Regarding my scaling for Radahn: The only reason I don’t want to use Planetary and above scaling, is because he specifically doesn’t have any attacks that get to that level in his fights, and neither does Malenia (**who’s the main person of discussion here**), as her best possible attack only reached continental at best. Radahn still did the feat, it just isn’t applicable to his combat Edit: So I made a mistake. I discovered Nihilus11, who did the Malenia and Radahn calculations, also did one for Malenia’s thrust speed, which clocked in at just over 2000 mps, so there’s an extra speed feat for her, but Sekiro being a consistent lightning timer still edges that out :p
@Twin-Moon-Knight82Creation feat’s like creating pocket dimensions are always seen as kinda iffy and inconsistent when applied to a lot of characters that pull them off in fiction so most people don’t use those as actual feat’s, because of that most VS fight’s just use everything besides that. You’d also have to apply that logic to other series with similar feat’s like Jujitsu Kaisen’s Domain Expansion’s and Genshin Impact’s Adeptus Sub-Space Creation and Realms of Consciousness, for JJK that could get them from Island to Star Level and for Genshin it gets it to anywhere from Star to Solar System Level maybe even higher.
@Twin-Moon-Knight82 Because creation feat as a rule are usually thrown out in VS fights because they don’t apply to actual power during fights and are way too inconsistent with the people who make them in terms of their raw power. I haven’t taken a look at Elden Ring in a long time but from what I remember the first time was just an illusion to protect her mom nothing there was real, the second time was at the end of the game when she’s most likely using the Elden Ring to buff herself. Yeah that’s why people tend to laugh at JJK whenever they try to power scale because of creation feat’s. But what about Genshin? They literally do the exact same thing with Sub-Space Creation, in their pocket dimensions there’s a whole island, mountains in the distance, a day and night cycle with a sun and moon and stars in the night sky but do people actually use this in VS fight’s? No, nobody does.
That's stupid. Obviously not everything can get represented by the simplistic souls combat. You should be going mad just by looking at Midra, or not respawning if you get hit by Maliketh, but those type of things obviously don't happen. Like, how are you even supposed to represent in combat that Elden Beast can change the laws of reality? Same thing with Radahn and Malenia.
the hunter in bloodborne, who might be the first human to transcend humanity, is not only just some guy/gal, they're sickly as fuck at the start, too 😭
To be fair, if she's immortal, it would only kill her normally, like when Sekiro first drew it. You need to use it on someone in the proper murderous way to sever their immortality.
@@MadMax22 Then instant second phase death. I think that anti-air deathblow could work for more things than just waterfowl in the first phase (maybe not all the jump attacks, but at least the longer ones.).
@@overwatchtheater8165 yeah, but Sekiro just never has his posture break. I mean, sure, if I'm playing it might (a quickly recovered setback if you know what to do), but if we wanna go for what Sekiro can do you wanna put someone like Ongbal behind the wheel because he's reaching the limits of what the in game character can perform.
Man who actually thinks Malenia would be a challenge for Wolf like he’d make quick work of her. Just completely forget about her cause she is no where near as hard as Soldier of Godrick.
I think its kinda confirmed. Few years ago I saw video that showed early ver. of her dance, that should've been Tomoe attack. I dont remember the details sadly
I have a theory that Lady Tomoe is the Sculptor OR he was taught by Lady tomoe. A Theory where a person you thought was a Man is actually a woman. I came up with this before Elden Ring came out, AND in Elden Ring RADAGON ends up being QUEEN MARIKA. A dude ends up beings a woman. Ill only give you two pieces of evidence. On top of the Sculptors shrine is literally a TOMOE SYMBOL. And secondly The Sculptor levels up your Prothetic weapon. IN EVERY FRICKEN SOILS BORNE GAME. The person leveling up your stuff IS A WOMAN. Ill throw in one last piece of evidence. The sculptor has a technique called chasing slice. Where you throw a projectile and following up with a sword attack. ONLY PEOPLES HES TAUGHT WILL USE THIS TECHNIQUE. WEEEEEELL Genichiro, the guy taught by LADY TOMOE, when he shoots his bow will RUSH IN WITH HIS SWORD. Chasing Slice. Thats a sculptor technique. Hell one last piece of evidence. Iishin said Tomoes attacks were like dances. If you hold the Firecrackers or The Axe weapon. Sekiro will spin in a circle LIKE HE IS DANCING. ANY prosthetic moves givin to Sekiro were created by the Sculptor.
@@MadMax22 Sorry, but those are immensely weak theories. Firstly, Tomoe is a woman, so she isn't the Sculptor. Secondly, Tomoe is dead, as her grave is behind the Ashina Castle and Emma knew her. Thirdly, simply spinning a circle doesn't automatically make it a dance. The Okami warriors in the Fountainhead Palace float around in the air while they perform their dance-like moves. Fourth, that Genichiro who uses the Chasing Slice is fought either in an exaggerated memory, or within Sekiro's heart (as the japanese name says 'shinju Genichiro' which means 'Genichiro within the heart'). The Inner fights have the bosses have strength and know techniques they hoped to have. Fifth, Emma is in a way your Firekeeper/Doll of the game. And sixth, I looked and there is no symbol of Tomoe, as she doesn't have a crest of her own. I'd need some proof of this claim that there's a 'Tomoe symbol' somewhere in the Sculptor's shrine (whatever that means)
@@doc_vader2776 I mean yeah but I feel like you’re underplaying her, like Joel can’t beat Malenia just because he’s the main character of the last of us, so therefore this is a worthy discussion
@@damienmcneff7715 Yeah newtons is force. Newtons more specifically is in units of (kg*m)/s^2 while joules is in units of (kg*m^2)/s^2. So Energy is essentially force times distance.
@@kay_792 force and energy are two very different things. They can't always be interchanged. Ironic that you talk about school when you clearly never passed middle school science
6:07 almost like that was the whole reason ranni wanted him dead. Radahn held everything back, the stars, the moons, Ranni’s fate, everything was still in cycle (day night phases) but everything in the night sky ceased to move. You didn’t have to say “he was only holding back meteors” when in the very cutscene everything in the night sky started to move again. In the promised consort fight he is much faster than he ever did before but wasn’t as strong as he no longer had the strength of his great rune. With his weapon art literally stating “dash down at the speed of light”
There are two types of comments here: 1. The guys that actually played Sekiro and are not surprised at all 2. The Elden Ring Fanboys that are trying to cope
A lot of your arguments for why melania loses also work for why she loses to a naked guy with a pot on his head. Yes its possible for someone to avoid and counter all her attacks, but assuming sekiro will do that because he's a protagonist and she's a boss is unfair. Based on lore malenia could just as easily dodge all of his attacks. She doesn't in gameplay not because she can't dodge in the lore, but because if the boss could get half a second of I-frames whenever they wanted it wouldn't be fun.
@@damienmcneff7715Yes, but I don't think its fair to say that just because its possible for him to counter her attacks he will do it consistently enough to kill her. In the same way letmesoloher can dodge all her attacks but saying in lore that build would beat her is silly. edit: If you let him revive and get as many tries as he likes though then sure
Sekiro is the Og Malenia bro. If you look at everything Sekiro can do. Malenia just has his base moveset, Spiral Watercloud, and the ability to grab someone and stab them to basically one shot them. Sekiro can do all these things PLUS his prosthetic arms and tools. Plus malenia hasnt been shown to be able to master the SINGLE SWORD SWING like sekiro can. In Sekiro the PINNICAL OF TECHNIQUES are Single Sword swings like Dragon Flash, Waterfowl Dance type moves, and moves that launch the Shinobi in the air like Shadow Fall and Sakura Blossom. Malenia can fly but she also isnt necessarily bound to the earth like a samurai so she doesnt need to learn the Orangutans Jumping techniques. But shes never EVER showcased the ability to make a PERFECT CUT like Iishin. Sekiro can. So his sword skills are above Malenia. Plus with his prothetic tools he can Teleport (Mist Raven) Clobber you(Monkey Axe) Shield from your attacks(Hat Shield) Can Bazooka you(Flame Barrel) Can Imbue Flames onto his sword(Living Force) Can use the same technique to imbue flames on his sword to emporer his MORTAL DRAW (which is like using Destined DEATH. I REPEAT DESTINED DEATH) He can use his Whistle or Axe to take out her butterfly clones(because he can dispel apparitions) He can Sneak Attack her to kill her first health bar in one shot (when Sekiro Stabs an enemy and kills them in one shot its INSTANT DEATH because he usually stabs your NECK or your HEART. Only SPECIFIC characters like bosses uses their hands to throw off Sekiros Aim)
I always love these discussions because of the pixel to power/speed calculations, but its always funny how we use the power scalings in different universes to justify who would win. I really hope nobody takes the measurements seriously.
I assure you that the devs did not make these characters to be scaled like that. The best way to argue fights is to look at the two verses. The Elden Ring verse has way higher power levels in general. Look at the characters Sekiro fights and then look at the characters the tarnished fights. It's a completely different ballpark. The fact that Sekiro couldn't injure a random knight in armor but then defeating that dragon should tell you all you need about power scaling soulsborne...it just does not work. A random rune bear could give the guardian ape (a major boss) a run for its money. Look at the tools Sekiro has (sword, prosthetics, consumables) and then look at the tools the tarnished has (100+ weapons, 100+ incantations and sorceries, 100+ armor, talismans, consumables, physick flask). There are many ways to argue but the point is Malenia and the Elden Ring verse in general scales way above the Sekiro verse.
@@seiftrabelsi5454 Well you can argue the same for the Outer God of Rot, but the Blind Swordsman still managed to beat it, and it’s on a higher level than even Malenia
@@damienmcneff7715 I feel like sealing it away underground (a seal that is currently breakin as the rot causes the lake above to sink) is different from beating an outer god in a fight.
@@damienmcneff7715 We have no idea how that occurred. It may not even have been a conventional fight (unless I'm not aware of something), seeing as the Outer God of Rot doesn't necessarily have a physical avatar aside from the Scarlet Rot itself, which the item descriptions basically lay out for us - the god is the rot itself. The only thing that makes it ambiguous are the words "blade in hand," but that's far from confirmation there was a typical fight involved. _"A great lake of standing water downstream of the Ainsel River. It is said that the divine essence of an outer god is sealed away in this land."_ - Map (Lake of Rot) _"The dancer in blue represents a fairy, who in legend bestowed a flowing sword upon a blind swordsman. Blade in hand, the swordsman sealed away an ancient god - a god that was Rot itself."_ - Blue Dancer Charm You also can't equate Sekiro to the Blind Swordsman since we have no information on the latter. Presuming Sekiro can replicate his feat is baseless.
Take away from the video: Literally nothing can accurately measure up to the power of any Fromsoft game because I could just be some shitter with a giant finger as a weapon, and somehow dodge lightning, lasers, and survive super-mega-ultra scarlet cancer that, while literally killing Demi-gods amongst men, can be mended with a lighter or some moss. (Not to mention the Tarnished can casually shrug off the purest essence of death being wielded as a sword by a furry)
Why on earth would the devine dragons blade be made of iron? I know this sounds unrelated but you shouldn’t even compare sekiro parrying it when we can absolutely not know what that shit is made of.
@@mushroomy9899 I actually explained why in the original Reddit post that was showcased with the images. The reason why is because the real-life seven branch sword is made of Iron, and because the blade makes a noticeable metal clank sound when deflected, and deflects in Sekiro have specific sounds for the material they’re deflecting, be it wood, metal or human limbs, and the Dragon’s sword makes the sound for metal To change the material it’s made of, you just have to divide the mass by the density of iron and then just multiply by the material you want to use instead. I picked iron because it seemed like the safest best for the pre-mentioned reasons
@@damienmcneff7715 yeah, that’s fair, i’m just saying like, it’s a gigantic blue sword which is wielded by an immortal dragon, making guesses about what it’s made of just seems like a bad idea. Like, due to its sheer scale, it can tip the fight in sekiro’s favor SO much. Not to say he wouldn’t win, he probably would, but that gives a huge advantage when it’s pretty much impossible to know for sure what the blade is made of.
@@damienmcneff7715 yeah I'm not against your argument or calculations, I'm just being pedantic. It really doesn't matter, but I just wanted to point out a possibility that doesn't really change much. All because of the sword's texture and color.
Why are we using game mechanics and game calcs to scale?… What is canon for Elden Ring is not the gameplay, but the actual lore, unlike Sekiro who mostly base it’s gameplay on the story In the fight between Radhan and Malenia, both of them were surely nerfed, and not at their full strength, but it is stated that Malenia took the advantage when she released the Scarlet Rot. Radhan would scale above the Astels, who can create Nebulas of stars, shoot lasers, and create portals from which are transported meteorites which were traveling at an high speed into space. The stars argument is also pretty weak. Sure, in Elden Ring we can see how the term star is used for all kind of celestial bodies, it it’s because they have a medieval understanding of thing, and take every kind of light emitting celestial body as star, meaning comets, meteorites, Astel Entities and yes, Stars too. For speed you can put the Sekiro verse at lighting, pretty consistent. For Malenia tho she can dodge lightnings in gameplay, but if we go by lore she should scale to the Tarnished, someone who can dodge lasers, move beyond time (that would put him at immeasurable, but let’s not use it) and yeah, lighting too. If we take in Sekiro gameplay abilities/skills, once again, it would not make sense, since one verse story is also based on the gameplay, while the other only on the lore We do not see Radhan using planet busting attack, simply because of gameplay. We know that he can stop Astels, and he would also scale to Ranni/Rennala, which created a universe in its second phase (not an illusion as many think) The only argum I can see for Sekiro winning would be his immortality, but he need to keep most of his body to regenerate, he cannot regenerate severed limbs. The scarlet Rot could also remain on Sekiro body, just like the Dragon Rot that remain when you die. It’s different in Elden Ring because your body reform after becoming dust Overall I see Malenia taking every kind of physical stats, beside possibly skill and battle IQ, along with weapon arsenal
The poise and deflection argument is also non sensical. You can use deflection now in Elden Ring, but it doesn’t lower poise in Elden Ring, because again, different kind of game Mechanics, and even if deflected Malenia still does heal for hit? Malenia Rot is stopped by water, I mean sure, but not completely countered? Also, the manga is not canon. The comics and Mangas are created by outside groups (the Dark Souls and Bloodborn comics, along with Sekiro Manga, and Elden Ring manga and Web comic). They are not canon, we can literally see a lot of contradiction and differences in the stories between game and manga/comic.
@@riccard1n0 I’m using both lore and gameplay to scale. If Radahn nerfed himself to face Malenia he certainly didn’t when fighting us as Promised Consort, and what he displays there still tracks with my argument. If he was holding back then, that’s just stupid. Radahn cannot weaponize stars, where Astels can because they can create portals. Radahn never displays he can pull a star down or anything close to that. Likely because he can’t do that with stars, only halt them. (Stars seem to have predetermined paths in Elden Ring anyways, and Astels can make portals to manipulate them (but are stars themselves)) I’ve already addressed every other point in the video, but for Malenia we can see her top speed with Waterfowl Dance, which only makes shockwaves She can most likely kill Sekiro in one or two hits, but she has to actually land those hits
@@riccard1n0 I addressed the deflection in Elden Ring, if anything it’s an inferior version of Sekiro’s because it requires stamina, and even enemies in the DLC can deflect you I addressed this in the video with the blind swordsman The Sekiro manga IS canon and is a prequel to the game. No contradictions exist in it either.
@@damienmcneff7715 so for base Radhan, honesty he is not as strong as Promised consort, since that version is powered both by Miquella, and Mogh body. I do not think Malenia scale to the Promised Consort at all. Even then, again, Radhan do not weaponize stars, okay, but his gravitational magic is strong enough to influence countless celestial bodies, and Malenia survived attacks from said Gravitational magic/energy output. We don’t need to see Radhan attacking by using stars to scale to said lvl, the simple fact that his magic is strong enough to influence them scale his magic energy input to said lvl. Even then, Radhan scale above Astels who can shot Meteorites , and create Nebulas, which are shown and stated as nebulas of stars. By this fact, Malenia durability would scale much higher than anything Sekiro has, since she resisted said gravitational influence For speed again, Malenia does not stop at lighting, like at all. Tarnished scale to the Miranda Flower and Stone Worms, that shoot lasers, much, much faster than a lighting.
@@damienmcneff7715 again, they are based on differents kind of gameplay, of course they are different game mechanics and logic, reason why we cannot and should not equalize them in any way. Also can you tell me where is it stated that Sekiro manga is canon? Cause no outside work was ever shown or stated as such in any Soulsborn game
@@damienmcneff7715 malenia in phase 1 may not be too strong, and i dont know how she scales to the tarnished which is ridiculesly powerfull, but in phase 2 malenia trancends to becoming the godess of rot. So she is baisickly an outer God. Idk if that makes her relative to the greater will tho.
So i don't have a stake either way in this argument but i will say pitting any protagonist character against any boss is going to be an un fair match up since you can't make a boss in a game actually unbeatable (players would rightful call foul) so the boss has a skill sealing built in that the protagonist does not. In any gameplay matchup the protagonist is going to win because they are designed to win where as bosses are inherently designed to be beaten.
I disagree. Gameplay ≠ lore, this video does not even go into actual feats done by Malenia and merely goes with gameplay more than lore which is just...ignorant. Look, I love Sekiro and I do want him to win but this is just not it. I get it that it's hard to scale SoulsBorne games but that is precisely why you should've considered every possibility as well as interpretation. So yes, I still think Malenia would've won regardless of how you scale Wolf. Edit: People still don't understand why lore does not translate well to gameplay. It's GAMEPLAY, limitations are set for gameplay, spec or budget purposes. It can go either of these three ways but all of them are still a viable enougj reason. If we do get a lore-accurate Malenia fight, the Tarnished won't even be able to lay a hit on her much less defeat her unless the Tarnished is also lore-accurate which is how they portrayed in the gameplay but REALLY toned it down for the sake of any three reasons I stated above. It's a simple concept, if we do get nuclear explosions in the game here and there, not would it only destroy the SoulsBorne gameplay we know and love, it would also cost a lot of money as well as requiring a very high spec rig. Which is why when scaling comes to the play, people rely more on the lore than gameplay. Hell, I can give you guys one example from Sekiro. The Divine Dragon was said to be able to destroy a town with one swing of its blade but in gameplay, the sword swing projectile isn't even big enough to cover a whole house. You know why? IT'S GAMEPLAY. THINGS NEEDED TO BE TONED DOWN TO SUIT THE DEVS' VISION OF THE GAMEPLAY. It's that simple. The reason why I think Malenia would win against Sekiro pretty easily is because she simply scales above him in many categories. Sure, you can argue that he could use Raven Feathers to escape but the problem lies to how he would react to an attack faster than he can anticipate or act upon. Not forget to mention, the power behind her blade that could went against Radhan who held off CONSTELLATIONS OF STARS. So how would it be like fighting against her in a Sekiro gameplay perspective? Sekiro could deflect blows sure, but the moment a powerful strike comes, what did it show? A red kanji which indicates unblockable strikes. If Sekiro did went up against Malenia, all of her attacks might as well be all red kanji strikes. It's just that damn powerful. And the argument regarding Mortal Blade baffles me. It doesn't one-shot, it specifically used to sever immortality which is why every immortal opponent you came across, the finishing blow usually uses the Mortal Blade to, well, SEVER IMMORTALITY. It is to stop them from ressurecting. It can be used as a weapon, yes but it doesn't one-shot immortals. Besides, the Mortal Blade pales in comparison to the effects of Death Rune/Destined Death. Mortal Blade is used to sever immortality, Destined Death is used to kill immortal gods permanently. It's literally a concept being wielded by the Tarnished to kill gods whose layers of immortality transcends above the mortal ones merely because it isn't immortality severance, it is applying death to anything undying or absent of death itself. And the use of it is even more efficient too, have it in your vessel and all of your weapons and magic automatically becomes god-killers meanwhile the Mortal Blade is one specific weapon only. The skills too are in Malenia's favor. Just because Isshin was said to be the best swordsman as he is called the Sword Saint doesn't mean anything in a world like Elden Ring. Malenia was not just known to the strongest swordsman in Elden Ring she is also known to be unbeatable like Radhan. Think for a second, she is a swordsman known to be unbeatable...IN A WORLD WHERE MAGIC NUCLEAR, UNDYING GODS, WORLD DISTORTION POWERS AND CONCEPTS BEING WIELDED AS A WEAPON EXISTS. That's way more impressive than being the best swordsman in a more grounded world like Sekiro. While supernatural exists and some abnormality, it sure as hell ain't the same as the dark fantasy world of Elden Ring. Yet here is Malenia, in such world, becoming a mere swordsman but was known to be unbeatable. Who do you think has a higher skill level? Yeah, my money goes to Malenia. While gameplay does tell something, it tends to downplay some things to fit the gameplay style. Some can be taken into consideration but the viability of it can be argued otherwise. Besides that, when scaling SoulsBorne, scale wisely. Otherwise, you're just being ignorant.
I love it when people say Gameplay ≠ Lore and then say "BeCUaSe sEkIro cOuLdNt CuT aRmOreD WaRrIor hE cAnt dEaL dAmAGe to ArMorED EneMIeS" bs. You telling me he couldnt kill the armored warrior with Mortal Draw OR EVEN DRAGON FLASH? The most powerful single strike Iishin was able to create? Lets not pretend the Devs just wanted to make an interesting fight because within history Swords cant cut through armor and thats the biggest piece of debate between Knights vs Samurai's. (Knight swords couldnt cut through armor OR Chain Mail either btw)
@@MadMax22 I never said that. Pray tell, *when* did I say that? I never did. In fact, I disagree that the whole full armored dude cannot be pierced through with Sabimaru. I think that's just a gameplay thing rather than an in lore feat
@@MadMax22 do note that through glitches, some people have managed to obtain the mortal blade before fighting the armoured warrior and thus have fought him with mortal draw. Mortal draw indeed does health damage through his armor.
@@denji3397it’s shitty because you didn’t get your way? It’s high quality and you are ignoring that cause you didn’t get the desired result or answer you yearned for
This entire argument is predicated on Radahn not being as strong as he is in the lore. Radahn was able to passively cease the movement of almost all celestial bodies in the knight sky. The naked human eye is capable of seeing less than 1% of the celestial bodies in our universe. Assuming we are able to see at most 0.1% of celestial bodies with the naked eye, and assuming that’s all Radahn stopped, not accounting for the momentum of said celestial bodies, he would need to exert 1.5e+50 Kg in force. That’s 49 zeros at a minimum, which he does PASSIVELY. To say that level of strength has no combat application because we didn’t see Radahn use it like that is laughable. Melania fought Radahn to a stand still, and while she had to resort to the help of an outer God to do it, she still did it. This means that in her Goddess of Rot form she, arguably, is capable of bringing down creatures much stronger than anything Wolf has faced. Take the giant skulls found in Caelid as an example. She also has similar speed to him, and has 100’s, possibly 1000’s, of years of battle experience more than Wolf does. She wins this fight, no contest.
@@thatguy9579 if Radahn has that strength for every one of his attacks, he doesn’t display it. Neither does Malenia. We even see in the trailer the force of their attacks during their clash. If Radahn always attacks with that amount of strength there should be no planet left. Alright, let’s say Malenia is impossibly stronger. In Elden Ring some nobody regular human 1v1’d that same Outer God she invokes for strength, with counters and a combat style similar to Wolf and won despite the obvious power gap
@@damienmcneff7715 Two reasons: 1. obviously they can’t do that for gameplay purposes. Just like they don’t have most of the enemies and bosses in Sekiro one-shot Wolf (when you’re properly ‘leveled’ for the different areas in the game at least). 2. You’d have to be an idiot to destroy the literal planet that you are standing on. As for the blind swordsman, Melania learned how to fight from him. He was her teacher. So if she sees a fighting style similar to that of her teacher’s, and thus her own, she would most likely know how to counter it. After all, she was depicted as a tactical genius in the lore. The point is, if you want to properly scale two characters against one another in an all out brawl, you have to use the lore combined with gameplay to scale them. Otherwise you’re only using half the characters and their feats. You wouldn’t pit the Capcom version of Dr. Doom in Marvel vs. Capcom 2 against Cyborg from Injustice without giving them their respective comic book related feats and weaknesses.
Celestial bodies in the Elden Ring universe clearly don't work the same way they do in real life. One of them falls to the Lands Between following Radahn's death and the impact site is maybe the size of a castle at most. That said, yeah gameplay isn't an indicator of lore-accurate strength
@@thatguy9579 But gravity powers are always catastrophic in general, and Radahn didn't show his gravity powers against Malenia, so the extensive power of gravity that Radahn showed by holding still the celestial bodies wouldn't be taken into account while we are scaling Malenia, it's a power unique to Radahn and only him, and he never displayed it offensively, so it really doesn't mean anything when we are discussing Malenia. Another point that holds this is that Radahn was off-screened and didn't use his gravity powers offensively in the Malenia's cinematic.
@@thatguy9579 Another aspect to be taken into account is durability, due to your point you are assuming Malenia attack potency is (±) = Radahn's because she was able to trade blows with him, on which you are ignoring many aspects, did he use all that force during the fight? Could he possibly endure his own power? Both of those are answered with no. As the own gameplay mechanics displayed, the magic powers that Radahn possesses doesn't correlate with his physical prowess, it's his knowledge, affinity and mastery towards that magic that allows him to do such. Knowing that, Sekiro wins against Malenia and pretty much any physical fighter in Elden Ring for many reasons.
I never understood this mindset she literally would destroy Sekiro. She’s older, more powerful, has more battle experience, physical stronger and faster. This video mostly relies on gameplay which isn’t a good barometer for character combat skills because it needs to make sense in the context that the has to ACTUALLY bet her. It’s relies on her acting as a game ai and not a real person that’s a skill general of one of the most successful armies in the Lands Between. Even if he’s immortal, what’s stopping her from just cutting off his arms and legs once she realizes he can’t die? This logic of Sekiro winning only works if you think Malenia is incredibly stupid. Sekiro or any character from Sekiro will NEVER win against her first phase nor will they ever even see her 2nd. I’ve seen this debate too many times but Elden Rings world is too powerful for Sekiro’s Verse. This isn’t trying to find out who will win, it’s trying to find a way to see how you can make your favorite character win at all costs. It’s Agenda Piece logic ie no logic at all. Look Sekiro losing doesn’t make him less of a character or a game because he can’t bet everything. Guts is not winning against Goku, that doesn’t mean he’s somehow a bad character. He’s absolutely a better written character than Goku but Goku will win ALL the time. This is playground child logic and using Gameplay that’s designed for people is just not substantial enough as well as ignoring all the things Malenia can do.
@@simonealcazar816 what’s stopping her from cutting off his limbs: the fact he’ll deflect her? Even the trailer cinematic shows her and Radahn fighting as they would in game. I went through every one of her attacks and Wolf has a counter to them all, and even in the lore someone weaker than an outer god was able to beat it just by having counters to it
@@damienmcneff7715 Brother this fight won’t be like the game. This will be a REAL FIGHT. There will be feinting, parry (which Malenia can ALSO do), dodging, sneak attacks, breaking characters guards, sweep attacks, mind games etc. You are looking at this in most one dimensional way possible. Malenia is a seasoned multi war campaign general, fighting extremely powerful enemies. She will be constantly changing her tactics (same as Sekiro of course). She hits harder, is faster and is by far more battle experience than Sekiro. While Sekiro was a bady in his poop stain rags, she was killing her first knight. Even trying to say, “He bet Isshin.” She’s older than him as well! It’s a meaningless comparison. It’s literally the Hydrogen bomb vs Cuffing Bady meme. Malenia is not just gonna start swinging mindlessly and go “Oh no he can parry me, that it I guess.” No. She’s easily overwhelmed with sheer strength and speed. And once Sekiro revives, it won’t be long before she just decides to cut his limbs and keep him alive or simply knock him out. You’re right this isn’t even close…for Sekiro. I loathe this conversation because Elden Ring is the highest scaling verse in the Fromsoft souls catalogue. DeS, DaS, and BB, it doesn’t matter. Most of the characters in those games outside strong enemies will barely get past Morgott. Heck they wouldn’t get past not crazy Rennala. It’s boring. Every time this is brought up people have to constantly ignore that blatant power difference so their favorite boss can win.
@@damienmcneff7715 Oh my god…You viewing this in a vacuum. As if Malenia will never change up anything, and act like an AI robot. Sekiro is not going to have access to all of his tools, he’s not gonna hammer space all the equipment in the world to use. Once again you’re using video game logic to REAL FIGHT. He not gonna pause the world so he switch to all the tools to directly counter her, it doesn’t matter if he has fire tools, he’s not even getting past normal Malenia. He not going to stand there while Malenia flails at him until she posture breaks and he takes all of her life points. It’s a REAL FIGHT! Which you are failing to grasp. You know the idea that when people ask, “why do dragons not just stay in the air and just keep blowing fire until their enemies die?” You know what to that answer to that is? “It wouldn’t be fun to play against.” Everything in these games are in service for people to, yes to struggle, but ultimately WIN. Malenia has a few set of moves because if she actually fought as a real person with the combat skills of possibly 100s of year old war general. NO PLAYER WILL WIN. Once again, using game logic as if the fight will go the same way as the game is a fool’s errand. “He can parry her.” That’s if he’s even fast enough, and even if he is she’ll just start feigning her attacks, sweep attack him, constantly mixing up her attacks. She’s a fencer, you see her wielding a rapier in the Prosthetics Heirloom, the katana isn’t even the only weapon she can use. She can dodge fire balls, lasers, arrows. What the hell is a flame spear and a cheap flamethrower is going to do against her. You think she’s just gonna walk into it? Especially how evasive she is? She always backs up in the fight. What stopping her him breaking his wooden arm in thousands pieces? Nothing. Nothing is stopping her. ONCE AGAIN, the even before goddess of rot or ignoring that Sekiro’s tools are not infinite even in game. Nothing is stopping Goddess Rot Malenia from just SPAMMING clones at him until he’s completely overwhelmed and no, it will be the same pattern as the game because this will be a fight against REAL PEOPLE not an video game AI. What’s going to happen, is the fight is gonna barely last 4 minutes at best before she cuts him down, tosses his sword away, removes his ability to walk or just knock him out. Have one of her guards to toss him into the rot pools or something and go to sleep waiting for Miquella. This will be an average Tuesday for Malenia. Oh and one last thing, “A guy in a naked with a stick can beat her.” My guy….of course…she’s a video game character. Even if we ignore the flawed logic, all those no hitter? Those really skilled players? EVERYONE died to her literally HUNDREDS of times to eventually bet her. It’s takes hours to fully learn her kit. Gameplay immortality is the only reason you win against most bosses in the game. Malenia if was a REAL PERSON, will never allow you to get past your 3rd attempt. Because the moment she realizes outright killing you is not an option, she’s just incapacitating you. No revives. No restarting. That’s it.
8:25 I really hate the argument in Versus Most specifically (death battle) that “if a character dodges a lightning attack they are automatically faster than the speed of light” Sometimes it makes sense for certain characters but most of the times it doesn’t make any sense because its such a power boost. For example in Elden ring when u fight malenia u don’t see her moving at the speed of light and even in lore in the cinematic malenia wasn’t charging at radahn in a blink of an eye.
I see all the comments flaming him, but take this into consideration. In a From Soft game, it's always normal folks with different skills being able to slay these creatures and legends. The world, the lore, and the gameplay are all designed to be at a similar level to grant enormous scale to the impossible threats you're expected to face. Wolf can bully any From Soft protag, who can bully any one of these gods. So how is it so incomprehensible that someone noticably stronger and leagues faster than those normal folks that have, AT MOST, Demon Slayer levels of scaling in gameplay; would be able to beat these same creatures? The one thing I will give y'all is that Wolf is so strong, there is not much room for speculation in Sekiro boss powers and limits, since Wolf is actually strong enough to face all of them and *_win_* while remaining at least 90% lore accurate. The speculation of power in Elden Ring is absolutely insane. But again, keep this in mind. Everything they can do in lore can be comprehensibly seen in gameplay to a degree.
That's not even half true. Wolf is the WEAKEST Fromsoft protag lore wise besides maybe the Demon Souls Protag. Dark Souls 1-3 have characters that scale to the first flame and the Chosen Undead, who can take on a force that can control time and space. Elden Rings protag can fight Radahn at full power following the DLC, which at his peak he had enough power to hold back all of the stars in their verse. Bloodbornes is based on interpretation. Cause if you believe any of the old ones scale to Cthulu's actual mythos, then they far surpass anything the other games have lore wise and feat wise.
@@shirothr5384 the protags in dark souls don't scale to the first flame, Gwyn is practically hollow when we see him and can literally be parried when almost all bosses before him couldn't be. Almost everything in the Souls series is dying or weakened when the protagonist practically mercy kills them, including all those forces that can 'control time and space' in bloodborne all old ones that are killed were done so with mundane tools. One got fished up and then flogged to death or whatever, and the other three were butchered by the Good Hunter using guns and blades. IIRC, you can literally gun parry the Moon Presence, but regardless they definitely don't scale to Lovecraft's Gods Wolf is also the only one of the protags whose immortality is confirmed to be canon to the story I believe.
Short answer: Sekiro characters in general are mostly just very powerful and skilled warriors with mostly low level supernatural abilities in lore. Elden Ring characters lore wise are freaking insane compared to anything in Sekiro. You claim Radahn's meteor shower stopping feat doesn't mean anything in an actual battle but then again we could claim the same about Sekiro. He can deflect the divine dragon's slashes in that specific realm but he is obviously not that strong when he fights mobs in the mortal realm otherwise he could blow away anyone with a single attack. We know that somebody like Godfrey could defeat 20m tall fire giants with nothing but sheer strength and his son, Godwyn defeated Fortissax and it was probably them together that killed the colossal Gransax. Okina in Elden Ring is closer to an average Sekiro level character IMO. He became a very powerful swordsman and challenged Mohg but according to descriptions it wasn't a close battle. He managed to cut Mohg once then he was like: Okay you're not bad but kinda crazy so how about I offer you to live your life as demon with infinite thirst for blood, basically a Shura. Then he meets our character in the end game as he is treated as a basic invader not some legendary foe.
@@valentinvas6454 I literally went over that. Sekiro consistently can deflect stupid stuff. In the mortal realm he can deflect the explosion of a demon who’s powered by the concept of hatred in all of Japan. In Elden Ring, he’d be comparable to the Blind Swordsman if he was weilding Destined Death with bloodhound step
The issue with your arguments is that they rely completely on gameplay, which then can be used to ruin your arguments. If malenia wants, she can bloom immediately and nuke the haligtree in scarlet rot. Sekiro would either be rotted immediately, which is a loss, or he uses one of his tools to stop it. Except, those tools use spirit emblems lol, he can't do that infinitely. Do you see why gameplay can't be used for discussions like this? Sekiro can deflect shit so you have a way to avoid it. (Scaling sekiro to light speed is complete bullshit btw, the attack doesnt move at light speed so its not light speed lmao). Malenia's bloom doesn't cover the entire haligtree just so you can avoid it. If you're going to base on argument on gameplay, the main character will 10000% of the time beat out anyone who isn't the main character, simply because they can avoid damage, and the boss cannot lol. Gameplay is not convincing evidence. The issue with this match-up entirely and why I hate it, is that sekiro has no lore feats, and crazy gameplay feats, while malenia has insane lore feats, and mid af gameplay feats. So it just comes down to what you think matters more. I tend to think gameplay is always exaggerated for the player, so it's not fair to judge using it, unless your comparing two main characters.
@damienmcneff7715 we have an entire region of the game showing what her bloom does. The cutscene isn't necessary. And please tell me where you used the fact that malenia very well could be near light speed if you want to get technical, as radahn very possibly was light speed. We can't know for sure because power scaling fromsoft characters is stupid because they're so vague and up to interpretation by design. Stop trying to scale a character with only gameplay to back him up, vs. a character with only really lore that's up to interpretation to back her up. It's dumb.
My biggest problem with the whole “radahn didnt use the stars during the fight ergo hes not that level” is that it ignore that he still cares about the world. When you fight him he protects his horse and even shoves it into the sand to prevent it from being hurt by his phase change slam from space. So him not using his gravity magic to drops stars on you is likely because he doesnt want to destroy the lands between with that level of power. Also it is kinda a feat towards him that he can literally hold back the stars and everything else in the sky and while doing that still hard stalemate malenia
@@MangoMan139 But then you have the Consort fight where he should still be able to do that but needs Miquella’s aid to use a meteor attack that’s stronger than Starscourge’s
As a physicist i must say that hearing 66,000,000 mega joules just makes me giggle as only 4 million MJ is the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. whatever impact and shockwave absorbed by wolf is more than 10x the impact of that nuke (assumed linear it is not linear fyi). And will poison him from the ionising radiation emissions due to level of energy those that collision will have (~15% of the total energy if it were to act like a nuke). Ik that game logic can be scuffed bc he’s immortal and all that but immortality without regeneration would mean his turbo cancer from one attack would kill himself and whatever opponent was hit so long as they don’t have what id call toon-level regeneration
@@ilolami5399 don’t worry. We just give people dragon super cancer to fix that regular super cancer Also this is hilarious (I really don’t understand how they got that number anyways XD my math was barely a fraction of their result)
wait? why is it a bad thing that the tarnished beats her? the tarnished is really strong when you deep dive into the lore. edit: 10:20 i got my answer edit: regarding sekiro beating a god, i did not know that. ive seen only 1 sekiro playthrough years ago
funny thing i found using the umbrella prosthetic damien is YOU CAN PARRY GRABS WITH IT INCLUDING THE SWORD LOL there are particular perilous attacks you cannot parry with your sword though it depends on your knowledge which and which not to deflect when faced with perilous attacks so basically sekiro is ALSO immune to grab attacks like genichiros fist slam in the gut sekiro literally cannot be outcountered
@@juniedomanillo9390 oh yeah. I forgot to mention that grab does nothing XD Umbrella is just the most busted prosthetic Literally nothing in her kit is a threat to him
I still believe the mortal blade wouldn't work on Malenia's immortality. The reason for this, is that the whole thing with the blades (And wolf's journey) entirely revolves around the divine dragon, as does all immortality you see throughout the game. Like it's a specialty tool designed to end immortality that stems from the divine dragon, and extract its tears for immortal severance. It's literally called the "Gracious Gift of Tears" Also unrelated but Wolf didn't learn all those moves in one night. He just remembered them, essentially his old muscle memory kicking in after the 3 years in jail.
I feel like this is severe low-balling for Malenia all things considered. Why is Malenia capped at the megajoules range when she should scale above *at least* monsters like the Fallingstar Beast who’d tank the impact of landing in the Lands Between. Hell you bring up a few VSBW calcs and the Fallingstar Beasts alone are calc’ed up to the Divine Dragon’s level over there.
@@ArsayumTheThird Her Aeonia could likely get way above that if you chose the interpretation that it destroyed the Sellia area, but as I said in the video, it’s more likely that other than the epicenter the spread of the rot was gradual Malenia’s basic slashes are in the Megajoules range. Every one of her individual slashes has that amount of force, which is the equivalent of a tank blast
@@damienmcneff7715 @damienmcneff7715 (Re-send since it seems YT took the original reply down for my linking to a calc, apologies if you can see the original and this looks like a dupe reply) I don't think you seemed to catch my point? If the Fallingstar Beast's landing onto the Lands Between has been calc'ed equal to or higher (depending on how you do it) than the Divine Dragon's sword swing in energy, wouldn't Malenia vastly upscale since it's a mid-level boss for anyone in the early-mid game, far below the early-endgame boss Malenia is. They're juveniles of actual Remenbrance bosses like Astel, who also have a massive feat of sinking the Eternal Cities deep underground, and both variants are encountered before entering the Haligtree. Plus there are calcs of even the Stone Golem hitting the gigajoules worth of energy, who even early game Tarnished scale far above. Apologies for having to separate the link like this, but TH-cam no likey apparently: htt ps://the-lounges-battles.fandom. com/wiki/User_blog:DcDoesPhysics/Golem_Archer_Massive_Arrow
@ Upscaling to the crater they make upon impact? Why would she? She never makes a crater such as that or does an attack that has the force of a meteor. (Unless you wanna argue her nuke) I don’t see a problem with the golems hitting harder than Malenia, but this math has an error too. They used a cylinder for the end of the arrow’s volume and weight, which already makes it incorrect, but the calc reaches 22 gigajoules, which I don’t see a problem with. You can argue Malenia’s nuke can reach this level but there’s no reason her basic slashes or waterfowl should. Regardless, Divine Dragon still outputs more force. Malenia likely doesn’t one shot these guys after all anyways
@ It’s a durability feat for the Fallingstar Beasts. They tank crash landing onto the planet, Tarnished have no issues kicking their butt, ergo Malenia upscales. Even if you went the gameplay route of it taking dozens to hundreds of hits to put down, that’s still waaay above the Megajoule scaling she was given. Not to mention the whole point is that they’re *uninjured* by such impacts yet Tarnished have no issue harming them. There is a pretty big issue in Golems somehow being stronger than Malenia: She hits harder than the golems. Like literally. Or heck she’d upscale the likes of Godrick who can (or his minions at least) kill the far larger and stronger dragons for grafting. Why wouldn’t her basic attacks scale? It’s not like she’s treated as hundreds to thousands of times weaker than such creatures are durable. Even in-game logic would have most Tarnished taking out Fallingstar Beasts in a few dozen hits. But again they are the premise is they are *unharmed* by meteor impacting into the ground yet the Tarnished harms them. There’s no reason for Malenia’s basic attacks not to scale. At least not where she’d be “as low” as the megajoule range if she upscales Tarnished able to kill it in several dozen or even several hundred hits. Why would it make any sense for random monsters to hit vastly harder than the Demigods/Remembrance bosses, who lore-wise are among the strongest beings of the setting? Even Godrick, by how his bossfight functions, would upscale stronger field bosses like drakes. Also again, all that fails we still have Astel’s city sinking feat.
@ Because Malenia doesn’t hit with that much force in any showing of her attacks? She’s still vastly superior to them, she just isn’t causing the damage a meteor does with one slash
I'm kind of surprised *Dragonrot* wasn't brought up once, even if just for an interesting talking point or comparison. Sekiro (the setting) has its own divine-origin rot, and Sekiro's resurrection power is the source of it (not the falling in combat and getting back up, the respawning at Idols like Tarnished respawning at site of grace). His blood stagnates the more he dies which in turn spreads the rot to anyone indirectly as their life force is stolen to make him immortal, causing their blood to stagnate and suffering similar rotting, coughing, etc.. The connections of rot, stagnation, blood, and divinity are interesting. There's also the theme of flowing waters via the Fountainhead, and the great tree the Divine Dragon sits upon which has its own powers associated with it. There's also a LOT of blood and life force in the Lands Between to take from if we assume it works there and he brought a Sculptor's Idol with him, even more so with the outer blood god stuff, so even if Malenia won, the idea that she would have to win countless times if not becoming a victim of Dragonrot herself is kind of funny, but I understand the argument is who would win the FIGHT, not the war. Yes, the Tarnished resurrects due to Grace (potentially? I've seen arguments saying all deaths after the first never canonically happen, but this ain't about him), but this has tangible rules and consequences that can be applied.
The matchup between Sekiro and Malenia would be like the classic argument of unstoppable force (Malenia) vs. immovable object (Sekiro), the only difference being that Sekiro is just as dangerous on the offensive as on the defensive.
@@amineelkezzini5722 tarnished has the strength of runes, godslaying armament, a variety of incantations and spells, and multiple Great Runes along with virtual immortality. Tarnished absolutely slams.
@@BlacklistedSoupSekiro then has an immortality severing sword, thousands of times better agility, speed and reaction time that the Tarnished, several prosthetic tools. Sekiro slams
@@somersaultinggiraffe1901 Sekiro has the mortal blade, above average speed and agility (nothing the tarnished doesn’t have, and an inspector gadget arm that throws ninja stars and has a really big fan. That’s not exactly comparable to the tarnished, the mortal blade is the only thing that compares to anything the tarnished has.
Like the fact that u pointed out the nebulous description of stars in Elden ring , like how tf did he stopped the rotation of stars ? Like they’re light years away from the lands between he just stopped them from doing what ? And when u kill him it’s like sky unfroze itself and what they supposedly call falling stars are actually meteorite / comets that lands …
@@GoulaLegamer I think it’s like the stars positions are predetermined and they all speed up to try to finally get to the positions they were *supposed* to be at
@ but how did he managed to stop them in their supposed course ? I know he use gravity magic but the only thing he seems to do with it is throwing rocks pushing or pulling like he got sum sort of magnetic force but it does not explain how he could influence stars that are far beyond the sky
@ it’s never explicitly stated. Star caller’s cry AoW or Collapsing Star spell is the best we got I think he sorta acts like a gravitational point pushing and pulling them depending on his position, after he fired collapsing star spells at each one individually
I feel you a missing something aswell about Malenia she is a blind swordsman. She is very aware of her surroundings she never attacks blindly no pun intended. She is constantly hearing, feeling everything around her. She tied with Rahdan after going through his army to get to him in the first place he attacked her well she was getting to him not even slowing down she closed that gap and was able to dodge Rahdan as well as rot him and destroy all of calid with the Aeonia attack May not be planetary but it still an impressive feat. never seen Skeiro do this. Not only this Malenia second phase she is able to do that attack freely in a smaller form. Also not implementing where she can use many other attacks in second phase. Sekiro is a player controlled Individual I guarantee you over half the player base in Skerio would lose to her. You are using stuff based on specific builds which is Skeiro were to face her he wouldn't know what rot is or not to counter that. Even rahdan couldn't get it to stop becoming a metor on fire. The fire comment is wrong. It didn't just effect rahdan physicaly but mentally to. I think lore accurate Malenia would win against Skeiro. Malenia also out power scales everything in Skeiro's universe in no universe does skeiro win this fight he is by far the weakest souls protagonist.
The umbrella prosthetic blocks her 2nd phase rot. He's cannonically immortal. And sekiro didnt have the mortal blade by the time he got to armoured knight. Considering the mortal blade can still do damage when some ones blocking, i think it would damage the knight
If only miyazaki let us use the unnaloyed gold needle on radahn instead of millicent And to clarify, promised consord is actually radahn before he mastered Gravity magic, he only does a few gravity related attacks and none of them are particularly strong.
@@damienmcneff7715 but with Miquela´s aid, instead of gravity being represented when he goes to the air, holy sparks show instead, suggesting that miquella helped him to perform said move. in elden ring, the body is the essence of the individual, and radahn wasnt resurrected on his own body, for obvious reasons, instead he was resurrected on mogh´s body, significantly weaker, and the radahn we see on the DLC is the youger one, he was resurreted with the age he had when he initially made his vow to miquella.
@@damienmcneff7715 No, he slammed into the planet in a beam of magical energy that emitted light. If it was actually light speed, the Lands of Shadow would have been obliterated.
@@damienmcneff7715 The lore lied or it's being hyperbolic. Either way, it shows that scaling based on such feats is meaningless. They don't actually behave the way physics dictates that they would, so attempting to apply physics to come to a conclusion is meaningless.
If one puts aside the narrow lens of gameplay and looks at this from the perspective of the lore, it's obvious Malenia curbstomps. Sekiro's setting, while not exactly grounded or realistic, is still supposed to represent real world Japan (only with some fantastical and mythological elements added in). Elden Ring's setting on the other hand fully embraces its high fantasy nature and goes balls to the walls with it. Just compare how Isshin vs. Tamura in the opening cutscene is depicted when stripped of the trappings of gameplay as opposed to how Malenia vs. Radahn is shown in the story trailer: the former is a duel between two master fighters who nonetheless seem like normal humans, whereas the latter is a clash of literal demigods. Another example of this contrast is Margit - the very first major boss the Tarnished encounters and naturally near the bottom of Elden Ring's power hierarchy - who rather casually jumps 20 (?) meters into the air and lands from an even greater height on his feet while quaking the ground. If Margit can do that, just imagine what kinds of superhuman feats someone near the very top of Elden Ring's power ladder can accomplish - someone like Malenia. Certainly remarkable enough to cut Sekiro and probably the whole cast of the game to ribbons without any difficulties. And that's not taking into account Scarlet Rot with which she could probably nuke all of Ashina if she ever had to resort to it (highly unlikely, no one there is coming within a million miles of challenging her like Radahn or the Tarnished did).
Yeah honestly with the way the scale of power is presented in Elden Ring compared to Sekiro, it’s not even fair to compare the 2. Keep in mind, in Elden Ring even normal leyndell knights can casually call upon lightning to strike foes down, whereas in Sekiro that’s a technique only elite okami warriors(there’s like 5), genichiro, and Isshin can perform. Keep in mind, that the Demigods are just on a vastly different plane of scale compared to their knights, that should put in mind how vast the gap between these 2 verses are in strength. On edit something funny I realized. Radahn is just objectively stronger than Astel, something that can just casually summon and drop a bunch of meteors down from space. Yeah no, the power gap between sekiro and ER is too large lmao, this isn’t fair.
@AskwhoQ Agreed. I think the only reason this is even a debate is because people like to laugh at the idea of Malenia being imported into Sekiro due to how much easier she'd be with that game's combat mechanics than Elden Ring's. I remember hearing that sentiment when Elden Ring first released back when people were mad at Malenia and called her a terribly designed boss fight. So while some people may not simply be able to distinguish lore from gameplay or understand that gameplay is an abstraction of the "true" characters and it's simply a matter of poor mental models and/or reasoning, I think with others it might be some sort of psychological defense mechanism - their way of taking their anger out on Malenia vicariously through Sekiro so they can feel like they came out on top in the end and fix their perceived injustice of being, in their mind, unfairly treated by the boss.
but malenia from a gameplay perspective is a terrible boss fight especially as you climb the ng ladder its not an opinion of the people but an objective truth also ER lore states of a swordsman that sealed the god of rot, a seemingly average man, not a demigod, who took on and defeated an outer god, sekiro definitely has a chance even lore wise and lets not forget malenia does eventually get taken out by the tarnished and if you know about slave knight gael's lore, then fromsoft has a recurring theme of absoulute nobodies taking out literal gods even godfrey took out giants and dragons with nothing but raw strength and he is definitely more powerful than malenia and radahn
@@ashlin_jose there’s nothing average about the swordsman, if anything he’s incredibly extraordinary as every text in game talks about his prowess. The fact he sealed away the god of rot and taught Malenia swordplay alone is enough to come to that conclusion. Lore wise, sekiro doesn’t have a chance because the caliber of foes he squares off against aren’t on the same level as Elden Ring character. Hell in sekiro lightning usage is seen as an extraordinary technique only few can use, but in ER leyndell knights can casually summon lightning to strike down enemies, who are inferior to the ancient dragons which the demigods are superior to. The closest sekiro gets is battling the divine dragon who’d at best be on par with the ancient dragons. That’s not even mentioning the fact Malenia’s on par with Radahn who’s able to keep the stars in stasis, which is a feat FAR beyond anything sekiro has gone up against, and would be strange to assume from a lore perspective he could even be on par with the demi gods.
Now this video just seems biased... Yes sekiro is a normal human doing out of the ordinary things. But malenia literally drawed with someone who has star evel power how is anyone in sekiro that strong exactly?
@@Re-Bourne they aren’t, he wins because he can counter literally everything she has and she can’t output enough force to bypass his defenses I also addressed this in the video
I always use this argument and I will continue using it, a character's deeds are of no use in a one-on-one battle, you defeated someone who controls the stars, great, cool, but what are you going to do against someone who reflects all your attacks? The very concept of Elden Ring battles is like that, the bosses are literally gods, but our character dodges the attacks, how do you k1ll something that you can't hit because it just won't stay still in the damn place?
@syrexlee2021 using gameplay mechanics is so dumb, malenia is DESIGNED to be beaten, sekiro is DESIGNED to win because he's a Protagonist and she's a boss.
Lorewise? Malenia, and it's not even close, there's nothing in Sekiro's world that come close to Elden Ring besides the Mortal Blade, which has his own version on Elden Ring as "The Black Blade" it's literally the same thing, but the Rune of Death it's not only a sword, it's a concept, and you know that because sealing the rune of death basically make everyone immortal, no one can die as long as the rune of death is sealed on Maliketh's body, Mortal Blade wouldn't even matter because most of Elden Ring beings aren't immortal because "they have immortality" but because the very concept of death doesn't exist in the Lands Between until the Tarnished got the Rune of Death This comparison only works when you want to reduce Elden Ring's scale to compare with Sekiro's scale, they are not meant to be in the same power scale, Elden Ring is a story about gods, demigods, outer gods and their fight to conquer the Lands Between, Sekiro is a story about corrupted people who wants to accomplish their goals no matter who they harm; and Sekiro just happens to be there. Divine Dragon is the strongest being Sekiro fought, and Sekiro wasn't even able to damage him, you can't use that as an argument because the only possible way Sekiro could damage the Divine Dragon was by redirecting the dragon's own lightning (I don't really know if we played the same game because Sekiro wasn't deflecting the Divine Dragon's Sword but instead he was deflecting the wind product of the Divine Dragon's slices), and we can't even say that Sekiro took down the Divine Dragon because he just pierced through his tear gland. And Divine Dragon is just a weaker Placidusax, Divine Dragon is a god and he's immortal, he's capable of controlling lightning and storms, and Placidusax can do all those too but he's also extremely mobile, he can use spells, teleport, and you know... He took the entire Farum Azula to a place beyond time and space just because he wanted to pray peacefully. Sekiro is not close to the Tarnished in power, while Sekiro is just parrying, deflecting Lighting and setting things on fire, the Tarnished is a walking hydrogen bomb that could literally nuke the entire Ashina Castle if he wants to... And that's Elden Ring power scaling, Malenia Goddess of Rot is the strongest opponent the Tarnished fought, with MAYBE Promised Consort (with Miquella's Blessing) and the Elden Beast being stronger than her. You don't really need to compare the Tarnished and Sekiro to know how powerful Malenia is, as we know for sure that she's one of the strongest beings in a setting were you don't really need to be the strongest to bend time and space, and she does just with her skill, because she was on pair with a gravity controlling 20 feet beast just fighting with her sword mastery, she didn't need any type of magic to do so. Gameplaywise... Yeah, Sekiro could defeat Malenia extremely easy. Edit: By the way... Anti-air deathblow? Really? Try doing that to Isshin or Genichiro to see if that works, this is why you can't use thing that happen on gameplay to compare this beings, or you can just do it when it favors your own opinion... You can't just use an in-game skill as something that Sekiro could do against Malenia because, he isn't even able to use that against any strong opponent, that way we should accept that he did that to Isshin and took him down in less than a couple of seconds, which instantly makes Isshin way weaker than you say he is, because... Yeah... Isshin jumps around quite often.
Since you’re pretty into the Soulsborne games think you could try Lies of P Pinocchio vs Sekiro because that would be a pretty even and unique fight where they both seem pretty even in stats while having some advantages over each other.
@@Son_Kar I’ve made an analysis of it on a Reddit post a year ago. I reached the conclusion that Sekiro was more skilled and could deflect more while P had a better form of immortality and could hit harder. The fight was inconclusive because it seems Sekiro can’t sever P’s type of immortality (depending on how you interpret it/where in the game he is, he might be able to) and with apparently people remembering P rewinding time, P could never beat Wolf due to him also learning from facing P, so it’d be an infinite fight where neither can permanently fell the other, especially because with P’s type of immortality, it’s unlikely he can draw the mortal blade even if he dies to drawing it first
@@damienmcneff7715 All true but there’s other ways of doing a unique fight like that such as A who overall is more powerful based on something like a ranking system ( example being on a scale of 1 to 10 where do they end up, is Sekiro an 8 while Pinocchio is a 7?). B if you ran the fight 100 times who would have the better win to loss ratio. And C in a standard lore accurate fight who would either A give up and admit defeat or B find a way to win by another means like outsmarting and trapping the other.
@@Son_Kar True, I guess you’d have to do option B, but that still doesn’t sit right with me due to how the two fight and come back after every death just to try again, which is why I REALLY want one to be able to beat the other regardless of immortality. Maybe the Lies of P DLC will give me what I want
@@damienmcneff7715 Yeah I can see why you would be hesitant to try a video like that but you gotta admit that would actually be pretty original for a VS video because most are just pitting 2 characters in a standard fight to the death but that’s gotten a bit old in my opinion but something unique like who is superior overall Sekiro or Pinocchio would be a good change of pace or taking a weaker verse like Demon Slayer and seeing how far it’s characters would go in a stronger verse like JJK would be an interesting idea.
It is ludicrous to say that Sekiro can challenge Malenia. Malenia literally used one attack and nuked an entire region and turned a demigod capable of holding stars itself back into a rotting husk, only being kept from rotting by his Great Rune. If Malenia came to Sengoku Era Japan, one Scarlet Aeonia would turn Ashina into a biohazard where abominations roam. And it would eventually spread to all of Japan, rotting down everything. Even if Sekiro would win, which is impossible, Ashina would be rendered wasteland by Malenia's single attack. And encroachment of Rot would mean Japan would soon follow suit. Okina, the demonic swordsman from Elden Ring would be more in the weight class of Sekiro.
@@JustapErsonYou...you do realize gameplay =/= lore r-right? The only reason she didn't do that during the tarnished fight is because that wouldn't be unfair from a gameplay perspective.
Going point by point, because I think some of your scaling for Sekiro is flawed. 1. "Divine Dragon drove out every shento and Buddhist god within Ashina" I might be wrong, but I don't recall anything in the game stating that this was done through combat or direct confrontation. Using this to scale DD above shento and Buddhist gods is like saying Ozymandias outscales Dr. Manhattan because he was able to drive him off the Earth. 2. Scaling DD's swrod slashes It's not clear that DD's sword is made of iron or any metal that is similarly heavy. That assumption seems completely unjustified (again, if there's stuff in the lore that I missed that makes this argument more valid I'd love to hear it). You could argue that the mass of the sword would have to be incredibly high in order to create wind blasts in the way that it does, but it's pretty clear throughout the fight that the dragon can manipulate wind through magical means so that argument is still flimsy. As for the point about the Great Serpent, I'd love to see some of the math for that. 3. Sekiro's attack power This point would require more elaboration on the durability of the enemies he fights. AFAIK none of the enemies in the game are divine beings with the exception of DD, whose skin is only pierced by the mortal blade. Even uprooting the old dragons requires more elaboration, as it's not clear this would require the same amount of strength as uprooting something from the actual ground (keep in mind they seem to be rooted in the clouds, not soil). 4. Speed scaling You argue that scaling Malenia based off the Tarnished's feat of dodging Radahn's lightspeed slash would result in trashmobs being scaled to light speed. However, scaling Sekiro up to supersonic would similarly result in frogs and regular Japanese soldiers being scaled to supersonic, causing the same issue. This is just a limitation of video games, there's no IP in the world that would maintain consistent scaling for all of its enemies here, making this a moot point imo. Also the Shichimen's attack is not a "laser," it's a stream of spirits. There's nothing to support the claim that it moves at lightspeed. 5. Experience scaling Simply being of an older age isn't a viable way to scale combat experience imo. Malenia's 1000 year lifespan was spent almost exclusively honing her combat skills and mastering her fighting style, waging war and leading battles for conquest. I'm not aware of any in-game lore suggesting True Monk had anywhere near this level of combat experience, just that it was extremely old. I actually think Isshin is the stronger argument here, as he's explicitly spent the majority of his life honing his combat skills and fighting wars. But even then, as you mentioned in your video, a 20 year gap in combat experience is nothing compared to a hundreds-of-years gap in combat experience. 6. Outpacing Malenia's Healing I'm not sure how the point about DOH matters here? DOH has no healing factor, and it's not particularly clear that "being a manifestation of hate" makes one especially durable. 7. Sekiro vs Tarnished's Immortality I'm not convinced of the argument that Sekiro is truly immortal the same way the Tarnished is. In the game, the "Return from Death" mechanic can be used a total of twice, and requires him to drain the life force of others before it can be used again. Meanwhile, Tarnished who are guided by the Grace of Gold are canonically confirmed to be able to revive many more times, and in-game the respawn mechanic is established by the lore. If Sekiro's immortality functioned the same way as the Tarnished's, that would contradict Isshin's black mortal blade item description. So while the Tarnished has an unspecified (but likely near-unlimited) amount of resurrections to burn through and learn strategies to combat Malenia, Sekiro does not. At the same time, this would scale Sekiro's combat skill above the Tarnished because he canonically learns relatively intricate attack patterns and moves within 3 canonical deaths, which may end up working out in his favor. I'm not entirely sure whether that upscaling of Sekiro's skill would outweigh the disadvantage he has in terms of mortality, but I think it's something worth taking into account in this analysis. 8. Sekiro and similarity to the blind swordsman Sekiro has limitations on his use of the flowing dance - style combat arts he learns in game. He doesn't seem to actually learn these skills himself, but rather uses Spirit Emblems to channel dead spirits in order to use their knowledge for a limited time. This is explained in further detail here shetanislair.com/en/posts/the-world-of-sekiro-prosthetic-arts-and-spirit-emblems#spirit-emblems So his ability to use dancing / water-like combat styles is severely restricted by his access to spirit emblems, unlike the blind swordsman who mastered this style and is seemingly able to use it without such restrictions. 9. Other scarlet rot considerations Divine Grass - Sekiro only carries one of these at a time (whether that be because of some divine interference or because they're exceedingly rare, I don't think it's particularly relevant why), so while it may save him from the Scarlet Rot the first time, Malenia can inflict the scarlet rot multiple times in battle. Mist Raven - While we don't see the range limitations of this prosthetic explicitly stated in the lore, the way it's used in game makes it seem like it's relatively limited. While it would likely give him enough range to dodge the version of the Aeonia that Malenia uses in the fight against the Tarnished, the Aeonia in Caelid is far, far bigger (larger than basically every attack in Sekiro) and it's not clear that Mist Raven would be able to teleport him outside of its range. 10. Malenia's Durability Just a last thing, because this was a minor nitpick that I think should be mentioned: Miquella's needle is a divine item. The Tarnished is blessed by Grace of Gold, and she herself carries the blessing of an outer god. Everything you mentioned which ends up inflicting harm upon her is influenced by divinity in some way. Ultimately I don't think this matters that much though, as Sekiro is being guided by Buddha so he'd likely be able to pierce her skin regardless.
@@ironman-mf8xx I believe it is mentioned in the game, but I don’t recall the item description, regardless it’s apparent from the lack of deities in Ashina and Fountainhead Palace (which is supposed to be the Land of Kami from Shinto Mythology) that Divine Dragon has driven the other gods away. I address this in the post I linked. I picked Iron because the real life Seven Branch Sword is made of it and when deflecting the physical sword it makes a metallic clank instead of any of the other deflection sounds in game. I didn’t take into account the wind slashes when making the math, just the Blade. The Great Serpent Math is also in that link but because it’s more dubious due to Charmless difficulty making it chip you, I chose the Divine Dragon as his best feat. Okami are divine enemies as well, calling upon godly lightning to combat you, and the Great Serpent is also a god. If you really want to, you can also say Demon of Hatred can qualify as one too. I have the math for uprooting the Dragons, but didn’t include it here because Sekiro’s physical strength doesn’t matter in this matchup as much as his deflection skills do. I didn’t take into account any resistance form being in the ground on that math either, but plan to use it in a future video. A fair criticism. But in Sekiro we can see how much faster certain things are at least, where in Elden Ring, Light speed is relatively close in speed to things considered supersonic. The Shichimen’s laser for all purposes functions like a laser, even producing light, whether it’s made of souls doesn’t change that. I’ve also heard you can get Sekiro to light speed by him dodging lightning but I don’t want to do that because it’s more dubious. Lightspeed slash is also the only confirmed light speed attack from the tarnished anyway. I’m not scaling experience based off their lifespan, but how long they’ve likely been training. Even sealed off from Ashina, the Okami have continued to train as we’ve seen when we reach the palace, so it’s only fair to assume with their long lifespans and being sealed off from Ashina that they continued to hone their skills in that time. I mean that Sekiro can erase 1/3 of the Demon of Hatred’s health in one deathblow, so if he can do that much damage to something that tanky, he should be able to outpace Malenia healing just off him getting a few deathblows. I didn’t address the differences in their immortality because it ultimately didn’t matter. Even if his Okami style has limitations, his Ashina style does not and he can still effectively combat the rot, this is also assuming the fight even lasts that long. Malenia’s Calied Aeonia was the same scale in the trailer as in her fight. It likely got to the size it did just by being around a while. Even if the mist raven couldn’t get him out of range, its fire explosion should guard him from the rot. Sekiro also has divine confetti if he needs divine influence to harm Malenia
Some small corrections because they annoyed me, and also because this is even more of a landslide victory when taking them into account: point 1: Romina invented scarlet rot, not the rot god as stated in her remembrance description point 2: Radahn holding back the stars displays just how skilled he is with gravity magic, he's also maintaining some gravity manipulation on himself during the entire Starscourge fight so Leonard doesn't get pancaked point 3: i think the whole "impenetrable skin" thing meant that Unalloyed gold is the only thing that can easily break her skin (it's still bull but i think this was the idea) point 4: the black mortal blade cannot sever immortality (unless used on oneself), that is a property unique to Gracious Gift of Tears (the red mortal blade) point 5: Sekiro's parry doesn't stop an attack in its tracks but just redirects it so he doesn't need to be strong he just needs to be fast enough to react, tipping the scales even further in his favour
@@burghleyimeanberdly6513 Romina didn’t invent it, its said she found a divine aspect that she shaped into scarlet rot, but even this is a mistranslation, as taking the direct Japanese translation, it’s more closer to just “she found the scarlet rot” The Black Mortal blade likely does also sever immortality, as it’s a Mortal blade and the only implied way Tomoe and Takeru could’ve died, though it’s not outright stated. It’d also be weird that Genichiro and Owl both went out to get a blade that couldn’t kill wolf when they needed a way to get rid of him Some of Sekiro’s deflects upon posture breaks even throw the attacks back in enemies faces, so he’d basically need double the strength to reverse the force completely, so you can make an argument for either way
My main problem with the match up is just how much stronger elden ring as a verse is than sekiro. Like, the full-grown fallingstar beast gets to large town level via the crater it made, so does that mean it can face-tank the entire sekiro verse? It doesn't have the speed scaling to solo it, but like i think you can get my point from there.
@damienmcneff7715 Her speed would be massively hypersonic+ since she is was able to fight against a late game tarnished who, by this point, was able to go up against dragons such as lansseax and fortisaxx who was able to catch lightning from the sky.
@@damienmcneff7715 Malenia in her second phase is a God, and in terms of lore, you need a weapon forged with a Dragon Smithing Stone to kill a God since they twist time. I forgot about the Mortal Blade though. That could make a difference.
I love that no matter how you feel about Dark Souls 2 i personally can't help but love it, so can we all agree that the Majula theme is god damn beautiful to listen to.
Sekiro is just a guy with a sword and can kill pretty well. He terrorizes a country. Malenia can nuke a country with an attack. Can we stop pretending these characters are portrayed with similar scaling of power. Sekiro is a better game ok, but Wolf is not narratively stronger than hyper gods. He never need to upgrade his sword, he just get stronger. Narratively, the Tarnished gets a godslaying weapon just to hurt demi gods and gods. Don’t “he get RL1 unupgraded the game” the canon disagrees. Radahn canonically dies fighting all the summons we spawn in the festival, regardless of if we summon them or not. Elden Ring has characters with absurd powers, Sekiro verse stays relatively tame. That’s all. Edit: oh god you’re a crossover media powerscaler. That explains the bad take.
@@riccard1n0 i’d go further. There’s no such thing as comparing verses unless it’s from the same writers with a consistent formula of writing. Thankfully Sekiro & ER are from the same creative team and the way they portray their characters are relatively consistent. Their intent for Sekiro & ER is pretty obvious. Sekiro is much more grounded while ER goes in high fantasy where you conquer larger than life entities.
@@terencebc yeah, even worst is that he is equalizing two differents kind of combats of two differents verse With their respective gamplay and mechanics. I mean yeah, in Sekiro its pretty much Canon the gameplay, but for like, Elden Ring, Dark Soil or Bloodborn, its not at all
@@terencebc I addressed this and even in Elden Ring, some random nobody mook took on the second strongest thing in the verse and won without being equal in strength. The existence of the Blind Swordsman proves you don’t need to be on the level of things in Elden Ring to beat them if you have counters
@@damienmcneff7715 the blind swordman wasn’t random and only sealed the god, not killed it. This blind swordsman was literally helped by a mystical creature designed to counter the god of rot. Again, modern powerscalers don’t understand how to actually powerscale and autistically focus on realistic feats and measurements when it doesn’t matter. What matters is portrayal. Both Sekirk & ER have similar narrative structures and a similar ending type. The ending where Wolf becomes the evil demon of fire, he’s only a terror of the lands. The ending where the Tarnished is the evil lord of fire, they literally destroy the world. The portrayal is not the same. The Tarnished, and by logic, the higher powers of ER, scale much higher than in Sekiro due to portrayal.
The issue with comparing these characters, are infact NOT comparable since, one is a protagonist and the other is a boss fight.... usually you shouldnt compare a protag to a npc... but rather protag to protag... so like tarnished vs sekiro vise versa. I hate it when they do protags from other games vs npcs from another... the protags 9/10 times will win 😂😂
I suprised no ones mentions that we fight Malenia in the game at like 10% of her power. After her fight with radan she had to be dragged back to where we find her and shes just sat there afk till we come to kill her. Also the idea of equating a character can dodge lighting and so can move as fast as lighting is kinda of silly. its just a limitation of gameplay, not what they are actually doing. the same with how hard either of them can attack. saying each sword swing is the same as 10 kilos of TNT is rediculous. Their weapons would break.
Woah 10%? How did you come up with those numbers? Maybe that's the theory that Malenia is weaker than when she first fought Radahn, due to major necrosis post Scarlet Aeonia, but that's rather untrue. That's considering she was holding her power for the entirety of Radahn's fight and decided to release it as a last resort, which was a fact and that's what happened. She only got more and more powerful, the thing is that the avatars of outer gods don't necessarily get weaker as their body cripples, that's proven through the Lord of Frenzy and Greater Will. And that's a recurring thing in fromsoftware games overall, it's just a method of stripping away humanity from characters.
I've reached around the half waypoint and I already have a huge counter argument that will make anything that you said insignificant. Radahn stoping the stars (which are all the stars, not just some meteors, because not only that no one can read faith in the stars anymore, because they are stoped, but also nothing says that he isn't stoping the stars), which is his normal magic output, magic is something that can't be calculated with what we know of the real world and if we take the gameplay as the cannon (which is dumb because games are made to be playable not to be completly accurate) than magic doesn't need to change form to change how strong they are (the int stat, the bigger it is the stronger the magic is even tho it doesn't change shape, size or speed), so that means that every magic attack from Radahn has potentially the power to stop the stars (he can stop the stars even when he is just a corpse, it takes basically nothing for him to stop tham, so it's more than likely that that is his average or below average output), so Malenia was able to tank attack and or block attacks that are universal level, putting her at universal level or just slightly below. Takeing in consideration that Sekiro doesn't have any feat that comes close (or any that I know of), Malenia takes the win. Sekiro isn't that strong compared to the other souls games, yeah there are like 2 or 3 others weaker than him but there are thouse that have gods in tham as optional enemies that are lorewise weaker than many other bosses, Sekiro fights normal guys, humans and while they can definitly be strong they are never god level.
@@CristianDuta-d9d by this same logic though, Consort should’ve been doing similar but never does, and in the trailer fight against Malenia, Radahn misses an attack meant for Malenia, that even breaks her prosthetic that should be durable enough to withstand her own attacks, and hits the ground, yet the planet is still there and the attack doesn’t even make a crater.
Me when the character based entirely around countering everything you could do to him counters someone: 🤯🤯🤯 Someone like "he couldn't deflect all of the butterflies" my brother in christ this man has the reflexes to deflect every single pellet in a shotgun blast. This man can deflect (and dish out) slashes so quick and powerful that if you don't get cut by the blade the shockwave acts as a second moving blade made out of air.
I think it's fair to count Radahn holding back all the stars in the sky as a valid feat, but it isn't something he would actually use in a fight, so it's more of a hypothetical feat. When we fight him for the first time while he's insane he is still holding back the stars the entire time, so he isn't able to allocate any of that power to fight with, and as the promised consort he's a proud warrior that would want to fight you on as even of a playing field as possible, notice how when he uses his gravity magic to fight he only does it to throw projectiles and occasionally pull you in for an attack. Ultimately unrelated to the video, but I figured I should point it out anyway. Also damn, 155 subscribers but you pulled 21K views and 654 comments, congratulations on that
@@thomasdevlin5825 only the ash of war reaches light speed though, and that’s while as a luminous form, something consort only achieves with Miquella I don’t buy that Consort Radahn is holding back in his fight though. It seems like too a dumb thing to do with the stakes. I don’t know how I broke the algorithm but I did it on the video I wanted too 😎👍
I think the main issue with this matchup is that Sekiro is a protagonist. I wonder if it would be closer to pit Sekiro against the Tarnished. After all, the Tarnished beat Malenia and has so many tools at their disposal. Still, Sekiro is canonically just OP so I assume he’ll win.
@@gamingpond That matchup is much trickier, as it’ll likely come down to how many things the Tarnished has that Sekiro can’t deflect/avoid… which is quite a few, and the scaling from the DLC make Tarnished pretty ridiculous with literal Light Speed reactions, one weapon art that reaches light-speed and potentially the durability to withstand a gamma Ray burst
seems harder to do because the tarnished doesnt have a real move set. its just insert whatever playstyle and items you want. it would just be customize the tarnished into perfect sekiro counter where as wolf has a set amount of item/weapons he canonically uses.
The tarnished power of spirit summoning is OP. Sekiro has a lot of trouble dealing with ganks. Summon like greatshield soldiers or mausoleum soldiers, each with like 5 units and Sekiro is done for.
respect the research youve done and i dont feel anyway about either eide but it feels like theres a lil bias to sekiro when you came to comparing. Enjoyed it though and dropping a like and sub ty for the content
1:17 she didnt match Radhan if u see. She almost died but Radhan was a Honorable Warrior Even Didnt Strike her down but Malenia for Beating Radhan Nuked an large Area and Killed innocent people.
Whe you said this, it literally blew my head. Both are nearly Immortal outside of some exceptions, can stab each other as much as they want, are not afraid of death. Yep. Best training bros
Probably not the outer god, more likely an avatar since outer gods don’t have forms. The only other ways they can interact with the world is through avatars(2 and 3 fingers respectively) or through indirect means(the formless mother blood letting)
@@RipVanWinkleJr oh yeah it’s still impressive, just not as insane as what the video implied because outer gods are on a way different level than their avatars
you don't inherit skills, they are not genetic, unless she is his daughter which she isn't you acquire them and there is no piece of lore that states that malenia's swordsmanship reached his level
Forget everything else mentioned in this video or the comments at all. Just off of raw fighting style/skill, Sekiro wins this fight. When you look at the technical prowess of some of those he's had to face prior, vs. Malenia, her fighting style is more like a "gateway to endgame" level of boss. Her posture ain't living long enough for his deflects, regardless of her heals and the Mortal Draw is just a book closer for basically anything "immortal" related, like these demi-gods. I honestly think Sekiro would struggle far more with more unconventional bosses like Astel and Elden Beast, more than Malenia, based soley on the fact she's actually a warrior who fights relatively on his level - his speciality and certainly not as well as some of his other combatants. Heck, I'd even argue that if ANYONE "human-like" could take on Sekiro and have a better chance, it's the two Omen brothers, Mohg and Morgott. Morgott's fighting style is super unconventional and involves plenty of mixups, with spectral weapons. Maybe they could be dispelled, but, Sekiro only has limited grass and Mohg's blood magic is kinda evil all things considered. Sekiro doesn't have a flask to negate the effects of nihl at all, so he's definitely dying at least once to the attack's effects, even he wins. Tangent aside, I don't think Malenia is Sekiro's scariest match-up here at all. Ironically, she's too honest of a fight to be that scary to him.
Dawg legit why is this a giant conversation, sekiro has no stamina and can parry legit everything, she attacks like 50 times if you parry her just like 20 times her posture is broken, she’s dead 😭
@@damienmcneff7715 tbf radahn also most likely loses to sekiro, unless radahn can somehow get his hands on a mortal blade and use it I guess 😂 even then probably the only move sekiro couldn’t counter from radahn is like his gravity shockwaves but then again sekiro has a crazy vertical so 🤷♂️
Couldn’t help but notice when listing off all of the bizarre things sekiro can deflect, you did not mention the giant snakes, I know they likely aren’t as much of a feat as the divine dragon, but it’s gotta be worth something.
@@dio992 I mentioned it once but people like to discount the snake because it deals chip damage no matter what on charmless. It’s potentially a better feat than the divine dragon though
@@damienmcneff7715Not fully, you can see rot spreading well outside the range of the inner fire ring and into the Dragonbarrow. It’s also just began slightly infecting Limgrave if you notice the grass by the Smouldering Church. Fire seems like an immediate small treatment for the rot, but over very long periods it’s evident that rot overrides the flame.
I support this conclusion....mainly because said anti-immortal sword is considered equal to destined death in lore... Meaning one cut, and malenia coughing up daisies... Sekiro vs the tarnished (lore accurate) would be more debatable, but perhaps an analysis on that would be nice
Also as a side note, sekiro gets underestimated a lot... Although same goes for the tarnished... (Whom in the lore the games creator made, states is able to basically bully their opponents to death to do how powerful they are... Ask Melikath, lore wise they experienced it firsthand...)...
5:01 Radahn has too much pride to just literally throw a sun at you 5:08 he also can't do it in the prime consort fight for two reasons. 1. They are in the land of the shadows where there is no stars. 2. Throwing a star while Miquella being on his back might also kill Miquella since Miquella isn't no where near star level in terms of durability. That makes perfect sense.
@@jasonssgrave I’m sorry my guy, just because Malenia beats him doesn’t make him less of a character. You need to accept your goat isn’t defeating everything.
@@courier6640 I mean it’s obvious she loses gameplay wise, not only is she not designed for Sekiro, but how can a boss “win” against you. It’s a video game you’re going to win eventually.
Excellent video, precisely what i thought would happen. But his most impressive attack that he can deflect is not the dragon but in fact a gaint snake 🐍
Regarding my scaling for Radahn: The only reason I don’t want to use Planetary and above scaling, is because he specifically doesn’t have any attacks that get to that level in his fights, and neither does Malenia (**who’s the main person of discussion here**), as her best possible attack only reached continental at best.
Radahn still did the feat, it just isn’t applicable to his combat
Edit: So I made a mistake. I discovered Nihilus11, who did the Malenia and Radahn calculations, also did one for Malenia’s thrust speed, which clocked in at just over 2000 mps, so there’s an extra speed feat for her, but Sekiro being a consistent lightning timer still edges that out :p
@Twin-Moon-Knight82 in all fairness, the Aeonia still can’t reach planetary levels
@Twin-Moon-Knight82 the Aeonia doesn’t though
@Twin-Moon-Knight82Creation feat’s like creating pocket dimensions are always seen as kinda iffy and inconsistent when applied to a lot of characters that pull them off in fiction so most people don’t use those as actual feat’s, because of that most VS fight’s just use everything besides that.
You’d also have to apply that logic to other series with similar feat’s like Jujitsu Kaisen’s Domain Expansion’s and Genshin Impact’s Adeptus Sub-Space Creation and Realms of Consciousness, for JJK that could get them from Island to Star Level and for Genshin it gets it to anywhere from Star to Solar System Level maybe even higher.
@Twin-Moon-Knight82 Because creation feat as a rule are usually thrown out in VS fights because they don’t apply to actual power during fights and are way too inconsistent with the people who make them in terms of their raw power. I haven’t taken a look at Elden Ring in a long time but from what I remember the first time was just an illusion to protect her mom nothing there was real, the second time was at the end of the game when she’s most likely using the Elden Ring to buff herself.
Yeah that’s why people tend to laugh at JJK whenever they try to power scale because of creation feat’s. But what about Genshin? They literally do the exact same thing with Sub-Space Creation, in their pocket dimensions there’s a whole island, mountains in the distance, a day and night cycle with a sun and moon and stars in the night sky but do people actually use this in VS fight’s? No, nobody does.
That's stupid. Obviously not everything can get represented by the simplistic souls combat. You should be going mad just by looking at Midra, or not respawning if you get hit by Maliketh, but those type of things obviously don't happen.
Like, how are you even supposed to represent in combat that Elden Beast can change the laws of reality? Same thing with Radahn and Malenia.
"Sekiro was just some guy" yeah, so was Godfrey, you know, the guy that Radahn idolised? "Just some guy"s can accomplish a lot in Fromsoftware games.
Like EVERYONE in the lore was just some guy at some point. The Tarnished was a random failed guy who got a second chance. It's such a non argument.
you literally play "some" guy in all these games starting out as a complete weakling lol
the "some guy" in question killing gods, dragons, immortal beings 😭
*cough* Germahn *cough*
the hunter in bloodborne, who might be the first human to transcend humanity, is not only just some guy/gal, they're sickly as fuck at the start, too 😭
The funniest way to win would just be for him to give her the red mortal blade. She would be like "Sweet free sword" then she would just die.
That'd be funny 😂
The funniest way would be him giving her an anti-air deathblow when she's charging up her waterfowl dance
if she gets the sword before the rune of death is unleashed. then she wont completely diec
@@SunWarriorSolaire Good point, make sure you dont accidentally do that.
To be fair, if she's immortal, it would only kill her normally, like when Sekiro first drew it. You need to use it on someone in the proper murderous way to sever their immortality.
Wolf seeing Malenia waterfowl dana a second time and just jumping for a deathblow is an image I want to see
Instant second phase
@@MadMax22 Then instant second phase death. I think that anti-air deathblow could work for more things than just waterfowl in the first phase (maybe not all the jump attacks, but at least the longer ones.).
I think he could parry waterflow dance, no? I'm pretty sure he is able to parry one mind which is similar
@@Magic_Dragon1 if he can parry Fire Isshin, he can most definitely parry waterfowl.
@@redfrog1628 exactly
sekiro no stamina bar. I rest my case.
Lmao the one true biggest weakness of souls characters
Game wise yeah he beats her 😂 but lore wise he get’s smoked
Posture tho?
@@TGx92How?
@@overwatchtheater8165 yeah, but Sekiro just never has his posture break. I mean, sure, if I'm playing it might (a quickly recovered setback if you know what to do), but if we wanna go for what Sekiro can do you wanna put someone like Ongbal behind the wheel because he's reaching the limits of what the in game character can perform.
Imagine sekiro dies the first time, then revives and said "I understand now" and starts parrying every attack
Man who actually thinks Malenia would be a challenge for Wolf like he’d make quick work of her. Just completely forget about her cause she is no where near as hard as Soldier of Godrick.
Soldier of Godrick could beat everything hands down no matter what.
@ fr
Soldier of God, Rick
Dude, I'm still stuck on that fight! It's been a month!
Soldier of Godrick can become Elden lord any time he wants, he just likes the cave he’s in
My favorite theory is that Malenia was supposed to be Tomoe in Sekiro
I think its kinda confirmed. Few years ago I saw video that showed early ver. of her dance, that should've been Tomoe attack.
I dont remember the details sadly
@@alteragosagin4211 the early version is kinda just her flailing around
I have a theory that Lady Tomoe is the Sculptor OR he was taught by Lady tomoe.
A Theory where a person you thought was a Man is actually a woman. I came up with this before Elden Ring came out, AND in Elden Ring RADAGON ends up being QUEEN MARIKA. A dude ends up beings a woman.
Ill only give you two pieces of evidence. On top of the Sculptors shrine is literally a TOMOE SYMBOL. And secondly The Sculptor levels up your Prothetic weapon. IN EVERY FRICKEN SOILS BORNE GAME. The person leveling up your stuff IS A WOMAN.
Ill throw in one last piece of evidence. The sculptor has a technique called chasing slice. Where you throw a projectile and following up with a sword attack. ONLY PEOPLES HES TAUGHT WILL USE THIS TECHNIQUE. WEEEEEELL Genichiro, the guy taught by LADY TOMOE, when he shoots his bow will RUSH IN WITH HIS SWORD. Chasing Slice. Thats a sculptor technique. Hell one last piece of evidence. Iishin said Tomoes attacks were like dances. If you hold the Firecrackers or The Axe weapon. Sekiro will spin in a circle LIKE HE IS DANCING. ANY prosthetic moves givin to Sekiro were created by the Sculptor.
@@MadMax22 The biggest hole in this is that Tomoe was likely a fish woman and is dead
@@MadMax22 Sorry, but those are immensely weak theories. Firstly, Tomoe is a woman, so she isn't the Sculptor. Secondly, Tomoe is dead, as her grave is behind the Ashina Castle and Emma knew her. Thirdly, simply spinning a circle doesn't automatically make it a dance. The Okami warriors in the Fountainhead Palace float around in the air while they perform their dance-like moves. Fourth, that Genichiro who uses the Chasing Slice is fought either in an exaggerated memory, or within Sekiro's heart (as the japanese name says 'shinju Genichiro' which means 'Genichiro within the heart'). The Inner fights have the bosses have strength and know techniques they hoped to have. Fifth, Emma is in a way your Firekeeper/Doll of the game. And sixth, I looked and there is no symbol of Tomoe, as she doesn't have a crest of her own. I'd need some proof of this claim that there's a 'Tomoe symbol' somewhere in the Sculptor's shrine (whatever that means)
This whole video is Can a main character from a souls game beat a side character from another.
Obviously yes.
It feels unfair to call the super boss of a harder game a mearly a “side character”
@onnatsu Melenia is an Optional Boss. By definition she is a side character.
@@doc_vader2776 I mean yeah but I feel like you’re underplaying her, like Joel can’t beat Malenia just because he’s the main character of the last of us, so therefore this is a worthy discussion
@@onnatsu Dumb comparison. I am sure Ryan Reynolds from La La land, Can't beat Melenia either.
@@doc_vader2776 I know! But you’re acting like it’s not even a question if a main character could beat a side character from another game
sekiro surviving getting his soul ripped out his asshole is WILD
Megajoules is not a measurement of force. Its a measurement of Energy. As an engineering major I just couldn't let that go.
@@ftcgaming9261 should I have used Newtons? Cause I was told I can use newtons and joules interchangeably
@@damienmcneff7715 Yeah newtons is force. Newtons more specifically is in units of (kg*m)/s^2 while joules is in units of (kg*m^2)/s^2. So Energy is essentially force times distance.
@@ftcgaming9261 What are they teaching in school? Joules can be applied here lmao your comment even confirms it
@@kay_792 force and energy are two very different things. They can't always be interchanged. Ironic that you talk about school when you clearly never passed middle school science
@@thepanglossian9111 You should learn how to read before commenting, I never said any of those things. Thanks for the flawed lesson.
6:07 almost like that was the whole reason ranni wanted him dead. Radahn held everything back, the stars, the moons, Ranni’s fate, everything was still in cycle (day night phases) but everything in the night sky ceased to move. You didn’t have to say “he was only holding back meteors” when in the very cutscene everything in the night sky started to move again. In the promised consort fight he is much faster than he ever did before but wasn’t as strong as he no longer had the strength of his great rune. With his weapon art literally stating “dash down at the speed of light”
The idea of Sekiro just tackling Malenia as she starts up waterfowl is hilarious.
There are two types of comments here:
1. The guys that actually played Sekiro and are not surprised at all
2. The Elden Ring Fanboys that are trying to cope
Did you like that comment yourself lil guy? 😂
@@ex-matter3192 did you write that comment yourself little guy?
@@haidora9321 Did you comeback to comment that yourself small individual?
@@ex-matter3192 did you come back to be even more petty little princess
@@haidora9321 Yeah, pretty much :3 (thanks for the compliment ☺️)
A lot of your arguments for why melania loses also work for why she loses to a naked guy with a pot on his head. Yes its possible for someone to avoid and counter all her attacks, but assuming sekiro will do that because he's a protagonist and she's a boss is unfair. Based on lore malenia could just as easily dodge all of his attacks. She doesn't in gameplay not because she can't dodge in the lore, but because if the boss could get half a second of I-frames whenever they wanted it wouldn't be fun.
@@ironpro7217 But Sekiro’s fighting style doesn’t rely on that, it relies on countering her, so he’s waiting for her to attack and punishing openings
@@damienmcneff7715Yes, but I don't think its fair to say that just because its possible for him to counter her attacks he will do it consistently enough to kill her. In the same way letmesoloher can dodge all her attacks but saying in lore that build would beat her is silly.
edit: If you let him revive and get as many tries as he likes though then sure
@@ironpro7217 considering it’s implied he beat Isshin first try, who’s a similar speed to Malenia, I think he can do it consistently
Sekiro is the Og Malenia bro. If you look at everything Sekiro can do. Malenia just has his base moveset, Spiral Watercloud, and the ability to grab someone and stab them to basically one shot them.
Sekiro can do all these things PLUS his prosthetic arms and tools. Plus malenia hasnt been shown to be able to master the SINGLE SWORD SWING like sekiro can. In Sekiro the PINNICAL OF TECHNIQUES are Single Sword swings like Dragon Flash, Waterfowl Dance type moves, and moves that launch the Shinobi in the air like Shadow Fall and Sakura Blossom. Malenia can fly but she also isnt necessarily bound to the earth like a samurai so she doesnt need to learn the Orangutans Jumping techniques. But shes never EVER showcased the ability to make a PERFECT CUT like Iishin. Sekiro can. So his sword skills are above Malenia.
Plus with his prothetic tools he can
Teleport (Mist Raven)
Clobber you(Monkey Axe)
Shield from your attacks(Hat Shield)
Can Bazooka you(Flame Barrel)
Can Imbue Flames onto his sword(Living Force)
Can use the same technique to imbue flames on his sword to emporer his MORTAL DRAW (which is like using Destined DEATH. I REPEAT DESTINED DEATH)
He can use his Whistle or Axe to take out her butterfly clones(because he can dispel apparitions)
He can Sneak Attack her to kill her first health bar in one shot (when Sekiro Stabs an enemy and kills them in one shot its INSTANT DEATH because he usually stabs your NECK or your HEART. Only SPECIFIC characters like bosses uses their hands to throw off Sekiros Aim)
@@MadMax22 and good job, you just used game mechanics, cool
Only problem, the gameplay and game meccanic is not Canon in Elden Ring
If only I could parry in Elden Ring just like in Sekiro
@@patata4799 we can get close (if you buy the dlc)
Use the deflecting hardtear
You actually can now with the deflecting tear in the dlc
Oooor if U on pc there a are a lot of mods for that and one of them is genchiro's katana by clever it's my personal favourite
You can, the shield trivializes the game
I always love these discussions because of the pixel to power/speed calculations, but its always funny how we use the power scalings in different universes to justify who would win. I really hope nobody takes the measurements seriously.
@@KeiTheOne991 too late! :D
@@damienmcneff7715 🤣 you funny bro. Take my follow.
15:57 “A giant demon stepping on him.” “A giant demon exploding on him.” 😳😳
Thats how you know its a fromsoft game
I died to Malena's stab cause i tried to mikiri counter her forgetting that im playing elden ring and not Sekiro
Switching from Elden Ring to trying Sekiro with its counters, deflects, and deathblows going back into Elden Ring fucks my muscle memory 😭
I assure you that the devs did not make these characters to be scaled like that. The best way to argue fights is to look at the two verses. The Elden Ring verse has way higher power levels in general. Look at the characters Sekiro fights and then look at the characters the tarnished fights. It's a completely different ballpark. The fact that Sekiro couldn't injure a random knight in armor but then defeating that dragon should tell you all you need about power scaling soulsborne...it just does not work. A random rune bear could give the guardian ape (a major boss) a run for its money. Look at the tools Sekiro has (sword, prosthetics, consumables) and then look at the tools the tarnished has (100+ weapons, 100+ incantations and sorceries, 100+ armor, talismans, consumables, physick flask). There are many ways to argue but the point is Malenia and the Elden Ring verse in general scales way above the Sekiro verse.
@@seiftrabelsi5454 Well you can argue the same for the Outer God of Rot, but the Blind Swordsman still managed to beat it, and it’s on a higher level than even Malenia
@@damienmcneff7715 I feel like sealing it away underground (a seal that is currently breakin as the rot causes the lake above to sink) is different from beating an outer god in a fight.
@@morsadmirari9408 cut off its tail too. If Malenia knocking herself out can count as a tie, sealing the outer god can count as a win
@@damienmcneff7715 We have no idea how that occurred. It may not even have been a conventional fight (unless I'm not aware of something), seeing as the Outer God of Rot doesn't necessarily have a physical avatar aside from the Scarlet Rot itself, which the item descriptions basically lay out for us - the god is the rot itself. The only thing that makes it ambiguous are the words "blade in hand," but that's far from confirmation there was a typical fight involved.
_"A great lake of standing water downstream of the Ainsel River. It is said that the divine essence of an outer god is sealed away in this land."_ - Map (Lake of Rot)
_"The dancer in blue represents a fairy, who in legend bestowed a flowing sword upon a blind swordsman. Blade in hand, the swordsman sealed away an ancient god - a god that was Rot itself."_ - Blue Dancer Charm
You also can't equate Sekiro to the Blind Swordsman since we have no information on the latter. Presuming Sekiro can replicate his feat is baseless.
@@azronger7214 We have the god’s severed tail as a weapon
It isn’t baseless at all because THEY FIGHT THE SAME
It's almost like melania was supposed to be tomoe afflicted with dragonrot.
Take away from the video: Literally nothing can accurately measure up to the power of any Fromsoft game because I could just be some shitter with a giant finger as a weapon, and somehow dodge lightning, lasers, and survive super-mega-ultra scarlet cancer that, while literally killing Demi-gods amongst men, can be mended with a lighter or some moss. (Not to mention the Tarnished can casually shrug off the purest essence of death being wielded as a sword by a furry)
Bro, forgot the most important skill of sekiro.
He got the MC-status
Why on earth would the devine dragons blade be made of iron? I know this sounds unrelated but you shouldn’t even compare sekiro parrying it when we can absolutely not know what that shit is made of.
@@mushroomy9899 I actually explained why in the original Reddit post that was showcased with the images.
The reason why is because the real-life seven branch sword is made of Iron, and because the blade makes a noticeable metal clank sound when deflected, and deflects in Sekiro have specific sounds for the material they’re deflecting, be it wood, metal or human limbs, and the Dragon’s sword makes the sound for metal
To change the material it’s made of, you just have to divide the mass by the density of iron and then just multiply by the material you want to use instead.
I picked iron because it seemed like the safest best for the pre-mentioned reasons
@@damienmcneff7715 yeah, that’s fair, i’m just saying like, it’s a gigantic blue sword which is wielded by an immortal dragon, making guesses about what it’s made of just seems like a bad idea. Like, due to its sheer scale, it can tip the fight in sekiro’s favor SO much. Not to say he wouldn’t win, he probably would, but that gives a huge advantage when it’s pretty much impossible to know for sure what the blade is made of.
@@damienmcneff7715 doesn't matter what it's made of tbh, but I think it could be some sort of magically enhanced Jade
@@dorcusss3693 I tried to calculate it with that and I think it was still somewhere within the 20 MJ range
@@damienmcneff7715 yeah I'm not against your argument or calculations, I'm just being pedantic. It really doesn't matter, but I just wanted to point out a possibility that doesn't really change much. All because of the sword's texture and color.
Why are we using game mechanics and game calcs to scale?… What is canon for Elden Ring is not the gameplay, but the actual lore, unlike Sekiro who mostly base it’s gameplay on the story
In the fight between Radhan and Malenia, both of them were surely nerfed, and not at their full strength, but it is stated that Malenia took the advantage when she released the Scarlet Rot.
Radhan would scale above the Astels, who can create Nebulas of stars, shoot lasers, and create portals from which are transported meteorites which were traveling at an high speed into space.
The stars argument is also pretty weak. Sure, in Elden Ring we can see how the term star is used for all kind of celestial bodies, it it’s because they have a medieval understanding of thing, and take every kind of light emitting celestial body as star, meaning comets, meteorites, Astel Entities and yes, Stars too.
For speed you can put the Sekiro verse at lighting, pretty consistent. For Malenia tho she can dodge lightnings in gameplay, but if we go by lore she should scale to the Tarnished, someone who can dodge lasers, move beyond time (that would put him at immeasurable, but let’s not use it) and yeah, lighting too.
If we take in Sekiro gameplay abilities/skills, once again, it would not make sense, since one verse story is also based on the gameplay, while the other only on the lore
We do not see Radhan using planet busting attack, simply because of gameplay. We know that he can stop Astels, and he would also scale to Ranni/Rennala, which created a universe in its second phase (not an illusion as many think)
The only argum I can see for Sekiro winning would be his immortality, but he need to keep most of his body to regenerate, he cannot regenerate severed limbs. The scarlet Rot could also remain on Sekiro body, just like the Dragon Rot that remain when you die. It’s different in Elden Ring because your body reform after becoming dust
Overall I see Malenia taking every kind of physical stats, beside possibly skill and battle IQ, along with weapon arsenal
The poise and deflection argument is also non sensical. You can use deflection now in Elden Ring, but it doesn’t lower poise in Elden Ring, because again, different kind of game Mechanics, and even if deflected Malenia still does heal for hit?
Malenia Rot is stopped by water, I mean sure, but not completely countered?
Also, the manga is not canon. The comics and Mangas are created by outside groups (the Dark Souls and Bloodborn comics, along with Sekiro Manga, and Elden Ring manga and Web comic). They are not canon, we can literally see a lot of contradiction and differences in the stories between game and manga/comic.
@@riccard1n0 I’m using both lore and gameplay to scale. If Radahn nerfed himself to face Malenia he certainly didn’t when fighting us as Promised Consort, and what he displays there still tracks with my argument.
If he was holding back then, that’s just stupid.
Radahn cannot weaponize stars, where Astels can because they can create portals. Radahn never displays he can pull a star down or anything close to that. Likely because he can’t do that with stars, only halt them. (Stars seem to have predetermined paths in Elden Ring anyways, and Astels can make portals to manipulate them (but are stars themselves))
I’ve already addressed every other point in the video, but for Malenia we can see her top speed with Waterfowl Dance, which only makes shockwaves
She can most likely kill Sekiro in one or two hits, but she has to actually land those hits
@@riccard1n0 I addressed the deflection in Elden Ring, if anything it’s an inferior version of Sekiro’s because it requires stamina, and even enemies in the DLC can deflect you
I addressed this in the video with the blind swordsman
The Sekiro manga IS canon and is a prequel to the game. No contradictions exist in it either.
@@damienmcneff7715 so for base Radhan, honesty he is not as strong as Promised consort, since that version is powered both by Miquella, and Mogh body. I do not think Malenia scale to the Promised Consort at all.
Even then, again, Radhan do not weaponize stars, okay, but his gravitational magic is strong enough to influence countless celestial bodies, and Malenia survived attacks from said Gravitational magic/energy output.
We don’t need to see Radhan attacking by using stars to scale to said lvl, the simple fact that his magic is strong enough to influence them scale his magic energy input to said lvl. Even then, Radhan scale above Astels who can shot Meteorites , and create Nebulas, which are shown and stated as nebulas of stars.
By this fact, Malenia durability would scale much higher than anything Sekiro has, since she resisted said gravitational influence
For speed again, Malenia does not stop at lighting, like at all. Tarnished scale to the Miranda Flower and Stone Worms, that shoot lasers, much, much faster than a lighting.
@@damienmcneff7715 again, they are based on differents kind of gameplay, of course they are different game mechanics and logic, reason why we cannot and should not equalize them in any way.
Also can you tell me where is it stated that Sekiro manga is canon? Cause no outside work was ever shown or stated as such in any Soulsborn game
There is a big difference beetween you see in lore, and gameplay. You cant use gameplay to fully scale how strong a charachter is in lore.
@@paradoxer212 I wasn’t. I was using what we see in cutscenes too
@@damienmcneff7715Even then, cutscenes can’t be truly lore accurate due to how fucking hard it would be to simulate a battle of such scale.
@ dark souls 1 did it
@@damienmcneff7715 malenia in phase 1 may not be too strong, and i dont know how she scales to the tarnished which is ridiculesly powerfull, but in phase 2 malenia trancends to becoming the godess of rot. So she is baisickly an outer God. Idk if that makes her relative to the greater will tho.
@@damienmcneff7715 So if you were to high ball say that she is relative to greater will, then malenia would be outerversal, but i dont think she is.
So i don't have a stake either way in this argument but i will say pitting any protagonist character against any boss is going to be an un fair match up since you can't make a boss in a game actually unbeatable (players would rightful call foul) so the boss has a skill sealing built in that the protagonist does not. In any gameplay matchup the protagonist is going to win because they are designed to win where as bosses are inherently designed to be beaten.
I disagree.
Gameplay ≠ lore, this video does not even go into actual feats done by Malenia and merely goes with gameplay more than lore which is just...ignorant. Look, I love Sekiro and I do want him to win but this is just not it. I get it that it's hard to scale SoulsBorne games but that is precisely why you should've considered every possibility as well as interpretation.
So yes, I still think Malenia would've won regardless of how you scale Wolf.
Edit: People still don't understand why lore does not translate well to gameplay. It's GAMEPLAY, limitations are set for gameplay, spec or budget purposes. It can go either of these three ways but all of them are still a viable enougj reason. If we do get a lore-accurate Malenia fight, the Tarnished won't even be able to lay a hit on her much less defeat her unless the Tarnished is also lore-accurate which is how they portrayed in the gameplay but REALLY toned it down for the sake of any three reasons I stated above. It's a simple concept, if we do get nuclear explosions in the game here and there, not would it only destroy the SoulsBorne gameplay we know and love, it would also cost a lot of money as well as requiring a very high spec rig. Which is why when scaling comes to the play, people rely more on the lore than gameplay.
Hell, I can give you guys one example from Sekiro. The Divine Dragon was said to be able to destroy a town with one swing of its blade but in gameplay, the sword swing projectile isn't even big enough to cover a whole house. You know why? IT'S GAMEPLAY. THINGS NEEDED TO BE TONED DOWN TO SUIT THE DEVS' VISION OF THE GAMEPLAY. It's that simple.
The reason why I think Malenia would win against Sekiro pretty easily is because she simply scales above him in many categories. Sure, you can argue that he could use Raven Feathers to escape but the problem lies to how he would react to an attack faster than he can anticipate or act upon. Not forget to mention, the power behind her blade that could went against Radhan who held off CONSTELLATIONS OF STARS. So how would it be like fighting against her in a Sekiro gameplay perspective? Sekiro could deflect blows sure, but the moment a powerful strike comes, what did it show? A red kanji which indicates unblockable strikes. If Sekiro did went up against Malenia, all of her attacks might as well be all red kanji strikes. It's just that damn powerful.
And the argument regarding Mortal Blade baffles me. It doesn't one-shot, it specifically used to sever immortality which is why every immortal opponent you came across, the finishing blow usually uses the Mortal Blade to, well, SEVER IMMORTALITY. It is to stop them from ressurecting. It can be used as a weapon, yes but it doesn't one-shot immortals. Besides, the Mortal Blade pales in comparison to the effects of Death Rune/Destined Death. Mortal Blade is used to sever immortality, Destined Death is used to kill immortal gods permanently. It's literally a concept being wielded by the Tarnished to kill gods whose layers of immortality transcends above the mortal ones merely because it isn't immortality severance, it is applying death to anything undying or absent of death itself. And the use of it is even more efficient too, have it in your vessel and all of your weapons and magic automatically becomes god-killers meanwhile the Mortal Blade is one specific weapon only.
The skills too are in Malenia's favor. Just because Isshin was said to be the best swordsman as he is called the Sword Saint doesn't mean anything in a world like Elden Ring. Malenia was not just known to the strongest swordsman in Elden Ring she is also known to be unbeatable like Radhan. Think for a second, she is a swordsman known to be unbeatable...IN A WORLD WHERE MAGIC NUCLEAR, UNDYING GODS, WORLD DISTORTION POWERS AND CONCEPTS BEING WIELDED AS A WEAPON EXISTS. That's way more impressive than being the best swordsman in a more grounded world like Sekiro. While supernatural exists and some abnormality, it sure as hell ain't the same as the dark fantasy world of Elden Ring. Yet here is Malenia, in such world, becoming a mere swordsman but was known to be unbeatable. Who do you think has a higher skill level? Yeah, my money goes to Malenia.
While gameplay does tell something, it tends to downplay some things to fit the gameplay style. Some can be taken into consideration but the viability of it can be argued otherwise. Besides that, when scaling SoulsBorne, scale wisely. Otherwise, you're just being ignorant.
@@sammyboi8938 I went over the lore feats as well
I love it when people say Gameplay ≠ Lore and then say "BeCUaSe sEkIro cOuLdNt CuT aRmOreD WaRrIor hE cAnt dEaL dAmAGe to ArMorED EneMIeS" bs. You telling me he couldnt kill the armored warrior with Mortal Draw OR EVEN DRAGON FLASH? The most powerful single strike Iishin was able to create?
Lets not pretend the Devs just wanted to make an interesting fight because within history Swords cant cut through armor and thats the biggest piece of debate between Knights vs Samurai's. (Knight swords couldnt cut through armor OR Chain Mail either btw)
@@MadMax22 I never said that. Pray tell, *when* did I say that? I never did. In fact, I disagree that the whole full armored dude cannot be pierced through with Sabimaru. I think that's just a gameplay thing rather than an in lore feat
@@MadMax22 do note that through glitches, some people have managed to obtain the mortal blade before fighting the armoured warrior and thus have fought him with mortal draw. Mortal draw indeed does health damage through his armor.
@@MadMax22 when did the comment say that?
Malenia is the Tomoe bossfight we never had in Sekiro dlc
Why's it always the smaller channels coming out with the most banger videos?
@@headlessjim6206 because TH-cam has become too stagnant, too many big names copying the others to fall into the algorithm’s hands!
Because unfortunately, this world favors liars, manipulators, and greedy people.
TH-cam doesn't favor truth-telling, honest, people.
This is a sh1tty video. Wdym banger
@@denji3397it’s shitty because you didn’t get your way? It’s high quality and you are ignoring that cause you didn’t get the desired result or answer you yearned for
This video was really well made. I went to like and saw your subs like dang, thought you would have had more. Keep it up!
@@staygrinding9511 I will! Working on the next video now
yea even iam shocked seeing this guys subs
This entire argument is predicated on Radahn not being as strong as he is in the lore. Radahn was able to passively cease the movement of almost all celestial bodies in the knight sky. The naked human eye is capable of seeing less than 1% of the celestial bodies in our universe. Assuming we are able to see at most 0.1% of celestial bodies with the naked eye, and assuming that’s all Radahn stopped, not accounting for the momentum of said celestial bodies, he would need to exert 1.5e+50 Kg in force. That’s 49 zeros at a minimum, which he does PASSIVELY. To say that level of strength has no combat application because we didn’t see Radahn use it like that is laughable. Melania fought Radahn to a stand still, and while she had to resort to the help of an outer God to do it, she still did it. This means that in her Goddess of Rot form she, arguably, is capable of bringing down creatures much stronger than anything Wolf has faced. Take the giant skulls found in Caelid as an example. She also has similar speed to him, and has 100’s, possibly 1000’s, of years of battle experience more than Wolf does. She wins this fight, no contest.
@@thatguy9579 if Radahn has that strength for every one of his attacks, he doesn’t display it. Neither does Malenia. We even see in the trailer the force of their attacks during their clash. If Radahn always attacks with that amount of strength there should be no planet left.
Alright, let’s say Malenia is impossibly stronger. In Elden Ring some nobody regular human 1v1’d that same Outer God she invokes for strength, with counters and a combat style similar to Wolf and won despite the obvious power gap
@@damienmcneff7715 Two reasons: 1. obviously they can’t do that for gameplay purposes. Just like they don’t have most of the enemies and bosses in Sekiro one-shot Wolf (when you’re properly ‘leveled’ for the different areas in the game at least). 2. You’d have to be an idiot to destroy the literal planet that you are standing on.
As for the blind swordsman, Melania learned how to fight from him. He was her teacher. So if she sees a fighting style similar to that of her teacher’s, and thus her own, she would most likely know how to counter it. After all, she was depicted as a tactical genius in the lore.
The point is, if you want to properly scale two characters against one another in an all out brawl, you have to use the lore combined with gameplay to scale them. Otherwise you’re only using half the characters and their feats. You wouldn’t pit the Capcom version of Dr. Doom in Marvel vs. Capcom 2 against Cyborg from Injustice without giving them their respective comic book related feats and weaknesses.
Celestial bodies in the Elden Ring universe clearly don't work the same way they do in real life. One of them falls to the Lands Between following Radahn's death and the impact site is maybe the size of a castle at most.
That said, yeah gameplay isn't an indicator of lore-accurate strength
@@thatguy9579 But gravity powers are always catastrophic in general, and Radahn didn't show his gravity powers against Malenia, so the extensive power of gravity that Radahn showed by holding still the celestial bodies wouldn't be taken into account while we are scaling Malenia, it's a power unique to Radahn and only him, and he never displayed it offensively, so it really doesn't mean anything when we are discussing Malenia. Another point that holds this is that Radahn was off-screened and didn't use his gravity powers offensively in the Malenia's cinematic.
@@thatguy9579 Another aspect to be taken into account is durability, due to your point you are assuming Malenia attack potency is (±) = Radahn's because she was able to trade blows with him, on which you are ignoring many aspects, did he use all that force during the fight? Could he possibly endure his own power? Both of those are answered with no.
As the own gameplay mechanics displayed, the magic powers that Radahn possesses doesn't correlate with his physical prowess, it's his knowledge, affinity and mastery towards that magic that allows him to do such. Knowing that, Sekiro wins against Malenia and pretty much any physical fighter in Elden Ring for many reasons.
I never understood this mindset she literally would destroy Sekiro. She’s older, more powerful, has more battle experience, physical stronger and faster. This video mostly relies on gameplay which isn’t a good barometer for character combat skills because it needs to make sense in the context that the has to ACTUALLY bet her. It’s relies on her acting as a game ai and not a real person that’s a skill general of one of the most successful armies in the Lands Between.
Even if he’s immortal, what’s stopping her from just cutting off his arms and legs once she realizes he can’t die? This logic of Sekiro winning only works if you think Malenia is incredibly stupid. Sekiro or any character from Sekiro will NEVER win against her first phase nor will they ever even see her 2nd. I’ve seen this debate too many times but Elden Rings world is too powerful for Sekiro’s Verse. This isn’t trying to find out who will win, it’s trying to find a way to see how you can make your favorite character win at all costs. It’s Agenda Piece logic ie no logic at all. Look Sekiro losing doesn’t make him less of a character or a game because he can’t bet everything. Guts is not winning against Goku, that doesn’t mean he’s somehow a bad character. He’s absolutely a better written character than Goku but Goku will win ALL the time. This is playground child logic and using Gameplay that’s designed for people is just not substantial enough as well as ignoring all the things Malenia can do.
@@simonealcazar816 what’s stopping her from cutting off his limbs: the fact he’ll deflect her?
Even the trailer cinematic shows her and Radahn fighting as they would in game. I went through every one of her attacks and Wolf has a counter to them all, and even in the lore someone weaker than an outer god was able to beat it just by having counters to it
@@damienmcneff7715 Brother this fight won’t be like the game. This will be a REAL FIGHT. There will be feinting, parry (which Malenia can ALSO do), dodging, sneak attacks, breaking characters guards, sweep attacks, mind games etc. You are looking at this in most one dimensional way possible. Malenia is a seasoned multi war campaign general, fighting extremely powerful enemies. She will be constantly changing her tactics (same as Sekiro of course). She hits harder, is faster and is by far more battle experience than Sekiro.
While Sekiro was a bady in his poop stain rags, she was killing her first knight. Even trying to say, “He bet Isshin.” She’s older than him as well! It’s a meaningless comparison. It’s literally the Hydrogen bomb vs Cuffing Bady meme. Malenia is not just gonna start swinging mindlessly and go “Oh no he can parry me, that it I guess.” No. She’s easily overwhelmed with sheer strength and speed. And once Sekiro revives, it won’t be long before she just decides to cut his limbs and keep him alive or simply knock him out.
You’re right this isn’t even close…for Sekiro. I loathe this conversation because Elden Ring is the highest scaling verse in the Fromsoft souls catalogue. DeS, DaS, and BB, it doesn’t matter. Most of the characters in those games outside strong enemies will barely get past Morgott. Heck they wouldn’t get past not crazy Rennala. It’s boring. Every time this is brought up people have to constantly ignore that blatant power difference so their favorite boss can win.
@@simonealcazar816 I literally listed every way he counters her fighting style
@@damienmcneff7715 Oh my god…You viewing this in a vacuum. As if Malenia will never change up anything, and act like an AI robot. Sekiro is not going to have access to all of his tools, he’s not gonna hammer space all the equipment in the world to use. Once again you’re using video game logic to REAL FIGHT. He not gonna pause the world so he switch to all the tools to directly counter her, it doesn’t matter if he has fire tools, he’s not even getting past normal Malenia. He not going to stand there while Malenia flails at him until she posture breaks and he takes all of her life points. It’s a REAL FIGHT! Which you are failing to grasp.
You know the idea that when people ask, “why do dragons not just stay in the air and just keep blowing fire until their enemies die?” You know what to that answer to that is? “It wouldn’t be fun to play against.” Everything in these games are in service for people to, yes to struggle, but ultimately WIN. Malenia has a few set of moves because if she actually fought as a real person with the combat skills of possibly 100s of year old war general. NO PLAYER WILL WIN.
Once again, using game logic as if the fight will go the same way as the game is a fool’s errand. “He can parry her.” That’s if he’s even fast enough, and even if he is she’ll just start feigning her attacks, sweep attack him, constantly mixing up her attacks. She’s a fencer, you see her wielding a rapier in the Prosthetics Heirloom, the katana isn’t even the only weapon she can use. She can dodge fire balls, lasers, arrows. What the hell is a flame spear and a cheap flamethrower is going to do against her. You think she’s just gonna walk into it? Especially how evasive she is? She always backs up in the fight. What stopping her him breaking his wooden arm in thousands pieces? Nothing. Nothing is stopping her.
ONCE AGAIN, the even before goddess of rot or ignoring that Sekiro’s tools are not infinite even in game. Nothing is stopping Goddess Rot Malenia from just SPAMMING clones at him until he’s completely overwhelmed and no, it will be the same pattern as the game because this will be a fight against REAL PEOPLE not an video game AI.
What’s going to happen, is the fight is gonna barely last 4 minutes at best before she cuts him down, tosses his sword away, removes his ability to walk or just knock him out. Have one of her guards to toss him into the rot pools or something and go to sleep waiting for Miquella. This will be an average Tuesday for Malenia.
Oh and one last thing, “A guy in a naked with a stick can beat her.” My guy….of course…she’s a video game character. Even if we ignore the flawed logic, all those no hitter? Those really skilled players? EVERYONE died to her literally HUNDREDS of times to eventually bet her. It’s takes hours to fully learn her kit. Gameplay immortality is the only reason you win against most bosses in the game. Malenia if was a REAL PERSON, will never allow you to get past your 3rd attempt. Because the moment she realizes outright killing you is not an option, she’s just incapacitating you. No revives. No restarting. That’s it.
@@simonealcazar816 you didn’t watch the video. Did you.
Wait a minute… there’s a manga of Sekiro? I have been living under a rock
@@smilesenpaireincarnated8998 yep. Hanbei the undying side story
8:25 I really hate the argument in Versus Most specifically (death battle) that “if a character dodges a lightning attack they are automatically faster than the speed of light” Sometimes it makes sense for certain characters but most of the times it doesn’t make any sense because its such a power boost. For example in Elden ring when u fight malenia u don’t see her moving at the speed of light and even in lore in the cinematic malenia wasn’t charging at radahn in a blink of an eye.
@@Ghosty-qr7km exactly this
Its more accurate to say they have light levels of reaction time
@@MasteryAdvocates she doesnt though, the lightning in elden ring is slow as shit
I see all the comments flaming him, but take this into consideration. In a From Soft game, it's always normal folks with different skills being able to slay these creatures and legends. The world, the lore, and the gameplay are all designed to be at a similar level to grant enormous scale to the impossible threats you're expected to face.
Wolf can bully any From Soft protag, who can bully any one of these gods. So how is it so incomprehensible that someone noticably stronger and leagues faster than those normal folks that have, AT MOST, Demon Slayer levels of scaling in gameplay; would be able to beat these same creatures?
The one thing I will give y'all is that Wolf is so strong, there is not much room for speculation in Sekiro boss powers and limits, since Wolf is actually strong enough to face all of them and *_win_* while remaining at least 90% lore accurate.
The speculation of power in Elden Ring is absolutely insane. But again, keep this in mind. Everything they can do in lore can be comprehensibly seen in gameplay to a degree.
Ill like to see him parry nihil
That's not even half true.
Wolf is the WEAKEST Fromsoft protag lore wise besides maybe the Demon Souls Protag.
Dark Souls 1-3 have characters that scale to the first flame and the Chosen Undead, who can take on a force that can control time and space.
Elden Rings protag can fight Radahn at full power following the DLC, which at his peak he had enough power to hold back all of the stars in their verse.
Bloodbornes is based on interpretation. Cause if you believe any of the old ones scale to Cthulu's actual mythos, then they far surpass anything the other games have lore wise and feat wise.
@@jellydamgooddon’t need to. He can just die to skip it
@@shirothr5384 the protags in dark souls don't scale to the first flame, Gwyn is practically hollow when we see him and can literally be parried when almost all bosses before him couldn't be. Almost everything in the Souls series is dying or weakened when the protagonist practically mercy kills them, including all those forces that can 'control time and space'
in bloodborne all old ones that are killed were done so with mundane tools. One got fished up and then flogged to death or whatever, and the other three were butchered by the Good Hunter using guns and blades. IIRC, you can literally gun parry the Moon Presence, but regardless they definitely don't scale to Lovecraft's Gods
Wolf is also the only one of the protags whose immortality is confirmed to be canon to the story I believe.
The Hunter's immortality is also a cannon thing, did you even play the game?@@Gungle940
Short answer: Sekiro characters in general are mostly just very powerful and skilled warriors with mostly low level supernatural abilities in lore.
Elden Ring characters lore wise are freaking insane compared to anything in Sekiro.
You claim Radahn's meteor shower stopping feat doesn't mean anything in an actual battle but then again we could claim the same about Sekiro. He can deflect the divine dragon's slashes in that specific realm but he is obviously not that strong when he fights mobs in the mortal realm otherwise he could blow away anyone with a single attack.
We know that somebody like Godfrey could defeat 20m tall fire giants with nothing but sheer strength and his son, Godwyn defeated Fortissax and it was probably them together that killed the colossal Gransax.
Okina in Elden Ring is closer to an average Sekiro level character IMO. He became a very powerful swordsman and challenged Mohg but according to descriptions it wasn't a close battle. He managed to cut Mohg once then he was like: Okay you're not bad but kinda crazy so how about I offer you to live your life as demon with infinite thirst for blood, basically a Shura. Then he meets our character in the end game as he is treated as a basic invader not some legendary foe.
@@valentinvas6454 I literally went over that.
Sekiro consistently can deflect stupid stuff. In the mortal realm he can deflect the explosion of a demon who’s powered by the concept of hatred in all of Japan.
In Elden Ring, he’d be comparable to the Blind Swordsman if he was weilding Destined Death with bloodhound step
The issue with your arguments is that they rely completely on gameplay, which then can be used to ruin your arguments. If malenia wants, she can bloom immediately and nuke the haligtree in scarlet rot. Sekiro would either be rotted immediately, which is a loss, or he uses one of his tools to stop it. Except, those tools use spirit emblems lol, he can't do that infinitely. Do you see why gameplay can't be used for discussions like this? Sekiro can deflect shit so you have a way to avoid it. (Scaling sekiro to light speed is complete bullshit btw, the attack doesnt move at light speed so its not light speed lmao). Malenia's bloom doesn't cover the entire haligtree just so you can avoid it. If you're going to base on argument on gameplay, the main character will 10000% of the time beat out anyone who isn't the main character, simply because they can avoid damage, and the boss cannot lol. Gameplay is not convincing evidence. The issue with this match-up entirely and why I hate it, is that sekiro has no lore feats, and crazy gameplay feats, while malenia has insane lore feats, and mid af gameplay feats. So it just comes down to what you think matters more. I tend to think gameplay is always exaggerated for the player, so it's not fair to judge using it, unless your comparing two main characters.
@ I mean… we have a cutscene showing just how her Aeonia is in scale
And my arguments DO include lore on both sides
@damienmcneff7715 we have an entire region of the game showing what her bloom does. The cutscene isn't necessary. And please tell me where you used the fact that malenia very well could be near light speed if you want to get technical, as radahn very possibly was light speed. We can't know for sure because power scaling fromsoft characters is stupid because they're so vague and up to interpretation by design. Stop trying to scale a character with only gameplay to back him up, vs. a character with only really lore that's up to interpretation to back her up. It's dumb.
@ I already addressed this in the video.
CONSORT Radahn is light speed. Starscourge is not.
No. It’s my video
My biggest problem with the whole “radahn didnt use the stars during the fight ergo hes not that level” is that it ignore that he still cares about the world. When you fight him he protects his horse and even shoves it into the sand to prevent it from being hurt by his phase change slam from space. So him not using his gravity magic to drops stars on you is likely because he doesnt want to destroy the lands between with that level of power. Also it is kinda a feat towards him that he can literally hold back the stars and everything else in the sky and while doing that still hard stalemate malenia
@@MangoMan139 But then you have the Consort fight where he should still be able to do that but needs Miquella’s aid to use a meteor attack that’s stronger than Starscourge’s
As a physicist i must say that hearing 66,000,000 mega joules just makes me giggle as only 4 million MJ is the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. whatever impact and shockwave absorbed by wolf is more than 10x the impact of that nuke (assumed linear it is not linear fyi). And will poison him from the ionising radiation emissions due to level of energy those that collision will have (~15% of the total energy if it were to act like a nuke). Ik that game logic can be scuffed bc he’s immortal and all that but immortality without regeneration would mean his turbo cancer from one attack would kill himself and whatever opponent was hit so long as they don’t have what id call toon-level regeneration
@@ilolami5399 don’t worry. We just give people dragon super cancer to fix that regular super cancer
Also this is hilarious
(I really don’t understand how they got that number anyways XD my math was barely a fraction of their result)
wait? why is it a bad thing that the tarnished beats her? the tarnished is really strong when you deep dive into the lore.
edit: 10:20 i got my answer
edit: regarding sekiro beating a god, i did not know that. ive seen only 1 sekiro playthrough years ago
funny thing i found using the umbrella prosthetic damien is YOU CAN PARRY GRABS WITH IT INCLUDING THE SWORD LOL
there are particular perilous attacks you cannot parry with your sword though it depends on your knowledge which and which not to deflect when faced with perilous attacks
so basically sekiro is ALSO immune to grab attacks like genichiros fist slam in the gut
sekiro literally cannot be outcountered
@@juniedomanillo9390 oh yeah. I forgot to mention that grab does nothing XD Umbrella is just the most busted prosthetic
Literally nothing in her kit is a threat to him
@@juniedomanillo9390 umbrella is the only way i defeated Ape.
I hate his grabs((
@@damienmcneff7715 not to mention the aged feathers prosthetic
bro is also immune to basic and magic attacks like it or not
@ divine/holy as well due to the Sakura bull
And then there’s the fire umbrella
I still believe the mortal blade wouldn't work on Malenia's immortality. The reason for this, is that the whole thing with the blades (And wolf's journey) entirely revolves around the divine dragon, as does all immortality you see throughout the game. Like it's a specialty tool designed to end immortality that stems from the divine dragon, and extract its tears for immortal severance. It's literally called the "Gracious Gift of Tears"
Also unrelated but Wolf didn't learn all those moves in one night. He just remembered them, essentially his old muscle memory kicking in after the 3 years in jail.
There is such thing as equivalency, like Mortal Blade = rune of destined death, I believe
I feel like this is severe low-balling for Malenia all things considered. Why is Malenia capped at the megajoules range when she should scale above *at least* monsters like the Fallingstar Beast who’d tank the impact of landing in the Lands Between.
Hell you bring up a few VSBW calcs and the Fallingstar Beasts alone are calc’ed up to the Divine Dragon’s level over there.
@@ArsayumTheThird Her Aeonia could likely get way above that if you chose the interpretation that it destroyed the Sellia area, but as I said in the video, it’s more likely that other than the epicenter the spread of the rot was gradual
Malenia’s basic slashes are in the Megajoules range. Every one of her individual slashes has that amount of force, which is the equivalent of a tank blast
@@damienmcneff7715 @damienmcneff7715 (Re-send since it seems YT took the original reply down for my linking to a calc, apologies if you can see the original and this looks like a dupe reply)
I don't think you seemed to catch my point? If the Fallingstar Beast's landing onto the Lands Between has been calc'ed equal to or higher (depending on how you do it) than the Divine Dragon's sword swing in energy, wouldn't Malenia vastly upscale since it's a mid-level boss for anyone in the early-mid game, far below the early-endgame boss Malenia is. They're juveniles of actual Remenbrance bosses like Astel, who also have a massive feat of sinking the Eternal Cities deep underground, and both variants are encountered before entering the Haligtree.
Plus there are calcs of even the Stone Golem hitting the gigajoules worth of energy, who even early game Tarnished scale far above. Apologies for having to separate the link like this, but TH-cam no likey apparently:
htt ps://the-lounges-battles.fandom. com/wiki/User_blog:DcDoesPhysics/Golem_Archer_Massive_Arrow
@ Upscaling to the crater they make upon impact? Why would she? She never makes a crater such as that or does an attack that has the force of a meteor. (Unless you wanna argue her nuke)
I don’t see a problem with the golems hitting harder than Malenia, but this math has an error too. They used a cylinder for the end of the arrow’s volume and weight, which already makes it incorrect, but the calc reaches 22 gigajoules, which I don’t see a problem with.
You can argue Malenia’s nuke can reach this level but there’s no reason her basic slashes or waterfowl should.
Regardless, Divine Dragon still outputs more force.
Malenia likely doesn’t one shot these guys after all anyways
@
It’s a durability feat for the Fallingstar Beasts. They tank crash landing onto the planet, Tarnished have no issues kicking their butt, ergo Malenia upscales. Even if you went the gameplay route of it taking dozens to hundreds of hits to put down, that’s still waaay above the Megajoule scaling she was given. Not to mention the whole point is that they’re *uninjured* by such impacts yet Tarnished have no issue harming them.
There is a pretty big issue in Golems somehow being stronger than Malenia: She hits harder than the golems. Like literally. Or heck she’d upscale the likes of Godrick who can (or his minions at least) kill the far larger and stronger dragons for grafting.
Why wouldn’t her basic attacks scale? It’s not like she’s treated as hundreds to thousands of times weaker than such creatures are durable. Even in-game logic would have most Tarnished taking out Fallingstar Beasts in a few dozen hits. But again they are the premise is they are *unharmed* by meteor impacting into the ground yet the Tarnished harms them. There’s no reason for Malenia’s basic attacks not to scale. At least not where she’d be “as low” as the megajoule range if she upscales Tarnished able to kill it in several dozen or even several hundred hits. Why would it make any sense for random monsters to hit vastly harder than the Demigods/Remembrance bosses, who lore-wise are among the strongest beings of the setting? Even Godrick, by how his bossfight functions, would upscale stronger field bosses like drakes.
Also again, all that fails we still have Astel’s city sinking feat.
@ Because Malenia doesn’t hit with that much force in any showing of her attacks?
She’s still vastly superior to them, she just isn’t causing the damage a meteor does with one slash
26:19 Yoo that's my badly drawn thumbnail!
Good video btw!
@@Limebee_ I just realized you’re the only art I didn’t credit… do you have a link I can put in the description?
@@damienmcneff7715 Nah it's all good don't worry, I drew it like in 5 minutes so it doesn't matter
I'm kind of surprised *Dragonrot* wasn't brought up once, even if just for an interesting talking point or comparison. Sekiro (the setting) has its own divine-origin rot, and Sekiro's resurrection power is the source of it (not the falling in combat and getting back up, the respawning at Idols like Tarnished respawning at site of grace). His blood stagnates the more he dies which in turn spreads the rot to anyone indirectly as their life force is stolen to make him immortal, causing their blood to stagnate and suffering similar rotting, coughing, etc.. The connections of rot, stagnation, blood, and divinity are interesting.
There's also the theme of flowing waters via the Fountainhead, and the great tree the Divine Dragon sits upon which has its own powers associated with it.
There's also a LOT of blood and life force in the Lands Between to take from if we assume it works there and he brought a Sculptor's Idol with him, even more so with the outer blood god stuff, so even if Malenia won, the idea that she would have to win countless times if not becoming a victim of Dragonrot herself is kind of funny, but I understand the argument is who would win the FIGHT, not the war.
Yes, the Tarnished resurrects due to Grace (potentially? I've seen arguments saying all deaths after the first never canonically happen, but this ain't about him), but this has tangible rules and consequences that can be applied.
The matchup between Sekiro and Malenia would be like the classic argument of unstoppable force (Malenia) vs. immovable object (Sekiro), the only difference being that Sekiro is just as dangerous on the offensive as on the defensive.
Gameplay wise Sekiro would probably be able to beat her but if we're going purely off the lore there is no way Sekiro is able to defeat Malenia.
lore wise no way tarnished would beat her either
@@amineelkezzini5722 tarnished has the strength of runes, godslaying armament, a variety of incantations and spells, and multiple Great Runes along with virtual immortality. Tarnished absolutely slams.
@@BlacklistedSoupSekiro then has an immortality severing sword, thousands of times better agility, speed and reaction time that the Tarnished, several prosthetic tools. Sekiro slams
@@somersaultinggiraffe1901 Sekiro has the mortal blade, above average speed and agility (nothing the tarnished doesn’t have, and an inspector gadget arm that throws ninja stars and has a really big fan. That’s not exactly comparable to the tarnished, the mortal blade is the only thing that compares to anything the tarnished has.
@@BlacklistedSoup sure buddy, come back when the Tarnished can actually run faster than a turtle and doesn't die to five foot drops.
Like the fact that u pointed out the nebulous description of stars in Elden ring , like how tf did he stopped the rotation of stars ? Like they’re light years away from the lands between he just stopped them from doing what ? And when u kill him it’s like sky unfroze itself and what they supposedly call falling stars are actually meteorite / comets that lands …
@@GoulaLegamer I think it’s like the stars positions are predetermined and they all speed up to try to finally get to the positions they were *supposed* to be at
@ but how did he managed to stop them in their supposed course ? I know he use gravity magic but the only thing he seems to do with it is throwing rocks pushing or pulling like he got sum sort of magnetic force but it does not explain how he could influence stars that are far beyond the sky
@ it’s never explicitly stated. Star caller’s cry AoW or Collapsing Star spell is the best we got
I think he sorta acts like a gravitational point pushing and pulling them depending on his position, after he fired collapsing star spells at each one individually
1:58 you forgot ranni as a empyrean
@@chandu.1802 yeah. I’ve been told T_T
5:28 dawg fucking imagine Radahn actually just hurling stats down at you that’d be insane
I feel you a missing something aswell about Malenia she is a blind swordsman. She is very aware of her surroundings she never attacks blindly no pun intended. She is constantly hearing, feeling everything around her. She tied with Rahdan after going through his army to get to him in the first place he attacked her well she was getting to him not even slowing down she closed that gap and was able to dodge Rahdan as well as rot him and destroy all of calid with the Aeonia attack May not be planetary but it still an impressive feat. never seen Skeiro do this. Not only this Malenia second phase she is able to do that attack freely in a smaller form. Also not implementing where she can use many other attacks in second phase. Sekiro is a player controlled Individual I guarantee you over half the player base in Skerio would lose to her. You are using stuff based on specific builds which is Skeiro were to face her he wouldn't know what rot is or not to counter that. Even rahdan couldn't get it to stop becoming a metor on fire. The fire comment is wrong. It didn't just effect rahdan physicaly but mentally to. I think lore accurate Malenia would win against Skeiro. Malenia also out power scales everything in Skeiro's universe in no universe does skeiro win this fight he is by far the weakest souls protagonist.
The umbrella prosthetic blocks her 2nd phase rot. He's cannonically immortal. And sekiro didnt have the mortal blade by the time he got to armoured knight. Considering the mortal blade can still do damage when some ones blocking, i think it would damage the knight
If only miyazaki let us use the unnaloyed gold needle on radahn instead of millicent
And to clarify, promised consord is actually radahn before he mastered Gravity magic, he only does a few gravity related attacks and none of them are particularly strong.
@@ZeePanzer he slammed into the planet at light speed from orbit
@@damienmcneff7715 but with Miquela´s aid, instead of gravity being represented when he goes to the air, holy sparks show instead, suggesting that miquella helped him to perform said move. in elden ring, the body is the essence of the individual, and radahn wasnt resurrected on his own body, for obvious reasons, instead he was resurrected on mogh´s body, significantly weaker, and the radahn we see on the DLC is the youger one, he was resurreted with the age he had when he initially made his vow to miquella.
@@damienmcneff7715 No, he slammed into the planet in a beam of magical energy that emitted light. If it was actually light speed, the Lands of Shadow would have been obliterated.
@ says he’s light speed
@@damienmcneff7715 The lore lied or it's being hyperbolic.
Either way, it shows that scaling based on such feats is meaningless. They don't actually behave the way physics dictates that they would, so attempting to apply physics to come to a conclusion is meaningless.
I haven't played Sekiro, but after watching this video, I am required to do so. Great video!
If one puts aside the narrow lens of gameplay and looks at this from the perspective of the lore, it's obvious Malenia curbstomps. Sekiro's setting, while not exactly grounded or realistic, is still supposed to represent real world Japan (only with some fantastical and mythological elements added in). Elden Ring's setting on the other hand fully embraces its high fantasy nature and goes balls to the walls with it. Just compare how Isshin vs. Tamura in the opening cutscene is depicted when stripped of the trappings of gameplay as opposed to how Malenia vs. Radahn is shown in the story trailer: the former is a duel between two master fighters who nonetheless seem like normal humans, whereas the latter is a clash of literal demigods. Another example of this contrast is Margit - the very first major boss the Tarnished encounters and naturally near the bottom of Elden Ring's power hierarchy - who rather casually jumps 20 (?) meters into the air and lands from an even greater height on his feet while quaking the ground. If Margit can do that, just imagine what kinds of superhuman feats someone near the very top of Elden Ring's power ladder can accomplish - someone like Malenia. Certainly remarkable enough to cut Sekiro and probably the whole cast of the game to ribbons without any difficulties. And that's not taking into account Scarlet Rot with which she could probably nuke all of Ashina if she ever had to resort to it (highly unlikely, no one there is coming within a million miles of challenging her like Radahn or the Tarnished did).
Yeah honestly with the way the scale of power is presented in Elden Ring compared to Sekiro, it’s not even fair to compare the 2. Keep in mind, in Elden Ring even normal leyndell knights can casually call upon lightning to strike foes down, whereas in Sekiro that’s a technique only elite okami warriors(there’s like 5), genichiro, and Isshin can perform. Keep in mind, that the Demigods are just on a vastly different plane of scale compared to their knights, that should put in mind how vast the gap between these 2 verses are in strength.
On edit something funny I realized. Radahn is just objectively stronger than Astel, something that can just casually summon and drop a bunch of meteors down from space. Yeah no, the power gap between sekiro and ER is too large lmao, this isn’t fair.
@AskwhoQ Agreed. I think the only reason this is even a debate is because people like to laugh at the idea of Malenia being imported into Sekiro due to how much easier she'd be with that game's combat mechanics than Elden Ring's. I remember hearing that sentiment when Elden Ring first released back when people were mad at Malenia and called her a terribly designed boss fight. So while some people may not simply be able to distinguish lore from gameplay or understand that gameplay is an abstraction of the "true" characters and it's simply a matter of poor mental models and/or reasoning, I think with others it might be some sort of psychological defense mechanism - their way of taking their anger out on Malenia vicariously through Sekiro so they can feel like they came out on top in the end and fix their perceived injustice of being, in their mind, unfairly treated by the boss.
but malenia from a gameplay perspective is a terrible boss fight especially as you climb the ng ladder
its not an opinion of the people but an objective truth
also ER lore states of a swordsman that sealed the god of rot, a seemingly average man, not a demigod, who took on and defeated an outer god, sekiro definitely has a chance even lore wise
and lets not forget malenia does eventually get taken out by the tarnished
and if you know about slave knight gael's lore, then fromsoft has a recurring theme of absoulute nobodies taking out literal gods
even godfrey took out giants and dragons with nothing but raw strength and he is definitely more powerful than malenia and radahn
@@ashlin_jose there’s nothing average about the swordsman, if anything he’s incredibly extraordinary as every text in game talks about his prowess. The fact he sealed away the god of rot and taught Malenia swordplay alone is enough to come to that conclusion. Lore wise, sekiro doesn’t have a chance because the caliber of foes he squares off against aren’t on the same level as Elden Ring character. Hell in sekiro lightning usage is seen as an extraordinary technique only few can use, but in ER leyndell knights can casually summon lightning to strike down enemies, who are inferior to the ancient dragons which the demigods are superior to. The closest sekiro gets is battling the divine dragon who’d at best be on par with the ancient dragons. That’s not even mentioning the fact Malenia’s on par with Radahn who’s able to keep the stars in stasis, which is a feat FAR beyond anything sekiro has gone up against, and would be strange to assume from a lore perspective he could even be on par with the demi gods.
Also Wolf has His own rot that means If he dies the dragonrot would also spread
Now this video just seems biased... Yes sekiro is a normal human doing out of the ordinary things. But malenia literally drawed with someone who has star evel power how is anyone in sekiro that strong exactly?
@@Re-Bourne they aren’t, he wins because he can counter literally everything she has and she can’t output enough force to bypass his defenses
I also addressed this in the video
@@damienmcneff7715are you using gameplay mechanics as your argument💀
@@NoahCallenbergwhich are literally same in the lore💀💀💀
I always use this argument and I will continue using it, a character's deeds are of no use in a one-on-one battle, you defeated someone who controls the stars, great, cool, but what are you going to do against someone who reflects all your attacks? The very concept of Elden Ring battles is like that, the bosses are literally gods, but our character dodges the attacks, how do you k1ll something that you can't hit because it just won't stay still in the damn place?
@syrexlee2021 using gameplay mechanics is so dumb, malenia is DESIGNED to be beaten, sekiro is DESIGNED to win because he's a Protagonist and she's a boss.
The tank VS the anti-tank gun
Lorewise? Malenia, and it's not even close, there's nothing in Sekiro's world that come close to Elden Ring besides the Mortal Blade, which has his own version on Elden Ring as "The Black Blade" it's literally the same thing, but the Rune of Death it's not only a sword, it's a concept, and you know that because sealing the rune of death basically make everyone immortal, no one can die as long as the rune of death is sealed on Maliketh's body, Mortal Blade wouldn't even matter because most of Elden Ring beings aren't immortal because "they have immortality" but because the very concept of death doesn't exist in the Lands Between until the Tarnished got the Rune of Death
This comparison only works when you want to reduce Elden Ring's scale to compare with Sekiro's scale, they are not meant to be in the same power scale, Elden Ring is a story about gods, demigods, outer gods and their fight to conquer the Lands Between, Sekiro is a story about corrupted people who wants to accomplish their goals no matter who they harm; and Sekiro just happens to be there.
Divine Dragon is the strongest being Sekiro fought, and Sekiro wasn't even able to damage him, you can't use that as an argument because the only possible way Sekiro could damage the Divine Dragon was by redirecting the dragon's own lightning (I don't really know if we played the same game because Sekiro wasn't deflecting the Divine Dragon's Sword but instead he was deflecting the wind product of the Divine Dragon's slices), and we can't even say that Sekiro took down the Divine Dragon because he just pierced through his tear gland. And Divine Dragon is just a weaker Placidusax, Divine Dragon is a god and he's immortal, he's capable of controlling lightning and storms, and Placidusax can do all those too but he's also extremely mobile, he can use spells, teleport, and you know... He took the entire Farum Azula to a place beyond time and space just because he wanted to pray peacefully.
Sekiro is not close to the Tarnished in power, while Sekiro is just parrying, deflecting Lighting and setting things on fire, the Tarnished is a walking hydrogen bomb that could literally nuke the entire Ashina Castle if he wants to... And that's Elden Ring power scaling, Malenia Goddess of Rot is the strongest opponent the Tarnished fought, with MAYBE Promised Consort (with Miquella's Blessing) and the Elden Beast being stronger than her.
You don't really need to compare the Tarnished and Sekiro to know how powerful Malenia is, as we know for sure that she's one of the strongest beings in a setting were you don't really need to be the strongest to bend time and space, and she does just with her skill, because she was on pair with a gravity controlling 20 feet beast just fighting with her sword mastery, she didn't need any type of magic to do so.
Gameplaywise... Yeah, Sekiro could defeat Malenia extremely easy.
Edit: By the way... Anti-air deathblow? Really? Try doing that to Isshin or Genichiro to see if that works, this is why you can't use thing that happen on gameplay to compare this beings, or you can just do it when it favors your own opinion... You can't just use an in-game skill as something that Sekiro could do against Malenia because, he isn't even able to use that against any strong opponent, that way we should accept that he did that to Isshin and took him down in less than a couple of seconds, which instantly makes Isshin way weaker than you say he is, because... Yeah... Isshin jumps around quite often.
Holy yap
Your yapping is pretty good I like it, makes sense
Since you’re pretty into the Soulsborne games think you could try Lies of P Pinocchio vs Sekiro because that would be a pretty even and unique fight where they both seem pretty even in stats while having some advantages over each other.
@@Son_Kar I’ve made an analysis of it on a Reddit post a year ago. I reached the conclusion that Sekiro was more skilled and could deflect more while P had a better form of immortality and could hit harder.
The fight was inconclusive because it seems Sekiro can’t sever P’s type of immortality (depending on how you interpret it/where in the game he is, he might be able to) and with apparently people remembering P rewinding time, P could never beat Wolf due to him also learning from facing P, so it’d be an infinite fight where neither can permanently fell the other, especially because with P’s type of immortality, it’s unlikely he can draw the mortal blade even if he dies to drawing it first
@@damienmcneff7715 All true but there’s other ways of doing a unique fight like that such as A who overall is more powerful based on something like a ranking system ( example being on a scale of 1 to 10 where do they end up, is Sekiro an 8 while Pinocchio is a 7?).
B if you ran the fight 100 times who would have the better win to loss ratio.
And C in a standard lore accurate fight who would either A give up and admit defeat or B find a way to win by another means like outsmarting and trapping the other.
@@Son_Kar True, I guess you’d have to do option B, but that still doesn’t sit right with me due to how the two fight and come back after every death just to try again, which is why I REALLY want one to be able to beat the other regardless of immortality. Maybe the Lies of P DLC will give me what I want
@@damienmcneff7715 Yeah I can see why you would be hesitant to try a video like that but you gotta admit that would actually be pretty original for a VS video because most are just pitting 2 characters in a standard fight to the death but that’s gotten a bit old in my opinion but something unique like who is superior overall Sekiro or Pinocchio would be a good change of pace or taking a weaker verse like Demon Slayer and seeing how far it’s characters would go in a stronger verse like JJK would be an interesting idea.
Meanwhile the tarnished watching the fight laughing at how weak they both are.
...after dying 2-million times.
Sekiro fought a dragon in the realm of the gods, and that wasnt even the final boss a MAN was and then theres the secret demon boss
It is ludicrous to say that Sekiro can challenge Malenia. Malenia literally used one attack and nuked an entire region and turned a demigod capable of holding stars itself back into a rotting husk, only being kept from rotting by his Great Rune.
If Malenia came to Sengoku Era Japan, one Scarlet Aeonia would turn Ashina into a biohazard where abominations roam. And it would eventually spread to all of Japan, rotting down everything.
Even if Sekiro would win, which is impossible, Ashina would be rendered wasteland by Malenia's single attack. And encroachment of Rot would mean Japan would soon follow suit.
Okina, the demonic swordsman from Elden Ring would be more in the weight class of Sekiro.
@@matiasluukkanen7718 Okina helped beat Radahn…
Silly argument. She can do that, but she doesn't always. She didn't during the fight with the tarnished, and tarnished beat her as a result.
@@JustapErsonYou...you do realize gameplay =/= lore r-right?
The only reason she didn't do that during the tarnished fight is because that wouldn't be unfair from a gameplay perspective.
insane how you only have 500 subs... left you one there i want to see more videos like that
@@sandrales98 sweet. In the middle of making my next one now
Going point by point, because I think some of your scaling for Sekiro is flawed.
1. "Divine Dragon drove out every shento and Buddhist god within Ashina"
I might be wrong, but I don't recall anything in the game stating that this was done through combat or direct confrontation. Using this to scale DD above shento and Buddhist gods is like saying Ozymandias outscales Dr. Manhattan because he was able to drive him off the Earth.
2. Scaling DD's swrod slashes
It's not clear that DD's sword is made of iron or any metal that is similarly heavy. That assumption seems completely unjustified (again, if there's stuff in the lore that I missed that makes this argument more valid I'd love to hear it). You could argue that the mass of the sword would have to be incredibly high in order to create wind blasts in the way that it does, but it's pretty clear throughout the fight that the dragon can manipulate wind through magical means so that argument is still flimsy. As for the point about the Great Serpent, I'd love to see some of the math for that.
3. Sekiro's attack power
This point would require more elaboration on the durability of the enemies he fights. AFAIK none of the enemies in the game are divine beings with the exception of DD, whose skin is only pierced by the mortal blade. Even uprooting the old dragons requires more elaboration, as it's not clear this would require the same amount of strength as uprooting something from the actual ground (keep in mind they seem to be rooted in the clouds, not soil).
4. Speed scaling
You argue that scaling Malenia based off the Tarnished's feat of dodging Radahn's lightspeed slash would result in trashmobs being scaled to light speed. However, scaling Sekiro up to supersonic would similarly result in frogs and regular Japanese soldiers being scaled to supersonic, causing the same issue. This is just a limitation of video games, there's no IP in the world that would maintain consistent scaling for all of its enemies here, making this a moot point imo.
Also the Shichimen's attack is not a "laser," it's a stream of spirits. There's nothing to support the claim that it moves at lightspeed.
5. Experience scaling
Simply being of an older age isn't a viable way to scale combat experience imo. Malenia's 1000 year lifespan was spent almost exclusively honing her combat skills and mastering her fighting style, waging war and leading battles for conquest. I'm not aware of any in-game lore suggesting True Monk had anywhere near this level of combat experience, just that it was extremely old. I actually think Isshin is the stronger argument here, as he's explicitly spent the majority of his life honing his combat skills and fighting wars. But even then, as you mentioned in your video, a 20 year gap in combat experience is nothing compared to a hundreds-of-years gap in combat experience.
6. Outpacing Malenia's Healing
I'm not sure how the point about DOH matters here? DOH has no healing factor, and it's not particularly clear that "being a manifestation of hate" makes one especially durable.
7. Sekiro vs Tarnished's Immortality
I'm not convinced of the argument that Sekiro is truly immortal the same way the Tarnished is. In the game, the "Return from Death" mechanic can be used a total of twice, and requires him to drain the life force of others before it can be used again. Meanwhile, Tarnished who are guided by the Grace of Gold are canonically confirmed to be able to revive many more times, and in-game the respawn mechanic is established by the lore.
If Sekiro's immortality functioned the same way as the Tarnished's, that would contradict Isshin's black mortal blade item description.
So while the Tarnished has an unspecified (but likely near-unlimited) amount of resurrections to burn through and learn strategies to combat Malenia, Sekiro does not. At the same time, this would scale Sekiro's combat skill above the Tarnished because he canonically learns relatively intricate attack patterns and moves within 3 canonical deaths, which may end up working out in his favor.
I'm not entirely sure whether that upscaling of Sekiro's skill would outweigh the disadvantage he has in terms of mortality, but I think it's something worth taking into account in this analysis.
8. Sekiro and similarity to the blind swordsman
Sekiro has limitations on his use of the flowing dance - style combat arts he learns in game. He doesn't seem to actually learn these skills himself, but rather uses Spirit Emblems to channel dead spirits in order to use their knowledge for a limited time.
This is explained in further detail here shetanislair.com/en/posts/the-world-of-sekiro-prosthetic-arts-and-spirit-emblems#spirit-emblems
So his ability to use dancing / water-like combat styles is severely restricted by his access to spirit emblems, unlike the blind swordsman who mastered this style and is seemingly able to use it without such restrictions.
9. Other scarlet rot considerations
Divine Grass - Sekiro only carries one of these at a time (whether that be because of some divine interference or because they're exceedingly rare, I don't think it's particularly relevant why), so while it may save him from the Scarlet Rot the first time, Malenia can inflict the scarlet rot multiple times in battle.
Mist Raven - While we don't see the range limitations of this prosthetic explicitly stated in the lore, the way it's used in game makes it seem like it's relatively limited. While it would likely give him enough range to dodge the version of the Aeonia that Malenia uses in the fight against the Tarnished, the Aeonia in Caelid is far, far bigger (larger than basically every attack in Sekiro) and it's not clear that Mist Raven would be able to teleport him outside of its range.
10. Malenia's Durability
Just a last thing, because this was a minor nitpick that I think should be mentioned: Miquella's needle is a divine item. The Tarnished is blessed by Grace of Gold, and she herself carries the blessing of an outer god. Everything you mentioned which ends up inflicting harm upon her is influenced by divinity in some way. Ultimately I don't think this matters that much though, as Sekiro is being guided by Buddha so he'd likely be able to pierce her skin regardless.
@@ironman-mf8xx I believe it is mentioned in the game, but I don’t recall the item description, regardless it’s apparent from the lack of deities in Ashina and Fountainhead Palace (which is supposed to be the Land of Kami from Shinto Mythology) that Divine Dragon has driven the other gods away.
I address this in the post I linked. I picked Iron because the real life Seven Branch Sword is made of it and when deflecting the physical sword it makes a metallic clank instead of any of the other deflection sounds in game. I didn’t take into account the wind slashes when making the math, just the Blade. The Great Serpent Math is also in that link but because it’s more dubious due to Charmless difficulty making it chip you, I chose the Divine Dragon as his best feat.
Okami are divine enemies as well, calling upon godly lightning to combat you, and the Great Serpent is also a god. If you really want to, you can also say Demon of Hatred can qualify as one too.
I have the math for uprooting the Dragons, but didn’t include it here because Sekiro’s physical strength doesn’t matter in this matchup as much as his deflection skills do. I didn’t take into account any resistance form being in the ground on that math either, but plan to use it in a future video.
A fair criticism. But in Sekiro we can see how much faster certain things are at least, where in Elden Ring, Light speed is relatively close in speed to things considered supersonic.
The Shichimen’s laser for all purposes functions like a laser, even producing light, whether it’s made of souls doesn’t change that. I’ve also heard you can get Sekiro to light speed by him dodging lightning but I don’t want to do that because it’s more dubious. Lightspeed slash is also the only confirmed light speed attack from the tarnished anyway.
I’m not scaling experience based off their lifespan, but how long they’ve likely been training. Even sealed off from Ashina, the Okami have continued to train as we’ve seen when we reach the palace, so it’s only fair to assume with their long lifespans and being sealed off from Ashina that they continued to hone their skills in that time.
I mean that Sekiro can erase 1/3 of the Demon of Hatred’s health in one deathblow, so if he can do that much damage to something that tanky, he should be able to outpace Malenia healing just off him getting a few deathblows.
I didn’t address the differences in their immortality because it ultimately didn’t matter.
Even if his Okami style has limitations, his Ashina style does not and he can still effectively combat the rot, this is also assuming the fight even lasts that long.
Malenia’s Calied Aeonia was the same scale in the trailer as in her fight. It likely got to the size it did just by being around a while. Even if the mist raven couldn’t get him out of range, its fire explosion should guard him from the rot.
Sekiro also has divine confetti if he needs divine influence to harm Malenia
bro how this guy got only 161 subs hes makin quality videos
@@IsaiahAnderson-ct7dh on a phone.
I made this on a phone because all my stuff is in storage!!
Some small corrections because they annoyed me, and also because this is even more of a landslide victory when taking them into account:
point 1: Romina invented scarlet rot, not the rot god as stated in her remembrance description
point 2: Radahn holding back the stars displays just how skilled he is with gravity magic, he's also maintaining some gravity manipulation on himself during the entire Starscourge fight so Leonard doesn't get pancaked
point 3: i think the whole "impenetrable skin" thing meant that Unalloyed gold is the only thing that can easily break her skin (it's still bull but i think this was the idea)
point 4: the black mortal blade cannot sever immortality (unless used on oneself), that is a property unique to Gracious Gift of Tears (the red mortal blade)
point 5: Sekiro's parry doesn't stop an attack in its tracks but just redirects it so he doesn't need to be strong he just needs to be fast enough to react, tipping the scales even further in his favour
@@burghleyimeanberdly6513 Romina didn’t invent it, its said she found a divine aspect that she shaped into scarlet rot, but even this is a mistranslation, as taking the direct Japanese translation, it’s more closer to just “she found the scarlet rot”
The Black Mortal blade likely does also sever immortality, as it’s a Mortal blade and the only implied way Tomoe and Takeru could’ve died, though it’s not outright stated. It’d also be weird that Genichiro and Owl both went out to get a blade that couldn’t kill wolf when they needed a way to get rid of him
Some of Sekiro’s deflects upon posture breaks even throw the attacks back in enemies faces, so he’d basically need double the strength to reverse the force completely, so you can make an argument for either way
@@damienmcneff7715 oh, didnt realise it was a mistranslation!
@@burghleyimeanberdly6513 I didn’t even know until last week, I thought it was weird they were implying she had some hand in its creation
Melania's moveset is from a cut Sekiro boss (Tomoe) and her waterfoul dance move is the Spiral Cloud Passage.
My main problem with the match up is just how much stronger elden ring as a verse is than sekiro.
Like, the full-grown fallingstar beast gets to large town level via the crater it made, so does that mean it can face-tank the entire sekiro verse? It doesn't have the speed scaling to solo it, but like i think you can get my point from there.
@@alguem5645 It has a huge weakness to getting poked in the eye though
gameplay =/= in lore speed
@@atomskthepirateking2776 and what would be Malenia’s in lore speed then
@damienmcneff7715 Her speed would be massively hypersonic+ since she is was able to fight against a late game tarnished who, by this point, was able to go up against dragons such as lansseax and fortisaxx who was able to catch lightning from the sky.
@@skeletalcypress7176 cool. Sekiro has fought enemies who can do the same
@2:58 🤣🤣🤣 as someone who lived there I can confirm thats what it looks and feels like.
Lorewise, since Kusabimaru is not forged with a Dragon Smithing Stone, Wolf could not kill Malenia in her second phase.
@@Nemo12417 That’s not at all how that works. Plus he has the mortal blade
@@damienmcneff7715 Malenia in her second phase is a God, and in terms of lore, you need a weapon forged with a Dragon Smithing Stone to kill a God since they twist time.
I forgot about the Mortal Blade though. That could make a difference.
@@Nemo12417 the mortal blade straight up works like a weapon fused with destined death, like maliketh sword or the black knifes that killed godwyn
I love that no matter how you feel about Dark Souls 2 i personally can't help but love it, so can we all agree that the Majula theme is god damn beautiful to listen to.
Sekiro is just a guy with a sword and can kill pretty well. He terrorizes a country. Malenia can nuke a country with an attack. Can we stop pretending these characters are portrayed with similar scaling of power.
Sekiro is a better game ok, but Wolf is not narratively stronger than hyper gods. He never need to upgrade his sword, he just get stronger. Narratively, the Tarnished gets a godslaying weapon just to hurt demi gods and gods. Don’t “he get RL1 unupgraded the game” the canon disagrees. Radahn canonically dies fighting all the summons we spawn in the festival, regardless of if we summon them or not. Elden Ring has characters with absurd powers, Sekiro verse stays relatively tame.
That’s all.
Edit: oh god you’re a crossover media powerscaler. That explains the bad take.
@@terencebc yeah… i think he doesn’t really understand how verse equilivazation work
@@riccard1n0 i’d go further. There’s no such thing as comparing verses unless it’s from the same writers with a consistent formula of writing. Thankfully Sekiro & ER are from the same creative team and the way they portray their characters are relatively consistent. Their intent for Sekiro & ER is pretty obvious. Sekiro is much more grounded while ER goes in high fantasy where you conquer larger than life entities.
@@terencebc yeah, even worst is that he is equalizing two differents kind of combats of two differents verse With their respective gamplay and mechanics. I mean yeah, in Sekiro its pretty much Canon the gameplay, but for like, Elden Ring, Dark Soil or Bloodborn, its not at all
@@terencebc I addressed this and even in Elden Ring, some random nobody mook took on the second strongest thing in the verse and won without being equal in strength. The existence of the Blind Swordsman proves you don’t need to be on the level of things in Elden Ring to beat them if you have counters
@@damienmcneff7715 the blind swordman wasn’t random and only sealed the god, not killed it. This blind swordsman was literally helped by a mystical creature designed to counter the god of rot.
Again, modern powerscalers don’t understand how to actually powerscale and autistically focus on realistic feats and measurements when it doesn’t matter. What matters is portrayal.
Both Sekirk & ER have similar narrative structures and a similar ending type. The ending where Wolf becomes the evil demon of fire, he’s only a terror of the lands. The ending where the Tarnished is the evil lord of fire, they literally destroy the world. The portrayal is not the same. The Tarnished, and by logic, the higher powers of ER, scale much higher than in Sekiro due to portrayal.
The issue with comparing these characters, are infact NOT comparable since, one is a protagonist and the other is a boss fight.... usually you shouldnt compare a protag to a npc... but rather protag to protag... so like tarnished vs sekiro vise versa.
I hate it when they do protags from other games vs npcs from another... the protags 9/10 times will win 😂😂
I mean just flip the script on them. I'd argue that the Tarnished can beat every boss in Sekiro.
great video, the arguments were sound, the conclusion made sense and it was well structured. definitely worth a sub.
My favorite theory is HIS NAME IS WOLF
If anything, this has convinced me that Sekiro traveled to the lands between and became the blind swordsman and trained Malenia
@@Cappy-Bara *Sekiro intentionally blinding himself because he’s too OP for the Lands Between*
How does he only have 133 subs I thought he would have at least 40k until I saw that number
I suprised no ones mentions that we fight Malenia in the game at like 10% of her power. After her fight with radan she had to be dragged back to where we find her and shes just sat there afk till we come to kill her. Also the idea of equating a character can dodge lighting and so can move as fast as lighting is kinda of silly. its just a limitation of gameplay, not what they are actually doing. the same with how hard either of them can attack. saying each sword swing is the same as 10 kilos of TNT is rediculous. Their weapons would break.
Because we don't, in the second phase we fight Malenia after being reborn as the perfect embodiment of the scarlet rot, that's the peak of her power.
Woah 10%? How did you come up with those numbers?
Maybe that's the theory that Malenia is weaker than when she first fought Radahn, due to major necrosis post Scarlet Aeonia, but that's rather untrue.
That's considering she was holding her power for the entirety of Radahn's fight and decided to release it as a last resort, which was a fact and that's what happened.
She only got more and more powerful, the thing is that the avatars of outer gods don't necessarily get weaker as their body cripples, that's proven through the Lord of Frenzy and Greater Will.
And that's a recurring thing in fromsoftware games overall, it's just a method of stripping away humanity from characters.
I've reached around the half waypoint and I already have a huge counter argument that will make anything that you said insignificant.
Radahn stoping the stars (which are all the stars, not just some meteors, because not only that no one can read faith in the stars anymore, because they are stoped, but also nothing says that he isn't stoping the stars), which is his normal magic output, magic is something that can't be calculated with what we know of the real world and if we take the gameplay as the cannon (which is dumb because games are made to be playable not to be completly accurate) than magic doesn't need to change form to change how strong they are (the int stat, the bigger it is the stronger the magic is even tho it doesn't change shape, size or speed), so that means that every magic attack from Radahn has potentially the power to stop the stars (he can stop the stars even when he is just a corpse, it takes basically nothing for him to stop tham, so it's more than likely that that is his average or below average output), so Malenia was able to tank attack and or block attacks that are universal level, putting her at universal level or just slightly below. Takeing in consideration that Sekiro doesn't have any feat that comes close (or any that I know of), Malenia takes the win.
Sekiro isn't that strong compared to the other souls games, yeah there are like 2 or 3 others weaker than him but there are thouse that have gods in tham as optional enemies that are lorewise weaker than many other bosses, Sekiro fights normal guys, humans and while they can definitly be strong they are never god level.
@@CristianDuta-d9d by this same logic though, Consort should’ve been doing similar but never does, and in the trailer fight against Malenia, Radahn misses an attack meant for Malenia, that even breaks her prosthetic that should be durable enough to withstand her own attacks, and hits the ground, yet the planet is still there and the attack doesn’t even make a crater.
Me when the character based entirely around countering everything you could do to him counters someone: 🤯🤯🤯
Someone like "he couldn't deflect all of the butterflies" my brother in christ this man has the reflexes to deflect every single pellet in a shotgun blast. This man can deflect (and dish out) slashes so quick and powerful that if you don't get cut by the blade the shockwave acts as a second moving blade made out of air.
I think it's fair to count Radahn holding back all the stars in the sky as a valid feat, but it isn't something he would actually use in a fight, so it's more of a hypothetical feat. When we fight him for the first time while he's insane he is still holding back the stars the entire time, so he isn't able to allocate any of that power to fight with, and as the promised consort he's a proud warrior that would want to fight you on as even of a playing field as possible, notice how when he uses his gravity magic to fight he only does it to throw projectiles and occasionally pull you in for an attack. Ultimately unrelated to the video, but I figured I should point it out anyway.
Also damn, 155 subscribers but you pulled 21K views and 654 comments, congratulations on that
@@thomasdevlin5825 only the ash of war reaches light speed though, and that’s while as a luminous form, something consort only achieves with Miquella
I don’t buy that Consort Radahn is holding back in his fight though. It seems like too a dumb thing to do with the stakes.
I don’t know how I broke the algorithm but I did it on the video I wanted too 😎👍
I think the main issue with this matchup is that Sekiro is a protagonist. I wonder if it would be closer to pit Sekiro against the Tarnished. After all, the Tarnished beat Malenia and has so many tools at their disposal. Still, Sekiro is canonically just OP so I assume he’ll win.
@@gamingpond That matchup is much trickier, as it’ll likely come down to how many things the Tarnished has that Sekiro can’t deflect/avoid… which is quite a few, and the scaling from the DLC make Tarnished pretty ridiculous with literal Light Speed reactions, one weapon art that reaches light-speed and potentially the durability to withstand a gamma Ray burst
seems harder to do because the tarnished doesnt have a real move set. its just insert whatever playstyle and items you want. it would just be customize the tarnished into perfect sekiro counter where as wolf has a set amount of item/weapons he canonically uses.
The tarnished power of spirit summoning is OP. Sekiro has a lot of trouble dealing with ganks. Summon like greatshield soldiers or mausoleum soldiers, each with like 5 units and Sekiro is done for.
@@Messmer-The-Impaler-n8i one problem… they’re ghosts. Malcontent for the win
@@damienmcneff7715 but it doesn't work against the spirits that spawn in Twilight time in Sekiro....
respect the research youve done and i dont feel anyway about either eide but it feels like theres a lil bias to sekiro when you came to comparing. Enjoyed it though and dropping a like and sub ty for the content
1:17 she didnt match Radhan if u see. She almost died but Radhan was a Honorable Warrior Even Didnt Strike her down but Malenia for Beating Radhan Nuked an large Area and Killed innocent people.
Fuckin a right! Chadhan ftw
Am I the only one who thinks they would become training buddies instead of actually fighting to death?
Whe you said this, it literally blew my head. Both are nearly Immortal outside of some exceptions, can stab each other as much as they want, are not afraid of death. Yep. Best training bros
People forget the only limit of Souls protagonist is the players' skill. If the player is good enough, the character is capable of matching it.
This got really funny towards the end when you started talking about all the ways Sekiro would demolish Malenia. Amazing job :)!
I think malenia would win because her teacher defeated the outer god of rot with pure skill and she inherited his skills
Probably not the outer god, more likely an avatar since outer gods don’t have forms. The only other ways they can interact with the world is through avatars(2 and 3 fingers respectively) or through indirect means(the formless mother blood letting)
@@AskwhoQ Still just as insane of a feat
@@RipVanWinkleJr oh yeah it’s still impressive, just not as insane as what the video implied because outer gods are on a way different level than their avatars
you don't inherit skills, they are not genetic, unless she is his daughter which she isn't
you acquire them and there is no piece of lore that states that malenia's swordsmanship reached his level
Forget everything else mentioned in this video or the comments at all. Just off of raw fighting style/skill, Sekiro wins this fight. When you look at the technical prowess of some of those he's had to face prior, vs. Malenia, her fighting style is more like a "gateway to endgame" level of boss. Her posture ain't living long enough for his deflects, regardless of her heals and the Mortal Draw is just a book closer for basically anything "immortal" related, like these demi-gods. I honestly think Sekiro would struggle far more with more unconventional bosses like Astel and Elden Beast, more than Malenia, based soley on the fact she's actually a warrior who fights relatively on his level - his speciality and certainly not as well as some of his other combatants. Heck, I'd even argue that if ANYONE "human-like" could take on Sekiro and have a better chance, it's the two Omen brothers, Mohg and Morgott. Morgott's fighting style is super unconventional and involves plenty of mixups, with spectral weapons. Maybe they could be dispelled, but, Sekiro only has limited grass and Mohg's blood magic is kinda evil all things considered. Sekiro doesn't have a flask to negate the effects of nihl at all, so he's definitely dying at least once to the attack's effects, even he wins. Tangent aside, I don't think Malenia is Sekiro's scariest match-up here at all. Ironically, she's too honest of a fight to be that scary to him.
He has a healing gourd that is basically like a flask
Dawg legit why is this a giant conversation, sekiro has no stamina and can parry legit everything, she attacks like 50 times if you parry her just like 20 times her posture is broken, she’s dead 😭
@@xzarielx1 because Radahn exists
@@damienmcneff7715 tbf radahn also most likely loses to sekiro, unless radahn can somehow get his hands on a mortal blade and use it I guess 😂 even then probably the only move sekiro couldn’t counter from radahn is like his gravity shockwaves but then again sekiro has a crazy vertical so 🤷♂️
@ I still don’t buy universal Radahn 🤷♀️
Sekiro could absorb the holy meteor Consort Radahn does with the legendary ☂️ umbrella
that one unemployed friend on a random tuesday:
Couldn’t help but notice when listing off all of the bizarre things sekiro can deflect, you did not mention the giant snakes, I know they likely aren’t as much of a feat as the divine dragon, but it’s gotta be worth something.
@@dio992 I mentioned it once but people like to discount the snake because it deals chip damage no matter what on charmless. It’s potentially a better feat than the divine dragon though
Counter arguments. What would happen if malenia like in lore nuked the whole continent
@@NigrumTigris Fire stops it. The fire walls prove that
@@damienmcneff7715 fair enought
@@damienmcneff7715Not fully, you can see rot spreading well outside the range of the inner fire ring and into the Dragonbarrow. It’s also just began slightly infecting Limgrave if you notice the grass by the Smouldering Church. Fire seems like an immediate small treatment for the rot, but over very long periods it’s evident that rot overrides the flame.
fire prevents its spread, it won't stop the explosion immediately on top of him.
@@sebastianestrada3697 you are right. Radhan's great rune also Say that the fire of is great rune could only reduce the speed of the spread
I support this conclusion....mainly because said anti-immortal sword is considered equal to destined death in lore... Meaning one cut, and malenia coughing up daisies... Sekiro vs the tarnished (lore accurate) would be more debatable, but perhaps an analysis on that would be nice
Also as a side note, sekiro gets underestimated a lot... Although same goes for the tarnished... (Whom in the lore the games creator made, states is able to basically bully their opponents to death to do how powerful they are... Ask Melikath, lore wise they experienced it firsthand...)...
I mostly agree with this. This is an amazing video! Great job! 👍🏻
5:01 Radahn has too much pride to just literally throw a sun at you
5:08 he also can't do it in the prime consort fight for two reasons.
1. They are in the land of the shadows where there is no stars.
2. Throwing a star while Miquella being on his back might also kill Miquella since Miquella isn't no where near star level in terms of durability.
That makes perfect sense.
@@mushroomisntplant5888 Miquella is the one buffing him to light speeds!
@@damienmcneff7715 I have said nothing about Radahn's speed. I just said what you said plus I added why he can't really attack you with the stars.
Malenia wins :3
Lies
@@jasonssgrave I’m sorry my guy, just because Malenia beats him doesn’t make him less of a character. You need to accept your goat isn’t defeating everything.
@@simonealcazar816Bro i never said he’s my goat what🤣 Stop yapping all i said was lies
Indeed. Lore-Wise, she probably stomps Wolf. Gameplay-Wise, Wolf low diffs her.
But Wolf is not a hot waifu, ao he loses by default.
@@courier6640 I mean it’s obvious she loses gameplay wise, not only is she not designed for Sekiro, but how can a boss “win” against you. It’s a video game you’re going to win eventually.
Excellent video, precisely what i thought would happen. But his most impressive attack that he can deflect is not the dragon but in fact a gaint snake 🐍
@@Mausyboi true, but due to it dealing chip damage on charmless, people like to discount it
Awesome video idea bro but no… Malenia dog walks Sekiro lol.
celest bro what u doing here