this tweet kinda sounds manipulative. predroping pallets, and sitting on gens doesnt make you a non-bully squad. just like going for risky plays doesnt neceserily make you a bully squad. because it's not so much about your gameplay style but rather the attidute and the message you wanna convey. you can completely destroy the killer as a 4 man and then genuinely say something nice in the chat. will you still be a bully? i dont think so.
and yet i guarantee a large portion of the playerbase will say they were bullied in that match even if they were all nice and just simply played the game.
@@ScottJund well yeah that's true. people do that. i sometimes randomly say that i'm being "bullied" by someone even when I'm dominating them. just for memes i guess
I agree that the term “bully squad” is inaccurate and overused, but my main gripe with your point is the idea that it’s all good because the killer won. i play mainly killer and also will take a bully squad over a hyperfocus team any day, but i don’t always enjoy just winning. if i’m playing killer not only to win, i want to have fun. having teams that are trying to create hook deadzones making themselves unhookable is not fun. sure i won, but i don’t enjoy having to slug a survivor who’s in a corner of the map anymore then they’re enjoying getting slugged.
@@ScottJund but that makes winning against a “bully squad” very subjective and that should be taken into account. Sure, you might have fun chilling on stream with people and chatting while downing that survivor repeatedly until death,but not everyone is down to do that in their free time. When you don’t know you’re going against a squad who’s intent is to mess with you, you can end up wasting so much time in a match you aren’t enjoying for before you get fed-up and log off and do something else. This problem is exponentially worse the lower down the skill ladder you go and isn’t healthy to keep people playing.
Thats interesting, I'm the opposite. I'm rather play against the hyperfocus team. Even if I get trounced I learned something about the meta, learned strats good survs use, and got my mmr lowered so I'm more likely to get survs my skill level. A "bully squad" doesnt really teach me anything but the limits of my patience. They aren't trying so I don't really learn anything about the game I'm trying to play. Finally like, the win isn't satisfying because we weren't even playing the same game really. Maybe I'm just odd but a win where my opponent isnt really trying hardly feels like a win at all. Unless we arent trying to win but do the halloween event thats an exception lol.
In my experience, "bullies" in dbd are the kinds of survivors who, when they find out they are better than the killer, take as many opportunities throughout the game as possible to make sure that the killer knows that - Teabagging, clicking even after mediocre plays and overall making the killer question why they are playing. They are the same people who complain that they are vsing a nurse/blight every second match or about slow down perks as if some killers feel as though they have a choice.
@@ScottJund yeah agreed. because of people like this, playing killer for me recently has been a huge rollercoaster and ive grew to despise the killer role, despite being a killer main for about 70% of the time ive played dbd. It's kinda at the point where I feel I have to play nurse or i dont stand a chance. Which is unfortunate because i want to play other killers and/or use more "fun" builds.
Eh. I'd argue that "they are better than killer" isn't even necessary, since sometimes some maps essentially hand feed a win to survivors like cow shed or the game.
@@kolbayada4938 yeah thats kinda what I was getting at with the "mediocre plays", like they will hold W and throw a few pallets down and think they are the shit despite there not being too much the killer could do in a timely manner.
Bully squads aren’t very frequent. Most of the time, as you said, it’s just good players. However, some of those times, you genuinely can tell with ease that they’re trying to piss you off. Flashlight clicking, teabagging every single time they stun you with a pallet, that type of stuff. Body blocking, flashlight saves, that’s just survivors trying to protect their teammate. I agree with one thing: it’s not actual bullying, and I think everyone knows that. “Bully squad” isn’t meant to imply the survivors are actually bullying you. However, they’re trying to get to you (some of them anyway), and even IF you manage to destroy them, it doesn’t mean they weren’t trying to piss you off to begin with. If someone tries to attack you in any way and you clap them back successfully, does that mean they didn’t even try? Of course it doesn’t. I agree with some premises of yours, but not others.
I hope I didn't imply they wouldn't be bully squads. I tried to very carefully choose my words and said "I don't feel like I was bullied if I won", not that they weren't what they were to begin with.
i agree with this. Swarm and his squads USUALLY aren't a bully squad. they are having fun. They aren't being excessively toxic and t-bagging or clicking. HOWEVER some of his videos are of him and his team doing that and being intentionally toxic.
@@ScottJund yeah, I understand. And I also understand your frustration when it comes to people comparing that type of behavior in a video game to a tragic phenomenon that can take people’s lives. I empathize with that. I was just constructively criticizing, as well as praising where needed, your message.
@@noaheaston2147 I haven’t even watched a single Swarm video, it wasn’t necessarily about him, rather about some survivors that are CLEARLY displaying that type of behavior (pun intended).
I've always defined a "bully squad" as a group of players who make it their mission to ensure the person playing killer does not have fun. The kind that set up several head-ons, that teabag everytime they know they're safe, that bring map offerings to play into their builds, etc. The kind that exude unwarranted toxicity. The kind that want you to suffer just for queuing up as the other role. It's more of a mentality thing. They're also the ones guaranteed to be toxic in endgame chat even if you stomp them at 5 gens. I disagree with Scott's statement of "That just doesn't happen" of players who have that mentality (though he did immediately walk it back by saying that there are sadists in every community - though I also think he underestimates how many there are). I also find Scott's take on bullying kind of interesting, but I think that calling the "bully squads" as such isn't as much about how you yourself are getting bullied as the killer, but on what the survivors are like. In response to Scott's analogy of: "if someone shoves you one time, that's a dick move, but if you keep getting shoved repeatedly, that's bullying", I don't disagree. However, if someone shoves a bunch of people they think of as lesser than them, that person is a bully.
Not to mention that there is more than one bully in DBD. Yeah, one guy is shoving you. Then another. Then another. Then another. But that's apparently not bullying because they only got the chance to shove you once?
Im not sure i agree with Swarm. Whenever ive watched his videos his group is always around the killer doing those fun plays sure, but there is also always someone doing gens in the background. If gens are so boring why do they actually do all the gens and try and escape? Why not just fool around and let the killer kill them in the end? Or why do they all quick switch to flashlights at the end if they just want to have fun? If its just fun then show the killer what they are dealing with no? I think its definitely a moot point but there are ways to have fun in the game without constantly shitting on the other side and then laughing at them on your stream
They last second switch to prevent the killer from equipping lb/franklins. It's kinda shady but I mean, it is what it is. Also, the gens thing: a lot of the time they aren't in a full swf so it's the random(s) doing the gens in the background. They can't exactly force the random to not do gens so that their gameplay is morally acceptable.
" Or why do they all quick switch to flashlights at the end if they just want to have fun?"... to have fun, duh. if the killer brings franklins and lightborn, then you just sit on gens for 5 minutes and leave. very boring
@@ScottJund You're being subjective, your personal feeling or bias doesn't make the issue go away and when you say it's a match making issue it's really not these players lose MMR to do their videos if every killer was of a certain level they wouldn't have any content it's been proven time and time again that when these "god survivors" play against actual experienced players on strong killers they aren't able to do all the "bullying" actions. Hell if they showed themselves doing this against experienced Nurses and Blights or even a Pinhead I'd be impressed but they don't they do it against mid tier inexperienced killers for content aka bullying. Call a spade a spade even if the spade doesn't feel they are a spade.
I ran into a half-bully, half-matchmaking disaster squad in one of my first ~10 killer games. I was barely rank 18. Half the team were randoms who showed they were way better than me by winning every chase, never getting hooked, and finishing gens at a good speed. They did their objectives, opened the doors, and left. The other two were clearly friends. They were constant around me, t-bagging and healing behind pallets, clicking flashlights for no reason, endlessly blinding me, and using that tractor (or whatever it is) on Coldwind Farm in ways I'd genuinely never seen (might've been an exploit). By the time the doors were open I'd given up entirely, but still they waited at the doors until the timer ran out. They laughed at me in post-game chat. There's absolutely a difference between being unable to do anything, and being actively sought out and pestered. The former doesn't keep me from playing like the latter does. I think it's kind of semantics to argue about whether the commonly used term fits or not. Regardless of what you call them, there are people who actively make the game unfun for others.
I sometimes get games with two players who are working together to save each other, etc. like you describe, except in my cases I can just target the two randoms, get them out the game, then I have all the time in the world to chase the remaining guys because no gens are getting done.
I think most people just call it bullying because, as Killer, sometimes there's just this feeling of helplessness that most people compare to being bullied because you can't do anything against it. Like, even if the survivors don't teabag or anything, I still feel like I'm being bullied when I play an M1 killer on the game, or just hold W after getting injured to a god loop on any map. That's just how terrible some maps are. Edit: See Otz' newest video, "the match that finally broke me". Perfectly ecapsulates what I mean. Even Otz got agitated, because map RNG was terrible and he played an M1 killer. The survivors weren't even doing anything to bully him.
Precisely. The feeling of helplessness of playing an M1 killer against survivors you know you cannot hit unless they royally fuck up is frustrating. Map design seems to love giving W Keyers their next pallet to predrop at the perfect time when M1 killers start to catch up.
@@Justmonika6969 That's what half of these dog sh*t maps are.. hit them once and they just run endlessly from pallet to pallet. The only way you win is by tunneling someone out or camping a 3 generator if they don't f*ck up.
in my opinion a "bully squad" can form mid game. you can have your standard bully squad that brings an offering for dead dawg to camp the main building to use their head-on but there's also the bully squad that forms when the first 4 gens were a breeze and now it's seemingly just about prolonging the killer's bad game and proving how unafraid you are. i also think generally being stunned and blinded all the time just isn't very fun for most people, and those are unfortunately the most satisfying/rewarding mechanics the survivors have besides do gens -> teabag -> exit.
...in case anyone else is convinced that dead by daylight is a perfect game where skilled plays always get rewarded with victory, see otz's video he posted recently on a 7-minute endgame as dredge vs a group of players with no reason to open the exit gate thanks to endless medkit charges, or any number of bubbas winning the game by camping at 5 gens.
Yea, people making claims in absolutes usually stick to their guns because they dont want to be viewed as ridiculous. Nuance is sadly a long lost skill amongst many internet denizens.
tbf basement is usually the wrong play, because it wastes your time walking all the way down there when hooking outside gets you closer to your next objective
Bully squads to me are 3 man swfs that harass their 4th solo queue member. Literally the only time I encounter them is when I'm being body blocked by them as survivor
the amount of times i’ve been farmed and/or left to die on hook due to getting matched with a 3-man swf lmaooo. there were several instances before keys got nerfed where a 3-man would leave through the hatch as i was on hook lmfao.
Im sorry but flashlightclicking and t bagging or "gen rushing" is not bullying man. Cyberbullying follows you outside of games its no joke. Having an annoying game is not being bullied
@@FreddieBM He elaborated on exactly that in the video. Real online bullying is what people sometimes do outside the game by haunting their victims on socials or their streams, which is absolutely an issue.
Otzdarva made a video a short while back about bully squads and he makes some good points. They *can* be beaten, you just have to sweat and think as far ahead as possible. If they use "dirty tactics" like trying to get your attention at strong loops, head-on spam, flashlight spam, etc., just use dirty tactics too. Confirm someone is on dead hook as early as possible and kill them when it matters (likely as soon as you get the chance). Assume they'll be on comms and operate in a way that ruins their attempts for comms. Like pausing above a downed survivor to bait saves and then go after who comes for the rescue long enough to guarantee you can pick the downed one up. There's ways around it, and sometimes you will lose anyway, but it's not a guarantee. And if you're new and the enemy is far from new, blame matchmaking.
In my experience "bully squads" are usually the result of bad matchmaking but also sometimes the result of survivors taking stronger things than the killer. If a body-blocking hag goes into a match where the survivors have 4 flashlights and meta perks then they'll typically feel like they're getting destroyed even if they are playing relatively well.
Last bully squad I went against I got a 4K and it was very unfun. The match result doesn’t always determine how much fun I had. I’ve had 1-2Ks against regular teams that I enjoyed way more. I’d rather that than locker saves galore.
So... killers can tunnel and camp and use the excuse that its not their job to make sure the survivors have fun. Which is facts. Which btw only 1 of 5 players have fun. But survivors can't have fun which is 4 of the 5 players in the match? 😂 goes both ways dude. No rule book my dude.
This is a thought I had too. Why does a squads "bully level" get determined by if the killer wins or not? If I'm going against a bully squad and win, I don't feel good that I got 4 kills at 4 gens. I feel annoyed that I had to spend like 10 extra minutes just being stunned and blind and stuff. I might just want to play a game normally where I actually feel that the survivors want to get out and theres a threat of me losing. Otherwise, it just feels like a boring annoying easy win.
@@NotJarrod but that's how it goes sometimes. So it's being a bully if you are in a squad and just want to have fun? Not caring if you escape or not? Again, hypocrisy for killer mains to say this, yet, a bubba can down someone and face camp them till they die, only get a 1 or 2k, and surviors are supposed to be happy that they escaped without even a chase? Goes both ways man. And you're more likely to get a killer that plays like that then a squad that just goes for stuns and blinds and no gen pressure.
@@thegreenroom3522 It's the same as when people complain in COD about corner camping with shotguns and nades, or noobtubes. It's a gameplay difference which there really are no rules. You don't have to win if you don't want to, you can just sit in the corner the whole game. But when people get killed by the same guy over and over, suddenly there's a problem. As a random player, there's not much I can do about it if I really don't want to play with groups like this besides go afk or quit and eat a disconnect timer. If this situation is something that the devs go "well we don't intend the game to be played like this", they should address the fact that a lot of survivors don't feel like holding the M1 button down after 6 years of doing the same thing and are driven to this playstyle in order to spice it up and have some fun.
@@thatonedudeguy8108 facts. The fact that there is something called toxic squad is kinda a joke as it is. A survivor can't remove the killer from game like a killer can with a survivor.
I think there is a disconnect here between the Streamer and "player" point of view. The reason why "bully squads" get so much to your average killer's mind is because they're on a 1v4 and they feel "ganged up" on. Depending on the type of person they are, that can get them anxious, annoyed, or get them to, quite literally, feel bullied. Streamers have chat interaction so the feeling of being alone against a majority doesn't really happen, I think.
In my experience "bully squads" are pretty fun to go against. It's usually a bunch of people who just want to have some fun and they don't really care about the output of the match. They try to pull of some of the dumb stuff that rarely works and if you don't loose your mind you have a high chances of winning. Just pay attention and use your brain.
Plus killers are ridiculously entitled right now how many times do you have a full team going into a game? The things survivors have to bring to be a force is the actual most meta shit and a full coordinated team and killers just literally stare at the very first face they've caught. Fair? Is that a "game"?
I think it might be a psychological effect. It’s the feeling of being held down by two guys while their two other friends beat you up but against a efficient squad at least their not in your face about it for the most part.
I felt the "bully squad" problem when I was a new player, but now I'm in the camp that enjoys that style of play. Sometimes I end up wrecked by good sabo plays, and sometimes I steamroll because half the players aren't doing gens and acting predictably, but in both cases I think it's a blast.
Hey Scott, agree with almost everything you say here, except for the thing you say at the beginning about people who try to annoy the killer as their main objective. I really don't think that just because you win the match it automatically undoes all the annoying things they did to you during the match. Like if I get into a fight and win, but I hurt my hand in the process, my hand still hurts after I win. Just because you win the match does not mean that all the annoying stuff/trolling they did is now invalid, I still had to sit through them making the game awful for 10-15 minutes. And while that doesn't make them a "bully squad", it still absolutely sucks to go against and it takes a lot of the fun out of the game, at least for me personally
To me getting bullied is both a giving and receiving thing. The person has to be giving the bullying and the victim has to be receptive of it. If the person on the receiving end genuinely doesnt care and their life is not made worse in any way, I don't consider them to have been bullied then.
@@ScottJund Thanks for the reply, and I agree. They haven't been bullied, but I still say the survivors are being toxic (note: "toxic"/"toxicity" is also very subjective). Is there a way to stop this sort of behavior? Nope. But do I still want it to stop regardless of it being nearly impossible for it to actually happen? Absolutely. The best way that one could theoretically solve this issue is as you said, to improve the matchmaking system and make it so less experienced players don't get matched against advanced players. Love your vids, hope you keep making DBD content.
One of my favorite games to this day was a 4-man of helmet Dwights on the game constantly doing the stupidest shit, it's way better than the average match.
That's a nice opinion, however the squads you've described aren't usually triple downing on toying with you until they lose. They can and often do play optimally and mess with the killer only when they feel safe to do so. So generally regular bully squads games are going as games against optimal squads where you get genrushed (minus occasional aggressive plays when there's an opportunity for that) and then, when you're unlikely to win they start running around with you doing the thing when you don't have realistic chances of making a comeback. As analogy, remember that funny scene from Tom&Jerry where Tom figured out the reach of the leashed dog, drew a line and taunted it from within a safe zone. Same story here - they find(create) a safe zone/line from which they know killer can't hurt them and toy with them. Wannabe bully squads or notorious "we play for fun with friends" don't usually care about that ofc, but they too generally tend to do most gens first before having fun because generally "just having fun with friends" doesn't work when they also die to said killer.
If the killer camps, tunnels and only gets 1-2K, were you really being camped and tunneled? The answer is yes, because it's not about whether you win or not, but how frustrating/boring you make it for the other side to play.
The problem is camping and tunneling are objective things. You can always claim and see exactly when that is happening. "Bullying" varies from 4 man head on squads to literally just 4 random good survivors depending on who you ask. On the flip side, I find matches in which survivors play extremely efficiently and split up, finishing the game in 4 minutes FAR more frustrating than a bunch of goobers trying to stun me as they die.
@@ScottJund 4 man SWF is already pretty much the easy mode of DbD, so them using a busted map offering to compensate for "goofing off" doesn't really affect their chances to win by that much. That is especially prominent when playing lower tier killers who already feel helpless against well-coordinated teams.
Scott is unnaturally good at keeping cool and not letting things bother him and I think he really sucks at understanding he is the outlier. It's a good skill to have and it's something everyone should work on getting better at, but most people aren't there yet and his advice is always just "lol just don't let it annoy you?" which is really dumb and misses the point entirely.
Scott's opinion on being bullied is so laid back 3:49 that its hard to imagine anyone else is realistically just as chill when they play. Props for not giving a shit if they're being sadists right in your face. Controversial opinion, the players hacking the game and targeting specific players, those are the actual Bully Squads.
I had a game when I was still very new at DBD where I was learning Hillbilly and I went up against 4 bill players. They exploited map terrain, they utilized loops in ways I was not able to wrap my head around and most importantly- they never touched a single generator. I ended up winning yes but after nearly an hour of struggling and pure negativity. They teabagged, flashlight clicked me and were extremely rude in end of game chat. It's in my opinion easiest to dismiss bullying when you are more experienced in a game and inversely overlook the fact that any new player to a game like this going through something like that is likely to just quit the game entirely. While I agree "bullying" is overblown, it definitely exists in DBD. And I appreciate Scott's take on the severity of bullying/harassment. However, to ignore it happening in games as a matter of it not affecting him personally or relating to his experience with bullying, it's inadvertantly downplaying what other people go through. "Just close the game" is the same logic as "just get off facebook" or any other similar argument. People should not be forced to avoid spaces and the victim is never to blame. I digress, *bullying* is highly overblown in DBD and for the most part is a much lesser problem than it seems. Scott is correct to identify most cases as oversensitivity. It certainly does happen though in DBD and other similar games.
I disagree with your assessment. I think bully squads do exist. If survivors brought killers to RPD during the time when you couldn't hook from the library provide just one example of intentionally inflicting a negative experience to the killer? 4 identical claudettes who rotate in and out while coordinating head-ons, flashbangs, flashlights, etc., regardless of skill differential, be another case (especially of such behavior after they've powered gates). It's rare, and I can think of maybe only a half dozen times where I've come across actual concerning behavior, but the dismissal of it's existence seems incorrect. Your view and opinion differs to at least some degree likely because of your level of skill and experience with the game. Have a wonderful day :)
@@ScottJund Your assessment at 1:42 is that bully squads don't have anything to do with the players but has to do with imbalanced matchmaking. My response is that bully squads is specifically about player behavior and isn't about imbalance matchmaking. Imbalanced matchmaking and player behavior/bully squads are very easily distinguishable based upon the actions of the players, specifically actions like tbagging post pallet drops, ghostface tbags, etc. Survivors who are just good and not out to make killers' lives worse are generally pretty obvious because they're just straight up playing well (which is again why you experience may differ from the casual player). Thanks again for your videos :)
I feel like the real “bully squads” are comp teams who play super efficient, pre drop every pallet, Gen rush, never save their teammates or heal, etc. and get out of the game after 5 minutes
Taking all the best stuff into pub games. Got a 2k against a comp team as blight and they were just so upset they didn't just auto win the game like usual. And the pre drop is so boring, my god. Would have been a 3-4k without 4 unbreakable's guess that prepares me for next patch though, if it happens.
Good players do go against bully squads though, they just are able to finish the game fast so it doesn’t feel like it. Also when some of the biggest content creators are going to extensive lengths to dodge and avoid the same cheaters who stalk them I think that does count as bullying. Especially since things like doxing can easily follow them out of the game. I do agree that most people called bully squads aren’t out to be harmful to those they play against, but there are people who play just to be a dick to those they play against and that’s on both sides of the player base not just survivors.
i've had a few absolutely miserable games playing dbd where the survivors are intentionally doing their best to not let me play the game. bully squads exist. yes, bad match-making also exists. they are not the same. there is a difference between doing well because your squad was matched against a bad killer and purposefully going out of your way to create hook deadzones, survivors that literally can't be picked up, etc. just because you don't find those situations unfun doesn't mean "bully squads" don't exist or there aren't people that make the game absolutely horrible to play for others. this feels to me like a "well, i'm not being bullied, so bullying doesn't happen" situation
I remember my first "bully squad" experience, four flashlights all burnt map offerings to spread out hooks and I was doing meme wraith. We ended up on midwich. They immediately realized I was playing with them and after they basically finished burning out their flashlights they were basically all dead with five gens left. I felt so bullied.
i had a crystallizing moment when i got a seal team six bully squad and remembered your video explaining that no gens get done and eventually flashlights run out, etc. rather than my usual leave, i stuck it out even though it did get on my nerves. i held fast to just keeping my eye on the generators while trying to navigate the bullshit they were doing, and i ended up with a 4k at 4 gens. it is a win, and if wins are what you care about, then yeah i totally agree you love to see them because you know it's an easy win, but if you're not playing to win, and your build is something for funs/cool plays as a higher priority than winning, and the whole game is you not getting to do that because the other team is, in effect, throwing, that's still frustrating, even if winning soothes it. but i really fundamentally do not agree that there aren't people out there playing well out of their skill range and then following up with shit talking in post game chat just to make someone feel powerless, then even if you leave they'll post on your profile if it's not private/friends only comments, i even had someone go as far as leave a comment on a screenshot from 2019 because my settings were public for them at the time. i do agree that people do use the term a bit too freely, either in the context of using it as a term for survivors just playing well, or throwing to do sabo plays etc, that that stuff isn't bullying, and that it's the post game stuff that crosses the line.
I would say bully squads are where they harass the killer while completing objective, often against inexperienced killers, i once had a match where they completed the gens and held me in the match harrassing me until the time ran out on the end game collapse
I agree it's an overused term. It's only really a bully squad when they BM at every opportunity and then tell you how terrible you are in the end game chat (along with other things). Though, a wide disparity for skill can result the survivors deciding to prolong the game with a novice killer getting increasingly frustrated while the survivors run circles around them instead of leaving. Which leads to the term being thrown out even if they were not necessarily mean.
The aside to talk about real, actual bullying was very sweet and highly appreciated. With that said, I feel like the focus on terminology in this video felt a bit unnecessary. I don't imagine the phrase 'bully squad' was ever anything more than a catchy name some person/s came up with that ended up sticking, much like how many people refer to groups of players in Souls game invasions as 'gankers' regardless of their actual intent to gank. "Head On squad" just doesn't pack the same punch.
3:22 There aren’t people going into this game playing with friends with the sole purpose of going “hey let’s ruin this killer’s day” that just doesn’t happen… 3:32 Ok that happens
You know "bullying" has a definition, right? It's a fairly broad term, and in the right situation dbd bullying can definitely fall under the umbrella. It's kinda like the term "violence" for example. "Bullying: the behaviour of a person who hurts or frightens someone smaller or less powerful, often forcing that person to do something they do not want to do" - Cambridge dictionary
@@ScottJund " the behaviour of a person" - I think we can all agree most toxic players qualify "who hurts or frightens someone smaller or less powerful"- if the teabagger is a considerably better player, this qualifies "often forcing that person to do something they do not want to do" - DC or keep playing an unenjoyable game
@@ass640 What does Scott using a word wrong and making a video out of it has to do with maturity? No, bullying in dbd isn't as bad as targeted bullying. yes, it's still bad.
I usually agree with you but i feel like you yourself are just better at the game than the average player to properly play against it vs the ppl that just want to get on an kill a survivor or two
I feel like "bully squads" are focused around newer/bad killers. I had moments where survivors are acting normal (think they're SWF) and as soon as they knew I was bad at chase they stopped doing gens/trying to win and just kept being toxic around me (flashlight clicking, t-bagging, gestures mid-chase, etc). So I do get why for these people who are good that "bully squads dont exist" because they have an understanding of the game, bully squads do exist for newer players which matchmaking is responsible for.
I agree with Swarm in the tweet. Gimme the interactive "bully squad" that actually tries to play the game with me any day over people who will just hide, run in a straight line, and sit on a generator every game. Hit me with head-ons, DS/Unbreakable combos, flashlight saves, sabos, and crazy balanced landing plays or whatever all match long please. I mean it. It's 1000x more fun than Prove Thyself, BNP, and stealth players.
Also, huge agree on "when people say they want to play casually, what they really mean is they want the other team to play casually." Everyone I know that hates MMR because they say it made the game "too sweaty, every match" really just misses being able to stomp people without trying. Every one of them.
“bully squad” is a term mostly used colloquially. I’ve heard it before where people try to dismiss someone’s argument by talking about how it’s not actually “bullying”, but that’s similar to being in an argument with someone on the internet and correcting their spelling or grammar instead of address anything they might be bringing up. What “bully squad” means in DBD is a group of survivors that actively try to make a killer not have a good time, often times neglecting their win condition. And yes it is very prevalent. I’m a survivor main with about 3k hrs on DBD. Maybe 500 of those hours are on killer? I’m not the best. But bully squads are so prevalent that even in my short time on killer I’ve run into 1-2 bully squads every 15-20 matches. I’m not talking about survs who just destroy me either. I’m talking about survs who teabag me at every pallet on a busted map like Cowshed where there’s not much I can do about it with Wraith. I’ll relate it to a boxing match. If you get into the ring with someone and their only intention is punching you in the dick, they can. They won’t win the match, but their objective isn’t to win. It’s to make you not have a good time. And the real culprits are immaturity and DBD having abusable mechanics. If “gens with friends” is boring, I’m sorry but that’s the main point of the game and if you find that boring you and your friends should play a different game.
“People aren’t going to play with the express intent to ruin someone’s day, it just doesn’t happen-“ Scott. Have you seen the community? Do you know how many racial slurs and homophobic slurs I have been called and seen, by people who try their hardest to not just win, but try and piss me off? The ones who love their clickies, and tbags, and showboating. The ones who call you trash, even if you’re new and still learning a lot. It’s been happening somewhat frequently to me, and it’s just disheartening as hell. There’s mean people out there, man.
Finished the vid a bit ago, yeah I get fully what you mean now. Fun at other people’s expense in a game is one thing; it’s another to make it personal and go after players repeatedly afterwards, which I’ve had happen to me more than I’d like. I’ve been genuinely bullied a lot irl, and it’s just so tiresome to play games and have to deal with it in something that should be enjoyable. I don’t mind the “Bully Squads” (boil over/flashies) that don’t take the match seriously.
7:00 IMO Scott, a person can be a “bully” and bully separate people on separate, singular occasions. I think it’s more of an individual thing-someone can be a bully because of how they treat, perceive and belittle others, while not singling out a target. Though, I do agree with you that “bully” is misused in “bully squad.” And, on “bully squads,” the only think I would consider a “bully squad” is a group of generally good survivors smurfing as a swf and trying to play against new killers in order to play around with them and make their game unenjoyable. I think a “bully squad” would have to be targeting weaker players if they were to exist at all. I bet people do this, I wouldn’t be surprised at least if they do, but I know it’s not a common thing-and “bully squad” definitely isn’t used by people in those actual situations.
I love getting "bully squads" as killer. 100% fun chases and constant interaction with survivors with gens not getting done? I'd take a 'bully squad' over 4 survivors with hyperfocus who just try to do gens the entire game as fast as possible.
Unrelated to Bully Squads. but I completely disagree with the whole "the other side isn't out to make you miserable" take. Even if it's the vocal minority, I've seen way too many people who genuinely hate the killer or survivors. and these people are super prevalent on twitch and twitter. I also have run into a few people while playing SWF with randoms, that go out of their way to make the killer as miserable as possible because they gain some strange gratification from it. Toxicity runs rampant in a lot of communities but its rooted deep within DBD. Some people revel in the fact that they upset the killer/ survivors. and I can say that even I enjoy the feeling I get knowing the killer/ survivors got upset at me, especially if they were playing like a dick
Unfortunately I've run into squads that do both. They have equal amounts of gen pressure and at least 1 or 2 of them are running around trying to do pallet stuns and flashlight saves and things like that. They are hyper coordinated with comms And in the post game chat tell you to "get better." And when you're still new to the game trying to figure out how things work that is a really shitty feeling. My biggest issue is the play style of coordination. Sure I play with my friends a lot as well but when people are like synchronizing their watches and their builds to try and win something over on the killer, To me it just kind of feels like metagaming. This game in my opinion is trying to sell you on the experience of being in something akin to a slasher film. either as the slasher or a survivor. And when the survivors are supercoordinated with a telepathic link to each other that the killer cannot hear that kind of goes against the spirit of the game in my opinion. I'm not saying people can't play with their friends in discord and stuff. But when people have that kind of try hard playstyle, It just seems imbalanced to me.
ehhh, t-bagging isn't automatically bullying, but it can, and has, been used by people to make killers/other survivors feel bad on purpose, same as flashlight clicking/point etc etc
@@samuels6135 I suppose I could have said "even if you believe t'bagging isn't bullying" rather than simply stating it isn't. My main point is that comparatively harmless actions can feel much worse to people depending on surrounding circumstances. People often dismiss trigger/content warnings, but you never know what's going on in people's lives, and what's harmless to you can be devastating to them.
I will say, while you are right about the difference in being bullied and someone being a dick, the term “bully squad” could still be very accurate. If a group of 4 people go into a game with the intent of possible off the killer by teabagging every time they get a stun and flashlight clicking every chance they get, they’re being a dick with the intent of ruining the killer’s experience. And while it may be a one time experience between the squad and the killer, the group probably does it repeatedly. And I would absolutely describe someone who goes around and harasses people with the intent of making them miserable, as a bully.
What people consider a bully squad is usually friends playing the game and having a good laugh, and most of the things “bully squads” do are ineffective against experienced players
I think it might be best defined as those matches where the playstyle of one side goes against the enjoyment of the other side. That might be the most general description that would also explain why players that are unphased by "bully squads" don't perceive them as such. I agree with the point that one should just turn off the screen and do something else if they get tilted. I would concede, but sadly that's not an option. I say everyone is responsible for their own enjoyment, which is why I just stand in a corner if the playstyle of the other team gets to me. They win, I lose, next match.
Tbf the one thing you're omiting on the description of bully squad is toxicity too, "they're just having fun with friends" doesn't work when the egc, or even steam profiles, etc... is either insulting the killer for being too easy to beat, or for beating them. Oh and whats this "oh they're all busy bullying the killer so they'll lose as no one does gens", thats just wrong, from seeing friends play, and myself, these types of people will always have at the very very least, 1 guy that will go for gens so they'll still get progress done while the other 3 dick around the killer. And ye no shit you'd rather go vs them, you got 7-8k hours and can deal with them way more easily(tho i'd argue that them using RPD, Gideon, or eerie of crows offerings would still make your match not as fun as you describe it), try and put yourself in the position of someone learning yet. The matchmaking ofc will mess up the new guy, but that doesnt mean the term suddently doesn't exist. From experience, since you mentioned it,and i've actually got bullied at school years ago, (can't say it was something horrid as i've seen people have it worse ofc), but my 2 cents here, feels kinda weird how you know bullying affects people, but then disregard other peoples and how they might feel as "it's not as bad as actual bullying", like, yes, its not as bad as what irl bullying can get, but just saying "lmao it doesnt count you shouldnt feel bad" feels kinda like youre putting the blame here on the victim. I'm sure it wasn't the intention, but again, you're approaching this with the perspective of someone with a shitton of time and knowing how this goes. Yes its a game and most of us know that its just randos, people being salty, etc..., but it aint just someone pressing control, i had friends that had people stalk them for weeks and months all over different platforms, from the egc chat, to steam profile, to twitter, to streams they tried to do, it was nasty
Throwback to that one time i got a 4 man swf that burnt an erye offering with 2 toolboxes 1 beefy medkit and 1 flashlight that spammed "ez" postgame after I got 1k while I was playing my third ever hag match
'Bully squad' is synonymous with 'sore winner'. Those are the sorts of people that, when they find out they have an advantage over the other side, they twist the knife further to make sure the other side knows they're no longer in control of the situation. There is intent. This kind of goes back to your videos on defining "toxicity". I've been pretty good about not caring about the outcome of games or how many points I get. I do get frustrated when things don't go my way, like anyone else would, but I don't let that dictate the next game. Or the next game after that. I am the first person in the game to start memeing around and doing dumb shit like starting chases with the survivor on my shoulder that decided to give up 3 seconds into the game because they didn't like the killer I was playing (not nurse, for the record). Generally, when people see me goofing around like that, they follow suit. There's a release of tension that I aim for that helps people realize they're playing a fuckin' game to have fun.
If any form of pain is involved the Phrase "Go touch grass" is compleatly inapropriate. I know you say it to often to shut down an argument but that does not make it apropriate. No the Squads are Not Sadist. You dont need to be a Sadist to have your fun with ruining someones day. Empathy is a thing we all have to learn. It Just becomes much Harder If you cant see the face of the Person that you are kicking for your enjoyment. I have been on both Sides of bulliing in my Life. First as the Perpetrator later as the Victim. If i am online and i meet a group of such malevolent mental teenagers that find enjoyment in ganging up on someone and go out of their way to make the next half hour as shitty as possible for someone else - i remind myself that compassion and a healthy way of dealing with each other is hard enough IRL and they most likely dont understand what they are doing. If you - Like me happen to meet them and you have made real life experience with bulling... You might have some thowbacks. I play the game since 2016 (i guess) and i quit it for around a year because of abusive SWFs that did not even attempt to play the game.
i’d probably consider the positions pity of the voices that comment of the game. they are always career players that are excellent. some of this is totally on, but waffling on the semantics of bullying is not helpful to a community that does seem at times to be hell bent on making someone upset. should they be? who knows, but most don’t have your skill and i could imagine their frustration at just not being good then being clowned on. i’ve watched that swarm dude play and some other loopers and a key desire seems to be the ability to have a laugh at someone else’s expense not having a fun match for all. ur right, perspective is needed, touching grass is needed,,, but like, i think it’s also okay to sympathize with ppl really struggling to find joy in their favorite game bc ppl are actively trying to upset them.
I play oni. The most fun matches I ever have are when I can use my power a lot because survivors are not afraid and are very active. Usually happens when there’s a streamer and I’ll go say hey, and their rarely ever malicious
Think I’ve only ever run into one “bully squad” in my entire time playing DBD and it was a group of 4 Dwight’s in identical red outfits; 7 minutes into the game I had 2 hooks and was 5 gens down but because of the general fun and funny vibe they were giving off with the most stupid and bold plays that somehow worked, I had a great time. I chatted to them in the post game lobby for 10 minutes and I think a lot of complaints about DBD can simply be boiled down to attitude and being bored with the game. Just play, take it less seriously and honestly even when you’re getting destroyed you can see the humour or fun in it and have some great convos after
Some of my most fun matches have been against 4 man sabo squads that took me several gens down before I could even get my first hook in because they were there to do pallet/flashie saves or hook sabos/blocks. Except maybe the first time I hit one, I won every single one of those matches because they prioritize saves over gens and the back and forth is so fun to play through. The least fun ones were the guys who knew exactly how many pallets they could pre-drop and tea-bag behind while their squad pounded gens. I mean it feels bad, but ultimately it's just them trying to get you tilted while taunting you and you don't really have to let that affect you.
I love 'bully squads', they come up with new fun strategies instead of afking on gens, where I need to adapt to counter them. The games also last long enough to give me a very good chance to win since they don't care about escaping and it's a fun overall experience.
If I can't get hooks because they constantly are sabo'ing or trying to go for saves/blocks and they all die from bleed out and I still end up with no hooks. Yeah that's bullying. I was denied not only BP for hook states but also Pips for ranking up. Saying it doesn't exist is pretty loaded in of itself.
As someone who has gotten very close to the edge earlier in life due to constant childhood bullying and still deals with social deficiencies that will never quite heal, I want to say something I've wanted to say for a long time to you Scott whenever you discuss things like this. Because like how you say it pisses you off that people compare the two, it really pisses me off in the way you talk about this, exactly because you downplay people that compare the two, because of my own history and understanding of what it means to be bullied. While I agree with your initial premise that if you're new to the game, you're likely to misinterpret good players and harmless banter for bully squads. However, the experience of 'true' bully squads gets a lot closer to the real deal than you might imagine, and I do think you are being too unempathetic with reactions like "No action in game can be considered bullying" "Go touch grass". Going online and playing video games is a very frequent form of escapism for bully victims, and one of the things I attribute to not losing myself back then. They provide a safe place to go where you have a higher expectation not to be judged or singled out. Telling someone this, is basically asking them to become a rock and not interact with people at all. A bully victim needs to take many leaps of faith to find positive social experiences to really get through things like bullying, and telling them this is very counterproductive in my eyes. DBD for new players, just straight up sucks at doing that, and so I definitely feel for anyone working through these issues and then picks up DBD. I honestly would advise them not to, if I had the chance. Despite DBD being a perfectly fine game once you get the hang of things. Your words are very reminiscent to me of the many 'advices' I've gotten to deal with my bullying as a child. "Oh, just go somewhere else", "Just walk away when you see that group", "Just say inside during breaks". It simply does not work and just causes the bully victim to seal themselves off. And most of all, the encounter will eventually still come, perhaps even harsher than if the 'advice' had been ignored. And even worse, just like the bullies behavior is more effective against them despite the fact that it shouldn't, so are bad advice and unempathetic comments! It will make them feel shame for voicing their concerns, because apparently their issues aren't that bad, and they're just being sensitive. It teaches them that they should suck it up, and seal themselves off. This can definitely be a contributor to someone falling into a depression or worse. Bully victims are often isolated from normal socialization, and as such, they are often more alone than others. Because of that, things that downplay someone's confidence, like tbagging, flashlight clicking, can hit a lot harder and potentially cause the person to break down. Yes, they *ought* not to hurt the confidence of someone. But for that you need strong self assurance, which is exactly what a bully breaks down in bully victims, and so a bully victim is more likely to still be bothered seriously by that encounter. They have not built up resilience to shrug that kind of thing off as easily. They might think about the encounter for days and feel anxiety as they question if the next game will be just as bad. The people you are saying are taking things too seriously, might very well be bully victims or victims of other abuse, and who feel like their legitimate feelings are being disregarded. In part, I've always dislike this about the way you talk about these kinds of things, and it almost stopped me from watching you when I first found you despite otherwise having a really chill, well analyzed, carefree attitude otherwise. Yes, bad DBD encounters are not systematic bullying, but they can be very much akin to the individual steps a bully takes to break down a victim, and your argument that it needs to be a repeated offense before it can be described by people as bullying is simply playing semantics in my eyes. In the moment, it can feel just as devastating as a single encounter with a real bully. And what you're saying is basically "well they didn't use the perfect words to describe the situation, so any negativity and misery they got from that situation wasn't as bad!". There is simply more than one kind of bullying, and their effects should not be disregarded: changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/bullying/types_bullying.htm You can both be bullying someone, while being a dick to them, they are not mutually exclusive. I quit DBD the first time after I bought the game exactly because of that, because it just brought up too much bad memories and made me feel again what I never wanted to feel again. I did eventually pick the game up again, but I seriously contemplated quitting again because it was the same terrible experience as before. It took me a lot mental effort to reach the critical mass to be consistently good enough not to ever be caught off guard by bully squads anymore (real or misinterpreted). I feel that those feelings of misery should still be taken seriously, because that's not a sane thing to be expecting from new players, which is why I heavily agree with your stance that the matchmaking would need drastic improvement on that. I just wish you would take a more empathetic stance on how people are affected by these kinds of things in your videos (Especially since you seem to take to high regard the trauma and loss of people you know that lost their lives to bullying), because there are many lines before a person ends their own life that are just as legitimately disheartening and mentally abusive. And they can be prevented or remedied, by people just having a little bit more empathy for their situation. A little understanding goes a long way, not everyone has a fortress in their mind, ready to take on and disregard any kind of mental stress. They rely on people they look up to for comfort. You are in a position like that Scott as a youtuber with a community, please consider that. Not all of them will have the heart to call you out on it. (I know I wouldn't be able to back then) Again, I am not saying that this is the case for when a bully squad is misinterpreted. but thinking back to my early DBD days, there were definitely some bully squads sprinkled in between that seem definitively malicious to me even now. Messing with the killer is fine, but there are definitively a good amount of sadists among them that see an opportunity to go further than that if they notice the killer is newer or vulnerable, which is the same thing a bully looks for in their victims. Yes we should teach people to build up resistance to be able to shrug off those things, but the people who have the least of that should also be taken seriously when they voice their concerns. I am sure there are people overstating, or are simply entitled, but that should not be your default position and tone when addressing concerns that could be legitimate as well, in my opinion. Thank you if you read this far, I just really needed to get that off my chest because it has always bothered me.
My definition of "Bully Squad" (which I don't even really use, I don't feel as though the term fits well at all) is players who have a very risky play style and make very high risk high reward plays (greeding pallets and windows, making risky high payoff reads and predictions, head on stuns, etc etc etc), and then try to bail themselves/each other out (blinding at pallets, taking lots of protection hits, bodyblocking, flashlight/pallet/locker saves, CJ Techs, Boil Over and/or sabos, etc.). It can feel like you're "bullying" the killer because it's like dangling the carrot on the stick to the killer and then yanking it out of reach with their skill/risks paying off/outplays several times dispite the risk they put themselves in by not playing safely. I think it has less to do with if you end up winning or losing, and more to do with how well/poorly you played in comparison to the others. (Which is also part of why this is a problem effecting primarily lower skill players, as you said higher skill players don't care, and this is because they're good enough to grab the carrot before it can be yanked away, thus not ever feeling "bullied".) Also "Bullying" is absolutely not the term I'd use, as you brought up. Though I don't agree that it's as simple as 'button and animation in video game are annoying me', I think it's a bit more emotionaly complicated than that. I think it's more like 'I'm simply being outplayed very hard, and it's frustrating to feel so bad.' Games were defined by someone as "The exuberant (thrilling/exciting) exploration of one's own abilities within the world", so it makes a lot of sense to me as to why being crushed in terms of skill in a video game can feel so frustrating. Also about the matchmaking issue you brought up, I think this imbalance may be due to them not actually winning in the eyes of the game. If you demolish a killer but never do gens and end up all dying, that's a loss in the eyes of MMR (afaik at least), and so these insane players will continue to go against very bad players and drag them through the mud. Obviously the imbalanced matchmaking still exists as you described, but I think this is also a factor as to why so many more lower skill players get "bully squads" more often than higher skill players.
I ran into a comp team the other day and I play blight. It was on auto haven and I’ve been playing him since he came out. Got like maybe 4 hooks. I didnt see it as bullying but rather an opportunity to play against people better than me. Getting teabagged at a pallet or flashlight saved on is just part of the game. Better matchmaking is part of it but also mentality of the player base being very entitled.
I would heavily disagree with the claim higher mmr leads to less bully squad encounters, we know for a fact that most people are around 1700 to 1800 when they start and max out at 1900 meaning most bully sqauds have only a slightly higher mmr than everyone else. If anything getting higher mmr and improving at tge game makes you encounter them more often because most good bully sqauds win like 80 percent of their matches so people who just start the game or are low mmr have an almost 0% chance running into one. Also I don't have an issue with going up against good swfs the reason bully sqauds are soo annoying is because even if you do outplay them and win the game you don't get to enjoy it because you were so stressed out the entire time focusing on winning that when you finally do you just feel exhausted because they went out of their way to make what would normally be a hard match into a hard match with tabagging, flashlight clicking, exploit abuse like the double locker blind in the eiry of crows and dcs for hatch to prevent the 4k even when you outplay them and win. Also that stress is doubled if you face them while trying to chill out with a meme build, not using the absolute best/meta perks or you are playing anything below a b teir killer. With bully sqauds you either stress out and push through their bs to win only to feel exhausted at the end or you accept defeat and feel bad until your next match. Bully sqauds are to killers what bleeding and tunneling people out the game is to survivors, it's unfun and ruins the experience whether you win or not. Oh and I didn't even mention the fact that if you get a bad map or have really bad rng that hard and annoying game can become almost impossible to win even on a 4k hour nurse using good perks.
I have to agree with the whole "good people playing against average killers", I normally get big Stup- survivors while playing survivor myself, but seriously, they're on another level of stupidity, and the worst part is that i'm kinda good, average but at least i know what to do, where to go, how to waste time if imma die fast, but I keep getting real dumb survivors, I don't really care that much by know, it has been a year, but the real shit happened yesterday, i was on D.D. Saloon with a bunch of randoms versing a Pinhead, and that team, was AMAZING! like literally, we only got 3 hooks on endgame, and that because of trading (we were all solos so we weren't too coordinated), if I must recall a moment on that match was when Pinhead downed Zarina, he was taking her to the hook in front of my gen that was at 90%, i stood in front of the hook to take a hit, then when i left the area I saw the Ada and the Quentin going to that hook to bodyblock too, the man couldn't hook Zarina, and that wasn't it, I after finishing my gen went and took a hit for Quentin, then later on the match Zarina took a hit for me, we were playing like a comp team, none of us were downed until endgame, and guess what? we all 4 escaped, and the PH wasn't bad at all, it happened that we were better, as a team, not as individuals, and for the first time in months I thought "so that's what killers call a bully squad uh?" and the best part is that the killer was a TTV so I went to the stream and apologize for my behaviour, I didn't tbag but i pointed my finger at him after pallet stun him twice ;-; and he was good sports so, everything fine at the end, but i won't forget that match in a loooooooong time 😊😊
I agree with most of Scott’s points about a squad being better than you doesn’t make them a bully squad. Just because there was a skill gap in your match does not mean a given group of survivors was trying to ruin your day. However, I do believe bully squads exist, and what sets them apart from just skilled SWF’s is their intention and disrespect. As some other comments have mentioned, bully squads go in to a game with the intention to make the killer frustrated and get under their skin, clicking and t-bagging every chance they get. It’s just unsportsmanlike and really disrespectful to the killer who is, at the end of the day, a human being. These squads, who go into the game looking to anger the killer, are what I would classify as “bully squads”.
Scott, you really got this one wrong. A good squad becomes a bully squad not when they win, but when they teabag, click, and GG EZ in the chat after. There is a clear difference.
I 100% agree, when I first started playing DBD, I played this match with a bunch of people who I thought at the time were a "bully squad" because as a new killer, they kept getting saves, stunning me with pallets, etc. I made a whole vid about it and I called them toxic, it was kinda funny tbh. I look back at that vid and I say, "If only you knew, you just suck and were paired with people who are just messing around." I also had a skewed frame of view of what was and wasn't toxic because people told me, "If this happens, then they're toxic." rather than telling me the nuance and now I can make that distinction, but before I couldn't. I will find it funny because the comments on the vid after over a year, A YEAR, of it being up there was like 1-3 people who took it upon themselves to be like, "No, you're actually the toxic one because..." and I thought that was funny because if they've seen any of my recent content, they would know I've grown and changed. I don't see the point of taking the vid down because I partially want my channel to show how much I've grown as a DBD player. I just found that whole thing so funny XD
A bully squad is when you meet a cohordinated group of survivor that uses bugs of the game to make you feel powerless for the sole porpouse of doing so. They know they are using bugs, they do not care. They know they can play normal but they do not want. Examples: - When BO was buffed teams with BO, NM, SG, DH that sent you to police station or Eyrie and always went the the place where they knew there were no hooks in reach without falling; - Teams with infinite torches and HO that send you to to the saloon because they know there are a lot of lockers where you cannot grab - Teams they know the spots were it was impossible to pickup when there was that bug and kept going there to be downed and making for you impossible to pick. If these aren't bully squads what are those? Good players that only want to have fun? Bully squads exist, 99% percent of the perceived one aren't, but they are not even so rare it is impossible to meet them, every experienced killers knows this issue. Obv it is not really bullyism. Those are called bully-squad but noone think this have anything to do with real bullyism.
yeah i agree with pretty much all of this. i like to play survivor with friends and we're super casual, but sometimes we just go up against lesser skilled killers. and sometimes we get completely curbstomped. the matchmaking is just scuffed.
I had a bully squad just the other day that took me to the game to spam locker flashlight saves. Two of em p100. Two of em got slugged to death and the other two died as well. Thank bhvr for making darkness revealed. 🙏
when i play 'bully squads' even if they successfully 'bully', they usually end up being the most thrilling games that despite frustrating me, can be the most satisfying games to win.
Bring Franklin's Demise. These guys would rather die than giving up their insta-heals and ultra-rare addon flashlights. They'll literally turn on the spot and waste their dead hard, just to get their item back. Franklin's Demise is free hits galore against Item reliant 4-Man Squads.
I think a bully squad is a SWF that coordinates their efforts to prevent killers from getting hooks and/or to stun the killer. How well that squad does depends on how much they coordinate, how skilled they are, how skilled the killer is, and the randomness of the map. The best bully squads try to control as many variables as possible. They also know how to balance their “bullying” by coordinating effectively between gen rushing and preventing hooks. The bad ones are hilarious and it just makes for intensely silly match.
The biggest bully in this game isn't SWFs or sweaty killers. Its maps. The only time I feel truly helpless is if I get a horrible map on a killer that can't deal with it, or alternate against a killer that has way too much power on it (Nurse on Midwich for example, or stealth killers on Lerys). That being said, survivor groups have a 80% higher chance to go to the map of their choice. I had no less than 5 survivor groups in a row send me to Eyrie of Crows, this after 2 sent me to RPD.
Personally I like to go against teams like that, the players can actually showcase their skills vs me and 100/100 times I will kill them like you said. One problem I see and consider it bullying is when the killer is obviously new/wayyy to inexperienced to go against 4 survivors who are good at fucking with the killer and another way smaller problem is for some reason the players who are trying to “bully” , if the killer outplays them by slugging them all or get everyone eventually they consider it a win because they fucked with the killer long enough or think they made the killer mad.
To me a "Bully Squad" is any group of survivors that go in to have fun at the expense of the killer. There are ways to make a game fun for both sides but most "Bully Squads" have three dedicated survivors who will do all in their power to annoy and anger the killer, making the match a miserable experience, while the fourth will just do gens as fast as they possibly can so they can still get escapes at the end. Sure, often you can shut them down and still get 3-4 kills but that doesn't mean you had fun during the match. I stand by the idea that survivors shouldn't ever feel like they are the power role in a game like this, if they do that's a design/balancing issue.
in regards to that tweet, is it fun for the killer to chase for 3 gens only to lose their only down to a flashlight save because you had to force them to an open dead zone to down them, and if you stop to look around for savers first they get up with wglf/unbreakable, then they spend the rest of the game stunned or blind while the last 2 gens get finished by a hyperfocus commodius built to last haver and the survivors get a free escape? And also can't injure multiple people either because boons/green medkits/ syringes/ basically having 4 health stages exists now...not fun for the killer at all.
Winning against a “bully squad” does not mean they werent a “bully squad”. If they are going out of their way to annoy the killer, they are still a “bully squad”. The one major example is head on. That perk literally only exists to annoy the killer. It has no actual use. Its not the only example but that perk immediately denotes a bully squad, or at least a person actively trying to ruin other people’s fun
I guess when the term started to be used, "bully squads" did exist. When survivors did hold a lot of control over how the match went they could actually go out of their way to mess with the killer and still get at least two to three man escapes. Back then I don't think it was quite a matchmaking issue because I remember going against survivors that I could chase and down quite easily, it just wasn't fun or effective to eat DS and BT after DS and BT. As of now I almost completely agree with you. With all the nerfs that those builds went through and me becoming a WAY better killer than I was, I just know how to deal with it and never had another problem. I guess the average player base just carried the term and kept using it even when it's meaning is not there anymore. Also, as a killer I think sometimes we just fall on that trap of getting frustrated of these survivors not being scared of you and when you can't even down them, you just go that "bully squad" excuse instead of calming the fuck down and realizing there are still 4 gens left to be made
The only point where I can disagree with you is that "It doesn't happen anymore". It certainly doesn't happen as much and I wouldn't call them "bully squads", but the matches we watch you and other streamers play really don't fit with the ones that we - the average playerbase - are playing.
As a Killer, if you really want to counter a "Bully Squad" (I just called them sweat squads because that's how they play) bring: Agitation + Iron Grasp (for sabos or in case they try and body block you), Save the Best for Last (works good with carrying a survivor or catching up quicker in chase if you're an M1 killer), Lightborne (because nothing's funnier then them trying to blind you and nothing happens) and the last perk can be like Sloppy Butcher for longer heal times, Shattered Hope to get rid of their healing totems (because you know for fact they're bringing them) or Franklin's Demise if you want to just swat the items off of them. Gen regression perks don't work as well because 90% of the time they're on comms and will be able to call out which gens to work on, what perks you're running, etc in order to counter it. This is just from my 3k hours of experience in the game. Sorry for the TL;DR.
I think the ultimate counter to bully squads is the AFK strategy. Theres nothing more likely to prevent a head on stun from happening or a flashlight from blinding you than just standing in the corner of the map. 😂 Sarcasm mostly, but legit sometimes if people are just trying to mess around all game, just like a farming game, I might just choose not to play if I want a more normal game. I want to play killer to chase people and hook people (not even camp and tunnel and all that) but if a team wants to deny fun from a killer then they should be happy being denied as well. Facecamping with Bubba is also an option if you happen to be playing that killer.
Honestly I love playing against "bully squads". I love downing someone then running through all the possibilities of how I think they'll try to go for a save this time. The gamble of whether or not I'll get to the hook or they'll wiggle free after a couple of hits. Trying to guess where they'll try for the flashy save from. I just think its way more fun than "down one person, hook them, find another person, hook them, repeat and if you're not fast enough 5 gens pop".
The other week on Twitter I saw someone complaining about the same kinda thing and they said it was unfun and I tried telling them that I’d they’re good they’ll win against these squads and that it’s basically objectively fun since you’re constantly in chase the most fun part of the game and they didn’t like my answer
I think its more a person per person thing i know when i play wany type of head on build i am activly trying to make the other side have a bad time i woulf call that bullying but likewise that means theres alot of killer bullies too
I think the only time I get annoyed by these bully squads are when they send me to a map with a drop off point and do the annoying boilover/exponential stuff. Even now though, I've come to realize maybe I just need to take the game to a different side of the map where they can't do it.
I dont get the argument of "how are you getting bullied if you win?" Like yea I guess I "won" but I still got head oned like 5 times and blinded at every pallet. Thats just annoying and takes the fun out of the match. Thats honestly enough to call it bullying. They're goin out of their way to antagonize the killer and piss them off. Winning isnt really the point. And even if they completelty fail at trolling, its still boring as hell because they're throwing so hard trying to farm epic funny moments rather than just playing the game normally. Also good players do go against bully squads, but like you say, they know how to counter gimmicky trolly stuff. That doesnt change the intention of the team though, it just makes it ineffective. As for the Cas/Comp thing, while I agree it isnt an end-all be-all fix to matchmaking, it does at least contextualize games in way that might reduce toxicity. Going in to causal mode with everyone silently agreeing that no one gives a shit I think would ease the hostility of the playerbase. Also Comp players also dont have to literally be tournament players they can just be super sweaty. And the sweaty players can get their own cue. Also saying people only want the other side to not sweat while they still try to win is super presumtious. I dont want the enemy team to sweat so I can get away with gimmicky stuff without being completely countered Those are just my takes tho good vid
i dont understand, what do you want then? survivors to not interact with you? you see 2 people the entire match and the split up and rush the gens immediately? how is that more fun
@@ScottJund playing the game normally is what I want them to do. I dont want to run the same loop with one survivor trying and failing to do a headon stun while another dude just flickers the flashlight. I'm barely even playing the game at that point. Its as boring as farming basically. Like yea death squad teams playing super efficently is annoying but at least shit is happening and there is like a contest happening, even if its super hard. Survivors just running in circles trying for head ons and blinds is boring, just like leatherfaces sitting in basements is boring.
Back when I played dbd, when I wanted to play casual, I played pig. People usually assume pigs that don't camp boxes are memers, and so a lot of shenanigans would occur pretty reliably.
"Bully squads" are silly imo, they'll get me mildly mad if they get a good sabo or flash save but its the pre dropping andy's and stealth players that get me mad. Searching the entire map for p3 Claudette's or playing kicking pallet simulator is the worst on maps like the game. I always appreciate players trying to loop, practicing something that i respect rather than holding w. I get where new killer are coming from as everyone at one point was in their shoes but they just need a reminder that this kind of thing becomes easier with time.
The whole point of DBD matches are to build up tension and for it to be released when you get chased unexpectedly. When survivors become more aware that there are certain ways of short cutting to the whole suspens part of dbd. It kind of makes the survivor gameplay loop pointless and everything to do with it. So then it creates these squads that their sole purpose is to annoy the killer and break the flow of the game, and then falling back on super strong items and the fact that they're in coms. I personally can enjoy a quirky squads sometimes but I wouldn't like for it to be incentivised. If you look at gens on paper they might seem boring, but the whole point of gens as I previously stated are tension building machines. DBD used to be a lot more dark and have bad line of sights making gens feel suspensful, and the the killer pool used to be smaller meaning that stealth killer were probably more common to face. Ofcourse gens are boring but not knowing when the killer is coming makes them fun IMO. But the vision of the game has been skewed by super experienced players that have the biggest ego thinking that they should get chases and only them and be put on a pedestal. In a team game where players become ego centric is very boring IMO.
I started having way more fun in DBD as killer when my motivation changed from trying to get the 4k to trying to have fun and enjoy chases with the survivors.
you'd think that bhvr would of had the time by now to have matchmaking start to feel like its actually working at this point but it's still just a clusterfuck, I play duos with my friend on survivor pretty much daily and we usually win more than we lose in any given time we play, and we'll have games where i check the killers profile and they have like 40-80 hours in the game and just get destroyed, and games where i check the killers profile, and they have hundreds or thousands, same with teammates. i love checking hours before loading into a match to get an idea sometimes, but there's literally no correlation had a game recently where i checked one of our teammates hours and they had 1600, the killer got blown out, check killers hours after the match, and they had like 120. this game literally just needs a massive map balancing overhaul, matchmaking to sort of feel like it works, and a meta shake up maybe like 1-2 times a year, and most of the complaints in this game would be solved.
I am VERY happy when the Survivors start swarming me with Flashlights, because I know full well even if they are much better than me it will take them forever to get the Generators done, meaning, A LOT of free practice for me!
this tweet kinda sounds manipulative. predroping pallets, and sitting on gens doesnt make you a non-bully squad. just like going for risky plays doesnt neceserily make you a bully squad. because it's not so much about your gameplay style but rather the attidute and the message you wanna convey. you can completely destroy the killer as a 4 man and then genuinely say something nice in the chat. will you still be a bully? i dont think so.
and yet i guarantee a large portion of the playerbase will say they were bullied in that match even if they were all nice and just simply played the game.
@@ScottJund well yeah that's true. people do that. i sometimes randomly say that i'm being "bullied" by someone even when I'm dominating them. just for memes i guess
@@ScottJund that’s victim culture that extends well beyond DBD I’m afraid.
@@chemicalimbalance7030 Yes but why are BHVR playing into that victim culture?
@@ScottJund honestly yeah the people who get worked up over this game clearly never play Smash Ultimate Quickplay
I agree that the term “bully squad” is inaccurate and overused, but my main gripe with your point is the idea that it’s all good because the killer won. i play mainly killer and also will take a bully squad over a hyperfocus team any day, but i don’t always enjoy just winning. if i’m playing killer not only to win, i want to have fun. having teams that are trying to create hook deadzones making themselves unhookable is not fun. sure i won, but i don’t enjoy having to slug a survivor who’s in a corner of the map anymore then they’re enjoying getting slugged.
guess im different. slugging a survivor to death who willingly puts themself into that position multiple times is IMMENSELY satisfying
@@ScottJund Too bad you won't be able to without it taking like half a hour.
To be fair there are always going to be some matches in literally any game you play that you won’t consider to be ‘fun’ whether you win or lose lol.
@@ScottJund but that makes winning against a “bully squad” very subjective and that should be taken into account. Sure, you might have fun chilling on stream with people and chatting while downing that survivor repeatedly until death,but not everyone is down to do that in their free time. When you don’t know you’re going against a squad who’s intent is to mess with you, you can end up wasting so much time in a match you aren’t enjoying for before you get fed-up and log off and do something else. This problem is exponentially worse the lower down the skill ladder you go and isn’t healthy to keep people playing.
Thats interesting, I'm the opposite. I'm rather play against the hyperfocus team. Even if I get trounced I learned something about the meta, learned strats good survs use, and got my mmr lowered so I'm more likely to get survs my skill level.
A "bully squad" doesnt really teach me anything but the limits of my patience. They aren't trying so I don't really learn anything about the game I'm trying to play. Finally like, the win isn't satisfying because we weren't even playing the same game really.
Maybe I'm just odd but a win where my opponent isnt really trying hardly feels like a win at all.
Unless we arent trying to win but do the halloween event thats an exception lol.
In my experience, "bullies" in dbd are the kinds of survivors who, when they find out they are better than the killer, take as many opportunities throughout the game as possible to make sure that the killer knows that - Teabagging, clicking even after mediocre plays and overall making the killer question why they are playing.
They are the same people who complain that they are vsing a nurse/blight every second match or about slow down perks as if some killers feel as though they have a choice.
Which is exactly why it boils down to a matchmaking issue. You shouldn't be going against people you are vastly better than.
@@ScottJund yeah agreed.
because of people like this, playing killer for me recently has been a huge rollercoaster and ive grew to despise the killer role, despite being a killer main for about 70% of the time ive played dbd. It's kinda at the point where I feel I have to play nurse or i dont stand a chance. Which is unfortunate because i want to play other killers and/or use more "fun" builds.
Eh. I'd argue that "they are better than killer" isn't even necessary, since sometimes some maps essentially hand feed a win to survivors like cow shed or the game.
@@kolbayada4938 yeah thats kinda what I was getting at with the "mediocre plays", like they will hold W and throw a few pallets down and think they are the shit despite there not being too much the killer could do in a timely manner.
@@ScottJund its not just a matchmaking issues, its a people issue. And people justifying these "squads" deserve the backlash.
Bully squads aren’t very frequent. Most of the time, as you said, it’s just good players. However, some of those times, you genuinely can tell with ease that they’re trying to piss you off. Flashlight clicking, teabagging every single time they stun you with a pallet, that type of stuff. Body blocking, flashlight saves, that’s just survivors trying to protect their teammate. I agree with one thing: it’s not actual bullying, and I think everyone knows that. “Bully squad” isn’t meant to imply the survivors are actually bullying you. However, they’re trying to get to you (some of them anyway), and even IF you manage to destroy them, it doesn’t mean they weren’t trying to piss you off to begin with. If someone tries to attack you in any way and you clap them back successfully, does that mean they didn’t even try? Of course it doesn’t. I agree with some premises of yours, but not others.
I hope I didn't imply they wouldn't be bully squads. I tried to very carefully choose my words and said "I don't feel like I was bullied if I won", not that they weren't what they were to begin with.
i agree with this. Swarm and his squads USUALLY aren't a bully squad. they are having fun. They aren't being excessively toxic and t-bagging or clicking. HOWEVER some of his videos are of him and his team doing that and being intentionally toxic.
@@ScottJund yeah, I understand. And I also understand your frustration when it comes to people comparing that type of behavior in a video game to a tragic phenomenon that can take people’s lives. I empathize with that. I was just constructively criticizing, as well as praising where needed, your message.
Or, you're getting pissed off, and its not necessarily that they're trying to piss you personally off?
@@noaheaston2147 I haven’t even watched a single Swarm video, it wasn’t necessarily about him, rather about some survivors that are CLEARLY displaying that type of behavior (pun intended).
I've always defined a "bully squad" as a group of players who make it their mission to ensure the person playing killer does not have fun. The kind that set up several head-ons, that teabag everytime they know they're safe, that bring map offerings to play into their builds, etc. The kind that exude unwarranted toxicity. The kind that want you to suffer just for queuing up as the other role. It's more of a mentality thing. They're also the ones guaranteed to be toxic in endgame chat even if you stomp them at 5 gens.
I disagree with Scott's statement of "That just doesn't happen" of players who have that mentality (though he did immediately walk it back by saying that there are sadists in every community - though I also think he underestimates how many there are).
I also find Scott's take on bullying kind of interesting, but I think that calling the "bully squads" as such isn't as much about how you yourself are getting bullied as the killer, but on what the survivors are like. In response to Scott's analogy of: "if someone shoves you one time, that's a dick move, but if you keep getting shoved repeatedly, that's bullying", I don't disagree. However, if someone shoves a bunch of people they think of as lesser than them, that person is a bully.
Not to mention that there is more than one bully in DBD.
Yeah, one guy is shoving you. Then another. Then another. Then another.
But that's apparently not bullying because they only got the chance to shove you once?
Im not sure i agree with Swarm. Whenever ive watched his videos his group is always around the killer doing those fun plays sure, but there is also always someone doing gens in the background. If gens are so boring why do they actually do all the gens and try and escape? Why not just fool around and let the killer kill them in the end? Or why do they all quick switch to flashlights at the end if they just want to have fun? If its just fun then show the killer what they are dealing with no? I think its definitely a moot point but there are ways to have fun in the game without constantly shitting on the other side and then laughing at them on your stream
idk ive gone against swarms team before and every time its a fun match for me. like i said, its more a matchmaking issue
They last second switch to prevent the killer from equipping lb/franklins. It's kinda shady but I mean, it is what it is.
Also, the gens thing: a lot of the time they aren't in a full swf so it's the random(s) doing the gens in the background. They can't exactly force the random to not do gens so that their gameplay is morally acceptable.
You switch at six. Those are the rules.
" Or why do they all quick switch to flashlights at the end if they just want to have fun?"... to have fun, duh. if the killer brings franklins and lightborn, then you just sit on gens for 5 minutes and leave. very boring
@@ScottJund You're being subjective, your personal feeling or bias doesn't make the issue go away and when you say it's a match making issue it's really not these players lose MMR to do their videos if every killer was of a certain level they wouldn't have any content it's been proven time and time again that when these "god survivors" play against actual experienced players on strong killers they aren't able to do all the "bullying" actions. Hell if they showed themselves doing this against experienced Nurses and Blights or even a Pinhead I'd be impressed but they don't they do it against mid tier inexperienced killers for content aka bullying. Call a spade a spade even if the spade doesn't feel they are a spade.
I ran into a half-bully, half-matchmaking disaster squad in one of my first ~10 killer games. I was barely rank 18. Half the team were randoms who showed they were way better than me by winning every chase, never getting hooked, and finishing gens at a good speed. They did their objectives, opened the doors, and left.
The other two were clearly friends. They were constant around me, t-bagging and healing behind pallets, clicking flashlights for no reason, endlessly blinding me, and using that tractor (or whatever it is) on Coldwind Farm in ways I'd genuinely never seen (might've been an exploit). By the time the doors were open I'd given up entirely, but still they waited at the doors until the timer ran out. They laughed at me in post-game chat.
There's absolutely a difference between being unable to do anything, and being actively sought out and pestered. The former doesn't keep me from playing like the latter does.
I think it's kind of semantics to argue about whether the commonly used term fits or not. Regardless of what you call them, there are people who actively make the game unfun for others.
I sometimes get games with two players who are working together to save each other, etc. like you describe, except in my cases I can just target the two randoms, get them out the game, then I have all the time in the world to chase the remaining guys because no gens are getting done.
I think most people just call it bullying because, as Killer, sometimes there's just this feeling of helplessness that most people compare to being bullied because you can't do anything against it.
Like, even if the survivors don't teabag or anything, I still feel like I'm being bullied when I play an M1 killer on the game, or just hold W after getting injured to a god loop on any map. That's just how terrible some maps are.
Edit:
See Otz' newest video, "the match that finally broke me". Perfectly ecapsulates what I mean.
Even Otz got agitated, because map RNG was terrible and he played an M1 killer.
The survivors weren't even doing anything to bully him.
Precisely. The feeling of helplessness of playing an M1 killer against survivors you know you cannot hit unless they royally fuck up is frustrating. Map design seems to love giving W Keyers their next pallet to predrop at the perfect time when M1 killers start to catch up.
@@Justmonika6969 That's what half of these dog sh*t maps are.. hit them once and they just run endlessly from pallet to pallet. The only way you win is by tunneling someone out or camping a 3 generator if they don't f*ck up.
in my opinion a "bully squad" can form mid game. you can have your standard bully squad that brings an offering for dead dawg to camp the main building to use their head-on but there's also the bully squad that forms when the first 4 gens were a breeze and now it's seemingly just about prolonging the killer's bad game and proving how unafraid you are. i also think generally being stunned and blinded all the time just isn't very fun for most people, and those are unfortunately the most satisfying/rewarding mechanics the survivors have besides do gens -> teabag -> exit.
If you were better. This wouldn’t have happened. Git gud
...in case anyone else is convinced that dead by daylight is a perfect game where skilled plays always get rewarded with victory, see otz's video he posted recently on a 7-minute endgame as dredge vs a group of players with no reason to open the exit gate thanks to endless medkit charges, or any number of bubbas winning the game by camping at 5 gens.
Swarm is also the guy who said on Stream "If you use Basement, you're literally a bad killer"
People saying killer can’t use basement now? Can’t have shit in the fog.
Yea, people making claims in absolutes usually stick to their guns because they dont want to be viewed as ridiculous.
Nuance is sadly a long lost skill amongst many internet denizens.
I dont like swarm . He's cringe asf
tbf basement is usually the wrong play, because it wastes your time walking all the way down there when hooking outside gets you closer to your next objective
Bully squads to me are 3 man swfs that harass their 4th solo queue member. Literally the only time I encounter them is when I'm being body blocked by them as survivor
Thank you! This is the truth. 3-Man SWFs are toxic and are the worst. I have been harassed several times by toxic teammates like this
This right here! Many times, other survivors are the absolute worst in DBD.
the amount of times i’ve been farmed and/or left to die on hook due to getting matched with a 3-man swf lmaooo. there were several instances before keys got nerfed where a 3-man would leave through the hatch as i was on hook lmfao.
Scott "Online bullying isn't real just shut your monitor off lmao" Jund with another hot take
i know you're memeing but you probably shouldn't make light of actual online bullying which is absolutely real
Im sorry but flashlightclicking and t bagging or "gen rushing" is not bullying man. Cyberbullying follows you outside of games its no joke. Having an annoying game is not being bullied
@@FreddieBM He elaborated on exactly that in the video. Real online bullying is what people sometimes do outside the game by haunting their victims on socials or their streams, which is absolutely an issue.
Teabagging and flashlight clicking isn’t online bullying
@@bodewelsh4918 That's what he says...
Otzdarva made a video a short while back about bully squads and he makes some good points. They *can* be beaten, you just have to sweat and think as far ahead as possible. If they use "dirty tactics" like trying to get your attention at strong loops, head-on spam, flashlight spam, etc., just use dirty tactics too. Confirm someone is on dead hook as early as possible and kill them when it matters (likely as soon as you get the chance). Assume they'll be on comms and operate in a way that ruins their attempts for comms. Like pausing above a downed survivor to bait saves and then go after who comes for the rescue long enough to guarantee you can pick the downed one up. There's ways around it, and sometimes you will lose anyway, but it's not a guarantee. And if you're new and the enemy is far from new, blame matchmaking.
In my experience "bully squads" are usually the result of bad matchmaking but also sometimes the result of survivors taking stronger things than the killer. If a body-blocking hag goes into a match where the survivors have 4 flashlights and meta perks then they'll typically feel like they're getting destroyed even if they are playing relatively well.
Last bully squad I went against I got a 4K and it was very unfun. The match result doesn’t always determine how much fun I had. I’ve had 1-2Ks against regular teams that I enjoyed way more. I’d rather that than locker saves galore.
So... killers can tunnel and camp and use the excuse that its not their job to make sure the survivors have fun. Which is facts. Which btw only 1 of 5 players have fun. But survivors can't have fun which is 4 of the 5 players in the match? 😂 goes both ways dude. No rule book my dude.
This is a thought I had too. Why does a squads "bully level" get determined by if the killer wins or not? If I'm going against a bully squad and win, I don't feel good that I got 4 kills at 4 gens. I feel annoyed that I had to spend like 10 extra minutes just being stunned and blind and stuff. I might just want to play a game normally where I actually feel that the survivors want to get out and theres a threat of me losing. Otherwise, it just feels like a boring annoying easy win.
@@NotJarrod but that's how it goes sometimes. So it's being a bully if you are in a squad and just want to have fun? Not caring if you escape or not? Again, hypocrisy for killer mains to say this, yet, a bubba can down someone and face camp them till they die, only get a 1 or 2k, and surviors are supposed to be happy that they escaped without even a chase? Goes both ways man. And you're more likely to get a killer that plays like that then a squad that just goes for stuns and blinds and no gen pressure.
@@thegreenroom3522 It's the same as when people complain in COD about corner camping with shotguns and nades, or noobtubes. It's a gameplay difference which there really are no rules. You don't have to win if you don't want to, you can just sit in the corner the whole game. But when people get killed by the same guy over and over, suddenly there's a problem.
As a random player, there's not much I can do about it if I really don't want to play with groups like this besides go afk or quit and eat a disconnect timer. If this situation is something that the devs go "well we don't intend the game to be played like this", they should address the fact that a lot of survivors don't feel like holding the M1 button down after 6 years of doing the same thing and are driven to this playstyle in order to spice it up and have some fun.
@@thatonedudeguy8108 facts. The fact that there is something called toxic squad is kinda a joke as it is. A survivor can't remove the killer from game like a killer can with a survivor.
I think there is a disconnect here between the Streamer and "player" point of view. The reason why "bully squads" get so much to your average killer's mind is because they're on a 1v4 and they feel "ganged up" on. Depending on the type of person they are, that can get them anxious, annoyed, or get them to, quite literally, feel bullied. Streamers have chat interaction so the feeling of being alone against a majority doesn't really happen, I think.
And Scott can deal with those squads, he's very experienced. Most of the people complaining about bully squads aren't 10k hour streamers.
In my experience "bully squads" are pretty fun to go against. It's usually a bunch of people who just want to have some fun and they don't really care about the output of the match. They try to pull of some of the dumb stuff that rarely works and if you don't loose your mind you have a high chances of winning. Just pay attention and use your brain.
i never understand why people would prefer a super efficiency split up 4 man that does gens in 4 minutes over a team trying to get 40 head ons.
Plus killers are ridiculously entitled right now how many times do you have a full team going into a game? The things survivors have to bring to be a force is the actual most meta shit and a full coordinated team and killers just literally stare at the very first face they've caught. Fair? Is that a "game"?
I think it might be a psychological effect. It’s the feeling of being held down by two guys while their two other friends beat you up but against a efficient squad at least their not in your face about it for the most part.
@@LilHaze117 some killers (not all) think every match is a 4 man.. lol
I felt the "bully squad" problem when I was a new player, but now I'm in the camp that enjoys that style of play. Sometimes I end up wrecked by good sabo plays, and sometimes I steamroll because half the players aren't doing gens and acting predictably, but in both cases I think it's a blast.
Hey Scott, agree with almost everything you say here, except for the thing you say at the beginning about people who try to annoy the killer as their main objective. I really don't think that just because you win the match it automatically undoes all the annoying things they did to you during the match. Like if I get into a fight and win, but I hurt my hand in the process, my hand still hurts after I win. Just because you win the match does not mean that all the annoying stuff/trolling they did is now invalid, I still had to sit through them making the game awful for 10-15 minutes. And while that doesn't make them a "bully squad", it still absolutely sucks to go against and it takes a lot of the fun out of the game, at least for me personally
To me getting bullied is both a giving and receiving thing. The person has to be giving the bullying and the victim has to be receptive of it. If the person on the receiving end genuinely doesnt care and their life is not made worse in any way, I don't consider them to have been bullied then.
@@ScottJund Thanks for the reply, and I agree. They haven't been bullied, but I still say the survivors are being toxic (note: "toxic"/"toxicity" is also very subjective). Is there a way to stop this sort of behavior? Nope. But do I still want it to stop regardless of it being nearly impossible for it to actually happen? Absolutely. The best way that one could theoretically solve this issue is as you said, to improve the matchmaking system and make it so less experienced players don't get matched against advanced players. Love your vids, hope you keep making DBD content.
One of my favorite games to this day was a 4-man of helmet Dwights on the game constantly doing the stupidest shit, it's way better than the average match.
That's a nice opinion, however the squads you've described aren't usually triple downing on toying with you until they lose. They can and often do play optimally and mess with the killer only when they feel safe to do so.
So generally regular bully squads games are going as games against optimal squads where you get genrushed (minus occasional aggressive plays when there's an opportunity for that) and then, when you're unlikely to win they start running around with you doing the thing when you don't have realistic chances of making a comeback.
As analogy, remember that funny scene from Tom&Jerry where Tom figured out the reach of the leashed dog, drew a line and taunted it from within a safe zone. Same story here - they find(create) a safe zone/line from which they know killer can't hurt them and toy with them.
Wannabe bully squads or notorious "we play for fun with friends" don't usually care about that ofc, but they too generally tend to do most gens first before having fun because generally "just having fun with friends" doesn't work when they also die to said killer.
If the killer camps, tunnels and only gets 1-2K, were you really being camped and tunneled?
The answer is yes, because it's not about whether you win or not, but how frustrating/boring you make it for the other side to play.
How exactly is constant engagement on both sides boring?
The problem is camping and tunneling are objective things. You can always claim and see exactly when that is happening. "Bullying" varies from 4 man head on squads to literally just 4 random good survivors depending on who you ask.
On the flip side, I find matches in which survivors play extremely efficiently and split up, finishing the game in 4 minutes FAR more frustrating than a bunch of goobers trying to stun me as they die.
@@ScottJund 4 man SWF is already pretty much the easy mode of DbD, so them using a busted map offering to compensate for "goofing off" doesn't really affect their chances to win by that much. That is especially prominent when playing lower tier killers who already feel helpless against well-coordinated teams.
Scott is unnaturally good at keeping cool and not letting things bother him and I think he really sucks at understanding he is the outlier. It's a good skill to have and it's something everyone should work on getting better at, but most people aren't there yet and his advice is always just "lol just don't let it annoy you?" which is really dumb and misses the point entirely.
@@william4996 im not anything special though. i dont have some iron resillience or anything. im just a dude who realizes its a video game
Scott's opinion on being bullied is so laid back 3:49 that its hard to imagine anyone else is realistically just as chill when they play. Props for not giving a shit if they're being sadists right in your face.
Controversial opinion, the players hacking the game and targeting specific players, those are the actual Bully Squads.
I had a game when I was still very new at DBD where I was learning Hillbilly and I went up against 4 bill players. They exploited map terrain, they utilized loops in ways I was not able to wrap my head around and most importantly- they never touched a single generator. I ended up winning yes but after nearly an hour of struggling and pure negativity. They teabagged, flashlight clicked me and were extremely rude in end of game chat.
It's in my opinion easiest to dismiss bullying when you are more experienced in a game and inversely overlook the fact that any new player to a game like this going through something like that is likely to just quit the game entirely. While I agree "bullying" is overblown, it definitely exists in DBD. And I appreciate Scott's take on the severity of bullying/harassment. However, to ignore it happening in games as a matter of it not affecting him personally or relating to his experience with bullying, it's inadvertantly downplaying what other people go through. "Just close the game" is the same logic as "just get off facebook" or any other similar argument. People should not be forced to avoid spaces and the victim is never to blame.
I digress, *bullying* is highly overblown in DBD and for the most part is a much lesser problem than it seems. Scott is correct to identify most cases as oversensitivity. It certainly does happen though in DBD and other similar games.
I disagree with your assessment. I think bully squads do exist. If survivors brought killers to RPD during the time when you couldn't hook from the library provide just one example of intentionally inflicting a negative experience to the killer? 4 identical claudettes who rotate in and out while coordinating head-ons, flashbangs, flashlights, etc., regardless of skill differential, be another case (especially of such behavior after they've powered gates). It's rare, and I can think of maybe only a half dozen times where I've come across actual concerning behavior, but the dismissal of it's existence seems incorrect. Your view and opinion differs to at least some degree likely because of your level of skill and experience with the game. Have a wonderful day :)
I'm not sure how you say you disagree with my assessment and then immediately agree with me. I agree bully squads exist too. I say that in the video.
@@ScottJund Your assessment at 1:42 is that bully squads don't have anything to do with the players but has to do with imbalanced matchmaking.
My response is that bully squads is specifically about player behavior and isn't about imbalance matchmaking.
Imbalanced matchmaking and player behavior/bully squads are very easily distinguishable based upon the actions of the players, specifically actions like tbagging post pallet drops, ghostface tbags, etc. Survivors who are just good and not out to make killers' lives worse are generally pretty obvious because they're just straight up playing well (which is again why you experience may differ from the casual player).
Thanks again for your videos :)
I feel like the real “bully squads” are comp teams who play super efficient, pre drop every pallet, Gen rush, never save their teammates or heal, etc. and get out of the game after 5 minutes
Taking all the best stuff into pub games. Got a 2k against a comp team as blight and they were just so upset they didn't just auto win the game like usual. And the pre drop is so boring, my god. Would have been a 3-4k without 4 unbreakable's guess that prepares me for next patch though, if it happens.
And plus t-bag, clicking and pointing. Than thets annoying as hell
Good players do go against bully squads though, they just are able to finish the game fast so it doesn’t feel like it. Also when some of the biggest content creators are going to extensive lengths to dodge and avoid the same cheaters who stalk them I think that does count as bullying. Especially since things like doxing can easily follow them out of the game. I do agree that most people called bully squads aren’t out to be harmful to those they play against, but there are people who play just to be a dick to those they play against and that’s on both sides of the player base not just survivors.
i've had a few absolutely miserable games playing dbd where the survivors are intentionally doing their best to not let me play the game. bully squads exist. yes, bad match-making also exists. they are not the same. there is a difference between doing well because your squad was matched against a bad killer and purposefully going out of your way to create hook deadzones, survivors that literally can't be picked up, etc. just because you don't find those situations unfun doesn't mean "bully squads" don't exist or there aren't people that make the game absolutely horrible to play for others. this feels to me like a "well, i'm not being bullied, so bullying doesn't happen" situation
I remember my first "bully squad" experience, four flashlights all burnt map offerings to spread out hooks and I was doing meme wraith. We ended up on midwich. They immediately realized I was playing with them and after they basically finished burning out their flashlights they were basically all dead with five gens left.
I felt so bullied.
i had a crystallizing moment when i got a seal team six bully squad and remembered your video explaining that no gens get done and eventually flashlights run out, etc. rather than my usual leave, i stuck it out even though it did get on my nerves. i held fast to just keeping my eye on the generators while trying to navigate the bullshit they were doing, and i ended up with a 4k at 4 gens. it is a win, and if wins are what you care about, then yeah i totally agree you love to see them because you know it's an easy win, but if you're not playing to win, and your build is something for funs/cool plays as a higher priority than winning, and the whole game is you not getting to do that because the other team is, in effect, throwing, that's still frustrating, even if winning soothes it. but i really fundamentally do not agree that there aren't people out there playing well out of their skill range and then following up with shit talking in post game chat just to make someone feel powerless, then even if you leave they'll post on your profile if it's not private/friends only comments, i even had someone go as far as leave a comment on a screenshot from 2019 because my settings were public for them at the time. i do agree that people do use the term a bit too freely, either in the context of using it as a term for survivors just playing well, or throwing to do sabo plays etc, that that stuff isn't bullying, and that it's the post game stuff that crosses the line.
I would say bully squads are where they harass the killer while completing objective, often against inexperienced killers, i once had a match where they completed the gens and held me in the match harrassing me until the time ran out on the end game collapse
I agree it's an overused term. It's only really a bully squad when they BM at every opportunity and then tell you how terrible you are in the end game chat (along with other things).
Though, a wide disparity for skill can result the survivors deciding to prolong the game with a novice killer getting increasingly frustrated while the survivors run circles around them instead of leaving. Which leads to the term being thrown out even if they were not necessarily mean.
The aside to talk about real, actual bullying was very sweet and highly appreciated. With that said, I feel like the focus on terminology in this video felt a bit unnecessary. I don't imagine the phrase 'bully squad' was ever anything more than a catchy name some person/s came up with that ended up sticking, much like how many people refer to groups of players in Souls game invasions as 'gankers' regardless of their actual intent to gank. "Head On squad" just doesn't pack the same punch.
3:22 There aren’t people going into this game playing with friends with the sole purpose of going “hey let’s ruin this killer’s day” that just doesn’t happen…
3:32 Ok that happens
ONCE YOU SPEAK YOU ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO RECTIFY A MISTAKE YOU JUST SAID. ALL THINGS ARE SET IN STONE FOR ETERNITY.
@@ScottJund WRITE A SCRIPT NOOB!
@@ScottJund Dude, you are the one editing the video...
@@kabutoclone2 i didnt realize every conversation had to be a carefully pre-written thesis, sorry for the 9 seconds of life changing error
You know "bullying" has a definition, right? It's a fairly broad term, and in the right situation dbd bullying can definitely fall under the umbrella. It's kinda like the term "violence" for example.
"Bullying: the behaviour of a person who hurts or frightens someone smaller or less powerful, often forcing that person to do something they do not want to do" - Cambridge dictionary
i..am not seeing how the cambridge dictionary definition fits into getting teabagged
Kasandra, grow up
@@ScottJund
" the behaviour of a person" - I think we can all agree most toxic players qualify
"who hurts or frightens someone smaller or less powerful"- if the teabagger is a considerably better player, this qualifies
"often forcing that person to do something they do not want to do" - DC or keep playing an unenjoyable game
@@ass640 What does Scott using a word wrong and making a video out of it has to do with maturity?
No, bullying in dbd isn't as bad as targeted bullying. yes, it's still bad.
I usually agree with you but i feel like you yourself are just better at the game than the average player to properly play against it vs the ppl that just want to get on an kill a survivor or two
I agree, it's nearly impossible to be bullied in DBD in the literal sense, unless someone brings RPD, that's bullying and mentally harmful.
I feel like "bully squads" are focused around newer/bad killers. I had moments where survivors are acting normal (think they're SWF) and as soon as they knew I was bad at chase they stopped doing gens/trying to win and just kept being toxic around me (flashlight clicking, t-bagging, gestures mid-chase, etc). So I do get why for these people who are good that "bully squads dont exist" because they have an understanding of the game, bully squads do exist for newer players which matchmaking is responsible for.
I agree with Swarm in the tweet.
Gimme the interactive "bully squad" that actually tries to play the game with me any day over people who will just hide, run in a straight line, and sit on a generator every game. Hit me with head-ons, DS/Unbreakable combos, flashlight saves, sabos, and crazy balanced landing plays or whatever all match long please. I mean it. It's 1000x more fun than Prove Thyself, BNP, and stealth players.
Also, huge agree on "when people say they want to play casually, what they really mean is they want the other team to play casually."
Everyone I know that hates MMR because they say it made the game "too sweaty, every match" really just misses being able to stomp people without trying. Every one of them.
“bully squad” is a term mostly used colloquially. I’ve heard it before where people try to dismiss someone’s argument by talking about how it’s not actually “bullying”, but that’s similar to being in an argument with someone on the internet and correcting their spelling or grammar instead of address anything they might be bringing up. What “bully squad” means in DBD is a group of survivors that actively try to make a killer not have a good time, often times neglecting their win condition. And yes it is very prevalent.
I’m a survivor main with about 3k hrs on DBD. Maybe 500 of those hours are on killer? I’m not the best. But bully squads are so prevalent that even in my short time on killer I’ve run into 1-2 bully squads every 15-20 matches. I’m not talking about survs who just destroy me either. I’m talking about survs who teabag me at every pallet on a busted map like Cowshed where there’s not much I can do about it with Wraith.
I’ll relate it to a boxing match. If you get into the ring with someone and their only intention is punching you in the dick, they can. They won’t win the match, but their objective isn’t to win. It’s to make you not have a good time. And the real culprits are immaturity and DBD having abusable mechanics.
If “gens with friends” is boring, I’m sorry but that’s the main point of the game and if you find that boring you and your friends should play a different game.
“People aren’t going to play with the express intent to ruin someone’s day, it just doesn’t happen-“ Scott. Have you seen the community? Do you know how many racial slurs and homophobic slurs I have been called and seen, by people who try their hardest to not just win, but try and piss me off? The ones who love their clickies, and tbags, and showboating. The ones who call you trash, even if you’re new and still learning a lot. It’s been happening somewhat frequently to me, and it’s just disheartening as hell. There’s mean people out there, man.
Finished the vid a bit ago, yeah I get fully what you mean now. Fun at other people’s expense in a game is one thing; it’s another to make it personal and go after players repeatedly afterwards, which I’ve had happen to me more than I’d like. I’ve been genuinely bullied a lot irl, and it’s just so tiresome to play games and have to deal with it in something that should be enjoyable. I don’t mind the “Bully Squads” (boil over/flashies) that don’t take the match seriously.
7:00 IMO Scott, a person can be a “bully” and bully separate people on separate, singular occasions. I think it’s more of an individual thing-someone can be a bully because of how they treat, perceive and belittle others, while not singling out a target. Though, I do agree with you that “bully” is misused in “bully squad.” And, on “bully squads,” the only think I would consider a “bully squad” is a group of generally good survivors smurfing as a swf and trying to play against new killers in order to play around with them and make their game unenjoyable. I think a “bully squad” would have to be targeting weaker players if they were to exist at all. I bet people do this, I wouldn’t be surprised at least if they do, but I know it’s not a common thing-and “bully squad” definitely isn’t used by people in those actual situations.
I love getting "bully squads" as killer.
100% fun chases and constant interaction with survivors with gens not getting done?
I'd take a 'bully squad' over 4 survivors with hyperfocus who just try to do gens the entire game as fast as possible.
I would like a casual mode where perks are randomized and no items/addons are allowed. for the ranked mode anything goes.
Unrelated to Bully Squads. but I completely disagree with the whole "the other side isn't out to make you miserable" take. Even if it's the vocal minority, I've seen way too many people who genuinely hate the killer or survivors. and these people are super prevalent on twitch and twitter. I also have run into a few people while playing SWF with randoms, that go out of their way to make the killer as miserable as possible because they gain some strange gratification from it. Toxicity runs rampant in a lot of communities but its rooted deep within DBD. Some people revel in the fact that they upset the killer/ survivors. and I can say that even I enjoy the feeling I get knowing the killer/ survivors got upset at me, especially if they were playing like a dick
I really think it’s the extreme variables in killer/map power and balance that’s the issue rather then match makin at this current point
Unfortunately I've run into squads that do both. They have equal amounts of gen pressure and at least 1 or 2 of them are running around trying to do pallet stuns and flashlight saves and things like that. They are hyper coordinated with comms And in the post game chat tell you to "get better."
And when you're still new to the game trying to figure out how things work that is a really shitty feeling.
My biggest issue is the play style of coordination. Sure I play with my friends a lot as well but when people are like synchronizing their watches and their builds to try and win something over on the killer, To me it just kind of feels like metagaming.
This game in my opinion is trying to sell you on the experience of being in something akin to a slasher film. either as the slasher or a survivor. And when the survivors are supercoordinated with a telepathic link to each other that the killer cannot hear that kind of goes against the spirit of the game in my opinion. I'm not saying people can't play with their friends in discord and stuff. But when people have that kind of try hard playstyle, It just seems imbalanced to me.
Is there a reason of why they don't add ranked and unranked game mode?
While t-bagging in a game isn't bullying, it can feel that way to people who are being bullied elsewhere and are trying to use the game as an escape.
ehhh, t-bagging isn't automatically bullying, but it can, and has, been used by people to make killers/other survivors feel bad on purpose, same as flashlight clicking/point etc etc
@@samuels6135 I suppose I could have said "even if you believe t'bagging isn't bullying" rather than simply stating it isn't.
My main point is that comparatively harmless actions can feel much worse to people depending on surrounding circumstances.
People often dismiss trigger/content warnings, but you never know what's going on in people's lives, and what's harmless to you can be devastating to them.
I will say, while you are right about the difference in being bullied and someone being a dick, the term “bully squad” could still be very accurate. If a group of 4 people go into a game with the intent of possible off the killer by teabagging every time they get a stun and flashlight clicking every chance they get, they’re being a dick with the intent of ruining the killer’s experience. And while it may be a one time experience between the squad and the killer, the group probably does it repeatedly.
And I would absolutely describe someone who goes around and harasses people with the intent of making them miserable, as a bully.
What people consider a bully squad is usually friends playing the game and having a good laugh, and most of the things “bully squads” do are ineffective against experienced players
I think it might be best defined as those matches where the playstyle of one side goes against the enjoyment of the other side. That might be the most general description that would also explain why players that are unphased by "bully squads" don't perceive them as such.
I agree with the point that one should just turn off the screen and do something else if they get tilted. I would concede, but sadly that's not an option. I say everyone is responsible for their own enjoyment, which is why I just stand in a corner if the playstyle of the other team gets to me. They win, I lose, next match.
Tbf the one thing you're omiting on the description of bully squad is toxicity too, "they're just having fun with friends" doesn't work when the egc, or even steam profiles, etc... is either insulting the killer for being too easy to beat, or for beating them.
Oh and whats this "oh they're all busy bullying the killer so they'll lose as no one does gens", thats just wrong, from seeing friends play, and myself, these types of people will always have at the very very least, 1 guy that will go for gens so they'll still get progress done while the other 3 dick around the killer.
And ye no shit you'd rather go vs them, you got 7-8k hours and can deal with them way more easily(tho i'd argue that them using RPD, Gideon, or eerie of crows offerings would still make your match not as fun as you describe it), try and put yourself in the position of someone learning yet. The matchmaking ofc will mess up the new guy, but that doesnt mean the term suddently doesn't exist.
From experience, since you mentioned it,and i've actually got bullied at school years ago, (can't say it was something horrid as i've seen people have it worse ofc), but my 2 cents here, feels kinda weird how you know bullying affects people, but then disregard other peoples and how they might feel as "it's not as bad as actual bullying", like, yes, its not as bad as what irl bullying can get, but just saying "lmao it doesnt count you shouldnt feel bad" feels kinda like youre putting the blame here on the victim. I'm sure it wasn't the intention, but again, you're approaching this with the perspective of someone with a shitton of time and knowing how this goes. Yes its a game and most of us know that its just randos, people being salty, etc..., but it aint just someone pressing control, i had friends that had people stalk them for weeks and months all over different platforms, from the egc chat, to steam profile, to twitter, to streams they tried to do, it was nasty
Throwback to that one time i got a 4 man swf that burnt an erye offering with 2 toolboxes 1 beefy medkit and 1 flashlight that spammed "ez" postgame after I got 1k while I was playing my third ever hag match
'Bully squad' is synonymous with 'sore winner'. Those are the sorts of people that, when they find out they have an advantage over the other side, they twist the knife further to make sure the other side knows they're no longer in control of the situation. There is intent. This kind of goes back to your videos on defining "toxicity".
I've been pretty good about not caring about the outcome of games or how many points I get. I do get frustrated when things don't go my way, like anyone else would, but I don't let that dictate the next game. Or the next game after that. I am the first person in the game to start memeing around and doing dumb shit like starting chases with the survivor on my shoulder that decided to give up 3 seconds into the game because they didn't like the killer I was playing (not nurse, for the record). Generally, when people see me goofing around like that, they follow suit. There's a release of tension that I aim for that helps people realize they're playing a fuckin' game to have fun.
Scott Jund coming in hot with the informative video on how to bully someone. Thanks, it really helped me a lot with my bullying endeavors.
I smite you with an oversized stick sir
I mean considering how he and his gang of cronies treat Tru3..yeah he's been doing it the whole time.
ew, a tru3 fan.
If any form of pain is involved the Phrase "Go touch grass" is compleatly inapropriate. I know you say it to often to shut down an argument but that does not make it apropriate. No the Squads are Not Sadist. You dont need to be a Sadist to have your fun with ruining someones day. Empathy is a thing we all have to learn. It Just becomes much Harder If you cant see the face of the Person that you are kicking for your enjoyment. I have been on both Sides of bulliing in my Life. First as the Perpetrator later as the Victim. If i am online and i meet a group of such malevolent mental teenagers that find enjoyment in ganging up on someone and go out of their way to make the next half hour as shitty as possible for someone else - i remind myself that compassion and a healthy way of dealing with each other is hard enough IRL and they most likely dont understand what they are doing. If you - Like me happen to meet them and you have made real life experience with bulling... You might have some thowbacks. I play the game since 2016 (i guess) and i quit it for around a year because of abusive SWFs that did not even attempt to play the game.
i’d probably consider the positions pity of the voices that comment of the game. they are always career players that are excellent. some of this is totally on, but waffling on the semantics of bullying is not helpful to a community that does seem at times to be hell bent on making someone upset. should they be? who knows, but most don’t have your skill and i could imagine their frustration at just not being good then being clowned on. i’ve watched that swarm dude play and some other loopers and a key desire seems to be the ability to have a laugh at someone else’s expense not having a fun match for all. ur right, perspective is needed, touching grass is needed,,, but like, i think it’s also okay to sympathize with ppl really struggling to find joy in their favorite game bc ppl are actively trying to upset them.
I play oni. The most fun matches I ever have are when I can use my power a lot because survivors are not afraid and are very active. Usually happens when there’s a streamer and I’ll go say hey, and their rarely ever malicious
Think I’ve only ever run into one “bully squad” in my entire time playing DBD and it was a group of 4 Dwight’s in identical red outfits; 7 minutes into the game I had 2 hooks and was 5 gens down but because of the general fun and funny vibe they were giving off with the most stupid and bold plays that somehow worked, I had a great time. I chatted to them in the post game lobby for 10 minutes and I think a lot of complaints about DBD can simply be boiled down to attitude and being bored with the game. Just play, take it less seriously and honestly even when you’re getting destroyed you can see the humour or fun in it and have some great convos after
Some of my most fun matches have been against 4 man sabo squads that took me several gens down before I could even get my first hook in because they were there to do pallet/flashie saves or hook sabos/blocks. Except maybe the first time I hit one, I won every single one of those matches because they prioritize saves over gens and the back and forth is so fun to play through.
The least fun ones were the guys who knew exactly how many pallets they could pre-drop and tea-bag behind while their squad pounded gens. I mean it feels bad, but ultimately it's just them trying to get you tilted while taunting you and you don't really have to let that affect you.
I love 'bully squads', they come up with new fun strategies instead of afking on gens, where I need to adapt to counter them. The games also last long enough to give me a very good chance to win since they don't care about escaping and it's a fun overall experience.
If I can't get hooks because they constantly are sabo'ing or trying to go for saves/blocks and they all die from bleed out and I still end up with no hooks. Yeah that's bullying. I was denied not only BP for hook states but also Pips for ranking up. Saying it doesn't exist is pretty loaded in of itself.
I do think that the term Bullying means something else in dbd context. Nobody is trying to compare it to actual RL bullying
“Bully squads” are by far the most fun games. Tons of survivor interaction.
As someone who has gotten very close to the edge earlier in life due to constant childhood bullying and still deals with social deficiencies that will never quite heal, I want to say something I've wanted to say for a long time to you Scott whenever you discuss things like this. Because like how you say it pisses you off that people compare the two, it really pisses me off in the way you talk about this, exactly because you downplay people that compare the two, because of my own history and understanding of what it means to be bullied.
While I agree with your initial premise that if you're new to the game, you're likely to misinterpret good players and harmless banter for bully squads. However, the experience of 'true' bully squads gets a lot closer to the real deal than you might imagine, and I do think you are being too unempathetic with reactions like "No action in game can be considered bullying" "Go touch grass". Going online and playing video games is a very frequent form of escapism for bully victims, and one of the things I attribute to not losing myself back then. They provide a safe place to go where you have a higher expectation not to be judged or singled out. Telling someone this, is basically asking them to become a rock and not interact with people at all. A bully victim needs to take many leaps of faith to find positive social experiences to really get through things like bullying, and telling them this is very counterproductive in my eyes.
DBD for new players, just straight up sucks at doing that, and so I definitely feel for anyone working through these issues and then picks up DBD. I honestly would advise them not to, if I had the chance. Despite DBD being a perfectly fine game once you get the hang of things.
Your words are very reminiscent to me of the many 'advices' I've gotten to deal with my bullying as a child. "Oh, just go somewhere else", "Just walk away when you see that group", "Just say inside during breaks". It simply does not work and just causes the bully victim to seal themselves off. And most of all, the encounter will eventually still come, perhaps even harsher than if the 'advice' had been ignored. And even worse, just like the bullies behavior is more effective against them despite the fact that it shouldn't, so are bad advice and unempathetic comments! It will make them feel shame for voicing their concerns, because apparently their issues aren't that bad, and they're just being sensitive. It teaches them that they should suck it up, and seal themselves off. This can definitely be a contributor to someone falling into a depression or worse.
Bully victims are often isolated from normal socialization, and as such, they are often more alone than others. Because of that, things that downplay someone's confidence, like tbagging, flashlight clicking, can hit a lot harder and potentially cause the person to break down. Yes, they *ought* not to hurt the confidence of someone. But for that you need strong self assurance, which is exactly what a bully breaks down in bully victims, and so a bully victim is more likely to still be bothered seriously by that encounter. They have not built up resilience to shrug that kind of thing off as easily. They might think about the encounter for days and feel anxiety as they question if the next game will be just as bad. The people you are saying are taking things too seriously, might very well be bully victims or victims of other abuse, and who feel like their legitimate feelings are being disregarded. In part, I've always dislike this about the way you talk about these kinds of things, and it almost stopped me from watching you when I first found you despite otherwise having a really chill, well analyzed, carefree attitude otherwise.
Yes, bad DBD encounters are not systematic bullying, but they can be very much akin to the individual steps a bully takes to break down a victim, and your argument that it needs to be a repeated offense before it can be described by people as bullying is simply playing semantics in my eyes. In the moment, it can feel just as devastating as a single encounter with a real bully. And what you're saying is basically "well they didn't use the perfect words to describe the situation, so any negativity and misery they got from that situation wasn't as bad!". There is simply more than one kind of bullying, and their effects should not be disregarded: changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/bullying/types_bullying.htm
You can both be bullying someone, while being a dick to them, they are not mutually exclusive.
I quit DBD the first time after I bought the game exactly because of that, because it just brought up too much bad memories and made me feel again what I never wanted to feel again. I did eventually pick the game up again, but I seriously contemplated quitting again because it was the same terrible experience as before. It took me a lot mental effort to reach the critical mass to be consistently good enough not to ever be caught off guard by bully squads anymore (real or misinterpreted). I feel that those feelings of misery should still be taken seriously, because that's not a sane thing to be expecting from new players, which is why I heavily agree with your stance that the matchmaking would need drastic improvement on that. I just wish you would take a more empathetic stance on how people are affected by these kinds of things in your videos (Especially since you seem to take to high regard the trauma and loss of people you know that lost their lives to bullying), because there are many lines before a person ends their own life that are just as legitimately disheartening and mentally abusive. And they can be prevented or remedied, by people just having a little bit more empathy for their situation. A little understanding goes a long way, not everyone has a fortress in their mind, ready to take on and disregard any kind of mental stress. They rely on people they look up to for comfort. You are in a position like that Scott as a youtuber with a community, please consider that. Not all of them will have the heart to call you out on it. (I know I wouldn't be able to back then)
Again, I am not saying that this is the case for when a bully squad is misinterpreted. but thinking back to my early DBD days, there were definitely some bully squads sprinkled in between that seem definitively malicious to me even now. Messing with the killer is fine, but there are definitively a good amount of sadists among them that see an opportunity to go further than that if they notice the killer is newer or vulnerable, which is the same thing a bully looks for in their victims. Yes we should teach people to build up resistance to be able to shrug off those things, but the people who have the least of that should also be taken seriously when they voice their concerns. I am sure there are people overstating, or are simply entitled, but that should not be your default position and tone when addressing concerns that could be legitimate as well, in my opinion.
Thank you if you read this far, I just really needed to get that off my chest because it has always bothered me.
My definition of "Bully Squad" (which I don't even really use, I don't feel as though the term fits well at all) is players who have a very risky play style and make very high risk high reward plays (greeding pallets and windows, making risky high payoff reads and predictions, head on stuns, etc etc etc), and then try to bail themselves/each other out (blinding at pallets, taking lots of protection hits, bodyblocking, flashlight/pallet/locker saves, CJ Techs, Boil Over and/or sabos, etc.).
It can feel like you're "bullying" the killer because it's like dangling the carrot on the stick to the killer and then yanking it out of reach with their skill/risks paying off/outplays several times dispite the risk they put themselves in by not playing safely. I think it has less to do with if you end up winning or losing, and more to do with how well/poorly you played in comparison to the others. (Which is also part of why this is a problem effecting primarily lower skill players, as you said higher skill players don't care, and this is because they're good enough to grab the carrot before it can be yanked away, thus not ever feeling "bullied".)
Also "Bullying" is absolutely not the term I'd use, as you brought up. Though I don't agree that it's as simple as 'button and animation in video game are annoying me', I think it's a bit more emotionaly complicated than that. I think it's more like 'I'm simply being outplayed very hard, and it's frustrating to feel so bad.' Games were defined by someone as "The exuberant (thrilling/exciting) exploration of one's own abilities within the world", so it makes a lot of sense to me as to why being crushed in terms of skill in a video game can feel so frustrating.
Also about the matchmaking issue you brought up, I think this imbalance may be due to them not actually winning in the eyes of the game. If you demolish a killer but never do gens and end up all dying, that's a loss in the eyes of MMR (afaik at least), and so these insane players will continue to go against very bad players and drag them through the mud. Obviously the imbalanced matchmaking still exists as you described, but I think this is also a factor as to why so many more lower skill players get "bully squads" more often than higher skill players.
Them: Bully squads don’t exist.
Also them: Never plays killer.
I ran into a comp team the other day and I play blight. It was on auto haven and I’ve been playing him since he came out. Got like maybe 4 hooks. I didnt see it as bullying but rather an opportunity to play against people better than me. Getting teabagged at a pallet or flashlight saved on is just part of the game. Better matchmaking is part of it but also mentality of the player base being very entitled.
I would heavily disagree with the claim higher mmr leads to less bully squad encounters, we know for a fact that most people are around 1700 to 1800 when they start and max out at 1900 meaning most bully sqauds have only a slightly higher mmr than everyone else. If anything getting higher mmr and improving at tge game makes you encounter them more often because most good bully sqauds win like 80 percent of their matches so people who just start the game or are low mmr have an almost 0% chance running into one.
Also I don't have an issue with going up against good swfs the reason bully sqauds are soo annoying is because even if you do outplay them and win the game you don't get to enjoy it because you were so stressed out the entire time focusing on winning that when you finally do you just feel exhausted because they went out of their way to make what would normally be a hard match into a hard match with tabagging, flashlight clicking, exploit abuse like the double locker blind in the eiry of crows and dcs for hatch to prevent the 4k even when you outplay them and win. Also that stress is doubled if you face them while trying to chill out with a meme build, not using the absolute best/meta perks or you are playing anything below a b teir killer. With bully sqauds you either stress out and push through their bs to win only to feel exhausted at the end or you accept defeat and feel bad until your next match. Bully sqauds are to killers what bleeding and tunneling people out the game is to survivors, it's unfun and ruins the experience whether you win or not. Oh and I didn't even mention the fact that if you get a bad map or have really bad rng that hard and annoying game can become almost impossible to win even on a 4k hour nurse using good perks.
I have to agree with the whole "good people playing against average killers", I normally get big Stup- survivors while playing survivor myself, but seriously, they're on another level of stupidity, and the worst part is that i'm kinda good, average but at least i know what to do, where to go, how to waste time if imma die fast, but I keep getting real dumb survivors, I don't really care that much by know, it has been a year, but the real shit happened yesterday, i was on D.D. Saloon with a bunch of randoms versing a Pinhead, and that team, was AMAZING! like literally, we only got 3 hooks on endgame, and that because of trading (we were all solos so we weren't too coordinated), if I must recall a moment on that match was when Pinhead downed Zarina, he was taking her to the hook in front of my gen that was at 90%, i stood in front of the hook to take a hit, then when i left the area I saw the Ada and the Quentin going to that hook to bodyblock too, the man couldn't hook Zarina, and that wasn't it, I after finishing my gen went and took a hit for Quentin, then later on the match Zarina took a hit for me, we were playing like a comp team, none of us were downed until endgame, and guess what? we all 4 escaped, and the PH wasn't bad at all, it happened that we were better, as a team, not as individuals, and for the first time in months I thought "so that's what killers call a bully squad uh?" and the best part is that the killer was a TTV so I went to the stream and apologize for my behaviour, I didn't tbag but i pointed my finger at him after pallet stun him twice ;-; and he was good sports so, everything fine at the end, but i won't forget that match in a loooooooong time 😊😊
I agree with most of Scott’s points about a squad being better than you doesn’t make them a bully squad. Just because there was a skill gap in your match does not mean a given group of survivors was trying to ruin your day. However, I do believe bully squads exist, and what sets them apart from just skilled SWF’s is their intention and disrespect. As some other comments have mentioned, bully squads go in to a game with the intention to make the killer frustrated and get under their skin, clicking and t-bagging every chance they get. It’s just unsportsmanlike and really disrespectful to the killer who is, at the end of the day, a human being. These squads, who go into the game looking to anger the killer, are what I would classify as “bully squads”.
Scott, you really got this one wrong. A good squad becomes a bully squad not when they win, but when they teabag, click, and GG EZ in the chat after. There is a clear difference.
I 100% agree, when I first started playing DBD, I played this match with a bunch of people who I thought at the time were a "bully squad" because as a new killer, they kept getting saves, stunning me with pallets, etc. I made a whole vid about it and I called them toxic, it was kinda funny tbh. I look back at that vid and I say, "If only you knew, you just suck and were paired with people who are just messing around." I also had a skewed frame of view of what was and wasn't toxic because people told me, "If this happens, then they're toxic." rather than telling me the nuance and now I can make that distinction, but before I couldn't.
I will find it funny because the comments on the vid after over a year, A YEAR, of it being up there was like 1-3 people who took it upon themselves to be like, "No, you're actually the toxic one because..." and I thought that was funny because if they've seen any of my recent content, they would know I've grown and changed. I don't see the point of taking the vid down because I partially want my channel to show how much I've grown as a DBD player. I just found that whole thing so funny XD
A bully squad is when you meet a cohordinated group of survivor that uses bugs of the game to make you feel powerless for the sole porpouse of doing so.
They know they are using bugs, they do not care. They know they can play normal but they do not want.
Examples:
- When BO was buffed teams with BO, NM, SG, DH that sent you to police station or Eyrie and always went the the place where they knew there were no hooks in reach without falling;
- Teams with infinite torches and HO that send you to to the saloon because they know there are a lot of lockers where you cannot grab
- Teams they know the spots were it was impossible to pickup when there was that bug and kept going there to be downed and making for you impossible to pick.
If these aren't bully squads what are those? Good players that only want to have fun? Bully squads exist, 99% percent of the perceived one aren't, but they are not even so rare it is impossible to meet them, every experienced killers knows this issue.
Obv it is not really bullyism. Those are called bully-squad but noone think this have anything to do with real bullyism.
yeah i agree with pretty much all of this. i like to play survivor with friends and we're super casual, but sometimes we just go up against lesser skilled killers. and sometimes we get completely curbstomped. the matchmaking is just scuffed.
I had a bully squad just the other day that took me to the game to spam locker flashlight saves. Two of em p100. Two of em got slugged to death and the other two died as well. Thank bhvr for making darkness revealed. 🙏
when i play 'bully squads' even if they successfully 'bully', they usually end up being the most thrilling games that despite frustrating me, can be the most satisfying games to win.
There might not always be squads, but bully good players are everywhere, all the time.
Could you maybe make a guide on how to deal with the squads who's sole purpose is to annoy the killer?
Bring Franklin's Demise. These guys would rather die than giving up their insta-heals and ultra-rare addon flashlights. They'll literally turn on the spot and waste their dead hard, just to get their item back. Franklin's Demise is free hits galore against Item reliant 4-Man Squads.
@@StabYourBrain yes, I will bring franklins demise every game just in case they are a bully squad. Huge usable solution
I think a bully squad is a SWF that coordinates their efforts to prevent killers from getting hooks and/or to stun the killer. How well that squad does depends on how much they coordinate, how skilled they are, how skilled the killer is, and the randomness of the map. The best bully squads try to control as many variables as possible. They also know how to balance their “bullying” by coordinating effectively between gen rushing and preventing hooks. The bad ones are hilarious and it just makes for intensely silly match.
Idk, in latam there is a ton of people on discord that play like that
us people in latam love tilting our opponents
The biggest bully in this game isn't SWFs or sweaty killers. Its maps.
The only time I feel truly helpless is if I get a horrible map on a killer that can't deal with it, or alternate against a killer that has way too much power on it (Nurse on Midwich for example, or stealth killers on Lerys). That being said, survivor groups have a 80% higher chance to go to the map of their choice. I had no less than 5 survivor groups in a row send me to Eyrie of Crows, this after 2 sent me to RPD.
Personally I like to go against teams like that, the players can actually showcase their skills vs me and 100/100 times I will kill them like you said. One problem I see and consider it bullying is when the killer is obviously new/wayyy to inexperienced to go against 4 survivors who are good at fucking with the killer and another way smaller problem is for some reason the players who are trying to “bully” , if the killer outplays them by slugging them all or get everyone eventually they consider it a win because they fucked with the killer long enough or think they made the killer mad.
To me a "Bully Squad" is any group of survivors that go in to have fun at the expense of the killer. There are ways to make a game fun for both sides but most "Bully Squads" have three dedicated survivors who will do all in their power to annoy and anger the killer, making the match a miserable experience, while the fourth will just do gens as fast as they possibly can so they can still get escapes at the end.
Sure, often you can shut them down and still get 3-4 kills but that doesn't mean you had fun during the match.
I stand by the idea that survivors shouldn't ever feel like they are the power role in a game like this, if they do that's a design/balancing issue.
in regards to that tweet, is it fun for the killer to chase for 3 gens only to lose their only down to a flashlight save because you had to force them to an open dead zone to down them, and if you stop to look around for savers first they get up with wglf/unbreakable, then they spend the rest of the game stunned or blind while the last 2 gens get finished by a hyperfocus commodius built to last haver and the survivors get a free escape? And also can't injure multiple people either because boons/green medkits/ syringes/ basically having 4 health stages exists now...not fun for the killer at all.
Winning against a “bully squad” does not mean they werent a “bully squad”. If they are going out of their way to annoy the killer, they are still a “bully squad”. The one major example is head on. That perk literally only exists to annoy the killer. It has no actual use. Its not the only example but that perk immediately denotes a bully squad, or at least a person actively trying to ruin other people’s fun
I guess when the term started to be used, "bully squads" did exist. When survivors did hold a lot of control over how the match went they could actually go out of their way to mess with the killer and still get at least two to three man escapes. Back then I don't think it was quite a matchmaking issue because I remember going against survivors that I could chase and down quite easily, it just wasn't fun or effective to eat DS and BT after DS and BT. As of now I almost completely agree with you. With all the nerfs that those builds went through and me becoming a WAY better killer than I was, I just know how to deal with it and never had another problem. I guess the average player base just carried the term and kept using it even when it's meaning is not there anymore. Also, as a killer I think sometimes we just fall on that trap of getting frustrated of these survivors not being scared of you and when you can't even down them, you just go that "bully squad" excuse instead of calming the fuck down and realizing there are still 4 gens left to be made
The only point where I can disagree with you is that "It doesn't happen anymore". It certainly doesn't happen as much and I wouldn't call them "bully squads", but the matches we watch you and other streamers play really don't fit with the ones that we - the average playerbase - are playing.
I agree with Scott’s take completely, I’ve went up to 3 back to back bully squads all with different tactics but they all got destroyed the same way
As a Killer, if you really want to counter a "Bully Squad" (I just called them sweat squads because that's how they play) bring:
Agitation + Iron Grasp (for sabos or in case they try and body block you), Save the Best for Last (works good with carrying a survivor or catching up quicker in chase if you're an M1 killer), Lightborne (because nothing's funnier then them trying to blind you and nothing happens) and the last perk can be like Sloppy Butcher for longer heal times, Shattered Hope to get rid of their healing totems (because you know for fact they're bringing them) or Franklin's Demise if you want to just swat the items off of them.
Gen regression perks don't work as well because 90% of the time they're on comms and will be able to call out which gens to work on, what perks you're running, etc in order to counter it. This is just from my 3k hours of experience in the game. Sorry for the TL;DR.
I think the ultimate counter to bully squads is the AFK strategy. Theres nothing more likely to prevent a head on stun from happening or a flashlight from blinding you than just standing in the corner of the map. 😂
Sarcasm mostly, but legit sometimes if people are just trying to mess around all game, just like a farming game, I might just choose not to play if I want a more normal game. I want to play killer to chase people and hook people (not even camp and tunnel and all that) but if a team wants to deny fun from a killer then they should be happy being denied as well.
Facecamping with Bubba is also an option if you happen to be playing that killer.
Honestly I love playing against "bully squads". I love downing someone then running through all the possibilities of how I think they'll try to go for a save this time. The gamble of whether or not I'll get to the hook or they'll wiggle free after a couple of hits. Trying to guess where they'll try for the flashy save from. I just think its way more fun than "down one person, hook them, find another person, hook them, repeat and if you're not fast enough 5 gens pop".
The other week on Twitter I saw someone complaining about the same kinda thing and they said it was unfun and I tried telling them that I’d they’re good they’ll win against these squads and that it’s basically objectively fun since you’re constantly in chase the most fun part of the game and they didn’t like my answer
I think its more a person per person thing i know when i play wany type of head on build i am activly trying to make the other side have a bad time i woulf call that bullying but likewise that means theres alot of killer bullies too
I think the only time I get annoyed by these bully squads are when they send me to a map with a drop off point and do the annoying boilover/exponential stuff. Even now though, I've come to realize maybe I just need to take the game to a different side of the map where they can't do it.
I dont get the argument of "how are you getting bullied if you win?"
Like yea I guess I "won" but I still got head oned like 5 times and blinded at every pallet. Thats just annoying and takes the fun out of the match. Thats honestly enough to call it bullying. They're goin out of their way to antagonize the killer and piss them off. Winning isnt really the point. And even if they completelty fail at trolling, its still boring as hell because they're throwing so hard trying to farm epic funny moments rather than just playing the game normally.
Also good players do go against bully squads, but like you say, they know how to counter gimmicky trolly stuff. That doesnt change the intention of the team though, it just makes it ineffective.
As for the Cas/Comp thing, while I agree it isnt an end-all be-all fix to matchmaking, it does at least contextualize games in way that might reduce toxicity. Going in to causal mode with everyone silently agreeing that no one gives a shit I think would ease the hostility of the playerbase. Also Comp players also dont have to literally be tournament players they can just be super sweaty. And the sweaty players can get their own cue.
Also saying people only want the other side to not sweat while they still try to win is super presumtious. I dont want the enemy team to sweat so I can get away with gimmicky stuff without being completely countered
Those are just my takes tho good vid
i dont understand, what do you want then? survivors to not interact with you? you see 2 people the entire match and the split up and rush the gens immediately? how is that more fun
@@ScottJund playing the game normally is what I want them to do. I dont want to run the same loop with one survivor trying and failing to do a headon stun while another dude just flickers the flashlight. I'm barely even playing the game at that point. Its as boring as farming basically.
Like yea death squad teams playing super efficently is annoying but at least shit is happening and there is like a contest happening, even if its super hard. Survivors just running in circles trying for head ons and blinds is boring, just like leatherfaces sitting in basements is boring.
@@spooky8491 i mean i can agree if the bully team is so bad theyre essentially just killing themselves that would be boring too, yeah
Back when I played dbd, when I wanted to play casual, I played pig. People usually assume pigs that don't camp boxes are memers, and so a lot of shenanigans would occur pretty reliably.
"Bully squads" are silly imo, they'll get me mildly mad if they get a good sabo or flash save but its the pre dropping andy's and stealth players that get me mad. Searching the entire map for p3 Claudette's or playing kicking pallet simulator is the worst on maps like the game. I always appreciate players trying to loop, practicing something that i respect rather than holding w. I get where new killer are coming from as everyone at one point was in their shoes but they just need a reminder that this kind of thing becomes easier with time.
The whole point of DBD matches are to build up tension and for it to be released when you get chased unexpectedly.
When survivors become more aware that there are certain ways of short cutting to the whole suspens part of dbd.
It kind of makes the survivor gameplay loop pointless and everything to do with it. So then it creates these squads that their sole purpose is to annoy the killer and break the flow of the game,
and then falling back on super strong items and the fact that they're in coms.
I personally can enjoy a quirky squads sometimes but I wouldn't like for it to be incentivised.
If you look at gens on paper they might seem boring, but the whole point of gens as I previously stated are tension building machines. DBD used to be a lot more dark and have bad line of sights making gens feel suspensful, and the the killer pool used to be smaller meaning that stealth killer were probably more common to face. Ofcourse gens are boring but not knowing when the killer is coming makes them fun IMO.
But the vision of the game has been skewed by super experienced players that have the biggest ego thinking that they should get chases and only them and be put on a pedestal. In a team game where players become ego centric is very boring IMO.
I started having way more fun in DBD as killer when my motivation changed from trying to get the 4k to trying to have fun and enjoy chases with the survivors.
Dont lie to yourself
@@cyberk1ng_ Don't project your bad attitude onto me. :)
@@skilynnclari 🤓
you'd think that bhvr would of had the time by now to have matchmaking start to feel like its actually working at this point but it's still just a clusterfuck, I play duos with my friend on survivor pretty much daily and we usually win more than we lose in any given time we play, and we'll have games where i check the killers profile and they have like 40-80 hours in the game and just get destroyed, and games where i check the killers profile, and they have hundreds or thousands, same with teammates. i love checking hours before loading into a match to get an idea sometimes, but there's literally no correlation had a game recently where i checked one of our teammates hours and they had 1600, the killer got blown out, check killers hours after the match, and they had like 120. this game literally just needs a massive map balancing overhaul, matchmaking to sort of feel like it works, and a meta shake up maybe like 1-2 times a year, and most of the complaints in this game would be solved.
I am VERY happy when the Survivors start swarming me with Flashlights, because I know full well even if they are much better than me it will take them forever to get the Generators done, meaning, A LOT of free practice for me!
Always bring a spare Franklin's Demise or Lightborn wo mess with them instead x)