Ian - "A fan might spend hours painting whilst listening to idiots to me" Me, looking up from the model I'm painting at 11pm at night.: Well that seems an unnecessary callout...
@@ObjectiveAnalysis in retrospective, yes. but during 3rd and 4th edition there were also the usual complaints about the state of the game. 5th and 6th edition were just trash.
Gamers want to learn new rules- but don't want to have to learn new rules.. They want OP stuff nerfed - but don't want to have to update their composition of gaming pieces to stay competitive. They want there to be constant stream of cool new stuff to buy - but don't want their old stuff being victim of planned obsolescence.
Many hobbies can become that. I played American Football for a loooong time here in the UK and plenty of my teammates prioritised running around in funny shoulder pads far above their jobs and families, let alone other hobbies. That is surely why some of them were soooo much better than me too, but it isn't like they were aiming for the NFL! My wife does Roller Derby and many are the same there. Every friendship or romance is within that community, every decision in the rest of their life revolves around it. It doesn't seem healthy to me.
I remember taking business ethics in collage. The first day of class, the professor stood up in front of the class and said matter of factly, "In the modern business world, there is no such thing as ethics in business. That is not to say there shouldn't be, just that there isn't. They are more concerned about what is legal than what is ethical. That should never be the case. An ethical man does twice what is expected of them and only half of what is allowed. If you focus on what you are allowed to do then you can never call yourself an ethical person. It is my hope in this class to make ethical people. It is your job to create ethical business." That click bait exists is not the issue. The issue is that when someone gets called out on it, their instant response is "I'm not violating the terms of service." Just because you are following the rules doesn't make you a righteous person. That is literally the least we expect of you. Ian, I find you to be at least a conscientious man and have given us a great deal of your time to explain lore, talk about rules, paint little miniatures with your friends, and review some of the most prolific branded literature on the planet. I can also say with a bit of certainty that you at least try to be an honest and ethical man given what little we see on these videos. I truly wish that there were more like you and even if everyone conducted themselves like you do I would still wish for more. Is the world ethical? Not really. It is up to us to hold ourselves to higher standards and at times shame the bad actors in our world into being better themselves. Not by calling them out, but by just shaking our heads and moving on.
I completely agree but, why that ethic should not be asked also about GW? There are many business that build their reputation/position on niche market and, to keep the infinite grow, then they change their product in order to cater a wider audience. This is 101 business strategy. When you like the initial product and it stops being what it was just for more profits on a public traded company, then you complain about it.
@@makinote You can not control others, only yourself. Thereforeyou should always praise those who do right and expect nothing from it and just accept that not everyone will be ethical. vote with your wallet and look for that which you want.
@@dylanblack3635 I feel like this is an easy stance to take if you have no skin in the game, but how do you handle a situation where you've spent quite a lot of money and no small amount of time preparing yourself via building, painting and reading to engage with a particular hobby only for the powers that be who have the heaviest impact on that space to negatively impact your experience? This isn't like video games where one can pick up and put down a title with very little material cost, but there is a very real material cost to this hobby in particular.
@@ImrahilToChaos Well, seeing as I have in my life spent roughly several thousand dollars at this point on Roleplaying game books and related merchandise, I would say that one option is to play your game for enjoyment. You control your gaming experience. You have your rules and the rules you and your friends agree to play. You are not a slave to the game, and the second you feel that you are a slave to the game then your hobby has moved into the point of addiction. You have choices. Do not let others decide for you.
@@dylanblack3635 The Warhammer hobby and gameplay space is a little bit larger than just me - though in this case your advice being angled towards me specifically isn't required, as I don't play any of these games in a manner that would require this advice. More, there are a lot of people out there who do not exist in this charmed space of life in which these corporate decisions do not affect people who are playing the games. What if someone's only space to play games in is an LGS where the adopted rules are the latest ones? This isn't even a hypothetical - this sort of thing happens all the time with less reasonable issues, never mind what's happening with AoS right now. The spaces that move to the beat of the corporate drum because that's the easiest way to keep everyone on the same page are arguably the most common ones for semi-dedicated players to exist in and enjoy the hobby, especially outside of kitchen table spaces - so what do these people do? How else does one respond when following your advice? Move to another game entirely? This isn't the sunk cost fallacy, there's quite literally money going to waste in that situation. Why shouldn't criticism of the lack of ethics employed by the corporation who changed things for the worse be an acceptable response?
There is something amazingly cathartic abut someone finally being able to put what ive been trying to figure out why the fandom is so utterly exhausting into words...and then shout it out loud where they can hear it and im not the one doing it. Bravely done, Ian.
I despise majork*nt so I'd definitely pay to see that, I get why wes might not be for everyone but he's said that himself and just seems like a nice lad just enjoying the hobby.
A very good point some people just don't want to understand. The way the primaris were introduced helped me realize that the lore, as cool as it is, is also a marketing tool. If GW sees enough profit in making say female SMs, they will make female marines possible in the lore before selling new models, even if it states the opposite now. Because space magic, or the emperor's will or whatever. That's just the way it is
It's why I love this channel. Ian obviously a dedicated fan who loves it, but he's capable of having perspective. The lore isn't the Ten Commandments, it's stuff a vast collection of writers have made up, with its primary goal to get you to BUY MORE FIGURINES. This stuff ain't the 95 Theses, the Horus Heresy didn't truly become a THING until, what, a decade and a half into the game's existence? Deep breath everyone! We're playing a game. A very expensive, time consuming game that we love.
That Discourse Miniatures is the worst one for Click/RageBait and misinformation....EVERY Video is will contain words such as "killing" "Crisis" "TOXIC" "Scam"...Every video has to do with a scandal or some crisis or trouble...ive never seen her do an actual video on the gaming/painting or lore side just all pure rubbish.
Exceptional work as the voice of reason talking about both the game as an actual game, and all the concerns that go with the realities of manufacturing etc, and the place of Warhammer and community within the modern world. Though the lack of latex catsuit on a spaceship is disappointing Ian, but preceded by the perfect summary of "I can't imagine feeling anything other than a slight annoyance at it, it's not important" is just *chef's kiss*
I think one of the reasons for the particularly over the top response of the Warhammer community that you haven't touched on is the sheer cost of the hobby. If I pay £20 for a videogame on Steam and the developers stop patching it after a couple of years thats no big deal. If I spend £500 on a set of models plus hundreds of hours of time building and painting them, I think it's natural to feel more strongly about a change to the level of support they receive from the manufacturer. This is magnified for younger people with both a less mature attitude and less disposable income. It's further magnified by the way the hobby is sold. I often hear some variant of 'models first' but that isn't the impression a new hobbyist gets. They sometimes view it as a game first that's accessed through the medium of hobbying and I don't think GW do much to dispel that. Rules and even whole systems, particularly 40k, are written as if competitive play with its ever evolving meta is the intended way to experience the game. Personally, I don't see it that way but that's because I'm an old fart - I remember blast templates and never getting balance updates. Returning to the hobby after a long absence, I was surprised by how tournament play has become so dominant and I think it's a key element of why the fan base can be so toxic. If your hobby is playing in tournaments, range updates and lore changes will feel like a crude tax and sometimes it's hard to argue that isn't the case - I'm talking to you, desolation squads. Just my two pence really, I liked the video a lot and thought I'd chuck in this additional point just to see if it rings true with anyone else.
Completely agree, and I would feel the same if I primarily played in tournaments but luckily I prefer to play with a few friends (so we can play various editions and Legends and alter rules slightly, etc).
I remember a while back I was getting SOOOO sick of the phrase "a slap in the face", as any nerdy fandom I enjoyed enough to join discussions on constantly had people saying that this thing that happened is a "slap in the face" and this update was a "slap in the face" and the company that owns the franchise not doing X or Y is a "slap in the face." It was just utterly exhausting. This video reminded me why I started dropping out of places like that, the sense of entitlement and constant soap box outrage just sucks the fun out of it for me.
One important thing to remember is that GW was also moving towards rebranding things with more copyrightable names, with things like Eldar becoming Aeldari, Imperial Guard becoming Astra Militarum and the like. This can probably be traced back to the Chapterhouse Studios lawsuit and how generic names like Tactical Marines, Imperial Guard and Eldar can't be enforced in court.
I remember how they pulled up a long list into court and were told they could not copyright "assassin". They preserved the most important bits at least.
Great video and a lot to think about. One related thing I'd add is the way companies co-opt and encourage that identity. Companies blur the line (as do celebrities) between purveyor and consumer to encourage sales, yet are surprised when 'The Fandom' acts with more entitlement than the relationship would strictly warrant. Very classical Rome and beware of unleashing the mob.
Ian. This is by far, the most erudite explanation of what has been going on with fan's and settings for the last 10-15 years. The huge uptick in the push to turn fan, back into the full word, Fanatic.
@@maxhall5260 LOL. if you have teachers reaching for a dictionary or thesaurus, you you have done your job for the day. try slipping one of these into your essays too en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang
"You're encouraged to ideologically cosplay the faction you choose" I am a Blood Raven player and I have to make it very clear I have paid for or been gifted everything I own... Just sometimes, the other party isn't entirely aware they've gifted it to me
I hate it when "the same 20 guys turn up to every plot point" and that's one reason I like Warhammer so much compared to lots of other sci fi and fantasy franchises. I guess 40k does it some times, but its proliferation of random characters who show up for a novel and then die half way through is a real strength of the setting.
The real heroes are a coin-clipper, a fourth daughter noble, a fisherman, a student and a bandit fighting mutants in the muck trying to pull their stagecoach over. Everything else is just a backstory to why we are beating these mutants. Alternatively, Mad Mike the ganger plugging some fool with an autogun underneath the stairs up to a pub.
This video is really good and the whole "you should treat content creators as the small business that they are" is just flawless and very honest. I do have to play the devil's advocate a little though, because I think that even though the whole analysis of the nerd rage causes is spot on (and I do expect the costume changes and the latex Abigail Thorn style in your next opinion piece) it dramatically underestimates the economic aspect of it. I for example am simply too poor to play 40k right now, the hobby costs a shitload of money for a university student that lives of small jobs and (ironically) Warhammer paining commissions. When I do have time to paint something for myself I take it as a work of art because I simply don't have the money to get in the whole "buy-paint-play-repeat" mindset that leader-company-in-the-field gamesworkshop pushes so hard so every piece I make is something that costed me a large percentage of my spending money and lots of time that I could have spent full on fine wine and oyster like I guess non-warhammer players do in their free time. My point is that such a big economic investment has people nervous by itself and even if warhammer has a very conservative (in every sense of the word sadly) odience it is completely understandable to be more than slightly bothered when you see the models that you've put so much time and effort in being discontinued and progressively next to impossible to play if you want to continue to participate in the community as is.
@@OutlawScreamingJesus I mean, the whole intro to this video was about getting famous while other people rip off your ideas ... so a contract might be in order!
Fandom and performative outrage were among the reasons I've become more iconoclastic over the last decade. It's especially bad when people tie their mental wellbeing to products/IPs. Lore started out with fans on forums piecing together all the cool background stuff that the writers had written in codex's, novels and magazines. It was loving appreciation for world-building. To see it now treated as sacred texts would be funny, if it wasn't also deeply sad.
Absolutely agree, the obnoxious self-entitlement found in fandoms these days has completely driven me away from them. Every time I see someone using "we" in their raging comments like they represent every fan everywhere I just move on.
I‘m honestly baffled whenever I read a comment that complains about a new plot point because it doesn‘t conform to „lore“ Please, lore always services the narrative, never the other way around!
I think there's an interesting tangential discussion, which you definitely touch on here, about why these sort of commercial lifestyle hobbies or fandoms are so prone to this as a consequence of their structure. Using your example of cycling, if a bike manufacturer creates a new bike design you don't like, you can buy from a different manufacturer. If a race organiser introduces some rules you don't like, there are probably other races. With hobbies like Warhammer, if the manufacturer/publisher/owner does something you dislike, your options are put up or shut up. If you want to engage with Warhammer, it's under GW's terms. Rather than businesses following a community, a community follows a business. So I see these sorts of outrages and controversies as, in some way, a reaction to loss of control, to being unable to engage with their hobby on their preferred terms, and so are an attempt to have some control. Whether any given reaction is proportionate or sensible is another matter, but I do think there's a real, fundamental, tension at play here.
Yeah, I think these companies can't have their cake and eat it too. They want fanatical fans and a "community" rather than dispassionate customers, and it broadly benefits them. They've gotta take the rough with the smooth there, because they encourage this fandom monster.
I feel like what you describe is kind of an illusion. GW ‚controls‘ three aspects of the hobby: game, models, lore/narrative. Game: don‘t like the new rules? Play the old ones. Play with your models but a completely different ruleset all together. All you need is a single friend you would need anyways. Models: the only thing GW really controls is new models. You can get whatever released model you like, you may just have to go for second-hand or a recaster. Lore: don‘t like something? Make up your own lore. You should anyways. What I‘m saying is: you‘re a human, and you can decide yourself to do what your want with your hobby.
Ian uploaded an earlier draft by accident. Perhaps that one was, *gasp*, even more controversial? Or did you see the rumoured but completely unsubstantiated "Want to take this outside?" draft in which Ian challenged about half of the community to a fistfight outside the Dog and Trumpet after a few drinks next Friday?
Just gonna answer the question "Why do people hate primaris?" I dislike them because they represent the eventual phasing-out of my old collection of firstborn marines from the rules. Additionally, they fundamentally changed Space Marines from being a toolbox army where "every squad can do every job" through wargear, to now where every squad has one specific loadout for one particular job, and if you want to do something different, you have to buy different models. Gone are the days of having four tactical squads, each equipped with flexible wargear to take all comers. Now you have an individual rocket marine squad, a flamethrower marine squad, a plasma squad, a melta squad, and a bolter squad, who do one specific thing and nothing else particularly well. It makes list building boring and way less flexible in my opinion.
It's been 7 years and your old models are still usable. Pretty soon you're going to be like someone with old pewter 2nd edition models decrying 10th edition releases because they invalidate your collection. Average Canadian fossil.
I also think the highly specialized space marine squads should be exclusively Chaos. It's something that sets the two armies apart, rather than being spiky vs. not spiky. Imperial marines are part of a large bureaucracy with 10,000 years of history that has seen innovations and setbacks. Chaos marines have experienced that time frame in the blink of an eye and the Heresy was just a few weeks or months ago. They're still using the same tech and tactics they had when they were organized into legions. Loyal primarchs further blur the line between the two factions because they're essentially demon princes. It doesn't help marines are now better specialists than specialist armies, like Eldar.
Yes but, back to the point of the video. "Hate"? Do you really hate it? Why do you feel such a strong word and position are needed for what is supposed to be a recreative hobby?
@@basileerla It's also a recreative hobby that is _very expensive,_ both in terms of time and money. And when your time and money can be potentially invalidated due to corporate decisions people get _very angry._
@@joshwenn989 You don't have to play the latest edition / codex, you can play the old ones. You can use your old marine models as Primaris marines, you don't need to buy the new ones. The time and effort you have spent on the hobby is in no way "invalidated" People should be reminded of this, not told to "get angry"
@@Dracobyte Slann would be funky. Just grab your mates leftover lizardman models and give a third of them lasguns. Fighting weird minor groups is fun in smaller scale games like Inquisitor, Dark Heresy and Necromunda. Then you can play and beat up all the little groups that wouldn't make it into a full army. Space vampires, chaos orks and other nonsense.
As someone who really likes not just AoS, but Stormcast Eternals, I feel this. I've felt on the end of this ragebait cycle, talking to people who insist that AoS and Stormcast are the absolute worse while not actually knowing much about them. Love the video too, it's gotten me to reassess how I view Warhammer. I've been dissatisfied with the Horus Heresy and the Imperium vs Chaos narrative in 40k, and now I'm starting to realise that it is kinda just valid to check out of those instead of maintaining a hate boner. GW can keep publishing Imperium-centric books and pushing an Imperium-centric viewpoint onto 40k, but I can just retreat to my little corner of 40k in my head and ignore all that. Probably a lot healthier than getting angry about it.
@@JesusProtects OG Stormcast from 1e, and Sacrosanct from 2e, are being dropped. Anything from 3e, along with Vanguard and Extremis from 1e, are being kept, and added to in 4e. It's a lot to get dropped and people I know are angry about it, but it ain't the end of the world.
@@tombouric I totally agree, the Stormcast are garbage and lack a lot of the usual GW creativity. The same as the Votann. However I also touch grass and realise it does not impact me in any way shape or form. It's funny because I have quite a contrarian personality/mindset, so the amount of videos hating on the Stormcast and the type of people making them made me read the lore and realise they're not actually 'that bad' - still not my cup of tea at all and I won't miss them when they're gone.
"The Lore was telling us, that they no longer mattered, that they weren't important, that they were going to die and be forgotten" For the most popular lorehammer channel on the planet, he seems to completely forget what the central theme of 40k is...
Ian my guy, this video is exactly why I keep coming back to see your next video. you say things as they are, of course through the filter of your own view of them. as a youngish man, I'm quite fond of your content. really looking forward to what you plan to upload next. also, that ending was awesome.
As a journalist, I feel like the rest of the world is catching up to what has degraded our business for the last 20 years or so. This is a wonderful distillation of the psychological problems at hand in my business too. Fine work Ian! Thank you.
Ok Ian, you were already my favourite warhammer content creator but this video has massively increased my respect for you. Intelligent, nuanced and proportional discourse on the internet? Not assuming that your preferences for a thing are 'correct' and that everyone who disagrees with you isn't worthy of respect? Linking the dynamics of the internet with wider societal/political trends to understand events? Absolutely love it ❤
Ian, i just want to come out now and say thank you. Amazing content from you is a given. But your acute insights into social issues and thier intersections with the hobby are so, so appreciated. As a disabled queer person it is so validating to hear you speak. From Custodes to Primaris to Issue X one can always count on you to use your platform ethically and compassionately. Your my absolute favorite. Such high quality content. Thanks again.
This is stellar work Ian, some of your best! Your discussion on fandom as a whole can be applied all over, and really helps me understand why so many communities (especially gaming IMO) feel so much more toxic of late. Nicely done!
@@ArbitorIan Thank you for the response! Also, thank you for your comment on Mr. Bones, I was wondering why he appeared in the thumbnail with those other two :D
Another consequence of fandoms taking on media as their identity is that they pretty quickly begin to see themselves as the stewards or even true owners of the IP. Seeing how fans will flip from veneration to straight up telling the creators of their favorite IP that they don't understand their own work is pretty wild, and adds to the general rage-bait atmosphere. Great video! I feel like this explains why gamer fandoms tend to be so hostile and toxic as well.
I don't like when that object is a person, like how kpop fans will act out if their fandom-person acts outside expectation. And how the core of korean kpop fans can't understand that they are a small group on the world stage.
One thing some people seem to forget is that you can make up your own lore. You want your guys all being firstborns in new armor? You want your necrons still be enslaved by their gods? Just do it, nobody is stopping you. And if you want to play with old models, just find someone who appreciates it. I really like seeing unique armies and ideas and i'm sure other do so too.
I've gone down the route of these are what space marines are. A squad of Primaris for me has a Sgt, a special weapon, a heavy weapon and 7 bolter dudes
I remember the newcrons/oldcrons. The necrons got a lot closer to tomb kings. The tomb kings were all mad, larger than life court personalities wielding their hordes as extensions of weirdo personal feuds and stagnated court culture. Dawn of War 1 got out when there was only oldcrons. And they weren't all that fun to play yourself. You could slowly plod forward on foot into medium range and start blasting. It was a lot of plodding. It could be cool to be on the receiving end but not when you're the one doing the plodding.
I've toyed around with the headcanon that the Imperium was irrevocably split in two when the Great Rift tore the galaxy in half. Guilliman was never found/awakened (I don't like the concept of bringing Primarchs back) and the Mechanicus suppressed Cawl's urges to innovate in this version of events. The "Dark Imperium" side, isolated and cut off from Terra and the Astronomican, was relentlessly attacked by its enemies and quickly backed into a relatively small corner of the galaxy. Facing utter annihilation, it was decided that radical, even heretical changes had to be made, including the gradual reimplementation of scientific and technological advances. This resulted in the creation of Primaris Marines, grav tanks and all of the other "new toys" that Cawl's come up with in the official lore and more (maybe even female Space Marines?). This gave just enough of an edge to not only survive, but to beat back the enemy just enough to establish tenuous contact with the Imperium again. Ironically, the so-called "Dark Imperium" (we'll call them "Neo-Imperium" from here on out) had become more advanced and less backward than their counterparts on the other side of the Great Rift. This was enough for them to be branded as heretics and traitors by the High Lords and, rather than being welcomed back, the Neo-Imperium now finds itself at war with the very people they initially sought to rejoin. Boom, there you go. Not only has the story and setting advanced in new and interesting ways (at least I think so), but GW could have double dipped by making Primaris Marines their own faction while letting "Oldmarines" fans keep their old minis.
I agree and I’ve ran into people saying, oh it’s not for the fans it’s for the developers 🤓 I didn’t know they had a fetish for dickriding people who don’t care about them
I have been sick of seeing all the hate videos for the hobby I use to get away from the real world, I get that it gets more views for those content creators but just ruins the hobby for me in my own opinion. Im happy to see someone call this out.
Had a genuinely thoughtful time listening in the car. What a lovely video. Covered a lot of things to sit back and consider of oneself, and a very fair analysis of remembering that content creators arent' your buddies. I remember TotalBiscuit (RIP the legend) always stressing it, and that was BEFORE the boom time of influencers. I love that you directly mention the way that "hate" outside of incidental casual word use only emerges from something outside of the actual matter itself. The only true disagreement I'd have is on FOMO, which I feel it a toxic practice that preys on the compulsive and often neurodivergent, and I highly recommend Jim Sterling's video on why FOMO/RNG is such a dangerous thing and why "you can always not buy it" isn't really much of a defence for vulnerable people. Excellent stuff, Ian, always appreciate your calm and thoughtful views.
I just want to say that you're my favorite 40k ruber since your so calm informative and passionate intressting and most importantly humble. You're the type of person people can aspire to be, so please keep continue showcasing these beatiful qualities. :)
I think this whole Primaris argument, and let me make it clear I don’t like them models lore and everything about them, comes down to what GW is as a company. GW claims to be a model company that also makes games you can play with their models. However, at least at the stores I used to go to, the sales pitch was here is this cool world with loads of lore and a cool game, oh and you can buy all these models as well. So when GW suddenly changed everything the whiplash was more extreme than D&D or MTG, which has always been clear game first lore second. It probably didn’t help that people like me, who legitimately don’t like the redesign, had to accept that well no more 40k Space Marines for me, so off to Hersey. Wait you upscaled the Marines here and they look great? Why didn’t you just do that in 40k? And then they started releasing new Primaris that basically look like upscaled classic models, which really feels like GW wanting to have it both ways. Of course that makes sense GW is a company that exists to make money, but it really leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
I bought my 1st 40K minis in 2001 and they were Space Marines. I never realized that they were squat and dumpy looking until the Primaris line dropped in 2017. I love the new sculpts ( not all of them mind you, but most of them) from an aesthetic standpoint. The lore is where GW lost its way a bit. It was simply ridiculous. So Cawl and Guilliman come up with a new updated version of genetically engineered super soldiers that are about a foot taller than the first born marines, but otherwise exactly the same. For a brief time in 8th edition Primaris marines had 2 wounds and mini marines had 1, but that was soon after changed and the minis got a 2nd wound. It was a lame, awkward go between. They weren’t faster (both move 6”) tougher (toughness 4) stronger (strength 4) or more accurate (both hit on 3s). Now 2 editions later the word Primaris has been all but eliminated from the setting. They are simply Space Marines as they should have been all along.
Ian unloaded a with a full social discourse! Very interesting to listen to. Side note - I don't reckon there would be half as much complaining about FOMO and limited releases, if there wasn't the endemic scalping issue. You can't really mention one without the other
My reason for hating the Primaris marines was it signaled the end of 7th edition, to this day I think was the best edition Games Workshop with so much variety in ways you could play your armies, I stopped playing 40K when 8th came out and switched exclusively to 30K afterwards. On a lore aspect I think that the Primaris marines kinda ruined the individuality of the different chapters by getting rid of their genetic defects. The black rage, red thirst, wulfen, make those chapters unique. What makes a great hero isn’t the fact that he’s perfect it’s his inherent flaws that he finds a way to overcome.
I find it pretty funny that for 40k GW tries to slowly introduce a new product line in without completely nuking people’s collections and people get upset. They learned from that lesson for AoS and just say up front, we are changing these models for new ones, and people are still upset. It’s one of those things where we hear a huge uproar from the squeakiest wheels which are mostly in the minority anyway.
I also find it really weird peeps immediately discard legends rules because can't be played in a tournament... Most of the stormcast is just getting updated and you can still use your old ones (if a tournament squig list can have old metal squigs why can't I just use pre updated stormcast) and the others still perfectly fine to use in a casual game (and heck if it's to weak or to strong do some homebrew ^^) I did get a bit frustrated with boc as they will still make them for old world so only legends rules for them in aos felt dumb while they could just sell the box with 2 base types or peeps gotta buy some extra bases, but ow well I don't have the army and if I did legend rules it would have been ^^
I really like your TH-cam channel. Your comments are always in a calm, respectful tone and you don't bash Warhammer, even if you don't like the creations. As far as the design goals are concerned, I think you're absolutely right. Having the new Spaces Marines and Primaris helped to win over hobbyists, who saw the change from the old range to the new one as important and pleasing. I came across your video again today when GW announced the Sanguinor and the Sanguinary Guard. While the Primaris vibe works for me with the Guard, the Sanguinor is really exactly the same, just scaled up. One of the points you didn't mention is that the more neutral Primaris make it easier to kitbash. For veterans of the hobby, it's a wonderful playground, with or without green stuff. Thanks for your videos, I recommend them in my Warhammer commu as they're really great!
God, this video was excellently timed with all the flame wars going on with female Custodes. It's been exhausting seeing the community treat an innocuous retcon like Big Brother decreeing that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
I don't know what the custodes do all day on the board. I remember when the grey knights were out and my mates who play competitively described it as the new meta. Personally I don't like adding mechanics that just add something new and stronger. But then I would probably start removing unit after unit instead, or replacing every single hero character with generic heroes.
Youre a r..... how can.you not see the pattern? No critical thinking probably , it always starts with a "small" thing and look how many franchises are ruined
@@SusCalvinmeta in warhammer is very contrived. Custodes have fluctuated significantly in rankings. If anything, the Tau have dominated the tier lists the longest of any faction, but not by too large of a margin.
Ian, I've subscribed since the start. I very much like your content. But this video... This video is sublime. It is your masterpiece. Well done. Bloody, well done. Cheers. Ta ta.
Funny, I liked 'Space Marine Range Refresh v1' and didn't think your reasoning why it wouldn't work was very good at all. Pretty sure totally replacing the firstborn messes up more armies than just bringing out upscaled models. And yeah, you can just replace the kits outright, they do that now.
I do wish that I could see more video creators taking this approach when analyzing subjects like the ones you covered here,upon others. Hats off mr.Ian
I love 40K. Ive spent at this point likely months or years of my life painting or reading or listening to audiobooks or playing video games or watching videos or god knows what else in the setting. I could probably give a three day lecture series on lore topics on demand. But then i realize i care like 1% as much as some folks seem to. People gotta calm down. Go look at a lake or something. See that theres other stuff in life. Primaris are cool. Its all fine. Relax and play with your toys.
This. I mean, god knows how much time I've spent on this. I have a bloody TH-cam channel where I talk about it weekly. And when things change I'm just not that bothered. It's not IMPORTANT important. And then I look around and everyone is losing their minds!
Fucken hell Ian, watching this video took you from “cool bloke I listen to occasionally to hear about the Horus heresy” to “someone whose opinion and analysis I greatly respect”. Really thoughtful discussion of the topic!
I feel this video should be a '101' course for people in all fan base communities. Be careful of manipulated hate. I both like and dislike (not hate) the Primaris. Like: The true-scale size; How marines were always supposed to be sized. Well done GW. Dislike: Removing all the different weapon options, which made the miniatures more interesting to look at. All the creative energy redirected into explaining Primaris as a new type of marine. Still love marines though. Im one of the few that hope they'll eventually release a primaris scale Tactical Squad (with Leader & Special/Heavy). Give 'em the new primaris weapon options if you want, so long as there's still options to make. The 'alt' weapons dont even need to have rules if you want to avoid rules/gameplay bloat. If they don't - meh. I'll just make 'em myself. Chill vibes man.
I kind of like the old, less demigod-y marines. The ones who were T4 S4 W1 blokes in 3+ powered armour and no more. If trooper Joebert fires a lasgun and strips a Wound, a marine becomes a casualty just like that. Model design has crept upwards slowly. A beakie marine next to a modern non-primaris marine looks awkward. There was a lot more technical limitations that do not exist today. A guardsman from then also looks like weirdo croucher next to modern ones.
The thing that fascinates me with many WH40k fans is often just how... literally they take things, or how they take things at face value. Like, did anyone really think that the Emperor single-handedly created the Astartes? Yes, it's often presented that way, but there's a thing about these narratives: they're just that, narratives. History is full of these "great men" narratives, but Napoleon didn’t conquer eruope by himself. The Wright brothers didn't make their first flying machine out of spontaneous inspiration. One man didn't invent, create, and manufacture the atom bomb. The reality is that for every name in a history book, there are thousands left out and unremembered. 40k is a setting built on the ideas of redaction, contradiction, and other tools to make the minutae unreliable.
I’m guessing the larger base/models were to make backward compatibility harder since there were so many old models out there. The same reason legions imperialis isn’t the same scale as epic.
While I mostly agree with you, I would also say we have a similar problem from the GW apologist side. The idea that any complaint is wrong and unwelcome and that you should be happy to just give GW all your money and accept all the dirty tricks they use to get said money is every bit as toxic as these incredibly dumb click bait rage videos.
It's probably because my teenage years were during the late 90s and early 00s when the internet was essentially unavailable but I find it mad that people identify with corporate brand as part of their identity. You see similar discourse in the comments of gaming sites etc. People identify as Xbox or playstation fans as opposed to someone who just owns a particular console. Take these things as what they are, hobbies and nothing more.
I really appreciate that you are critical of GW when it's called for, but you're not senselessly negative. Spikeybits is basically ideological cancer. I still don't like Primaris marines but I keep it to myself lol
Yeah, same. I don't like them but who needs to hear about it from me? If people like them, just let them have fun, I say. I'm having fun with my old stuff.
I remember when grey knights were new and one of my mates described them a bit like the new meta. I'm a little weary of adding a thing that is smply bigger and better. But then I would probably go through unit catalogues and tear out a third of the models in it. "You don't need a special marine hero character, take this generic marine captain and give 'im a plasma pistol."
There is a reason why you are one of my faves when it comes to 40k. Thoughtful, rational and perfectly willing to just go "meh" when it is whst is called for. Excellent video!
What I find a bit odd is that GW took the exact opposite approach with Sisters of Battle, where they just released upscaled versions of the old models. All the old stuff is still playable, though I did have to add a couple of extra heavy bolters to my tanks. I ended up replacing all my old metal Sisters simply because the new ones were better (and lighter!) My personal issue with Primaris is that they've turned Marines from an army that was very simple to play, and play against, to one that is horribly complicated and slow. A Land Raider has three guns (maybe 4, if you add a Storm Bolter). A Repulsor has what, 8? It used to be a Marine with a Bolter was a Marine with a Bolter, now there's at least five different versions with different rules, saves and profiles. It makes them very annoying to play against when you have to keep checking which squad is the Heavy Intercessors, which is the basic Intercessors, and which is Sternguard etc etc. As for the videos referenced, I'm with Valrak on the merits of 'drama farmer llamas'- I have better things to do with my time!
@@henryfleischer404 Second editions are a good shout. 1) It's a sign the game was good/popular enough for a second run. 2) I own a lot of crap that was clearly not properly play tested and has weird rule problems. Yay fixes? C) Game designers often have no idea what the words layout, TOC, index or structure mean. I'm sure it's great when the designer is running the game and doesn't need to look anything up but it's not useful when the book tells you to flip to page XX because they didn't go back and change it before publishing.
Great analysis as always Ian. I absolutely LONG for a time when the bubble bursts and the rage/click bait grift becomes no longer tenable and we can return to properly researched, balanced, professional quality content.
I can't believe one of the best videos I've seen about media literacy and self-identification with a hobby came from a 40k loretuber. But if it was going to be from one, of course it would be from you. Thanks, Ian! Keep up the good work! 😁
It was about money. I don't really care and haven't had the time to collect/paint/play for a long time, but money is clearly the main reason. They could easily have just updated the look of space marines and said they were wearing a new mark of armour. But then people might not have bought them in the numbers that they did. Most people that play 40k are space marine players, by making a NEW type of space marine everyone who plays the faction has to update their entire army. Most people who played the game now had to spend loads of money. Saying this is okay in lore is just reaching. In 20 years will we see space marine space marine space marines?
Yeah. And with the way way things are going, we might need a new space marine range in 5 years… the Primaris range is already more bloated than the firstborn ever were.
The very first army I ever collected were the victims of a range refresh. I had built up a Lizardmen army back in 5th edition, the first one the faction ever had, and then the very next edition the whole range got a refresh and none of the new models looked right next to my old ones (lol, Old Ones). Also the army book declared that Lizardmen are all blue now, for some reason. The point is, that happened when I was 14 and I STILL handled it more maturely than some of these grown adults who are still complaining about Primaris Marines to this day!
My second army was planned to be Squats, and I called up Mail Order to try to order them, and only managed to get some of the last squat bikers they had in stock. I was very disappointed, but yeah, I got over it and eventually many years later got a bunch of Mantic Forgefathers to scratch the itch. Weirdly, the Votaan do nothing for me there.
Ayyy, Good Video! I agree with a good chunk of your points throughout the video, perpetuating toxic fandom-based traits is never a good thing. Keep up the good work!
I agree that fan reaction can be greatly overblown, but it is genuinely frustrating for a corporation to sell you a product, then, relatively quickly, discontinue the primary means by which you can utilize that product. Still, it's definitely incorrect to identify enough with your army toys that you get more angry than frustrated at this prospect; the appropriate response is just to recognize that you shouldn't invest more time, effort, and money than you're prepared to lose to these sorts of shenanigans in the hobby.
Yeah, I think a lot of the stuff online is people being performative to some extent. It's fine to be annoyed and it's no big deal if you go off about it online. But then, you modify your behaviour and give that corpo less of your money, because they are making you unhappy.
My revelation to stop being fodder for rageTube content creators is to stop being a fan, of anything really. I like things, I enjoy things, I just try not to be emotionally invested in, as you say, a product. It also helps to virtually retire the use of the word "hate", reserve it for things actually matter, not just everything that irks you. The way that a lot of content creators depend on a self-perpetuating cycle of *hype/hate/told you so* (very prominent in the MMO space) is so transparently shallow. The saddest part is that they are fulfilling consumer demands for drama cOnTEnt, arguably manufactured demand, but the culture is baked in now. Anyhow, enjoy your videos, they are chill.
I’m one of the people who would have been totally fine with GW going “here’s the new scale, new armor, this is what the models look like now, it’s a new armor mk, don’t worry about it”
The nod to Philosophy Tube is so great. To the point, great deep dive into the content creation culture and overly internalized idea of "community / identity". In the words of Ilya Bryzagalov "It's only game. Why you have to be mad?"
Though I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, I think you also exhibit a heavy underlying dismissive tone. Yes, Games Workshop is just a company selling model toys and accompanying merchandise, but that could be said of anything. Sports teams are just adults playing games and selling tickets to their shows. Music artists are just selling music. If they change a rule in soccer that fundamentally changes the game, it would be easy as a non-soccer fan to just say 'get over it. it's just a game'. People don't want to see the things they like being fundamentally changed to their core, which Primaris did. Nearly every 40k book starts with the words "Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding..." followed by a change where the Imperium adopts a significant amount of progress in their genetics, weapons, equipment, armor, etc. after apparently relearning how to do them. On top of this, as you point out, a fan of 40k has likely spend an insane amount of money, time, and effort into buying, building, reading, painting, and playing, and so a change that makes whatever has been spent in time and money moot, is going to be met with...hate.
Dont forget the Monetary commitment many people make. Justifying their purchases by saying its who I am. That pile of shame constantly nagging at them but people seeing past it because they are so committed to their lifestyle choice. When that over indulgent spending is then seen as being wasted because GW eliminates their part of the hobby, a petson can feel quite helpless, used, and insignificant. That's worth something. And some people take drastic measures to ease that pain and feeling of betrayal.
The last part of this video seriously needs to be taught in schools. Its important for everyone to realise that being a fan of something shouldnt make you feel offended when that thing changes
I sort of agree with the general point that people take Warhammer too seriously, but I think you're forgetting that it's a huge investment of both money and time for majority of its participants. In that context, it makes more sense to me why people would get so pissed when their existing armies are invalidated; that's a huge loss of investment. There's an emotional aspect to it as well, naturally, which is what can get over the top.
Worth noting TheHonestWargamer's kind and humane video about the AoS changes. Rob asked people to give one another space to feel their feelings, and stressed that most people would happily accept proxying in most games. It was nice.
I'm so happy you made this video. Thank you. I'm brand new to the hobby, and to get caught up on lore (300+ novels!?) I naturally turned to TH-cam. The negativity some folks bring to a hobby is too much for me. Just more of the sort of manufactured outrage (gotta thank you for teaching me the term 'rage faming,' btw) that I really don't enjoy watching. As for which sort of lore video I do enjoy, well, I'll just say that your channel is the only one I subscribed to. Love the channel, and thanks for not just giving into the lure of rage farming!
Welcome to the hobby! In my experience, an overwhelming majority of other people who enjoy and partake in Warhammer are people like ArbitorIan. Namely, chilled out, sensible, empathetic, creative people who want to have as much fun playing with their toys as possible! I hope very much your hobby experience is similar to mine :) Enjoy!
People love to hate anything new, I was in the hobby since lead marines existed. I still love Primaris.. My whole army has been sunset-ted, and well i quit 5 years ago but i feel Primaris were a good idea even if the whole lore of them was done poorly.. Oh and Raven Guard are the coolest! D&D tell that to Gnome and Halfling players..
Ian - "A fan might spend hours painting whilst listening to idiots to me"
Me, looking up from the model I'm painting at 11pm at night.: Well that seems an unnecessary callout...
I too felt seen…..
Thousands of hours painting and listening to audio books... runner... Eldar player... GET OUT OF MY HEAD IAN!!!
o/
I, also, looked up from the mini I was in the middle of painting when he said that
I'm in this video and I don't like it.
There are two things war gamers hate. The current state of the game and change.
Not at all. 2nd-6th edition was peak 40K.
Vortagh? Imagine bumping into you here! 😄
@@ObjectiveAnalysis in retrospective, yes. but during 3rd and 4th edition there were also the usual complaints about the state of the game. 5th and 6th edition were just trash.
they're nurgle and tzeentch at the same time
Gamers want to learn new rules- but don't want to have to learn new rules.. They want OP stuff nerfed - but don't want to have to update their composition of gaming pieces to stay competitive. They want there to be constant stream of cool new stuff to buy - but don't want their old stuff being victim of planned obsolescence.
This needs a Mira Manga introduction, "It was a time of DRAAAAAMAH!"
😂
I'm looking forward to a Mira video rebuting this video
@@miramanga I heard your voice when I read that !!!
Second this, and I'd add a request for Mira to do an overly dramatic intro line for every one of Ian videos going forward!
Yes….we the Imperium demand this
Well, as the saying goes: Tabletop-Fans only hate two things: Things changing and things not changing.
This paradox must drive them absolutely insane
@@CBRN-115Not when they have cognitive dissonance.
Love this, perfectly encapsulates it
Tabletop Fans, the natural enemies of Tabletop Fans.
@@radred609 Tabletop gamers *Hate* tabletop games smh
We used to call it a lifestyle hobby. The difference between a hobby and a lifestyle hobby is that a lifestyle hobbyist doesn't have other hobbies.
Many hobbies can become that. I played American Football for a loooong time here in the UK and plenty of my teammates prioritised running around in funny shoulder pads far above their jobs and families, let alone other hobbies. That is surely why some of them were soooo much better than me too, but it isn't like they were aiming for the NFL! My wife does Roller Derby and many are the same there. Every friendship or romance is within that community, every decision in the rest of their life revolves around it. It doesn't seem healthy to me.
Hobby - lifestyle hobby - obsession
@@jacobturnerart ... -Fulgrim -Slaanesh
can't afford other hobbies :P
That sounds obsessive.
This video offends me as a warhammer fan which is the definitive characteristic of my personality.
I look forward to your apology video.
"REEEEE"
then unfortunately your personality was formed by a marketing team :P (obv u are kidding tho)
What? A Warhammer TH-camr treating me like the adult that I am? I . . . I don't know how to deal with this.
It’s ok! We will get through this together!
Cool!
One of the best thing about warhammer is the community. Also the worst thing about warhammer is the community.
I remember taking business ethics in collage. The first day of class, the professor stood up in front of the class and said matter of factly, "In the modern business world, there is no such thing as ethics in business. That is not to say there shouldn't be, just that there isn't. They are more concerned about what is legal than what is ethical. That should never be the case. An ethical man does twice what is expected of them and only half of what is allowed. If you focus on what you are allowed to do then you can never call yourself an ethical person. It is my hope in this class to make ethical people. It is your job to create ethical business."
That click bait exists is not the issue. The issue is that when someone gets called out on it, their instant response is "I'm not violating the terms of service." Just because you are following the rules doesn't make you a righteous person. That is literally the least we expect of you.
Ian, I find you to be at least a conscientious man and have given us a great deal of your time to explain lore, talk about rules, paint little miniatures with your friends, and review some of the most prolific branded literature on the planet. I can also say with a bit of certainty that you at least try to be an honest and ethical man given what little we see on these videos. I truly wish that there were more like you and even if everyone conducted themselves like you do I would still wish for more.
Is the world ethical? Not really. It is up to us to hold ourselves to higher standards and at times shame the bad actors in our world into being better themselves. Not by calling them out, but by just shaking our heads and moving on.
I completely agree but, why that ethic should not be asked also about GW?
There are many business that build their reputation/position on niche market and, to keep the infinite grow, then they change their product in order to cater a wider audience. This is 101 business strategy. When you like the initial product and it stops being what it was just for more profits on a public traded company, then you complain about it.
@@makinote You can not control others, only yourself. Thereforeyou should always praise those who do right and expect nothing from it and just accept that not everyone will be ethical. vote with your wallet and look for that which you want.
@@dylanblack3635 I feel like this is an easy stance to take if you have no skin in the game, but how do you handle a situation where you've spent quite a lot of money and no small amount of time preparing yourself via building, painting and reading to engage with a particular hobby only for the powers that be who have the heaviest impact on that space to negatively impact your experience? This isn't like video games where one can pick up and put down a title with very little material cost, but there is a very real material cost to this hobby in particular.
@@ImrahilToChaos Well, seeing as I have in my life spent roughly several thousand dollars at this point on Roleplaying game books and related merchandise, I would say that one option is to play your game for enjoyment. You control your gaming experience. You have your rules and the rules you and your friends agree to play. You are not a slave to the game, and the second you feel that you are a slave to the game then your hobby has moved into the point of addiction.
You have choices. Do not let others decide for you.
@@dylanblack3635 The Warhammer hobby and gameplay space is a little bit larger than just me - though in this case your advice being angled towards me specifically isn't required, as I don't play any of these games in a manner that would require this advice. More, there are a lot of people out there who do not exist in this charmed space of life in which these corporate decisions do not affect people who are playing the games.
What if someone's only space to play games in is an LGS where the adopted rules are the latest ones? This isn't even a hypothetical - this sort of thing happens all the time with less reasonable issues, never mind what's happening with AoS right now. The spaces that move to the beat of the corporate drum because that's the easiest way to keep everyone on the same page are arguably the most common ones for semi-dedicated players to exist in and enjoy the hobby, especially outside of kitchen table spaces - so what do these people do? How else does one respond when following your advice? Move to another game entirely? This isn't the sunk cost fallacy, there's quite literally money going to waste in that situation.
Why shouldn't criticism of the lack of ethics employed by the corporation who changed things for the worse be an acceptable response?
There is something amazingly cathartic abut someone finally being able to put what ive been trying to figure out why the fandom is so utterly exhausting into words...and then shout it out loud where they can hear it and im not the one doing it. Bravely done, Ian.
exactly!
Majorkill tries to hit Weshammer with a lariat but Weshammer dodges! But wait! Who’s that? It’s Arbitor Ian with the steel chair!!!!!
Bah gawd he's broken in half
Well thought out argument! From the top rope!
I despise majork*nt so I'd definitely pay to see that, I get why wes might not be for everyone but he's said that himself and just seems like a nice lad just enjoying the hobby.
*glass shatters* crowd pops
As Majorkill and Weshamner have collaborated before, might this be a staged thing?
A Face and a Heel?
That thumbnail was so click-baity I literally scrolled right past it thinking “Oh that can’t be Ian…” 😂
Next time Ian needs to wear a vest top in his thumbnail, and more gurning at some minatures.
@@simonyj needs a blurred out model too
"The lore is essentially a series of stories designed to market toy soldiers" - Best quote ever!! :)
Works perfectly for me
Also very accurate
A very good point some people just don't want to understand. The way the primaris were introduced helped me realize that the lore, as cool as it is, is also a marketing tool. If GW sees enough profit in making say female SMs, they will make female marines possible in the lore before selling new models, even if it states the opposite now. Because space magic, or the emperor's will or whatever. That's just the way it is
It's why I love this channel. Ian obviously a dedicated fan who loves it, but he's capable of having perspective. The lore isn't the Ten Commandments, it's stuff a vast collection of writers have made up, with its primary goal to get you to BUY MORE FIGURINES. This stuff ain't the 95 Theses, the Horus Heresy didn't truly become a THING until, what, a decade and a half into the game's existence?
Deep breath everyone! We're playing a game. A very expensive, time consuming game that we love.
@@Prederick his perspective will stop if GW goes against something he holds sacred.
That Discourse Miniatures is the worst one for Click/RageBait and misinformation....EVERY Video is will contain words such as "killing" "Crisis" "TOXIC" "Scam"...Every video has to do with a scandal or some crisis or trouble...ive never seen her do an actual video on the gaming/painting or lore side just all pure rubbish.
Yep awful channel
Exceptional work as the voice of reason talking about both the game as an actual game, and all the concerns that go with the realities of manufacturing etc, and the place of Warhammer and community within the modern world. Though the lack of latex catsuit on a spaceship is disappointing Ian, but preceded by the perfect summary of "I can't imagine feeling anything other than a slight annoyance at it, it's not important" is just *chef's kiss*
Look, if I'd waited for the catsuit to arrive this video would have been EVEN MORE out of date
@@ArbitorIan So what I'm hearing is you've got the spaceship knocking around already then? I guess it'd make the touring show tech day job easier!
@@ArbitorIan Should have asked Abnett to borrow one of his bodygloves.
Voice of Reason?
😂😂😂😂
You should hear what he says in private.
This was a masterclass in media analysis. Beautiful
I think one of the reasons for the particularly over the top response of the Warhammer community that you haven't touched on is the sheer cost of the hobby. If I pay £20 for a videogame on Steam and the developers stop patching it after a couple of years thats no big deal. If I spend £500 on a set of models plus hundreds of hours of time building and painting them, I think it's natural to feel more strongly about a change to the level of support they receive from the manufacturer. This is magnified for younger people with both a less mature attitude and less disposable income. It's further magnified by the way the hobby is sold. I often hear some variant of 'models first' but that isn't the impression a new hobbyist gets. They sometimes view it as a game first that's accessed through the medium of hobbying and I don't think GW do much to dispel that. Rules and even whole systems, particularly 40k, are written as if competitive play with its ever evolving meta is the intended way to experience the game. Personally, I don't see it that way but that's because I'm an old fart - I remember blast templates and never getting balance updates. Returning to the hobby after a long absence, I was surprised by how tournament play has become so dominant and I think it's a key element of why the fan base can be so toxic. If your hobby is playing in tournaments, range updates and lore changes will feel like a crude tax and sometimes it's hard to argue that isn't the case - I'm talking to you, desolation squads. Just my two pence really, I liked the video a lot and thought I'd chuck in this additional point just to see if it rings true with anyone else.
Completely agree, and I would feel the same if I primarily played in tournaments but luckily I prefer to play with a few friends (so we can play various editions and Legends and alter rules slightly, etc).
I remember a while back I was getting SOOOO sick of the phrase "a slap in the face", as any nerdy fandom I enjoyed enough to join discussions on constantly had people saying that this thing that happened is a "slap in the face" and this update was a "slap in the face" and the company that owns the franchise not doing X or Y is a "slap in the face." It was just utterly exhausting.
This video reminded me why I started dropping out of places like that, the sense of entitlement and constant soap box outrage just sucks the fun out of it for me.
Personally I think phrases like that are being FORCED DOWN OUR THROATS
oh my god someone put it into words
This comment felt like a slap in the face.
These comments have RUINED MY CHILDHOOD
Clark DESTROYS the term slap in the face.
One important thing to remember is that GW was also moving towards rebranding things with more copyrightable names, with things like Eldar becoming Aeldari, Imperial Guard becoming Astra Militarum and the like. This can probably be traced back to the Chapterhouse Studios lawsuit and how generic names like Tactical Marines, Imperial Guard and Eldar can't be enforced in court.
but everyone i know still calls em the guard :D
I remember how they pulled up a long list into court and were told they could not copyright "assassin". They preserved the most important bits at least.
I get the first two, but isn't Eldar already a deviation of Elf, and thus it can be copyrighted?
@@Loloswaghetto Eldar is a name taken from Lord of the Rings.
@Loloswaghetto sir, you need to return your nerd card to the store.
Great video and a lot to think about.
One related thing I'd add is the way companies co-opt and encourage that identity. Companies blur the line (as do celebrities) between purveyor and consumer to encourage sales, yet are surprised when 'The Fandom' acts with more entitlement than the relationship would strictly warrant. Very classical Rome and beware of unleashing the mob.
The Philosophy Tube reference was GOLD. Great video, Ian!
Ian. This is by far, the most erudite explanation of what has been going on with fan's and settings for the last 10-15 years. The huge uptick in the push to turn fan, back into the full word, Fanatic.
Lol, had to look up what erudite meant. Had no clue what your comment meant before that. Definitely gunna squeeze that in to my next essay!
Took the words. Great video, great points.
@@maxhall5260 LOL. if you have teachers reaching for a dictionary or thesaurus, you you have done your job for the day. try slipping one of these into your essays too en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang
"You're encouraged to ideologically cosplay the faction you choose"
I am a Blood Raven player and I have to make it very clear I have paid for or been gifted everything I own...
Just sometimes, the other party isn't entirely aware they've gifted it to me
I hate it when "the same 20 guys turn up to every plot point" and that's one reason I like Warhammer so much compared to lots of other sci fi and fantasy franchises. I guess 40k does it some times, but its proliferation of random characters who show up for a novel and then die half way through is a real strength of the setting.
The problem with Cawl is that He Is "One of the 20 guys" but in this case he's just the stand-in for the Entire Adeptus Mechanicus.
With Horus Heresy and the Primarchs returning that's begun to seep pretty hard into 40K, though
The funny thing is that I feel the “same 20 guys” problem has only become more dominant since Gathering Storm
The real heroes are a coin-clipper, a fourth daughter noble, a fisherman, a student and a bandit fighting mutants in the muck trying to pull their stagecoach over. Everything else is just a backstory to why we are beating these mutants.
Alternatively, Mad Mike the ganger plugging some fool with an autogun underneath the stairs up to a pub.
This video is really good and the whole "you should treat content creators as the small business that they are" is just flawless and very honest.
I do have to play the devil's advocate a little though, because I think that even though the whole analysis of the nerd rage causes is spot on (and I do expect the costume changes and the latex Abigail Thorn style in your next opinion piece) it dramatically underestimates the economic aspect of it.
I for example am simply too poor to play 40k right now, the hobby costs a shitload of money for a university student that lives of small jobs and (ironically) Warhammer paining commissions. When I do have time to paint something for myself I take it as a work of art because I simply don't have the money to get in the whole "buy-paint-play-repeat" mindset that leader-company-in-the-field gamesworkshop pushes so hard so every piece I make is something that costed me a large percentage of my spending money and lots of time that I could have spent full on fine wine and oyster like I guess non-warhammer players do in their free time.
My point is that such a big economic investment has people nervous by itself and even if warhammer has a very conservative (in every sense of the word sadly) odience it is completely understandable to be more than slightly bothered when you see the models that you've put so much time and effort in being discontinued and progressively next to impossible to play if you want to continue to participate in the community as is.
Can I humbly request official “Hate-o-metre” merch?
I've got to start writing this stuff down
The chainsaw should be a separate piece using Velcro technology!
@@GaryKeenanI think we need to start talking consultancy fees.
@@OutlawScreamingJesus I mean, the whole intro to this video was about getting famous while other people rip off your ideas ... so a contract might be in order!
@@embiggenedbadger4297 shall I get my people to talk to your people?
What a change only a few days make. I yearn for such simpler times.
Fandom and performative outrage were among the reasons I've become more iconoclastic over the last decade. It's especially bad when people tie their mental wellbeing to products/IPs.
Lore started out with fans on forums piecing together all the cool background stuff that the writers had written in codex's, novels and magazines. It was loving appreciation for world-building. To see it now treated as sacred texts would be funny, if it wasn't also deeply sad.
Yeah, big time agree. It's your hobby, do what you want with it. Be a creator, not a consumer.
Absolutely agree, the obnoxious self-entitlement found in fandoms these days has completely driven me away from them. Every time I see someone using "we" in their raging comments like they represent every fan everywhere I just move on.
I‘m honestly baffled whenever I read a comment that complains about a new plot point because it doesn‘t conform to „lore“
Please, lore always services the narrative, never the other way around!
I'm sorry, but mentioning Primaris Marines means youve stolen this video idea from Majorkill
I think there's an interesting tangential discussion, which you definitely touch on here, about why these sort of commercial lifestyle hobbies or fandoms are so prone to this as a consequence of their structure.
Using your example of cycling, if a bike manufacturer creates a new bike design you don't like, you can buy from a different manufacturer. If a race organiser introduces some rules you don't like, there are probably other races. With hobbies like Warhammer, if the manufacturer/publisher/owner does something you dislike, your options are put up or shut up. If you want to engage with Warhammer, it's under GW's terms. Rather than businesses following a community, a community follows a business.
So I see these sorts of outrages and controversies as, in some way, a reaction to loss of control, to being unable to engage with their hobby on their preferred terms, and so are an attempt to have some control. Whether any given reaction is proportionate or sensible is another matter, but I do think there's a real, fundamental, tension at play here.
Yeah, I think these companies can't have their cake and eat it too. They want fanatical fans and a "community" rather than dispassionate customers, and it broadly benefits them. They've gotta take the rough with the smooth there, because they encourage this fandom monster.
The only exception to your explanation is 3d printing and proxies in casual games. These have gone a long way in equalizing the playing field.
I feel like what you describe is kind of an illusion. GW ‚controls‘ three aspects of the hobby: game, models, lore/narrative.
Game: don‘t like the new rules? Play the old ones. Play with your models but a completely different ruleset all together. All you need is a single friend you would need anyways.
Models: the only thing GW really controls is new models. You can get whatever released model you like, you may just have to go for second-hand or a recaster.
Lore: don‘t like something? Make up your own lore. You should anyways.
What I‘m saying is: you‘re a human, and you can decide yourself to do what your want with your hobby.
So funny thing.
After watching this video I've started getting recommendations for Rage Bait Warhammer videos.
Which is just a sad irony.
What have I done? 💀
Loving the Philosophy Tube reference, and I'd love to see that collab.
Hell yeah. I bet Philosophy Tube secretly plays Eldar
@@nanokindled8435philsophytube posted the eldar can’t win thread
I was going to comment the same thing, but was near fully positive that some had already, and I was correct.
Would settle for Ian in a latex catsuit.
@nanokindled8435 nah I have a hunch that Abby is a fan sisters of battle
I'm so glad you are a part of this community! You bring a much needed adult perspective to this whole hobby.
Was on the previous upload two minutes ago before it was pulled. Glad to be back.
Now where was I..
yep
Ian uploaded an earlier draft by accident. Perhaps that one was, *gasp*, even more controversial?
Or did you see the rumoured but completely unsubstantiated "Want to take this outside?" draft in which Ian challenged about half of the community to a fistfight outside the Dog and Trumpet after a few drinks next Friday?
Just gonna answer the question "Why do people hate primaris?"
I dislike them because they represent the eventual phasing-out of my old collection of firstborn marines from the rules.
Additionally, they fundamentally changed Space Marines from being a toolbox army where "every squad can do every job" through wargear, to now where every squad has one specific loadout for one particular job, and if you want to do something different, you have to buy different models.
Gone are the days of having four tactical squads, each equipped with flexible wargear to take all comers. Now you have an individual rocket marine squad, a flamethrower marine squad, a plasma squad, a melta squad, and a bolter squad, who do one specific thing and nothing else particularly well. It makes list building boring and way less flexible in my opinion.
It's been 7 years and your old models are still usable. Pretty soon you're going to be like someone with old pewter 2nd edition models decrying 10th edition releases because they invalidate your collection. Average Canadian fossil.
I also think the highly specialized space marine squads should be exclusively Chaos. It's something that sets the two armies apart, rather than being spiky vs. not spiky. Imperial marines are part of a large bureaucracy with 10,000 years of history that has seen innovations and setbacks. Chaos marines have experienced that time frame in the blink of an eye and the Heresy was just a few weeks or months ago. They're still using the same tech and tactics they had when they were organized into legions. Loyal primarchs further blur the line between the two factions because they're essentially demon princes.
It doesn't help marines are now better specialists than specialist armies, like Eldar.
Yes but, back to the point of the video. "Hate"? Do you really hate it? Why do you feel such a strong word and position are needed for what is supposed to be a recreative hobby?
@@basileerla It's also a recreative hobby that is _very expensive,_ both in terms of time and money. And when your time and money can be potentially invalidated due to corporate decisions people get _very angry._
@@joshwenn989 You don't have to play the latest edition / codex, you can play the old ones.
You can use your old marine models as Primaris marines, you don't need to buy the new ones.
The time and effort you have spent on the hobby is in no way "invalidated"
People should be reminded of this, not told to "get angry"
The Custodes bullshit going on shows how timely this is.
So true
Wait for the return of the Slann, another faction getting introduced or maybe the Female Space Marines.
@@Dracobyte Slann would be funky. Just grab your mates leftover lizardman models and give a third of them lasguns.
Fighting weird minor groups is fun in smaller scale games like Inquisitor, Dark Heresy and Necromunda. Then you can play and beat up all the little groups that wouldn't make it into a full army. Space vampires, chaos orks and other nonsense.
@@DracobyteLizardfolk in 40k would be pretty sick ngl
@@Dracobyte wdym, both of those would be awesome
I hope everyone watches this after they find out GW just mentioned a female Custodes.
I am!
As someone who really likes not just AoS, but Stormcast Eternals, I feel this. I've felt on the end of this ragebait cycle, talking to people who insist that AoS and Stormcast are the absolute worse while not actually knowing much about them.
Love the video too, it's gotten me to reassess how I view Warhammer. I've been dissatisfied with the Horus Heresy and the Imperium vs Chaos narrative in 40k, and now I'm starting to realise that it is kinda just valid to check out of those instead of maintaining a hate boner. GW can keep publishing Imperium-centric books and pushing an Imperium-centric viewpoint onto 40k, but I can just retreat to my little corner of 40k in my head and ignore all that. Probably a lot healthier than getting angry about it.
GW recently announced they are dropping the entire range of Storm Cast Eternals miniatures.
@@JesusProtects OG Stormcast from 1e, and Sacrosanct from 2e, are being dropped. Anything from 3e, along with Vanguard and Extremis from 1e, are being kept, and added to in 4e. It's a lot to get dropped and people I know are angry about it, but it ain't the end of the world.
@@tombouric I totally agree, the Stormcast are garbage and lack a lot of the usual GW creativity. The same as the Votann. However I also touch grass and realise it does not impact me in any way shape or form. It's funny because I have quite a contrarian personality/mindset, so the amount of videos hating on the Stormcast and the type of people making them made me read the lore and realise they're not actually 'that bad' - still not my cup of tea at all and I won't miss them when they're gone.
@@JesusProtects Only the oldest minis (even though some of those are actually at best 6 years old)
@@dirckthedork-knight1201and with a good friend (group) you can still play old models, or proxy them as something else.
"The Lore was telling us, that they no longer mattered, that they weren't important, that they were going to die and be forgotten"
For the most popular lorehammer channel on the planet, he seems to completely forget what the central theme of 40k is...
Ian my guy, this video is exactly why I keep coming back to see your next video. you say things as they are, of course through the filter of your own view of them. as a youngish man, I'm quite fond of your content. really looking forward to what you plan to upload next. also, that ending was awesome.
I, for one, am disappointed with the lack of latex catsuit.
As a journalist, I feel like the rest of the world is catching up to what has degraded our business for the last 20 years or so. This is a wonderful distillation of the psychological problems at hand in my business too. Fine work Ian! Thank you.
Ok Ian, you were already my favourite warhammer content creator but this video has massively increased my respect for you. Intelligent, nuanced and proportional discourse on the internet? Not assuming that your preferences for a thing are 'correct' and that everyone who disagrees with you isn't worthy of respect? Linking the dynamics of the internet with wider societal/political trends to understand events? Absolutely love it ❤
Absolutely. My respect for Ian has only increased with time. He's so down-to-earth and rational, without confusing fanon with canon etc
You’ve won me over with your voice of reason. God I wish the internet was more like you
Ian, i just want to come out now and say thank you.
Amazing content from you is a given. But your acute insights into social issues and thier intersections with the hobby are so, so appreciated.
As a disabled queer person it is so validating to hear you speak. From Custodes to Primaris to Issue X one can always count on you to use your platform ethically and compassionately.
Your my absolute favorite. Such high quality content. Thanks again.
Great video, thanks for making it! Side note, phew, I didn't see you scroll past any of mine ;-)
Avoided! Yeah, I was a little worried about what might pop up when I typed 'Old World Fail' or something into TH-cam!
Now I want to see Brent *attempt* rage bait. I don't think he's capable of it.
The collab we all need in this world
Nice to see you here, Goober!
This is stellar work Ian, some of your best! Your discussion on fandom as a whole can be applied all over, and really helps me understand why so many communities (especially gaming IMO) feel so much more toxic of late. Nicely done!
Oof, that was weird. I was about halfway through when the Fire Natio... I mean, the video suddenly got re-uploaded with a new name.
Sorry! That version had some weird audio going on and I made the wrong one live! Never have more than one draft!
@@ArbitorIan Thank you for the response! Also, thank you for your comment on Mr. Bones, I was wondering why he appeared in the thumbnail with those other two :D
@@ArbitorIan Pretty sure the deleted one also has a really odd cut at the near end of the vid too. Glad to see it re-uploaded and improved.
Ian is trying to hide the fact he challenged Weshammer and Majorkill to a punchup outside the pub next week.
@@fiftyv2.076 I heard that Ian and Peachy were too busy re-enacting the Warhammer World Car Park Massacre.
Ian dropped this, and literally less than a week later, there's another community controversy (over something so miniscule it's crazy)
Another consequence of fandoms taking on media as their identity is that they pretty quickly begin to see themselves as the stewards or even true owners of the IP. Seeing how fans will flip from veneration to straight up telling the creators of their favorite IP that they don't understand their own work is pretty wild, and adds to the general rage-bait atmosphere.
Great video! I feel like this explains why gamer fandoms tend to be so hostile and toxic as well.
I don't like when that object is a person, like how kpop fans will act out if their fandom-person acts outside expectation. And how the core of korean kpop fans can't understand that they are a small group on the world stage.
One thing some people seem to forget is that you can make up your own lore. You want your guys all being firstborns in new armor? You want your necrons still be enslaved by their gods?
Just do it, nobody is stopping you. And if you want to play with old models, just find someone who appreciates it.
I really like seeing unique armies and ideas and i'm sure other do so too.
I've gone down the route of these are what space marines are. A squad of Primaris for me has a Sgt, a special weapon, a heavy weapon and 7 bolter dudes
Yup!
I remember the newcrons/oldcrons. The necrons got a lot closer to tomb kings. The tomb kings were all mad, larger than life court personalities wielding their hordes as extensions of weirdo personal feuds and stagnated court culture.
Dawn of War 1 got out when there was only oldcrons. And they weren't all that fun to play yourself. You could slowly plod forward on foot into medium range and start blasting. It was a lot of plodding. It could be cool to be on the receiving end but not when you're the one doing the plodding.
I've toyed around with the headcanon that the Imperium was irrevocably split in two when the Great Rift tore the galaxy in half. Guilliman was never found/awakened (I don't like the concept of bringing Primarchs back) and the Mechanicus suppressed Cawl's urges to innovate in this version of events. The "Dark Imperium" side, isolated and cut off from Terra and the Astronomican, was relentlessly attacked by its enemies and quickly backed into a relatively small corner of the galaxy.
Facing utter annihilation, it was decided that radical, even heretical changes had to be made, including the gradual reimplementation of scientific and technological advances. This resulted in the creation of Primaris Marines, grav tanks and all of the other "new toys" that Cawl's come up with in the official lore and more (maybe even female Space Marines?). This gave just enough of an edge to not only survive, but to beat back the enemy just enough to establish tenuous contact with the Imperium again. Ironically, the so-called "Dark Imperium" (we'll call them "Neo-Imperium" from here on out) had become more advanced and less backward than their counterparts on the other side of the Great Rift. This was enough for them to be branded as heretics and traitors by the High Lords and, rather than being welcomed back, the Neo-Imperium now finds itself at war with the very people they initially sought to rejoin.
Boom, there you go. Not only has the story and setting advanced in new and interesting ways (at least I think so), but GW could have double dipped by making Primaris Marines their own faction while letting "Oldmarines" fans keep their old minis.
I agree and I’ve ran into people saying, oh it’s not for the fans it’s for the developers 🤓 I didn’t know they had a fetish for dickriding people who don’t care about them
I have been sick of seeing all the hate videos for the hobby I use to get away from the real world, I get that it gets more views for those content creators but just ruins the hobby for me in my own opinion. Im happy to see someone call this out.
Had a genuinely thoughtful time listening in the car. What a lovely video. Covered a lot of things to sit back and consider of oneself, and a very fair analysis of remembering that content creators arent' your buddies. I remember TotalBiscuit (RIP the legend) always stressing it, and that was BEFORE the boom time of influencers. I love that you directly mention the way that "hate" outside of incidental casual word use only emerges from something outside of the actual matter itself. The only true disagreement I'd have is on FOMO, which I feel it a toxic practice that preys on the compulsive and often neurodivergent, and I highly recommend Jim Sterling's video on why FOMO/RNG is such a dangerous thing and why "you can always not buy it" isn't really much of a defence for vulnerable people. Excellent stuff, Ian, always appreciate your calm and thoughtful views.
I just want to say that you're my favorite 40k ruber since your so calm informative and passionate intressting and most importantly humble. You're the type of person people can aspire to be, so please keep continue showcasing these beatiful qualities. :)
20:18 thats one thing i hate about starwars always seeing same people in an entire galaxy
I think this whole Primaris argument, and let me make it clear I don’t like them models lore and everything about them, comes down to what GW is as a company. GW claims to be a model company that also makes games you can play with their models. However, at least at the stores I used to go to, the sales pitch was here is this cool world with loads of lore and a cool game, oh and you can buy all these models as well. So when GW suddenly changed everything the whiplash was more extreme than D&D or MTG, which has always been clear game first lore second.
It probably didn’t help that people like me, who legitimately don’t like the redesign, had to accept that well no more 40k Space Marines for me, so off to Hersey. Wait you upscaled the Marines here and they look great? Why didn’t you just do that in 40k? And then they started releasing new Primaris that basically look like upscaled classic models, which really feels like GW wanting to have it both ways. Of course that makes sense GW is a company that exists to make money, but it really leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Amen!
I bought my 1st 40K minis in 2001 and they were Space Marines. I never realized that they were squat and dumpy looking until the Primaris line dropped in 2017. I love the new sculpts ( not all of them mind you, but most of them) from an aesthetic standpoint. The lore is where GW lost its way a bit. It was simply ridiculous. So Cawl and Guilliman come up with a new updated version of genetically engineered super soldiers that are about a foot taller than the first born marines, but otherwise exactly the same. For a brief time in 8th edition Primaris marines had 2 wounds and mini marines had 1, but that was soon after changed and the minis got a 2nd wound. It was a lame, awkward go between. They weren’t faster (both move 6”) tougher (toughness 4) stronger (strength 4) or more accurate (both hit on 3s). Now 2 editions later the word Primaris has been all but eliminated from the setting. They are simply Space Marines as they should have been all along.
Ian unloaded a with a full social discourse! Very interesting to listen to. Side note - I don't reckon there would be half as much complaining about FOMO and limited releases, if there wasn't the endemic scalping issue. You can't really mention one without the other
Yeah, not sure how you solve that though
My reason for hating the Primaris marines was it signaled the end of 7th edition, to this day I think was the best edition Games Workshop with so much variety in ways you could play your armies, I stopped playing 40K when 8th came out and switched exclusively to 30K afterwards.
On a lore aspect I think that the Primaris marines kinda ruined the individuality of the different chapters by getting rid of their genetic defects. The black rage, red thirst, wulfen, make those chapters unique. What makes a great hero isn’t the fact that he’s perfect it’s his inherent flaws that he finds a way to overcome.
I find it pretty funny that for 40k GW tries to slowly introduce a new product line in without completely nuking people’s collections and people get upset. They learned from that lesson for AoS and just say up front, we are changing these models for new ones, and people are still upset. It’s one of those things where we hear a huge uproar from the squeakiest wheels which are mostly in the minority anyway.
I also find it really weird peeps immediately discard legends rules because can't be played in a tournament...
Most of the stormcast is just getting updated and you can still use your old ones (if a tournament squig list can have old metal squigs why can't I just use pre updated stormcast) and the others still perfectly fine to use in a casual game (and heck if it's to weak or to strong do some homebrew ^^)
I did get a bit frustrated with boc as they will still make them for old world so only legends rules for them in aos felt dumb while they could just sell the box with 2 base types or peeps gotta buy some extra bases, but ow well I don't have the army and if I did legend rules it would have been ^^
I really like your TH-cam channel. Your comments are always in a calm, respectful tone and you don't bash Warhammer, even if you don't like the creations.
As far as the design goals are concerned, I think you're absolutely right. Having the new Spaces Marines and Primaris helped to win over hobbyists, who saw the change from the old range to the new one as important and pleasing.
I came across your video again today when GW announced the Sanguinor and the Sanguinary Guard. While the Primaris vibe works for me with the Guard, the Sanguinor is really exactly the same, just scaled up.
One of the points you didn't mention is that the more neutral Primaris make it easier to kitbash. For veterans of the hobby, it's a wonderful playground, with or without green stuff.
Thanks for your videos, I recommend them in my Warhammer commu as they're really great!
God, this video was excellently timed with all the flame wars going on with female Custodes. It's been exhausting seeing the community treat an innocuous retcon like Big Brother decreeing that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
I don't know what the custodes do all day on the board. I remember when the grey knights were out and my mates who play competitively described it as the new meta. Personally I don't like adding mechanics that just add something new and stronger. But then I would probably start removing unit after unit instead, or replacing every single hero character with generic heroes.
Youre a r..... how can.you not see the pattern? No critical thinking probably , it always starts with a "small" thing and look how many franchises are ruined
@@SusCalvinmeta in warhammer is very contrived. Custodes have fluctuated significantly in rankings. If anything, the Tau have dominated the tier lists the longest of any faction, but not by too large of a margin.
Ian, I've subscribed since the start. I very much like your content.
But this video...
This video is sublime. It is your masterpiece. Well done. Bloody, well done.
Cheers. Ta ta.
ufff a bunch of friends are 3D printers and the "GW must fear us" mentality is their identity
Oof. I feel for you.
I'm so sick of comments about 3D printing 😄
Like fine, do it then but do it quietly 😅
3D PRINTER GO BRRRR 3D PRINTER GO BRRRR ARE YOU SCARED YET JAMES WORKSHOP
They aren't wrong.
Funny, I liked 'Space Marine Range Refresh v1' and didn't think your reasoning why it wouldn't work was very good at all. Pretty sure totally replacing the firstborn messes up more armies than just bringing out upscaled models. And yeah, you can just replace the kits outright, they do that now.
How dare this man be so sensible and examine the issue with a variety of lenses and from different perspectives?
I do wish that I could see more video creators taking this approach when analyzing subjects like the ones you covered here,upon others. Hats off mr.Ian
I love 40K. Ive spent at this point likely months or years of my life painting or reading or listening to audiobooks or playing video games or watching videos or god knows what else in the setting. I could probably give a three day lecture series on lore topics on demand.
But then i realize i care like 1% as much as some folks seem to. People gotta calm down. Go look at a lake or something. See that theres other stuff in life.
Primaris are cool. Its all fine. Relax and play with your toys.
This. I mean, god knows how much time I've spent on this. I have a bloody TH-cam channel where I talk about it weekly. And when things change I'm just not that bothered. It's not IMPORTANT important.
And then I look around and everyone is losing their minds!
Fucken hell Ian, watching this video took you from “cool bloke I listen to occasionally to hear about the Horus heresy” to “someone whose opinion and analysis I greatly respect”. Really thoughtful discussion of the topic!
I feel this video should be a '101' course for people in all fan base communities. Be careful of manipulated hate.
I both like and dislike (not hate) the Primaris.
Like: The true-scale size; How marines were always supposed to be sized. Well done GW.
Dislike: Removing all the different weapon options, which made the miniatures more interesting to look at. All the creative energy redirected into explaining Primaris as a new type of marine.
Still love marines though. Im one of the few that hope they'll eventually release a primaris scale Tactical Squad (with Leader & Special/Heavy). Give 'em the new primaris weapon options if you want, so long as there's still options to make. The 'alt' weapons dont even need to have rules if you want to avoid rules/gameplay bloat.
If they don't - meh. I'll just make 'em myself. Chill vibes man.
I kind of like the old, less demigod-y marines. The ones who were T4 S4 W1 blokes in 3+ powered armour and no more. If trooper Joebert fires a lasgun and strips a Wound, a marine becomes a casualty just like that.
Model design has crept upwards slowly. A beakie marine next to a modern non-primaris marine looks awkward. There was a lot more technical limitations that do not exist today. A guardsman from then also looks like weirdo croucher next to modern ones.
The thing that fascinates me with many WH40k fans is often just how... literally they take things, or how they take things at face value.
Like, did anyone really think that the Emperor single-handedly created the Astartes? Yes, it's often presented that way, but there's a thing about these narratives: they're just that, narratives. History is full of these "great men" narratives, but Napoleon didn’t conquer eruope by himself. The Wright brothers didn't make their first flying machine out of spontaneous inspiration. One man didn't invent, create, and manufacture the atom bomb. The reality is that for every name in a history book, there are thousands left out and unremembered. 40k is a setting built on the ideas of redaction, contradiction, and other tools to make the minutae unreliable.
The Aribitbor Ian/Philosophy Tube crossover is something I'd never thought about before, and now, desparately want...
Yeah me too.
I’m guessing the larger base/models were to make backward compatibility harder since there were so many old models out there. The same reason legions imperialis isn’t the same scale as epic.
While I mostly agree with you, I would also say we have a similar problem from the GW apologist side. The idea that any complaint is wrong and unwelcome and that you should be happy to just give GW all your money and accept all the dirty tricks they use to get said money is every bit as toxic as these incredibly dumb click bait rage videos.
This! But any form of criticism is considered a far right conspiracy theory apparently.
It's probably because my teenage years were during the late 90s and early 00s when the internet was essentially unavailable but I find it mad that people identify with corporate brand as part of their identity.
You see similar discourse in the comments of gaming sites etc. People identify as Xbox or playstation fans as opposed to someone who just owns a particular console.
Take these things as what they are, hobbies and nothing more.
I really appreciate that you are critical of GW when it's called for, but you're not senselessly negative.
Spikeybits is basically ideological cancer.
I still don't like Primaris marines but I keep it to myself lol
Yeah, same. I don't like them but who needs to hear about it from me? If people like them, just let them have fun, I say. I'm having fun with my old stuff.
I remember when grey knights were new and one of my mates described them a bit like the new meta. I'm a little weary of adding a thing that is smply bigger and better.
But then I would probably go through unit catalogues and tear out a third of the models in it. "You don't need a special marine hero character, take this generic marine captain and give 'im a plasma pistol."
There is a reason why you are one of my faves when it comes to 40k. Thoughtful, rational and perfectly willing to just go "meh" when it is whst is called for. Excellent video!
Good timing to release this vid just before female custodes uproar
What I find a bit odd is that GW took the exact opposite approach with Sisters of Battle, where they just released upscaled versions of the old models. All the old stuff is still playable, though I did have to add a couple of extra heavy bolters to my tanks. I ended up replacing all my old metal Sisters simply because the new ones were better (and lighter!)
My personal issue with Primaris is that they've turned Marines from an army that was very simple to play, and play against, to one that is horribly complicated and slow. A Land Raider has three guns (maybe 4, if you add a Storm Bolter). A Repulsor has what, 8? It used to be a Marine with a Bolter was a Marine with a Bolter, now there's at least five different versions with different rules, saves and profiles. It makes them very annoying to play against when you have to keep checking which squad is the Heavy Intercessors, which is the basic Intercessors, and which is Sternguard etc etc.
As for the videos referenced, I'm with Valrak on the merits of 'drama farmer llamas'- I have better things to do with my time!
On the RPG side of the house our hands aren't particularly clean. We spend our time arguing about which edition is best
It's second! Not sure which game we're talking about though...
@@henryfleischer404 Second editions are a good shout.
1) It's a sign the game was good/popular enough for a second run.
2) I own a lot of crap that was clearly not properly play tested and has weird rule problems. Yay fixes?
C) Game designers often have no idea what the words layout, TOC, index or structure mean. I'm sure it's great when the designer is running the game and doesn't need to look anything up but it's not useful when the book tells you to flip to page XX because they didn't go back and change it before publishing.
16:14 cries in warp spider
Great analysis as always Ian.
I absolutely LONG for a time when the bubble bursts and the rage/click bait grift becomes no longer tenable and we can return to properly researched, balanced, professional quality content.
@arbitorian can you make a video about the female custodean? Seems like that subject could use some perspective as well. Thanks for everything.
Yup!
I can't believe one of the best videos I've seen about media literacy and self-identification with a hobby came from a 40k loretuber. But if it was going to be from one, of course it would be from you. Thanks, Ian! Keep up the good work! 😁
It was about money. I don't really care and haven't had the time to collect/paint/play for a long time, but money is clearly the main reason. They could easily have just updated the look of space marines and said they were wearing a new mark of armour. But then people might not have bought them in the numbers that they did. Most people that play 40k are space marine players, by making a NEW type of space marine everyone who plays the faction has to update their entire army. Most people who played the game now had to spend loads of money. Saying this is okay in lore is just reaching. In 20 years will we see space marine space marine space marines?
Yeah, I'm not really mad about it but I do think it highlights why tying your wargaming to one company is a bad idea for players.
Yeah. And with the way way things are going, we might need a new space marine range in 5 years… the Primaris range is already more bloated than the firstborn ever were.
The very first army I ever collected were the victims of a range refresh. I had built up a Lizardmen army back in 5th edition, the first one the faction ever had, and then the very next edition the whole range got a refresh and none of the new models looked right next to my old ones (lol, Old Ones). Also the army book declared that Lizardmen are all blue now, for some reason.
The point is, that happened when I was 14 and I STILL handled it more maturely than some of these grown adults who are still complaining about Primaris Marines to this day!
My second army was planned to be Squats, and I called up Mail Order to try to order them, and only managed to get some of the last squat bikers they had in stock. I was very disappointed, but yeah, I got over it and eventually many years later got a bunch of Mantic Forgefathers to scratch the itch. Weirdly, the Votaan do nothing for me there.
Ayyy, Good Video!
I agree with a good chunk of your points throughout the video, perpetuating toxic fandom-based traits is never a good thing.
Keep up the good work!
I agree that fan reaction can be greatly overblown, but it is genuinely frustrating for a corporation to sell you a product, then, relatively quickly, discontinue the primary means by which you can utilize that product. Still, it's definitely incorrect to identify enough with your army toys that you get more angry than frustrated at this prospect; the appropriate response is just to recognize that you shouldn't invest more time, effort, and money than you're prepared to lose to these sorts of shenanigans in the hobby.
Yeah, I think a lot of the stuff online is people being performative to some extent. It's fine to be annoyed and it's no big deal if you go off about it online. But then, you modify your behaviour and give that corpo less of your money, because they are making you unhappy.
My revelation to stop being fodder for rageTube content creators is to stop being a fan, of anything really. I like things, I enjoy things, I just try not to be emotionally invested in, as you say, a product. It also helps to virtually retire the use of the word "hate", reserve it for things actually matter, not just everything that irks you.
The way that a lot of content creators depend on a self-perpetuating cycle of *hype/hate/told you so* (very prominent in the MMO space) is so transparently shallow. The saddest part is that they are fulfilling consumer demands for drama cOnTEnt, arguably manufactured demand, but the culture is baked in now.
Anyhow, enjoy your videos, they are chill.
I’m one of the people who would have been totally fine with GW going “here’s the new scale, new armor, this is what the models look like now, it’s a new armor mk, don’t worry about it”
Great video,loved it, now I need PhilosophyTube to do a video on warhammer faction ideologies
And there we go. That's the collaboration idea!
The nod to Philosophy Tube is so great. To the point, great deep dive into the content creation culture and overly internalized idea of "community / identity". In the words of Ilya Bryzagalov "It's only game. Why you have to be mad?"
Though I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, I think you also exhibit a heavy underlying dismissive tone. Yes, Games Workshop is just a company selling model toys and accompanying merchandise, but that could be said of anything. Sports teams are just adults playing games and selling tickets to their shows. Music artists are just selling music. If they change a rule in soccer that fundamentally changes the game, it would be easy as a non-soccer fan to just say 'get over it. it's just a game'. People don't want to see the things they like being fundamentally changed to their core, which Primaris did. Nearly every 40k book starts with the words "Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding..." followed by a change where the Imperium adopts a significant amount of progress in their genetics, weapons, equipment, armor, etc. after apparently relearning how to do them. On top of this, as you point out, a fan of 40k has likely spend an insane amount of money, time, and effort into buying, building, reading, painting, and playing, and so a change that makes whatever has been spent in time and money moot, is going to be met with...hate.
Hearing Arbitor Ian name-drop Philosophy Tube was a surprise, but makes total sense
Dont forget the Monetary commitment many people make. Justifying their purchases by saying its who I am. That pile of shame constantly nagging at them but people seeing past it because they are so committed to their lifestyle choice. When that over indulgent spending is then seen as being wasted because GW eliminates their part of the hobby, a petson can feel quite helpless, used, and insignificant. That's worth something. And some people take drastic measures to ease that pain and feeling of betrayal.
The last part of this video seriously needs to be taught in schools. Its important for everyone to realise that being a fan of something shouldnt make you feel offended when that thing changes
I sort of agree with the general point that people take Warhammer too seriously, but I think you're forgetting that it's a huge investment of both money and time for majority of its participants. In that context, it makes more sense to me why people would get so pissed when their existing armies are invalidated; that's a huge loss of investment. There's an emotional aspect to it as well, naturally, which is what can get over the top.
Worth noting TheHonestWargamer's kind and humane video about the AoS changes. Rob asked people to give one another space to feel their feelings, and stressed that most people would happily accept proxying in most games. It was nice.
I'm so happy you made this video. Thank you. I'm brand new to the hobby, and to get caught up on lore (300+ novels!?) I naturally turned to TH-cam. The negativity some folks bring to a hobby is too much for me. Just more of the sort of manufactured outrage (gotta thank you for teaching me the term 'rage faming,' btw) that I really don't enjoy watching. As for which sort of lore video I do enjoy, well, I'll just say that your channel is the only one I subscribed to. Love the channel, and thanks for not just giving into the lure of rage farming!
Welcome to the hobby! In my experience, an overwhelming majority of other people who enjoy and partake in Warhammer are people like ArbitorIan. Namely, chilled out, sensible, empathetic, creative people who want to have as much fun playing with their toys as possible! I hope very much your hobby experience is similar to mine :) Enjoy!
People love to hate anything new, I was in the hobby since lead marines existed. I still love Primaris.. My whole army has been sunset-ted, and well i quit 5 years ago but i feel Primaris were a good idea even if the whole lore of them was done poorly.. Oh and Raven Guard are the coolest! D&D tell that to Gnome and Halfling players..
Glad Ian is around to be the sensible uncle of the online Warhammer space. What a legend!
Can we get a shirt with Ian the sensible Warhammer uncle front and centre please?
Yup!