection of American born Orthodox believers with Orthodox people who came from other traditions, as well as keepers of connection of the diasporas with their native lands. I know this sounds somewhat complex, and maybe not so feasible knowing the nature of human relations, but I think this is the best and the most realistic way the things should develop with Orthodoxy in USA. I agree with father Josiah, this is the moment for Orthodoxy in the West, because the fall of other Christian denomination is really tremendous, and there are so many people looking for meaning and connection to the faith.
Archbishop Dmitri of blessed memory worked very hard to unify orthodoxy in the south. His funeral was an excellent example of the work he had done as several churches were in attendance.
Fr. Trenham. Though I agree that the Orthodox need to unite for several reasons, I believe the biggest challenge for the Orthodox is having courage facing the secular world that is encroaching upon our faith. Our local Orthodox divisions have varied on the lock down from completely locked down to almost completely open. But they do need to unite for the sake of advocacy.
That describes Christianity in general. Christians as a whole need to unite against secularism and the attacks against the Church regardless whether one is Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox.
I’m searching the Orthodox Church for that very reason, I want the non consumerism Church. The churches are too infiltrated. Division in the Church is demonic. I agree with this message. Orthodox Unite. Look at the Roman Catholic is infiltrated by apostate. Synagogue infiltrated by Marxist.
Herman - I would also like to suggest that you bring more of our Hierarchy onto your channel and have them explain how we get to unity. This could be our biggest opportunity if we fix this!
Honestly, for a year now I've felt a desire to return to the Church, but not the Protestant Churches I knew growing up. I've had an inexplicable draw towards Orthodoxy ever since I found out about it. I remember driving past some of the Greek Orthodox churches when I was a teenager and wondering about them but never gave them much thought beyond that instant. I think people like myself are craving meaning, order and structure as much as they are craving a spiritual life in Christ. More over, Orthodoxy has none of the baggage associated with Protestantism or Catholicism.
Really, "non of the baggage" 😆, don't start with blinders son, wake up and smell reality, didn't you listen to this guy in the video, he is devastated at the "baggage", and that is just the drop in the gigantic bucket. Don't get fooled by the pagan rituals and fancy building with idols and icons. Don't get sucked into goddess worship and pagan cultish rituals and secret mystical rites.
Tom, which Orthodox jurisdiction will you be a part of? I was an Episcopalian/Anglican for 4 decades. I was very active in the church. I served in every capacity a layman was allowed to. My wife and I converted to the Orthodox Church 8 years ago. Our only regret is we didn't do it much, much sooner.
Tom Andrew Maybe one solution could be to have the Bishop of each city be on a Rite rotation, if he has multiple rites. When a bishop goes into repose, or has to be replaced for any number of reasons, a bishop from a different rite has to be selected. When he eventually reposes, than the next with be from the third, then fourth, and so on, until there had been a bishop representing every rite in that city, and then start over again. He would also have priests and deacons representing each rite on his staff.
Truth ! Father as a catechumen who lives in a smaller community. I found it very difficult to find a parish. Three cities in my area are only supported by a revolving door of changing diocese. I bless those fathers that travel to minister when they can. I travel 240 miles twice a week and am grateful that the Greek Orthodox in Las Vegas ( St John the Baptist)has lovingly embraced me. I have received most of my teachings through you and others on AFR, and PV like Fr Hopko. This division, I humbly believe has restricted brothers and sisters to find salvation in towns and cities with populations under 50,000. (how I distress that my loving children and grandchildren in Idaho Falls) can not receive our Lord through Church. Thank you for your prayers and blessings for us "out in the desert.
Time in The Church runs slowly... much slower than outside of it. This situation is inherited due to the historical immigration from the Orthodox lands. It can't be solved over night especially if one jurisdiction claims rights over others. Pray to God that solution is found.!
As a Greek, I 'd like to set forth my view on the subject. Being independent, is a core value of the ancient Greek spirit. As the Greeks invitably became the first European Christians, gradually formed the Church that has become the initial Orthodox Church, that created all the other Orthodox churches in other cultures. The Greeks never tried to impose their culture on others. This is key to Greek mindset, and philosophy. They just carried their manners wherever they went, and people around them appreciated their culture and followed or copied. In all the colonies they created long before Christ, they never tried to convert by force the local population. I do not know of any testament against that. And the Romans came and conquered, and turned Greek eventually, so much. That Greek population, created the initial Orthodox church, incorporating values as this, of their pre-Christian past, as the Greek version of Christianity. It is natural, as the Germans eventually created their version of Christianity accomodating their culture, the English also. And when Greeks brought Christianity in Ethiopia, they even created icons with Black Jesus, in order to make the faith more relevant to the locals. After that, they brought Orthodoxy in Eastern Europe, in non Greek speaking nations. Again, they never tried to impose their language and culture on them, and even created an alphabet for them. Following the unmistakable laws of nature that made the Greek culture and philosophy so acceptable and eternal around the world, Greeks understood that local non Greek speakers would eventually create their version of Orthodoxy as well, and even enabled them to do so. This is the difference of Greeks vs barbarians... Orthodoxy vs globalist Catholicism, Islam, or any other rite that aims to grow globally under a single power center. Greeks historically focused to conquer the spirit of people, not the people themselves. So much Orthodoxy, the Church they initially created. The Orthodox rite, has also a long tradition of respecting independence of local Churches. In stark contrast to the Catholic church. We should not try to become like the Catholic Church, in case you imply something like that. In that respect, I agree with the comment of the Serbian brother here. You should aim to create an independent American Orthodox Church, to accomodate the needs of all American Orthodox brothers, no matter their ethnic background. This American Orthodox Church should of course respect and acknowledge the historic primacy of the Constantinople Patriarchate, but be independent, as all other Patriarchates are, and do. It was evolutionally unavoidable for America to pass the stage of ethnic and fragmented Orthodoxy, but I think that the time has come for all, to accept the creation of the independent American Orthodox church... This will also solve the problem of Russia trying to influence the Orthodox world for you Americans. Having secret services and diplomacy trying to divide Orthodoxy between Russian influenced Orthodox churches and all the rest, will not do the trick... The aim should be for local/national Orthodox churches to be in full communion. Not to create one global Church... This is not natural. This is not Greek... Nevertheless, in case you do not know, for a Greek, Greece, is the whole universe...
Kudos Father Josiah! As an Orthodox Convert for 16 years, I could not agree more with your words. Our problem is bishops (old men) fighting over power and jurisdictions. It is so very sad.
You are exactly right! I am just getting into the faith now, and the sorting through of all the divisions here in the US was discouraging. Fortunately, I am determined , but many might be more easily turned off by this. Lord have mercy!! Thanks for sharing this with us.
The "divisions" are discouraging, but I really like that America has many different Orthodox traditions. I attend an OCA church were Greek, Russian, Antiochian, Romanian, and Bulgarian Orthodox Christians all regularly attend or have at least visited. Most of our church (including me) are converts though. And I always enjoy attending all of the churches I mentioned above when i have the opportunity. I like meeting new people and seeing how subtle differences in tradition or different chanting styles and even just hearing different languages can be very inspiring to me. Unfortunately, in some cases there are some of those churches they can be more divisive towards one another. And in some cases if you are not from a particular church then people from there will not want to converse with you. But mostly I have had pretty positive experiences in visiting different Orthodox churches and going to the coffee hour or fellowship meal afterwards. its usually really fun.
@@joachimjustinmorgan4851 I live in the Dallas metroplex. There aren't many orthodox churches, but there is an abundance of Catholic and Protestant churches. The fact that the Orthodox are building few churches and so spread out, and yet they still give priority to their own ethnicity instead of to the country they decided to live in, when they even are able to speak English, is a terrible obstacle for me. It also happens that the most beautiful Orthodox church anywhere near me is Greek. If I want to go to "Orthodox Church in America" that isn't extremely tiny, I have to drive all the way to downtown Dallas, for 30 minutes. So I've gone to the Greek one instead, and it makes no sense that they use English, but then for some parts of the liturgy, nope, you've got to be Greek, as you see people do the sign of the cross to something I can't even understand. I've gone there four times and nobody has said hi to me, I thought they'd be happy a 16 year old is interested in their faith. Nobody there that I can be friends with, I feel invisible, and my parents don't agree with the Orthodox so I just go there by myself. So much for the Church will be a family to me. I feel like I am being treated as some kind of intruder and disrupter for not knowing every practice I'm supposed to do during the service when I go there to learn, and I don't know if every Orthodox church is like this, but the catechumen class is something you must join right as it starts, and there is only one class that goes on for 6 months, so I haven't been allowed to learn anything yet, I'm just supposed to sit there, learn nothing as I listen to what sounds like gibberish to me. And, the class has to be on zoom because of "Covid" after I said I wanted to be taught in person, at the same time you drink out of the same cup because God will protect us? All that while I receive conflicting views on my own eternal salvation, am I supposed to believe I am damned to eternal fire currently before I simply have the right to learn anything? I guess they don't care if I die in a car crash on the long drive to any of their churches, and was my whole life a lie, the Holy Spirit indwelling me, was that fake, and do I get Baptized or just Chrismated? If only Chrismated, was my Baptism in a Baptist Church valid, and when I pray to Jesus do I pray as a heathen or a believer, apart from his body or not? Good Lord the struggle to put in effort into this mess. At this point, even though I logically believe that Orthodoxy is true from what I see, my experience and everything else is telling me I should go and act like I believe Vatican 2, Vatican 1 and the Council of Trent at the same time in a Catholic Church, or heck, maybe even go back to a Baptist Church... It's really depressing how hard it is, and I don't believe you should be adding to it with prioritizing your ethnic identity in American if you really care for us.
@@ICXC4033 I can’t believe that you have the audacity to complain about driving 30 minutes to Church. Or that you have a Greek Church near your house you could attend. I know Turkish Christians that drive 4 hours on Saturday night and get a hotel room so they can go to church on Sunday. There are many simple solutions to your complaint, but your “problem,” is one that is spiritual in nature. If you really want advice, I suggest you alternate driving 30 minutes to the OCA Church one week and attending the Greek Church the next week. Try to overcome the passion of pride you have against these people, attend confession with a priest snd bring all these things you have shared with me up. I feel like the things you shared are more appropriate to confess as your own sins rather than try to justify.
This type of thing reminds me of my family. I wasn't told that my brother had died for 10 years! I found out by accident when talking to one of my aunts. Everybody just assumed that I knew or was told. The church needs more cohesiveness, and I'm not even Orthodox yet. I was brought to it by a year and have an interest in monasticism. Even as a non-member yet, I still see his point. May God guide the leadership and bring peace to this issue.
The unity of the Orth Churches could certainly bring more catechumens who are sitting on the sidelines waiting, and also save denominations that are in serious trouble and searching. People would be reluctant to coming to the Orth Church if they have just come from or are stuck in a denomination which already suffers from divisions, quarrels and corruption to top it off. Yes, we need to show as true Christians, Orthodoxy has the love of a true Christian and come together. Language is the issue as I see it and there is a balancing act in some parishes to accommodate both and yet many of the people attending now, only speak one language - English. ?? We need your help Fr Josiah....God bless!
The fractured orthodox nationalities in the west makes it SO HARD for native converts. I was so close to choosing catholic on that issue and I know many who have made that choice just because it’s easier! Can you believe it’s easier to convert to a church of pedophiles rather than our orthodoxy!!? And yet if anyone says “why can’t we have an American/British/french patriarch?” WE are accused of nationalism!
I feel like a complete outsider at orthodox not only because I’m African American but the whole culture is so different and how they speak different languages makes it pretty difficult. And in Protestant churches I feel more welcomed though I may not agree with the beliefs it’s nice to see people like me and other races ofc
I don’t concern myself with the unity of the church because I’m too busy trying to improve my unity with Christ. In my opinion this should come first, worry about the “politics” never.
The problem with that way of thinking is that the Lord Jesus Christ gave us two commandments to follow: Love of God AND Love of Neighbor. He did not give these commandments one after the other but together, to be lived at the same time. We live not only to love God but also to love our neighbor. We are called to live NOT outside the world but IN the world.
I think you're right. We should mostly leave these issues to the hierarchy and clergy to work out - though there's nothing wrong with putting a little pressure on them to let them know we are interested in unity :)
@@titob.yotokojr.9337 Great words. Since we are laypeople and we can't do much do help this ecclesiastical mess, we should do what we can and set an example within ourselves of a model of Orthodox unity. Doing thing such as praying for the Church and her hierarchs, primarily calling ourselves Orthodox Christians and with ethnicity being a little side note, and welcoming each and every person who is interested into the Church, as Christ would.
God bless you Fr. Trenham. May God bless us with unity through the Holy Spirit. Let us be one of the sources of bridge building and community connections throughout the Church, our Cities, States, Country and throughout the world. One of the most impactful teachings I have growing up in the Church is how welcoming our culture is to visitors. We being just as curious about them as they are of us without feeling pressure or obligated to convert them. I believe God converts us, even those of us born into the faith.
I’m a “cradle Orthodox”, as they say. I grew up in a steel town with a Russian, a Greek and a Serbian Church. I was very young when the autocephalous OCA came into existence. At that time all services were English with some special things like Paschal greetings in Church Slavonic, English, etc. I was mystified why the Serbian and Greek churches did not join with us because it makes such complete sense. I was told that each wanted to keep their familiar ethnicity. At that time, all churches actually had some members who were from the “old country.” There really were no converts to the faith at that time except for those who married into the Church, and I understand why. We are all Americans and it is time for all of us to be one Orthodox Church. I have lived in several cities since that time. In Dallas we joined the Antiochian Orthodox Church because the Russian Orthodox Church was for the current Russian immigrants and no English was spoken. We attended liturgy there once and no one even spoke to us. I’m in Florida now and there in no OCA church near me, but we do have a Greek, a Coptic and an Antiochian Church, We go to the Antiochian Church which has many converts from various Protestant backgrounds. Our Orthodox members are Greek, Russian, etc, but all services are in English and everyone is welcome here. We enjoy visitors to our church. We have an ethnic food festival every year where wonderful foods from our different backgrounds are served. It’s very popular in our local community as well. I agree that if all the ethnic Orthodox churches would combine, we could make a much bigger impact and I’m sure would have even more converts. We are called to let others know about Christ’s Holy Orthodox Church. We must never let ethnicity divide us. There is strength in unity. Fr. Trenham, is there any progress being made in this regard? ☦️
Any attempt to create a "united" Church in the US would immediately come under the influence of the CIA. This is America, remember. Look what the American influence along with the Phanar did in Ukraine a couple years ago - created a schismatic body. I think the status quo is better than what would happen - a pseudo-church which would have bishops directly controlled by the US government, all of them Masons, and appointed by the CIA. Before too long they would be promoting gay marriage and false union with Rome. This (state interference) is why the other Churches here never joined with the OCA - the OCA received their "autocephaly" from the KGB (of which, in 1970, the Moscow Patriarchate was just a part of). No one wanted anything to do with the OCA for decades because of this, mainly, the Serbs and ROCOR. Now, hypothetically, would the "united American Orthodox Church" use the new, or Orthodox calendar? What about liturgical practices? What about pews? What about receiving grants and foundation money from "charities" and NGOs like the Luce Foundation? What about ecumenism? ROCOR will not submit to this, ever. The Antiochians already said several years ago that they would never want to be separated from their Patriarch. The Greeks are in communion with schismatics in Ukraine. It's a non-issue. There will never be an American Orthodox Church - I wish people would stop talking about it as if it could ever happen. It won't. We're better off the way we are.
77msHelen - as you are aware, us Catholic had this problem of ethnic division (but far less severe). My current catholic church, by looking into its founding history had large Portuguese and Italian Catholics bunched together. Silly, but Portuguese split off to build own church.... 40 years later.. the Portuguese Catholic Church is almost empty ... serving old ladies .. with old priest . My own parish .. the Italians have mostly all disappeared leaving a diverse mix of parishioners. The priests are from India ... bringing pictures of their Indian saints ...
THIS IS THE ORTHODOX MOMENT: All of the former Episcopalians, and other Protestant groups who have left churches that are no longer Biblical are desperate for a Biblical church. This is the time to , as the Bible says, "Ask for the ancient paths; ask where the good way is, and walk in it" . This statement alone drew me to Orthodoxy once I understood what it truly was: the 2,000 year old church of Christ, not a bunch of ethnic cults that keep to themselves! This is so very true; although I grew up Episcopalian, I lived in an ethnically diverse area. I had many friends who were Russian, Yugoslavian, etc. who were Orthodox. All we knew was that their cross was different, and they celebrated holidays on a different day. When I would ask my friends about this, the impression I always was given was that you had to be Russian to go to Russian Orthodox church, and the Eastern Orthodox people were also divided by nationality. My sister broke her engagement to an eastern Orthodox boy whose parents wouldn't accept her because she was not the right nationality. The thing is, upon investigation, our beliefs were really the same as the Orthodox. If we had understood that, if we had been invited to go, we probably would have converted to Orthodox 30 years ago. Orthodox people need to be more open, and explain that they are the original Christian church. Instead, when you approach them, the attitude is more that it is a Christian ethnic cult that only those of that nationality can ever join. This is what I was raised to believe and basically told by Orthodox friends as far back as grammar school and I am in my fifties. I wish people who no longer want to be Catholic because of all of the abuses and nonagreement with an infallible pope, could be made to understand that Orthodox faith is Christian faith..the faith in Jesus Christ, not Russian or greek faith.
Most of Orthodoxy's converts come from Protestantism (as did I). Protestantism has THOUSANDS of divisions/sects which vary in practice and doctrine. Orthodoxy has UNITY of practice and doctrine across the churches of various countries. It is hypocritical for a Protestant to point a finger at Orthodoxy for disunity, and it is a great sin for an Orthodox to accept that spurious charge. Sure we have our little spats about territories, and we have our little differences in hymns, tones, and most revered saints--this is part of the richness of our faith and its ability to equally encompass people of all nations. America is an amalgamation of races and nations which is reflected in the variety of national churches that exist here. Calling this a great sin is overreach, and ungrateful in the extreme. God brought Orthodoxy to the Americas and maintains it through these ancient Patriarchates. Through this diversity, God has provided Americans with choice, and He puts a check on any one Patriarchate becoming the dictator--great blessings in this age of false ecumenism.
Glory to Jesus Christ! I've been saying this for close to 30 years now as well & it's something Frank Schaeffer & no doubt a whole lot of other converts have been pointing out as well, but so far, this message has been falling on deaf ears. If there has historically been issues with Jews & Gentiles in the same body, what hope is there for all of the national divisions - with new 'nations' insisting on having their own church almost daily. Deplorable indeed. And let's not forget those Orthodox who 'separate' from one another over the calendar issue.
I agree with this sentiment. I'm a convert to Orthodoxy, but my conversion was helped along by my partial familiarity with Orthodoxy as someone of Russian/Ukrainian heritage. I imagine the process of getting involved with the Church is often much more challenging to those who encounter a "Greek/Russian/Serbian etc. Orthodox Church" as an outsider to all of those ethnic/cultural groups.
Pray the LORD. FR. JOSIAH thank for you hard work may the LORD keep you . may the LORD give you wisdom. And keep the church with the spiritual word of the LORD . AMEN AMEN.
This is true and refreshing. Father talks about the problems that are taboo to speak of. We need unity within the Church. There shall be no division. Yes... I was a Latin that found my home in Orthodoxy. father couldn't be more right. Amen Father. Thank you!
I am thankful that when the Greek Church locked its doors in the face of social and governmental pressures in my area that the Russian Churches either stayed open or reopened quickly. Perhaps if we were all under one jurisdiction there would be more strength to oppose the forces that are trying to keep the Churches closed all together.
The problem is not so much with the authorities as from within. I remember a case in Canada where the canadian authorities were forced to give a fine to a Greek Orthodox Church because of some complaints made by some Greek ethnics.
You mean the law not the Church. If you break the law they come close down the Church, maybe fine you. How is this a good idea?! My Greek Orthodox Church has been holding in person services authorized by the health department most of this Covid period. The WHOLE Church is not shut down! You exaggerate! (My brother in California is clergy and they have services too).
You are exactly correct. I see much in Orthodoxy that is attractive and true and much that is missing or forgotten in the Catholic Church. But I also see a Protestant-style disunity that is holding back the Orthodox church from spreading its message and teaching its understanding of union with God. Here is where the Catholic Church hierarchy including the papacy would be useful to the Orthodox church.
Amen. And I'm thankful to be part of a parish with a priest who regularly speaks out against this, as well (and has a popular AF podcast to speak from -- Fr. Evan Armatas, host of Orthodoxy Live and Transforming Our Lives in Christ, speaks on this regularly).
I wholeheartedly agree with everything Father said. Prior to converting to Orthodoxy as an Evangelical Protestant, it was a huge turn-off for me, finding out that the Orthodox Church was no different from Protestant churches with its many divisions. When I brought this up, the reply was that it has always been this way, that this is the way it is, and it is better to have all these divisions. This is unacceptable. What is worse is the leaders of the various Orthodox jurisdictions seem to not care. The lay people are calling for unity, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
These my thoughts exactly. It's a great tragedy what the Ecumenical Patriarch has done. But also I think the response from Patriach Kirill isn't the best as it is the laity that suffer the most. I don't want to have to choose between a Greek or Rocor church. To me fighting over man made borders is to be used as a tool for the devil and has very little relevance down under. Nor should it affect me if we Christians practiced the idea of turning the other cheek for once IMHO. It's a great shame and a real tragedy that the Patriachs have become pawns of world political powers.
@@ICXC4033 Yes, the orthodox church is hard. If there hadn't been a Greek/English church I doubt I would be attending orthodoxy right now, probably Methodist as wesley was almost orthodox lite IMHO. We don't have an OCA in my country, but if we did I'd be prepared to drive an hour for it, in fact one young guy who is just getting baptised soon does just that, his parents drive him even though they are not are getting baptised themselves from what I gather. Ppl can appear cold at first in the orthodox church but there are protestant churches that are also like that too. But they'll eventually warm to you, that's what I've found anyway in my experience. I'd ask the priest in person if he could do catechism in person & if he refuses ask why and if there's someone who can (from even another parish maybe). There have been saints that have been catechised without baptism so dont worry about where you'll end up as long as you believe in & accept all the orthodox theology God will know you're heart is towards his teachings & not some liberal man made sinful version of him instead.
@@ICXC4033 But I also think it's commendable that you're going to all that effort to follow what you genuinely believe and know to be the full truth of the faith. God will see that & reward you for it I'm sure, look to God not to men for approval, focus God's acceptance instead. But I can also tell you that treatment ppl give you is not the orthodox way, we are responsible for each other's salvation as well. The orthodox faith should make its entry stringent but not totally cold/unaccepting, if they are there's something a bit wrong with that particular view of this IMHO.
@@ICXC4033 Yes Lewis and Ubi Petrus i have a huge amount of respect for. Even myself have been tempted to just go to my friends Methodist church because it's easier, but I know it wouldn't be the right reason to do so. But when we do things that are tough it builds character I guess.
@@ICXC4033 I’m in the DFW area too!! Try St Peters in Fort Worth, it’s Antiochan so entirely English and a very vibrant parish, almost all are converts! :)
Thank you for your honestly. Fr. Josiah, your videos and podcast have been a blessing to me on my journey into Orthodoxy. Bless you for doing the Lord's work and doing so with courage and boldness.
Fr. Josiah Trenham is so correct! Not only does this diocesan, ethnic, separation have to end on an ecclesiastical level, it also has to end on a lay level. Personally, these diocesan separations make no sense. Too many churches hold too tight to the "ethnic labels" of their churches. Not that this is inherently bad,, but this does, sadly, turn many away because they don't feel welcome. Evangelism is something we Orthodox could do much better at as well. Pray on this. Lord have mercy!
Very surprised by Fr Josiah’s comment, someone with whom I usually agree. In contrast in truth Abp Dmitri, Met Isaiah and Bp Basil unified and strengthened Pan Orthodox bonds in the Midwest jurisdictions and the resulting PanOrthodox unity was beautiful and the diversity within like different parts of the same body honoring one another and appreciating differences. I went round to the Antiochian Church and loved the people and different mode of Chant, to ROCOR and loved the gravity and the Greek for the brightByzantine, etc. To this day priests of all jurisdictions here may ask to be on the email lists of other parishes in different jurisdictions and stay in touch daily and there is a common PanOrthodox organization for good works and seminars which is another simple timely communication path. I am stunned that Fr Josiah would not have asked to be on the email list of the Church he loves and mentions. Or that he would have been refused if he had! Perhaps Texas and the midwest or the Heartland are truly friendlier than California?
Troon Rose We can appreciate differences while also being united. The indisputable FACT is that this situation of multiple bishops in a city/region all organized via their ethnic roots is completely uncanonical...ie it directly violates the guidelines set forth by the councils we claim to follow. America is a nation of immigrants which explains this phenomena in the past, but we can’t keep pretending that clinging to these jurisdictions is communicating unity to those looking at Orthodoxy and discerning if she is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Faith.
I agree and think this is a huge stumbling block for many who would otherwise be interested in the faith. It takes quite a bit of courage for someone to walk into a church they've never been inside on a Sunday morning, and even more so into one which appears as an ethnic enclave. Just the other day I was sharing my recent conversion with a friend, and the first thing he said was, "I thought that was for Russians."
Thank you, Fr. Trenham! I am an Orthodox inquirer and this was one of the first questions I had...is there a differences between Greek, Russian, and Antiochian Orthodoxy. It was a point I was breifly confused about, and I was unsure if different texts/practices were observed by these branches. Unity within God's Holy Church is surely His intention!
I'm two years late, but the Eastern Orthodox communion is organized into several regional churches, which are either autocephalous (Greek for "self-headed/governing") or lower-ranking autonomous church bodies unified in theology and worship. There are fourteen Orthodox churches that are generally accepted as “autocephalous,” which in Greek means “self-headed.” An autocephalous church possesses the right to resolve all internal problems on its own authority and the ability to choose its own bishops, including the Patriarch, Archbishop or Metropolitan who heads the church. While each autocephalous church acts independently, they all remain in full sacramental and canonical communion with one another. Today these autocephalous Orthodox churches include the four ancient Eastern Patriarchates (Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem), and ten other Orthodox churches that have emerged over the centuries in Russia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Cyprus, Greece, Poland, Albania, and the Czech and Slovak Republics. In other words, members of the aforementioned churches can take communion at any of the listed churches, i.e. if you're Greek Orthodox, you can take communion in the Russian Orthodox Church. Or if you're Antiochian Orthodox, you can take communion in the Serbian Orthodox Church, etc. The biggest difference is the language the services are conducted in. However, if you attend any of these churches in the U.S., there's a good chance services may be conducted partly in English. I hope this helps.
We are CHRISTIAN ORTHODOX first and foremost, and then if asked, I can specify whether Greek or Romanian depending of ones country origin. If not, as a convert I identify myself as a Christian Orthodox.
For many years, I assumed that if something was "Greek Orthodox", "Russian Orthodox", etc, that it was really meant for people of that cultural background only. This year, when I've looked into Orthodox Christianity more (I'm currently without a church, and was raised in the Evangelical Free Church), I've finally learned that those labels aren't supposed to matter so much...but the different cultures is absolutely something which previously had kept me from becoming more interested in Orthodoxy, and still does make me hesitant to want to become a part of those communities.
3:48 Reminds me of the hesitation I felt when I was going to visit a Macedonian Orthodox Church. I'm not Macedonian I thought to myself. Would people there think I'm lost? Reminded me of the diversity center at University during undergrad. There was the Pacific Islander center, African-American center, Latin American Center, Etc...I didn't want to be part of any of those because I felt it was self segregation because those groups hardly intermingled. I once went into one of the center's that did not match my ethnicity to use the printer, it felt like people were looking at me as if I was lost. Never went back. Thank you Fr. Josiah
You've perfectly expressed what has been bothering me immensely for a long time. However, good luck trying to express this on any Orthodox message board. Everyone likes to pretend there is no problem.
As a catechumen (for several years waiting in a parish that lacked the resources for my catechesis), I do not draw any distinction or division. I moved recently and went from a GOArch parish to an AOCANA parish. My parish is an interesting case study in this, because it is an incorporated former EOC parish, operated by AOCANA, but the cantor (son of the old Priest) is the head of the OCA Hermitage down the street from the Parish Church, and the metropolitans are in on this arrangement, and one of the deacons is from a Greek monastery. I am a bit concerned, and maybe I should ask the bishop when he visits next week, that the Hermitage to the south seeks to build a chapel despite the Parish Church being there rather than resolve the issue to unity at the level of this town.
Adding my voice to many here. I am an American of Northern European and Protestant descent. I have become interested in the Orthodox Church, and my initial feelings in my first encounters were of not belonging because I have no Greek blood or background. It's been frustrating and honestly a bit intimidating. Agree with the Father here that the faith would reach the hearts of Americans MUCH more easily as a unified American Orthodox Church. Or even just the "Orthodox Church" in America.
So sad and true. As a Romanian living in Romania, I wish our Patriarchy would encourage people in the USA to attend the Orthodox Church in America services, and collaborate with the OCA to find solutions for the recent immigrants who perhaps don't have very good English skills or need some help with transitioning to another type of service, or anything that they might have trouble adapting to. I'm sure they could find solutions - providing translations of liturgy, induction sessions, or whatever other help they might think of. We are organized by nation for various practical reasons, and for the same practical reasons it makes sense that the Orthodox Church in America should be the one to administer and serve the faith in the US. Having a division by nation in the world makes sense, having such divisions within ONE country makes zero sense.
Its something I've been wondering about and the sole thing that seems out of place to me for the last 8 months I've been going to church and reading. My girlfriends dad is a ROCOR priest. We just moved to a new city and I suggested a Greek church, you would've thought I'd suggested a mosque by her response! I can understand preferring one type of choir over another, but the Orthodox church, is the Orthodox church. I would LOVE to see unity in the church, the Orthodox church in America, needs to be the Orthodox church of America. If the Orthodox church in America is self governing, than it must be united.
I checked in the Philippines and three seperate Orthodox Churches have Parishes here: Russian, Antioch & Greek (through SE Asian Hong Kong). None are on Palawan Island where I am.
Thank you Fr. Josiah. Your absolutely right that Orthodox unity is our greatest challenge and opportunity. It is a sin and we need to repent and correct it. I suggest we have a national day and hour for prayer for Orthodox canonical unity in the USA. God bless you Father for being courageous for bringing this opportunity front and center. I pray god gives you the energy and will to make this unity happen! Michael Zelesnik
Although I disagree with Fr. Josiah on other issues, on this he has uncovered a festering wound that will not heal without exposure to the Light of the Spirit and abandoning of our preconceived beliefs that are rooted in the heresy of phyletism. Each ethnic Orthodox entity needs to integrate a humility rooted into the suffering servant "who, being in the form of God, (Phil. 2:6-7).
This message has only gained in importance over the past year. I am a convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy. I converted due to the influence of a Greek Orthodox Parish near my Church. In my parish the Pastor is not Greek, the Cantor is not Greek and most of the Parish Council and all the latest Converts are not Greek. The youth come to Church on holidays and special vacation. What is most of the time
Lord have mercy on us. I still believe that Jesus' prayer that we be one will be answered, one way or the other. I doubt any other religion has followers that have the capacity to be so candidly self-critiquing of it's institutions. That is a very good sign for Christianity.
Many Christians like myself who are looking to become a member of the Orthodox Church have trouble finding one in our communities that doesn't cater to one ethnic group. I live in a mid-size city that only has a Greek Orthodox Church and a Bulgarian Orthodox Church, that's it. I was raised a Lutheran but the church I grew up going to belonged to one of the three denominations that joined together to form the ELCA in 1987, which I do not consider a true Lutheran church. I believe many want the same thing I do, to find a good traditional denomination. After years of researching from time to time I finally decided on Eastern Orthodoxy. With the Covid-19 pandemic it doesn't seem possible to start the process until there is a treatment and/or vaccine. Anyway, thanks for posting the comments from Father Trenham. He's one of the ones I enjoy listening to. Watched it late yesterday evening.
I did... recover. Auckland 2003?? Went to a Coptic priest from Egypt. Radiation on me, physically weak, and exposed to demons. Got stronger and stronger ;;;) Repeated in Perth....
I feel like a complete outsider at orthodox churches not only because I’m African American but the whole culture is so different and how they speak different languages makes it pretty difficult. And in Protestant churches I feel more welcomed though I may not agree with the beliefs it’s nice to see people like me and other races ofc. They need to accept the fact that they’re in someone else’s country as well…and yeah we shouldn’t be divided just because we have different ethnic backgrounds
Interesting. I didn't know this. My major problems are 1) Orthodox churches are very spread apart. There are zero in my city, and I would be expected to travel quite far to get to the nearest one. 2) No pews. Americans have a strong aversion to standing for long periods.
Fr is totally correct in what he is saying. As a Catholic, I am a big fan of TH-camr site Bible Illustrated Hands. Boyan is a reader and adherent with the Serbian Orthodox Church , but constantly speaks about the Russian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Greek orthodoxy as adversaries... as those people...
You should not pay attention to him to be honest, most I've talked to consider him a "weirdo" to say the least and it sounds like he's just involving his politics too much. Realistically the only real issue present is with Russia and Greece/Constantinople over the Ukrainian schismatic church.
I agree with you. We must be united. As for the Greek Orthodox though and so on, I do not think it was used to as a separation fact but rather as to which Church I.e. Patriarch he/she "belongs" to. Growing up I never felt that Russian Orthodox are different than us, it just meant that they are most likely Russians. In today's world though where globalization wants to rule supreme and circular life intrudes into religion I can see that this can cause confusion to the new convert. I for one feel as brother with all Orthodox people. The bigger issue is the "fight" between the heads of the Church. You should not have them. It's not an earthly power struggle is it? We do not want to become Catholics I.e. the power hungry Pope and the schism. The ones that want to destroy our Church put labels like fundamentalists or traditionalists but the truth is one. Do not yield to circular world. You cannot be homosexual and Christian for example, you cannot give your church buildings, the house of God to muslims to perform their service as their god is not our God hence you are defiling the sanctum. Etc etc.
I am having a protestant basically all my life start I got a Baptist by then converted to a Penecostal and you were saying in this video that you were grieved by the division in the Orthodox Church but from what I have learned whether you’re Russian or Greek or Serbian, you’re basically have the same belief it’s like when I was a Penecostal I was assembly of God but if I was visiting a foursquare church, there is very little difference with Anyh so I don’t see why there is a big deal when you believe the same thing maybe I’m over simplifying it I want to find a way to get to Orthodox Church everything that I have heard so far I like I’m even gotten to the point of seeing why Marie is so elevated and praying to the Saints I already believe in all the other doctrines. I haven’t heard anything other than those two things that I would’ve disagreed with before I want to find a way to get to it Orthodox Church, I guess all I’m saying is that the differences and disagreements would not be a hindrance to me I also have come to the point where is she white tradition and teachings of the father is is elevated so high. I really hope I get a chance to get to an Orthodox church, I really think I could find a home there if you’re interested why am I even was looking I had a stroke and I was in a nursing home for a while. I’m now in assisted-living I’m trying to find a way out but nobody from my church bothered to come and see me and I got disillusioned and I know this is gonna sound weird to a Orthodox but I felt like God spoke to me and said look at orthodoxy and really that is not even been on my radar even in Bible school, and I just started investigating orthodoxy and I like what I hear should I just go to the nearest orthodox church near me and how do I know what one is a good Orthodox Church and what one is not, I hope I didn’t get too windy with my message. God bless you.
The jurisdictional divide is a grave sin that is not necessary in the US. Our bishops need to get over their petty arguments and become the spiritual leaders the church needs, especially right now. If they don’t wake up I fear they are carving their way into the lake of fire and dragging us the faithful down with them
I have been open to conversion and learning more, even spoke with a Coptic priest about some of my questions. It was great and while I have more to study first I have been extremely put off by the desire to keep things ethnocentric and the confusion that causes. Additionally, I saw a short videos on YT from a major orthodox YTer saying to not try and convert people to the orthodox faith. Simply answer their questions and if they want to join that is fine but focus on your own inner life and family. That is such a disgusting view when you think of the consequences and was horribly off putting. I am still studying but this has certainly pushed me away seeing that I am potentially just seen as an outsider especially when it comes to cultural preservation and I am not any of the ethnicities of the churches nearby.
It is misleading reason in my understanding. I am Polish/Russian generally speaking. Born into Orthodox family and many of us experience respect as well as liking toward unique Irish or German roots within the inner make of few parishioners that happen to join our parish. St. Patrick especially is one of my beloved Saints as celebrated by many Orthodox much more then just a name in a calendar. And our German parishioners often are so dedicated in their faith the want to do best of it.
I’m not Orthodox but I’m very curious about the Orthodox faith and I didn’t know there was that much division. I hope that changes, I think the Orthodox Church having a bigger presence in the US could be good for the county’s soul.
There is not a division in doctrines, worship just a multi cultural variety because Orthodoxy was brought to America by different national minorities Greek, Russian, Romanians who used to meet their own traditionsl colour but not different faith.. All of them are Orthodox
I am NOT being sarcastic here, but as an educator, it looks like you guys need to create some Google Groups to keep larger communities in touch with the touch of a button. I am an American who was baptized in a Russian Orthodox Church in Yalta, Crimea and I do not divide myself from other Orthodox, I don't engage with Catholics in debate, and I consider evangelicals (trinitarian) my brothers and sisters in Christ. Christ said that if they are not against us, they are with us.
You are a great priest. The refuge is the creed. When you say I believe those 2 words makes us one . It’s personal but yet makes us one . So I respect your thoughts however , “ what ever Orthodox Church you are worshipping in the Bishop name or Greek ,Serbian, or OCA or whatever
My 2 cents in a most touchy issue. Whenever this is brought up, stone throwing seems to start, and for me, a lot of this goes back 100 years. Calendar 'adjustment'. Right now, some are fasting, some are done. It so reminds me of the Pascha dispute of Victor's time, which was finally ended by a non baptized Emperor. Maybe we should go all of the way back to then? Maybe I am heretical in some way, but I observe that very old way for myself, and don't share unless asked. It grieves me that we don't all observe The Nativity on the same day, and this is now over 100 years old. Where did this come from? What is coming from this 'jurisdiction' now with candle services with actual heretics at the Vatican? Yes, I am an Old Calendar person. I tolerate this division, but I see no reason, except secular partying, that promotes it. It kind of forces people to be 'in the world' in some way, IMHO. Tomorrow is the Feast of The Nativity for The Baptist -- for some! But it was two weeks ago for others. No wonder there is division. Love to All!
Thank God that, despite many churches having ethnic adjectives (looking at the Greeks), there are many Orthodox parishes out there who don't care about ethnicity and are welcoming to newcomers. The parishes that stay in their little ethnic bubbles and refuse to expand will remain tiny while the Orthodox parishes that follow God's commandment to welcome all will continue to expand and grow
I think the Antiochians and OCA are best positioned to do this, if they can get the EP to instruct its jurisdictions to follow their lead. North America needs a single autocephalous Patriarchate.
📙 FREE eBOOK on the wisdom of modern Orthodox Christian elders:
social.protectingveil.com/freebook1
This is precisely why I simply tell other that I am "Orthodox" with no prefix. This was amazing as always, father!
Fr. I believe Christ told us to look at the log in your eye before your cast judgement on your sisters and brothers. Yes this is said, bu there is a Autocephlous Church in America, The Orthodox Church in America. Unlike the other jurisdictions is not balled with an Ethic Adjective such as your parish in California Antiochian which your bishops have now proclaimed a need to emphasize an antiochian identity. Unity will begin at the local level, when will you join the OCA and give up your ethic adjective. The OCA has monasteries, seminaries, local saints and local elected bishops born in the United States, not appointed by a foreign synod, and born in a foreign country. If fact the Primate is born in America, your Met is born where? I guess you were speaking to your parish and bishops. Also Evangelical Christians are the most divided without any understanding of a Ignatius ecclesiology. Due they not have a independent parish ecclesiology that is an affiliation with the greater evangelical movement? I guess the LBGT issue is not longer vogue for you.
Yeah I have had to explain that many times. And then someone comes along and tells them I'm 'blank' Orthodox and ruins everything I tried to fix.
voiceofreason I agree, as I thought that Father was part of American Orthodox Church, but it seems he is also part of Antiochian Orthodox Church. This is ok, and any Orthodox believer can pray and be part of any other recognized Orthodox church in the world. On the other hand on the canonical level, I believe in order to become national church of America, OCA needs to pass trough the steps to be recognized by all other national Orthodox Churches to become as well national church of America (USA), and then be able to choose their Patriarch and invite other Orthodox brothers to become united in American Orthodox Church.
I am not living in American. But I am so dreadfully surprised when I hear some converts stating: I am (ethnicity)-orthodox. In most case ethnicity is replaced by Russian-, then in lesser cases Greek-... Philetism from the priests that conducted them to Orthodoxy during conversion. I would understand to say I attend a (ethnicity)-orthodox church, this is still OK.
me too
From Serbian Orthodox: We are all one! I think that America needs American Orthodox Church with American Patriarch who knows american mental code and we all other Orthodox need to help to you. Glory to Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Amen.
I agree with you. I think that it is pretty problematic the strong ethnic roots Orthodox Churches insist to have in non-Orthodox countries. It is hard to bring foreigners to the Church as long as it is this strong division between the ethnic roots of each Church.
M M I agree. All of us born in America need to remember that we are American. Our ancestors may have immigrated from somewhere in Europe or Russia, etc, but WE ARE AMERICANS. ☦️
It's up to the lay people to organize and show thr bishops this is what the people desire.
I agree, but In Orthodoxy this question is not the easy one. Even Latin churches tend to be ethnic depending on the area that they cover. In Orthodoxy to become recognized national church (in this case American Orthodox), there are steps to receive autocephaly from the church that you belong to in the beginning. I am not sure under which jurisdiction and blessing American Orthodox Church get the blessing, but I assume is from Constantinople Ecumenical Patriarchy. When American Orthodox church is ready they can issue the independent status for American Orthodox Church to become the sister church and have right to elect their first Patriarch. As it is now situation, Orthodoxy would not exist in America if there were no believers from recognized Orthodox Churches that came to new land (Usa), and they started their churches with lot of difficulties but they succeeded. Now, after American Orthodox Church become fully independent it will get the right to ask and people from other Orthodox denominations will in majority accept this as their national church.
@@ПредрагКосанчић I agree with both you and MM. As a Serbian Orthodox who lives in Serbia, I'm well aware of the meaning that S.O.C. has for our people and our nation. And I support it's role outside of Serbian lands, to keeping us unite with our diaspora. But, there has to be some measure. I do not expect that third or fourth generation of our diaspora (except for really rare cases) can keep the Serbian national feeling the way it is connected to reality. Reality is that they, in 99% of cases, do not even speak Serbian. Thus, in short, I support the mission of SOC abroad, but in countries like America the obvious emphasis should be on domestic national Orthodox church, like Orthodox church in America. So I think the answer should be somewhere in that direction, that it should be the "main" church in USA, with other national churches connected closely to it. They should serve as a connection of American born Orthodox believers with Orthodox people who came from other traditions, as well as keepers of connection of the diasporas with their native lands. I know this sounds somewhat complex, and maybe not so feasible knowing the nature of human relations, but I think this is the best and the most realistic way the things should develop with Orthodoxy in USA. I agree with father Josiah, this is the moment for Orthodoxy in the West, because the fall of other Christian denomination is really tremendous, and there are so many people looking for meaning and connection to the faith.
Fr. Josiah Trenham is my favourite priest. Greetings from Australia.
SLVBULL Try Fr Peter Heers on Orthodox Ethos Channel
Mine too
Have you also heard of your Australian Father Cosmas on Orthodox Talks? He is very, very informative and goes into depth.
@@argyroharitakis6176 Kosmas is the best. A true hieromonk
They're Buds.
Archbishop Dmitri of blessed memory worked very hard to unify orthodoxy in the south. His funeral was an excellent example of the work he had done as several churches were in attendance.
Wow. This honest and powerful answer is courageous.
Fr. Trenham. Though I agree that the Orthodox need to unite for several reasons, I believe the biggest challenge for the Orthodox is having courage facing the secular world that is encroaching upon our faith. Our local Orthodox divisions have varied on the lock down from completely locked down to almost completely open. But they do need to unite for the sake of advocacy.
That describes Christianity in general. Christians as a whole need to unite against secularism and the attacks against the Church regardless whether one is Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox.
I’m searching the Orthodox Church for that very reason, I want the non consumerism Church.
The churches are too infiltrated.
Division in the Church is demonic.
I agree with this message.
Orthodox Unite. Look at the Roman Catholic is infiltrated by apostate.
Synagogue infiltrated by Marxist.
Herman - I would also like to suggest that you bring more of our Hierarchy onto your channel and have them explain how we get to unity. This could be our biggest opportunity if we fix this!
Which Herman are you addressing this comment to?
@@newlin83 Hi James and thank you for reaching out. Let’s chat. Please call me at +17193516084. Looking forward to chatting with you. Michael Z
Hi Michael! This is a great idea...thank you...I'll see what I can do!
Honestly, for a year now I've felt a desire to return to the Church, but not the Protestant Churches I knew growing up. I've had an inexplicable draw towards Orthodoxy ever since I found out about it. I remember driving past some of the Greek Orthodox churches when I was a teenager and wondering about them but never gave them much thought beyond that instant.
I think people like myself are craving meaning, order and structure as much as they are craving a spiritual life in Christ. More over, Orthodoxy has none of the baggage associated with Protestantism or Catholicism.
I was raised protestant.
I became a catechumen last year and never looked back.
I believe that this is the Church founded by Christ and His apostles.
Andrew, Saint Andrew was the first called. Christ is calling you to his Holy Church. Follow his guide! God bless.
Really, "non of the baggage" 😆, don't start with blinders son, wake up and smell reality, didn't you listen to this guy in the video, he is devastated at the "baggage", and that is just the drop in the gigantic bucket. Don't get fooled by the pagan rituals and fancy building with idols and icons. Don't get sucked into goddess worship and pagan cultish rituals and secret mystical rites.
@@truthdefenders- Yes, baggage.
It has plenty of baggage. You don't know history at all then.
Preach Father!!! As a catechumen it is an issue for me, but I’m leaving Episcopalianism which is in shambles so there’s that.
Tom, which Orthodox jurisdiction will you be a part of?
I was an Episcopalian/Anglican for 4 decades. I was very active in the church. I served in every capacity a layman was allowed to. My wife and I converted to the Orthodox Church 8 years ago. Our only regret is we didn't do it much, much sooner.
@@forrestb1165 Episcopalian for 60 years, yes I've waited far too long. My parish is Antiochian, but the real answer is that I'm just Orthodox.
Forrest B
Did you consider Western Orthodoxy?
Tom Andrew
Maybe one solution could be to have the Bishop of each city be on a Rite rotation, if he has multiple rites.
When a bishop goes into repose, or has to be replaced for any number of reasons, a bishop from a different rite has to be selected. When he eventually reposes, than the next with be from the third, then fourth, and so on, until there had been a bishop representing every rite in that city, and then start over again. He would also have priests and deacons representing each rite on his staff.
@@tomandrew6586 You have a good perspective. Be an Orthodox Christian. Ignore the "ethnic" trivialities.
Truth ! Father as a catechumen who lives in a smaller community. I found it very difficult to find a parish. Three cities in my area are only supported by a revolving door of changing diocese. I bless those fathers that travel to minister when they can. I travel 240 miles twice a week and am grateful that the Greek Orthodox in Las Vegas ( St John the Baptist)has lovingly embraced me. I have received most of my teachings through you and others on AFR, and PV like Fr Hopko. This division, I humbly believe has restricted brothers and sisters to find salvation in towns and cities with populations under 50,000. (how I distress that my loving children and grandchildren in Idaho Falls) can not receive our Lord through Church. Thank you for your prayers and blessings for us "out in the desert.
Time in The Church runs slowly... much slower than outside of it. This situation is inherited due to the historical immigration from the Orthodox lands. It can't be solved over night especially if one jurisdiction claims rights over others. Pray to God that solution is found.!
The solution is walking in the spirit. Such errors are the result of falling into human wisdom and reveals a lack of true consecration.
As a Greek, I 'd like to set forth my view on the subject.
Being independent, is a core value of the ancient Greek spirit.
As the Greeks invitably became the first European Christians, gradually formed the Church that has become the initial Orthodox Church, that created all the other Orthodox churches in other cultures.
The Greeks never tried to impose their culture on others. This is key to Greek mindset, and philosophy.
They just carried their manners wherever they went, and people around them appreciated their culture and followed or copied.
In all the colonies they created long before Christ, they never tried to convert by force the local population. I do not know of any testament against that.
And the Romans came and conquered, and turned Greek eventually, so much.
That Greek population, created the initial Orthodox church, incorporating values as this, of their pre-Christian past, as the Greek version of Christianity.
It is natural, as the Germans eventually created their version of Christianity accomodating their culture, the English also.
And when Greeks brought Christianity in Ethiopia, they even created icons with Black Jesus, in order to make the faith more relevant to the locals.
After that, they brought Orthodoxy in Eastern Europe, in non Greek speaking nations.
Again, they never tried to impose their language and culture on them, and even created an alphabet for them.
Following the unmistakable laws of nature that made the Greek culture and philosophy so acceptable and eternal around the world, Greeks understood that local non Greek speakers would eventually create their version of Orthodoxy as well, and even enabled them to do so.
This is the difference of Greeks vs barbarians...
Orthodoxy vs globalist Catholicism, Islam, or any other rite that aims to grow globally under a single power center.
Greeks historically focused to conquer the spirit of people, not the people themselves.
So much Orthodoxy, the Church they initially created.
The Orthodox rite, has also a long tradition of respecting independence of local Churches.
In stark contrast to the Catholic church.
We should not try to become like the Catholic Church, in case you imply something like that.
In that respect, I agree with the comment of the Serbian brother here.
You should aim to create an independent American Orthodox Church, to accomodate the needs of all American Orthodox brothers, no matter their ethnic background.
This American Orthodox Church should of course respect and acknowledge the historic primacy of the Constantinople Patriarchate, but be independent, as all other Patriarchates are, and do.
It was evolutionally unavoidable for America to pass the stage of ethnic and fragmented Orthodoxy, but I think that the time has come for all, to accept the creation of the independent American Orthodox church...
This will also solve the problem of Russia trying to influence the Orthodox world for you Americans.
Having secret services and diplomacy trying to divide Orthodoxy between Russian influenced Orthodox churches and all the rest, will not do the trick...
The aim should be for local/national Orthodox churches to be in full communion.
Not to create one global Church...
This is not natural. This is not Greek...
Nevertheless, in case you do not know, for a Greek, Greece, is the whole universe...
@@pordonjetersonsee I feel the opposite way. I only like listening to the Byzantine style liturgy
Kudos Father Josiah! As an Orthodox Convert for 16 years, I could not agree more with your words. Our problem is bishops (old men) fighting over power and jurisdictions. It is so very sad.
You are exactly right! I am just getting into the faith now, and the sorting through of all the divisions here in the US was discouraging. Fortunately, I am determined , but many might be more easily turned off by this. Lord have mercy!! Thanks for sharing this with us.
go to as many different churches as you can; you will know when you hit the right one!
trust me, I am a stranger on the internet :)
The "divisions" are discouraging, but I really like that America has many different Orthodox traditions. I attend an OCA church were Greek, Russian, Antiochian, Romanian, and Bulgarian Orthodox Christians all regularly attend or have at least visited. Most of our church (including me) are converts though. And I always enjoy attending all of the churches I mentioned above when i have the opportunity. I like meeting new people and seeing how subtle differences in tradition or different chanting styles and even just hearing different languages can be very inspiring to me. Unfortunately, in some cases there are some of those churches they can be more divisive towards one another. And in some cases if you are not from a particular church then people from there will not want to converse with you. But mostly I have had pretty positive experiences in visiting different Orthodox churches and going to the coffee hour or fellowship meal afterwards. its usually really fun.
@@davidwatts3048 I do believe I hit the right one already! But I do plan on visiting many on my travels...
@@joachimjustinmorgan4851 I live in the Dallas metroplex. There aren't many orthodox churches, but there is an abundance of Catholic and Protestant churches. The fact that the Orthodox are building few churches and so spread out, and yet they still give priority to their own ethnicity instead of to the country they decided to live in, when they even are able to speak English, is a terrible obstacle for me. It also happens that the most beautiful Orthodox church anywhere near me is Greek. If I want to go to "Orthodox Church in America" that isn't extremely tiny, I have to drive all the way to downtown Dallas, for 30 minutes. So I've gone to the Greek one instead, and it makes no sense that they use English, but then for some parts of the liturgy, nope, you've got to be Greek, as you see people do the sign of the cross to something I can't even understand. I've gone there four times and nobody has said hi to me, I thought they'd be happy a 16 year old is interested in their faith. Nobody there that I can be friends with, I feel invisible, and my parents don't agree with the Orthodox so I just go there by myself. So much for the Church will be a family to me. I feel like I am being treated as some kind of intruder and disrupter for not knowing every practice I'm supposed to do during the service when I go there to learn, and I don't know if every Orthodox church is like this, but the catechumen class is something you must join right as it starts, and there is only one class that goes on for 6 months, so I haven't been allowed to learn anything yet, I'm just supposed to sit there, learn nothing as I listen to what sounds like gibberish to me. And, the class has to be on zoom because of "Covid" after I said I wanted to be taught in person, at the same time you drink out of the same cup because God will protect us? All that while I receive conflicting views on my own eternal salvation, am I supposed to believe I am damned to eternal fire currently before I simply have the right to learn anything? I guess they don't care if I die in a car crash on the long drive to any of their churches, and was my whole life a lie, the Holy Spirit indwelling me, was that fake, and do I get Baptized or just Chrismated? If only Chrismated, was my Baptism in a Baptist Church valid, and when I pray to Jesus do I pray as a heathen or a believer, apart from his body or not? Good Lord the struggle to put in effort into this mess. At this point, even though I logically believe that Orthodoxy is true from what I see, my experience and everything else is telling me I should go and act like I believe Vatican 2, Vatican 1 and the Council of Trent at the same time in a Catholic Church, or heck, maybe even go back to a Baptist Church... It's really depressing how hard it is, and I don't believe you should be adding to it with prioritizing your ethnic identity in American if you really care for us.
@@ICXC4033 I can’t believe that you have the audacity to complain about driving 30 minutes to Church. Or that you have a Greek Church near your house you could attend. I know Turkish Christians that drive 4 hours on Saturday night and get a hotel room so they can go to church on Sunday. There are many simple solutions to your complaint, but your “problem,” is one that is spiritual in nature. If you really want advice, I suggest you alternate driving 30 minutes to the OCA Church one week and attending the Greek Church the next week. Try to overcome the passion of pride you have against these people, attend confession with a priest snd bring all these things you have shared with me up. I feel like the things you shared are more appropriate to confess as your own sins rather than try to justify.
This type of thing reminds me of my family. I wasn't told that my brother had died for 10 years! I found out by accident when talking to one of my aunts. Everybody just assumed that I knew or was told. The church needs more cohesiveness, and I'm not even Orthodox yet. I was brought to it by a year and have an interest in monasticism. Even as a non-member yet, I still see his point. May God guide the leadership and bring peace to this issue.
Let us as The Church pray for unity daily. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us.
The unity of the Orth Churches could certainly bring more catechumens who are sitting on the sidelines waiting, and also save denominations that are in serious trouble and searching. People would be reluctant to coming to the Orth Church if they have just come from or are stuck in a denomination which already suffers from divisions, quarrels and corruption to top it off. Yes, we need to show as true Christians, Orthodoxy has the love of a true Christian and come together. Language is the issue as I see it and there is a balancing act in some parishes to accommodate both and yet many of the people attending now, only speak one language - English. ?? We need your help Fr Josiah....God bless!
I agree entirely. I have had this argument for over 20 years myself.
Thank you Fr Josiah for calling it out. It’s time.
The fractured orthodox nationalities in the west makes it SO HARD for native converts. I was so close to choosing catholic on that issue and I know many who have made that choice just because it’s easier! Can you believe it’s easier to convert to a church of pedophiles rather than our orthodoxy!!? And yet if anyone says “why can’t we have an American/British/french patriarch?” WE are accused of nationalism!
“Church of pedophiles” and what is the Orthodox Church, the church of state sponsored corruption?
I feel like a complete outsider at orthodox not only because I’m African American but the whole culture is so different and how they speak different languages makes it pretty difficult. And in Protestant churches I feel more welcomed though I may not agree with the beliefs it’s nice to see people like me and other races ofc
This needed to be said ! Thank You Father Josiah ☦🙏
Fr. Trenham spittin' fire! Go!
I don’t concern myself with the unity of the church because I’m too busy trying to improve my unity with Christ. In my opinion this should come first, worry about the “politics” never.
this x 1000!
your own salvation is mission #1
everything else in the world and in the church is secondary
The problem with that way of thinking is that the Lord Jesus Christ gave us two commandments to follow: Love of God AND Love of Neighbor. He did not give these commandments one after the other but together, to be lived at the same time. We live not only to love God but also to love our neighbor. We are called to live NOT outside the world but IN the world.
I think you're right. We should mostly leave these issues to the hierarchy and clergy to work out - though there's nothing wrong with putting a little pressure on them to let them know we are interested in unity :)
@@titob.yotokojr.9337 Great words. Since we are laypeople and we can't do much do help this ecclesiastical mess, we should do what we can and set an example within ourselves of a model of Orthodox unity. Doing thing such as praying for the Church and her hierarchs, primarily calling ourselves Orthodox Christians and with ethnicity being a little side note, and welcoming each and every person who is interested into the Church, as Christ would.
God bless you Fr. Trenham. May God bless us with unity through the Holy Spirit. Let us be one of the sources of bridge building and community connections throughout the Church, our Cities, States, Country and throughout the world. One of the most impactful teachings I have growing up in the Church is how welcoming our culture is to visitors. We being just as curious about them as they are of us without feeling pressure or obligated to convert them. I believe God converts us, even those of us born into the faith.
Thank you Father for addressing the Elephant in the Room!
How do we change this? Orthodoxy needs to spread in America.
I’m a “cradle Orthodox”, as they say. I grew up in a steel town with a Russian, a Greek and a Serbian Church. I was very young when the autocephalous OCA came into existence. At that time all services were English with some special things like Paschal greetings in Church Slavonic, English, etc. I was mystified why the Serbian and Greek churches did not join with us because it makes such complete sense. I was told that each wanted to keep their familiar ethnicity. At that time, all churches actually had some members who were from the “old country.” There really were no converts to the faith at that time except for those who married into the Church, and I understand why. We are all Americans and it is time for all of us to be one Orthodox Church. I have lived in several cities since that time. In Dallas we joined the Antiochian Orthodox Church because the Russian Orthodox Church was for the current Russian immigrants and no English was spoken. We attended liturgy there once and no one even spoke to us. I’m in Florida now and there in no OCA church near me, but we do have a Greek, a Coptic and an Antiochian Church, We go to the Antiochian Church which has many converts from various Protestant backgrounds. Our Orthodox members are Greek, Russian, etc, but all services are in English and everyone is welcome here. We enjoy visitors to our church. We have an ethnic food festival every year where wonderful foods from our different backgrounds are served. It’s very popular in our local community as well.
I agree that if all the ethnic Orthodox churches would combine, we could make a much bigger impact and I’m sure would have even more converts. We are called to let others know about Christ’s Holy Orthodox Church. We must never let ethnicity divide us. There is strength in unity. Fr. Trenham, is there any progress being made in this regard? ☦️
Any attempt to create a "united" Church in the US would immediately come under the influence of the CIA. This is America, remember. Look what the American influence along with the Phanar did in Ukraine a couple years ago - created a schismatic body. I think the status quo is better than what would happen - a pseudo-church which would have bishops directly controlled by the US government, all of them Masons, and appointed by the CIA. Before too long they would be promoting gay marriage and false union with Rome. This (state interference) is why the other Churches here never joined with the OCA - the OCA received their "autocephaly" from the KGB (of which, in 1970, the Moscow Patriarchate was just a part of). No one wanted anything to do with the OCA for decades because of this, mainly, the Serbs and ROCOR.
Now, hypothetically, would the "united American Orthodox Church" use the new, or Orthodox calendar? What about liturgical practices? What about pews? What about receiving grants and foundation money from "charities" and NGOs like the Luce Foundation? What about ecumenism? ROCOR will not submit to this, ever. The Antiochians already said several years ago that they would never want to be separated from their Patriarch. The Greeks are in communion with schismatics in Ukraine. It's a non-issue. There will never be an American Orthodox Church - I wish people would stop talking about it as if it could ever happen. It won't. We're better off the way we are.
77msHelen - as you are aware, us Catholic had this problem of ethnic division (but far less severe). My current catholic church, by looking into its founding history had large Portuguese and Italian Catholics bunched together. Silly, but Portuguese split off to build own church.... 40 years later.. the Portuguese Catholic Church is almost empty ... serving old ladies .. with old priest . My own parish .. the Italians have mostly all disappeared leaving a diverse mix of parishioners. The priests are from India ... bringing pictures of their Indian saints ...
THIS IS THE ORTHODOX MOMENT: All of the former Episcopalians, and other Protestant groups who have left churches that are no longer Biblical are desperate for a Biblical church. This is the time to , as the Bible says, "Ask for the ancient paths; ask where the good way is, and walk in it" . This statement alone drew me to Orthodoxy once I understood what it truly was: the 2,000 year old church of Christ, not a bunch of ethnic cults that keep to themselves!
This is so very true; although I grew up Episcopalian, I lived in an ethnically diverse area. I had many friends who were Russian, Yugoslavian, etc. who were Orthodox. All we knew was that their cross was different, and they celebrated holidays on a different day. When I would ask my friends about this, the impression I always was given was that you had to be Russian to go to Russian Orthodox church, and the Eastern Orthodox people were also divided by nationality. My sister broke her engagement to an eastern Orthodox boy whose parents wouldn't accept her because she was not the right nationality. The thing is, upon investigation, our beliefs were really the same as the Orthodox. If we had understood that, if we had been invited to go, we probably would have converted to Orthodox 30 years ago.
Orthodox people need to be more open, and explain that they are the original Christian church. Instead, when you approach them, the attitude is more that it is a Christian ethnic cult that only those of that nationality can ever join. This is what I was raised to believe and basically told by Orthodox friends as far back as grammar school and I am in my fifties. I wish people who no longer want to be Catholic because of all of the abuses and nonagreement with an infallible pope, could be made to understand that Orthodox faith is Christian faith..the faith in Jesus Christ, not Russian or greek faith.
Most of Orthodoxy's converts come from Protestantism (as did I). Protestantism has THOUSANDS of divisions/sects which vary in practice and doctrine. Orthodoxy has UNITY of practice and doctrine across the churches of various countries. It is hypocritical for a Protestant to point a finger at Orthodoxy for disunity, and it is a great sin for an Orthodox to accept that spurious charge. Sure we have our little spats about territories, and we have our little differences in hymns, tones, and most revered saints--this is part of the richness of our faith and its ability to equally encompass people of all nations. America is an amalgamation of races and nations which is reflected in the variety of national churches that exist here. Calling this a great sin is overreach, and ungrateful in the extreme. God brought Orthodoxy to the Americas and maintains it through these ancient Patriarchates. Through this diversity, God has provided Americans with choice, and He puts a check on any one Patriarchate becoming the dictator--great blessings in this age of false ecumenism.
Use your nationally known platform Father..just like this. Combine with others like you and let's get this drive to unity done in our lifetime!
Absolutely agree! This has got to stop. Love you Father Josiah! ❤️
I'm just a regular believer (no special denomination) and it seems to me like you love Christ, so I am for you.
Glory to Jesus Christ! I've been saying this for close to 30 years now as well & it's something Frank Schaeffer & no doubt a whole lot of other converts have been pointing out as well, but so far, this message has been falling on deaf ears. If there has historically been issues with Jews & Gentiles in the same body, what hope is there for all of the national divisions - with new 'nations' insisting on having their own church almost daily. Deplorable indeed. And let's not forget those Orthodox who 'separate' from one another over the calendar issue.
I agree with this sentiment. I'm a convert to Orthodoxy, but my conversion was helped along by my partial familiarity with Orthodoxy as someone of Russian/Ukrainian heritage. I imagine the process of getting involved with the Church is often much more challenging to those who encounter a "Greek/Russian/Serbian etc. Orthodox Church" as an outsider to all of those ethnic/cultural groups.
Thank you FrJosigh for calling it out. It’s time
Pray the LORD. FR. JOSIAH thank for you hard work may the LORD keep you . may the LORD give you wisdom. And keep the church with the spiritual word of the LORD . AMEN AMEN.
This was one of my biggest problems when considering Orthodoxy.
This is true and refreshing. Father talks about the problems that are taboo to speak of. We need unity within the Church. There shall be no division. Yes... I was a Latin that found my home in Orthodoxy. father couldn't be more right. Amen Father. Thank you!
God have mercy on us!❤
I am thankful that when the Greek Church locked its doors in the face of social and governmental pressures in my area that the Russian Churches either stayed open or reopened quickly. Perhaps if we were all under one jurisdiction there would be more strength to oppose the forces that are trying to keep the Churches closed all together.
The problem is not so much with the authorities as from within. I remember a case in Canada where the canadian authorities were forced to give a fine to a Greek Orthodox Church because of some complaints made by some Greek ethnics.
You mean the law not the Church. If you break the law they come close down the Church, maybe fine you.
How is this a good idea?!
My Greek Orthodox Church has been holding in person services authorized by the health department most of this Covid period. The WHOLE Church is not shut down! You exaggerate! (My brother in California is clergy and they have services too).
You are exactly correct. I see much in Orthodoxy that is attractive and true and much that is missing or forgotten in the Catholic Church. But I also see a Protestant-style disunity that is holding back the Orthodox church from spreading its message and teaching its understanding of union with God. Here is where the Catholic Church hierarchy including the papacy would be useful to the Orthodox church.
Amen. And I'm thankful to be part of a parish with a priest who regularly speaks out against this, as well (and has a popular AF podcast to speak from -- Fr. Evan Armatas, host of Orthodoxy Live and Transforming Our Lives in Christ, speaks on this regularly).
I wholeheartedly agree with everything Father said. Prior to converting to Orthodoxy as an Evangelical Protestant, it was a huge turn-off for me, finding out that the Orthodox Church was no different from Protestant churches with its many divisions. When I brought this up, the reply was that it has always been this way, that this is the way it is, and it is better to have all these divisions. This is unacceptable. What is worse is the leaders of the various Orthodox jurisdictions seem to not care. The lay people are calling for unity, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
These my thoughts exactly. It's a great tragedy what the Ecumenical Patriarch has done. But also I think the response from Patriach Kirill isn't the best as it is the laity that suffer the most. I don't want to have to choose between a Greek or Rocor church. To me fighting over man made borders is to be used as a tool for the devil and has very little relevance down under. Nor should it affect me if we Christians practiced the idea of turning the other cheek for once IMHO. It's a great shame and a real tragedy that the Patriachs have become pawns of world political powers.
@@ICXC4033
Yes, the orthodox church is hard. If there hadn't been a Greek/English church I doubt I would be attending orthodoxy right now, probably Methodist as wesley was almost orthodox lite IMHO. We don't have an OCA in my country, but if we did I'd be prepared to drive an hour for it, in fact one young guy who is just getting baptised soon does just that, his parents drive him even though they are not are getting baptised themselves from what I gather.
Ppl can appear cold at first in the orthodox church but there are protestant churches that are also like that too. But they'll eventually warm to you, that's what I've found anyway in my experience.
I'd ask the priest in person if he could do catechism in person & if he refuses ask why and if there's someone who can (from even another parish maybe).
There have been saints that have been catechised without baptism so dont worry about where you'll end up as long as you believe in & accept all the orthodox theology God will know you're heart is towards his teachings & not some liberal man made sinful version of him instead.
@@ICXC4033
But I also think it's commendable that you're going to all that effort to follow what you genuinely believe and know to be the full truth of the faith. God will see that & reward you for it I'm sure, look to God not to men for approval, focus God's acceptance instead. But I can also tell you that treatment ppl give you is not the orthodox way, we are responsible for each other's salvation as well. The orthodox faith should make its entry stringent but not totally cold/unaccepting, if they are there's something a bit wrong with that particular view of this IMHO.
@@ICXC4033
Yes Lewis and Ubi Petrus i have a huge amount of respect for. Even myself have been tempted to just go to my friends Methodist church because it's easier, but I know it wouldn't be the right reason to do so. But when we do things that are tough it builds character I guess.
@@ICXC4033 I’m in the DFW area too!! Try St Peters in Fort Worth, it’s Antiochan so entirely English and a very vibrant parish, almost all are converts! :)
Thank you for your honestly. Fr. Josiah, your videos and podcast have been a blessing to me on my journey into Orthodoxy. Bless you for doing the Lord's work and doing so with courage and boldness.
You are right, FATHER
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FATHER!! MAY GOD CONTINUE TO BLESS YOU ON THIS JOURNEY OF REUNITING OUR ORTHODOX CHURCHS!!!
True! This Father is amazing!
Well said father,love your teaching
This is a man of God. Listen to him. ☦️
This is truly Christ-like
Fr. Josiah Trenham is so correct! Not only does this diocesan, ethnic, separation have to end on an ecclesiastical level, it also has to end on a lay level. Personally, these diocesan separations make no sense. Too many churches hold too tight to the "ethnic labels" of their churches. Not that this is inherently bad,, but this does, sadly, turn many away because they don't feel welcome. Evangelism is something we Orthodox could do much better at as well. Pray on this. Lord have mercy!
Yes! Never mind the barriers, past pain, hurt, etc. Unify first and let the Holy Spirit do the work.
No
Very surprised by Fr Josiah’s comment, someone with whom I usually agree. In contrast in truth Abp Dmitri, Met Isaiah and Bp Basil unified and strengthened Pan Orthodox bonds in the Midwest jurisdictions and the resulting PanOrthodox unity was beautiful and the diversity within like different parts of the same body honoring one another and appreciating differences. I went round to the Antiochian Church and loved the people and different mode of Chant, to ROCOR and loved the gravity and the Greek for the brightByzantine, etc. To this day priests of all jurisdictions here may ask to be on the email lists of other parishes in different jurisdictions and stay in touch daily and there is a common PanOrthodox organization for good works and seminars which is another simple timely communication path. I am stunned that Fr Josiah would not have asked to be on the email list of the Church he loves and mentions. Or that he would have been refused if he had! Perhaps Texas and the midwest or the Heartland are truly friendlier than California?
Troon Rose We can appreciate differences while also being united. The indisputable FACT is that this situation of multiple bishops in a city/region all organized via their ethnic roots is completely uncanonical...ie it directly violates the guidelines set forth by the councils we claim to follow. America is a nation of immigrants which explains this phenomena in the past, but we can’t keep pretending that clinging to these jurisdictions is communicating unity to those looking at Orthodoxy and discerning if she is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Faith.
Well said Father Josiah.Very timely indeed.May Gods blessings continue to be with you.
Thank you Father for speaking truth!
I agree and think this is a huge stumbling block for many who would otherwise be interested in the faith. It takes quite a bit of courage for someone to walk into a church they've never been inside on a Sunday morning, and even more so into one which appears as an ethnic enclave. Just the other day I was sharing my recent conversion with a friend, and the first thing he said was, "I thought that was for Russians."
Thank you, Fr. Trenham! I am an Orthodox inquirer and this was one of the first questions I had...is there a differences between Greek, Russian, and Antiochian Orthodoxy. It was a point I was breifly confused about, and I was unsure if different texts/practices were observed by these branches. Unity within God's Holy Church is surely His intention!
I'm two years late, but the Eastern Orthodox communion is organized into several regional churches, which are either autocephalous (Greek for "self-headed/governing") or lower-ranking autonomous church bodies unified in theology and worship. There are fourteen Orthodox churches that are generally accepted as “autocephalous,” which in Greek means “self-headed.” An autocephalous church possesses the right to resolve all internal problems on its own authority and the ability to choose its own bishops, including the Patriarch, Archbishop or Metropolitan who heads the church. While each autocephalous church acts independently, they all remain in full sacramental and canonical communion with one another.
Today these autocephalous Orthodox churches include the four ancient Eastern Patriarchates (Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem), and ten other Orthodox churches that have emerged over the centuries in Russia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Cyprus, Greece, Poland, Albania, and the Czech and Slovak Republics.
In other words, members of the aforementioned churches can take communion at any of the listed churches, i.e. if you're Greek Orthodox, you can take communion in the Russian Orthodox Church. Or if you're Antiochian Orthodox, you can take communion in the Serbian Orthodox Church, etc.
The biggest difference is the language the services are conducted in. However, if you attend any of these churches in the U.S., there's a good chance services may be conducted partly in English.
I hope this helps.
Perhaps the real concern is where there is little faith, there is little unity. By your fruits you will be known.
We are CHRISTIAN ORTHODOX first and foremost, and then if asked, I can specify whether Greek or Romanian depending of ones country origin. If not, as a convert I identify myself as a Christian Orthodox.
For many years, I assumed that if something was "Greek Orthodox", "Russian Orthodox", etc, that it was really meant for people of that cultural background only. This year, when I've looked into Orthodox Christianity more (I'm currently without a church, and was raised in the Evangelical Free Church), I've finally learned that those labels aren't supposed to matter so much...but the different cultures is absolutely something which previously had kept me from becoming more interested in Orthodoxy, and still does make me hesitant to want to become a part of those communities.
Amen.
3:48 Reminds me of the hesitation I felt when I was going to visit a Macedonian Orthodox Church. I'm not Macedonian I thought to myself. Would people there think I'm lost?
Reminded me of the diversity center at University during undergrad. There was the Pacific Islander center, African-American center, Latin American Center, Etc...I didn't want to be part of any of those because I felt it was self segregation because those groups hardly intermingled.
I once went into one of the center's that did not match my ethnicity to use the printer, it felt like people were looking at me as if I was lost. Never went back.
Thank you Fr. Josiah
You've perfectly expressed what has been bothering me immensely for a long time. However, good luck trying to express this on any Orthodox message board. Everyone likes to pretend there is no problem.
As a catechumen (for several years waiting in a parish that lacked the resources for my catechesis), I do not draw any distinction or division. I moved recently and went from a GOArch parish to an AOCANA parish.
My parish is an interesting case study in this, because it is an incorporated former EOC parish, operated by AOCANA, but the cantor (son of the old Priest) is the head of the OCA Hermitage down the street from the Parish Church, and the metropolitans are in on this arrangement, and one of the deacons is from a Greek monastery.
I am a bit concerned, and maybe I should ask the bishop when he visits next week, that the Hermitage to the south seeks to build a chapel despite the Parish Church being there rather than resolve the issue to unity at the level of this town.
Greetings from Perú!
Adding my voice to many here. I am an American of Northern European and Protestant descent. I have become interested in the Orthodox Church, and my initial feelings in my first encounters were of not belonging because I have no Greek blood or background. It's been frustrating and honestly a bit intimidating. Agree with the Father here that the faith would reach the hearts of Americans MUCH more easily as a unified American Orthodox Church. Or even just the "Orthodox Church" in America.
So sad and true. As a Romanian living in Romania, I wish our Patriarchy would encourage people in the USA to attend the Orthodox Church in America services, and collaborate with the OCA to find solutions for the recent immigrants who perhaps don't have very good English skills or need some help with transitioning to another type of service, or anything that they might have trouble adapting to. I'm sure they could find solutions - providing translations of liturgy, induction sessions, or whatever other help they might think of.
We are organized by nation for various practical reasons, and for the same practical reasons it makes sense that the Orthodox Church in America should be the one to administer and serve the faith in the US. Having a division by nation in the world makes sense, having such divisions within ONE country makes zero sense.
Its something I've been wondering about and the sole thing that seems out of place to me for the last 8 months I've been going to church and reading. My girlfriends dad is a ROCOR priest. We just moved to a new city and I suggested a Greek church, you would've thought I'd suggested a mosque by her response! I can understand preferring one type of choir over another, but the Orthodox church, is the Orthodox church. I would LOVE to see unity in the church, the Orthodox church in America, needs to be the Orthodox church of America. If the Orthodox church in America is self governing, than it must be united.
Thank you🙏🙏unity Greetings from Greece 💝
I checked in the Philippines and three seperate Orthodox Churches have Parishes here:
Russian, Antioch &
Greek (through SE Asian Hong Kong).
None are on Palawan Island where I am.
How can the problem with the multiple bishops be solved? This is a tough situation. Pride will not let people leave their high seats.
Greetings from Greece
Thank you Fr. Josiah. Your absolutely right that Orthodox unity is our greatest challenge and opportunity. It is a sin and we need to repent and correct it.
I suggest we have a national day and hour for prayer for Orthodox canonical unity in the USA.
God bless you Father for being courageous for bringing this opportunity front and center. I pray god gives you the energy and will to make this unity happen!
Michael Zelesnik
Although I disagree with Fr. Josiah on other issues, on this he has uncovered a festering wound that will not heal without exposure to the Light of the Spirit and abandoning of our preconceived beliefs that are rooted in the heresy of phyletism. Each ethnic Orthodox entity needs to integrate a humility rooted into the suffering servant "who, being in the form of God, (Phil. 2:6-7).
This message has only gained in importance over the past year. I am a convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy. I converted due to the influence of a Greek Orthodox Parish near my Church. In my parish the Pastor is not Greek, the Cantor is not Greek and most of the Parish Council and all the latest Converts are not Greek. The youth come to Church on holidays and special vacation. What is most of the time
Lord have mercy on us.
I still believe that Jesus' prayer that we be one will be answered, one way or the other.
I doubt any other religion has followers that have the capacity to be so candidly self-critiquing of it's institutions. That is a very good sign for Christianity.
Many Christians like myself who are looking to become a member of the Orthodox Church have trouble finding one in our communities that doesn't cater to one ethnic group. I live in a mid-size city that only has a Greek Orthodox Church and a Bulgarian Orthodox Church, that's it. I was raised a Lutheran but the church I grew up going to belonged to one of the three denominations that joined together to form the ELCA in 1987, which I do not consider a true Lutheran church. I believe many want the same thing I do, to find a good traditional denomination. After years of researching from time to time I finally decided on Eastern Orthodoxy. With the Covid-19 pandemic it doesn't seem possible to start the process until there is a treatment and/or vaccine. Anyway, thanks for posting the comments from Father Trenham. He's one of the ones I enjoy listening to. Watched it late yesterday evening.
The thief on the cross is greater than I, and I am unworthy. America has been weighed in the balance.
I did... recover. Auckland 2003?? Went to a Coptic priest from Egypt. Radiation on me, physically weak, and exposed to demons. Got stronger and stronger ;;;) Repeated in Perth....
I feel like a complete outsider at orthodox churches not only because I’m African American but the whole culture is so different and how they speak different languages makes it pretty difficult. And in Protestant churches I feel more welcomed though I may not agree with the beliefs it’s nice to see people like me and other races ofc. They need to accept the fact that they’re in someone else’s country as well…and yeah we shouldn’t be divided just because we have different ethnic backgrounds
Interesting. I didn't know this. My major problems are 1) Orthodox churches are very spread apart. There are zero in my city, and I would be expected to travel quite far to get to the nearest one. 2) No pews. Americans have a strong aversion to standing for long periods.
Fr is totally correct in what he is saying. As a Catholic, I am a big fan of TH-camr site Bible Illustrated Hands. Boyan is a reader and adherent with the Serbian Orthodox Church , but constantly speaks about the Russian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Greek orthodoxy as adversaries... as those people...
You should not pay attention to him to be honest, most I've talked to consider him a "weirdo" to say the least and it sounds like he's just involving his politics too much. Realistically the only real issue present is with Russia and Greece/Constantinople over the Ukrainian schismatic church.
I agree with you. We must be united. As for the Greek Orthodox though and so on, I do not think it was used to as a separation fact but rather as to which Church I.e. Patriarch he/she "belongs" to. Growing up I never felt that Russian Orthodox are different than us, it just meant that they are most likely Russians.
In today's world though where globalization wants to rule supreme and circular life intrudes into religion I can see that this can cause confusion to the new convert.
I for one feel as brother with all Orthodox people. The bigger issue is the "fight" between the heads of the Church. You should not have them. It's not an earthly power struggle is it? We do not want to become Catholics I.e. the power hungry Pope and the schism.
The ones that want to destroy our Church put labels like fundamentalists or traditionalists but the truth is one. Do not yield to circular world. You cannot be homosexual and Christian for example, you cannot give your church buildings, the house of God to muslims to perform their service as their god is not our God hence you are defiling the sanctum. Etc etc.
Profoundly blessed
I am having a protestant basically all my life start I got a Baptist by then converted to a Penecostal and you were saying in this video that you were grieved by the division in the Orthodox Church but from what I have learned whether you’re Russian or Greek or Serbian, you’re basically have the same belief it’s like when I was a Penecostal I was assembly of God but if I was visiting a foursquare church, there is very little difference with Anyh so I don’t see why there is a big deal when you believe the same thing maybe I’m over simplifying it I want to find a way to get to Orthodox Church everything that I have heard so far I like I’m even gotten to the point of seeing why Marie is so elevated and praying to the Saints I already believe in all the other doctrines. I haven’t heard anything other than those two things that I would’ve disagreed with before I want to find a way to get to it Orthodox Church, I guess all I’m saying is that the differences and disagreements would not be a hindrance to me I also have come to the point where is she white tradition and teachings of the father is is elevated so high. I really hope I get a chance to get to an Orthodox church, I really think I could find a home there if you’re interested why am I even was looking
I had a stroke and I was in a nursing home for a while. I’m now in assisted-living I’m trying to find a way out but nobody from my church bothered to come and see me and I got disillusioned and I know this is gonna sound weird to a Orthodox but I felt like God spoke to me and said look at orthodoxy and really that is not even been on my radar even in Bible school, and I just started investigating orthodoxy and I like what I hear should I just go to the nearest orthodox church near me and how do I know what one is a good Orthodox Church and what one is not, I hope I didn’t get too windy with my message. God bless you.
The jurisdictional divide is a grave sin that is not necessary in the US. Our bishops need to get over their petty arguments and become the spiritual leaders the church needs, especially right now. If they don’t wake up I fear they are carving their way into the lake of fire and dragging us the faithful down with them
Totally agree, it is like some twisted kind of denominationalism has taken hold of Orthodoxy in America.
I have been open to conversion and learning more, even spoke with a Coptic priest about some of my questions. It was great and while I have more to study first I have been extremely put off by the desire to keep things ethnocentric and the confusion that causes. Additionally, I saw a short videos on YT from a major orthodox YTer saying to not try and convert people to the orthodox faith. Simply answer their questions and if they want to join that is fine but focus on your own inner life and family. That is such a disgusting view when you think of the consequences and was horribly off putting.
I am still studying but this has certainly pushed me away seeing that I am potentially just seen as an outsider especially when it comes to cultural preservation and I am not any of the ethnicities of the churches nearby.
I agree 100% !
I'm Irish/German American, and I never even considered going to a Greek or Russian Orthodox Church, simply because of their name.
I'm german and never more welcomed than amongst Greeks compared to wholly german lutheran churches
It is misleading reason in my understanding. I am Polish/Russian generally speaking. Born into Orthodox family and many of us experience respect as well as liking toward unique Irish or German roots within the inner make of few parishioners that happen to join our parish. St. Patrick especially is one of my beloved Saints as celebrated by many Orthodox much more then just a name in a calendar. And our German parishioners often are so dedicated in their faith the want to do best of it.
I agree 100%
I’m not Orthodox but I’m very curious about the Orthodox faith and I didn’t know there was that much division. I hope that changes, I think the Orthodox Church having a bigger presence in the US could be good for the county’s soul.
It's not "division" per se. From what I understand, it's more ethnic "division" than anything else (I'm Roman Catholic).
There is not a division in doctrines, worship just a multi cultural variety because Orthodoxy was brought to America by different national minorities Greek, Russian, Romanians who used to meet their own traditionsl colour but not different faith.. All of them are Orthodox
Please father _ try to bring as together _
Powerful!!
Im Anglican and I agree with this message.
Has your Anglican Church been infected with Zlonist lsreaI worship yet?
@Ya ZnAm which orthodoxy? Some branches dont even recognize other branche's baptism.
@@geraldbutterpants5712I have no idea of what you are talking about. Sorry.
Ok thats good to hear! No worries
I am NOT being sarcastic here, but as an educator, it looks like you guys need to create some Google Groups to keep larger communities in touch with the touch of a button. I am an American who was baptized in a Russian Orthodox Church in Yalta, Crimea and I do not divide myself from other Orthodox, I don't engage with Catholics in debate, and I consider evangelicals (trinitarian) my brothers and sisters in Christ. Christ said that if they are not against us, they are with us.
You are a great priest. The refuge is the creed. When you say I believe those 2 words makes us one . It’s personal but yet makes us one . So I respect your thoughts however , “ what ever Orthodox Church you are worshipping in the Bishop name or Greek ,Serbian, or OCA or whatever
Is irrelevant
My 2 cents in a most touchy issue. Whenever this is brought up, stone throwing seems to start, and for me, a lot of this goes back 100 years. Calendar 'adjustment'. Right now, some are fasting, some are done. It so reminds me of the Pascha dispute of Victor's time, which was finally ended by a non baptized Emperor. Maybe we should go all of the way back to then? Maybe I am heretical in some way, but I observe that very old way for myself, and don't share unless asked. It grieves me that we don't all observe The Nativity on the same day, and this is now over 100 years old. Where did this come from? What is coming from this 'jurisdiction' now with candle services with actual heretics at the Vatican?
Yes, I am an Old Calendar person. I tolerate this division, but I see no reason, except secular partying, that promotes it. It kind of forces people to be 'in the world' in some way, IMHO. Tomorrow is the Feast of The Nativity for The Baptist -- for some! But it was two weeks ago for others.
No wonder there is division.
Love to All!
4:10-4:16 is why me a (non-denominational Christian) am deterred from going to an Orthodox Church in my area.
Thank God that, despite many churches having ethnic adjectives (looking at the Greeks), there are many Orthodox parishes out there who don't care about ethnicity and are welcoming to newcomers. The parishes that stay in their little ethnic bubbles and refuse to expand will remain tiny while the Orthodox parishes that follow God's commandment to welcome all will continue to expand and grow
I think the Antiochians and OCA are best positioned to do this, if they can get the EP to instruct its jurisdictions to follow their lead. North America needs a single autocephalous Patriarchate.