Surface Plate Reconditioning Moore Pattern Scraping
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 พ.ย. 2018
- In this video we recondition an old tired Taft Peirce cast iron surface plate for my friend Carla. There were significant dings and divots in the plate so it was surface ground prior to hand scraping. The technique used is the same pattern and style of scraping used by the Moore special tool company for its jig borers and measuring machines. For more information on this style of scraping check out "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" By Wayne Moore.
archive.org/details/Foundatio...
In other news, Tom Lipton get sued by the Nike corporation for 18,347 counts of trademark infringement.
Did you really take a screenshot.......magnify .....and count......Lol !!!
....now I get it....duhhh... me!
That is a thing of beauty Tom, well done! Very nice consistent cresents and distribution. Having it ground first is very smart I would have done the same thing. Thanks for posting the link to my video.
ATB, Robin
Robin what is ATB lol iv see you post that several times now lol
"All the best"
@@ROBRENZ ahh very good
All Terrain Bicycle
@@superdansilverman lol
Your scraping has a nice rhythm.
Beautyful pattern, nice!
Beautiful work Tom. Thanks for sharing
You're an artist Tom. Beautiful work.
Wow, beautiful shots Tom. Thanks for taking us along for the ride !
So awesome that you're back to making videos regularly. I had gone back through your back catalog a few times and am really excited for new episodes. Cheers!
Beautiful job! Thanks for the video.
Very well done Tom, another one of works of art my friend!
Great show, as usual, Tom.
Wait, that is art !!! I think I drooled. Thanks for sharing
Very impressive pattern.
It's because of you, Robin, and Stefan that I became interested in scraping - a subject I thought I had no interest in.
Thank you.
Looks great Tom, your lady friend is going to be very happy with the result.
When you poured the oil to it, I could feel the plate thinking; AHHHHHHHHH!
Cheers!
It's like a piece of art, good job!
Wow looks like a piece of art. Amazing skill
Nice job Tom! Looks great!
Steve
Work of art and so cool to watch!
the effort going into to that is amazing.little work.huge rewards!
Is ART , Brother.... built by focus , concentration and forearms....beautiful...!!
And back I go to reading the machine tool reconditioning I go, thanks for the inspiration Tom.
Great pattern, thanks for sharing!
Looks good Tom👌👍
Scraping is interesting to watch and I’m subscribed to at least a dozen channels in the hopes that they’ll show more.
Very neat job 👍
That pattern looks real close the one shown in 'Foundations Of Mechanical Accuracy' Tom. Well done mate! :)
Nice, looks great.
Fascinating.
I have only seen the technique done once before - it was a large ship engine undergoing refurb but still inside the ship. New pistons, honing and bearings etc. It was far far easier and less costly to do 'in ship'.
Anyway, a big end bearing wasn't fitting well. The rest (7 others) had worked well but the team had a real problem matching the other tolerances with that last one. To fix it they hand scraped the crank shaft bearing point. Engineers blue, lots of meticulous scraping, cleaning, measuring and repeating and they did it. Obviously they aimed for closer to and finished with a more polished end result.
Not only would it give a better fit but it would help lubricate too. It's a dying art and very much what fitters did back in the day.
I am apparently the paint drying spectator type. Mesmerizing video with a beautiful final product.
When I started my apprenticeship in 1966, scraping was a part of it. What has been shown here seems to be the final operation of cutting frost marks or flaking used for oil retention on a bearing surface. The main reason for cutting these on a surface plate is eye candy.
what a beauty. Thanks for the great video. I'd love to see a time lapse of this.
Nice job Tom, the pattern looked really consistent. I need to learn more about scraping for sure, especially the different kinds depending on the application.
I think once you get into the "zone", scraping can be very theraputic and good for the soul.
Great camera work. At college in the UK we learned scraping on our own surface plates. But they were 6x8".....
Regards from NE Thailand
Nice work Tom. Hello from Greece.
Hi Tom, greetings from Oswaldtwistle in Lancashire England, whilst serving my time in the tool room at a Royal Ordnance Factory in the 60s my mentor on the fitting benches decided it was time to learn how to scrape “swallowtails” on a surface plate but first of all I had to make a scraper out of an old 10” bastard file. The end had to be hammered into a flange shape, hardened and tempered then ground and sharpened on an oil stone, it took me quite a while to get the hang of it but like sharpening twist drills you never ever forget how to do it. It was a pleasure to watch a craftsman make it look so easy. People have asked why scrape patterns? My old mentor said it was to stop instruments like scribing blocks “ringing” to the plate, there may be an element of truth in it but personally I think it looks professional and aesthetically pleasing.
great looking scraping Tom, I also use Advanced Grinding they always do a great job for me.
We the People demand the full-length video on scraping this thing :D good job tom, just today is started to scrape the topslide of my lathe...
ohhh that looked so nice. I want one... I have a cast iron surface plate, maybe I'll learn on that so I can do my cross slide ... that is a thing of beauty.
Great coffe break. same Carla with the machine plaque's and ID tags? Those sandvic handles best price I found $107. saw a couple Anderson bros. I shoulda bid on, with the bid I'da had some doe left for a couple ox tools T's all things rolling round in my head. thanks tom
beautiful !
very nice work,, very nice ,,
You make it look easy
Very Cool Tom, I'm building a stand right now for a cast iron plate I recently picked up. But I am hoping it will clean up nice. If not I know where to drop it off.
Thank you! Great job!!
Nice-looking curl scraping. Used to be quite common back when, but hard to find today.
VERY impressive
Wow,very interesting,enjoyed ,thanks very much. Xxx
Really, really super nice Tom! Really a work of art, I'm sure she'll cherish it :) Also, great work on the camera angles. I slowed it down to 0.25 speed in the close-up stroke shots to really study the stroke and immediately went out into the garage to give it another try. Sure enough, I'm starting to make crescent-like marks now. Thanks very much for that; it's really hard to pick up the stroke from descriptions, but seeing it in slow-mo like that (along with the cool sound at that speed) really helped me improve :)
it’s a beauty!
i guess i need to focus my workshop time a little better.. i dont seem to have spare time to do this atm. little impressed that you do!
This is an amazing piece of work done in reviving surface plate. Not only a special technique is used for the outcome, its pleasingly aesthetic to eyes. Superb work accomplished, as always by you, Sir. I am your fan, Sir and you are my first Guru in Machining as far as the Metalworking is concerned. Your guidance helped me tremendously, in opening of my own Entrepreneurial venture and gave me enough confidence of running and maintaning it. Thanks a Ton for all that you have done and worked and believed in. Lots of respects to you and your family. Thanks. My best wishes from New Delhi, India.
Не сотвори себе кумира Вася !
Very, super, nice, and ending with a well spread layer of sun tan oil on the back!
Hi Tom L
Greetings from Melbourne OZ
Firstly I am in awe of your consistency and technique not a squiggle out of place.
However I am not so sure of the contract surface grinding approach will work for all.
I recently had some surface grinding quoted on large work pieces made from rather gummy mild steel, about 1000mm x 300mm I was unable the get the grinders to quote to surface plate accuracy, Their machines were not accurate enough. over a large area.
See link below to Starrett. Also a search on the Whitworth 3 plate method. Whithworth peceeds Moore by several generations (Although he is unlikely to be the first)
In the end I did it the hard way and lapped them in to match known accuracy granite plate. And yes it was hard work. I used surface ground flat quarter sheet steel sanding blocks and various grades of aluminium oxide woodworking paper!! starting with 120 grit (because it cuts fast at least for a while) followed by smaller and smaller blocks. and finer grades of paper. if I had 80 grit I would have started with that.
Some of the new super abrasives would be worth trying here, alas not in stock, I did try various grades of emery I had in stock, too slow.
Lapping/sanding is different to scraping, you loose the blue spotting marks the first stroke of the paper, My solution is to cross hatch the blued spotting marks with a scriber digging into the work piece a little, once this is done the bluing can be washed off (it slows down the sandpaper action better if done dry with aluminium oxide). I can then remove all the scratch marks by sanding knowing that I have reduced the height of the high spots.
Repeat this process until the surface us nearly covered with spotting, At this point reduce the pressure on the scriber and finally work on the blued marks without scribing then a final stoning.
This method works for me.
Regards
John
www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-granite/precision-granite-faq
www.google.com.au/search?rlz=1C1ASUT_enAU791AU791&q=whitworth+3+plate+method&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOs5axo8TeAhVObn0KHRyrBTMQBQgrKAA&biw=1143&bih=689
You're friend must have been blown away by the result
Wow, very nice thx!
THIS is the reason why Robots will NOT replace a Skilled Craftsman!! Absolutely brilliant video on how precision machinery is made!! STILL Dumbfounded!! I think you enjoyed playing in the "shmoo" a bit too much, however, my friend!! Good stuffs!!
Ive just got a TFY Bridgepost copy and the ways are scraped like this but very wide spacings. I thought is was just a quick Taiwan job, but now im quite pleased with it
Nice job Tom. I generally find scraping will improve even a well ground surface due to the inherent limitations of grinding (heat/fixturing distortion/etc), especially on something like this. You don't mention spotting it after scraping, but it would be interesting to see how it compared to what you thought was "flat" to begin with.
I think some of the comments here reflect that some may not appreciate that ground surfaces don't spot well, nor do they make good surface plates.
Takes a while to get those curls and avoid the wrist locking up ! Nicely done Tom' loved the short sequence where you adjusted lighting / contrast - it made the pattern pop out. Its interesting to see your approach to laying down the regular pattern of curls / marks - Ive been trying to reproduce smaller curls (say 1/4" tail to tail) while maintaining the scoop and width - tighter if you will. That creates a much more dense PPI and scrape depth - its murder on the hands until you get it right .. by which time the carbide is blunt and you start again :-) All the best Mat
Another good video Tom. Glad to see you back a bit more frequently. I was also wondering how you check something that size (unless you have a larger surface plate).
How much time did the scraping take? What grade of surface plate accuracy did you achieve? Showing an accuracy check would have been cool. Enjoyable video. You knew just how much scraping to show.
So you start with an old large plate and then end up with the little one on top when you're done? ha. That took a large surface grinder to refinish. The scraping you did was really cool.
So how many PPI does it spot?
It's a nice pattern for sure, but I can’t help but wonder how this achieves the goal set out in Connelly Machine Tool Reconditioning; arriving at a flat plane, in the right location, with the correct geometry “”””and””” the appropriate bearing quality for the application.
Very interesting, I am interested in trying my hand at scraping and when I do I want to learn this method. I am going to try and get together with Robin for a lesson so that I don't develop bad habits right from the beginning. Easier to do it right the first time than try and correct it later. Thanks for sharing.
should i cast up some surface plates? have a pattern for a 7" x 7"
@@OldIronShops Not as interested in plates, but let me know if you cast any camel back straightedges, I'll buy one
@@superdansilverman talk to Garry cude tools 4 machines he sells them.
An interesting project, but I don't know that I would have any use for it. I have a good surface plate, give me a good reason that I need an iron one.
@@sharkrivermachine it is small and can be places onto a pare that is to be scraped would also make a very good base for a indecator test stand
Beauty!
In the UK, or where I served my time, this is called "Frosting", it is normally performed after scraping flat, to hide the scraping marks, yes, it is also provides pockets for lubrication, and a depression for contaminants to reside. I would be most surprised that a large ground surface would pass as being flat, but, it may well be fit for purpose depending on its intended use.
Still a good example of the art.
Bosted Tap, I agree with you. From what I saw in the video, Tom is frosting the surface. When I took a coarse in machine reconditioning. "Scraping" simply explained how the metal was removed. There was scraping, flaking, and frosting. Just exactly as you said. We scraped the machine for a true accurate surface, an and then applied a frosting or flowering as a finishing step. Frosting was the final touch and was considered a signature of the artist because everyone's was different.
In and around Manchester and across to Leeds, its referred to as 'curling' - similar to the 'crescent' of Moore but not the same as in Toms vid' - Tom did say he was 'only breaking up the ground surface' - I assume he didnt show the other steps as he just wanted to demo' the scrape pattern' . Good to see an alternative approach by the likes of Tom & Robin. There are some great vids' from around the world showing different techniques of a practice seldom used by businesses now days.
@@lookcreations , I've heard it called that, I'm from near Wolverhampton.
A lot of my scraping was on copper, ref resistance welding, a pain in the bum, as the copper being quite reactive and blunting our HSS tools. It was nice to scrape steel after that, and of course cast iron.
Toms frosting is quite good, better than me, my issue was that it was easily confused with actual scraping, I've seen people on TH-cam, dragging a scraper, and calling that an established procedure.
Scraping is a method of removing material when the part or component is at its natural state, as opposed to being clamped or magnetically held on a machine, and where it is inherently difficult to machine off.
Not seen any TH-camrs lying on the back scraping above you yet!.
Best regards to Manchester.
Was that vactra you oiled it with? I have a 24 X 36" cast iron plate I've had since about 86. It had some light pitting, so i machined it on Thanksgiving day on an old planer mill with a bridgeport head rigged up on it. I used a home made 10" fly-cutter with a couple carbide lathe tools installed. I was working in a pattern shop, and used it glue up literally tons of wood. I'm considering some sort of refinish for it, is the sandvick a carbide bit?
Awesome scrape, but aren't you supposed to reblue and recheck against your master plate for the high spots? Or were you going to a close enough with the grind then a general scrape?
He did the latter. He was only scraping for bearing (flaking), not for flatness.
My thoughts exactly. I didn't quite understand this. I can see putting bearing marks on ways etc, but don't understand the point with surface plates which aren't bearing surfaces.
@@SmeeUncleJoe I think it's to reduce the inconvenience of "stickyness". Two perfectly flat surfaces will stick together and are hard to separate, even slide. The scrape cavities do not effect the overall flatness of the plate...because whatever item and guage that is placed upon the surface will bridge those scratches. With the scatches, things will slide easilier and lift off effortlessly. Oddly...they may increase the life of the plate surface as well... I speculate.
@@WAVETUBE84 I get all that to a point .... but ....... the chances of 'ringing' two parts together on a surface plate are pretty remote and he really went to town saturating the plate with birds, to the extent that the statistical probabilities of raising a burr or introducing a defect to the flatness seems to be pretty high. I'm having to think back many, many decades now to when i saw my last cast iron [plate - they are all granite now - and try and remember if they were that rich with scores. Maybe they were... I can't remember.
Earplugs a must!
What's the purpose of all the hook scraping? Is it to relieve surface friction? It looks cool . I'm just not getting why dig at a surface that is to be counted on for its flat plane...
I had the same thought when I first saw the process this winter. What I learned was the divits are for oil to accumulate in, creating a 'bearing' like surface, for things to float on.
This is in reference to the ways of a lathe, mill, or such. Didn't know it could be done to a surface plate, but then I didn't know there were cast iron plates, either.
Curious if you threw the repeat-o-meter on it...
Tom any ideal how many hours, looks amazing
Awesome video as usual. Random question: Do you know where Tom's Techniques went? I headed over there from your recommended channels, and love the channel just like yours. Seems he dropped off the map a year ago? Just wondering if you new what happened. Keep up the great work, I appreciate all you do. I have learned so much from you and a few others on here, I can not thank you guys enough.
As with Robins work, this looks really nice.... but I do wonder, and dream about, how this type of "pattern" scrapping addresses flatness and the desire to produce a plane- maybe that isn't the goal???. I can see this being the final pattern applied to a “flat” surface - let's not debate the ability to produce such a thing, but can’t help but wonder how this achieves the goal set out in Connelly Machine Tool Reconditioning; arriving at a flat plane, in the right location, with the correct geometry “”””and””” the appropriate bearing quality for the application. It’s all good fun though isn’t it 😊 Geez you’ve definitely mastered that pattern!! Nice piece!! Take Care.
This would be a cool kitchen knife finish
Nice work Tom. Can you tell me what brand your aprons are?
Looks great, Tom! What was the actual amount of time scraping?
It's a beautiful pattern, somewhere between leather and...
It's embarassing to admit, but I've a real nice scraper in my mechanic's tool box since the '80's, when I bought it at a grage sale for a couple of bucks, cause it looked like a good gasket scraper.
It wasn't a very good gasket tool, too easy for the carbide to gouge the cast iron deck, or head surface, so it went unused for the last 30+ years.
I just learned what it was, this Winter, watching This Old Tony work on his surface grinder.
Thanks, Tom...
Could you be so kind to post a high resolution picture of that scraping finish? That pattern would be really nice as a desktop background picture.
Beautiful work as always Tom. As others have said a shot showing a print off one of your granite surface plates would have been nice. But I've watched enough of your videos to know very well you would have checked it. No one who consistently produces high level work and shows that in every single video would have done any less. Some people you can just trust to prove there work to there own personal satisfaction level and that's good enough for me.
Spa treatment with a happy ending :)
Mr Lipton, Have you seen an electric scraper that does the hook pattern? Or the natural frequency of steel causes chatter and does not permit it? Because besides going in and out the blade has to go up and down and side to side. I guess one could make it to move slow to prevent chatter. Would be nice.. to set up a cnc table and have it go in a grid pattern. That is after grinding the surface, so it is flat to begin with.
Now that right there is a piece of machine shop jewelry.
Tom, I noticed that your video quality has improved lately. Did you get a new camera??
What oil did you use for the spa treatment?
It looks very nice. But what's the purpose of this scrapping if the grinding is OK in first place?
WOW la machine
Well done. Why not use bowling alley wax or
Floor wax to protect it?
I believe it’s common on machinery for protection. I am surely not saying you are wrong. Great job.
The scrapping sounds like the song The lion sleeps tonight. (Wimoweh)
I have that wilton vise! Found it at a yard sale for 5 dollars
How do I purchase one of the little surface plates that you sell??
So it looks like you can use a misaligned fly cutter to do the same thing rather then by hand. You might even be able to get a finer grained intervals. Please, please explain to me the difference.
so how many times did you have to scrape this plate? i thought that you would need to scrape once then use dye to find the high and scrap again.
First to view and post. Nice job.
I'm also a manufacturer of Cast iron surface plate, anvil, sine bar, straight edge, hammer, tong, v block, angle plate and other items related to cast iron
Hey Tom.
Just wondering, why are cast surface plates scraped and granite ones lapped?
Im no expert, but you can scrape cast iron so they do, granite plates are used because they are more stable than cast iron and chip instead of being deformed, granite must be lapped for its surface to have a good finish
Just watched Screwballs Jackass eating onions Video. Was wondering I read somewhere that back when these were new people used pure tungsten. Can these Synchrowaves run the newer lanthanotid and thoriated electrodes?
Hi Tom was the plate Blanchard Ground or Surface Ground? Which is correct?
How flat is it?
I can't read the final quote posted on the screen. There is a pop-up link to the other scraping video overlapping the text. I thought that the Moore pattern scraping was used to hold oil on sliding surfaces; flaking. I'm confused so I guess some reading is necessary. Stay safe and thanks for posting.
I did not see it compared to a certified granite plate for flatness. I wonder what Keith Rucker has to say about this scraping?