Portuguese Planning Refused! What Happened & How To Avoid It. Life Reimagined
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.พ. 2021
- This week we were both in shock after receiving some unexpected news from the Camara. It seems our dream of building an Eco Resort on this land in Portimao might be over because of an unlucky series of events.
Find out what exactly went on with our planning application and see how you can avoid it if you're thinking of making the move to Portugal and are considering buying a ruin.
If you have faced a similar situation or know anyone that might be able to help us resolve this issue please let us know in the comments.
All the best!
Jack & Hannah
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📷 / life.re.imagined
📝 www.montecalma.com
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Don't give up on the project. Talk to your local representative, which would be the Presidente da Junta de Freguesia. Have him on your side, explain the project to him and the measures you are taking to ensure you are keeping the area safe, let them know you have a lake and a clear area for helicopters to take water from in case of a wildlifire, let them know you are cleaning the area, etc. Having the Presidente da Junta de Freguesia on your side is one step closer. Also you should ask for a meeting with the Presidente da Câmara and do a presentation of your project. In more situations than none, those project papers don't even reach the mayor's desk, it's other departments that handle it, so he may be pleased to know and understand your project. Talking and exposing your project to them IS the best way to handle it, don't go the judicial way.
I think that is the best solution
Excellent advice
In Portugal, never take the word of Architects (or other professionals) or the Camara WITHOUT legal documentation to back it up. Everyone will always say "no problem" until the time when they have to sign a legal document and then suddenly it becomes an issue.
Same in Spain 🇪🇸
In UK, always involve a solicitor when one is dealing with properties. We did not do that at one point and we were seriously penalised for that reason.
In Portugal and every other country, it´s common sense...
you probably dont give a shit but does someone know of a way to get back into an instagram account??
I was dumb forgot my login password. I love any tricks you can offer me!
YES THEY ALL LIE TO MAKE A DEAL ! NO CONSCIENCE. NEVER TRUST PORTUGUESE PEOPLE, THEY ARE NOT PROFESSIONAL
Here is a great Taoist story explaining how the judgements we make as to whether something is good or bad are often only true for a fleeting moment. In the grand scheme of things there is neither good nor bad. Things just are.
Once upon a time there was a Chinese farmer whose horse ran away. That evening, all of his neighbors came around to commiserate. They said, “We are so sorry to hear your horse has run away. This is most unfortunate.” The farmer said, “Maybe.” The next day the horse came back bringing seven wild horses with it, and in the evening everybody came back and said, “Oh, isn’t that lucky. What a great turn of events. You now have eight horses!” The farmer again said, “Maybe.” The following day his son tried to break one of the horses, and while riding it, he was thrown and broke his leg. The neighbors then said, “Oh dear, that’s too bad,” and the farmer responded, “Maybe.” The next day the conscription officers came around to conscript people into the army, and they rejected his son because he had a broken leg. Again all the neighbors came around and said, “Isn’t that great!” Again, he said, “Maybe.”
I absolutely love this story!!!! Maybe. :)
One of the conscription officers said 'Since we can't draft your son into the Army, would it be OK if we used him for target practice' and the farmer said 'Maybe' . . . .
Mas os agricultores chineses não comem os cavalos todos? :-)
Being Portuguese and owning land/property in a rural area, I can say fighting a legal battle with the Municipal authority is a waste of money and - most importantly- time. Legal disputes in Portugal can take years to be resolved.
My advice would be to try to work with the câmara and adapt your project to the existing law.
A project that doesn’t require construction of ‘permanent’ structures has often less bureaucratic requirements and could be a solution (glamping, safari tents, Arabian tent/like structures are becoming very popular solutions).
Thank you city guru. Think we need to explore these options more given peoples comments
@@Life.Reimagined Hi, I was going to suggest something similar too... such as yurts, safari tents on wooden decks and the like, tiny houses on wheels... there are many options to still create something wonderful for tourists... as well as for yourselves. And I look forward to coming to see you both one day when I come and look for my own land over there too. You've done so much already, be a shame to stop now Best of luck... You both deserve it :)
Forget about yurt and glamping tents if you are not allowed to build on the land. Impossible. Others have failed in this as well. You need to have a camping license for that, and in the Algarve a new camping needs to be at least 4 or 5 stars, meaning a lot of requirements that one doesn't want when starting a glamping eco resort thing (Bar, restaurant etc). Portuguese law is not equipped for new market developments.
@@ab-ym3bf is it allowed to live in a yurt on your land if you have a ruin built before 1950?
Beat advice so far 👍
So sorry for that... As a Portuguese I am embarrassed to see how long it took, and how deceitful the whole thing seems to have been... But hang in there, I'm quite sure you'll find ways of making it somehow, turning this into a different, but still wonderful, project! Sending strength and hope.
Welcome to Portugal, land of burocrats and lawmakers. It s easier to make a law to forbid, then to create rules to help a beautiful zone evolve.
burocrats! funny yet true everywhere!
In countries like France, Italy and Spain you had to pay the contactperson from the building permits an amount 'under the table' to get the building permit in a few months. A good architect knows how to play this game. Wish you good luck.
@@paysage1617This reaction is up to ypu. I have seen it with my own eyes in France...three weeks later all the permits where signed...just oil in the burocratic engine and it speeds up...
@@paysage1617 find a good architect who has the right connections they know how to play this game
Wow! Heartbreaking for you both. Glad you’re staying positive 👍 thank you for opening up and we’re looking forward to positive news for you both 😊
I am so sorry to hear this. Keep in mind that in this moment court in Portugal is 70.000 cases behind because of Covid. Its a big chaos right now.
Very useful video as I was going to the same project. but after I saw your troubles I changed my mind and thanks for the social media and word of mouth that saved me and may others I am sure ❤️
God you guys are so amazingly positive. We were close to doing something similar but were scared about exactly what happened to you and other things.
Incredible effort abs thanks for the channel!
Good luck guys. Never lose hope!
Actually in my professional experience in Scotland with Planning Departments it is the same sort of dialogue. All pre planning applications are always "Agreed in Principle". Then when Full planning is submitted all sorts of issues arise and permission is denied. What you need is a Planning specialist. Usually these people are ex planning officers who have set up a private practice and know all the rules and how to argue your case. They are worth every penny in my experience. Maybe they have similar experts in Portugal. Good Luck!
This is heartbreaking but I'm so pleased you are going to stick with it and keep going! You would think that the Portuguese council would want to encourage projects like yours so it's a real shame they would deny you planning permission.
My partner and I bought a watermill ruin last October and will hopefully have plans drawn up and submitted by our architect by the end of the year, but it's likely it'll take so much longer. I completely understand how much you have put into your land so far (emotionally, physically and financially!) and I really hope you can get something approved in future or find a middle ground with the camara.
Love how positive you both still are - keep going! Looking forward to future videos from you both.
That is a real bummer. I appreciate you guys and learning about the process. My wife and I are interested in trying something similar and it is good to know all the issues to look out for.
Feel free to reach out if you have any questions. Good luck hope your dream come true too x
This is devastating. I am so sorry for you both. I hope at the end something positive comes out of it!
Thanks for sharing this!
Stay positive. Beeing an eco-frindly project should be a good point for your cause.
Fingers crossed!
Hi guys, I just started watching your videos and I love what you're doing with the land especially the water harvesting. Portugal desperately needs nature conscience people like you. Please don't give up on your dreams and keep looking forward while being patient. We moved to Portugal in 2003 to live a simpler life but we lost focus, grew impatient and returned to the US. Now I regret it everyday. I hope everything works out for the best and would definitely love to stay in your resort some day.
p.s. Have you tried Algarve Addicts? Maybe he can recommend someone that can help.
Well, this is a bit classic for Portugal. Câmaras & government is very frustrating as the bureaucracy is not managed by people that have a reductionary perspective of why these fire have become more & more of a problem. They actually don't really want people to go live off grid. You guys are doing great! Super happy that you are sharing this information! Much Love, Karsten 🥰🙏🏼
I wish you all the best. You both are strong, got your head screwed on right and I like how authentic you share your project with us. I don't know anything about Portugal, but I would stay away from legal cases. My experience is they cost a lot of money, a lot of energy, take heaps of time and the outcome can be questionable. There's some great advice in the comments and I keep my fingers crossed for you!
Things will work out for the best stay strong and keep positive you are doing an amazing job ❤️
only if they change there whole plan lol.
Honestly? Don’t waste your time and money on filing a case against the Câmara. Focus your amazing energy and your other resources in selling that piece of land and finding something that fits your projects. Good luck, guys, you absolutely deserve to make your targets come true. 🙏🏻
Yes sell and try to find a better more trustworthy and fun country.
Good advice
Sorry to hear. Keeping fingers crossed. Following several people with dream of developing their life in Portugal and i always considered you guys most professional. Hope all goes better for you.
Thanks Andrej. That's the kicker really - we did all our homework. Bought the books. Hired lawyers. Talked to the Camara soooo much. No one mentioned these changing fire regs along the way so we didn't know they were coming. Biggest hope with this vod is that it brings awareness to others
We are so sorry to hear about the refusal. You are still young and beautiful, you can do whatever you dream of doing. Wishing you lots of strength and joy while achieving those dreams!
Stay positive ❤️😊
Everything happens for a reason
Things will work out for you guys ☺️
Everything is rejected the first time. Ask you architects to schedule a meeting in the Câmara. Worked for me.
I think they said they did that and nothing came of it.
they like to bully people, and perhaps want money undert the table - corrupt folks
All the best for the future ✨
I was heartbroken to hear this news... I was following your project with great expectation. I think we have a lot to work as a country to simply procedures and support good practices that can regenerate the land and the community.
I really do believe it all comes down on education and changing the way we raise our children.
I have been trying to speed good information on a similar subject (tiny houses) but there is a lot to learn even as a Portuguese about local law and how to get things done. I hope you can find a solution for your problem. Legal battle with the CM can be even more frustrating I imagina. But I just don't know what is the best way unfortunately.
All the best!
aarrrrrrrrrrrh. so sorry to hear that news. Lost for words !!!! Puts you off moving there.
So sorry to hear about the câmara rejection!!! I sure hope they change their position. Stay strong!
Thank you!! 🙏
I would NOT waste any more time, money, and energy on filing a case against the Câmara ... Either, sell your property or change your plans and embark yourselves on a different business. "What seems to us as bitter trials are often blessings in disguise". Oscar Wilde
Dump some tires on the property, along with raw sewage and walk away. F-them.
@@scottanderson9656 Are you a renter? It's their land, they own it. Walk away from their investment?
@@srica7366 Wow, nothing like an idiot commenting ages later. Hey dumb f. renters have rights just as property owners do. Don't throw good money after bad and don't deal with people, entities that are obviously deceitful.
Good luck guys
Thats such a bummer guys. Stay positive, things will work out.
Cheers Vern 🤞👍💪
Hi guys , thanks for sharing your story , I am looking into buying some land in Portugal so very helpful near Prainha
Hope everything works out. Be happy :)
Good luck with that! You will need it!
Thanks!
Bless you guys
Rest of infos very true and very good, pip very important!! Forza, hello from the east algarve!
Thank you very much for sharing your story. I know you are both very dissapointed. I really wish you both a more successful project in the future. So the lesson I have learnt here is: Never put your money down if you cannot be 100% sure. It gets even worst when things get involved with the bureaucrat in Portugal. I never feel comfortable when putting down the money to buy property in Portugal, I'd rather rent and even pay a bit higher for better rent. I am so scrared of the portuguese process, so just rent and enjoy the food and weather, it makes less headache....
How frustrating! I hope it works out!
Hi there. Sorry to hear of your problems. We had allsorts of issues geting a project licence, it has been a 5 year nightmare, not unusual here unfortunately. We got there in the end and just squeaked in before the new fire laws. When we were turned down we went to the camara and I cried my eyes out, told them we could not afford to move. It seemed to affect them? We also had a very determined architect who worked with the camara lots and suggested we reaply just before xmas (and under a different name, the first was in mine - our current is in my husbands name) when everyone would be in a good mood and it worked. We also initially applied for a new build and reapplied for a rebuild, even though we knocked the ruin down and have got a new build. If you can appear to fit into just some rules it will help the camara. So maybe worth a go? If you have no luck you could rebuild the ruin (or footprint) and live on your lovely land or get a rebuild project set up to make it easier to sell? Also I know some camaras are fighting the new fire laws because they do want immigrants to move to their areas (central area), so it might change in the not too distant future. Best of luck.
From our experience : this is typical Portugal at the moment. We love most things here, but the bureaucracy is not one of them. A lot of rules and laws the last years, while they were more relaxed before. The last year showed it too.
Its more been the speed. We understand the laws. But we put a lot of time and money into getting the plans right only to be left on a desk for 18 months until they became invalid. Hopefully the digitisation of these beaurocracys will help speed up the process in future,
@@Life.Reimagined Don't get high hopes on this. Public administration here is an outdated and slow bureaucratic mess. Our services are years of light behind regarding digitalisation.
Your best hopes for this case is to find someone well connected with the câmara and perhaps he/she could speed up the process.
If don't approve your build permissions it's your problem, but if they approve something dubious like this it's their problem in case this go bad in the future, so that is why this kind of stuff rambles around without any end, nobody wants to put their neck on the line.
So sorry to hear :(
this is a great lesson for all of us who want to purchase land in Portugal...i guess the route is to record (voice and written) what is going on with the meetings, asking specific question in writting, and cross all the t's so if in the future there is an issue u will have the powder gun to defend yourself with the legal resources and fight and win.
life reimagined for real... sucks for you guys. good luck with visualising your new outcome.
sometimes it can be good to see where you at and where you want to go even when you are forced.
keep going it will work out
Be strong. Stay positive. All will be well. The darkest hour is just before dawn. Keeping my fingers crossed for you . . . . .
Thank you
Sorry to hear, remember it could always be worse. I hope you'll figure something out
Thanks Gary. If there is then we will find it! 😃 🤞
The west coast and areas north / inland have a cooler vibe for a reason. Younger people seeking a more “alternative” lifestyle have been drawn to these areas for years now, initially due to the generally lower property prices / greater choice, but increasingly because nowadays there are sufficient like minded people to have created actual communities and lifestyles. I’m referring to areas such as Aljezur, Odemira or the Santa Clara reservoir area. These areas are not nearly so densely populated and the local municipalities tend to be more welcoming and flexible about ideas like yours, as they want to encourage new businesses there.
These areas have beautiful landscapes which allow more freedom to expand. They have local farmers markets and there seems to be a really friendly, genuinely rural community vibe.
You shouldn’t think that property prices have necessarily gone past your budget. Sure, if your access to properties is only through trawling agent’s websites then you’re bound to reach that conclusion. It’s in the agent’s interest to keep prices artificially inflated.
But on the ground, talking to locals and connecting with the actual sellers directly (without intervention of agents) you will find that many people are desperate to sell. Even online you can still find land, farms and lakes in these areas for the price of an apartment in the Algarve, and that’s before you start negotiating.
www.miravillage.net/imovel/quinta-com-casa-rustica-recuperada-santiago-do-cacem-1323/?rid=17869665
www.miravillage.net/imovel/quinta-com-varias-ruinas-odemira-1320/?rid=17685806
www.marcelapropriedades.com/property-for-sale/ruin-aljezur--ref_rc228/21889
www.marcelapropriedades.com/property-for-sale/ruin-monchique--ref_rc217/21736
It is already difficult to find trustworthy architects and lawyers. Fighting the "Camera" in courts is maybe a bad idea. We are in a state "before" buying land and learning fast. That drives all parties involved really crazy. Estate agents are part of the problem as they advertise land with false statements or promises, just to please unrealistic sellers. Our advise is to learn as much as you can before getting serious and look for "trustworthy" lawyers and architects who are knowledgable and tell the real truth before lruing a client into chargeable (and at times hopeless) activities. Good luck to you guys! I could now write a book about this.
I found a nice quote related to this kind of problems: "The Portuguese legal system has the speed of a dying snail".
Hi guys, so sorry to hear about your situation.
There must be an appeal process? Look at getting advise from a planning or building professional.
That sucks guys! Stay positive, it will get better!
Yeah we will! not something we would have chosen but a great opportunity to learn about our selves! Thanks for watching
@@Life.Reimagined We got screwed as well, in the promissory contract two parts of land should be urbano but one was rustica and in a REN. So we are also in the midst of 'now what'?
So sorry to hear that! Is the other part that is urban usable? Hope you find an answer or can sell it again quickly
Maybe it's a blessing in disguise like someone said already below, with all the tourism business shutting down due to the lockdowns, and maybe it will take long for this to come to normal and if they will do some day, so take that in consideration and maybe try a different type of business, Good luck!
I have been cycling past your property for many years. It used to be more tranquil with wildlife. Now not so. I wonder how people can use words such as "eco", "sustainable" or imply they're somehow working "with" nature when we all know that just about any human intervention, let alone a tourist resort, is bound to have a negative effect on the local nature.
I am not blaming developers. We all need to earn a living and a small tourist resort is a perfectly valid way to do this. But I am pointing out the hypocrisy that these terms imply.
I notice more agents listing properties with the suggestion that they are suitable for a certain lifestyle. This is misleading.
I would advise to be more careful that the property you buy really is suitable for the business you intend to use it for. A business or simply a home: these are two very different agendas.
I’m so sorry for you guys. Portugal is an incredible country, but it has a lot of logistic problems. The burocracy is terrible problem. I hope you follow thru your dreams.
Thanks Luis. We hope so too. We love it here and truly call it home now. We were looking forward to building a business and raising a family in a few years but might be a little delayed now :)
Think of this setback as a lucky escape. The property is in an Algarve coastal municipality. This means that the planners tend to be less flexible about plans like yours as there is already so much pressure from development schemes. The area already has it’s influx of expat retirees and golfers (Morgado golf nearby) so is likely to be less amenable to your sort of venture.
so very sorry for you guys..understandable this must be a heavy blow to take, hope you won't run out of money or patience while doing the waiting game, if not just enjoy life for even the simplest of living is made misarable for us worldwide...keep the spirit up
We will!
Someone somewhere unfortunately is waiting for a large brown envelope...... it’s not just Portugal based... sorry to hear about your issue...
Wow... devastating news! Sorry to hear that. Read Sun Tzu's The Art of War. "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight." I think going head-to-head with the Camara in a legal fight is something I would leave as a very last resort and not something to pull the trigger on right now. Take some time off. Talk to more people. Think creatively. The way forward will make itself clear in due course. If in the end it doesn't happen then it was never supposed to happen. Good luck!
Great Video, thanks a lot, can you share the document that you are reading? please! do you have in it the law decrees? Regards!
From my experience with planning in the UK, it may make sense to get into the mindset of the Camara. Whilst planning looks like they have the power and u are trying to cross that line of approval, it's actually more like a dance. They are probably concerned that lives could be lost if they were to grant u permission and they are covering themselves. On the positive side it seems u can still live on your land and probably have woofers and work on infrastructure and possibly with help from the Camara's concerns help to mitigate what would happen in the event of a fire which I would say will be very likely at some point. Sorry if u have thought of all this. I just hope u have enough resources to get by until some change happens.
Good luck beautiful people.
Hi, I’m a planning consultant in the Uk, so my advice would be talk to a Portuguese planning consultant before you go down the legal route. It sounds like your PIP was pretty conclusive and should carry some weight. Sometimes architects don’t understand the planning side fully. Alternatively, are there any more temporary options you could explore: yurts, cob houses or mobile homes? Good luck. Happy to discuss further if you want.
Tim
Will semi permanent structures like geodesic tents or glamping tent work under the guidelines? May be creating fire lines and other fire mitigation techniques help in the application. Check what is allowed under the guidelines.
Sorry to hear about this, again and again here in Portugal. People sell off their land as soon as possible just to get money. Sometimes they know the right people in the right places to play along and the sellers loose. In 24 years i have heard it plenty of times. And after Covid, a lot of people are seeking land for Natural / Eco living. Foreigners have the money and locals know it. Sad.
I just started to following you, I'm sorry for this outcome. Nevertheless: I'm not sure if a ecoturism resort is a good idea for the next future. The world is changing a lot... If I had the chance, I would try to create a permaculture, etc. community, off the grid and as independent as possible from the system. I think you are doing well with your mother, and I would be open for other people to join you. At any case: Good luck!
Unfortunately the zoning rules have changed in almost all Portugal, due to new laws. For instance: I own a large property where before I could build (the previous PDM allowed to build villas); with the law that was approved about a couple years ago, the PDM has changed and now I can only have agriculture in it. And the Câmara Municipal is not to blame for the change, it was the change in the law that mandated to all PMD’s to comply with it...
Omg thats horrible. Best of luck guys !!
Thank you x
@@Life.Reimagined 💫 is there a rule/exemption possible if you install a extinguishing system ? Im looking into sprinklers on a smartroof system fed/filled by rainwater.
A few years ago there were some big fires in Portugal and it shacked with the politics. Which overall is good in terms of safety, unfortunately for you it just came in the wrong time.
If in the future you guys decide to present the project again a small advice would be to search in the village/town, who is the arquitect or the engineer from the Camara (city hall) that works in aproving projects... usually those people also have their own business making the projects and that means that when the project goes for aprovall it will be aproved, fast and easy... You may need to spend a bit more money but the result is way better :)
Hope you guys find a good solution!
We really truly understand the fire safety concerns. We are more disappointing that our plans were sat on a desk for 12 months before it was law and no one looked at it. Then after the law still took 6 months to deny ...all the while we were talking to camara and they never said any issues, just that was taking time because of changing people etc.
Regarding the fire safety though I am genuinely concerned this will have the opposite effect. If no one can build now in these areas then no one can farm. All that will happen is they will be left to go to ruin and fires will speed through country side. Needless to say less than 1km away a company just bought the land to plant a eucalyptus plantation which was allowed.
Thank you for watching and commenting. I do think we've just been unlucky really. Might be a costly mistake for us...but for now we keep trying till all hope has gone 🤞😊💸
And thanks for the comment about the planner! That's gold! If we build again I will defo remember that one!!!
Sorry to hear about your disappointment :( But as you keep your minds open perhaps some other opportunity will come out of this. All the best!
thanks for your kind words
It’s happening everywere now , I am in Spain. And they have similar restrictions . ( andulucia) but the problem in Spain and Portugal is everything is done at a snails pace ..and I have noticed how they hardly change there minds once they have made a rule .. good luck with your project. It took me over a year to rip out and remodel my place loads of paperwork etc. ..lots of hassle , but it’s done now. Also different lawyers say different things. And it cost you money if there wrong , not them. I am a elect engineer , and. Some of the stuff they came out with was ridiculous .. but I keep getting reminded it is not the uk ..
sorry to hear about that guys :(
It's also possible you are just doing things the proper way...too proper. Simply put, somebody could be blocking you and is expecting of you to offer money under the table to make things happen. I have seen that happen in Croatia...
Very disgusting but possible. Still, it has to be a legal way round
So sorry to hear this. Hopefully it’s just a bump in the road and lawyers will be able to help you through this.
Thanks 🤞
Mabey with sprinkler system around the property, to keep it moist in the dry time , mabey even in the surrounding area.
Do you mind me asking what price bracket your land was in and how much sq m to ended up with. Me and my wife are looking and we’re starting to think some of the cheaper bits of land are a bit too risky and maybe we should buy something with existing buildings or slightly larger ruins. On a second point would you know if you have to rebuild the actual ruin or can you rebuild a farmhouse of the same size offset from the existing structure? Thanks in advance for any info you can provide. Do you feel the language barrier may have hindered your progress with the camera?
Price was 90k (with pip) for 1.6ha 15min from coast. Ruin was supposed to allow up to 1000m for turismo rural but we applied for only 450m2. Ruin had to be restored and used as centerpiece...couldn't be moved. All other buildings had to connect to ruin also via raised walkways or pergolas.
After the recent new PDM I noticed a change in the classifications on land in my area as well. All hilltops are now red. Which in my case is strange since the tops are where there are no trees on my land. Seems more like an automated computer program attributing a classification. But whatever caused it, the classification stands. Your approach towards CMP however was wrong. Don't ever even give the impression they did something wrong, so telling them that they had to follow the legislation at time of submitting etc has turned them against you instantly. Don't go to court, you will never succeed and even if, after years of legal struggle, the judge finds in favor of you they will find another stick to best you with. But you will never get what you want. Best approach in my 3xperience is to ask for a meeting, say you are in shock and do not know what to do anymore and what advice can the Camara give to achieve the goal or what alternatives are there to start something as close as possible. Always ask for advice, never tell them you know better. Play the stupid foreigner, not the know better foreigner. In your case might I suggest to ask the câmara if it is an option to have the fire brigade do an assessment of the actual situation or what changes have to be made to make it possible for the Camara to give permission. Might be an idea to ask CCDR-Alg or Min of agriculture in Patacao (depends on the classification of the land) as well, but be careful with mentioning them. They are not always very fond of them at your local câmara. Good luck from someone who has had a plethora of start up problems in the Algarve as well.
"Always ask for advice, never tell them you know better. Play the stupid foreigner, not the know better foreigner. "
Excellent advice I do/did exactly the same in Paris, London, and Amsterdam, Because the truth is in other countries normally we are "stupid foreigners" about rules, regulations and the way and the why they change
Hello, the ruin was ok in regards to licencing, right? So can you extend it vertically? Build a second floor, but maintaining the same perimeter measurements?
No rebuild exactly as is with out full planning. No extra floors or extensions allowed without full planning. Also this area was limited to one story in prior info request to match locality.
Sorry that happened to you! But thank you for sharing! So we don't make the same mistake. May I ask how much the architectural plans cost (or an estimate if you don't want to share the exact amount)? And how much the submittal of the plans to the camara cost, if there is a fee? Thanks!!
I was born and raised in Portugal and very proud of it, but at the age of 25 I left my country and came to Canada, just because of all the Bullsh** our portuguese government put us thru. I been living here for the last 30yrs, still love Portugal but I don't even think about going back to retire. I visit every 2 or 3 years. after moving here I had to get some portuguese documents and visited our embassy in Toronto and it was run in totally and utter chaos, and that was the last experience I had with Portuguese bureaucracy. Best wishes.
Good to know
Welcome to Portugal there not getting another euro from me no land in Portugal for me what a load of hassle
do the Pip before you buy properties to rebuild or if you have plans to present in the municipal chamber
Yup, that’s what we did. Still no guarantee though apparently 🥴
Sorry to hear about this. Have you guys got any updates on the situation?
Not really, we are still discussing with the Camara, had another million things we had to do in order to get the permission. Things take forever and the rules constantly change so it feels like a neverending story and a game that can’t be won. But we are still fighting! 💪🏻
This is why it's super important to hire a Portuguese attorney to help you with legalities and documentation. I bought two properties in Portugal, and I'm super pleased I had an attorney to make sure everything was in place legally before I made my purchases.
We had a lawyer.
It seems that the câmara took way too much time to react to your submitted plan. Some information is missing to analyse your case properly but depending if it was a PIP or a license they had around 30 days to answer. At least to say if something was not adequate.
Beware the sunk cost trap. Sorry to hear about what has happened to you.
Yes ... It's defo hard when your emotionally invested
Tipical ... you have a lot of good and useful info on the comments to help out; explore all options before going to the courts ... it's life draining ... in the meantime, when confinement ends ... why don't you head north and come visit us at Quinta da Cancela in Guimarães? ... nothing better than looking at petty bureaucracy through the bottom of an empty rosé bottle :) !!! Cheers !!! Keep at it !!
That sounds like a plan! 🥂
Rebuild what you have and later make extensions time to time. Very common here in my country when we have camaras rules to stop new construction and the government always changes rules in the end.
Yeah people keep saying this to us but it’s too risky. We don’t want to base a business on something that doesn’t have a permit 😬
Hi guys , sorry to hear about the bad news . Have you tried arranging a meeting with the camara ,yourselves and your architects ?
Hi , may I know how much you bought the land ?
Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt. I wish you well, don’t give up. Greetings from Germany 🇩🇪
get a permit for swimming pool and after that you can build but not an permanent build (like shed houses)
Did you check if a camper or something comparable is an option for you?
Can you fix the old house to rent .while yous plant out and develop gardens then reappply in the future
Talk to the president...Portugal is full of love & possibilities...Best community in Europa. ..connecting & doing the Best for the Planet. ..
Hey, don’t let a camara put you off, they can be highly incompetent. You are building something very positive and sustainable, they should be paying you. Get a good lawyer, and I mean a truly genuine good one, not just someone that will suck money out of you, be aware of that. You will succeed never ever give up, and stick to your plan A, plan B is not an option. You are both great 😊
Thank you. Any tips on finding these good lawyers? Seriously asking as we are not sure what to look for or who to trust. Seems it's in there best interests to say we have a case
@@Life.Reimagined try the contacts already shared around here, speak with people who’ve had similar problems in the area of Portimão as they might recommend a lawyer that has helped them. Good luck x
Doesn't sound like someone who has experience in Portugal. The last thing you want to do is go to court against the one organisation that is making the decisions. Incompetent or not. From what I hear this has absolutely nothing to do with incompetence. You may have other experience, but in my experience this is the worst advice given.
That is so unfair! Good luck guys!!!! Certainly poor judgement on the Camera's behalf
I was involved in a project in Portugal 20 years ago. The footprint rule was a major issue with gaining planning approval.
Yes. People need to be careful. However it's not always this strict and when we bought the land and submitted our approval it was because our ruin had preplanning to extend to 300m or 1000 for rural tourism. However after 2 years of the plan sitting on a desk this rule changed and left us where we are at today.
Hey guys did you solve the issues with the requirements needed for you project?
Really sad for you guys on this decision by the town hall. You really got caught between the inefficiency of the Portuguese public services and the constant changes to laws, two of the bigger drawbacks both to privates and companies in this country.
Really hope you find your path with less resistance. Best of luck.