The Controversial Character That Caused A Smash Civil War
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มี.ค. 2020
- For over a decade, Super Smash Bros. Melee fans have been arguing over the single most controversial technique in the game: Wobbling.
It's an infinite combo exclusive to the Ice Climbers. For some, it's horrible cheese that could destroy the game. For others it's the only thing keeping a weak character in the meta.
The debate around Wobbling rages on, but now that so many tournaments have banned it, are the Ice Climbers doomed?
Written by: Malcolm Abbas (@Smashhh)
Edited by: Andrew Faigal (@Brrrning)
Additional Animations by: Brandon Mistele & Shihab Mian (@shihabmian)
Hosted by: Daniel Rosen (@Daniel_Rosen)
Footage courtesy of:
pastebin.com/JUg4igYD
Music used under license from Associated Production Music LLC (”APM”).
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Fun Fact: Wobbles actually wanted wobbling banned because he thought it was super broken. However, since no one listened to him initially, he decided to use it a bunch during his career to prove how busted it was.
Chaotic good
he also stopped using it near the end of his career and showcased how fucking cool IC's can be if you use chain grabbing vs wobbling
@@walf6978 "YOU CANT ESCAPE, YOU CANT ESCAPE, YOU CANT ECAPE WITH THE BOUNCE?!,- DESTRUUUUCTION!!!"
I never like these type of people
Wobbles is actually a really nice guy so I’m not surprised by this. He’s like the opposite of ChuDat.
The hardest part about wobbling is looking your opponent in the eye afterwards and feeling good about what you've just done.
Not if you're Nintendude or Chudat. They pop off after they win
You scared to taunt boi?
Imagine sponsoring a wobbler. “bad press=good press” I guess. I don’t even know Nintendude and I fucking despise him, which kinda sucks because I know there’s much more hate than just mine out there. Maybe just keep banning wobbling and it’ll save them from it?
Salaryman you don't follow melee because Nintendude is a well respected TO so even if he wobbles he's given us amazing majors. He has been maining Marth for over a year now anyways
I never watched or played smash, but in big tournaments you have Staff and tournament admins right? So you could make a rule that only a specific number of %-hits are allowed while wobbling. So ice climbers would still be viable and the attack would still be very strong, but it wouldnt be a auto win. And if you watch a replay and the ice climber player wobbled for too long he would auto lose that round.
If someone wobbled on me and then smiled in my face we’re scrapping
Facts they eating a right hook
@@ryanlavender6497 lmao
Lol
@super yukie ya, cause I'm sure ice climber mains can kick anyone's ass in real life.
@super yukie we get that your mother is cheating on your father and neither of them love u but damn don't take it out on other people
"It's not fair to ban an entire character"
*Meta knight, bayonneta and brawl ice climbers have entered the chat*
you paraphrase him. meta knight and bayonetta banned was fair. ice climber is not because to execute wobbling you need to grab the opponent. if you get grabbed, they are good, and you just salty. im not even play the game, i can see ice climber is not a speed type. he is slow and short range. wobble is good enough to catch that lightning fox. he is good not the ice climber, player make a play not character.
@@faznanbadri6854 i kinda agree, the thing with brawl icies is that the "hands off wobbling"/universal infinite chaingrab is much, much, MUCH more complex, and it didnt even bust the icies to top 2, MK did it. How? he basiclly force with his power as "the other strongest warrior in the galaxy and SS tier" the TOs to ban every non-flat stage to keep him partially legal, which eventually bust the icies since they are trash if in a match they have to jump.
Why did they ban meta knight
@@Darksencevious OP on steroids
@@faznanbadri6854 Getting a grab as ICs isn't as hard as you think lol. And just because Fox is quick doesn't mean mean he shouldn't ever be grabbed. Fox doesn't have any ranged moves that can kill which means that Fox is forced to approach. Because of this the Ice Climbers player can do things like shield and go for a wiff punish.
ICs are never the ones to catch Fox, it's always Fox messing up an approach and getting punished for it.
With that being said I think Wobbling should be legal but not for the reason you just said.
they just sit there being awkward af while they trickle those damage in
All of them look the exact same, weak people who use wobbling and think they're good
@@kogmawgaming Do you guys really expect competitors to not use everything to their advantage? When it's allowed, I see no way you can fault them for using it. The melee community seems to be full of 4fun players who don't know what a tournament's point is. It's the same breed of people who despise speedrunners who use glitches, because "it's not a real speedrun". You guys have to grow up, ban the technique and move on.
@@MinoTaurusLoL it's not fun to watch, it's boring seeing some someone get a grab for one tiny mistake and then instakilling someone
@@kogmawgaming ban it, and move on, don't hate on people for wanting to win
@@kogmawgaming competition ain't about how fun it is to watch.
"Why does everyone hate wobbling"
Honestly could of just finished the video after the intro of wobble montage lol
ELPAdog Could have*
ELPAdog Could have*
could have
Could have*
*could have
"If you ban wobbling, it makes the Icees irrelevant! Nobody will play them!"
"Good."
I kind of want an icies vs puff meta so melee players finally get with the times and play ultimate.
So what is a sane meta fox and falco?🤣
Amadeous Magarev The Ultimate meta is slowly turning into Sonic’s theme song tbh
icies are kinda sick when you dont wobble
What did they do to you poor child.
"You can't just completely ban a character"
You haven't played very many games competitively have you?
So, is Wobbles already banned in Super smash game?
This is why competitive games should be able to get updates. In order to fix broken mechanics or change them. Nerf the strong and buff the weak.
@@gkarak1996 there's no way Nintendo is ever going to make a patched version of Melee even though the melee scene is still going strong
@@jjrambles683 i didn't say it for melee specifically. I meant it in general.
Fighting games almost never ban characters. Ever.
Jesus I'm 20 seconds in and it sounds like a goddamn horror movie 😂
Almost shit myself
Smash is a horror movie.
You can see the tilt
Horror movie tralier
LOL TRUE
Mike Haze made a rap about ice climbers. It went like this: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH"
CLASSIC LMFAO.
That was with brawl chain grab but one of the best Mike haze moments for sure
“Their either gonna quit or change characters” I mean yeah Lol
Thank god
😂
Good. Keep the IC players to the ones that actually like them, not a tryhard exploiting the hell out of a single broken mechanic because they suck at the game
@Dhar_C
If a character is bad, they will stop playing them because everything they now do with the character is inherently worthless.
Icies mains: I’m nothing without wobbling
The community: If you’re nothing without wobbling then you shouldn’t have it
More like, half the community. lol
Wobbles to IC mains:
@@mathunit1 half the top players. the vast majority of spectators and low-mid level players were in agreement that wobbling should be banned.
Me: Without wobbling, it's worth it
I've never done a successful wobble in my career as an icies main. I just smack them around till they die lol.
Correction: Wobbles went through winners to Grand Finals. It was actually Mang0 who was sent to losers by Wobbles and then Mang0 ended up resetting the bracket and in Grands and winning the whole thing over Wobbles. Just saying for anyone who's new to that story.
@@tcideh4929 It is best of 5. Just loser have to win two set of best of 5s to win and it does make sense.
@@tcideh4929 oh that i forgot about that. I think it was like that because of some timing issues. I don't know the entire story so imma head out.
THE GOAT
🐐
Optimal Ice Climbers without wobbling are fuckin sick tho, so I have no complaints if it gets banned
You're not gonna see them without it, bub. They're gonna get fucked by all the floaties of the world. There are no sick combos in ICs Puff. And like Chu said, most ICs are gonna quit or switch characters. If Puffs can play neutral the way they do, ICs should be able to punish the way they can
They would be against fastfallers and sheik, but they would be totally useless against peach and puff like they already are
Right? Wobbling is so boring to watch, but then ANY other de-sync combo with Icies is just so fun to watch
@@benjaminparker5044 Yeah but you wont get very far into tournaments to do many of said combos because they don't work on half the cast.
The irony here is the counterplay and key to not getting wobbled also bets all the de-sync combos. Its just SDI-ing.
You won’t get to see any
true infinite combos in smash whether its wobbling in melee, chain grabs in brawl, etc. should not be allowed.
What about fd chaingrabs?
Mega Man's metal blade footstool infinite in Smash 4 was extremely hard to pull off, and looked hype AF. Why would you ban that?
Had Diddy's smash Ultimate banana infinite not been patched out, the same applies to him. On top of that, he needs a platform to do it.
The only thing close to an infinite smash has left is Luigi's infinite combo, but that one isn't very hard to escape from.
IMO Infinite combo's are fine to have in a game, so long as they require some actual effort to pull off. Unlike wobbling, which is literally spamming one button in a particular rhythm.
Lol, imagine if Little Mac had an infinite combo that was easy to pull off; he’d be top tier and every person maining him will say he needs it and it will destroy his meta game.
Tbh, yeah. Mac is literally garbage in every other aspect. The only reason I wouldn't want an easy infinite in ultimate, is you know how cancer online would be lol
@@beybl7869 only online?
@@beybl7869 wut? Mac is good in literally everything but aerials and recovery. If you dominate the stage, counter your opponent, and make them engage you killing with mac is easy.
Mac was designed for walk-off stages anyway, but even still he doesnt need an infinite to be viable
@@applchu Did you REALLY need to debate an 8 month old post? Lmao.
But, since you asked.
He has a garbage neutral. Since he can't use is aerials as approach options, and has no disjoints or projectiles, he basically has to rush you. Which is super easy to predict, and has way too much counter play. Best he has is run up shield, which every character has. Any character with range kills him in neutral, and any character that cna fight in the air (spoiler, every character minus a couple random ones) invalidate any approach.
His advantage is bad, because he can't edge gaurd or go off stage effectively. He cant juggle either. His best advantage option is 2 frame down smash, which is hard to hit, and even if it wasn't, most characters can mix up their recoveries to avoid it.
Most characters can just shield against mac without being all that scared his only counter play against it is down angled f-smash (which is reactable, just spot dodge), or grab. Which, if max grabs you, you don't care because this throws are ass. The BEST he gets is all low % into up b, which isn't even a true combo on half the cast.
His disadvantage is bad too. Poor recovery, in both distance and mix ups. He can't fight in the air, which leads to being juggled. His best option is counter, which is easy to bait and continue punishing
@@beybl7869 "Stop, he's already dead!"
"This infinite combo is too broken and unfair and there's no way out of it"
*laughs in Marvel vs. Capcom*
Laughs in dark Phoenix
To be fair Capcom actually couldn't patch it because of Disney and the Marvel bullshit
@@Tucanazo69 :,(
@@Tucanazo69 Marvel vs Capcom 2 was before that though
atleast capcom combo requires skill
“Without wobbling they’re irrelevant” because there’s obviously never been characters in any smash game that have been irrelevant because they’re not good or the other characters are better
Icys aren’t even irrelevant without wobbles you just actually have yo be good to use them de synced which most icy mains aren’t since they rely on wobbles
Only character to be irrelevant because of an arbitrary rules
@@tjayk9127 There's some truth to this, because wobbling is actually a big barrier for improvement for a lot of mid-level icies (Wobbles once gave an interview where he described why he stopped wobbling as much--basically because he felt he used it as a crutch and he needed to get better at the game in general before reincorporating wobbling). That being said, there's a lot more to overcoming a wobbling ban than "git good". People always talk about handoffs as a punish on par with wobbling, just more technically demanding.
This just isn't true. In many circumstances, handoffs require a risky read. Because Nana will throw the opponent in a random direction (unless near the edge), that means that handoffs often require guessing where she might send the opponent in order to get the follow-up grab. And that's putting aside just how technical handoffs actually are; I've never seen a single icies player that was able to get a stock off a handoff anywhere near 100% of the time, even at the edge where the handoffs is entirely just reliant on execution. I'm not an icies main so take some of this with a grain of salt, but if even Wobbles and Fly weren't generally able to break into top 8s without wobbling, I really doubt that the character can be competitive without their most consistent kill setup.
@@purpleplusgold Fly Amanita used wobbling? I thought he was the one guy who didn't and broke top 8s on and off.
David 1298 Also that claim is a lie. Icies actually perform better without Wobbling. The people I see saying it are the people trying to keep Wobbling legal
also, imagine being so bad at a game that if they take one cheese away you QUIT THE GAME COMPLETELY
I wouldnt blame someone for quitting the game if they are 1 week in and have no time invested in it and then they get wobbled
@@200_MXP yeah I meant the people that quit because all they do is wobble
Imagine having the character that u put thousands of hours into learning have its best tool banned because a bunch of babies can’t adapt or pick up puff/peach
@@Droober_ wobbling doesn't take thousands of hours to learn lmao. If you're good at ics you have other stuff.
@@Droober_ imagine spending thousands of hours into grinding and learning a punish game only to have it invalidated by someone who spent 10 minutes. You sound dumb asf, if you spend thousands of hours on melee and you quit because you cant do good without wobbling youre garbage and won't be missed in the competitive scene.
That combo where D1 is screaming you can’t escape is honestly one of the coolest melee combos I’ve ever seen. That shit is dope
I can't believe it. they actually made wobbling look cool.
Legend has it
People finished eating Popcorn, took a bath, slept, woke up and the Wobble is still on-going
A tas could make a wobble last a year
Whenever i go, i see this f’n chicken
@@kuroboss hehe but you see him sometimes i see them everyday because i SEARCH FOR THEM why?
Idk i just comment hello there and that's it
I wish this video mentioned Fly Amanita, who was top 30 in 2015 with Ice Climbers despite him almost never wobbling. He also had a fairytale run at Press Start in 2015 placing second place over players like hungrybox, leffen, axe, mew2king and many more top players, but he did it without wobbling.
For some extra info to anyone reading this Fly did it without wobbling because he played a desync heavily playstyle and you need your nana to get back next to you to wobble. Also he supported wobbling being legal, he even refused to go to tournaments that banned wobbling most notably not going to The Big House when he played because wobbling was banned there at the time.
I think Chudat still has the skill to continue playing Icies at a high level, but other mid level icies ARE carried by wobbling.
A lot of ICs can do the hand-offs but why do it when you have a win button
Don't worry guys, our skilled Roy will protect us from wobblers, his skill is so high that he can Jv5 Icies in under 1 second.
YES
"Ban wobbling? Or Keep it illegal?"
Uhhh think there was an error here
Im pretty sure he said keep it legal
@@sewonjeon163 That wouldn't make it anymore correct. Wobbling has been banned for a while now
instated a damage limit.
dq anyone too far over it
@@glancing5714 Wobbling isn't banned in all places, even though the Smash World Tour says it's banned in their rules, the qualifying tourneys don't have to have it banned. The rules for the SWT are for the final tourney.
Nah defs no error there 😉
12:20 how to actually play Ice Climbers
I saw it and I was like holy shit man, that right there was wobbling that's acceptable imo, but the other clips were pure cancer
I actually enjoyed that clip. Cause it was more then spamming a at 200 bpm.
I think banning wobbling is OK , but chain grabs like Wobbles did isn’t against the rule
I haven’t even fucked with smash for years, but that actually got me hype
@@malcolmkyeremeh5444 That's not wobbling, is hands off, a different tecnique who is harder and gives a bit less reward, specially against light characters, but legal and fun to watch.
honestly it seems real simple to fix this dilemma
don't ban wobbling, but ban going over a certain amount of damage from wobbling, say you only get to do +50% damage or you're not allowed to do it after 90%, I'm sure there's a sweetspot where the move becomes fair
Wobbling is literally the reason I stopped going to locals and competing in tournament for a time. Glad it's gone!
Now we have rollback online
8f that caused you to quit you either have a lot it ICs players or get frustrated too easily. Getting frustrated is fine but dont let one thing beat you up, of you do that you've just proved you can't do anything, but you know your more than that so why give up?
@@illford6921 I came back to Melee after a time. I recently competed at SWT LCQ and tied for 97th.
Nvm
Wobbling should never been legal for as long as it has been. I feel like IC mains would be doing really impressive hand-off combos these days if they didn't all just default to the simple and sure wobble combo.
Sushi Camejo handoffs are rng outside of the area really really close to ledge
had wobbling been banned there would be almost no IC mains so it wouldnt matter
The icies handoffs don't work consistently.
Its simple, there are bad characters in all fighting games, but infinite combos are not balanced in any way shape or form, if getting one grab is all you have to do to get a kill its not a move that should be legal.
Agreed, that's pretty much all there is to it. The very idea that there is even a debate on the matter is ludicrous.
someone doesn't play melee at a competitive level
Jordan Pacheco are infinite combos balanced? Smartass
@@jfp521 didnt know you needed to play competitive melee to have a brain.
Saying that infinites are not ever balanced is just false. There are infinites that are extremely difficult to pull of in ultimate and almost never lead a full stocks worth of damage, especially in tournament. Mkleo has used joker infinites and Marss got upset by a Diddy player both pulling off extremely technical moves that are super cool to watch. Look up Diddy Kong's infinite vs marss.
Gotta love how the guy explaining wobbling got it wrong. Popo (the ice climber you control) just grabs you and hits you while Nana hits you after your hit and continues till your dead. This can be done in doubles with characters who have multi jabs that are extremly fast. One person plays any character and then grab your oppenent then the person playing pikachu or young link jab the opponent. They will be stuck in your grab.
"Oh, the Climbers need wobbling to be effective! We can't let them dip below S tier!"
So, should every D and F tier character be given a super easy 0-death combo then?
ICs were never considered S Tier but I can see why you made that mistake
correction: ice climbers need wobbling to be a mid tier
@@ingeneralgaming7131 they were at some point, in the bottom. And that S tier had like 8 characters, because it wasn't about the best characters but the most viable in the list
I'm not really into smash but i've seen this before and always thought it was bs. It's pretty unfair and just looking at this dude's face pisses me off lol 4:10
Just sitting there, no emotion, no feeling like he's doing a great thing just a blank stare as: "This is my only hope of winning and it's broken as fuck"
He has the good ol mouth breather look.
Don’t bash on my guy Bananas :(
Didn’t know Ricky Berwick played melee
@@Brickguy345 I hope he gets turned into bananas
How is that even legal in tournaments?
Because even with Wobbling good player have learned to beat ice climbers. That is why you don't see the top scene infected with ice climbers
Well.....the one time they banned it in tournament all the ice climber players were very childish and stalls out every game till time is up. Literal ruined the entire melee tournament
@@hiroshitokumoto2290 They're going to lose viewership on twitch, which is going to hurt the players in terms of winning price money. By banning a technique from ice climbers, you do the game's health more good then bad. If it was banned, you would have a couple of people who mained icies upset, however as of currently, there are far more people that are upset that it's not banned, which are more of a majority compared to icies. This is not to mention that the technique goes against the spirit of the competitiveness to begin with, which is skillful play. I mean shit, if wobbling should stay legal, let's just have the icies grab freeze bug in the competitive scene as well since it's occasionally the same as wobbling, it begin an infinite which locks them on place and allows you to K.O them after racking up enough damage. The melee virgins lacks common sense, I am telling you.
@@devinroi3886 then fucking ban those players? How is that a problem?
@@VezWay007 you cant ban somone for camping thats not how it works
Wobbles is an amazing player without wobbling. Pretty much all other "top" ICs are only being carried by this broken technique.
Nah, Fly couldn't wobble, Faux clearly didn't need wobbling if his best tourney had him not wobble, and whilst not ultra high level Techboy is very good at the game and doesn't wobble. Even then I wouldn't worry about it since half the characters in melee dint get played anyways and ICs is one of them
Casual take.
Why was it even legal wtf?
"I don't see a justification to ban wobbling"
So infinite move in a fighting game is not enough, eh?
Nope. That alone isn't enough, there are plenty of fighting games where infinites aren't banned themselves, they just usually have a high skill ceiling to perform.
@@EnnuiTheNomad The difference being that wobbling is ridiculously low skill and low effort to perform, where as other infinites in other games actually take more advanced skill and much more effort
@@dantethewanderer4989 I'm aware, I figured that was painfully obvious considering I went out of my way to make a comment in the sentence about skill ceiling ._.
It's also not just the skill ceiling, either, though obviously I agree with you. It's that the character(s) themselves aren't optimal on their own at all, and you still have to put in the work to get to the point of doing those setups
It depends on what game it is how hard the infinite is And a bunch of other stuff but the thing is all of the conditions everyone of them are in the right one to band them
12:18 I don't blame you for the misinformation (as the rest of the clips are labeled correctly), but that first moment was hype because these are hand offs - NOT wobbling. Not only are they WAY harder to input, but its also not standing in one place mashing grab and pummel. Basically, it looks cool, its hard to input, and its not guaranteed. Ice climber players can use these instead of wobbling, which reduces the ban's nerf on the character, but Ice Climber players don't want to put in the effort, which is imo why I support the ban. I'm not calling the Ice climber players bad, but rather that if its not worth putting in the extra effort, just play a higher tier character. But if you wanna win a major with them looking cool you need the dedication that people like Axe and Amsa put in (other players who use mid teir characters)
I'm not afraid to say it.
Ice Climbers players are bad if they rely on wobbling.
Imagine playing half the game and getting the full reward.
@@atari8897 yeah, Axe said a similar thing in his wobbling video: a wobbling ban would mostly hurt Ice Climbers players that specialised in Wobbling and rely on it so much they don't know many other things their character can do. A wobbling ban for me will just make tournaments more fun to watch, especially if players like Chu stick to Ice Climbers and use hype things instead of Wobbling.
@@FranzoOnLine To follow up on that, Axe also hates wobbling because it turns a sick character (that Axe himself knows how to play very well with desyncs and everything) into a campy, grab fishing cheeser.
I 100% agree with everything you’re saying, wobbles was making it interesting and a lot funner to watch his matches by doing hands-off instead of wobbling. Infinite’s in general are extremely frowned upon in fighting games and though some allow it(Marvel vs Capcom) it doesn’t change the fact that it’s inherently broken. Players like Axe optimizes his pikachu to where he’s on the same level as other players playing high tiers. If an ice climber can’t learn hands off which can have similar effect but require higher skill and optimization, then they shouldn’t even be playing the character in such a technical game as melee
PREACH
3:42 no that's not how it works, basically as popo you hit a grab and then you angle the stick down so that Nana is doing a down tilt while popo pummels.
Ok nerd who asked
@@shlirimhyseni4415 hes correcting them and and all you superfans need to learn that your youtubers can make mistakes and be wrong.
@@JaydenT3 dont care didnt ask
yeah youre locked in hitstun essentially because you time the tilt and pummel so that they cant mash out of the grab
@@shlirimhyseni4415 you sure think that the world revolves around you don't you
Wobbling is the equivalent of that one annoying sibling that never leaves you alone
Lol Hungrybox is being very generous when he says "they're not great without wobbling" They're downright trash. The risk/reward is that if nana dies you're boned.
Sean Fuentes yeah and it doesn’t help that nana just jumps off the stage sometimes
Having a character that relies on a inescapable 1 button "combo" that can kill you from 30%, is just non-competetive. The opponent playing against icies has to always deal with it and do more work on evading wobbling than the icies have to work to get a grab. So I don't mind them being banned. Why would I miss a character that is boring to watch, boring to play against, and has boring design that revolves around one broken mechanic.
don't try to reason with Melee scrubs. Everything that isn't Fox = Uncompetitive, boring, bad for the game. Icies are truly unique but I guess spamming drill shine and laser camp is the epitome of excitement :) You know what is actually fucked up. Hitting both Icies shields and therefore missing the L-cancel, thats how people get grabbed.
@@JinTheAceStar you could be the greatest farmer of all time with that level of strawman
JinTheAce
Imagine thinking Melee players only play as Fox. omegalul. you should start selling hats with all that cap.
That game in the background with that chick Alice that changes into a bunny.. never knew they made that into an arcade
Bloody roar....
Really hope there's brand new Bloody roar :
@@geramahar At this rate my OC will bring that sequel...
I love that every argument against banning is that it makes ICs irrelevant, as if that doesnt apply to most of melee's roster
it's not. my argument is:
a technique should only be banned if it's so centralising everyone uses it. not everyone plays ICs and wobbles. therefore it isnt and you should git gud
@@alfiealfie35 thats just saying "dont get hit" especially since most of the playerbase is low to mid level it literally the freest matchup after puff vs spacies
@@Eskiii so your argument is that wobbling is too easy? i dont think that works because i think high/top-level play is what determines if something should be banned in tournanents. my definition is the one MSC uses in the banning video
@@alfiealfie35 it hasn't been banned cause ICs haven't won a really big major tournament. If they had, it would've been banned within the week.
@@Gr33nPhoenix so in theory someone could enter one and guarantee themselves a win?
If a character isn't good without an infinite combo, then they shouldn't be played. No character, no matter how bad they are, should be able to take a free stock due to one easy to hit grab. If you're nothing without wobbling, then you shouldn't have it
*ladies and gentlemen, this is a man spitting straight facts.*
*laughs in handoffs*
It's literally simple don't get grabbed.
I don't understand why people complain, just zone.
@@j.kwonder1669 “Just don’t get grabbed”
I wish it was that easy, my guy.
@@MrVibe-tx4rn My guy you just zone.
The melee community: No you can’t just grab me and wobble me, it’s so unfair, you get an insane reward.
Ice climber players: haha nana and popo go bop bop
*brawl not melee
both games
Larree it started in Melee?
GraviTeaTalks I didn’t know it was in melee I thought it was a brawl exclusive thing
Blake Sanders dude I barely watched the video I had to stop quickly in
“We already told you that Puff vs icies is the most boring thing you could possibly watch”
Sm4sh Sonic vs Bayo: “are we jokes to you?”
Yes they are jokes in terms of being as boring to watch, at least they are fast characters
They are joke compared to these for sure. Smash4 sonic never had one shot kill unlike Puff or ices. Bayo's combo can be DIed and escape. Irrelevant
@@gelo6099 True.
@@aki5876 DI-ing out of bayo is irrelevant because it is super easy to do a follow up to continue the punish for their DI out of the combo. Not to mention that bayonetta is fucking pay to win in smash 4 which is why smash 4 is a fucking garbage game.
Trust me, Icies vs Puff is far worse. Puff can ledge and air stall as long as she wants, then comes back up and kill you with rest. You come into Icies grab radius, you lose a stock instantly.
Melee players get mad at Hbox for grabbing ledge and playing a character other than fox, but somehow can’t decide whether an infinite is bad for the game or not.
that says how much bullshit there is in melee (not that all bullshit is bad)
Idk about fox only tho
people don’t really hate hbox for not playing fox they hate his play style. Rant incoming It’s really fucking annoying when people say DuH MElEe Is JuSt SpACiEs when a fucking solo yoshi and solo pika are in the top 10. Marth and shiek have very strong cases for being better than the spacies why won’t people get it through their heads that melee isn’t just fox and falco dittos. Wizzy and axe won SUPERMAJORS in 2019 but clearly the “ToXiC MeLEe ComUNiTy” Hates hbox for not playing fox. Of the five gods 2 are known for their fox, Mang0 and Armada. Before armada dropped peach there was one fox out of the tippidy top player pool, and mang0 still played falco just as much. Please don’t base your comments on I’m guessing that emplemon video and the melee content on score esports. There are 2 solo fox mains in the top ten, and 5 fox players. Plup only plays fox against hbox so he basically doesn’t count and m2k is writing his book so he shouldn’t affect this too much either. This only leaves 3 foxes out of 10 spots, 30% is pretty low for the so called only character in melee
@@willdg8108 As a viewer who used to play Smash 64 and Melee back in the day for fun (poured insane hours into both and used to post on IGN Smash Boards before Melee was even released, but I was never a pro player), there did seem to be a period (maybe 2013 to 2105) when it seemed like everyone had to at least have a pocket Fox in order to compete. I know I was disappointed when Armada, whose Peach I enjoyed watching, had seemingly become just another Fox player so he could win EVO. Thankfully, the meta seems to have to moved away from the complete 20XX scenario, though Fox is obviously still the overall best character and always will be I suspect. That's why it's odd to see people like Leffen and Armada complain about Puff being too good for having such a supposedly low skill ceiling. Yet no one who sells Hbox short as a skilled player ever gives a credible explanation for why only he has gotten to that highest level with Puff and stayed there for so many years. Because to say that it's because everyone else finds her boring and aren't willing to put the time in (the latter part of this claim seeming to contradict the notion that Puff is easy to do well with; so which is it?) is frankly some of the most self-serving and disingenuous excuse making I've ever seen. If it gets you wins, people will play it. Just like playing boring Chun Li in Street Fighter 3rd Strike. The truth is, as "easy" as Puff is to play, it's obviously not that easy to just pick her up and do well against the multitude of other faster characters out there, especially Fox. So yeah, lame playstyle or not, it comes off as sour grapes and an attempt to discredit Hbox's achievements when the other "gods" and that wannabe Leffen complain so bitterly about Puff and try to claim as Armada did in a video that she's actually the best character in the game. The best character in the game should have more people winning tourneys and consistently placing top three with that character and not just primarily one player who uses that character. There does happen to be character who has in the long run fit that description much better than Puff. It's Fox.
@@megavolt67 in all fairness, most foxes aren't actually winning. Off the top of my head the only foxes that consistently wins is leffen maybe? Most of what you're saying is pretty valid, but what's important to note is that we're not talking melee at a theoretical level, we're talking on a realistic level. The reason hbox stays at the top is because yeah he's really really good, but its also the unbelievable strengths of puff. Puff is one of the best characters in the game, chance she's even the best IN THE CURRENT META, since her patient playstyle really rewards slowing the pace of the game. Also something important is that puff players don't play the same, 2saint specifically plays almost nothing like hbox does. Believe it or not, people do actually find puff boring to play in melee. She's like Yoshi in the fact that she plays nothing like other characters in the game. At its core melee is a game of passion, there's not enough money in melee to play purely for the W without a sponsor. People actually just don't want to play puff, and this doesn't contradict the (she's easy to play) argument either. I'll be the first to say that I think puff is hard, her toolkit only works on her and it's unbelievably hard to beat the current top tiers consistently. But that's every character, puff is just one of the most boring.
This was actually a very high quality video, props to you guys. Very fun to watch.
Good joke
Okay but whoever made this thumbnail needs a raise
0:39 That face makes my heart drop every time
There's nothing terribly wrong with nerfing a character in a fighting game. It happened several times in sm4sh and ultimate, and the players (think void with pichu) simply find a new character to play, adapt, and continue their reign. It's the ultimate test. Is that player really as skilled as their placements show, or are they just gimmicking? Surely players like Wobbles and Chudat have the raw skill to keep their place in the rankings after a wobbling ban, but can the same be said about Nintendude, for example? Probably not. Let's find out. Ban it.
I get this totally, but I personally think its hard to justify in a game you cant directly nerf the OP characters. Fox has been S tier forever, imagine banning shine all of a sudden. I know this is not that extreme but I dont agree with banning something that makes a character viable, especially in a game that's impossible to balance the top tier characters
Nicholas Argiros the thing you’re missing with wobbling is the “skill/reward ratio” aspect of it. People keep bringing up shine as this OP move but fail to realize the technical skill it takes to consistently pull off those combos with Fox and Falco. In contrast wobbling doesn’t take nearly as much skill to pull off and punishes the opponent for making 1 small mistake and simply getting grabbed. It extremely skews the skill/reward ratio. That’s why it needs to be banned. If there was a secret technique in the game what if you rapidly pressed the A button 30 times in 3 secs you auto-win the match (near impossible but doable) and another upon only pressing the A button 2 times in 3 seconds and you auto-win which one do you thing should warrant a banning? Would you think the second one be ok to keep in just because it’s “in the game?”
@@riotron1026 You get wobbled because you can't dodge noob lol
Then buff every other aspect of ICs. Give them their SD remix hitboxes and downtilt and we'll call it even. If not, you're just nerfing the most unique character in the game because you think their strongest technique is boring
@@z42O woah dude is that le epic internet troll no way bro i cant believe you made such a great sacrifice by wasting your last ten braincells on that comment
That’s clearly an exploit that ruins the pacing/flow of the game. Wobbling shouldn’t be a thing.
Tbf Melee is pretty poor overall but just had good tech and some interesting characters. Bowser and Kirby are abominations that can't even get metas because they can't do anything. Nothing is very balanced bylut it's not unbalanced either it's in a weird grey area. Quite frankly of Jiggs gets back to winning everyone will just move to her anyways. Smash players just like to complain, even if it's valid they do it too much.
We had SSB melee in high school. The one guy who always picked Ice climbers for wobbling, we avoided playing with him. We even warned new players about him.
When an ICies wins with wobbling, almost every single time, you don’t feel like they outplayed their opponent or showed that they were the better player. It’s a garbage mechanic that encourages horrible play styles. It should stay gone. Melee will be better for the top players and for the viewers with wobbling banned
@TryZoid I mean on one hand yea it's a free knock out, but on the other it's just part of the game my dude. They should fix it in game, but you can't complain about players using the move. They're just using their characters OP mechanic. I mean people hated Belona when she came out so the idea is fix the game not hate the players.
To be truthful playing Ice climbers is hell to try and control the characters. IDK how people do it. So it someone can get both to grapple then I think they deserve it. You could easily separate the two characters imo. Maybe IDK the way to control both so it may be easier than I think though.
@TryZoid You singled out M2K because it's not a fluke lmao, it's a well-known and consistent flaw in his mental game. There's no fluke involved in worse players beating M2K with ICs, it's a consistent pattern and it's on M2K to fix that.
+E L
@TryZoid m2k literally just has a shitty mentality, dude tries to cheese the matchup instead of just learning to fight the ice climbers with marth or shiek. He'd probably not have problems against ice climbers if he had spent all those years using peach on them playing marth or shiek
I believe that if banning an infinite combo is enough to make you change your main character, then you really don’t have any skill
The problem is that if you nerf the infinite, you nerf the whole character.
"improve my mental game, my punish game... right now Im gonna practice playing smash without wobbling"
You mean practice playing the game?
@Virgil Hardjo Nah its correct. otherwise practicing with items on would be "part of the game" and we would have to unban items.
"I do think you get rewarded way too much, for way too little work." ~Armada
Perfectly describes almost every modern fighting game... XD
LUL, finally. I was waiting an episode about this topic for a while now xD glad to see it come out
thanks for the melee content guys! love to see it!
Now that wobbling is banned I will actually root for Ice Climbers
wobbling is the smash equivalent to playing a game of poker and halfway through taking your opponents cards and shuffling up for solitaire
Video feels incomplete with no mention of Fly Amanita, when he was in the scene an outspoken supporter of wobbling while at the same time a top level ice climber who didn't wobble.
Wobbling was a cool thing when Wobbles discovered it and had a great interest tool with it. The problem is when people started to abuse it more and more, it became too much of a problem. It's a real cheap method on winning, and a low blow on the game. Ice Climbers have viable potential, and they don't need wobbles to show that (Chudat and Wobbles show that), but the more and more the move sucks in, it becomes an ongoing issue.
When Mew2King wants to show emotion he either laughs keeps a strait face or just looks so concerned.
"[the ice climbers players] are gonna quit or they're gonna change characters."
-chu
good god i hope so
Chu wins with Sopo alone what is he talking about
"it's going to kill the ice climbers scene"
Good
Watch fly amenita man, shit's hype
It's adorable that it wasn't fully banned until people started placing with it. Stay classy smash community.
0:31 LOOK AT HIM, HE PRESSING ONE BUTTON.
I'm loving the Smash content, keep it up guys!
Wobbles literally went "it's wobblin' time" and wobbled all over those guys
14:54 happiest opponent I have ever seen at these tournaments..l
Yeah you’re gonna need a planet-sized asterisk next to combo for this one, chief.
Wobbling: *exists*
People who only shit on SS4 Bayonetta: I'm gonna pretend this didn't exist.
If the goal was to have as many viable characters as possible, we'd be calling to ban Shine from Fox and Falco. Having characters be nonviable isnt our concern, its to make a competitive game based on the skill interactions between players. Wobbling undermines that, thus it should be banned. Same as tournaments banned certain Stages and Items.
I don't see the community worrying that "If we ban items, we effectively delete Pichu as a viable character from the game"
Im not even going to go into why banning shine makes absolutely no sense and isnt remotely similar to banning wobbling
This is such a flawed argument lol. You’re acting like ices grab is the same range as Mr Japanese Sword Boi. Plus as been shown by soooooooo many top 8s almost all the top tiers have answers to wobbling, fox and falco can shine to split up the climbers easily picking apart nana from popo. Yoshi and peach box her out with float/doublejump cancel Arials exactly like they would to falcon or Luigi. Puff and marth fuck with icies from range with their massive hitboxes. Icies only really win against shiek and falcon who don’t really have a good answer to grab.
Secondly how is avoiding grab not a “skill interaction” if you’re at 100% and you’re trying to not get up throw up Aired by fox it’s the exact same as not trying to get grabbed by icies, it’s just kill percent against icies is 0% . You’re still using platforms and spot dodges to avoid the grab.
I can tell you commented this after losing your local to a icies
In the words of mang0
“ get off (TH-cam) and go practice”
There are *so many* other characters in Melee you can play who all are either dogshit, good or excellent, so saying „wobbling would mean no one would play Ice Climbers anymore“ means nothing. Just pick literally any of the other characters. Especially if you are one of the people saying „i only picked Ice Climbers because of Wobbling“. Wobbling is a bug that is busted, broken and absolutely bann worthy
Love these history videos! You should explore Mario Kart 64 Choco Mountain speedrunning, it goes way deeper than you'd think.
"Once your in there's no way out"
“Your working horribly! Here, have a raise!”
Imagine if these guys played Marvel 2 or 3. Their minds would explode.
Pasicho the difference is the difficulty and requirements to do an infinite, wobbling comes from a grab and tapping A at a pretty easy rhythm. In marvel 2 all infinite’s come from an opening that is much harder to get and the difficulty in magnito ROM infinite or even the iron man infinite (which isn’t a true infinite as it drops after 59 hits)
@@Shodan130 The end result is the same though. Lose a character vs lose a stock. They act like they lost the game the moment they get wobbled. MVC players don't complain.
@@Pasicho difference is iron man needs a jump HK to start his infinite, not a grab that can be done instantly out of block stun, magnito needs to ROM infinite which is very difficult. the infinite isn't the problem as fox has an infinite in smash with wave shines. it's the ease of access along with the difficulty. and marvel player complain about the exact same thing if it's easy enough to do. or you just gonna forget about how they banned the spiderman infinite in MVCI
@@Shodan130 I'm not talking about the legality or justification of infinites. I'm talking about the mindset behind reacting to infinites. For example, if the smash community was behind the ruleset for UMVC3 they would consider banning TAC infinites due to how random and easy it is to perform. MVC players use broken shit and add it to their game. Like its not surprising after the TAC infinite was found a huge surge of teams added Doom to their team. If the smash community had the same mindset of MVC players there would be an overwhelming amount of ice climbers mains.
There's a reason why never give up is an adage in the FGC and no johns and don't get grabbed are memes in the smash community. Smash players complain about everything.
@@Pasicho except they did with spiderman in MVCI. like i played marvel alot more and way before making the switch to melee. i get what your saying. and yea the smash community do like to cry about alot of things. but they are very different cases. and i don't think that mindset is very prevalent in modern day FGC. hell the smash community dealt with icies for years. much like the FGC with marvel, CVS 2 bison, vanilla SF 4 akuma etc. it's not so much the smash community is crying more. everyone is crying more. tekken players complain about every patch for the smallest reasons while back in the day they were fine with DR devil jin. SF players were fine with chun and yun but will cry nerf at anything in SF 5. tbh if you want my personal take on it i do think wobbling should be somewhat banned while stuff like magnito's rom infinite and TAC infinites are fine imo. the whole never give up thing of taking a games balance on the chin and dealing with it kind of died with the ps4 era of FG's. not saying i'm for complaining and banning but your doing an unfair comparason of the FGC and the smash scene
*Why do people hate Jigglypuff for not "playing the game" where THIS horrible thing is common?*
We hate both lmao what. Barely anybody wants to ban a whole character though.
this is boring to watch, while jigglypuff ledge camping is boring to watch AND incredibly strong
@@plock8572 well other characters are even more boring
I'd rather lose to Jigglypuff then this in a competition. I would at least know that I'd be happy with it. And I'm a Samus/Zero Suit Samus main.
Danggg, dat Bloody Roar in the background. I wished it made it's return, soon.
am i the only one pissed that he's in the studio and cant see his house??
I'm sorry, but if any other fighting game had a character that was awful but had a quick attack that would 1 hit you it would be called busted. I don't even see why this is debated about. It's just straight up broken, even if it isn't overpowered (which it very well might be anyway, I don't play melee).
Because greasy melee players dont want their crutch taken away
That thumbnail is gonna haunt me for life.
6:10 HOW IS THIS EVEN A QUESTION? IT TAKES NO SKILL AND IS LITERALLY JUST A TAKE A FREE STOCK BUTTON.
Do a story on Morrigan/Doom/Vergil and how Chris G’s keep away gameplay killed UMvC3.
Never knew about that. TLDR?
@@reset6292 TLDR - Evil Geniuses Chris G developed and perfected a super keep away projectile strategy, relying on Morrigan/Doom special moves combo. If you managed to take out the out Morrigan/Doom you then had to contended with a super amplified Level 3 X-Factor (increased damage) Vergil who had some of the most dangerous mix ups in the game, guaranteeing quick kills.
Morrigan/Doom/Vergil was a very dominate team in UMvC3. Morrigan had a super that could make a mirrior image of herself, which he would then "spam" he projectile "SOUL FIST" full screen at different angles. This could lead to a ton of chip damage or open you up for a combo if you tried to get close. If you managed to dodge the projectile bullet hell then you had to deal with Dr Doom assist. Doom would hop in launch homing missiles into the sky, these would typically keep Morrigan safe in the event she was hit and in the process of being combo'd. If you killed Morrigan, Doom was very versatile and had easy confirms into TAC infinite that could lead to kills. If you managed to take out the out Morrigan/Doom you then had to contended with a super amplified Level 3 X-Factor (increased damage) Vergil who had some of the most dangerous mix ups in the game. Vergil could summon spinning swords around his body and quickly teleport behind opponents. One hit typically equated to death.
@@reset6292 th-cam.com/video/N24QEXQvsg4/w-d-xo.html
It should be said that Chris G did not invent MorriDoom. It was actually Dieminion who used it first. But this match was the first to really prove how suffocating MorriDoom's full screen pressure really was. You had to be extremely specific in how you approached her while Morrigan had free reign to move as she pleased. All the while you're on a timer since you're constantly taking damage. Even the previous most hated character Dark Phoenix had to respect the MorriDoom shell.
Me:*opens video*
"Theres no hope"
Me:"Yeah...you right"
I’m absolutely blown away at how people can actually try to defend the tactic. There is no way anyone with a functional brain can defend such an unstoppable tactic just to try and keep a character viable. Here’s an idea: change the abilities or buff the character in another way but how the hell could you justify what is one of the cheapest tactics I’ve ever seen in a videogame
Laughs in wall combos
How to win as Fox vs Jigglypuff
Grab
Upthrow
Upair
"Come On"
wobbling should definitely be banned but you can't buff these characters if they're bad, this is a 20 year old game that had never been patched.
The thing is Iceies has some very interesting and cool combos/ mix ups off of grab that make the character look very cool usually shown off by wobbles.
Totally appreciate the BloodyRoar representation 🙌🏼
4:43
jigglypuff mains: *heavy sweating*
smash problems:
2010: Discovered wobbling with ice climbers.
2020: Discovered PK Fire spamming with Ness and Lucas.
Wow there's some Bloody Roar at the machine on Background, I'd like to see a new version of this game...
I wouldn't say that 2013 was early days of a game from 2001
no augmented for the 5 gods but ice is too broken to use. At this point, I can go watch CaptainZack vs. Lima on smash 4 and come back to see ice still grab the shit out of me.
12:29 When you turn up the volume to try and hear what's being said
12:32 When you lean back in your seat at the theater when it does the hard of hearing check
That Bloody Roar arcade in the back though😳 CLASSIC!!!
Okay why would ANYONE want to keep in what is essentially a one-hit move🤦♀️ ESPECIALLY one that just stems from a grab AND takes like two minutes to kill.
You may as well just let Ness use his final smash.
Final smashes doesn't exist in melee, but they might as well allow Jigglypuff's freeze grab glitch, which is pretty much an infinite that allows you to do an infinite and also K.O them. I don't want them to make that legal but they have to be at least consistent with the ruleset, like wtf. This is why I despise the smash community when it comes to making ruleset for competitive play, where there is so many contradictions.
It's because the losers are making the rules to help the losers lol
Wobbling isn’t broken lol
For one, grab isn’t a easy option to get for icies. For one their grab is very short ranged and they are slow, a bad combination to say the least. Two most top tiers have answers to icies mostly lackluster options beside wobble. They are slow, have a horrendous disadvantage state, (when a character is offstage or in a juggle/combo situation) and nana is just fucking stupid. Couple this with moves like frame 1 shine, and peach nair in the game, grab isn’t as easy to land as it seems. Most wobbles are scored off of roll reads, Misinputs, or overextensions on the part of the opponent, all things that are usually punished via normal means like shine, dair for falco or tipper fsmash for marth
There are people who think wobbling should stay in, and then there are those who don’t bite and eat their own toenails. Wobbling is a glitch and it should be banned, or at least limited.
Wobbling is an exploit, just like wavedashing. If you ban wobbling for this reason you should also ban also wavedashing
TF is wavedashing? Is that like when the player seems to be gliding across the stage? That should also be banned. Why don’t they just play Ultimate!
I feel like what they should do is not completely ban it but give them a limit to how many times they can attack or something like that
Nothing has ever made me smash the like button faster than the words "MORE MELEE CONTENT."