If a PHEV fits your driving needs then it's great! We have two Chevy Volts. They go 50 miles without even starting the gas engine. Some of us still can't afford a Tesla, BTW.
I drove my Volt 4k miles before filling the gas tank. It cost much less than a new Leaf after incentives. I get a max range of 72 miles on battery, but love the option of taking a longer trip with the gas. A small inexpensive phev is an excellent entry point to EVs!
@@fairman14065 I've recently bought a 2019. Sometimes it will go 60 miles on a charge. My wife's 2013 forced her to burn half a tank because the gas was 6 months old. The computer keeps track of it.
That's essentially it. An EV with 300 miles or so of range which is what the Ioniq gets and it's more on the affordable side of things If I get a used PHEV, it's at least cheaper than buying an Ioniq. For me, a PHEV would be great for commuting and then also driving to my parent's house. I am however talking about buying used PHEVs more than buying new ones I see it as you just have around £15-20 worth of fuel in there (with today's prices), and you don't have to worry about the fuel going stale
I’ve driven a Honda Clarity PHEV for 3 years which has been a wonderful transition. It has allowed me to drive 90% electric while waiting for full electric car technology to mature with options from many manufacturers.
Live in a house perchance? And, majority of your journeys are local, maybe? Without this information it is hard to tell whether this would stand for "most car owners at the moment".
@@aacmove Yes, I live in a standalone house and 90% or more of my driving is local. In addition, I have a large solar array and a level two charger. What works for me does not work for everyone.
PHEV is great due to incomplete infrastructure for electric car charging stations. In the city I live, Hyundai has a rescue service for their make EV owners. When your Hyundai EV runs out of battery and stranded in road, you can phone the emergency service. They will drive a rescue car to your location and use the rescue car's battery to charge your car's battery. You do not need that if you drive a PHEV.
Hi guys, I was talking with my local garage in Gloucestershire ( only servicing ice cars) about are egolf, and if they had plans to service EVs. They are not sadly, and believe there a fad. They’ve think hybrids are ok. They were suggesting car companies are turning there backs on EVs think it’s the wrong road to go down. They seem to quote a lot of mis-information, some of which is plucked out of the air. I talk about the benefits of the EVs, and with some success, I see a few eyes raising. Usually the savings on driving these cars. But I see this kind of business in the distant future struggling because we know EVs and almost no servicing will ultimately be the end of this business. I will continue to discuss the pros of EVs with them, who knows, maybe one day....... Cheers for the fantastic show, also entertaining and informative.
While I appreciate your take on the drawbacks of PHEVs I couldn't disagree more. Since I only have one car, I need a car ready to go when I need it, whether it's charged or not. I drive a Volvo XC60 Recharge with a 40 mile range. 95% of my driving is EV when I'm home. BUT I regularly go on 1000 mile roadtrips. 8 hrs on the road in a day is enough without waiting for the battery to recharge. When I stay with friends, they never have an outlet close enough to plug in. When I head to the mountains in the summer, there isn't a public charging station within 40 miles and I park in a public lot so can't plug in. I'd love to drive an EV but they just won't work for me yet. Hopefully, sometime in the near future, EVs will have longer ranges and there will be public chargers in more remote areas. Oh, and my fuel won't get stale. If I go too far without using any gas, the combustion engine will kick on for a minute or two every now and then.
Well, I also do long trips - every week once or twice. I have a MG4 which has good range and charges to 80% in 20 mins (if you pick a high rate charge point). I also destination charge when I arrive. So, I charge while stopping for a coffee and a pee, and while doing work, then drive back starting with a full charge. I think this comment is understandable but doesn't recognise the improvements in EV range and the massively improved charger network
Oh and the point made in the video about maintenance costs shouldn't be underestimated. I've spent virtually nothing in 4 years and 70k EV travel (we now have 2 - I kept the first one). The tyres didn't wear out faster than my previous diesel SUV - I changed them at 45,000 miles just because the rainy season was coming. They were still legal
@@tonychallinor6721 The fast-charging network has certainly improved in the past few years, but it's still very incomplete. In many areas around the world road tripping can't be done in an EV at all, unless it's a top-of-the-line car. PHEVs allow people to plug-in at a much more affordable price point without sacrificing road-trip-ability.
@@tonychallinor6721 I mean clearly you don't go to the same places this person does. I more or less share their experience. There's rarely electrical outlets at e.g. mountains, beaches, really anywhere you actually want to be on a road trip, and in general destination charging just doesn't work for many destinations.
With all respect, I am driving a 2013 Plug-in Prius, bought 2nd hand, coming from a Diesel Estate. I can charge at home, and every first 20 km’s is fully electric, which is most city kilometers. We currently drive around 20-25% full electric, and weekly I need to drive at least 200 km on the motorway. I have a very good fuel economy, maintenance cost is low, and it will bridge me to when affordable 2nd hand EV’s become available.
This. They've forgotten the most sensible option for people who still cannot afford a BEV. Not gas or HEV or PHEV but any kind of 2nd hand good hybrid you can find. Don't eat the full depreciation of a new car which is going to be obsolete in 5 years.
Absolutely agree! I just bought a 2013 plugin Prius myself last week, and so far I love it. Fuel consumption so far has been phenomenally low, and if it's as reliable as my previous gen2 regular hybrid, maintenance should be good too.
Totally, I think a PHEV makes way more sense, and I think for most people it would end up being better for the environment too, since it doesn’t have the crazy embodied emissions of an BEV
@@charliebrackenbury6115 That embodied emission isn't crazy. Especially if the battery is made outside of China. Also, as the grid is getting greener, the CO2 cost of manufacturing will keep dropping.
@@andrasbiro3007 yeah, I know it’s getting better, still though, even just the mining of the rare earth metals necessary to make the cells has a huge impact compared to the metal needed to make an ICE, the nice part of a PHEV is that you can have batteries for your day to day range and then on occasion use the ICE for long distances, that way you aren’t lugging around hundreds of pounds of energy intensive batteries for the couple of times you exceed the range
You can drag around a ICE and fuel/exhaust system in a plug-in hybrid or a lot of battery capacity you aren't using all the time. It appears that the weight might be comparable between the two. If PHEVs had 50 mile electric range you could spread the batteries out across a lot more consumers. Most people don't need 300 miles of electric range. Just like most people don't need 1000 horsepower. But people are trying to knock down the plug-in hybrids in favor of battery only cars that people don't need or can't afford.
A range extender wankel engine/generator etc runs ~150lb, with higher power genset's maybe ~200lb, better than the ~1000lb for a long range battery. Mated to ~100 mile range battery this would cover pretty much all requirements; virtually all trips would be electric only. Long range will kick in the range extender. The engine also can run on hydrogen, to keep the activist greenies happy. I'd expect the car to be plug in as well to maximise flexibility.
Or don't want to pay.. Public transport is also quicker tbh. It'd be great to see all railway lines be electrified, and for the UK to have a long term goal of putting in maglev HS2 pushes the boundaries of the kinds of speed that traditional railways support but there is a limit.. Maglev has a limit too but a much higher limit. It's just a really expensive technology. Hopefully once Maglev becomes cheaper, we might have say 325Mph trains which would really change the UK, given how relatively small it is
@@thecraggrat My driving needs are 95 percent urban and 5 percent total desolation. When I leave the Wasatch Front and hie to my Wyoming retreat, charging stations are practically non existent. My "electric car with a range extender" (Chevy Volt) is ideal.
Car for car what is the price difference between a PHEV with say 50 mls electric range and a BEV with say 200 mls range? I think you'll find the initial purchase price is actually quite small nowadays.
GM offered the first dedicated PHEV, but with the second gen decided it was pointless. Cheaper to ditch the engine system and go full electric. So no more Volts and instead more full EVs.
I owned 3 "self-charging" hybrids in succession. To an old petrol-head, they proved to me that I wanted a full electric car. Now I have a full BEV but it would not have happened if the hybrids hadn't persuaded me how good electric power, albeit for a mile or less, really could be.
I have currently PHEV and most likely will jump to BEV. I bought PHEV 1.5 years ago as BEVs had (and still have) a bit too many limitations from my point of view. But we have Audi Quattro Avant (=my wife's car) which we can use for longer trips, towing etc. so I should be able to tolerate downsides of BEV in my car and use Audi when BEV is not good. Also PHEV also 'educated' me that generally EV is pretty good path forward, while current cars still have a bit too may downsides. Also I think that all new petrol/diesel cars should be hybrids and gradually (probably quite fast) things will shift to EVs. Having hybrids in between will ease up limited supply of batteries and will very fast reduce pollution.
@@mho0 You make some fair points, but we recently had "Hybrid Gate" where it turned out PHEV's pollute far more the manufacturers claimed. And the reason really is simple, but difficult to solve. Combustion engine cars are very dirty and polluting until the CAT has a chance to heat up and burn off the pollution, extra petrol that doesn't get burned, particulates, etc. In a PHEV, the engine kicks in for seconds or barely a minute or two at time. So, it really never gets the CAT up to operating temperature, which means the car engine runs in the cold fully polluting mode pretty much the entire time. As the video makes a point of, most people transition to electric cars through Hybrids. They go combustion, hybrid, plug in hybrid, BEV, or combustion, hybrid, BEV. So, their usefulness appear to be mostly just as a hand holding device to get people to full BEV's. After a year or two with PHEV, most people start wondering why they are hauling around this large engine and transmission they really never use. Add in the far better performance of BEV's and they end of losing the combustion engine.
I think hybrids are a good stepping stone, they also handy if you don’t have a drive way to charge at overnight, something I think many people forget about ev owneship, don’t get me wrong you can make it work just charging at ev point but then you kinda got a plan a extra 1 or 2hr a week that you able to leave your car to charge, plus people without driveway are usually low earners so likely can only afford low range evs which means more time at charger points paying the higher charging rates, It does kinda feel unfair. Good top mpg hybrid might be even cheaper to run.
Guys, I disagree: there is no problem with a PHEV. In fact for some, especially those who need only one car for city and long range drives (occasionally), the PHEV is the best of both worlds. Here in Ireland, especially in the West, the charging infrastructure is crap. I’m not going to have to run two cars or worse one that cannot meet my requirements
2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV to minimize gas usage on local errands, 60-63 mpg on long trips, deviations, no place to plug has been a perfect vehicle for our purposes.
I have no fossils since 2019. I drive 40.000-50.000km a year. I got no range anxiety. Electricity is everywhere. Gas stations are dying out around here.
@@JackScarlett1 Our gas stations are around 20-50 kilometers apart and close at 8 in the evening. And what then? When you are stranded in the middle of nowhere?
My previous car was a Prius since I wanted something more economical for my daily commute round the M25. I used to play the "how long can I go without the petrol engine cutting in" game and it was absolutely my gateway drug to a full BEV. The Prius was replaced with a Tesla Model 3 SR+ which has fully satisfied those cravings for a smooth, quiet electric drive.
thats the crux that a lot of people miss. BEVs are SO much nicer to drive. I drive locally most of the time on twisty country roads. In full regen/1 pedal drive mode its so much better than constant gear shifting. On the motorway with the adaptive cruise its more relaxing on a long drive. ( ive driven more than 15 hours in a day and wasnt wrecked the next day. Same journey in a manual petrol and im not recovered until 24 hours later. Stop/start traffic the car just sorts it out and i occasionally just have thumb the button on the steering wheel to get it going. Manual petrol you are considering a hip replacement op after an hour or so.
I really like my Kona Ev, only downside lately are the charging stations, apps don’t work properly or it won’t connect, or cuts out 10 mins into a charge. The network has to get better, old chargers have to be updated and add more boxes to the area. Big ev stations are a great idea, but the network for these has to grow quickly! Great show, love watching 😊
Let's get a new law passed: any charging station which can technically provide power but is offline due to a software/connectivity issue _must_ offer free vend. I expect suddenly engineers will be appearing within hours rather than weeks
To be honest, I already own a BEV with over 350km of range on full battery and I LOVE it, but I am considering changing to a PHEV only because of limits on longer trips! Range anxiety, all the calculations of routes and stops and finding a fast charger, and a charger at the destination and and and... yes it is getting much better, but it is still just too much hustle!
That too is a concern for me. Every summer I liked going to the mountains, but it is VERY rural. I've also heard of inadequate recharging sites and congestion almost anywhere. Besides, most electricity is still generated from coal, gas or petroleum anyway. I replaced my Prius with a Rav4, both hybrids but now I have headroom for my mattress in the back ... and a motorized back gate so I can easily enter/exit rather than crawl through. Downside for larger size is less MPG, but still better than ICE only. I view HYBRID as better than ICE of course but the better answer until the world can handle a billion BEVs.
The Coffee Loop: For customers, it's GOOD to have choices. In time, BEV's and batteries will get better and cheaper, and it will become a no-brainer, as you can get something like 500 mile range for a reasonable price AND charging stations will be ubiguitous. In the mean time, during the transition stage, which will last decades, it's great to have choices. Driving a PHEV is MUCH better than driving a pure ICE, re the environment.
@@markamanns5145: First, VERY little electricity is generated from burning oil. Second, more and more electricity is generated from clean sources each year, and from natural gas instead of coal, which is much cleaner than coal. If you want to drive hybrid -- dandy. But don't spread the usual denier falsehoods about the electric system to justify it -- it's bad enough with people that lie for a political agenda. (Not saying you're lying, but you're wrong re the electricity. Don't take my word for it -- the data is all over the internet on reliable sites like the EIA, the IEA, government energy sites, etc.
@@markamanns5145 Just well the "Authorities" have twigged that BEV technology is a dead end. It's the charging time anxiety, range anxiety and "the finding of a charger" anxiety. There's no way UK can provide enough electrical energy to keep up with recharging vehicles what with the legislation requiring the reduction of fossil fuels for heating and cooking. You'll have noticed the increased references to Hydrogen fuel ... and the waning enthusiasm from Boris on "his" massive battery construction projects. Plus the growing confidence in HVO fuels. Vegetable based fuel with nary a fossil to be seen. If, as is becoming clearer (!) by the day, HVO burns more cleanly then the wording of getting rid of "fossil fuels" allows for the use of "compression ignition" engines anyway. HGVs have been running on HVO for over two years and there appears to no pollution issues as yet.
I like EVs so I've been thinking about this for awhile and came to conclusion that hybrids are still the way to go 'for me' because: 1. Fuel in my country costs like half in Europe but vehicles cost 3 times so my break-even point is much longer. 2. Charging infrastructures in my country is like UK 10 years ago and there's no official Tesla dealers so there's 0 supercharger. Hybrids would work better for at least a decade. 3. Houses in south east Asia don't use much electricity like in Europe so regular houses got 45A max, if I have an EV I need to upgrade the system to 100A which cost me about 2 years of fuel just to break even for new installation. So it very much depends on how each country works and how you use the vehicle because there're too many variants and at the end of the day it's about money you spent.
With home charging, you don't need more than a few kW (3-4) for charging. Your arguments are still valid though. You should watch Bjorn Nyland videos, he experienced BEV in Thailand for over a month, and it went great.
Good comment, but not useful, since the video is for the UK. I am not talking about hybrids and EVs in Iraq, where not only there isn't electricity except from each house's diesel generator (the grid never works), but the fuel for cars is so low quality you need a giant petrol engine to use it.
PHEV (if it has ~50 miles of range) is still extremely important during this transition period, at least in America, for years yet for the 10's of millions of people that can't charge at home or work. Apartments/condos, street only parking, etc. If their gasoline usage drops 80% that is still a win for the short term. Once there is level 2 (240v) charging just about everywhere we park running errands we can always be topped off and then full electric is possible for everyone. But that's a long way out in the US. My kids can't get BEV because their 20's will be all apartment living with nowhere to charge.
@@NickFoster plugging in phev at a destination, like a mall or restaurant lot means toy can top off or charge a small battery without DCFC, and come back to a charged car to get home, granted you can do that with a BEV, but you won't be able to fill a battery without a driveway. also when going long distances, in our area and use, that is common, our ID4 worked but i was hunting to be able to max range. some trips required a long break and overnight driving makes that much harder
@@saeedhossain6099 Its beacause only Tesla at the moment has the required and reliable fast charging infrastructure. With their long range version cars long trips are barely longer than with gasoline cars and more often than not the driver is the limiting factor. The other infrastructures really need to catch up in terms of charging speed and reliabilty. Luckily Tesla is slowly opening its advanced and reliable chargers to other brands, but the cars also need to get a bit better on sustained charging speeds.
@@geiers6013 In most of the US even Tesla doesn't have the necessary infrastructure yet. You often have to base your itinerary around the charging stations. Granted, in reality this is only like 5% of your driving, but that can be a deal breaker.
I hope the Aptera does go into production this time. Light ,efficient ,compact and not too expensive BEVs are what is needed for the masses. Aptera has the advantage of solar,may never need charging,at least in the sunnier parts of the world.(like N.Z & Australia)
Yeah it is the perfect car for commuting and is deceptive in size. It looks small but actually has quite a bit of trunk space and safety wise they use a survival cell. I anticipate there will be a lot of copying going on (especially in China). If the production design does not have any major reliability or cosmetic problems after the first round go out and start racking up the km I am all in for one, plus they are all about right to repair and modularity so big win there also.
A rather brilliant concept, was under my top 3 yet-to-come SEVs (beside the Lightyear 1 from the NL and the Sion from Germany). Living just 200 km from Sonomotor's headquarter, preferring a 4-5 seater and looking for an EV wirh a trailer hook, I finally decided (and per-ordered) the Sion. The Lightyear would have beaten both, but for the price I'd get 5 (!) Sions or Apteras. Oh, and finally I'm not sure when the Aptera will pass homologation for my country. (Even they couldn't tell...) But I pretty much will stay tremendously curious about all three of them, for sure! 🤩👍
For me as a petrolhead the BMW 330e was the perfect exit drug. I got 330i performance, absence of range anxiety, a very sophisticated integration of the electric motor into the drivetrain and I managed to achieve 80 mpg and 4.5 mi/kWh on average driving roughly 2/3 in electric mode. But as you said, that PHEV was my first and my last of its kind and now I´m driving an i3s BEV.
I also bought the 330e but a year ago when not many BEVs took my fancy. Charging infrastructure was not brilliant for my trips to see family 450 miles away. My trips are mainly 37 mile round trips three times a week and for the 17 months it has done 11,200 miles and at least 9500 were on battery. My mind is now made up and the BMW i4 40 Sport is on order due June’ish. There is strong demand for the 330e so great trade price. A good experience and EV education.
@@douglaswares8296 Mine was an F30, so only 12 to 18 mile pure electric range from 5.7 kWh gross battery size. Yet with charging every night I was able to cover most of my daily driving on electric power alone. I4 40 sounds great, but the new 4-series is a bit too big for my taste and my needs.
@@klausM54 I posted my own comment 30 minutes after you... my thoughts are the same as yours, except that I could live with the i4 40, but can't afford it! :o(
Glad to see some love for the i3 REx, ours is fantastic. Our battery does 55-60 miles at this time of year, but even so, we haven't used the petrol engine for months, but crucially it's there for long journeys where it's impractical to recharge 4 or 5 times. We simply fill up the tank and the battery, fill up a 10 litre jerrycan, do 140 miles, then recharge the battery and refill the tank at the same time. Easy peasy!
Great car , Im looking at a late rex or an ID3 as I regularly drive 600 miles with a ferry crossing in the middle and I don't want to miss the ferry because a charger is broken. Rex is a great solution.
I do understand the argument that if you're going to plug it in, you might as well get electric. But no amount of fuel savings or tax relief is going to give me the money for a house with a driveway where I can charge my car. So, until I have access to off street parking, it's ICE with electric assistance for me.
@@cbcdesign001 it's a blend. They have a generalized script with main points etc. They are using viewers questions so they have worked out their answers, but sure, the conversation is unscripted. If that makes sense. I've worked in TV. Some of the presenters are insanely professional. They can even time their comment to fit a countdown that is happening in their earpiece, to the nearest second or two. Live!
I would dearly love to own a full EV but, for my average usage, they are not cost effective. When I returned to live in the UK in 2016, I bought a pre-owned 62 plate Yaris Hybrid which I adore. I don't have to pay Road Tax, my insurance is very reasonable and I get about 62 MPG. Because most of my journeys are local with an occasional long distance drive to 'the big smoke' to see my family, I've only reached about 36k on the odometer. It is economical, quiet and a delight to drive. (And yes, Robert, I only fill up once every 6-9 months and I've never had any problems with 'stale' petrol!) I've looked at the economics of owning a secondhand EV but the figures don't stand up. At present, a pre-owned Zoe or E-up (the equivalent to a Yaris Hybrid) is just so damned expensive and, although a Nissan Leaf or Vauxhall might be relatively less expense, I don't need anything that big. So I've decided to hang on to the Yaris Hybrid and run it into the ground, although its reliability might mean this will take decades. I suppose the only 'crunch factor' will be if HMG decide that my hybrid should incur Road Tax!
As someone looking for a small/medium-sized used car, I have literally never even see any hybrids whatsoever within 100 miles of me and within my (relatively limited, but still not absolutely tiny) budget. So I'll have to make do with an ICE until the used and/or the new electric ones get cheap enough for me to afford. Which is a shame, because I'd love to be a bit greener
PHEVs do lug around an engine and transmission when they’re not used, but in the same light a BEV lugs around a giant battery when not much of it is needed on similar basis. I think a efficient PHEV is still a very good choice, as the battery is about 20% of a decent sized BEV so much less in raw materials and can allow other PHEVs to hit the road and be a larger impact if used as intended.
But in the same vein no matter what you choose, you still have to lug around something, why not choose the BEV as it costs less to charge, and is so much more efficient, making it better value for money, a PHEV would be the heaviest in terms of lugging things around…
@@benjibatch my info could be outdated by now, but I swore I saw that something like a Prius Prime gets more miles per kWh than a Model 3 when running in EV mode and is lighter in terms of curb weight.
This is one point I was going to bring up. A Phev is not too far off a Bev long range, doing a lot of short trips. One other issue is that there isn't a BEV option available for all vehicle types. Robert said, buy a Prius over a big suv. They are two completely different vehicles. For some, it would work; some need the size for some reason. One reason is towing for some; the Prius can't keep up in that category.
@@FlexinJC yeah that is definitely a fair point. Some people need or want a different type of vehicle, which may not be available or practical as one or the other type of powertrain.
@@benjibatch no, a BEV is MUCH heavier, eg. The Kia Niro EV is 450lb heavier than the PHEV version(from their official spec sheets) and it's only got a 64 kWh battery, not the +- 100kwH one it would need to have more than mediocre range. If you're going to be lugging around something that's used only occasionally, a relatively lightweight ICE engine is preferable.
In Australia at the moment the PHEV is only practical option compromise for locations I visit as a Fly Fisherman. Look up Miena, Tasmania, Nelson, Victoria and Port Fairy, Victoria and tell me how an exclusive electric vehicle could be a viable option. there are no charging options close by apart from your average wall socket. A round trip to a charging station is at limit of most current vehicles. In rural areas it doesn't take long to out reach the charging network. If it weren't for my hobby and travel involved an electric only could be an option. Don't get me wrong, if we had better charging networks in rural areas electric may become an option but for now our Mercedes PHEV is a great option, it has up to about 70 klm range on electric great for every day around suburban Ballarat (80% everyday driving anyway) and charges overnight on regular 240 volt plug for the longer trips the ICE kick in. Plugging in every night is part of routine. A full trip Ballarat to Port Fairy, about 220klm starting with full charge pulls fuel usage to under 2L/100klm. I am longing for the day there is a decent electric towing vehicle with a 2-3 tonne towing capacity similar to say Toyota Prado and a practical towing range of 600klm. I'd even volunteer to trial such a vehicle before it hits the market. For one thing I've always considered electric a better option for remote trips because with a few solar panels one could creep back to civilization even if only 40 or 50 klms a time. Run out of fuel and you're stuffed. As a family we may go one electric and one PHEV towing unit. Much better than one PHEV and a Diesel SUV currently.
Fully electric cars consume more fossil fuel than gas burning cars. Aside from the energy conversion inefficiencies, the embedded energy processes of manufacturing are wasteful. The amount of energy used just to manufacture an electric car is the equivalent, in oil consumption, of what 130 thousand miles of vehicle use would be in driving. For a gas burning vehicle the equivalent is 20 thousand miles. So the electric vehicle is 110 thousand miles behind before it even leaves the factory. Then there are many other factors that contribute to its inefficiency.
I’m happy to hear hybrids aren’t the devil. I’ve just passed my driving test, I can’t afford a new car, or a second hand electric. But I’m looking at getting a second hand Prius. Thanks for this.
Well, they sort of are the devil. It takes the emissions and environmental impacts of building a petrol car + the impacts of building an EV and putting all of that into one vehicle. While marketing will tell you differently, the environmental ROI on a product like this will have to me much longer than a BEV alone. Even if that BEV is electrified by coal. They are purposely green washed to continue business as usual for big auto and the oil companies. That said, buying one second hand keeps it active so, it wasn't a waste to make it in the first place.
@@roguea987 Making a battery for an average BEV pollutes 40x more than the batteries for a self charging Hybrid. (Simple math, there that much bigger) Pollution of making a petrol engine is negligible compared to this. Hybrids do cut down a lot on emissions compared to normal petrol/diesel vehicles. So for the initial pollution of making just one BEV(which replaces only one ICE vehicle), you can produce and cut down road pollution of 40 petrol/diesel vehicles by swapping them for a hybrid. Total environmental gain is larger by the masses switching to hybrids. Not to mention that most people still have a car no2 with ICE when they need to go somewhere on a long trip. We live in a fast paced world where people already barely have enough time to fit everything they need into a day. "Just plan on taking more time travelling" sounds good in theory, but doesn't work in reality. That's why a plug-in hybrid RAV4 is the best of both worlds. You can drive up to 75km in ev mode (almost 90km in reality) and just keep going if you need to go further.
@@sasakurtovic6850 Absolute rubbish. For starters, the RAV4 pack is 18.1 kWh (yes, i actually checked instead of guessing) That'll be about 30-40% the size of the average BEV. So 3 "times the pollution" not "40"....."simple math"...duh? Pollution to make a petrol engine (AND all the extra ancillaries!) is VERY comparable to this. . As for "cutting emissions". A smaller(?) engine, pulling more weight? Is going to be under more stress. It will pollute more...... Unless it's a larger engine, but in that case what's the point? On that subject, the RAV4 Hybrid had a *2 4 litre* engine (needed to pull the weight??😂) .... Should we get into the pollution of simply *producing* the fuel? (NOT even burning it?) That's one of Roberts favourites. (Check his interview with Graeme Cooper of the National Grid) +/- 7 kW per gallon of fuel. Enough to drive a BEV 25-35 miles, depending on the vehicle. That immediately comes off "the bottom line" of cost AND pollution for the EV. ..... As I said, you're guessing. Please don't.
I drove a Chevy Volt PHEV for 4 years and it was great. I got between 50 and 60 miles range on pure electric. My EV use of it alone was over 75% and I only had 2 oil changes since the ICE motor was only used when I was on a longer trip. It was the gateway drug though hence I now drive a Tesla. Very happy with it so far (one year)
I used to own a Golf GTE. Lovely car, but no matter how little you used the engine, VW still made me come in every year for an oil change. That basically ruins most PHEVs economically speaking...
agreed completely, i have had 2 - 2nd gen volts 2016-2018 and 2018 to present, LOVE it. I have added gas 2 times per year, it is nice to have the back-up as needed for long drives
OK, but that Tesla with its huge battery is stopping ten others getting a Volt! Battery capacity is growing but it's still limited. Why just have it all sitting in your car unused most of the time when nine others could be using it all?
@@PILLOCK4 Well my Tesla isn't one with the really large batterys...I've got a Model Y SR which only has a 58kw battery compared to my gen 2 Volt which had an 18kw battery so it's not 10 others as the battery is only about 3 times the size
@@krugerdave My '17 Volt came with 2 free oil changes from the dealer I used them both approx. at 2 year (the maximum recommended time as the milage wasn't at the recommended range) and the 2nd.was timed right before my warranty expired so was still free. I was then due for a third one by the time that I sold it
I have what is probably the longest range mass-produced PHEV in the world, the 2g Chevy Volt. Most hybrids are on the "gas" end of the spectrum; ie they are a gas-powered car with electric battery and motor to assist. The Volt is on the other end - basically a short-range pure electric car, with a (really big) gas generator that kicks in when the battery runs out. And since I live in a third-world country (Ohio, USA) electric-wise, where it is illegal to like electric cars and you will probably be beaten for trying to charge one in public, assuming you can even get past all the diesel pickups intentionally blocking the (few) chargers in the first place, it is still a good car to have. In warm weather I can make my 54 mile commute on electric only and on trips I get 43 mpg(US gals, 54 imp) when not using battery. I charge it in my garage and it takes maybe 15 seconds on arrival and 10 seconds on departure to fool with the plug. It takes 1.5 hours to charge empty to 80%, but I dont notice Im inside fixing dinner. Yes, I still have to get an annual-ish oil change, and in Ohio I am penalized $200/year on my plates (about 4x as much as a gas car) for being eco-friendly, and of course I dont have a frunk because I DO have an engine up front (and it just BARELY fits - heaven help me if I ever need to, idk, FIND a spark plug). OTOH It goes like stink (294 lb-ft at 0RPM) and I love looking back at V-8 Camaros/Mustangs in the mirror still crossing the intersection I already left, limited only by my front-wheel drive traction. (My next car will be dual-motor!) And as far as not raving range anxiety - its true I have NO range anxiety. However I have replaced it with the equally annoying "dont let the engine start" anxiety :(
Totally missed the point that people who do a few very long journeys but most of the time commute less than 30m a day with the current terrible charging network in the UK would find a PHEV really good.
I'm not sure you can call the UK charging network really terrible for a few long journeys, most Motorway service stations now have excellent Gridserve chargers. It all depends on where those long journeys take them.
@@ianmurray250 no most of the changes don't work. We have to keep reseting them. And they keep going off line. We have a long way to go yet. Also ,most electric cars have 100miles less than they claim when you treat them like normal cars by driving them in winter and turning electric things on in the car.
@@chrishart8548 Not what I have found with chargers recently and my Kona has a 240 minimum range, vice 287 (or 278 I can't remember) if I am really heavy with the throttle and don't give a dam. Over 300 with sunny weather and air con.
@@ianmurray250 i have used the chargers on long trips regularly and they are hopeless and getting worse, as electric car numbers increase at a greater rate than the chargers. You can't rely on them, full stop !
If your long journeys aren't regular, then you're fine with a BEV too. It's a bit of a paradox. If you're going on a lot of long journeys, the benefit of a hybrid isn't great. If you're doing it rarely, then the benefits don't really matter.
30 months ago when I got my Ioniq PHEV it was perfect because my daily commute just about used up the EV range, and for snowboarding and mountain bike getaways I didn't have to stop to charge. Now that I've been working from home for 23 months and the only trips I take are the long ones, I'm annoyed that I always seem to be buying gas. Still half the gas I put in my old car, but the full EVs look more and more appealing every day. My PHEV is the best of both worlds, but also the worst as I still have to get oil changes, and have more parts to fail than either an EV or a traditional fossil car.
We have the Ioniq Electric and we got an Ioniq Plug-In as a courtesy car for a day. To the casual observer they’re identical so you’d think they’d be similar to drive but the PHEV was sluggish in comparison.
@@davidfyork Oh for sure! But I wouldn't have wanted to drive the 744 km trip home from Mont Tremblant yesterday after a half day of snowboarding with all the charging stops I'd have to make in an original Ioniq EV either, and on Canada's pathetic non-Tesla charging infrastructure to boot. I do that trip several times a season. My day in an EV is coming, but it wasn't happening 2.5 years ago. Edit to add: Ontario has finally announced that their motorway service centres, which they call ONroute stops, are all getting DC fast chargers. This will change the math for me significantly! I only hope that they're putting in 300 kW stations and not cheaping out with 50s.
I have Volvo V60 hybrid and I think it is a great car. For me really best of both worlds. Enough space Still not SUV ( I am really not fan of tall SUVs) Can tow 2000kg Station wagon (easy to put 2 german shepherds to trunk) Can drive to 50km commuting full EV mode (charge both ends) Plenty of power Great design and good quality Comfortable and quiet But it really depends on your needs which is the best (EV, PHEV, Diesel/gas).
On the money as ever gents. My father in law called me an idiot for buying an eNiro because "you'll be replacing the battery in five years and it'll cost you £20,000". Step away from the Daily Fail......
I liked this video a lot. I'm a fan of full battery electric vehicles, and have only ever bought full BEVs myself. That said, I disagree with many of the statements about plug-in hybrids (PHEVs). Most people I know with PHEVs hardly ever fill up, as a typical PHEV these days can go 40+ kilometres on a charge, and that's more than the average person does in an average day in most countries. And since the ICE portion of the vehicle is relatively rarely used, the maintenance of them appears to be relatively low. It doesn't appear to be the worst of both worlds, they appear to be far lower maintenance than regular ICE vehicles. And since they cost less, and can do things that BEV can't do (such as long trips through routes that don't have adequate charging infrastructure yet), they are absolutely the better answer for some people at this time. Oh, and PHEVs charging slower isn't much of an issue for most PHEV owners, as they also have much smaller batteries to charge, so that comment I don't think was "on point" either. The issue of gas going stale does exist, but modern day gas tanks are better sealed than they used to be. And so long as you keep the tank full up (which reduces the potential for condensation to build up in the tank) then you can likely go a fairly long time without any problems. I also think complaining about the extra weight of the engine in a PHEV makes no sense and is not scientific. A typical PHEV weighs less than a similar BEV. For example, the curb weight of the BEV Kia Niro is 3,854 lbs, but the PHEV version is only 3,391 lbs! I'm not pro-PHEV. I wouldn't purchase a PHEV for myself. I'm all-in for BEVs. But I think it's important that we choose between PHEVs and BEVs for the right reasons, is all. :)
Plugin hybrid will barely be plugged in to be charged, people mostly will drive on petrol to avoid paying the congestion charge and a prius self charging is as cost effective as a BEV to drive.. On the long run because sooner or later the electricity suppliers will charge additional prices for charging bev's and they are already installing additional electricity meter at home for owners of BEV'S.. and on cold winters the BEV'S rang drops buy 40% while the self charging hybrids have very little change in its range and the battery doesn't need to be drained to heat up the battery like on the bev's,
Being an owner of an I3 REX, I have to say the petrol backup has saved us many times. We probably only use it 6 times a year but on a motorway it makes such a huge difference, especially when charge points don't work. I don't understand why more manufacturers didn't take this route
I've just got one as well. To be honest, it's been quite a challenge. I have to say I'm disappointed in the way this video glosses over many of the issues with battery-only driving and plan to be contacting Fully Charged direct in this regard.
@@CwyfanapRhys do you know how much that affects range? It seems like a better solution than the hybrids that attach both the electric motor and engine to the drive train.
@@mikeedwards83 I suppose that depends on the i3 whether it’s 60Ah, 94Ah or 120Ah. Back in the day, the range extender made sense given the number of rapid charge points weren’t so widespread. Now I think onboard 22kW charging would be more useful as many rapid chargers provide this as well as the 50kW DC and both can be used simultaneously (obviously not by the same vehicle). Useful for those very infrequent use cases and the DC charger is already in use.
Plug-in hybrids have technology to know when the ice engine needs to be “cycled on“. Every once in a while my plug-in hybrid starts it’s ice motor if I have not used it in a couple days. It runs for about a minute, and then turns off again. This “exercises“ the engine, and also burns a tiny bit of the fuel. Personally, I either only keep about half a tank on board unless I’m on a road trip.
@@joeb4294 your 12v battery does drain slowly when you don't drive the car and iirc it is that 12v battery that makes your start button or ignition key start either the ICE engine and/or the battery pack.
@@joeb4294 Not sure about my wife's Kia Niro, but a Chevy Volt wants to run 5 minutes a month and get to nominal operating temp to keep water condensation in the oil to an acceptable level.
@@DarkDutch007 Oh, I might have been biased by my 'PHEV' experience being with an i3 Rex which manages the 12v battery with the traction battery. The i3 Rex is more of an EV with an onboard electric generator. I suppose that most PHEVs with smallish batteries do not have that ability. Still, I would expect that the 12v would be okay for at least a week but I suppose the car would be designed more conservatively since it would not know if it will be left idle for a week after today's drive.
I work for a wind energy company & I'll be getting a company car soon... And I will be asking for a PHEV. My work place is about 10 miles away, so on a normal day i'll be doing 20 miles of commuting, and have the car charged while I'm at work. This means pure electric commuting. However, my job also requires me to do one or two longer trips in the 350 to 400 miles range every week. This is a use scenario which I still simply wouldn't be comfortable with in a BEV, especially because being half an hour late to a meeting is just not OK, and I wouldn't have a clue whether the companies and towns I'll be headed to have fast chargers nearby (today the most likely answer is still no). PHEVs are getting decent electric range nowadays. As an engineer my biggest gripe with them is that they're much heaver than normal petrol cars; but they are getting lighter. So yes, BEVs are better from a technological standpoint, but in my case, they simply aren't the right option. So PHEVs are a great proposition for some scenarios. And it's a good thing we get the choice. Sadly, PHEV drivers rarely charge their cars and simply drive them for tax benefits. And that is retarded.
Maybe they'll be charging them more as fuel prices spike. On my Prius Prime, my EV miles are still $0.02/mile, while the ICE miles have gone from $0.05/mile to $0.075/mile. A very survivable jump in cost, but still a good incentive to plug in every time I'm home. I have friends who live in RVs, whose diesel costs have gone from $0.42/mile to $0.70/mile. Every one of them cries about it when they put $150 to $250 of fuel at a time into their 8-10mpg vehicles now. Those who were planning big trips where they'd have to do that several times to get to a destination, have almost all decided to make 2022 a "less travel, spend more time in each place" year.
@@EfficientRVer Many PHEVs are company cars, I think there should be an incentive for charging them, otherwise the driver isn't paying the gas so why would (s)he care ? I have a gas company car so I know the feeling.
I so relate to this. I’ve always been interested in cars. And so it was natural that I read and researched the technologies over the years. This year my wife and I were in the market for a new car (after not having one for 3 years after moving to Denmark). And we bounced back and forth between PHEV and EV. And I spent nights evaluating, until one day, we just decided, let’s take the plunge. “Let’s buy an EV”, we said. For all it’s pros and all it’s cons. It’s THE way forward. And now we’re waiting delivery of our new Polestar 2. Shout out to Bobby L because his review of that car, and calling it close to the best he’s driven was one of the things that pushed me to take the plunge! Well done!
Really surprised Fully Charged got it so wrong on PHEV’s. They are right that self charging hybrid is a lie, but not PHEV. Mine has 50KM range and it’s more than sufficient for the vast majority of journeys, then if I need to go further the petrol engine gives me unlimited range. While the notion a PHEV engine might not start for a year is total nonsense. BEV’s are great under certain circumstances, but have limited practical use outside of a fanatical early adopter community and Tesla die hards. Reliable, affordable charging infrastructure is non existent and when it is available half the time it’s not working, starts working then stops, has damaged connectors or there are long queues to access chargers. There are Firmware glitches with integration over DIN and even DC chargers being blocked by ICE vehicles. Right now BEV’s are for company fleet vehicles and the brave. Whereas PHEV is a great bridge technology for real world driving.
I disagree with the PHEV hate. PHEV are extremely important, gateway drug to full electric. Many people like myself can't charge at home but can in a limited number of places. I'd happily start with a PHEV.
The average man in the street doesn’t find it easy to go full EV ! Surely the likes of a Toyota hybrid Cross over ‘ Isn’t too bad to start off with 🤷🏼♂️ 🇬🇧
I have a PHEW and love it. Most weekly running around is all electric. But, I drive a trip of about 500 miles through the desert every couple of months. MOST EVs don't have that range and I don't want to start looking for a charging station in the middle of nowhere!
The negatively towards hybrids in this video show ignorance to the fact that it everyone lives in the type of residence as the the hosts of this podcast. The infrastructure to EVs is not there yet. When charging becomes available as plentiful as gas stations, then it may be time to switch. BEVs are certainly for tomorrow, but Hybrids and PHEVs are for today.
@@davidc8937 or indeed can afford an EV that would work for the sort of use we need. The second hand Outlander PHEV we have will do 20 miles of EV (home charged), do the 50 mile commute and tow the caravan. We'd currently have to pay a huge amount for an EV that would tow our caravan! No way we could dream of affording a £50k EV even on a lease
Me and my family are driving a Polestar 2 - also thanks to Robert‘s „exquisit“ review (thanks by the way!). It’s our first EV, and we love it. Never loved a car before. And no range anxiety any more. Effectively saves time (charging at home, no petrol stations) and a significant amount of money!
I'm really disappointed you didn't mention towing a heavy caravan or horsebox with a PHEV. I don't think n that fully electric cars are able to provide a good enough towing range yet. I drive 10-20 miles a day on average, then 1 a month a so I tow a 1500kg caravan, would love to hear some advice on what would be a good vehicle for this scenario. Currently I have a 2L diesel for the caravan and long trips and a Smart EQ for daily trips, but would be great to back to one vehicle
As the owner of a Rav4 PHEV, I disagree - I think PHEV is the best of both worlds, not the worst of both worlds. Yes it's heavy and complex, but Toyota has perfected this technology over 20+ years, and with ~45 miles EV range, we are basically driving an EV 28 days a month. When we take a longer trip (here in the US, driving 400+ miles during a weekend getaway is not unusual) we don't even think about charging stations - we can easily live with having to fill the gas tank a couple of times a year, which is only a couple of times more than the owner of a pure EV. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good! We get 90+mpg all-in and the only charging we do is at home with a regular wall outlet while we sleep.
Not sure if they had Chevy Volt in the UK. I've owned a 2014 Volt and now a 2018 Volt which gets 50-60 miles just on battery, Then the gas engine takes over after that. I do at least 90% of my driving on electric because 50-60 miles is enough for that. I usually only use the gas engine for long trips. But it's there when I need it. Yes it's kind of a transition car before going fully electric. And they don't sell them anymore. But why is the Chevy Volt still practical now? As I said, I do 90% of my driving on electric so it almost seems like a full electric. You can still buy a used one for $20K - $25K USD. To get the cheapest Tesla now costs you about $50K. Do you want to spend that? Also a Volt has a pretty lot of room inside and it's a hatchback. Compare that to Chevy Bolt, Leaf, and other small electric cars. This makes the Volt unique IMO. But isn't it stupid to carry around the extra weight of a gas motor that you almost never use? Well if you have a fully electric car with a range of 250 miles or more (the Volt gets over 300 total miles, BTW) then you're carrying around the extra weight of that big battery most of which you may never use. So it's the same thing. This video fails to point that out. Charge time? I charge overnight in my garage so it doesn't matter.
I have a Toyota Chr Hybrid, love it and I judge it worthwhile as I went from 35mpg in my old Mazda to 57-63mpg+ in the hybrid, hopefully the next car in a few years will be full electric, and hopefully the charging network will have improved and expanded by then.
Same here, a year ago I went from a 2009 diesel CRV to a 2017 C-HR self charging hybrid and it’s brilliant. Average 58mpg but can get into high 60’s. Yes I would like a pure electric car, but simply couldn’t afford one as what I would want is twice the price. I will keep the C-HR for a few years & then change. Point worth noting, I bought used so the car already existed and so CO2 had already been used building it.
If you can plug in at home or a daily work plug (or a very reliable, super-local multi-stall DC charging hub), AND your part of the world has very plentiful reliable DC options serving longer trips, obviously full BEV is the way to go (if you can afford one, new or used). BUT - if you get out of your 1st world bubble for a second - there are still many regions in Europe and elsewhere in the world where DC infrastructure is sparse (or non existent) and can't be relied upon, but where car owners can nevertheless plug in at home and get 30 to 50 miles of daily all-electric range, covering most of their annual mileage. In these regions, obviously a BEV cannot yet function as a family's "only car" (most car owning households worldwide only have one car). So the non-fantasy-land choice these folks face is ICE or PHEV (or perhaps BEV with REX). Are you seriously saying PHEVs (/ BEV with REX) should not be chosen over an ICE-only car for people in this situation? At the end of the day, the goal is transforming an increasing share of societies' combustion miles to electric miles, towards 100%. At this still-in-progress stage, PHEVs are still a relevant (if temporary and transitional) stage along that transformation, for some folks, in some regions. This will only change when reliable, affordable, and easy-to-use, multi-stall DC charging is commonplace in all regions, and that will take another few years at least. Have you looked at the huge area of mid-Wales recently - still no multi-stall DC stations!
I was looking to buy a used PHEV but now I will get a ICE vehicle. I feel that EVs are still out of my price range, at least one that can be used as my one and only car, here in Texas you can drive 500 miles and not find a DC or AC chartering station... unless you find someone willing to let you use one of their house hold plugs to use... and the best you will get is 1800w an hour if your lucky.
The most outstanding feature of the Prius, and the least understood, is it's transmission. There are no belts, no clutches and it still offers 100% variable ratio.
There is also NO physical changing of gears in any way. It is as mechanically unchanging and bulletproof a system as a differential. The variable effective gear ration the ICE sees is entirely created by changing the speed of the electric motors, which are varied to create the illusion of having changed gears. In reality, the gears are in a fixed relationship in a planetary gear system, with the output of course being the wheel speed, and the two inputs being electric motor speed and the two inputs being electric motor speed and ICE speed.
Every time I return to this series, it manages to disappoint. No clear explanations, just a narcissist with a disorganised mind spewing his self-admiration into a video.
My 2012 Prius is what got me infected with the EV bug! I loved going a mile at 35mph on total battery power (always feathering the accelerator to keep it under 40). Fast forward to 2017 -- our power company offered $10k off MSRP on top of the $7,500 US federal tax credit and I bought a Nissan LEAF S which was so relaxing to drive -- it was so quiet, so smooth. The only issue was the range deterioration over 5 years (especially in Winter on the US east coast). My wife got the EV bug from my LEAF and decided to purchase a 2021 Tesla Model Y. I love driving that car for the wow factor (and that is has so much nice space!), but it would be a lot of car for my 20 mile daily commute. This year, after 5 years of LEAF ownership, the CRAZY used car market in the US and the lower price on the 2022 LEAF helped me make my decision to buy a 2022 LEAF SV, and I LOVE the driving experience! I can't imagine ever going back to even a hybrid at this point. EV is a way of life!
For me Hybrid was a great option moving from petrol just to test out the waters, to see if i enjoy it. And i dont have to dive straight in to thinking and stressing about charging and all that right away. So it was a great steeping stone. I went from BMW E92 to a Audi A3 e-tron (hybrid). And now im driving a Tesla Model 3 :) So i would actually recommend if you are not sure about EVs to get yourself a Hybrid first and see if you like it and also to see how everything works with charging and stuff. And cuz its a Hybrid you dont have to stress about charging. And when you get used to it then hope over to a pure EV. So if you are not sure, its a great in the middle option IMO of course.
Can't really argue with that. What I would say is that it's quite a costly stepping stone. There are so many services out there now that enable you to rent an EV for a month or two to see whether you can make it work or not. I wonder, if you'd had the chance to test out a Tesla straight out of your BMW, whether you'd have decided to go full 'leccy right away
I often wonder if most PHEV owners actually bother to plug the car in most of the time. With a BEV plugging in is just habitual and if you forgot then you could not drive it whereas to a PHEV owner plugging in might just seem a bit of a hassle.
Hybrid is still a great option even today, it offers way more capabilities than a BEV, you can easily bring your hybrid car overlanding or camping where an EV will never go, there are tons of plus with hybrids.
@@robsengahay5614 yes they actually plug their cars, what’s the purpose of using it without charging!? You get amazing fuel economy and your engine doesn’t work often…..
I've found that the idea of buying an EV is great if you have the money to do so. A lot of people could really use something that is economical to run and is low maintenance, but the high up front cost leave them having to purchase a used ICE car as that is all they can afford.
I tried to buy a BEV in Thailand 2 years ago which came with a wall charger included. The install company refused to install it as I had solar saying that solar could not charge an electric car - lost my deposit. Eventually was allowed to buy a PHEV with 70km of electric range. So now 95% of my driving is powered by sunshine. There’s a lot of ignorance out there!
Do they not have lawyers in Thailand? Or electricians? Or did you misunderstand what they were telling you about your too-small electric panel? Your story sounds fishy.
Still love my mild hybrid 2013 Honda Insight Facelift. Even after so many years, original IMA battery and brake pads still going strong :)!! 16-20 km/L average, 5 mins refuelling, pretty efficient city or highway and peace of mind . .
7:12 - The original “PiP” - Plug-in Prius - was indeed pretty dubious, but the current “Prius PHV,” or “Prius Prime,” as its called here in North America, really is a sweet spot: - I see 25-30 miles on a charge, - 4.6 miles/KWh on electric, - 55MPG (US - about 65 MPG UK) on petrol, and - Its 8.8KWh battery only adds ~4% weight to the car. The Volt was conceptually nicer at 50+ miles per charge, but ultimately it wasn’t very good at either: only around 3.25 miles/KWh and 42ish miles per US gallon. Its battery was too heavy in gasoline operation, and its engine was too heavy in electric operation.
What bothers me the most is the fact that the plug-in hybrids, despite their complexity, are cheaper than pure EV's. The slow charging is a total red herring - when using the limited electric range for a commute, most people will charge overnight at home.
I don’t think hybrids are actually that complex. I recall an article about Toyota hybrids and the entire electric assembly is 28kg including batteries. It goes to show that batteries are the main cost. As for charging, it depends what you do with your car. We would mostly charge at home, but I do occasionally travel 130 miles to visit family and friends. On the last trip I took note of charger availability and none were available at hotels, shopping centres or pubs.
Yeah exactly you obviously charge it at home. An EV with all the trimmings is still gonna be £10k more. If they have ICEs in the same range then the economies of scale keep the cost down.
@@sargfowler9603 that's why I'm getting a PHEV, they are looking to build out the charging network over the next few years so I will leave them to it, while I get used to charging but don't have to plan my trip around finding a plug that isn't in use. They advertise with 0-80% charge in 18 minutes! But that’s with the 350kw chargers, of which there are only 14 ionity ones in the UK, with plans to build 7,000 but they don't exist yet.
@@sargfowler9603 Just a thought, my EV has a 280 mile range. I also drive 130 miles to visit friends, and have never needed to charge on the trip there or back, just at home before and after.
@@VexedFilms 12,000 miles driven so far in my EV, fuel saving is £2,670, and it cost £8k more than the same spec petrol version. 40k should break even.
I have a Toyota Yaris Hybrid and for what I need it works very well, the fuel economy is really good (has never gone below 55mpg) and it is cool running on battery power in the city. However, my next car will definitely be BEV!
@@toby9999 I bought a 5 year old Toyota Auris TS Hybrid in 2020, for 10.000 euro. Absolutely nothing wrong with it and a very decent fuel economy. I think that now the fleet-sales of EV's are on the rise, there will be plenty of ex-fleet hybrids of 3, 4 or 5 years old coming onto the second hand market. Here in Europe, ex-fleet cars are usually well maintained, low mileage and high specs. And decent price too. And the looks and technology of three to five years ago, isn't old-fashioned yet. So all in all quite an attractive alternative to buying new.
55mpg is basically what I got from my 2005 Peugeot 206SW. There are more recent diesel cars which achieve far better mpg than that. It's hard to se what you're gaining by having an expensive and complex hybrid.
I got one of these for my parents. It was good for the very limited amount of driving they did although I certainly wouldn't say it always does better than 55mpg. You also have to be very wary of the 12v battery running down if you leave it standing for a few days.
The plug-in hybrid is the technology which best suits my needs at the moment. Lots of 5-10 mile local stuff during the week meaning I don;t have to cold-start the engine and use no fuel for those, and I have a 500 mile round trip most weekends which I can do without worrying about recharge time
I think your use case is one of those that fully justifies the existence of PHEV. I always think of someone who has a 30-mile round trip commute, but who has a relative who lives a long way away, who they might want to get to in an emergency - they don't want to worry/wait about charging in that situation.
I also have a plug in hybrid. It's 20 miles to work. But on some occasions I have to drive to another location in Devon. An don't want to be sitting around waiting for a car to charge. And for the people going to say we'll you need to stop to use the lavatory yes I do it takes five minutes then off again. And it's my own personal car. And every EV I looked at with enough range the price was stupid. And would also still need at least 2 charges.
If you stop for a comfort break each way on that journey & do so at somewhere with decent chargers a 500 mile round trip should not be an issue if you leave home charged get a quick stop at your comfort break & also a little top up at your destination. Remember you’re doing other things when charging.
Harry Speakup: The alternative for your situation is two vehicles which would mean two times rego, insurance, maintenance, garaging etc... doesn't need too much thought to decide the hybrid has got a place in your life! Ours certainly has. :o) Given time, there will be a BEV that will do what you need, both new and used.
@@jonblacklock1052 That's so dumb, trying to find a place with good chargers when you need to piss. It you gotta go you gotta go. Also not sure what these 'other things' you are talking about are. Yes I'm sure you can find other things to do when charging but that's not the point.
The main issue with Electric compared to PHEV that I don't feel they really got into is the price and insurance difference for an equivalent sized car. Both thr purchase cost and insurance are significantly higher for Electric vs PHEV. I'm looking into buying a new car right now and need to up size due to kids and I desperately want to convince my wife we should go electric, so I actually put a spreadsheet together of the lifetime costs including the purchase cost to try and convince her that EVs were worth it due yo the savings, but even for the cheapest family sized EV I could find with a range over 200 miles (we do a lot of driving holidays to remoteish parts of the UK) the cheapest comes out at about £26k, but I can get a low milage used Ioniq PEHV for £18k and it would take over 10 years for the lower running costs of the EV to make it a cheaper option that the Ioniq. Even frugal 1.0L Turbo petrol family cars come out cheaper than an equivalent sized EV over a 10 year period. And the massive recent energy price hikes have made that even worse. So until used EVs start becoming more comparable in price they will remain less financially viable than PHEVs on lifetime cost.
Cost is the main reason I've decided to run my current 1.2 petrol until it dies. Maintenance is higher but I can't really charge at home easily, so the cost of using rapids would be similar to petrol. We get about 50mpg on long trips. My wife uses the car for work so she really needs a range of at least 150miles. It would also cost me a few thousand to trade in for an EV hence why I'm waiting for now. I'm starting to wonder if it would work out better to buy a small cheap EV for day to day use and just keep the petrol car for long trips. Obviously it will cost more to run 2 cars but the wear will be spread out so 🤷
Great conversation and interesting to hear your thinking ….. however as the owner of a ‘self charging’ Toyota hybrid I have to say that out here in the countryside of rural Cornwall a ‘self charging’ hybrid makes a lot of sense. With minimal charging network available the Toyota system just makes sense, giving you excellent fuel economy and low CO2 emissions while having no range anxiety for longer trips. I would agree with you entirely about the benefits of a BEV if I was living in a city area with good charging facilities, but the reality of living outside cities is that the network is just not good enough yet.
@@ianmurray250 This is a question that the industry and government need to ask. There are a reasonable percentage of homes that could not have home charging. I 100% can not. My mums house has its own parking space, but it is separated from the property by a public pathway. The parking space is also technically still council property. My Dads place would involve resurfacing a long disused dirt track and knocking down not only his shed and his immediate neighbours sheds but sheds, garages and fences along the entire 1/8 mile track. The track belongs to everybody who backs onto it for the bit that they back onto. A lot of the garages have become irrelevant down that track with cars getting so much bigger over the years. There is still a very long way to go before BEV can be relevant for everyone at the same time.
I find the "BEV only!" attitude so elitist and irritating. A PHEV is a brilliant way to help more households slash their emissions without a huge investment. Rather than 100 kwh of battery being consumed by a single (and usually very expensive) BEV, auto makers can split that up 5 ways and build 5 PHEVs with a 20kwh battery. That would allow 5 households to enjoy 50 gas-free miles every day, while only burning gas for occasional road trips. PHEVs don't require building a EV charger network, and at home you don't need a fast charger - you can just plug it into a standard outlet and it will charge overnight. They are a turn key solution to slashing emissions. If the government promoted PHEV adoption, we could slash emissions now. Instead we're creating huge price pressure on battery prices because of these "BEV only!" folks that are convinced that shoving 100 kwh batteries into every single car is the "only" solution. It is not, and it's a very wasteful use of rare minerals, as 80 if those kwh are rarely used. Share them with 4 other cars instead! Enough with this battery hogging mentality. PHEVs are more practical, require no charger infrastructure, and far more affordable to build. There aren't enough batteries to support everyone going full EV. Continuing to ignore this reality is only going to inflate battery demand and inflate prices - making even PHEVs too expensive for most households. Let's instead "share the battery cells!" And encourage more 20 kWh PHEV adoption to slash global gas consumption more quickly and affordably.
BEV owners tend to have the follower mindset and a constant need to justify their purchase due to low self esteem. Just do what everyone else does: ignore them.
From the US, I kinda laughed at the both interest and researched opinions that balk at the idea of a vehicle that takes advantage of the current fuel systems AND the current battery tech systems. Hybrids is what we need right now. Can you imagine where everyone used 50%-60% less gas and way less pollution, in an affordable package (compared to long range EV)? Plug ins have the best of both worlds, and the worst. They are between ICE and EV in every category. They are indeed not a transitional tech, but a blended class of itself. Hybrid systems have been used on trains and passenger buses successfully. The thing is, the dream infrastructure for EV's is still decades into transitioning everyone, and never happen due to how our transport systems work anyway. The idea that hybrids are "old tech" is funny, because ev's have been around as long as ICE. Hybrids are the newest form of powertrain. And no, plug-ins dont really have range issues. The Chevy Volt, for example, has 40-70 miles, depending on the model, full electric which is more than enough for daily driving, and over 400 mile range, which you cannot get in a lot of ICE cars, and you have to sell a kidney to get in EV's, and it cost way less than anything but the budget short range EV's that are pure commuter vehicles. Imagine driving an EV, which is far more pollutive to produce than an ICE car, and think pretentiously that its superior to other technology. EV's are awesome, but their only an option, not a solution.
Picked up an Hyundai Ioniq 5 in November and its been pretty good so far. That said the dealer was more keen on selling me a large hybrid SUV instead, so I think your comments around dealer margin, plus associated serving costs is very valid.
Nobody can get as many EV's to sell as they would like. Demand is going to usurp supply for the next couple of years from what I read. They have to try to get you into something they can actually GET>
I a Farmer in rural north Dorset transitioning to electric, however I need to tow heavy weight! you just dismissed people like me who look at the PHEV as a transition because, simply electric can't pull 3500kgs please don't disrespect us trying to do the right thing - other than that great job...
OK so we ordered a Citroen E-C4 this week having visited a few dealerships looking at EV options. Every time the dealers wanted to talk about hybrids. In my head I was "We're not buying a ******** hybrid!!!"
The dealership model is broken for the exact reason you mention. They want to steer you to a combustion engine or hybrid car, where they can sell you service which makes up 60% of the profit at the dealership. Buying an EV is literally an obstacle course and a constantly reminding the dealer, NO, I am NOT here to buy a combustion engine car, nor a Hybrid... for the 100th time...
3 years ago I drove a Subaru Impreza WRX. A mate gave me a go in his i3 and I was instantly smitten so I leased a Kia Soul EV for a couple of years and now own a 9 year old 24kWh LEAF which was cheap to buy, pence to run and I still find it a fun daily driver despite only doing 60 miles per charge. I don't need or want a PHEV or HEV
I have two PHEVs and they are fantastic. Around town i use 0 gasoline but i have to drive 500 mile trips 2 to 4 times a month. I understand this is a niche use case but theres an ass for every seat and PHEVs work great for me at the moment. Will go full BEV once 400mi range options are reasonably priced.
What works for me is a combination of an e-bike for short journeys, and a 2nd hand ULEZ compliant petrol car for the occasional longer trip (only about 1,000 miles a year). I don't need an electric car but, if I did, I'd want to buy the new X-bus, with the solar roof that would probably mean that I might never need to "plug in". Great discussion format, by the way; I'd like you guys to do more videos like this.
Your missing the point of phevs. They're infrastructure transition vehicles. I live where it's still hard to find chargers and spend a few weeks / year no where near them. At home I charge from a 120v outlet and that's enough for day to day.
A regular hybrid is probably still the best option for someone who lives in an apartment and has no good charging-at-home options. I also see many people dismiss PHEVs as being too compromised - and that can make sense from the perspective of someone who lives in a more urban built out area with good car charging options, which many people do. But a PHEV can make a lot more sense for people who live in rural areas and occasionally need to travel long distances. I own an i3 Rex and I use the ICE once every couple months, often travelling to places that have little to no charging options.
At the time of changing from a diesel car, an ampera was the best electric car I could afford. 28 days of the month I don’t use petrol, but for the same price I could have only got an old leaf with 80 mile range. Price is so important when having these discussions.
my main concern with fully electric is battery degradation down the line is it going to make sense to buy a fully electric car that's 5-6 years old? especially the way some of them are built like a i phone where when the battery goes get a new phone I feel manufacturer's need to make that part easier to replace and deal with. still want a tesla though!
With this episode I was glad to see your channel at least try to deal with an inconvenient truth. That for the average non-wealthy driver that needs a car for commuting a PHEV makes much more sense than full BEV. The reason is simple: they are much cheaper. I own a VOLT that I use to commute 30 miles per day with. I drive fully electric about 95% of the time. It cost me half of what a Tesla would and was what I could afford. This is a litmus test really. If your channel is truly interested in decarbonizing auto transportation you would embrace this inconvenient truth and stop pretending that you miss the point. Until we get the $25K BEV (something only the chinese seem to be interested in) we will get nowhere in popularizing greener transportation.
Same here, I rented a Tesla Model 3 for 36 hours and then bought a 2019 Chevy Volt...an awesome machine for commuting and hauling crap. Hatchbacks are my favorite type of car, and with the seats down it has a tremendous amount of cargo space. I have been driving a Toyota Corolla the past 3 weeks while on assignment for work and I am HUGELY disappointed in it's driveability, performance, and environmental systems. The 2021 Corolla takes FOREVER to get heat, and then it's still never very warm. The front defroster is absolute crap, it can't keep up with freezing rain. I cannot wait to get back into my Volt. I drive 60% on electric over it's lifetime. I feel like I have the best of both worlds. Electricity costs are going to continue to climb so there will not be a cost savings driving electric.
Thank you for your discussion There is a philosophy distinction between 2 sorts of PHEV which I would like to highlight, and it comes down to the audience they are for 1) The electric motor is there to improve performance on an already large car (usually SUV) and it cannot be set to ONLY use electric - so that if you put your foot down it has to bring in the ICE engine. Effectively the electric motor is not powerful enough for everyday usage. First problem is that the ICE engine is used intermittently resulting in worst case scenario for emissions and resulted in a number of studies that PHEV are worse than ICE. It is much more a problem of the philosophy of the car design - it is made wrong. Too many PHEV cars are now like this as they are just big SUV cars with electric motors too small to use as an EV, only there to make their car faster. 2) The electric motor is easily enough to power the car in normal use even at highway speeds and can be used so that the ICE engine is locked out - so you hoof it and just use the EV part as an EV. In this case the EV can be used for short journeys and the ICE engine never turns on for this. The car can be used as a short range EV, and ICE for long journeys for people making the transition to full EV. Only this type of car will make people have that "ahh" moment and realise how nice full EV is, but give them time to adapt.
Interesting talk. I’ve always advocated PHEV’s over non plug in variants because of the fact that you have to use fuel to charge them, which is still more expensive than the electricity you put in to a battery. I will be getting a golf GTE again, as most journeys are sub 30 miles but I quite regularly do a lot more. I could get a pure electric vehicle (that’s pretty ugly) for less than this will cost but couldn’t afford a full electric Vw at the moment. (I can’t afford two cars so can’t afford a smaller range EV AND a petrol car for longer journeys). I think the fact that I can drastically cut down my emissions and fuel by doing the majority of driving electrically is great.
Got an Honda Insight in 2009. Which was fantastic, didn't have one problem in 12 years, and was sold in brand new conditions. But even at that time, I got an hybrid simply because having a full blown BEV would have been costly and problematic, if possible. Purely ICE cars just become old-tech and stopped being interesting to me. Same is now for PHEVs: they were nice, sure, but just for a brief while, years ago. Now, not anymore.
I’m glad you brought up the issue with dealerships not wanting to sell you an EV. I went to a Kia dealership in Workington, Cumbria to look at the eNiro and was told, "oh you don’t want one of them, get the hybrid ". I was stunned by that one. But not stunned by the ignorance of dealerships in this county. I will never purchase another car here. Just as an example, my current car, from a couple of weeks of ownership the sat nav was saying I was driving in the Irish Sea but some 30 miles or so. My dealer took the car in several times and fixed nothing. When I took it is again the technician came running out to me before I had even got out of my car (I had an appointment, too) and he said "you might as well go, there’s nothing we can do - the problem is not with your car but it’s with the satellites themselves". What utter bollocks. So SEAT of Workington, if you’re reading this, shame on you. You’ve lost a customer.
You've convinced me! Going for a Kia e-Niro. As a long time Red Dwarf fan, now searching for my next car, I was delighted to find this series. And as a newly converted Electric car fan, I have subscribed and will keep watching! Oh and if Robert happens to see this.... Best delivered line in all of RD: "I'm fine thank you Susan!"
This is one of the channels that encouraged me to purchase my Nissan Leaf in 2015. At 131,000 miles I opted to replace the 24 kWh battery pack with a 62 kWh pack last March. Great reliability and operational affordability.
On the point about stale gas, I know that the Chevy Volt will actually force the gas/petrol engine to run periodically for that very reason as well as to keep things in good mechanical shape (periodic lubrication, etc). Don't know what the frequency is of that, but it is something that engineers thought of and planned for.
Sounds obvious, really. "We are designing a car that is supposed to only rarely use that engine in it, maybe we should make sure the engine will actually run when needed?" There are occasional cases where something has slipped by everyone, but generally the companies making big expensive things are paying some very smart and well educated people huge salaries to make sure any potential problems are solved long before some random commenter on TH-cam starts asking something like "but how will solar work at night?".
@@clasqm Sounds about right. I was considering getting a used i3 REX when looking for a good deal on used EVs, but I found a lot of people LOVED the i3 but had lots of problems with the REX version. The non-REX version was desirable but just slightly more than what I wanted to pay, even used. One other issue that I was concerned about, and this is sad, is that the i3 LOOKS like an electric car and there are a lot of haters out there who will vandalize just because. The one I ended up with, a 2016 Kia Soul EV+, looks basically identical to the gas version with only tiny differences that most people won't even notice.
@@JustWasted3HoursHere Better than during the day actually, due to not overheating from the sunlight. Of course, the only people getting useful amounts of power from them are those using their "solar" powered calculators under a desk lamp. Funny how the photovoltaic effect has been known for about a century and PV panels have been used to produce power for decades, but calling it something like photonic power or light energy instead of solar power still sounds like a made up thing from some scifi show.
For a different view I'm a motability customer and I've always gone with ICE cars (mainly down to the lack of BEV cars at the time) as I'm disabled, I rarely drive great distances, just pottering about generally so I'm definitely going to go BEV on my next car purely because I only drive short distances with no real range worries, plus the added cost of fuel and maintenance of ICE cars etc. I can just charge it and probably have a week or twos range between charges, and as I'm at home a lot charging isn't going to be an issue for me personally. The biggest advancement that has to happen is the improvement of the charging stations especially with quick/rapid charging bays. More bays placed in towns and city centers, and even supermarkets/shopping malls across the UK. Excellent video guys 👌
Do you have any concerns about the accessibility of chargers? I'm disabled but not yet a wheelchair user, had concerns about the weight of the combined port and lead. I have seen some very small women cope with them but in my experience very small woman are very strong! I do wonder if wheelchair users have any problems reading the screen or reaching the rfid scanner or the charge lead itself....? Not had experience of charging stations to be able to make judgement yet, as it my wife goes to the petrol station but that's more about the brain fog... a whole other story!
@@judebrown4103 that is a very good question. Before making a decision on a BEV (I'm not due a car change until next year) I will definitely need to consider where all my local charging points are first, I'm not a wheelchair user myself but I could see how that would be difficult for people in that position, I'm guessing in that case you'd need to ask someone from the garage to help you with charging or always charge from home overnight, but not ideal if you're traveling long distances I suppose. Fortunately at present I don't have an issue with my hands/arms so picking up and connecting chargers isn't an issue for me, I just have use of walking sticks so for me I can't see it being much different to lifting and using a petrol pump where also the readouts are high up so again I would guess that anyone that's currently able bodied enough to use a petrol pump will not face any more difficulty when using electric charge points. I've also wondered how people would get on that live in blocks of flats or tower blocks as there's no way you could have a charge box fitted or charge from your home, in that case you'd have to live pretty near to a charging station.
@@Addixxtion Probably worth getting the loan of a car first. We qualify for full Motability and in terms of all electric, the two MGs, the Kona and the Soul seem like the four to look at.
I drive over 1200 miles a week as a field engineer. I cannot see any realistic way to achieve this in any electric car, regardless of me seeing the benefits. The car I use at the moment is perfect for the job, a Diesel Passat estate. I can charge its 60+ liter fuel tank and drive for 600 - 700 miles on a charge (Fuel). Due to government regulation and my need to be able to drive this didtance , I have had to order a Plug in Hybrid costing £53K...It will do approximately 300 - 350 miles on a 50 liter tank of Petrol. This is going to be frustrating. The electric range is a quoted 40 miles (read 25). You rant about Diesel, but I have gone from a 60-70mpg Diesel to a 35mpg Petrol.. Great!! With the cost of the car and the fuel to my business will almost double how is this helping the environment to use twice the fuel to do the same task. You say get electric instead...What car can carry a full engineer tool kit including parts that fill a Passat estate and still travel 600 miles on a charge? I travel 300 miles in a day regularly at motorway speeds. The electric cars that quote that kind of distance are prohibitivly expensive or too small for the task. Then come cold winter days the 300 mile range is 200 miles due to cold. We are not at a point where I can possibly use or afford an electric vehicle and yet I have been forced to choose a Petrol Hybrid car (Due to the Diesel car tax being at 35% vs 11%) that is worse (compromised by design) than anything that I had before. The working people are being forced to compromise or have an inferior range for much more money. The EV evangelists are going to wreck the businesses of people and services that rely on cost effective transport of people and goods. I think EV's are good, but not for everyone and this should be understood.
We have the PHEV Chrysler Pacifica and love it. I would love to have a BEV, but finding a vehicle to fit a family of 6 that isn't a $100k+ Model X doesn't exist. In the warmer months, we go for weeks without using gas. Even in winter, our fuel usage is very low. Really, our primary use of the ICE is for inter-city or longer road trips. Using a renewable energy provider, we can keep our footprint reduced for the vast majority of our daily travel. If, for some reason, we needed a second car, we definitely wouldn't hesitate to go straight to BEV. I eagerly await the introduction of a BEV minivan, but I expect that may not really be a reality until enough of the kids are gone that we can downsize to a standard BEV.
The Prius drivetrain is still a masterpiece and have not been done better yet. I drive an electric car too, I skipped the hybrids, but I still admire that drivetrain. PHEV is mostly useful for people needing lots of energy, like big 4x4s and towing and stuff, to at least make some progress, for example in the US. In a passenger car though, I would skip it. Mild-hybrid is a nice little system which should've been on cars for over 15 years, since it is a stripped down dumb version of a Prius drivetrain.
Completely disagreee - the Prius PHEV has leading efficiency in both modes and is relatively cheap and very reliable. It will divide petrol use overall by 4, but uses only one tenth of the battery of a full BEV - with batteries in short supply, this makes them compelling.
Hybrids aren't more expensive than pure EVs. They're much cheaper, especially if you look at one a couple of years old like most people do. I'd love an EV, but the range and lack/reliability of charging stations worries me a great deal. I honestly can't see it improving for many years to come. My next car will be petrol or possibly hybrid, but it won't be a pure EV just yet.
Last year I swapped my 1.4L petrol Suzuki Vitara for a “mild hybrid” 1L petrol version, it was quite a bit more expensive than the previous version of the car I owned, but I thought that “it would pay for itself in fuel savings” I instantly felt like I’d been conned the MPG was exactly the same as the normal petrol version, so I was paying for a more expensive car and still putting the same amount of petrol in, it didn’t help that petrol prices have gone up so much, anyway I got rid of that Suzuki and got a Dacia Duster, not electric I know but when one cheap enough and practical enough comes around, I’m hoping my next car will be an electric one!
Here's a contrarian view to chew on (and spit out if you don't like it). I live in Oregon in the US. Oregon is slightly larger than the UK in land area. Our population is 3.8 million (more or less; less one someone dies and more when someone is born or moves here from California). The population density is about 15 humans per square kilometer. You can compare this to the UK numbers. I live in the Portland Metro area which has the highest population density in the state. There are virtually no public charging stations in my area. There are a few public charging stations scattered about the Metro area. "Who cares?", you say. And you'd be right; most people charge their BEVs, often Teslas (you can't throw a beer can out the window without hitting a Tesla around here), at home. If driving in the Metro area is all you do a BEV is a perfectly good solution. My wife and I are retired and we like to travel. If the public charging infrastructure in Portland is thin take a guess what the charging infrastructure is in the rest of the state (where very few people live)? Nonexistent. Imagine trying to take a driving trip around Oregon in a BEV. It's easy to run up a 1,000 or 1,500 miles on a big loop around the state. If you stay at campgrounds there is no facility for charging. If you stay in motels there are no chargers in the parking lots (and maybe none in the town you're in). This is the state of things within Oregon. Now consider traveling to a wider region including Washington and Idaho. These are often destinations for our trips. Recently we traveled to Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana. I'm not sure we stayed anywhere that had a public charging station. That trip was mostly along state highways and local roads. I don't think we even saw a charging station along the way. Anywhere. You might point out that people travel all over the country in Teslas and you'd be correct. But to do that you have to stick to the Interstate Highways (in Oregon those are I-5 and I-84). But get off those highways and travel to the scenic areas and you are back in the charging desert. At the beginning of 2021 we examined the various BEV and PHEV options and did some route planning. We concluded that travel around this part of the US is simply not practical in a BEV (unless you buy a Tesla and stick to the Interstate Highways). Narrowing the search to Hybrids and PHEV choices we looked at our local daily driving. Turns out that a PHEV with about a 20 mile electric range would cover 90% of our local driving. Assuming we could charge at home we could avoid burning gasoline for most local driving but be able to do long trips around our area without needing to cobble together some ridiculous charging arrangements. We're not looking to reenact the "Long Way Up" on our vacations. We wound up choosing a BMW PHEV with about 20 miles of electric range. It's worked out wonderfully for us. We usually only have to buy gasoline once a month or so and we do almost all our local driving on electric. In Hybrid mode the car (it's actually a medium sized crossover) gets much better mileage than the gasoline only version of the same car. If the goal is to reduce fuel consumption and still retain the ability to travel long distances than the PHEV we drive is a very good solution (even if, as you point out, the solution is inelegant). Yes, we haul around an engine and battery pack (the electric drive train has to hall the engine and gasoline and the gasoline engine has to haul the batteries). But as long as we're not using much gasoline I don't see the problem. The charging Nirvana you seem to have in the UK will not be coming to the US anytime soon. Nor do I wish to own two vehicles, one for city driving that I charge at home, and one for long trips. Why should I have to pay to have two vehicles? Recently we found out that Oregon's 2022 portion of the $1 trillion infrastructure spending bill for charging stations is about $7 million. That isn't going to make much of a dent in the public charging situation in the state. Even receiving that amount for the five years of the bill's spending lifetime won't be very noticeable. Most of the chargers will be installed in cities where they are generally not needed but are more visible (i.e. more politically useful). To draw this long story to a close I would urge you to take a less demeaning attitude towards hybrid and PHEV solutions. Given the mission of Fully Charged I'd say your position on PHEVs is a bit self serving. Consider that not everyone who subscribes to FC is able to make do with a BEV but is still interested in the technology and market. Try not to label those of use who, after careful analysis, decide that a PHEV (or hybrid) is the most practical solution as dullards unable to appreciate the elegance and rightness of BEVs. When the charging infrastructure in our area supports long distance travel by BEV I'll buy one. Until then please keep educating me, but save the snarky condescending attitude. It doesn't do the rest of your efforts any favors.
8:08 "Driving around with a ton and a half of engine and gearbox". Robert, if you want to pontificate about PHEVs then at least use realistic figures. Since when does an engine and gearbox in a Crossover vehicle weighing 1930Kg with 4wd and an electric motor, charger and batteries sufficient for 28 miles have a petrol engine and gearbox weighing 1500Kg.? To achieve 4WD with a BEV you need two motors and two sets of drive components, so this offsets to some extent the weight penalty of having an engine as well as an electric motor. You are also ignoring the fact that in order to get a realistic range between charges in a BEV it is necessary to have large battery packs which are only needed for longer trips, so most of the time you are dragging around heavy and expensive batteries that you don't need. For comparison, a dual motor (4WD) tesla X weighs in at circa 2,400Kg compared with a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV at circa 1,930Kg. So the Tesla has a weight penalty of 470Kg. Come on Robert, let's get the facts straight and not quote ridiculous figures to trap the casual watcher. For the record, I am a fan of BEVs, but until Battery Swapping is a reality I think the concept is flawed for many potential users.
I contacted Toyota and they told me that their hybrid drives on the battery 80% of the time. These dirgusting liars really claimed they invented the perpetuum mobile.
80% of the TIME means if u are sitting in City at a red line it counds as electric time !.. so in city they numbers are correct because u stop very often and in slow traffic it goes EV... They mean 80% of time not 80% of distance :D
I drive a 2 litre Corolla hybrid estate. The brochure claims it drives on electric 50% of the time. From my experience over the last year I'd say that's about right. Between 55 to 63 mpg without trying hard. Astonishingly roomy inside, better than the average SUV. Top drawer reliability. Next step, a Toyota BEV I guess
My Toyota Auris Hybrid is standing still for 98% of the time. Can't beat that for fuel efficiency! But seriously: It really never drives fully electric in normal traffic. Only in slow moving traffic, it might do a few kilometers full electric. As soon as you touch the throttle, the petrol engine kicks in. But the electric engine is always supporting in the background, so in the end it is 1,5 to 2 times more fuel efficient than a comparable ICE-only car.
@@Gooikes in the city ! and not on the Highway or urban roads... And as soon as you want to drive a bit sporty the gas consumption is like a ICE car because even for starts in the city the electric motor can only start slow and not fast
I was quite happy with my Opel Ampera, it is real more on the electic side. To me it is all about the desing. The German and Korean manufacturers regulerly use their traditionel drive train, throw in a pancake motor and a battery. That is a heavy desing and I see the criticism there. However the Japanese use a hybrid transmission with a few gears and a spiced up electric motor, for there PHEVs. moreover the use of a smaler ICE is possible, since a bigger battery can provide the average power demand. That´s not the whole story, but I think it is possible to built a PHEV that´s more efficient than the cars we see currently on the market.
I’m in the States, and I live in the northwest where the temp drops to dangerous levels in the winter. I feel like a plug-in Hybrid would fit my climate better, and since I live in a rural area, a gas/petrol option not only ensures I can travel regionally, but I can also take a 1600 mile trip in the same vehicle- right now, charging stations are few and far between where I am.
I think a range extended EV that uses the waste heat from burning petrol to warm the car passenger cab and battery in winter as well as charging the battery would be good in colder parts of the world.
@@danielstapler4315 I disagree. The world doesn't need millions of small-engine "range extenders" lacking the technology of real automobile engines. I advise a "real PHEV" with a real automotive ICE, if you're going to have any ICE in a vehicle, whether you want one for propulsion, heat, charging, or anything else. Even the Chevy Volt engine was a crappy compromise. Longer EV range than Prius Prime, but when it ran out, then you were getting 33mpg vs 54mpg. In a really cold climate, it makes sense to have an ICE, HEV, or PHEV. I live in New Hampshire, with cold winters and a Prius Prime PHEV. I'm sure that the car is designed to protect its battery, which means it won't charge when really cold. So I double down on that, and simple leave it at a medium state of charge and use HV mode anytime it's been below freezing in the last day or so, to avoid the chance that the battery temp sensor(s) don't pick up the coldest part of the battery, and then try jamming in too much charge rate at too low a temp. I don't want to damage the battery in winter if the battery has an odd pattern of some modules heating up faster/slower than others, or even find out he hard way how conservatively or not the software was written to trade battery life for ability to charge ASAP when it's "defrosting".
Thanks for the hybrid discussion. I love my 2019 PHEV Ioniq. Perfect for the long trips to see family (60+ mpg at motorway speeds) and, using home charger in the country, ideal for the 30 mile local journeys on electric. Suits me until I can afford an EV that will get me 150 miles on a charge.
When looking at affordability, remember to factor in the fuel savings. Depending on your usage and ability to charge at home (much cheaper) the extra you pay for an EV can be totally offset.
Liked your episode on "electrified vehicles". You're much calmer than I was when I heard the "self-charging" term came up. From a family currently owning 7 BEVs (though previously owned 2 Volts) I think you substantially under valued longer range PHEVs. Check in with Chelsea Sexton and she can give some additional insight here. From my understanding, PHEVs can provide the e-range needed for most days (or weeks) with the insurance of the hybrid mode. Cost of the second power plant is mitigated by the smaller battery. Reliability of the gas engine is good since it is not used much (e.g. after 30,000 miles you my have only 7,000 miles of IC engine use.). For families relying on a single car, the longer range PHEV may be good choice for now. However, see my next post on the danger of PHEVs.
I think also that the fossil engine in a PHEV might get less stressed because it doesn't get abused by the driver and the gearbox - it can run pretty much whenever it is running at its sweet spot.
@@londonwestman1 That's partly made up for by having a less powerful engine than a pure ICE car would, knowing that the battery can make up the difference. But I don't hesitate to put the pedal to the floor in any Toyota at any time for any reason. I've put the whip to many of them for the last 43 years, and I've never had an engine or drivetrain problem of any kind. In my PHEV (and ever regular Prius I've owned) the software does seem to make really good decisions about how to do what the driver is asking for, without killing the car. Likewise for getting great fuel economy. With my first Prius, I was surprised at how the (short but not insignificant) list of things where I would guess very differently from the car as to what was optimal, it almost invariably took a better guess than me. I'm both a mechanical engineer and a software/algorithm guy, and was very impressed that whoever programmed it must have had both great insight and a lot of testing/data available to them, to cover the counter-intuitive parts of the decision making it was never too far from being right about.
I work over-night and my boss has got a new PHEV he plugs in at work and home. Between him using it overnight and the wife using it during the day he's saving enough on fuel a month to cover the monthly payment. In Canada, the geography puts citys at 250-500km apart. Until BEV's are affordable at 1000km range, given the range loss at -30c. PHEV's will be the best seller for single vehicle family's.
Sadly I can’t afford an electric car, therefore a Toyota Yaris is the next best thing. £200 per month and 60mpg . I would love to buy a Kona or an eNiro but they are still so expensive to buy on a monthly contract
If a PHEV fits your driving needs then it's great! We have two Chevy Volts. They go 50 miles without even starting the gas engine. Some of us still can't afford a Tesla, BTW.
We have a Chevy volt that uses fuel a couple of times a year. It’s brilliant tech.
I drove my Volt 4k miles before filling the gas tank. It cost much less than a new Leaf after incentives. I get a max range of 72 miles on battery, but love the option of taking a longer trip with the gas. A small inexpensive phev is an excellent entry point to EVs!
@@fairman14065 I've recently bought a 2019. Sometimes it will go 60 miles on a charge. My wife's 2013 forced her to burn half a tank because the gas was 6 months old. The computer keeps track of it.
Sshhh, Fully Charged don't like those kind of opinions.
That's essentially it. An EV with 300 miles or so of range which is what the Ioniq gets and it's more on the affordable side of things
If I get a used PHEV, it's at least cheaper than buying an Ioniq. For me, a PHEV would be great for commuting and then also driving to my parent's house. I am however talking about buying used PHEVs more than buying new ones
I see it as you just have around £15-20 worth of fuel in there (with today's prices), and you don't have to worry about the fuel going stale
Robert's face is so expressive. "What, in the office?" Faint disgust.
Absolutely eloquent. Love it. You should be an actor, Bob.
The kid has potential!
I KNOW! - I think he'd be great playing something like, say a mechanoid with a rubber face...or something...!?
Just an idea...
@@andymccabe6712 Nah...he'd need to change the voice
You'd think he would jump at the idea of making a video in the office...no energy whatsoever wasted on travelling anywhere.
Well, I had traveled to the office . . . . but I take your point
I’ve driven a Honda Clarity PHEV for 3 years which has been a wonderful transition. It has allowed me to drive 90% electric while waiting for full electric car technology to mature with options from many manufacturers.
Live in a house perchance? And, majority of your journeys are local, maybe? Without this information it is hard to tell whether this would stand for "most car owners at the moment".
@@aacmove Yes, I live in a standalone house and 90% or more of my driving is local. In addition, I have a large solar array and a level two charger. What works for me does not work for everyone.
PHEV is great due to incomplete infrastructure for electric car charging stations. In the city I live, Hyundai has a rescue service for their make EV owners. When your Hyundai EV runs out of battery and stranded in road, you can phone the emergency service. They will drive a rescue car to your location and use the rescue car's battery to charge your car's battery. You do not need that if you drive a PHEV.
Hi guys, I was talking with my local garage in Gloucestershire ( only servicing ice cars) about are egolf, and if they had plans to service EVs. They are not sadly, and believe there a fad. They’ve think hybrids are ok. They were suggesting car companies are turning there backs on EVs think it’s the wrong road to go down. They seem to quote a lot of mis-information, some of which is plucked out of the air.
I talk about the benefits of the EVs, and with some success, I see a few eyes raising. Usually the savings on driving these cars. But I see this kind of business in the distant future struggling because we know EVs and almost no servicing will ultimately be the end of this business. I will continue to discuss the pros of EVs with them, who knows, maybe one day.......
Cheers for the fantastic show, also entertaining and informative.
While I appreciate your take on the drawbacks of PHEVs I couldn't disagree more. Since I only have one car, I need a car ready to go when I need it, whether it's charged or not. I drive a Volvo XC60 Recharge with a 40 mile range. 95% of my driving is EV when I'm home. BUT I regularly go on 1000 mile roadtrips. 8 hrs on the road in a day is enough without waiting for the battery to recharge. When I stay with friends, they never have an outlet close enough to plug in. When I head to the mountains in the summer, there isn't a public charging station within 40 miles and I park in a public lot so can't plug in. I'd love to drive an EV but they just won't work for me yet. Hopefully, sometime in the near future, EVs will have longer ranges and there will be public chargers in more remote areas. Oh, and my fuel won't get stale. If I go too far without using any gas, the combustion engine will kick on for a minute or two every now and then.
This comment right here nails it.
Well, I also do long trips - every week once or twice. I have a MG4 which has good range and charges to 80% in 20 mins (if you pick a high rate charge point). I also destination charge when I arrive. So, I charge while stopping for a coffee and a pee, and while doing work, then drive back starting with a full charge. I think this comment is understandable but doesn't recognise the improvements in EV range and the massively improved charger network
Oh and the point made in the video about maintenance costs shouldn't be underestimated. I've spent virtually nothing in 4 years and 70k EV travel (we now have 2 - I kept the first one). The tyres didn't wear out faster than my previous diesel SUV - I changed them at 45,000 miles just because the rainy season was coming. They were still legal
@@tonychallinor6721 The fast-charging network has certainly improved in the past few years, but it's still very incomplete. In many areas around the world road tripping can't be done in an EV at all, unless it's a top-of-the-line car. PHEVs allow people to plug-in at a much more affordable price point without sacrificing road-trip-ability.
@@tonychallinor6721 I mean clearly you don't go to the same places this person does. I more or less share their experience. There's rarely electrical outlets at e.g. mountains, beaches, really anywhere you actually want to be on a road trip, and in general destination charging just doesn't work for many destinations.
With all respect, I am driving a 2013 Plug-in Prius, bought 2nd hand, coming from a Diesel Estate. I can charge at home, and every first 20 km’s is fully electric, which is most city kilometers. We currently drive around 20-25% full electric, and weekly I need to drive at least 200 km on the motorway.
I have a very good fuel economy, maintenance cost is low, and it will bridge me to when affordable 2nd hand EV’s become available.
This. They've forgotten the most sensible option for people who still cannot afford a BEV. Not gas or HEV or PHEV but any kind of 2nd hand good hybrid you can find. Don't eat the full depreciation of a new car which is going to be obsolete in 5 years.
Absolutely agree! I just bought a 2013 plugin Prius myself last week, and so far I love it. Fuel consumption so far has been phenomenally low, and if it's as reliable as my previous gen2 regular hybrid, maintenance should be good too.
Totally, I think a PHEV makes way more sense, and I think for most people it would end up being better for the environment too, since it doesn’t have the crazy embodied emissions of an BEV
@@charliebrackenbury6115
That embodied emission isn't crazy. Especially if the battery is made outside of China. Also, as the grid is getting greener, the CO2 cost of manufacturing will keep dropping.
@@andrasbiro3007 yeah, I know it’s getting better, still though, even just the mining of the rare earth metals necessary to make the cells has a huge impact compared to the metal needed to make an ICE, the nice part of a PHEV is that you can have batteries for your day to day range and then on occasion use the ICE for long distances, that way you aren’t lugging around hundreds of pounds of energy intensive batteries for the couple of times you exceed the range
You can drag around a ICE and fuel/exhaust system in a plug-in hybrid or a lot of battery capacity you aren't using all the time. It appears that the weight might be comparable between the two. If PHEVs had 50 mile electric range you could spread the batteries out across a lot more consumers. Most people don't need 300 miles of electric range. Just like most people don't need 1000 horsepower. But people are trying to knock down the plug-in hybrids in favor of battery only cars that people don't need or can't afford.
A range extender wankel engine/generator etc runs ~150lb, with higher power genset's maybe ~200lb, better than the ~1000lb for a long range battery. Mated to ~100 mile range battery this would cover pretty much all requirements; virtually all trips would be electric only. Long range will kick in the range extender. The engine also can run on hydrogen, to keep the activist greenies happy. I'd expect the car to be plug in as well to maximise flexibility.
Or don't want to pay..
Public transport is also quicker tbh. It'd be great to see all railway lines be electrified, and for the UK to have a long term goal of putting in maglev
HS2 pushes the boundaries of the kinds of speed that traditional railways support but there is a limit.. Maglev has a limit too but a much higher limit. It's just a really expensive technology.
Hopefully once Maglev becomes cheaper, we might have say 325Mph trains which would really change the UK, given how relatively small it is
@@thecraggrat My driving needs are 95 percent urban and 5 percent total desolation. When I leave the Wasatch Front and hie to my Wyoming retreat, charging stations are practically non existent. My "electric car with a range extender" (Chevy Volt) is ideal.
Car for car what is the price difference between a PHEV with say 50 mls electric range and a BEV with say 200 mls range? I think you'll find the initial purchase price is actually quite small nowadays.
GM offered the first dedicated PHEV, but with the second gen decided it was pointless. Cheaper to ditch the engine system and go full electric. So no more Volts and instead more full EVs.
I owned 3 "self-charging" hybrids in succession. To an old petrol-head, they proved to me that I wanted a full electric car. Now I have a full BEV but it would not have happened if the hybrids hadn't persuaded me how good electric power, albeit for a mile or less, really could be.
That’s a fair point !
What a pity you are so “slow on the uptake” Shane !
I have currently PHEV and most likely will jump to BEV. I bought PHEV 1.5 years ago as BEVs had (and still have) a bit too many limitations from my point of view. But we have Audi Quattro Avant (=my wife's car) which we can use for longer trips, towing etc. so I should be able to tolerate downsides of BEV in my car and use Audi when BEV is not good.
Also PHEV also 'educated' me that generally EV is pretty good path forward, while current cars still have a bit too may downsides.
Also I think that all new petrol/diesel cars should be hybrids and gradually (probably quite fast) things will shift to EVs. Having hybrids in between will ease up limited supply of batteries and will very fast reduce pollution.
@@mho0 if you are conscientious enough to charge your PHEV daily then you'll find a BEV way less hassle!
@@Hyfly13 I think you are right.
@@mho0 You make some fair points, but we recently had "Hybrid Gate" where it turned out PHEV's pollute far more the manufacturers claimed. And the reason really is simple, but difficult to solve. Combustion engine cars are very dirty and polluting until the CAT has a chance to heat up and burn off the pollution, extra petrol that doesn't get burned, particulates, etc.
In a PHEV, the engine kicks in for seconds or barely a minute or two at time. So, it really never gets the CAT up to operating temperature, which means the car engine runs in the cold fully polluting mode pretty much the entire time.
As the video makes a point of, most people transition to electric cars through Hybrids. They go combustion, hybrid, plug in hybrid, BEV, or combustion, hybrid, BEV.
So, their usefulness appear to be mostly just as a hand holding device to get people to full BEV's. After a year or two with PHEV, most people start wondering why they are hauling around this large engine and transmission they really never use. Add in the far better performance of BEV's and they end of losing the combustion engine.
I think hybrids are a good stepping stone, they also handy if you don’t have a drive way to charge at overnight, something I think many people forget about ev owneship, don’t get me wrong you can make it work just charging at ev point but then you kinda got a plan a extra 1 or 2hr a week that you able to leave your car to charge, plus people without driveway are usually low earners so likely can only afford low range evs which means more time at charger points paying the higher charging rates, It does kinda feel unfair. Good top mpg hybrid might be even cheaper to run.
The fact that an electric connoisseur thinks 250-300 miles is a long way is what keeps me from getting an electric vehicle
Guys, I disagree: there is no problem with a PHEV. In fact for some, especially those who need only one car for city and long range drives (occasionally), the PHEV is the best of both worlds. Here in Ireland, especially in the West, the charging infrastructure is crap. I’m not going to have to run two cars or worse one that cannot meet my requirements
2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV to minimize gas usage on local errands, 60-63 mpg on long trips, deviations, no place to plug has been a perfect vehicle for our purposes.
If the charging infrastructure is crap, how do you P your HEV? In that scenario, wouldn't a full or mild hybrid make more sense? Genuinely asking
I have no fossils since 2019. I drive 40.000-50.000km a year. I got no range anxiety. Electricity is everywhere. Gas stations are dying out around here.
@@JackScarlett1 Our gas stations are around 20-50 kilometers apart and close at 8 in the evening. And what then? When you are stranded in the middle of nowhere?
Ditto for Idaho, USA.
My previous car was a Prius since I wanted something more economical for my daily commute round the M25. I used to play the "how long can I go without the petrol engine cutting in" game and it was absolutely my gateway drug to a full BEV. The Prius was replaced with a Tesla Model 3 SR+ which has fully satisfied those cravings for a smooth, quiet electric drive.
thats the crux that a lot of people miss. BEVs are SO much nicer to drive. I drive locally most of the time on twisty country roads. In full regen/1 pedal drive mode its so much better than constant gear shifting. On the motorway with the adaptive cruise its more relaxing on a long drive. ( ive driven more than 15 hours in a day and wasnt wrecked the next day. Same journey in a manual petrol and im not recovered until 24 hours later. Stop/start traffic the car just sorts it out and i occasionally just have thumb the button on the steering wheel to get it going. Manual petrol you are considering a hip replacement op after an hour or so.
I really like my Kona Ev, only downside lately are the charging stations, apps don’t work properly or it won’t connect, or cuts out 10 mins into a charge. The network has to get better, old chargers have to be updated and add more boxes to the area. Big ev stations are a great idea, but the network for these has to grow quickly! Great show, love watching 😊
The Rona has slowed things down a bit i think. Chip shortages etc. Should be ok in next couple years.
Let's get a new law passed: any charging station which can technically provide power but is offline due to a software/connectivity issue _must_ offer free vend. I expect suddenly engineers will be appearing within hours rather than weeks
@@JamesScholesUK That'll put the price up for each unit to cover the offline MTTR.
I guess Tesla superchargers open to everyone will come to the UK soon as well.
@@sargfowler9603 I wouldn't care that the cost was higher if I could guarantee finding a working charger on my first try
To be honest, I already own a BEV with over 350km of range on full battery and I LOVE it, but I am considering changing to a PHEV only because of limits on longer trips! Range anxiety, all the calculations of routes and stops and finding a fast charger, and a charger at the destination and and and... yes it is getting much better, but it is still just too much hustle!
Then you need a 500km one or more. Yes change of use behaviour is necessary. We can't have our cake and eat it too.
That too is a concern for me. Every summer I liked going to the mountains, but it is VERY rural. I've also heard of inadequate recharging sites and congestion almost anywhere. Besides, most electricity is still generated from coal, gas or petroleum anyway.
I replaced my Prius with a Rav4, both hybrids but now I have headroom for my mattress in the back ... and a motorized back gate so I can easily enter/exit rather than crawl through. Downside for larger size is less MPG, but still better than ICE only.
I view HYBRID as better than ICE of course but the better answer until the world can handle a billion BEVs.
The Coffee Loop: For customers, it's GOOD to have choices. In time, BEV's and batteries will get better and cheaper, and it will become a no-brainer, as you can get something like 500 mile range for a reasonable price AND charging stations will be ubiguitous. In the mean time, during the transition stage, which will last decades, it's great to have choices. Driving a PHEV is MUCH better than driving a pure ICE, re the environment.
@@markamanns5145: First, VERY little electricity is generated from burning oil. Second, more and more electricity is generated from clean sources each year, and from natural gas instead of coal, which is much cleaner than coal.
If you want to drive hybrid -- dandy. But don't spread the usual denier falsehoods about the electric system to justify it -- it's bad enough with people that lie for a political agenda. (Not saying you're lying, but you're wrong re the electricity. Don't take my word for it -- the data is all over the internet on reliable sites like the EIA, the IEA, government energy sites, etc.
@@markamanns5145 Just well the "Authorities" have twigged that BEV technology is a dead end.
It's the charging time anxiety, range anxiety and "the finding of a charger" anxiety.
There's no way UK can provide enough electrical energy to keep up with recharging vehicles what with the legislation requiring the reduction of fossil fuels for heating and cooking.
You'll have noticed the increased references to Hydrogen fuel ... and the waning enthusiasm from Boris on "his" massive battery construction projects.
Plus the growing confidence in HVO fuels. Vegetable based fuel with nary a fossil to be seen.
If, as is becoming clearer (!) by the day, HVO burns more cleanly then the wording of getting rid of "fossil fuels" allows for the use of "compression ignition" engines anyway.
HGVs have been running on HVO for over two years and there appears to no pollution issues as yet.
I like EVs so I've been thinking about this for awhile and came to conclusion that hybrids are still the way to go 'for me' because:
1. Fuel in my country costs like half in Europe but vehicles cost 3 times so my break-even point is much longer.
2. Charging infrastructures in my country is like UK 10 years ago and there's no official Tesla dealers so there's 0 supercharger. Hybrids would work better for at least a decade.
3. Houses in south east Asia don't use much electricity like in Europe so regular houses got 45A max, if I have an EV I need to upgrade the system to 100A which cost me about 2 years of fuel just to break even for new installation.
So it very much depends on how each country works and how you use the vehicle because there're too many variants and at the end of the day it's about money you spent.
With home charging, you don't need more than a few kW (3-4) for charging.
Your arguments are still valid though.
You should watch Bjorn Nyland videos, he experienced BEV in Thailand for over a month, and it went great.
There is virtually no charging in the UK its ok down London but the its of the country is stuffed
I charge my bmw i3 overnight on a normal 220v European plug.
Good comment, but not useful, since the video is for the UK. I am not talking about hybrids and EVs in Iraq, where not only there isn't electricity except from each house's diesel generator (the grid never works), but the fuel for cars is so low quality you need a giant petrol engine to use it.
@@موسى_7 Let's say this video apply to pretty much western europe.
PHEV (if it has ~50 miles of range) is still extremely important during this transition period, at least in America, for years yet for the 10's of millions of people that can't charge at home or work. Apartments/condos, street only parking, etc. If their gasoline usage drops 80% that is still a win for the short term. Once there is level 2 (240v) charging just about everywhere we park running errands we can always be topped off and then full electric is possible for everyone. But that's a long way out in the US. My kids can't get BEV because their 20's will be all apartment living with nowhere to charge.
If you can't charge a BEV how are you going to charge a PHEV?
@@NickFoster plugging in phev at a destination, like a mall or restaurant lot means toy can top off or charge a small battery without DCFC, and come back to a charged car to get home, granted you can do that with a BEV, but you won't be able to fill a battery without a driveway. also when going long distances, in our area and use, that is common, our ID4 worked but i was hunting to be able to max range. some trips required a long break and overnight driving makes that much harder
@@saeedhossain6099 Its beacause only Tesla at the moment has the required and reliable fast charging infrastructure. With their long range version cars long trips are barely longer than with gasoline cars and more often than not the driver is the limiting factor. The other infrastructures really need to catch up in terms of charging speed and reliabilty. Luckily Tesla is slowly opening its advanced and reliable chargers to other brands, but the cars also need to get a bit better on sustained charging speeds.
@@NickFoster Hmm, surely the clue is in the classification ...
@@geiers6013 In most of the US even Tesla doesn't have the necessary infrastructure yet. You often have to base your itinerary around the charging stations. Granted, in reality this is only like 5% of your driving, but that can be a deal breaker.
I hope the Aptera does go into production this time. Light ,efficient ,compact and not too expensive BEVs are what is needed for the masses. Aptera has the advantage of solar,may never need charging,at least in the sunnier parts of the world.(like N.Z & Australia)
Yeah it is the perfect car for commuting and is deceptive in size. It looks small but actually has quite a bit of trunk space and safety wise they use a survival cell. I anticipate there will be a lot of copying going on (especially in China). If the production design does not have any major reliability or cosmetic problems after the first round go out and start racking up the km I am all in for one, plus they are all about right to repair and modularity so big win there also.
A rather brilliant concept, was under my top 3 yet-to-come SEVs (beside the Lightyear 1 from the NL and the Sion from Germany).
Living just 200 km from Sonomotor's headquarter, preferring a 4-5 seater and looking for an EV wirh a trailer hook, I finally decided (and per-ordered) the Sion.
The Lightyear would have beaten both, but for the price I'd get 5 (!) Sions or Apteras.
Oh, and finally I'm not sure when the Aptera will pass homologation for my country. (Even they couldn't tell...)
But I pretty much will stay tremendously curious about all three of them, for sure! 🤩👍
The masses? Good God, please protect us from people like Simon. I want to buy what I want and let Simon buy what he wants.
33 likes so far. Sure you can buy what you want.Have a nice life.
For me as a petrolhead the BMW 330e was the perfect exit drug. I got 330i performance, absence of range anxiety, a very sophisticated integration of the electric motor into the drivetrain and I managed to achieve 80 mpg and 4.5 mi/kWh on average driving roughly 2/3 in electric mode.
But as you said, that PHEV was my first and my last of its kind and now I´m driving an i3s BEV.
I also bought the 330e but a year ago when not many BEVs took my fancy. Charging infrastructure was not brilliant for my trips to see family 450 miles away. My trips are mainly 37 mile round trips three times a week and for the 17 months it has done 11,200 miles and at least 9500 were on battery. My mind is now made up and the BMW i4 40 Sport is on order due June’ish. There is strong demand for the 330e so great trade price. A good experience and EV education.
@@douglaswares8296 Mine was an F30, so only 12 to 18 mile pure electric range from 5.7 kWh gross battery size. Yet with charging every night I was able to cover most of my daily driving on electric power alone. I4 40 sounds great, but the new 4-series is a bit too big for my taste and my needs.
@@klausM54 ideal size for me. Fits the golf clubs and the golf trolley nicely 😄
@@douglaswares8296 Kudos to you for choosing classic BMW proportions and not going for the X cars then...
@@klausM54 I posted my own comment 30 minutes after you... my thoughts are the same as yours, except that I could live with the i4 40, but can't afford it! :o(
Glad to see some love for the i3 REx, ours is fantastic. Our battery does 55-60 miles at this time of year, but even so, we haven't used the petrol engine for months, but crucially it's there for long journeys where it's impractical to recharge 4 or 5 times. We simply fill up the tank and the battery, fill up a 10 litre jerrycan, do 140 miles, then recharge the battery and refill the tank at the same time. Easy peasy!
Great car , Im looking at a late rex or an ID3 as I regularly drive 600 miles with a ferry crossing in the middle and I don't want to miss the ferry because a charger is broken. Rex is a great solution.
I do understand the argument that if you're going to plug it in, you might as well get electric. But no amount of fuel savings or tax relief is going to give me the money for a house with a driveway where I can charge my car. So, until I have access to off street parking, it's ICE with electric assistance for me.
I love you and Jack just having a conversation like this, the scripted stuff is great but I like the organic feel!
It is scripted.
@@Supernaut2000 The intro probably was but I very much doubt if the rest of it was, they talk over each other too often for it to be scripted.
@@cbcdesign001 it's a blend.
They have a generalized script with main points etc.
They are using viewers questions so they have worked out their answers, but sure, the conversation is unscripted. If that makes sense.
I've worked in TV. Some of the presenters are insanely professional.
They can even time their comment to fit a countdown that is happening in their earpiece, to the nearest second or two. Live!
I think the dynamics were far better with Robert and Jonny Smith. A big part of Fully Charged was lost when he left.
I would dearly love to own a full EV but, for my average usage, they are not cost effective. When I returned to live in the UK in 2016, I bought a pre-owned 62 plate Yaris Hybrid which I adore. I don't have to pay Road Tax, my insurance is very reasonable and I get about 62 MPG. Because most of my journeys are local with an occasional long distance drive to 'the big smoke' to see my family, I've only reached about 36k on the odometer. It is economical, quiet and a delight to drive. (And yes, Robert, I only fill up once every 6-9 months and I've never had any problems with 'stale' petrol!)
I've looked at the economics of owning a secondhand EV but the figures don't stand up. At present, a pre-owned Zoe or E-up (the equivalent to a Yaris Hybrid) is just so damned expensive and, although a Nissan Leaf or Vauxhall might be relatively less expense, I don't need anything that big. So I've decided to hang on to the Yaris Hybrid and run it into the ground, although its reliability might mean this will take decades. I suppose the only 'crunch factor' will be if HMG decide that my hybrid should incur Road Tax!
As someone looking for a small/medium-sized used car, I have literally never even see any hybrids whatsoever within 100 miles of me and within my (relatively limited, but still not absolutely tiny) budget. So I'll have to make do with an ICE until the used and/or the new electric ones get cheap enough for me to afford. Which is a shame, because I'd love to be a bit greener
The best car to drive is the one you currently own. By the time you drive it into the ground, electric will be a no-brainer.
PHEVs do lug around an engine and transmission when they’re not used, but in the same light a BEV lugs around a giant battery when not much of it is needed on similar basis. I think a efficient PHEV is still a very good choice, as the battery is about 20% of a decent sized BEV so much less in raw materials and can allow other PHEVs to hit the road and be a larger impact if used as intended.
But in the same vein no matter what you choose, you still have to lug around something, why not choose the BEV as it costs less to charge, and is so much more efficient, making it better value for money, a PHEV would be the heaviest in terms of lugging things around…
@@benjibatch my info could be outdated by now, but I swore I saw that something like a Prius Prime gets more miles per kWh than a Model 3 when running in EV mode and is lighter in terms of curb weight.
This is one point I was going to bring up. A Phev is not too far off a Bev long range, doing a lot of short trips.
One other issue is that there isn't a BEV option available for all vehicle types. Robert said, buy a Prius over a big suv. They are two completely different vehicles. For some, it would work; some need the size for some reason. One reason is towing for some; the Prius can't keep up in that category.
@@FlexinJC yeah that is definitely a fair point. Some people need or want a different type of vehicle, which may not be available or practical as one or the other type of powertrain.
@@benjibatch no, a BEV is MUCH heavier, eg. The Kia Niro EV is 450lb heavier than the PHEV version(from their official spec sheets) and it's only got a 64 kWh battery, not the +- 100kwH one it would need to have more than mediocre range. If you're going to be lugging around something that's used only occasionally, a relatively lightweight ICE engine is preferable.
In Australia at the moment the PHEV is only practical option compromise for locations I visit as a Fly Fisherman. Look up Miena, Tasmania, Nelson, Victoria and Port Fairy, Victoria and tell me how an exclusive electric vehicle could be a viable option. there are no charging options close by apart from your average wall socket. A round trip to a charging station is at limit of most current vehicles. In rural areas it doesn't take long to out reach the charging network. If it weren't for my hobby and travel involved an electric only could be an option.
Don't get me wrong, if we had better charging networks in rural areas electric may become an option but for now our Mercedes PHEV is a great option, it has up to about 70 klm range on electric great for every day around suburban Ballarat (80% everyday driving anyway) and charges overnight on regular 240 volt plug for the longer trips the ICE kick in. Plugging in every night is part of routine. A full trip Ballarat to Port Fairy, about 220klm starting with full charge pulls fuel usage to under 2L/100klm.
I am longing for the day there is a decent electric towing vehicle with a 2-3 tonne towing capacity similar to say Toyota Prado and a practical towing range of 600klm. I'd even volunteer to trial such a vehicle before it hits the market. For one thing I've always considered electric a better option for remote trips because with a few solar panels one could creep back to civilization even if only 40 or 50 klms a time. Run out of fuel and you're stuffed.
As a family we may go one electric and one PHEV towing unit. Much better than one PHEV and a Diesel SUV currently.
Fully electric cars consume more fossil fuel than gas burning cars. Aside from the energy conversion inefficiencies, the embedded energy processes of manufacturing are wasteful. The amount of energy used just to manufacture an electric car is the equivalent, in oil consumption, of what 130 thousand miles of vehicle use would be in driving. For a gas burning vehicle the equivalent is 20 thousand miles. So the electric vehicle is 110 thousand miles behind before it even leaves the factory. Then there are many other factors that contribute to its inefficiency.
I’m happy to hear hybrids aren’t the devil. I’ve just passed my driving test, I can’t afford a new car, or a second hand electric. But I’m looking at getting a second hand Prius. Thanks for this.
After having three Prius, now a hybrid RAV 4, I can assure you that you won’t be disappointed.
Good choice under the circumstances.
Well, they sort of are the devil. It takes the emissions and environmental impacts of building a petrol car + the impacts of building an EV and putting all of that into one vehicle. While marketing will tell you differently, the environmental ROI on a product like this will have to me much longer than a BEV alone. Even if that BEV is electrified by coal. They are purposely green washed to continue business as usual for big auto and the oil companies.
That said, buying one second hand keeps it active so, it wasn't a waste to make it in the first place.
@@roguea987 Making a battery for an average BEV pollutes 40x more than the batteries for a self charging Hybrid. (Simple math, there that much bigger) Pollution of making a petrol engine is negligible compared to this. Hybrids do cut down a lot on emissions compared to normal petrol/diesel vehicles.
So for the initial pollution of making just one BEV(which replaces only one ICE vehicle), you can produce and cut down road pollution of 40 petrol/diesel vehicles by swapping them for a hybrid.
Total environmental gain is larger by the masses switching to hybrids.
Not to mention that most people still have a car no2 with ICE when they need to go somewhere on a long trip. We live in a fast paced world where people already barely have enough time to fit everything they need into a day. "Just plan on taking more time travelling" sounds good in theory, but doesn't work in reality. That's why a plug-in hybrid RAV4 is the best of both worlds. You can drive up to 75km in ev mode (almost 90km in reality) and just keep going if you need to go further.
@@sasakurtovic6850
Absolute rubbish.
For starters, the RAV4 pack is 18.1 kWh (yes, i actually checked instead of guessing)
That'll be about 30-40% the size of the average BEV.
So 3 "times the pollution" not "40"....."simple math"...duh?
Pollution to make a petrol engine (AND all the extra ancillaries!) is VERY comparable to this.
.
As for "cutting emissions".
A smaller(?) engine, pulling more weight? Is going to be under more stress. It will pollute more...... Unless it's a larger engine, but in that case what's the point?
On that subject, the RAV4 Hybrid had a *2 4 litre* engine (needed to pull the weight??😂)
....
Should we get into the pollution of simply *producing* the fuel? (NOT even burning it?)
That's one of Roberts favourites.
(Check his interview with Graeme Cooper of the National Grid)
+/- 7 kW per gallon of fuel.
Enough to drive a BEV 25-35 miles, depending on the vehicle.
That immediately comes off "the bottom line" of cost AND pollution for the EV.
.....
As I said, you're guessing.
Please don't.
Loving this conversational format.
Great to hear! We may mix a few more into the schedule
I agree. I would love to see a more of them mixed in with the regular content
Saaaame, Robert’s personality
I drove a Chevy Volt PHEV for 4 years and it was great. I got between 50 and 60 miles range on pure electric. My EV use of it alone was over 75% and I only had 2 oil changes since the ICE motor was only used when I was on a longer trip. It was the gateway drug though hence I now drive a Tesla. Very happy with it so far (one year)
I used to own a Golf GTE. Lovely car, but no matter how little you used the engine, VW still made me come in every year for an oil change. That basically ruins most PHEVs economically speaking...
agreed completely, i have had 2 - 2nd gen volts 2016-2018 and 2018 to present, LOVE it. I have added gas 2 times per year, it is nice to have the back-up as needed for long drives
OK, but that Tesla with its huge battery is stopping ten others getting a Volt! Battery capacity is growing but it's still limited. Why just have it all sitting in your car unused most of the time when nine others could be using it all?
@@PILLOCK4 Well my Tesla isn't one with the really large batterys...I've got a Model Y SR which only has a 58kw battery compared to my gen 2 Volt which had an 18kw battery so it's not 10 others as the battery is only about 3 times the size
@@krugerdave My '17 Volt came with 2 free oil changes from the dealer I used them both approx. at 2 year (the maximum recommended time as the milage wasn't at the recommended range) and the 2nd.was timed right before my warranty expired so was still free. I was then due for a third one by the time that I sold it
The arguments against PHEV are not totally sound except the one about the additional weight you carry.
I have what is probably the longest range mass-produced PHEV in the world, the 2g Chevy Volt. Most hybrids are on the "gas" end of the spectrum; ie they are a gas-powered car with electric battery and motor to assist. The Volt is on the other end - basically a short-range pure electric car, with a (really big) gas generator that kicks in when the battery runs out. And since I live in a third-world country (Ohio, USA) electric-wise, where it is illegal to like electric cars and you will probably be beaten for trying to charge one in public, assuming you can even get past all the diesel pickups intentionally blocking the (few) chargers in the first place, it is still a good car to have. In warm weather I can make my 54 mile commute on electric only and on trips I get 43 mpg(US gals, 54 imp) when not using battery. I charge it in my garage and it takes maybe 15 seconds on arrival and 10 seconds on departure to fool with the plug. It takes 1.5 hours to charge empty to 80%, but I dont notice Im inside fixing dinner.
Yes, I still have to get an annual-ish oil change, and in Ohio I am penalized $200/year on my plates (about 4x as much as a gas car) for being eco-friendly, and of course I dont have a frunk because I DO have an engine up front (and it just BARELY fits - heaven help me if I ever need to, idk, FIND a spark plug).
OTOH It goes like stink (294 lb-ft at 0RPM) and I love looking back at V-8 Camaros/Mustangs in the mirror still crossing the intersection I already left, limited only by my front-wheel drive traction. (My next car will be dual-motor!)
And as far as not raving range anxiety - its true I have NO range anxiety. However I have replaced it with the equally annoying "dont let the engine start" anxiety :(
Totally missed the point that people who do a few very long journeys but most of the time commute less than 30m a day with the current terrible charging network in the UK would find a PHEV really good.
I'm not sure you can call the UK charging network really terrible for a few long journeys, most Motorway service stations now have excellent Gridserve chargers. It all depends on where those long journeys take them.
@@ianmurray250 no most of the changes don't work. We have to keep reseting them. And they keep going off line. We have a long way to go yet. Also ,most electric cars have 100miles less than they claim when you treat them like normal cars by driving them in winter and turning electric things on in the car.
@@chrishart8548 Not what I have found with chargers recently and my Kona has a 240 minimum range, vice 287 (or 278 I can't remember) if I am really heavy with the throttle and don't give a dam. Over 300 with sunny weather and air con.
@@ianmurray250 i have used the chargers on long trips regularly and they are hopeless and getting worse, as electric car numbers increase at a greater rate than the chargers. You can't rely on them, full stop !
If your long journeys aren't regular, then you're fine with a BEV too. It's a bit of a paradox. If you're going on a lot of long journeys, the benefit of a hybrid isn't great. If you're doing it rarely, then the benefits don't really matter.
30 months ago when I got my Ioniq PHEV it was perfect because my daily commute just about used up the EV range, and for snowboarding and mountain bike getaways I didn't have to stop to charge. Now that I've been working from home for 23 months and the only trips I take are the long ones, I'm annoyed that I always seem to be buying gas. Still half the gas I put in my old car, but the full EVs look more and more appealing every day. My PHEV is the best of both worlds, but also the worst as I still have to get oil changes, and have more parts to fail than either an EV or a traditional fossil car.
We have the Ioniq Electric and we got an Ioniq Plug-In as a courtesy car for a day. To the casual observer they’re identical so you’d think they’d be similar to drive but the PHEV was sluggish in comparison.
From similar experience a PHEV is only 10% of the benefits of a BEV, not exactly the best of both worlds IMHO
@@davidfyork Oh for sure! But I wouldn't have wanted to drive the 744 km trip home from Mont Tremblant yesterday after a half day of snowboarding with all the charging stops I'd have to make in an original Ioniq EV either, and on Canada's pathetic non-Tesla charging infrastructure to boot. I do that trip several times a season. My day in an EV is coming, but it wasn't happening 2.5 years ago.
Edit to add: Ontario has finally announced that their motorway service centres, which they call ONroute stops, are all getting DC fast chargers. This will change the math for me significantly! I only hope that they're putting in 300 kW stations and not cheaping out with 50s.
But not everyone can have a BEV - there simply isn't enough battery capacity in the world currently. Everyone may be able to have a PHEV though.
I have Volvo V60 hybrid and I think it is a great car. For me really best of both worlds.
Enough space
Still not SUV ( I am really not fan of tall SUVs)
Can tow 2000kg
Station wagon (easy to put 2 german shepherds to trunk)
Can drive to 50km commuting full EV mode (charge both ends)
Plenty of power
Great design and good quality
Comfortable and quiet
But it really depends on your needs which is the best (EV, PHEV, Diesel/gas).
On the money as ever gents. My father in law called me an idiot for buying an eNiro because "you'll be replacing the battery in five years and it'll cost you £20,000". Step away from the Daily Fail......
It's crazy how much traction that particular myth still gets. Unless you own an early EARLY Leaf, the battery will outlast the rest of the car.
Well now you have to wait 5 years and drive up to your father in law to show your still functional EV and 5 years of fuel savings!
I liked this video a lot. I'm a fan of full battery electric vehicles, and have only ever bought full BEVs myself. That said, I disagree with many of the statements about plug-in hybrids (PHEVs). Most people I know with PHEVs hardly ever fill up, as a typical PHEV these days can go 40+ kilometres on a charge, and that's more than the average person does in an average day in most countries. And since the ICE portion of the vehicle is relatively rarely used, the maintenance of them appears to be relatively low. It doesn't appear to be the worst of both worlds, they appear to be far lower maintenance than regular ICE vehicles. And since they cost less, and can do things that BEV can't do (such as long trips through routes that don't have adequate charging infrastructure yet), they are absolutely the better answer for some people at this time.
Oh, and PHEVs charging slower isn't much of an issue for most PHEV owners, as they also have much smaller batteries to charge, so that comment I don't think was "on point" either.
The issue of gas going stale does exist, but modern day gas tanks are better sealed than they used to be. And so long as you keep the tank full up (which reduces the potential for condensation to build up in the tank) then you can likely go a fairly long time without any problems.
I also think complaining about the extra weight of the engine in a PHEV makes no sense and is not scientific. A typical PHEV weighs less than a similar BEV. For example, the curb weight of the BEV Kia Niro is 3,854 lbs, but the PHEV version is only 3,391 lbs!
I'm not pro-PHEV. I wouldn't purchase a PHEV for myself. I'm all-in for BEVs. But I think it's important that we choose between PHEVs and BEVs for the right reasons, is all. :)
Plugin hybrid will barely be plugged in to be charged, people mostly will drive on petrol to avoid paying the congestion charge and a prius self charging is as cost effective as a BEV to drive.. On the long run because sooner or later the electricity suppliers will charge additional prices for charging bev's and they are already installing additional electricity meter at home for owners of BEV'S.. and on cold winters the BEV'S rang drops buy 40% while the self charging hybrids have very little change in its range and the battery doesn't need to be drained to heat up the battery like on the bev's,
Being an owner of an I3 REX, I have to say the petrol backup has saved us many times. We probably only use it 6 times a year but on a motorway it makes such a huge difference, especially when charge points don't work. I don't understand why more manufacturers didn't take this route
I've just got one as well. To be honest, it's been quite a challenge. I have to say I'm disappointed in the way this video glosses over many of the issues with battery-only driving and plan to be contacting Fully Charged direct in this regard.
You've had to use the gas backup on occasions because the battery range on the I3 REX is so limited.
That small petrol engine adds about 200 kilograms to weight of the car.
@@CwyfanapRhys do you know how much that affects range? It seems like a better solution than the hybrids that attach both the electric motor and engine to the drive train.
@@mikeedwards83 I suppose that depends on the i3 whether it’s 60Ah, 94Ah or 120Ah. Back in the day, the range extender made sense given the number of rapid charge points weren’t so widespread. Now I think onboard 22kW charging would be more useful as many rapid chargers provide this as well as the 50kW DC and both can be used simultaneously (obviously not by the same vehicle). Useful for those very infrequent use cases and the DC charger is already in use.
Plug-in hybrids have technology to know when the ice engine needs to be “cycled on“. Every once in a while my plug-in hybrid starts it’s ice motor if I have not used it in a couple days. It runs for about a minute, and then turns off again. This “exercises“ the engine, and also burns a tiny bit of the fuel. Personally, I either only keep about half a tank on board unless I’m on a road trip.
Which PHEV do you drive? Needing to run the ICE every few days sounds like a terrible design.
@@joeb4294 your 12v battery does drain slowly when you don't drive the car and iirc it is that 12v battery that makes your start button or ignition key start either the ICE engine and/or the battery pack.
@@joeb4294 Not sure about my wife's Kia Niro, but a Chevy Volt wants to run 5 minutes a month and get to nominal operating temp to keep water condensation in the oil to an acceptable level.
@@DarkDutch007 Oh, I might have been biased by my 'PHEV' experience being with an i3 Rex which manages the 12v battery with the traction battery. The i3 Rex is more of an EV with an onboard electric generator. I suppose that most PHEVs with smallish batteries do not have that ability. Still, I would expect that the 12v would be okay for at least a week but I suppose the car would be designed more conservatively since it would not know if it will be left idle for a week after today's drive.
@@thewheelieguy A PHEV needing to run the ICE once a month for at least 5 minutes sounds more reasonable to me.
I work for a wind energy company & I'll be getting a company car soon... And I will be asking for a PHEV.
My work place is about 10 miles away, so on a normal day i'll be doing 20 miles of commuting, and have the car charged while I'm at work. This means pure electric commuting.
However, my job also requires me to do one or two longer trips in the 350 to 400 miles range every week.
This is a use scenario which I still simply wouldn't be comfortable with in a BEV, especially because being half an hour late to a meeting is just not OK, and I wouldn't have a clue whether the companies and towns I'll be headed to have fast chargers nearby (today the most likely answer is still no).
PHEVs are getting decent electric range nowadays. As an engineer my biggest gripe with them is that they're much heaver than normal petrol cars; but they are getting lighter.
So yes, BEVs are better from a technological standpoint, but in my case, they simply aren't the right option. So PHEVs are a great proposition for some scenarios. And it's a good thing we get the choice.
Sadly, PHEV drivers rarely charge their cars and simply drive them for tax benefits. And that is retarded.
Maybe they'll be charging them more as fuel prices spike. On my Prius Prime, my EV miles are still $0.02/mile, while the ICE miles have gone from $0.05/mile to $0.075/mile. A very survivable jump in cost, but still a good incentive to plug in every time I'm home.
I have friends who live in RVs, whose diesel costs have gone from $0.42/mile to $0.70/mile. Every one of them cries about it when they put $150 to $250 of fuel at a time into their 8-10mpg vehicles now. Those who were planning big trips where they'd have to do that several times to get to a destination, have almost all decided to make 2022 a "less travel, spend more time in each place" year.
@@EfficientRVer Many PHEVs are company cars, I think there should be an incentive for charging them, otherwise the driver isn't paying the gas so why would (s)he care ? I have a gas company car so I know the feeling.
I so relate to this. I’ve always been interested in cars. And so it was natural that I read and researched the technologies over the years. This year my wife and I were in the market for a new car (after not having one for 3 years after moving to Denmark). And we bounced back and forth between PHEV and EV. And I spent nights evaluating, until one day, we just decided, let’s take the plunge. “Let’s buy an EV”, we said. For all it’s pros and all it’s cons. It’s THE way forward. And now we’re waiting delivery of our new Polestar 2. Shout out to Bobby L because his review of that car, and calling it close to the best he’s driven was one of the things that pushed me to take the plunge! Well done!
@iscadean3607MY22? Same here! Love it!
Really surprised Fully Charged got it so wrong on PHEV’s. They are right that self charging hybrid is a lie, but not PHEV. Mine has 50KM range and it’s more than sufficient for the vast majority of journeys, then if I need to go further the petrol engine gives me unlimited range. While the notion a PHEV engine might not start for a year is total nonsense. BEV’s are great under certain circumstances, but have limited practical use outside of a fanatical early adopter community and Tesla die hards. Reliable, affordable charging infrastructure is non existent and when it is available half the time it’s not working, starts working then stops, has damaged connectors or there are long queues to access chargers. There are Firmware glitches with integration over DIN and even DC chargers being blocked by ICE vehicles. Right now BEV’s are for company fleet vehicles and the brave. Whereas PHEV is a great bridge technology for real world driving.
I disagree with the PHEV hate. PHEV are extremely important, gateway drug to full electric.
Many people like myself can't charge at home but can in a limited number of places. I'd happily start with a PHEV.
They "were" but they're "not"
The average man in the street doesn’t find it easy to go full EV ! Surely the likes of a Toyota hybrid Cross over ‘ Isn’t too bad to start off with 🤷🏼♂️ 🇬🇧
I have a PHEW and love it. Most weekly running around is all electric. But, I drive a trip of about 500 miles through the desert every couple of months. MOST EVs don't have that range and I don't want to start looking for a charging station in the middle of nowhere!
The negatively towards hybrids in this video show ignorance to the fact that it everyone lives in the type of residence as the the hosts of this podcast. The infrastructure to EVs is not there yet. When charging becomes available as plentiful as gas stations, then it may be time to switch. BEVs are certainly for tomorrow, but Hybrids and PHEVs are for today.
@@davidc8937 or indeed can afford an EV that would work for the sort of use we need. The second hand Outlander PHEV we have will do 20 miles of EV (home charged), do the 50 mile commute and tow the caravan. We'd currently have to pay a huge amount for an EV that would tow our caravan! No way we could dream of affording a £50k EV even on a lease
Me and my family are driving a Polestar 2 - also thanks to Robert‘s „exquisit“ review (thanks by the way!).
It’s our first EV, and we love it. Never loved a car before. And no range anxiety any more. Effectively saves time (charging at home, no petrol stations) and a significant amount of money!
My family and I !
I'm really disappointed you didn't mention towing a heavy caravan or horsebox with a PHEV. I don't think n that fully electric cars are able to provide a good enough towing range yet. I drive 10-20 miles a day on average, then 1 a month a so I tow a 1500kg caravan, would love to hear some advice on what would be a good vehicle for this scenario. Currently I have a 2L diesel for the caravan and long trips and a Smart EQ for daily trips, but would be great to back to one vehicle
As the owner of a Rav4 PHEV, I disagree - I think PHEV is the best of both worlds, not the worst of both worlds. Yes it's heavy and complex, but Toyota has perfected this technology over 20+ years, and with ~45 miles EV range, we are basically driving an EV 28 days a month. When we take a longer trip (here in the US, driving 400+ miles during a weekend getaway is not unusual) we don't even think about charging stations - we can easily live with having to fill the gas tank a couple of times a year, which is only a couple of times more than the owner of a pure EV. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good! We get 90+mpg all-in and the only charging we do is at home with a regular wall outlet while we sleep.
Not sure if they had Chevy Volt in the UK. I've owned a 2014 Volt and now a 2018 Volt which gets 50-60 miles just on battery, Then the gas engine takes over after that. I do at least 90% of my driving on electric because 50-60 miles is enough for that. I usually only use the gas engine for long trips. But it's there when I need it. Yes it's kind of a transition car before going fully electric. And they don't sell them anymore. But why is the Chevy Volt still practical now?
As I said, I do 90% of my driving on electric so it almost seems like a full electric. You can still buy a used one for $20K - $25K USD. To get the cheapest Tesla now costs you about $50K. Do you want to spend that? Also a Volt has a pretty lot of room inside and it's a hatchback. Compare that to Chevy Bolt, Leaf, and other small electric cars. This makes the Volt unique IMO.
But isn't it stupid to carry around the extra weight of a gas motor that you almost never use? Well if you have a fully electric car with a range of 250 miles or more (the Volt gets over 300 total miles, BTW) then you're carrying around the extra weight of that big battery most of which you may never use. So it's the same thing. This video fails to point that out.
Charge time? I charge overnight in my garage so it doesn't matter.
I have a Toyota Chr Hybrid, love it and I judge it worthwhile as I went from 35mpg in my old Mazda to 57-63mpg+ in the hybrid, hopefully the next car in a few years will be full electric, and hopefully the charging network will have improved and expanded by then.
Same here, a year ago I went from a 2009 diesel CRV to a 2017 C-HR self charging hybrid and it’s brilliant. Average 58mpg but can get into high 60’s. Yes I would like a pure electric car, but simply couldn’t afford one as what I would want is twice the price. I will keep the C-HR for a few years & then change. Point worth noting, I bought used so the car already existed and so CO2 had already been used building it.
If you can plug in at home or a daily work plug (or a very reliable, super-local multi-stall DC charging hub), AND your part of the world has very plentiful reliable DC options serving longer trips, obviously full BEV is the way to go (if you can afford one, new or used).
BUT - if you get out of your 1st world bubble for a second - there are still many regions in Europe and elsewhere in the world where DC infrastructure is sparse (or non existent) and can't be relied upon, but where car owners can nevertheless plug in at home and get 30 to 50 miles of daily all-electric range, covering most of their annual mileage.
In these regions, obviously a BEV cannot yet function as a family's "only car" (most car owning households worldwide only have one car). So the non-fantasy-land choice these folks face is ICE or PHEV (or perhaps BEV with REX). Are you seriously saying PHEVs (/ BEV with REX) should not be chosen over an ICE-only car for people in this situation?
At the end of the day, the goal is transforming an increasing share of societies' combustion miles to electric miles, towards 100%. At this still-in-progress stage, PHEVs are still a relevant (if temporary and transitional) stage along that transformation, for some folks, in some regions. This will only change when reliable, affordable, and easy-to-use, multi-stall DC charging is commonplace in all regions, and that will take another few years at least. Have you looked at the huge area of mid-Wales recently - still no multi-stall DC stations!
I was looking to buy a used PHEV but now I will get a ICE vehicle. I feel that EVs are still out of my price range, at least one that can be used as my one and only car, here in Texas you can drive 500 miles and not find a DC or AC chartering station... unless you find someone willing to let you use one of their house hold plugs to use... and the best you will get is 1800w an hour if your lucky.
Wales is very primitive - backward, even ...
The most outstanding feature of the Prius, and the least understood, is it's transmission. There are no belts, no clutches and it still offers 100% variable ratio.
I think there may be a clutch plate
I still find myself correcting people about that. They all think that Toyota's eCVT is like the belt drive used in mopeds 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@alexdhutanu Yes, there is a kind of clutch plate but it has no actuating mechanism. I think it is there just to dampen any shock loads.
There is also NO physical changing of gears in any way. It is as mechanically unchanging and bulletproof a system as a differential. The variable effective gear ration the ICE sees is entirely created by changing the speed of the electric motors, which are varied to create the illusion of having changed gears. In reality, the gears are in a fixed relationship in a planetary gear system, with the output of course being the wheel speed, and the two inputs being electric motor speed and the two inputs being electric motor speed and ICE speed.
Every time I return to this series, it manages to disappoint. No clear explanations, just a narcissist with a disorganised mind spewing his self-admiration into a video.
My 2012 Prius is what got me infected with the EV bug! I loved going a mile at 35mph on total battery power (always feathering the accelerator to keep it under 40).
Fast forward to 2017 -- our power company offered $10k off MSRP on top of the $7,500 US federal tax credit and I bought a Nissan LEAF S which was so relaxing to drive -- it was so quiet, so smooth. The only issue was the range deterioration over 5 years (especially in Winter on the US east coast).
My wife got the EV bug from my LEAF and decided to purchase a 2021 Tesla Model Y. I love driving that car for the wow factor (and that is has so much nice space!), but it would be a lot of car for my 20 mile daily commute.
This year, after 5 years of LEAF ownership, the CRAZY used car market in the US and the lower price on the 2022 LEAF helped me make my decision to buy a 2022 LEAF SV, and I LOVE the driving experience!
I can't imagine ever going back to even a hybrid at this point. EV is a way of life!
EV still a baby in my country, hopefully I could drive one too in the future . . great 2nd ride for city use . .
For me Hybrid was a great option moving from petrol just to test out the waters, to see if i enjoy it. And i dont have to dive straight in to thinking and stressing about charging and all that right away.
So it was a great steeping stone. I went from BMW E92 to a Audi A3 e-tron (hybrid). And now im driving a Tesla Model 3 :)
So i would actually recommend if you are not sure about EVs to get yourself a Hybrid first and see if you like it and also to see how everything works with charging and stuff.
And cuz its a Hybrid you dont have to stress about charging. And when you get used to it then hope over to a pure EV.
So if you are not sure, its a great in the middle option IMO of course.
Can't really argue with that. What I would say is that it's quite a costly stepping stone. There are so many services out there now that enable you to rent an EV for a month or two to see whether you can make it work or not. I wonder, if you'd had the chance to test out a Tesla straight out of your BMW, whether you'd have decided to go full 'leccy right away
I often wonder if most PHEV owners actually bother to plug the car in most of the time. With a BEV plugging in is just habitual and if you forgot then you could not drive it whereas to a PHEV owner plugging in might just seem a bit of a hassle.
@@JackScarlett1 Great episode and info on hybrids, I'm just curious do you own a car and if so is it a BEV?
Hybrid is still a great option even today, it offers way more capabilities than a BEV, you can easily bring your hybrid car overlanding or camping where an EV will never go, there are tons of plus with hybrids.
@@robsengahay5614 yes they actually plug their cars, what’s the purpose of using it without charging!? You get amazing fuel economy and your engine doesn’t work often…..
I've found that the idea of buying an EV is great if you have the money to do so. A lot of people could really use something that is economical to run and is low maintenance, but the high up front cost leave them having to purchase a used ICE car as that is all they can afford.
I tried to buy a BEV in Thailand 2 years ago which came with a wall charger included. The install company refused to install it as I had solar saying that solar could not charge an electric car - lost my deposit. Eventually was allowed to buy a PHEV with 70km of electric range. So now 95% of my driving is powered by sunshine. There’s a lot of ignorance out there!
Did they think the electrons were incompatible?
Do they not have lawyers in Thailand? Or electricians? Or did you misunderstand what they were telling you about your too-small electric panel?
Your story sounds fishy.
Still love my mild hybrid 2013 Honda Insight Facelift. Even after so many years, original IMA battery and brake pads still going strong :)!!
16-20 km/L average, 5 mins refuelling, pretty efficient city or highway and peace of mind . .
7:12 - The original “PiP” - Plug-in Prius - was indeed pretty dubious, but the current “Prius PHV,” or “Prius Prime,” as its called here in North America, really is a sweet spot:
- I see 25-30 miles on a charge,
- 4.6 miles/KWh on electric,
- 55MPG (US - about 65 MPG UK) on petrol, and
- Its 8.8KWh battery only adds ~4% weight to the car.
The Volt was conceptually nicer at 50+ miles per charge, but ultimately it wasn’t very good at either: only around 3.25 miles/KWh and 42ish miles per US gallon. Its battery was too heavy in gasoline operation, and its engine was too heavy in electric operation.
What bothers me the most is the fact that the plug-in hybrids, despite their complexity, are cheaper than pure EV's. The slow charging is a total red herring - when using the limited electric range for a commute, most people will charge overnight at home.
I don’t think hybrids are actually that complex. I recall an article about Toyota hybrids and the entire electric assembly is 28kg including batteries. It goes to show that batteries are the main cost.
As for charging, it depends what you do with your car. We would mostly charge at home, but I do occasionally travel 130 miles to visit family and friends. On the last trip I took note of charger availability and none were available at hotels, shopping centres or pubs.
Yeah exactly you obviously charge it at home. An EV with all the trimmings is still gonna be £10k more. If they have ICEs in the same range then the economies of scale keep the cost down.
@@sargfowler9603 that's why I'm getting a PHEV, they are looking to build out the charging network over the next few years so I will leave them to it, while I get used to charging but don't have to plan my trip around finding a plug that isn't in use.
They advertise with 0-80% charge in 18 minutes! But that’s with the 350kw chargers, of which there are only 14 ionity ones in the UK, with plans to build 7,000 but they don't exist yet.
@@sargfowler9603 Just a thought, my EV has a 280 mile range. I also drive 130 miles to visit friends, and have never needed to charge on the trip there or back, just at home before and after.
@@VexedFilms 12,000 miles driven so far in my EV, fuel saving is £2,670, and it cost £8k more than the same spec petrol version. 40k should break even.
I have a Toyota Yaris Hybrid and for what I need it works very well, the fuel economy is really good (has never gone below 55mpg) and it is cool running on battery power in the city. However, my next car will definitely be BEV!
Toyota Yaris Hybrid would be perfect for my usage but they're priced around $33,000. Like all hybrids and electrics, way too expensive.
@@toby9999 I bought a 5 year old Toyota Auris TS Hybrid in 2020, for 10.000 euro. Absolutely nothing wrong with it and a very decent fuel economy. I think that now the fleet-sales of EV's are on the rise, there will be plenty of ex-fleet hybrids of 3, 4 or 5 years old coming onto the second hand market. Here in Europe, ex-fleet cars are usually well maintained, low mileage and high specs. And decent price too. And the looks and technology of three to five years ago, isn't old-fashioned yet. So all in all quite an attractive alternative to buying new.
55mpg is basically what I got from my 2005 Peugeot 206SW. There are more recent diesel cars which achieve far better mpg than that. It's hard to se what you're gaining by having an expensive and complex hybrid.
@@PeterChinkin hes gaining not having to drive a diesel
I got one of these for my parents. It was good for the very limited amount of driving they did although I certainly wouldn't say it always does better than 55mpg.
You also have to be very wary of the 12v battery running down if you leave it standing for a few days.
The plug-in hybrid is the technology which best suits my needs at the moment. Lots of 5-10 mile local stuff during the week meaning I don;t have to cold-start the engine and use no fuel for those, and I have a 500 mile round trip most weekends which I can do without worrying about recharge time
I think your use case is one of those that fully justifies the existence of PHEV. I always think of someone who has a 30-mile round trip commute, but who has a relative who lives a long way away, who they might want to get to in an emergency - they don't want to worry/wait about charging in that situation.
I also have a plug in hybrid.
It's 20 miles to work.
But on some occasions I have to drive to another location in Devon.
An don't want to be sitting around waiting for a car to charge.
And for the people going to say we'll you need to stop to use the lavatory yes I do it takes five minutes then off again.
And it's my own personal car.
And every EV I looked at with enough range the price was stupid.
And would also still need at least 2 charges.
If you stop for a comfort break each way on that journey & do so at somewhere with decent chargers a 500 mile round trip should not be an issue if you leave home charged get a quick stop at your comfort break & also a little top up at your destination. Remember you’re doing other things when charging.
Harry Speakup: The alternative for your situation is two vehicles which would mean two times rego, insurance, maintenance, garaging etc... doesn't need too much thought to decide the hybrid has got a place in your life! Ours certainly has. :o)
Given time, there will be a BEV that will do what you need, both new and used.
@@jonblacklock1052 That's so dumb, trying to find a place with good chargers when you need to piss. It you gotta go you gotta go. Also not sure what these 'other things' you are talking about are. Yes I'm sure you can find other things to do when charging but that's not the point.
The main issue with Electric compared to PHEV that I don't feel they really got into is the price and insurance difference for an equivalent sized car. Both thr purchase cost and insurance are significantly higher for Electric vs PHEV. I'm looking into buying a new car right now and need to up size due to kids and I desperately want to convince my wife we should go electric, so I actually put a spreadsheet together of the lifetime costs including the purchase cost to try and convince her that EVs were worth it due yo the savings, but even for the cheapest family sized EV I could find with a range over 200 miles (we do a lot of driving holidays to remoteish parts of the UK) the cheapest comes out at about £26k, but I can get a low milage used Ioniq PEHV for £18k and it would take over 10 years for the lower running costs of the EV to make it a cheaper option that the Ioniq. Even frugal 1.0L Turbo petrol family cars come out cheaper than an equivalent sized EV over a 10 year period. And the massive recent energy price hikes have made that even worse. So until used EVs start becoming more comparable in price they will remain less financially viable than PHEVs on lifetime cost.
Cost is the main reason I've decided to run my current 1.2 petrol until it dies. Maintenance is higher but I can't really charge at home easily, so the cost of using rapids would be similar to petrol. We get about 50mpg on long trips. My wife uses the car for work so she really needs a range of at least 150miles. It would also cost me a few thousand to trade in for an EV hence why I'm waiting for now. I'm starting to wonder if it would work out better to buy a small cheap EV for day to day use and just keep the petrol car for long trips. Obviously it will cost more to run 2 cars but the wear will be spread out so 🤷
Great conversation and interesting to hear your thinking ….. however as the owner of a ‘self charging’ Toyota hybrid I have to say that out here in the countryside of rural Cornwall a ‘self charging’ hybrid makes a lot of sense. With minimal charging network available the Toyota system just makes sense, giving you excellent fuel economy and low CO2 emissions while having no range anxiety for longer trips. I would agree with you entirely about the benefits of a BEV if I was living in a city area with good charging facilities, but the reality of living outside cities is that the network is just not good enough yet.
Could you charge at home? If yes, then you would never need to charge in Cornwall or Devon, although probably would on the way back from London.
@@ianmurray250 This is a question that the industry and government need to ask.
There are a reasonable percentage of homes that could not have home charging.
I 100% can not.
My mums house has its own parking space, but it is separated from the property by a public pathway. The parking space is also technically still council property.
My Dads place would involve resurfacing a long disused dirt track and knocking down not only his shed and his immediate neighbours sheds but sheds, garages and fences along the entire 1/8 mile track. The track belongs to everybody who backs onto it for the bit that they back onto.
A lot of the garages have become irrelevant down that track with cars getting so much bigger over the years.
There is still a very long way to go before BEV can be relevant for everyone at the same time.
I find the "BEV only!" attitude so elitist and irritating. A PHEV is a brilliant way to help more households slash their emissions without a huge investment. Rather than 100 kwh of battery being consumed by a single (and usually very expensive) BEV, auto makers can split that up 5 ways and build 5 PHEVs with a 20kwh battery. That would allow 5 households to enjoy 50 gas-free miles every day, while only burning gas for occasional road trips. PHEVs don't require building a EV charger network, and at home you don't need a fast charger - you can just plug it into a standard outlet and it will charge overnight. They are a turn key solution to slashing emissions.
If the government promoted PHEV adoption, we could slash emissions now. Instead we're creating huge price pressure on battery prices because of these "BEV only!" folks that are convinced that shoving 100 kwh batteries into every single car is the "only" solution. It is not, and it's a very wasteful use of rare minerals, as 80 if those kwh are rarely used. Share them with 4 other cars instead! Enough with this battery hogging mentality.
PHEVs are more practical, require no charger infrastructure, and far more affordable to build. There aren't enough batteries to support everyone going full EV. Continuing to ignore this reality is only going to inflate battery demand and inflate prices - making even PHEVs too expensive for most households. Let's instead "share the battery cells!" And encourage more 20 kWh PHEV adoption to slash global gas consumption more quickly and affordably.
Agreed.
That’s a very incorrect and unnecessary way to produce cars
Hybrid = Higher cost of owning, as they have a gas engine etc...
@@wonderplanet343 in order to avoid spending time at EV chargers during long road trips it is 100% worth the small premium.
BEV owners tend to have the follower mindset and a constant need to justify their purchase due to low self esteem. Just do what everyone else does: ignore them.
From the US, I kinda laughed at the both interest and researched opinions that balk at the idea of a vehicle that takes advantage of the current fuel systems AND the current battery tech systems. Hybrids is what we need right now. Can you imagine where everyone used 50%-60% less gas and way less pollution, in an affordable package (compared to long range EV)? Plug ins have the best of both worlds, and the worst. They are between ICE and EV in every category. They are indeed not a transitional tech, but a blended class of itself. Hybrid systems have been used on trains and passenger buses successfully. The thing is, the dream infrastructure for EV's is still decades into transitioning everyone, and never happen due to how our transport systems work anyway. The idea that hybrids are "old tech" is funny, because ev's have been around as long as ICE. Hybrids are the newest form of powertrain. And no, plug-ins dont really have range issues. The Chevy Volt, for example, has 40-70 miles, depending on the model, full electric which is more than enough for daily driving, and over 400 mile range, which you cannot get in a lot of ICE cars, and you have to sell a kidney to get in EV's, and it cost way less than anything but the budget short range EV's that are pure commuter vehicles. Imagine driving an EV, which is far more pollutive to produce than an ICE car, and think pretentiously that its superior to other technology. EV's are awesome, but their only an option, not a solution.
Picked up an Hyundai Ioniq 5 in November and its been pretty good so far. That said the dealer was more keen on selling me a large hybrid SUV instead, so I think your comments around dealer margin, plus associated serving costs is very valid.
Nobody can get as many EV's to sell as they would like. Demand is going to usurp supply for the next couple of years from what I read. They have to try to get you into something they can actually GET>
I a Farmer in rural north Dorset transitioning to electric, however I need to tow heavy weight! you just dismissed people like me who look at the PHEV as a transition because, simply electric can't pull 3500kgs please don't disrespect us trying to do the right thing - other than that great job...
OK so we ordered a Citroen E-C4 this week having visited a few dealerships looking at EV options. Every time the dealers wanted to talk about hybrids. In my head I was "We're not buying a ******** hybrid!!!"
The dealership model is broken for the exact reason you mention. They want to steer you to a combustion engine or hybrid car, where they can sell you service which makes up 60% of the profit at the dealership. Buying an EV is literally an obstacle course and a constantly reminding the dealer, NO, I am NOT here to buy a combustion engine car, nor a Hybrid... for the 100th time...
3 years ago I drove a Subaru Impreza WRX. A mate gave me a go in his i3 and I was instantly smitten so I leased a Kia Soul EV for a couple of years and now own a 9 year old 24kWh LEAF which was cheap to buy, pence to run and I still find it a fun daily driver despite only doing 60 miles per charge. I don't need or want a PHEV or HEV
I have two PHEVs and they are fantastic. Around town i use 0 gasoline but i have to drive 500 mile trips 2 to 4 times a month. I understand this is a niche use case but theres an ass for every seat and PHEVs work great for me at the moment. Will go full BEV once 400mi range options are reasonably priced.
What works for me is a combination of an e-bike for short journeys, and a 2nd hand ULEZ compliant petrol car for the occasional longer trip (only about 1,000 miles a year).
I don't need an electric car but, if I did, I'd want to buy the new X-bus, with the solar roof that would probably mean that I might never need to "plug in".
Great discussion format, by the way; I'd like you guys to do more videos like this.
😂😂😂
Your missing the point of phevs. They're infrastructure transition vehicles. I live where it's still hard to find chargers and spend a few weeks / year no where near them. At home I charge from a 120v outlet and that's enough for day to day.
Obviously it's better to buy a small car than a hybrid SUV main battle tank. But why not a small hybrid car or small plugin hybrid plugin car?
A regular hybrid is probably still the best option for someone who lives in an apartment and has no good charging-at-home options.
I also see many people dismiss PHEVs as being too compromised - and that can make sense from the perspective of someone who lives in a more urban built out area with good car charging options, which many people do. But a PHEV can make a lot more sense for people who live in rural areas and occasionally need to travel long distances.
I own an i3 Rex and I use the ICE once every couple months, often travelling to places that have little to no charging options.
Hybrids use electric in stop/start city-style driving. This results in fewer emissions in cities where pollution is a health issue.
At the time of changing from a diesel car, an ampera was the best electric car I could afford. 28 days of the month I don’t use petrol, but for the same price I could have only got an old leaf with 80 mile range. Price is so important when having these discussions.
Stick with the Diesel
two years on second hand electric car values have fell off a cliff and petrol and diesel have kept up
my main concern with fully electric is battery degradation down the line is it going to make sense to buy a fully electric car that's 5-6 years old? especially the way some of them are built like a i phone where when the battery goes get a new phone I feel manufacturer's need to make that part easier to replace and deal with. still want a tesla though!
With this episode I was glad to see your channel at least try to deal with an inconvenient truth. That for the average non-wealthy driver that needs a car for commuting a PHEV makes much more sense than full BEV. The reason is simple: they are much cheaper. I own a VOLT that I use to commute 30 miles per day with. I drive fully electric about 95% of the time. It cost me half of what a Tesla would and was what I could afford. This is a litmus test really. If your channel is truly interested in decarbonizing auto transportation you would embrace this inconvenient truth and stop pretending that you miss the point. Until we get the $25K BEV (something only the chinese seem to be interested in) we will get nowhere in popularizing greener transportation.
Totally agreed.
Agree.
Same here, I rented a Tesla Model 3 for 36 hours and then bought a 2019 Chevy Volt...an awesome machine for commuting and hauling crap. Hatchbacks are my favorite type of car, and with the seats down it has a tremendous amount of cargo space. I have been driving a Toyota Corolla the past 3 weeks while on assignment for work and I am HUGELY disappointed in it's driveability, performance, and environmental systems. The 2021 Corolla takes FOREVER to get heat, and then it's still never very warm. The front defroster is absolute crap, it can't keep up with freezing rain. I cannot wait to get back into my Volt. I drive 60% on electric over it's lifetime. I feel like I have the best of both worlds. Electricity costs are going to continue to climb so there will not be a cost savings driving electric.
Thank you for your discussion
There is a philosophy distinction between 2 sorts of PHEV which I would like to highlight, and it comes down to the audience they are for
1) The electric motor is there to improve performance on an already large car (usually SUV) and it cannot be set to ONLY use electric - so that if you put your foot down it has to bring in the ICE engine. Effectively the electric motor is not powerful enough for everyday usage. First problem is that the ICE engine is used intermittently resulting in worst case scenario for emissions and resulted in a number of studies that PHEV are worse than ICE. It is much more a problem of the philosophy of the car design - it is made wrong. Too many PHEV cars are now like this as they are just big SUV cars with electric motors too small to use as an EV, only there to make their car faster.
2) The electric motor is easily enough to power the car in normal use even at highway speeds and can be used so that the ICE engine is locked out - so you hoof it and just use the EV part as an EV. In this case the EV can be used for short journeys and the ICE engine never turns on for this. The car can be used as a short range EV, and ICE for long journeys for people making the transition to full EV. Only this type of car will make people have that "ahh" moment and realise how nice full EV is, but give them time to adapt.
Interesting talk. I’ve always advocated PHEV’s over non plug in variants because of the fact that you have to use fuel to charge them, which is still more expensive than the electricity you put in to a battery.
I will be getting a golf GTE again, as most journeys are sub 30 miles but I quite regularly do a lot more. I could get a pure electric vehicle (that’s pretty ugly) for less than this will cost but couldn’t afford a full electric Vw at the moment. (I can’t afford two cars so can’t afford a smaller range EV AND a petrol car for longer journeys).
I think the fact that I can drastically cut down my emissions and fuel by doing the majority of driving electrically is great.
Got an Honda Insight in 2009. Which was fantastic, didn't have one problem in 12 years, and was sold in brand new conditions. But even at that time, I got an hybrid simply because having a full blown BEV would have been costly and problematic, if possible. Purely ICE cars just become old-tech and stopped being interesting to me. Same is now for PHEVs: they were nice, sure, but just for a brief while, years ago. Now, not anymore.
I’m glad you brought up the issue with dealerships not wanting to sell you an EV. I went to a Kia dealership in Workington, Cumbria to look at the eNiro and was told, "oh you don’t want one of them, get the hybrid ". I was stunned by that one. But not stunned by the ignorance of dealerships in this county. I will never purchase another car here. Just as an example, my current car, from a couple of weeks of ownership the sat nav was saying I was driving in the Irish Sea but some 30 miles or so. My dealer took the car in several times and fixed nothing. When I took it is again the technician came running out to me before I had even got out of my car (I had an appointment, too) and he said "you might as well go, there’s nothing we can do - the problem is not with your car but it’s with the satellites themselves".
What utter bollocks.
So SEAT of Workington, if you’re reading this, shame on you. You’ve lost a customer.
You've convinced me! Going for a Kia e-Niro. As a long time Red Dwarf fan, now searching for my next car, I was delighted to find this series. And as a newly converted Electric car fan, I have subscribed and will keep watching! Oh and if Robert happens to see this.... Best delivered line in all of RD: "I'm fine thank you Susan!"
This is one of the channels that encouraged me to purchase my Nissan Leaf in 2015. At 131,000 miles I opted to replace the 24 kWh battery pack with a 62 kWh pack last March. Great reliability and operational affordability.
On the point about stale gas, I know that the Chevy Volt will actually force the gas/petrol engine to run periodically for that very reason as well as to keep things in good mechanical shape (periodic lubrication, etc). Don't know what the frequency is of that, but it is something that engineers thought of and planned for.
Sounds obvious, really. "We are designing a car that is supposed to only rarely use that engine in it, maybe we should make sure the engine will actually run when needed?"
There are occasional cases where something has slipped by everyone, but generally the companies making big expensive things are paying some very smart and well educated people huge salaries to make sure any potential problems are solved long before some random commenter on TH-cam starts asking something like "but how will solar work at night?".
BMW i3 REX does that too, roughly once a month IIRC.
@@AnalystPrime Hey, that's a good question! How _DO_ solar panels work at night? 🤔🤔🤣🤣
@@clasqm Sounds about right. I was considering getting a used i3 REX when looking for a good deal on used EVs, but I found a lot of people LOVED the i3 but had lots of problems with the REX version. The non-REX version was desirable but just slightly more than what I wanted to pay, even used. One other issue that I was concerned about, and this is sad, is that the i3 LOOKS like an electric car and there are a lot of haters out there who will vandalize just because. The one I ended up with, a 2016 Kia Soul EV+, looks basically identical to the gas version with only tiny differences that most people won't even notice.
@@JustWasted3HoursHere Better than during the day actually, due to not overheating from the sunlight.
Of course, the only people getting useful amounts of power from them are those using their "solar" powered calculators under a desk lamp.
Funny how the photovoltaic effect has been known for about a century and PV panels have been used to produce power for decades, but calling it something like photonic power or light energy instead of solar power still sounds like a made up thing from some scifi show.
For a different view I'm a motability customer and I've always gone with ICE cars (mainly down to the lack of BEV cars at the time) as I'm disabled, I rarely drive great distances, just pottering about generally so I'm definitely going to go BEV on my next car purely because I only drive short distances with no real range worries, plus the added cost of fuel and maintenance of ICE cars etc. I can just charge it and probably have a week or twos range between charges, and as I'm at home a lot charging isn't going to be an issue for me personally. The biggest advancement that has to happen is the improvement of the charging stations especially with quick/rapid charging bays. More bays placed in towns and city centers, and even supermarkets/shopping malls across the UK. Excellent video guys 👌
Do you have any concerns about the accessibility of chargers? I'm disabled but not yet a wheelchair user, had concerns about the weight of the combined port and lead. I have seen some very small women cope with them but in my experience very small woman are very strong!
I do wonder if wheelchair users have any problems reading the screen or reaching the rfid scanner or the charge lead itself....?
Not had experience of charging stations to be able to make judgement yet, as it my wife goes to the petrol station but that's more about the brain fog... a whole other story!
@@judebrown4103 that is a very good question. Before making a decision on a BEV (I'm not due a car change until next year) I will definitely need to consider where all my local charging points are first, I'm not a wheelchair user myself but I could see how that would be difficult for people in that position, I'm guessing in that case you'd need to ask someone from the garage to help you with charging or always charge from home overnight, but not ideal if you're traveling long distances I suppose.
Fortunately at present I don't have an issue with my hands/arms so picking up and connecting chargers isn't an issue for me, I just have use of walking sticks so for me I can't see it being much different to lifting and using a petrol pump where also the readouts are high up so again I would guess that anyone that's currently able bodied enough to use a petrol pump will not face any more difficulty when using electric charge points.
I've also wondered how people would get on that live in blocks of flats or tower blocks as there's no way you could have a charge box fitted or charge from your home, in that case you'd have to live pretty near to a charging station.
@@Addixxtion Probably worth getting the loan of a car first. We qualify for full Motability and in terms of all electric, the two MGs, the Kona and the Soul seem like the four to look at.
I drive over 1200 miles a week as a field engineer. I cannot see any realistic way to achieve this in any electric car, regardless of me seeing the benefits. The car I use at the moment is perfect for the job, a Diesel Passat estate. I can charge its 60+ liter fuel tank and drive for 600 - 700 miles on a charge (Fuel). Due to government regulation and my need to be able to drive this didtance , I have had to order a Plug in Hybrid costing £53K...It will do approximately 300 - 350 miles on a 50 liter tank of Petrol. This is going to be frustrating. The electric range is a quoted 40 miles (read 25).
You rant about Diesel, but I have gone from a 60-70mpg Diesel to a 35mpg Petrol.. Great!! With the cost of the car and the fuel to my business will almost double how is this helping the environment to use twice the fuel to do the same task.
You say get electric instead...What car can carry a full engineer tool kit including parts that fill a Passat estate and still travel 600 miles on a charge?
I travel 300 miles in a day regularly at motorway speeds. The electric cars that quote that kind of distance are prohibitivly expensive or too small for the task. Then come cold winter days the 300 mile range is 200 miles due to cold.
We are not at a point where I can possibly use or afford an electric vehicle and yet I have been forced to choose a Petrol Hybrid car (Due to the Diesel car tax being at 35% vs 11%) that is worse (compromised by design) than anything that I had before.
The working people are being forced to compromise or have an inferior range for much more money.
The EV evangelists are going to wreck the businesses of people and services that rely on cost effective transport of people and goods.
I think EV's are good, but not for everyone and this should be understood.
We have the PHEV Chrysler Pacifica and love it. I would love to have a BEV, but finding a vehicle to fit a family of 6 that isn't a $100k+ Model X doesn't exist. In the warmer months, we go for weeks without using gas. Even in winter, our fuel usage is very low. Really, our primary use of the ICE is for inter-city or longer road trips. Using a renewable energy provider, we can keep our footprint reduced for the vast majority of our daily travel.
If, for some reason, we needed a second car, we definitely wouldn't hesitate to go straight to BEV.
I eagerly await the introduction of a BEV minivan, but I expect that may not really be a reality until enough of the kids are gone that we can downsize to a standard BEV.
The Prius drivetrain is still a masterpiece and have not been done better yet. I drive an electric car too, I skipped the hybrids, but I still admire that drivetrain.
PHEV is mostly useful for people needing lots of energy, like big 4x4s and towing and stuff, to at least make some progress, for example in the US. In a passenger car though, I would skip it.
Mild-hybrid is a nice little system which should've been on cars for over 15 years, since it is a stripped down dumb version of a Prius drivetrain.
Completely disagreee - the Prius PHEV has leading efficiency in both modes and is relatively cheap and very reliable. It will divide petrol use overall by 4, but uses only one tenth of the battery of a full BEV - with batteries in short supply, this makes them compelling.
Hybrids aren't more expensive than pure EVs. They're much cheaper, especially if you look at one a couple of years old like most people do. I'd love an EV, but the range and lack/reliability of charging stations worries me a great deal. I honestly can't see it improving for many years to come. My next car will be petrol or possibly hybrid, but it won't be a pure EV just yet.
Agreed.
Last year I swapped my 1.4L petrol Suzuki Vitara for a “mild hybrid” 1L petrol version, it was quite a bit more expensive than the previous version of the car I owned, but I thought that “it would pay for itself in fuel savings” I instantly felt like I’d been conned the MPG was exactly the same as the normal petrol version, so I was paying for a more expensive car and still putting the same amount of petrol in, it didn’t help that petrol prices have gone up so much, anyway I got rid of that Suzuki and got a Dacia Duster, not electric I know but when one cheap enough and practical enough comes around, I’m hoping my next car will be an electric one!
Mild hybrid is just stop-start. Most people turn it off.
@@fivish it actually assists the engine during acceleration only, none hybrid cars can have stop start
Classic example when electrification done poorly.. Suzuki not exactly make good petrol.cars.let.alone electrified petrol ...
Here's a contrarian view to chew on (and spit out if you don't like it). I live in Oregon in the US. Oregon is slightly larger than the UK in land area. Our population is 3.8 million (more or less; less one someone dies and more when someone is born or moves here from California). The population density is about 15 humans per square kilometer. You can compare this to the UK numbers. I live in the Portland Metro area which has the highest population density in the state. There are virtually no public charging stations in my area. There are a few public charging stations scattered about the Metro area.
"Who cares?", you say. And you'd be right; most people charge their BEVs, often Teslas (you can't throw a beer can out the window without hitting a Tesla around here), at home. If driving in the Metro area is all you do a BEV is a perfectly good solution.
My wife and I are retired and we like to travel. If the public charging infrastructure in Portland is thin take a guess what the charging infrastructure is in the rest of the state (where very few people live)? Nonexistent. Imagine trying to take a driving trip around Oregon in a BEV. It's easy to run up a 1,000 or 1,500 miles on a big loop around the state. If you stay at campgrounds there is no facility for charging. If you stay in motels there are no chargers in the parking lots (and maybe none in the town you're in). This is the state of things within Oregon.
Now consider traveling to a wider region including Washington and Idaho. These are often destinations for our trips. Recently we traveled to Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana. I'm not sure we stayed anywhere that had a public charging station. That trip was mostly along state highways and local roads. I don't think we even saw a charging station along the way. Anywhere.
You might point out that people travel all over the country in Teslas and you'd be correct. But to do that you have to stick to the Interstate Highways (in Oregon those are I-5 and I-84). But get off those highways and travel to the scenic areas and you are back in the charging desert.
At the beginning of 2021 we examined the various BEV and PHEV options and did some route planning. We concluded that travel around this part of the US is simply not practical in a BEV (unless you buy a Tesla and stick to the Interstate Highways). Narrowing the search to Hybrids and PHEV choices we looked at our local daily driving. Turns out that a PHEV with about a 20 mile electric range would cover 90% of our local driving. Assuming we could charge at home we could avoid burning gasoline for most local driving but be able to do long trips around our area without needing to cobble together some ridiculous charging arrangements. We're not looking to reenact the "Long Way Up" on our vacations.
We wound up choosing a BMW PHEV with about 20 miles of electric range. It's worked out wonderfully for us. We usually only have to buy gasoline once a month or so and we do almost all our local driving on electric. In Hybrid mode the car (it's actually a medium sized crossover) gets much better mileage than the gasoline only version of the same car.
If the goal is to reduce fuel consumption and still retain the ability to travel long distances than the PHEV we drive is a very good solution (even if, as you point out, the solution is inelegant). Yes, we haul around an engine and battery pack (the electric drive train has to hall the engine and gasoline and the gasoline engine has to haul the batteries). But as long as we're not using much gasoline I don't see the problem.
The charging Nirvana you seem to have in the UK will not be coming to the US anytime soon. Nor do I wish to own two vehicles, one for city driving that I charge at home, and one for long trips. Why should I have to pay to have two vehicles? Recently we found out that Oregon's 2022 portion of the $1 trillion infrastructure spending bill for charging stations is about $7 million. That isn't going to make much of a dent in the public charging situation in the state. Even receiving that amount for the five years of the bill's spending lifetime won't be very noticeable. Most of the chargers will be installed in cities where they are generally not needed but are more visible (i.e. more politically useful).
To draw this long story to a close I would urge you to take a less demeaning attitude towards hybrid and PHEV solutions. Given the mission of Fully Charged I'd say your position on PHEVs is a bit self serving. Consider that not everyone who subscribes to FC is able to make do with a BEV but is still interested in the technology and market. Try not to label those of use who, after careful analysis, decide that a PHEV (or hybrid) is the most practical solution as dullards unable to appreciate the elegance and rightness of BEVs. When the charging infrastructure in our area supports long distance travel by BEV I'll buy one. Until then please keep educating me, but save the snarky condescending attitude. It doesn't do the rest of your efforts any favors.
Thanks for the short snippet Gary but would you mind explaining yourself fully.
8:08 "Driving around with a ton and a half of engine and gearbox". Robert, if you want to pontificate about PHEVs then at least use realistic figures. Since when does an engine and gearbox in a Crossover vehicle weighing 1930Kg with 4wd and an electric motor, charger and batteries sufficient for 28 miles have a petrol engine and gearbox weighing 1500Kg.?
To achieve 4WD with a BEV you need two motors and two sets of drive components, so this offsets to some extent the weight penalty of having an engine as well as an electric motor.
You are also ignoring the fact that in order to get a realistic range between charges in a BEV it is necessary to have large battery packs which are only needed for longer trips, so most of the time you are dragging around heavy and expensive batteries that you don't need. For comparison, a dual motor (4WD) tesla X weighs in at circa 2,400Kg compared with a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV at circa 1,930Kg. So the Tesla has a weight penalty of 470Kg.
Come on Robert, let's get the facts straight and not quote ridiculous figures to trap the casual watcher.
For the record, I am a fan of BEVs, but until Battery Swapping is a reality I think the concept is flawed for many potential users.
Robert comes across as such a nice bloke. Always perky and always entertaining. A national treasure!
I contacted Toyota and they told me that their hybrid drives on the battery 80% of the time. These dirgusting liars really claimed they invented the perpetuum mobile.
80% of the TIME means if u are sitting in City at a red line it counds as electric time !.. so in city they numbers are correct because u stop very often and in slow traffic it goes EV... They mean 80% of time not 80% of distance :D
I drive a 2 litre Corolla hybrid estate. The brochure claims it drives on electric 50% of the time. From my experience over the last year I'd say that's about right. Between 55 to 63 mpg without trying hard. Astonishingly roomy inside, better than the average SUV. Top drawer reliability. Next step, a Toyota BEV I guess
My Toyota Auris Hybrid is standing still for 98% of the time. Can't beat that for fuel efficiency!
But seriously: It really never drives fully electric in normal traffic. Only in slow moving traffic, it might do a few kilometers full electric. As soon as you touch the throttle, the petrol engine kicks in. But the electric engine is always supporting in the background, so in the end it is 1,5 to 2 times more fuel efficient than a comparable ICE-only car.
@@Gooikes in the city ! and not on the Highway or urban roads... And as soon as you want to drive a bit sporty the gas consumption is like a ICE car because even for starts in the city the electric motor can only start slow and not fast
Toyotas "self driving hybrid" ads are banned in some countries, purely because they are misleading.
I was quite happy with my Opel Ampera, it is real more on the electic side. To me it is all about the desing. The German and Korean manufacturers regulerly use their traditionel drive train, throw in a pancake motor and a battery. That is a heavy desing and I see the criticism there. However the Japanese use a hybrid transmission with a few gears and a spiced up electric motor, for there PHEVs. moreover the use of a smaler ICE is possible, since a bigger battery can provide the average power demand. That´s not the whole story, but I think it is possible to built a PHEV that´s more efficient than the cars we see currently on the market.
I’m in the States, and I live in the northwest where the temp drops to dangerous levels in the winter. I feel like a plug-in Hybrid would fit my climate better, and since I live in a rural area, a gas/petrol option not only ensures I can travel regionally, but I can also take a 1600 mile trip in the same vehicle- right now, charging stations are few and far between where I am.
I think a range extended EV that uses the waste heat from burning petrol to warm the car passenger cab and battery in winter as well as charging the battery would be good in colder parts of the world.
@@danielstapler4315 I disagree. The world doesn't need millions of small-engine "range extenders" lacking the technology of real automobile engines. I advise a "real PHEV" with a real automotive ICE, if you're going to have any ICE in a vehicle, whether you want one for propulsion, heat, charging, or anything else. Even the Chevy Volt engine was a crappy compromise. Longer EV range than Prius Prime, but when it ran out, then you were getting 33mpg vs 54mpg. In a really cold climate, it makes sense to have an ICE, HEV, or PHEV.
I live in New Hampshire, with cold winters and a Prius Prime PHEV. I'm sure that the car is designed to protect its battery, which means it won't charge when really cold. So I double down on that, and simple leave it at a medium state of charge and use HV mode anytime it's been below freezing in the last day or so, to avoid the chance that the battery temp sensor(s) don't pick up the coldest part of the battery, and then try jamming in too much charge rate at too low a temp. I don't want to damage the battery in winter if the battery has an odd pattern of some modules heating up faster/slower than others, or even find out he hard way how conservatively or not the software was written to trade battery life for ability to charge ASAP when it's "defrosting".
How will we charge EV in flats. Not easy on a day to day basis.
Thanks for the hybrid discussion. I love my 2019 PHEV Ioniq. Perfect for the long trips to see family (60+ mpg at motorway speeds) and, using home charger in the country, ideal for the 30 mile local journeys on electric. Suits me until I can afford an EV that will get me 150 miles on a charge.
When looking at affordability, remember to factor in the fuel savings. Depending on your usage and ability to charge at home (much cheaper) the extra you pay for an EV can be totally offset.
Liked your episode on "electrified vehicles". You're much calmer than I was when I heard the "self-charging" term came up. From a family currently owning 7 BEVs (though previously owned 2 Volts) I think you substantially under valued longer range PHEVs. Check in with Chelsea Sexton and she can give some additional insight here. From my understanding, PHEVs can provide the e-range needed for most days (or weeks) with the insurance of the hybrid mode. Cost of the second power plant is mitigated by the smaller battery. Reliability of the gas engine is good since it is not used much (e.g. after 30,000 miles you my have only 7,000 miles of IC engine use.). For families relying on a single car, the longer range PHEV may be good choice for now. However, see my next post on the danger of PHEVs.
I think also that the fossil engine in a PHEV might get less stressed because it doesn't get abused by the driver and the gearbox - it can run pretty much whenever it is running at its sweet spot.
@@londonwestman1 That's partly made up for by having a less powerful engine than a pure ICE car would, knowing that the battery can make up the difference. But I don't hesitate to put the pedal to the floor in any Toyota at any time for any reason. I've put the whip to many of them for the last 43 years, and I've never had an engine or drivetrain problem of any kind. In my PHEV (and ever regular Prius I've owned) the software does seem to make really good decisions about how to do what the driver is asking for, without killing the car. Likewise for getting great fuel economy. With my first Prius, I was surprised at how the (short but not insignificant) list of things where I would guess very differently from the car as to what was optimal, it almost invariably took a better guess than me. I'm both a mechanical engineer and a software/algorithm guy, and was very impressed that whoever programmed it must have had both great insight and a lot of testing/data available to them, to cover the counter-intuitive parts of the decision making it was never too far from being right about.
Thanks Jack and Robert. I’m driving an electric car since 2 years and I will never buy an ICE car ever again. Love from France!
I work over-night and my boss has got a new PHEV he plugs in at work and home. Between him using it overnight and the wife using it during the day he's saving enough on fuel a month to cover the monthly payment.
In Canada, the geography puts citys at 250-500km apart. Until BEV's are affordable at 1000km range, given the range loss at -30c. PHEV's will be the best seller for single vehicle family's.
Sadly I can’t afford an electric car, therefore a Toyota Yaris is the next best thing. £200 per month and 60mpg . I would love to buy a Kona or an eNiro but they are still so expensive to buy on a monthly contract