Episode 26: Primaris, and how they RUINED the Astartes
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
- Here we go. Strap yourselves in and grab a cuppa or whatever you drink while you hobby (hopefully not paintwater) for this 2 hour EPIC.
With special guest Karl we discuss ALL the reasons why we don't like the Primaris Marines and why we think they RUINED the Adeptus Astartes and the Lore in general in Warhammer 40k.
Music: "Risk" by Kolomna Studios
The lore went wrong when they reconnected the results of the Eye of Terror world wide Campaign. The Imperials held onto control of the jump points (battlefleet gothic) but lost control of several key planets and lost a whole sector to the Orks due to lack of co-ordination and coperation of the Imperial players. They should have never brought back any of the Primarcs in my opinion and killing of the lost tech Grimdark setting by introducing Primaris Marines pretty much killed the setting, along with the shattering of the time line (see Vigilus Defiant). The lore is literally pointless now, I see no point in investing any effort in learning lore that is constantly chopped and changed as much as the rules these days.
That was peak 40k. the online campaigns were brilliant. uploading the results online and watching sectors change hands. When was that? 2004/5?
@@daveeol1987 yeah about then mate. It was a greak idea, for the fanbase to be able effect the lore and outcome of the setting. Pitty GW were not happy with the outcome and froze the time line for years before retcon the setting.
I remember that! Shameful and very very obvious.
The Rick Priestley era of creatives is nearly all gone. Only a couple folks left from the 80s-00s and a couple are in the Exec and behind this. Most of the ones on our side of the fence have gone to Specialist.
What’s specialist?
@@Jakey44 Specialist Games is the division of the Studio that creates anything outside the scope of the 40K/AOS universes to include Horus Heresy, Necromunda, The Old World etc…
@@judgecohen1373 Oh! That is very interesting as someone who is trying to get into Horus Heresy! What do you think the effect will be on HH? Thank you for the claification!
@@Jakey44 For Heresy? Not sure. Since the social media rep claimed “the Female Custodes have always existed”, they will need to retcon the “history” of the Heresy to accommodate this. I suspect that will not go well. They may well choose to ignore this current issue and continue on without comment. At the end of the day, the way femstodes were introduced was pandering rather than any kind of respect as for 100s of thousands of pages of fiction and over 10,000 years of in-game lore they have never done anything worth mentioning or notice before the 10th ed Codex.
Yep, as matt says, specialist games is pretty much the only thing keeping us around. The old guard!!
I’m so glad that you guys speak about this as opposed to other channels who keep their mouth shut and act like it didn’t happen so that they don’t lose their subscribers. Take a stand one way or the other. Thank you for doing this video.
We lost a couple of subs as this went up. No matter. We are old and grumpy and we speak our mind. Always will.
At least you had some good discourse on it, i had to unsub all the preachy channels like discourse minis, bricky and hellstorm who just spew bad faith arguments and logical fallacies mixed in with plentiful denigration of fans who arent happy, as if there is only one acceptable viewpoint and that viewpoint being their’s
Also to add, this has gained you a sub from this old fogie in a young body
In the Cawl book it does mention that Cawl had integrated the knowledge and persona of the guy who helped Big E develop the Space Marines black carapace. The Primaris Marines also do Inception-like dream combat survival training where they "fight" hordes of enemies until they are defeated/killed in the dream. Once they fail, the simulation starts over. I think that's from the first indomitus crusade book
To me, that just feels like plot contrivances. They needed their new Primaris to be elite veterans from the start, so they made up a poorly thought out (IMO) excuse for it.
@@adrianscott4288 it really is lol
Yeah that sounds like weak writing tbh.
Oh boy, i can't wait to listen to this. Primaris are easily my least favourite thing about 40k lore right now.
Hope it satisfies. Was a nice long ranty ramble like Karl says.
I dislike Dan Abnett's writing style and i dislike what he's done to nearly 40 years worth of established lore. As far as I'm concerned, the Horus heresy ended the way it used to with sanguinius making the crack in Horus's armour that the emperor could exploit and the emps blasting horus's soul to oblivion. I swear to god if they bring back Horus but not sanguinius i will be super pissed off
Oh they'll bring both back... But make them gay for each other or someshit.
@@DnBGolfshhhhh they’re gonna see this and make it happen
It will be ADB who will make them gay, knowing his massive daddy issues and the fact that he's been dying to make at least one of Primarchs gay for some time.
I would say more, but Susan currently has me by balls on this platform!
See, nothing wrong with that. That was great. Why fix what wasn't broken?!
I lost interest in 40k once it went from a setting to a narrative which has ultimately become driven by marketing and FOMO. I personally blame the Black Library writers of the garbage lore we have these days. GW has gone from a games company to a miniatures company to an editions company where they invalidate your old stuff to get you to buy the new ones every three years.
I used to love the black library books. Not for a while now though. The quality has absolutely dropped.
Hearing about the different marks of power armour reminded me of the fun our group had with deathwatch.
For anyone who hasn't come across it the different marks had different bonuses and penalties, older marks being revered relics but harder to repair, some giving bonuses to strength that sort of thing, and to an extent you could mix and match.
That sounds like a lot of fun. Shame they look destined to be folded into an Imperium codex.
The problem with "don't put girls in your armies" is that they're going to slap Bustodes on every sprue. So you'll run the girls, or you'll buy more plastic (or 3d print :D )
Honestly i dunno, it's peak laziness by GW so ATM you can just say they are all dudes.
I was a fantasy collector until I made that 3rd edition Marine kit. The ability to mix and match parts from that kit, the commander, the company command squad, devastators, assault marines, sternguard, vanguard and the upgrade kits was so enjoyable for someone who loves building kits.
The primaris models, while they look good from a functional view, are boring to build. It's not a creative experience its a puzzle to solve.
I agree with the quote where they were warrior monks and now tacticool specialists for a Call of Duty generation. They took the feel of what I loved about Marines, the dark brooding monastic warriors, and made boring.
Also the idea of taking a flexible marine and making them specialists was a middle finger to the play style of Eldar where aspect warriors have a set role to accomplish on a battlefield, but the Space Marines were a Jack of all trades, masters of none, take on all comers. Same with floaty tanks.
I've accepted it as part of the game, not much choice, but my leanings has turned to Chaos Space Marines, Eldar and other factions that for now hold to some of their older theme and style. I also wouldn't begrudge anyone their preferences, I just miss what the lore held for Marines.
Great video and very interesting discussion, keep up the good work.
Thank you for the kind words. We have a retrospective series coming soon I'm excited about, starting with Rogue Trader!
8th Ed Death Guard were enough for me to nope straight out of 40K. Jayce & The Wheeled Warriors were a huge red flag.
The only thing of GW's that keeps me invested is Necromunda, and the community is tight enough that it will keep the game going long after Specialist Games have put it out to pasture. Just like they did with Blood Bowl. The Necromunda books are arguably the closest we have to black books these days.
Its all gone downhill since they moved over from physical sculpting to 3D modelling. Space Wolf upgrade kits with banana fur and upside down bolters anyone? They're a miniatures company first but you can increasingly see stuff that has been designed by focus groups (as well as assets that have been copied and pasted from previous sculpts). The Primaris range is the most egregious example. Now you have the added bonus that the lore is built around the miniatures too, so they can shoehorn in any old shite to make it fit (ie Cawl).
I think GW want to be at the stage where they can just farm out their IP to the highest bidder. Who needs to invest millions in infrastructure and wages when you can just sell the license to a Chinese mobile game developer or movie studio?
My entire problem with primarus marines is the fact they should’ve just been an armour and equipment upgrade for the imperium and better space marines would’ve been a chaos upgrade/special unit similar to WE “inducti” engineered from fabulous for chaos (considering he has been alive since the great Crusade, and has multiple genetic data from the Primarks, AND had special tutoring from the dark Elder FFS).
This is gonna be spicy, and as a massive fan of most of the primaris range I am here for it
I think this one has a bit less swearing than usual for us but there will be spice. The spice must flow.
Primaris was the one thing that made me realize im just a cash cow to GW, all the work i put into painting my BA army just for it to be deemed unusable really angered me
Just totally ruined space marines for us, and for many many others. We feel your rage.
Thoroughly enjoyed having Karl on for this one TBH, even if he does have far, far too many dreadnoughts...
Was good fun, we will do it again sometime if we can eke another 2 hours out of him
The sisters of silence wears gold
Absolutely do. They're on multiple HH covers
As ever "advancing the story" turns out to be the worst decision for the long-term health of the game that GW has ever made.
Really is where it all started going wrong.
Hey great episode! I had a small WH40k collection as a kid, got back into it as an adult during covid (with Primaris Space Marines...) and came to many of the same conclusions you've outlined. I can't stand the new lore. And damn it I miss Mk7 helmets more than anything. I can barely build a firstborn Marine army this edition, I reckon that option will all but disappear by 11th.
BTW another topic I think would be really interesting: how competitive gaming and the "e-sports"-ification of WH40k has affected the hobby. My local group is pretty awful with the meta chasing, and now with points updates every 3 months people just jump on the newest hotness. I found myself diving into oldhammer 40k batreps these past weeks and find the games and narratives quite enticing. Contrast that with modern streams of 40k tournaments, and it seems like the players would be happy enough using checker and chess pieces because they don't really care. I get it's a completely different gaming mentality, but it certainly seems to be causing a split in the hobby.
Absolutely that is something ill be covering at some point, i think it has been a massive detriment to the 'hobby' even if it works for GW and their aim to make it an e-sport. We are doing an old edition retrospective soon starting with Rogue Trader :)
Grump it! I actually like the Primaris but I want them to delve further into them going wrong and how chapters like the Flesh Tearers still resist them to an extent.
Cawl turns out to be an Arch Heretex and flips a switch. all the Primaris go Loco and have to be wiped out.
It's what i would do lol.
@@GrumpyGrognardGaming Him and the Genefather are in a contest to build a better Frankenstein. Its my bet female facing Chaos Primaris will start with Bile and spread elsewhere.
Don't threaten me with a good time..@@GrumpyGrognardGaming
Trench Crusade is coming. Zeo Genesis is coming. Heavy Gear exists. Konflikt 47 exists. Historicals exist. Lots of places to go. Also Warmaster/LI exist.
Zero Genesis eh? Not heard of that one. I'll have a look
@@GrumpyGrognardGaming Zeo not Zero. Andy Chambers and Gav Thorpe doing the rules and writing. Another really interesting background from GW oldies with a sci-fi bent.
@@judgecohen1373 damn autocorrect lol. Sounds like a good excuse to have another word with Andy!
@@GrumpyGrognardGaming Yep. Saw it first hand at the NOVA Open 23. A cross between Gundam/NGE/Babylon 5/40K and a bunch more. Looks really fun and interesting.
Games workshop and 40k are dead. But our hobby is not, here's how:
Get your rules from OPR's Grimdark Future
Get a 3d printer and make your own minis
Get your paints and brushes from army painter (or your prefered non-GW supplier)
Ignore all lore from 7th edition onwards
Enjoy your hobby 👍
I did a vid on OPR. looks like a good alternative
"You never said you were gonna say 'BLACK RAGE', I nearly pissed myself"
Do we need to apply trigger warnings to the start like Disney? :p
Judiciar hour glass, I think is based on the effect from the ultramarine movie where the chaplain freezes the attacking chaos marines, the most offensive thing about primaris is for years they stated that each suit of power armour and all the wargear was an irreplaceable relic, now it's obsolete and being replaced
Yep so lazy and feels like it damages the venerating of relics aspect that made Warhammer stand out
Question GW's integrity? When did they get some of that?
This might a bit if a cope but I feel GW always intended Primaris to be a temporary bridge to not invalidate old models next to true-scale marines. They're already quietly retconning Primaris out of the lore by no longer making a distinction between Primaris and Firstborn. At the same time parts from old armour marks are reintroduced into the range. Eventually it will be as if Primaris were never a thing.
I won't miss primaris if they disappear. Not holding my breath though.
I think GW already enabled this with “Crossing the Rubicon”, the surgical operation to convert Firstborn volunteers to Primaris. Supposed to be a dangerous procedure with a high failure rate but GW aren’t going to sell you a box of dead soldiers.
I think there was some hope that maybe the Firstborn would have some advantage e.g. years of combat experience vs clones but they can just be upgraded to Primaris.
I liked that in 40K humanity used to suffer severe technological limitations on equipment, lost knowledge, struggled to survive in a grim dark age. Now they can essentially 3D print super space marines with better equipment and resurrect heroes at will.
A terrible decision narratively but very profitable!
I think boycotts CAN work. Bud light was boycotted to the extent that Vanguard and Blackrock divested
It is a VASTLY different product though. You can get crappy light beer from a few places, only GW do space marines. We'll see. I don't think they are doing well ATM.
If the people who call half the population bigots want it then I oppose it.
No debate, no discussion, no nuance just you don't agree with me completely therefore you are the enemy. Even if you agree with 90% of what I say that's not enough ands therefore you are a bad person
It's sad.
Its best to make your own rules for TT, use the core as basis and add or remove rules and equipment as you want.
Lots of people play WH40K with their own lore and rules. They dont give a flying fk what GW says or does. Create your own games, its in you power and freedom to do so.
40k is and has always been a framework. I was reminded of that the other day when me and Matt revisited Rogue Trader
Introduction of primaris pushed me out of the hobby
I will say this about heresy, if your opponent is fine with it you could ask to use the 7th edition codex of a xenos army, just as long as both sides agree to use the basic reactions and not any available advanced reactions
the irony is the new horus heresy stuff has been upscailed to be primaris sized, i dont like them the groups i wanted to play with wouldnt even let me use my firstborn army with them, i dont like beakies or wierd wepons, the newer and older 40k stuff looks better to me more streamlined, ill always use primaris and firstborn together in my armies.
I made my 10th ed small army (1000pts) exclusively out of firstborn but with primaris loadouts, ie hellblasters are tac squad marines with plasma guns and eliminators are the old sniper scouts in teams of 3. Just rebased things and changed some weapons and i have no primaris in the force but still have a cool army
I stopped playing 40K around the time of the Primarus. I didn't like that they were progressing a story and not keeping 40K a setting. I also didn't like how Primarus are just "Bigger Stronger" marines. When I was 13, you could of sold me action figures who were the same but bigger and stronger than my current ones. As an adult, I just see it as a way to swindle me out of my money
Aggressors look like teletubbies?!? I am offended by that statement. There is something they look like, and that's Firebats in Starcraft. I kid, of course, but I personally love the design of the Aggressors.
Never saw the teletubbies thing really, tubby though for sure. They aren't the worst by any means bit I'm still not a big fan.
What a bunch of Salty old Sods! I say that with much love 💙because I feel the same way being a wargaming veteran of simlar vintage and a Warhammer 40K fan / collector / player since 3rd Edition. I did a hard stop at 7th Edition myself and didn't buy into the whole Primaris bollocks. Switched over just after that to Mantic games and been playing and enjoying their Sci-Fi Warpath universe ever since both skirmish "Deadzone" and army 'Firefight".
I'm hoping to do a Where Next to Conquer on the Mantic offerings very soon :)
@@GrumpyGrognardGaming I will look foward to that, cheers UM40
39:00 they probably got the idea from the ultramarine movie with the chaplains crozius mace having a slowing time ability (which is not canon)…..
Maybe instead of giving him an hourglass, they could’ve given him something useful like a laz pistol. Lmao
I concur, fucking hate primaris with a passion.
I reckon a GOOD proportion of the consumer base does.
Karl walking into the Warhammer store is like the Parks and Rec clip:
th-cam.com/video/IEhHEOIYgMY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=iYHaLWUzIc7U_PY0
Hahaha. Pretty much. Karl doesn't mince words. That's why we like him.
So a few things...
- i think this left-right "culture war" over 40k is only a thing because the participants on both sides don't understand what satire is. Of course this is partly GWs fault because they don't seem to remember that 40k is supposed to be satire either...
- my favourite edition was 5th. Back when the rules were still enjoyable and customising your army was still a thing, but they hadn't started screwing things up with flyers and superheavies in the core rules.
- 100% agree on everything you said about Primaris. Their introduction was the precise point at which i lost interest in 40k lore and especially space marines. They took a huge dump over almost everything that made space marines interesting, and turned them into unironic action heroes with paper- thin depth.
Problem is, the culture war isn’t restricted to 40k and its not to do with a lack of understanding satire
@colonelturmeric558 your right in that misunderstanding satire isn't the only reason. But it does pop up regularly as a contributing factor. For instance some on the right unironically love 40k for mirroring some of their conservative ideals. But then some on the left hate 40k because they don't understand that people can like something without identifying with all the fascism.
In any case, I'd argue that the culture war is completely Imaginary. There's no plot to indoctrinate everyone by adding liberal values to everything. It's just creators making art/shows/etc that reflect their values, and companies cynically promoting those same values because their market research tells them it might boost sales.
I remember the old days when we would just slag off each others chapter choices and then go out for a drink afterwards. No capacity for debate or nuance now.
I love the Primaris but I also love listening to people talk about 40k. Not a fan of the female Custodes mainly because of how they did it.
I could play 5th edition for the rest of my life 😢
That's good, keep it and cherish it. I loved second bit it's a bit impractical sometimes.
Can I just touch on the 'no girls allowed' point that you keep repeating, insinuating that it's just sweaty guys who don't want women in the hobby?
40k is science fiction, even with its "magic in space" origin it does rely a lot on reality (ceramic exoskeletal armour and scaled up equipment), where fantasy sort of ignores the limitations of it.
The Custodes or custodians or however you'd like, are the peak of human physicality, they are CQC masters, running through hordes of enemies, even marines, like whirlwinds and reaping everyone with their weapons. Does that sound like women to you?
Men aren't stronger just because they're typically bigger, they're stronger due to skeletal structure, muscle distribution, fiber/ligaments and muscle mass. In order to be just as strong, a woman would have to have a fundamentally different body. No matter how much you gene-enhance a woman, you still get a less-than result.
Let's say you explain it away, that you somehow have feminine custodes with feminine bodies who are just as strong, that would require that their muscles are so different that they're just stronger per mass, like Eldar are, for example, right? You definitely COULD make that true, but then.... why wouldn't you just make male custodes that much stronger instead? You see where I'm going?
Men and women are different and acknowledging that is not a bad thing, it doesn't single people out as horrific sexists who hate women and think they shouldn't be allowed.
Also, by not adding them as women, you maintain the integrity, congruity and suspension of disbelief. Sure, there are inconsistencies in 40k, but that doesn't mean that allowing more of it is in any way excused!
Am I making sense or do you think this is all just rooted in a dislike of women?
I would say it's rooted in a dislike of women, at least those calling for female Space Marines, as I can't think of anything more horrific to become.
I will repeat the argument I have made elsewhere: By having female Custdudes, who according to nu-(((lore))), no less, take command of guard regiments (sometimes by force), replace Admirals of entire navel fleets, undertake assassinations undermining the actual assassins in-universe, interrogate Inquisitors and let traitors run free (actually happened in WD story I have had the misfortune of reading!), then replace said Inquisitors.
So what would be the point of having all those characters (many of which would be female, augmented to varying degrees), if a female custode can do all their jobs, but better? It's female erasure, that's without mentioning the SoS and SoB.
What you say TOTALLY makes sense. I mean let's face it in this universe women would be breeders and little more, pumping out more and more fodder for the imperial meat grinder.
But. That shit just won't fly now. That's the problem, the setting that GW have created is not compatible with modern ideals and rather than just embracing it they are desperately trying to alter the setting to make it more palatable and accommodating.
@@GrumpyGrognardGaming I think 40k did great compromises. Sisters of Battle make sense, they have their power armour to make up for their physical disadvantages and they work as moral support for other people, being equal measure heretic hunters and supports of faith (though they're meant to be internal clean-up, not on the front lines against aliens alongside marines, that was a really bad trailer). Everyone's favourite Lotara Sarrin is a great example of a woman who doesn't need to be a front line soldier to be respectable, made all the better because she's about to soil her pants every time she has to deal with the World Eaters.
For every dozen men in the field you need administration in the Imperium and there is plenty of space for women filling those roles, they don't just have to be breeders, but it has to make some measure of sense and where the sisters do, along with their clever 'origin' (tacked on later, but whatever) female custodes just don't, in any way, it's empty pandering.
@@Smilomaniac yep I agree. Ill thought out retcon done for the wrong reasons that actually diminishes the SOS which at 35 quid for 5 no bugger is taking anyway.
Yeah, what were the names of the rituals they used to do? The wording made it sound like "Hey, sorry I was harsh on you, machine, I was trying to keep us alive."
Appeasement, I think it was
Something like that. The Machine spirit had to be calmed down regularly and soothing ungents and oils applied by Techpriests to actually make things work.
"Bless your weapons, give praise to your armor, look to the emperor."
That sort of thing?
Is "incestor" a cool enough name, gw??
Don't give them ideas!
41:00 kind of annoyed they didn’t make a Sam turret for the melee warsuit using the “blackbox” TF2 rocket launcher from the desolators (just the square rocket launcher, not the belt fed grenade launcher attached) instead of that ridiculously huge roof turret with gun barrels longer then it’s arms.
The Tzeentchstodes are mid at best
How many female imperial guard kits ? 0
Female bits on the cadians, that is all.
I enjoy Star Trek Discovery. :D
Someone has to! I have a soft spot for lower decks tbh. :)
@@GrumpyGrognardGaming I have not watched Lower Decks. Just the one crossover episode with Strange New Worlds.
@@XHobbiesPrime it starts rough but there is actually some good character work in there and some deep cut references. It feels like it was written by someone who likes Trek. I've only seen first two seasons mind you.
@@GrumpyGrognardGaming I have seen a lot of people in Star Trek groups talk about how much they really love Lower Decks. They also seem to love The Orville so I'm not sure if they are to be trusted.
Croc marines are fucking funny
Hilarious, i just never wanted my space marines to be hilarious is the problem.
@@GrumpyGrognardGaming very reasonable lol
The whole thing is just bad comedy now tbh