Inspecting & Measuring 36" Cincinnati Shaper Ram Ways
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.พ. 2020
- While at the Richard King scraping class, Keith, Lance, John worked on getting the Cincinnati shaper ram scraped in, with some helping guidance of Richard. This shaper belongs to John and although it's in pretty nice condition, one of the ram ways wasn't getting proper lubrication during it's previous ownership. The guys show how they use a King-Way tool to measure the differences between the two ways. This is some really interesting stuff, and all important things to understand and practice if you want to properly rebuild machine tools.
For info on Richard's classes visit his website. handscraping.com
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I'm not a machinist, and have never worked on a lathe or any other machine shop tool, but, I find a video like this absolutely incredible. Keep it up.
I have to thank you Adam for reminding me of scraping a 24 inch Cincinnati shaper about twenty years ago. You have no idea of how much I recalled watching you guys doing your thing. Thanks a bunch and peace too.
I'm happy to see people who are inspired to preserve machines that will never be made again.
Adam you might tell Lance that the light he was shining so close to the level will skew the reading. When I was in the Air Force (ret.) the radar I worked on required leveling of the pedestal table. A very accurate level was attached to the center front of the rotating mass and rotated to a position directly above each leg of the pedestal. The smallest and lightest crew member straddled the level with a flashlight about 24" above the level. He traveled around not changing his or the lights position because if the light got closer to or farther away from the level would go out of calibration. Light rays are energy and they will move the bubble of a precision level, you either keep the level illuminated with the light at a never changing distance or use the room illumination. Body heat will also cause problems, that's why the crewman rode the antenna without changing his position, stay as far away from the level as you can but still able to read the bubble.
Normally I hesitate at watching TH-cam videos that are 30 minutes long. I never tire of your uploads. I've learned so much over the years from you. And eagerly anticipate the coming years! A million thanks!!!
One of the most informative videos to date. Having worked with a couple old tool and die makers 30 years ago they used to talk about doing this very thing. I knew about hand scraping from them but had never seen it in rebuilding a machine. Thank you for this great video Adam.
I always had the knack and patience for doing this type of finishing. Once getting everything dialed in as just such a great feeling eh.
Wow. The knowledge and experience of you three together is immeasurable!
It's awesome watching this tedious work and the love you guys have for it. Makes me take more care in how I approach and solve my own challenges and repairs. Good stuff, Adam. Good stuff!
This is a great video Adam... AndThank you everyone for taking the time to explain the process ... Seen it done many times but I've never had the chance to do it myself.... Thanks again
The first time I worked in a machine shop I was about 17. There was an enormous Cincinnati shaper. I don’t know how big but at least as big as this one. The owner set a big gear from a saw mill in the vice vertically with the cutter running between the gear teeth. They were packed with wood. My job was just to clean the wood out from the gear teeth. He showed me how to work the shaper. When he engaged the ram it came forward, hit the vice and broke the casting off. It crashed to the floor. There was no cussing, not a word was said. If I had done that I would have been fired on the spot. The machine was repaired by brazing the casting back together. I finished the job.
Yikes
Thanks Adam, it is nice to see the proper use of a precision tool .
The Eminence and knowledge these guys have between them is humbling.! Great Vid Adam, thanks to you and the guys for sharing your knowledge.;)
It's nice to see a machine getting repaired and tuned back into use again
Lance does a good job of explaining the how and the why of what they're doing.
Thanks Adam. I love a beautifully scraped surface.
Well documented Adam, good to see Keith and Lance doing their thing. A lot less wear on that shaper than on the one I rebuilt as my first machine rebuild a while back. Enjoyed that video thanks and all the best
Mat
What a great get-togeather. So much knowledge shared. You can totally see everyone is really into it.
A great video. Wish you all a good weekend
I had asked you before about how the dovetail angle can be controlled/measured. This is the first time I have seen the Kingway device, and it is making more sense now. I'll watch this video a few more times. Thanks Adam for coming through on a fairly complex topic. I hope you have not divulged :classified" material!
What a gathering of knowledge and skill. Great explanations guys...!
Hi Adam, fantastic project, thank's for sharing the video it is very interesting and educational.
Very cool seeing Keith Rucker in one of your videos. I watched many videos from both of you folks.
Thanks Adam for the video!
Thanks for the video Adam. Very interesting.
Gotta love the green plastic speed square on the bench. Fun project!
I Would Love to Hear That Machine Run!
Great Education!!
Thanks Guys!
Why is it that my favorite youtube machinists always meets somewhwere or the other in the US 😀
Missing Keith Fenner here, guess he is still very busy moving his shop and stuff.
Thankyou Adam. Good information
This is amazing precision restoration work... Truing a shaper head... GJ
Good stuff boys. You guys sure have been bitten by the scraping bug, Richard is always fun to have around I will see him this fall. cheers
The Kingway level apparatus is a great tool but the reliability of its readings depends on the stability of the work under test in reference to gravity. The Kingway assembled weighs maybe 10 lb. The stability of that elevating table may be questionable in chasing tenths per foot when moving a 10 lb instrument in increments over 7 feet of way surface. The rigidity of an elevating table with its scissor elevating mechanism, hydraulics, and rubber tired casters is for purposes involving levels calibrated in small arc seconds pretty much like rubber. Thus, a straight surface may appear convex or a surface worn concave may appear straighter or even slightly convex depending on the net deflection rate of the aggregate elasticities..
Too late now but I'd suggest a machinist's jack on a pipe or tube column at each of the table's four corners taking most of the weight direct to the floor. This would eliminate the net elasticity of the table, the scissor linkage, hydraulics, casters, etc and no doubt greatly reduce uncertainty on the Kingway's readings. You still couldn't touch the table while readings are being taken or obviate care in taking successive readings and continually referencing your repeat zero. But it would stiffen the support by an order of magnitude or more ensuring the shaper ram wouldn't microscopically droop to follow the Kingway's 10 lb shifting progress from reading to reading.
Another picky point. Smaller straightedges are as heat sensitive as larger ones requiring two people or a crane to handle. A significant virtue of the King design straight edge is the obvious hand grip openings at either end of the casting; the message couldn't be clearer: "Grip Here." It's tempting to single hand a smaller straightedge by grasping the center of the upper edge of the casting. If sensitive work is in the near future (the table ways on a surface grinder saddle are certainly sensitive) continued casual handling of the straight edge will warm that portion of the casting causing the reference face to bow an important trifle. Subsequent scraping results in way surfaces complying to a bowed straight edge DAMHIKT - BIG time.
Protect scraping reference tooling from localized heat by grasping them two-handed towards the ends, or better, use oven or barbecue mitts, a pad of clean shiop towels etc. Even a moment's bare handed handling transfers a pulse of heat into the casting mass expanding it and causing a half hour or an hour delay for thermal equilibrium to re-establish.
Still skeptical? Conduct this test. Place a clean straight edge on a good surface plate and note where it hinges. Place your warm bare hand on the center of the camelback for a measured minute then check the hingeing again. The hingeing will shift to the ends of the straight edge by an amount depending on the heat of your hands and the mass of the casting.
Everything really IS made out of rubber.
This is great stuff!
Thank you, Adam, for showing this and explaining what was going on. One of the things I've always wondered about your shaper was how flat the ram and ram-ways are and how you would measure how much they deviate from being true flat or what tolerances you accept. Naturally, if there is a problem with the ram and ram-ways, the accuracy of your work would suffer as well.
Booth, Rucker and Baltzley the machinist equivalent of Crosby , Stills and Nash or Pavarotti , Carerras and Domingo
That crane setup wedged in the forklift forks is all I could focus on lol
I learning every time, great video!!
Very likeable people in the video. And a high concentration of know-how!
I'd like to see the big grinder in operation. Thanks Adam very interesting.
Thanks for a very informative video.
Good video. I have a 7" sharper that I am fixing up that had a complete oil system failure. Looking forward to try to scrape it in.
Are you going to be doing a video on how they scraped in the angled ways on the surface grinder? Thanks.
Thanks Adam!! Great content I really enjoyed the video!!
The first time I worked on a shaper was in 1958 in a trade school in Manhattan. Big chips were flying.
Mr Pete spoke of shapers that produced chips by the pound or more, some you could feel it when they fell to the floor. I wouldn't mind seeing one of those in action.
Good practise to use a secondary level on that ram to be sure things arent moving around when youre your using a KW to gauge parallelism/straightness, especially when youre up on a relatively flexible setup like a scissor lift.
Good to see those familiar, wise faces!...
Interesting, Thanks
You guys are so cool!
I'm looking forward to the Vacaville class
Wonderful !
Surprised to see the locomotive steam engine restorer in this video. He has some very interesting vids of steam engines ! Thanks for the review.
thank you
Hey Adam, Would filling the gouges with some hard epoxy/silver solder/bronze brazing make things any better or any worse? I have some neglected machinery with me with similar wear, I'm trying to figure out a time-efficient but long lasting way of fixing it.
Could they have filled in the worn grooves on the Cincinnati shaper with Turcite? Would it have served any useful purpose?
I have mostly used Dykem Hi Spot. Seeing this red stuff reminds me of my trainee days when I was taught using red lead, illegal now.
As you said: “good learning”.
Several rounds of scraping to knock that thing down several thousandths. I think for a small part like that I would have put it on the granite and indicated from that rather than chasing a level over and over but I am sure this was good practice!
Number 1, great vid.
Nice!! Very interesting.... :-)
It confuses me how the scraped surface can look so rough, but be accurately flat.
Think of it like a mountain range where the tops have been cut off the top of every mountain at the same height.
i was thinking could you use cmm to scan the topography and then scrape? I figure it was valid way to do it.
I do not know if Richard King told you about Scorex Cast Iron. It is a product I sell at Devitt Machinery Co that was design to fill in bad scores like the ones seen in this video. It is able to be scraped in flat with the rest of the way. It is a cast iron filled two part epoxy. It is a great way to fix scores with out having to machine scorn surfaces. Check us out!
I'm impressed with OSHA approved forklift lift bar!
Nice!!!!
Has a posse been formed to track down the Hide Your Carbons that slipped away? If caught they do seem to enjoy chains and just the right amount of pressure.
Peace.
Hey yaul, Marys husband is a getting him self a 9500 lb monarch lathe this Saturday! Me so happy!
That seems convoluted. Are you saying your husband is getting a monarch?
Shhhh Mary Dont know know yet
I wonder if they used shapers to make shapers in the factory.
Probably planers. Some items you could gang machine on that big table.
Looks like the bottom of the way(or top, not sure how its oriented) has a round bottom. How was it leveled on the wood table? Or do you adjust the indicator so it reads level at one end and not worry about precisely centering the way on the table?
Edit: i think my question was answered later in the video
Yes, it doesn't matter if it's level, as long as it's close. The kingway tool can be adjusted to read level.
Hi Adam,
My grandfather started a dump truck company that went to my father and eventually me. I retired and closed the business Jan 2018. He had a saying for parts that were worn out due to lack of lubrication "Too much grease". I was about 10 when I first heard that expression and it had me puzzled. It was my father that explained it to me. That saying came to mind when I saw John's ram worn due to lack of lubrication. :-)
Don D'Egidio I Don’t get it either, but hey, English is not my 1st language.
@@tomahoks Tom, My father said it really means the opposite, not enough lubrication was used. :-)
if temperature and/or even sunlight can effect the measurement of the bubble then wouldnt holding that flashlight a half inch away from the bubble effect the temperature of the fluid inside? those little flashlights are pretty bright and handy but they do put off a decent amount of heat, at least mine does.
Yippee talking about two different things. Heating the huge cast iron part (which will heat unevenly) is different from heating the "spirits" (alcohol) inside the level. Hearing the liquid doesn't matter because it'll self level regardless of the temp. Also, that's a little led flashlight, that's not very bright, and it doesn't put out very much heat. LEDs don't put out heat, but the enclosure gets hot for other efficiency issues.
Just having taken possession of a 32" Cincinnati scraper and not having any machining experience, I realize I have my work cut out for me!
So. How do you avoid the smudging?
Do you have a brand name,and a place where I can get the red/black/yellow/blue marking compounds?Thanks!
8:45 aaaaaaaaaaa that's how those "king's ways" are used.... I work in visual effects so this machining/abom79/thisoldtony is rather something that I watch for relaxation and enjoyment but I couldn't figure out where this "ways" are placed in the shaper/lathe, which part is it... now I know :) thanks Adam, I really like your channel!!
6:04 I can't be the only who yelled at their monitor DON'T STAND UNDER THE FORKS!
especially with that janky setup
who ever put that jib on like that needs there arss kicked
Hello buddy, how are you! I would like to learn everything. please explain to me as I what are these inscriptions in the guides of this machine. I would love to learn. thanks
🇧🇷
Really amazing how accurate something as simple a bubble can be, I also think 'Plumb Lines' are also known for being incredibly accurate?
Hard to trick gravity.
Use fishing line, and have the weight in oil in a container. Very accurate.
bubble levels are great, but you have be careful with em especially when youre getting down .0003 in 12
cool ..
So, Adam. John's is bigger than yours?
انا معجب بشغلك بتوفيق ومن نجاح لنجاح
Surely you will have built up from the red on the ball?
Hey there, what scraping classes? Somebody has to fix it..
lance... the man for ( it most b flat ! ) hahaha
som pritty lurningscool ther. i like it adam..
gr fr holland .
Am I correct in assuming that massive casting would not twist even if poorly supported?
Do you follow Keith Rucker's channel? He was speaking about his big planer restoration last week, and how he was about to fix what appeared to be a sag in the solid casting by adjusting the central supports. It was not a lot, but it still surprised me how much a big casting like that would flex due to its own weight. I think it was this video
th-cam.com/video/BTj_elsrYwE/w-d-xo.html
Beautiful work, and I had been wondering how you would be dealing with the different heights of the sides. Hope you'll show that in another video.
Yes, the remnants of the galling will be insignificant, but I'd be curious about what went wrong with the lubrication on that one side.
Questions:
You're doing all your work on the ram when it is upside down and mostly unsupported on the ends. This means that any effect due to gravity will be the opposite of that when installed and in use. Will that effect be insignificant or will you correct it later?
Were you also careful to support the machine base equally at all its feet so that there would be no stresses on it that would cause it to change shape? Maybe this just isn't a problem because the shaper base is tall, with a relatively small footprint, compared to something like a lathe or Keith's planer.
You're talking about huge chunks of CI. They probably wouldn't be able to measure the deflection having it turned upside down, and not having it supported at the bessel/airy points. You're talking about millions over that length. Their transfer straight edges, and the master granite plate they used when it was scraped in, aren't even that precise. (They could be, but probably not.) Does it move? Yes. It's it measurable, not really with their tools. (It's outside the tolerance.)
Lathe beds are also huge chunks of CI, but proper installation requires that their feet be shimmed to take out any twist or bend over their length. It's easy to say that the effect is so small that it can be ignored, but I'd still like to see it proved.
When I rescraped my shaper, the ram was 30” or so. I printed it on a granite SP and had to step print to get coverage. Final measurements of the machine all well inside 0.0002”:12”. These guys have had far more training than I had so would think they got the basics of support possible errors covered. But you make a very valid point. It’s hard to include everything in a video and keep it short and entertaining. All the best Mat
When measuring so accurate, doesn't the ram has to be supported the whole length? Just wondering.
Is the Kingsway also used the level lathes?
My thinking exactly
The Kingsway tool would change how the ram tilts with its weight. I think it doesn't influence the measurement across though, only lengthwise.
And you can use the Kingsway to level about anything with ways I would think.
as long as the ram is supported roughly at the points of minimum sag it's fine for this job.
Why don't they use a more rigid table ?
hey just found a interesting scraping snippet on this old documentry at 4:00min " INTRODUCTION TO THE MARINE DIESEL ENGINE "
Did Keith Rucker say "three tenths of an inch to a foot"? At 2' 16" Did he mean three tenths of a thou, to a foot?
Adam you have to remember when you touch anything, you have ABOM fingers.
I didn't see how they ensured the two ways were coplanar. Having scraped one way flat, the Kingway measurements simply ensure that the other way is parallel to the first, but give no indication of whether the two ways are coplanar. Presumably they have to be for it to work.
Interesting Abom one thing I really wanted to see was them actually hand scraping and what’s used for that. Is it anything like a lapping stone or something like that. Like I said I’m new to this and looking to buy my first and new lathe mill combo sense I’m not super rich and machines like you guys have are large and far away sense I’m 1000 miles north of Seattle WA in Alaska.
Look back in Kieth Rucker's videos. He has hosted several Richard King classes. The whole process is explained pretty well.
Bunch of machines in Vancouver BC available have to be gone by the end of the month. Contact me if you are interested.
bcbloc02 yes I’m interested do you have pics of the machines.
@@donpetrey8007 Only the few they sent me. email me at bcbloc02 at yahoo dot com and i will forward you the email
They will need to increased the metered amount of oil going to scored way because the score was not repaired properly. The proper way to repair way damage is with products like Moglice. Oil is going run into the score marks thus reducing the amount oil on the way bearing surfaces. Even the upper part of the ram's score marks will fill with oil due to hydraulic pressure. If you are going to fix it fix it right!
it can still be mogliced
Whats the thick blue coating for on the grinder table? I cant remember what Adam called it. Whats the purpose? Adam, can you speak to that product in the future, Ive seen it come up before.
I believe its called "Turcite"
It is Tucite as Jeff O pointed out. It is an acetal composite used for building up a surface. Grinding and milling remove metal to correct badly worn surfaces. You cannot allow this on certain surfaces to maintain alignment and thus need to add material back to make up for the removed metal (the gear rack in the middle of the table would not mesh properly with the drive gear on the base). Turcite and Rulon (a bronze impregnated teflon used similarly to turcite) have excellent friction and wear properties and are relatively easy to scrape, plus they are just epoxied onto the surface. You can't weld buildup or braze on most of these surfaces as the shrinkage would cause way too much warping and possibly other bad things.
the mechanic in the blu shirt works in a train museum as a voluntair????
Outstanding video. That galling would bother me. I suppose the expense of having it ground by that Wisconsin outfit isn't justified, but still.
How much forgiveness is in the ways? Can it be reground to bring it back into spec?
Grinding these big machines takes an even bigger machine and can be very expensive. The machine to be ground may not be worth the cost. And, after it's ground, it will probably need to be scraped to reach the kind of precision these guys are aiming for. Precision is the main purpose for scraping. Oil retension is kind of a nice side effect.
@@Grandpa82547 if they are precision ground they only need to be flaked for oil retention
How is a grove caused by lack of oil in the past different from an oil grove intentionally cut into a similar surface? Smooth the grove edges, scrape the entire surface, and call it quits. As long as the surface has no projections I see no problem.
It ha worn and is not flat anymore
What he said^. An oil grove is a groove in a flat way. These grooves are in a not flat way. If it was just a groove, it'd be no big deal, but it's worn the middle of the entire surface.
Hiya Adam
How would you go about scraping hardened ways? The ways on my lathe has about a 7 thou dip around the chuck, certainly effects accuracy. Sadly I can’t afford to have it ground professionally, as that would cost more than a new lathe.
If it’s got degree of wear, it’s below the harder surface. A carbide tipped scraper will take off the hard surface and you can scrape the softer cast below it. With skill you can rig up an angle grinder to rough off most of the hard surface, you can also screw it up pretty quick !
@@lookcreations I watched a video out of Russia where the guy did exactly what you described on a mill he rescued from a scrap yard. Short contact strokes, creating the same patterns you would with a scraper. Amazing what you can get away with using an angle grinder and a new wheel, and keep it as flat to the work as possible. After that he was able to quickly bring it in with hand scraping, and to cap it off he did the final pass in a way that put a perfect checkerboard pattern on it. Beautiful work. Wish I could remember who that guy was.
If you have what I call a "Double D.I.Y.D. situation," I'd give it a shot. May not get it perfect, but if you can get it at least better, that's better than doing nothing ... or paying a whole lot.
diggerop I’ve heard about that video, but can’t seem to find it, ha ha, even tried google in Russian, but my Russian is minimal at best.
I’ve got a 12x24 Clausing, so it’s a small-ish lathe.
I’ve leveled the bed with a Starrett 199, and it pretty much confirms what a indicator on the tailstock says - a dip of about 6-7 thousands around the chuck area. When making test cuts, there’s a 4 tenths bulge there.
Weird thing is leveling the bed using the flats of the bed, and it’s different than putting the level on the cross slide. The most accurate cut is when I level using the level on the cross slide.
lookcreations I’ve picked up a few cast steel angles from the scrap yard that I was going to practice some angle grinder scraping on. Ha ha, I bet certain experts would be appalled at that technique. Hey, if it works, and produces good results, that’s all that matters in my book 😀
I’ll also give the carbide scraper a try on this scrap cast steel, as it seems almost as hard as the hardened ways.
Thanks
@@AndySomogyi You have to work out where the wear is, when you level with one set of datums it may compensate for the wear to a degree. The flats will usually show wear on the saddle bearing face towards the head stock but be good at the tail stock. Where as the tailstock flat way will be worn more for a few inches infront of its rest position at teh free end of the lateh and then the remaining wear depends on how its been used. You can use your level on blocks to check each flat way along its length to map out these ways. Then use the mapped out worn ways to work out what wear is left on the V ways. A level of 0.0005"/10 is ideal. Mat
The Kingway fixture is an impressive tool. It wasn't obvious to me from the video footage that the bubble vials were adjustable. Your naration explained how it is used. You made it clear that it can only give relative lack of parallelism between parallel way surfaces, but if the master plane is not flat you don't know which way surface is contributing to the variance. At this point we need to point out that the straight edge is used to validate the master way and the master way is scraped to the flatness of the straight edge.
In the case of the Cincinnati wear, the corrected master way validates what needs to be done to correct wear in the grossly worn way. I assume that you also validate flatness and parallelism of the second way toggling back and forth with the Kingway gauge and the master straight edge.
Please explain the machine construction that allows you to remove material on both the slide and the machine base and on both the flat and dovetail way surfaces. I assume that the machine is gibbed. Does it use tapered gibs or flat gibs? Are the gibs thick enough to take up the lost way material? Do the gibs need to be resurfaced/scraped?
Relative parallel way "height" isn't much concern??? A shaper uses single point tooling, so if one parallel way is taller than the other it makes little difference???
I have never done any scraping to correct error, but I have inspected and diagnosed error many times. I never even knew of the Kingway fixture. I have done my measurements with cruder tooling using homemade squaring fixtures to span parallel ways and a precision level to track variance. Our levels were Starrett .0005"/foot levels. I would smoosh the level into balls of clay to zero the level. The Kingway definitely refines the process. I like that the Kingway reference foot or anvil is cylindrical. This gives two point contact. My homemade fixtures used flat ground reference surfaces, so they would be less sensitive than the Kingway design.
Is the cutout on the reference foot to allow you to obtain two point contact on the outside of a V way?
Our Toyoda grinders used precision needle roller bearing packs between the flat and V way surfaces. These were exceedingly durable and accurate. Moving the machine required jacking up the moving machine member, removing the roller bearing packs, and inserting a protective bearing surface plastic spacer. This prevented false brenelling caused by vibration caused by transport. We only resorted to this step when trucking a machine. We didn't take this precaution if only moving it 100' in the shop.
Other inspection tools are electronic levels and laser inferometers. I'm sure I misspelled that!!! These require a lot more investment and specific training. Our shop never purchased these toys and I had to contract these services when this accuracy or speed of diagnosis was required.
Scraping the shaper way surfaces will change the squareness of the slide to the table vertical travel. Also the table surface will no longer be parallel to the slide travel. Will "you" use the assembled shaper to resurface the table surface flat and parallel to the slide axis travel?
I still want to know which is X, Y and Z axis on a shaper? I would call the slide Z, cross slide X and elevation axis Y.
Keep posting this content. Reliving my employment years is rewarding.
You’ve pretty much grasped the aspects of what was shown in the video. I completely stripped, scraped and rebuilt a shaper half this size and made a record of the process. Maintaining all the geometry takes some thought and mindfulness but it is not rocket science. As you say a shaper isn’t single point cutting and can recut it’s own part bed. I’m sure the guys in the video can sort it.