Sorry prof but cinematography is a lot more subjective than power level. This years hot new summer block busters don’t have a mana crypt in 10 out of the 10 decks they brought.
Great video. Many of these principles about having a conversation about goals and a debrief to have the best shared experience as possible can also be applied to other group games like DnD!
Something else about the End of Game debrief: Talk about how fuckin' COOL other people's decks were. "Dude that combo is dirty, I love it." "I can't believe you managed to out-value me!" "That gimmick works better than it has any right to."
"Hey, that's the same combo that everyone on Magic Online is using, with Thassa's Oracle and decking yourself. You knew I was playing Mono-Red and you still went for it regardless, I can respect that."
I will always remember one of the most fun pods I've played was one in which one of my friends sat down and said "alright everyone get out your weakest deck" it ended up being one of the most fun, actually competitive games I've played to this day.
Pauper cube always surprises my friends at how competitive the games are. Rarity doesn't necessarily always speak to power level with some interactions but it is assumed that the cards are weaker by default so surprises are abound.
I had the opposite problem (well, sort of, it made for a fun story). Playing EDH with my friend, decide to try out my Kamigawa block Iname as One deck which I assume is garbo but it's my first run with it. Turn four I drop Infernal Kirin. Next turn I play a 5 drop, and they reveal like four or five 5 drops and scoop :P.
my opinion is that competitive does not mean playing cedh but rather with decks matched in power level. "weakest" unfortunately is not a good descriptor as someones weakest deck might still be head and shoulders above someones else weakest deck. eg my weakest deck would be phenax that i need to try very very hard to win any games with but it will still mash precons to a pulp. prof. also mentioned voltrons. those decks power cannot be judged in vacuum as they will lose hard to decks using grave pact or pilow forts but will stomp value decks. it's just that short discussion before game is always better than using subjective descriptors.
@@GanicoGSx the first time it is said is from Vageta when Krillin and him are talking about how Piccolo is fighting toe to toe with Freaza's second form. Vageta: "Either Freaza hit me harder then I thought..." Krillin: "Or?" Vageta: "Or power levels are bullshit!" Lol
This reminds me of Dan Savage when discussing when two potentially intimate partners meet and that they should ask "Hey what kind of stuff are you into?"
@@jameshayes-barber9340 Indeed. One usually does it on a table, and you always feel deep shame when you finish. Always wash your hands after touching your cards.
I know it seems silly, but as someone who struggles with how I feel about myself due to balding, I really appreciate how you discussed the topic during your ad.
open and honest communication is the key to literally all relationships, be they romantic, professional, platonic, or anything else, and this is no exception hecking great video as always
I always play stacks when I notice a new play group doesn't have much interaction. It's my way of teaching, if you can't interact you have a hard time finding wins.
Sweet merciful, I'd love to play this on a loop for some people. It's a card game, and I spent a couple of bucks on my Commander deck, so I'd like to play with more than 3 turns.
I mean I play more magic in those 3 turns than my old battlecruiser did in 10, and I play in like playgroups, more magic in less turns is still more magic total
Honest conversation about what you want out of a game is the only catch-all solution to balanced games. For example, I want games where I end up being the monologuing villain, threateningly eliminating one or two people before dying to hubris.
See, I just want to be an agent of chaos. One game I had a Day of Judgement in hand. The player next to me was Superfriends with a Lilianna Vess ready to ultimate. We were conspiring to clear the board (except for one of my creatures that would be massive). And then let him put every creature from the graveyard into the battlefield. I'd be in a worse spot afterwords, but it would be funny
@@longobardilounge8238 i present you... vedalken orrery. although it's probably worth half your deck with current price spikes. :/ you may be able to substitute it for some combination of cards like yeva+painter if you helm your rats with jarad (also throwing poisonous rats at opponents faces is funny).
To any honest player that returns cards to it's owner, you are the real MVP. I've met many people on both sides of thievery and honesty. Thank you to all who are honest and respectful to your fellow player(s)
Something my friend and I have been loving is throwing everyone's decks in the middle of the table and rolling dice to choose which decks get played and by who. The randomized nature of deck selection creates a ton of fun even when one deck is disproportionately powerful than the others.
The problem with this is when you have players at the table who get annoyed and irritated over slower-paced games (since learning how to play somebody else's deck takes a while), or if you have the kind of irritating player that won't shut up about making unwelcome "I am better at playing your deck than you are" comments. My close friend group has both of these kinds of players, so we quickly scrapped it after a couple of tries. It's a fun idea when your playgroup doesn't have people like that, though.
At my LGS, we have the phrase 'how spiky?' for what level of deck we're using. every game starts off with us talking about whether we should use very spiky, kind of spiky, or not at all spiky decks. 'Spiky' is less about how good the deck is, and more about how harsh it is. Stax, Slivers, Death and taxes, are all spiky types regardless of how viable they are for victory. Meanwhile, decks like superfriends and landfall are usually considered not spiky at all, even if they can sweep the game. Spiky is more about the experience of actually playing, and not how likely a deck is to win. The only time we don't do that is in the dedicated competitive commander games, but those are always the same 4-5 guys because nobody else wants to play that high level. I'm gonna miss the place, my first Magic games were there, I met some of my best friends there, and Now it's shut down for good because of Covid.
Power levels, "tiers," all nonsensical. I agree there. Play length is harder to peg though... 1. You can have a string of proactive lists at a cEDH table and the game will still last a solid 30-45 minutes. If folk have other commitments, they can check out when needed: if it's with "strangers online," I feel zero commitment to stay with the group if something comes up. 2. You've said this, but there just needs to be a dialogue beforehand as to what people are bringing to the table. I still socialize with my competitive group, but there's an understanding that everyone's "thing" will be efficient and meant to win on the spot. I know you're not intending to say competitive players don't also socialize, but someone may misconstrue that. I like your changing of "casual" to "social" here, but it's a bit confusing (8:05). 3. My own group generally asks one another what we'll be playing to have a *balanced* pod, but that's about it. I'd hate to discourage anyone from playing what they enjoy. Haha, "I'm just tired" is an interesting way to tell someone you're sore of their Jokulhaups list. 4. Pod balance! Nice breakdown. 5. "PGD"!? I've never asked how losing has felt, but most of my group have the expectation that there's ultimately meant to be a winner each time we sit down, haha. We usually alternate lists purely for diversities sake. Makes it more enjoyable for everyone. Overall, excellent discussion! Commander has such a diverse and expanding player base now. Simply "being good" to one another is the only other *golden rule* I'd try to encourage others to maintain when playing with new and old groups alike. Be well and thanks for the discussion!
Nice to see you arround briging another point of view, makes the community feel more united which is sometimes hard with all the casual vs competitive nonesense
While people often talk about rule 0, I always had trouble discussing things with my friends, mostly because I simply don't know where to start. This video gave me some great pointers, so I look forward to using them when we manage to sit down together again!
i know everyone knows this, but the way Prof talks to his viewers/followers as whole people he cares about... what a good person. What a good use of a platform. Sidenote: I just got teary during a paid promo for a hairloss product.
i put Korlash in my Narfi Snow/Zombie Army deck , just because he is cool af and the art of the card soo insane (not that good in the deck, but oh well)
Mana drained a friends Narset during one game. That's what sparked our group discussion. I reduced the number of crazy counter spells, and friend plays fewer decks that cast multiple cards for almost free. The group is working on our own sort if banned list and it grouping decks into loose tiers so that the table can play on a roughly even level. Other than that, we play rotating games online where we choose commanders for another person and build decks within a certain budget. Those are usually really fun!
I am still a very new player of mtg. I can say, with 100% certainty, that I have grown so much as a player due to my experienced group members teaching me from my own mistakes. They never make me feel stupid or unworthy of my space at the table. THIS IS WHAT MAGIC SHOULD ALWAYS BE! Thanks, prof!!!
Here in my city in Brazil we have some competition were we limit our power level by limiting the cost of cards. We have one called EDH50 where we limit the maximum cost of each card to be R$50,00 (about 10USD) and we have a local table of administrators who make some custom bans to balance the format. Generally it works, we have all kinds of decks there. Aggro, control, stax, combo, etc. I personally entered with a aggro yidris cascade just for the fun and, although I loss the most of games it was really balanced. We also have other championships who limit the power level by value, meta, and custom bam list. We now are doing a EDH tribal war, where you can only play decks with all creatures sharing at least 1 type. No combo, limited interactions, activations,draw and the minimum of 30 creatures for the game. It's really fun because some tribes focus on building and slow growing, other are just full gun ho let's beat this one first.
That is a really smart idea, I know even budget decks can be very powerful. I have a budget mono-white kemba deck that is very powerful, but now that I've been adding 10-20ish 10+ dollar cards (cards that I originally bought when they were cheap, but now the value has skyrocketed due to recent synergies), it completely outclasses my old deck. I also play one guy who are playing decks which have very little strategy but they are immediately scroll-racking/sylvan librarying/blood sealing into original alpha dual-lands into cards like Force-fields and Gaia's cradles, and you really get outvalued fast and start to see why those cards are so expensive.
Eyyyy irmão brasileiro jogando Magic sempre é legal Our playgroup have a R$ 250,00 rule (50usd) to all our decks. Those are really powerful and can do a ton of fun interactions. And since they are just a bit expensive, we can buy one or two of those a year, and play tons during vacation.
"It's Time to Move on From Commander Power Levels" I agree. I used them a little, and quickly figured out they're almost useless. I know I have or had decks that I'd argue were 6's or 7's but others think they're much higher. Prof. hit the nail on the head with this statement and its explanation.
This is great and all, but when you sit at the table with someone who only has fun when no one gets in his way or stops what he wants to do, no amount of questions in this vein will be helpful.
I definitely know one of those types from my lgs. After 3 attempts at civilized games and them failing to be civil I just opted not to play in pods involving them.
I have 2 decks thats let people play however they want. One I call my island deck and I win by replicating an artifact land after you can't attack me or target anything. If they have an enchantment sweeper I lose. The other is group hug that regularly wins with Acidic Soil and Rakdos charm. I generously provide creatures through out the game and give copious ramp.
I was told that my BR goblin deck which hadn't lost a game in mid that it was too weak for mid because "not enough ramp". Yeah my goblin deck which tops out at 6 and has an avg cmc of 2.9 needs more then 5 mana rocks to work... sure seems 100% legit and reasonable /s
@@robmitchell3039 Yep that tracks goblins dnt need to ramp when everyone is tiny and Skirky P is there putting in work. Also Dockside is a good magic card I hear.
@@saturnianlotus8343 I think a good bit of the whining abt deck power lvl is that ppl dnt know what a 10 is because most of them haven't seen a game of cedh much less played one. Ive had the Auntie deck I mentioned called a cedh deck and turns out they didn't actually know what a cedh deck is. Yes every cedh deck has fast mana but looking at a deck and calling a 10 because it has a mana crypt is just stupid.
Honestly I chalk this up to toxic Casuals. Ironically I very rarely see fully teched out competitive commander decks... But I see alot of complaining coming from people with Atog Tribal about supposed said people.
@@NecroAsphyxia actually, when playing with randoms at card shops, I only ever saw toxic competitive players, while casual players were more than willing to be a lot more cordial. I remember my first time playing commander at a game store. and I didn't use a pre-con for my first deck, I built mine. I wanted to make a mono blue artifact deck cause I like blue and artifacts, and I made my commander Urza Lord High Artificer cause I like the story of Urza. A player in our group, even before playing singled me out and said "oh, your a newbie playing Urza? Must be a net deck with a Winter Orb." Note; at the time I had no idea what he was talking about cause I didn't know what Winter Orb was. He creamed me within like 5 turns with some mono red competitive burn deck, but then lost himself to someone's gate deck soon after. Moral of the story, toxicity sucks in general. Casual or competitive be damned.
I would call it more a "barrier of entry to take seriously" than a "problem". Though that might sound like it's splitting hairs, consider the Session 0 in D&D. It's a lot of the same kind of social negotiating before we dive into this thing together, and even though it's extra work, it can be well worth it if you build a really strong playgroup. There is no social hobby or club that doesn't seriously benefit from establishing expectations upfront.
TBH in my experience even in mid people in my playgroup and myself often get curbstomped by other players who literally play High Power without Mana Crypt. I played a game the other day on Mid and this one dude literally just swapped out his crypt for farseek, but left in literally every tutor, mana vault and his free counterspells...
There’s a couple of people at my LGS who sadly have no idea how to have these conversations and somewhat ironically they’re veteran players who’ve been playing for years and years.
I love your take on this. It is an important discussion to have, especially when playing with new people. Just being self aware and truthful about what everyones' deck does is much needed, and a way better standard of going about it than arbitrary, subjective numbers. Thank you Prof!
I think the power level scale for Commander decks is not completely off. But I agree, the players should discuss what kind of game they want to play. Player 1: I like to have fun, enjoy the cards and play more thematic decks. So longer games are better. Player 2: I just want to win, I don't care how cards look and what deck I play, I just want to win. The faster the game is over the better! I can't wait to be the winner. Player 3: I like to play aggressive strategies. I want to bash and embarrass other players especially those that play slower decks and balanced cards. Player 4: I like to play broken cards and combos. I don't care what the other players do and feel as long as my combos go off before other players'. Player 5: I like to play quirky decks. My decks might be weaker but I play unusual cards and cause chaos. Player 6: I like to play Stax, destroying and hindering the game as much as possible. The less fun the other players have, the more fun I have. Good talk. Let's shuffle ...
"Are we playing to win or to socialize?" I like this better than "are we playing casually?" for the same reasons asking "what power level are we playing?" is a weak question. Everyone has a different idea of "casual." But, asking this question largely comes down to a question of winning or socializing.
exactly, for me casually would mean my $800 jhoira storm deck instead of my fully stacked cedh kess deck though to that new player in the shop my jhoira deck would look sweaty until they learned the depths of the format
Dude. Oh my god. It's like you were in my head. 57 seconds in and I hear power level is subjective, which is exactly what I was talking about with a group I play with on discord literally yesterday. Thank you do much for this video. I'm sharing this with everyone.
When I play with friends online through our lgs streams, our pre-game talk is introducing our commanders and then describing what we plan to with them for the game (eg. "I'm playing Nicol Bolas, the Ravager [explain the card for the stream] and this deck is him and themed around his Eternal army."). This gives everyone a good idea on how I will be playing the deck, how strong it is and what my chances of winning are like. If we ever talk power levels its usually during the game to make conversation.
Great advice! The only caveat I would add is that this conversation is best for people who have multiple decks and have the luxury to switch decks based on the needs of the table. For people who just have 1 deck it might be more efficient to just talk about the deck they have and see if everyone is okay with it.
This is an incredibly interesting take on power level and game night preparation, I’d love to see other magic content creators address this new way of thinking.
One of the only TH-cam channels I enjoy sitting through the TH-camr sponsor placement. You are always incredible caring and you genuinely back your sponsors. You didn’t have to take the extra mile with your bit on self-esteem and individual beauty but it was very thoughtful. Thanks for doing what you do and being a positive light in the TH-cam/magic community.
This is why I like playing Cedh, there is no power level misinterpretation. In my playgroup (for non Cedh), most edh decks are considered fine as long as there is no mass land destruction or 2 card win the game combo's.
Exactly. You have tiers of decks and you have budget, mostly bugetless and fully bugetless decks, but as it's multiplayer, you're only very slightly less dangerous than your competitors. You might be a turn slower, but frequently this means somebody else just wasted everyone else's interaction. One of the best players in our group is a diehard Alesha player. It's not a tier 1 deck by any stretch. It's missing a lot of the best fast mana and fixing but the guy knows his deck and most of our decks and he knows just how to tune and play it to be a proper menace.
My play group plays to have fun, and to improve as a magic playerd. Even when we are against bad matchups, we try to uses this opportunities to see what our deck are missing (removal, ramp, protection, card draw) that way we actually have fun, discuss and learn and even feeling great when you pull an impossible victory.
@@MechaNoodle it’s not even jank it just doesn’t deal in the same degen nonsense that permeates the format. Im a blood pod schmuck so screwing those guys is a treat
I guess my table is pretty cutthroat. We're playing Kaalia the Vast, Runo Stromkirk, Locust God, Athreos God of Passage, and Reyav. If anyone one of us gets going it's GG, so we're hitting the removal and boardwipes hard and fast every game. I never realized until now we were playing at a level uncomfortable for some people. I just figured cEDH was people who played 1v1 and since we have a 4-5 person FFA we aren't playing competitively. We just added a new player to our group who is playing Queen Kayla and he seems to be finding his pace. He just learned MTG this month so we go a little easier on him while we focus on eliminating each other.
There's an even bigger fundamental miscommunication with Commander.. "Casual Play" The problem with Commander is that it is seen as "the casual format" but this is insane to me because ANY format can be casual. When I say "casual standard" or "casual modern" people laugh. People genuinely treat this like it's impossible. But if someone makes an overpowered commander deck.. "no no thats not Commander.. that cEDH". THIS IS BACKWARDS!! No one calls modern, "cModern" but when you ask them to play they immediate respond with "I don't have fetch lands" or I don't play pro. This is insane to me! The reason it's so hard to critique Commander and why these power level discussions are even necessary is because people fundamentally misunderstand what casual means. There is literally nothing about Commander that fundamentally makes it the one and only casual format. Please Professor.. Please encourage other people to play casually in other paper formats. It won't solve the power level problem but it will expand it into a wider understanding that will benefit all of Magic.
There's a fundamental misunderstanding with how those other formats work: if you provide incentives for winning, you will invariably and inevitably push people towards tuning their decks to win. THAT is why Standard, Modern, and other constructed formats are seen as competitive-by-default: WotC subsidizes prizes for sanctioned tournaments in those formats, and the pursuit of those prizes causes people to refine their decks, in turn purchasing product.
@@PuppetSoul You're doing exactly what I'm describing. I'm talking about playing other formats casually and you're telling me that be done casually because of tournaments. The fact that you're jumping immediately to tournaments and sanctioned events is exactly the problem that I'm trying to point out.
@@VagabondTE because you don't understand why those formats exist. Standard doesn't exist because a bunch of casual players got together and set an arbitrary limit for a rotating pool. It exists because WotC said, "We'll pay you to win in this format we made." This is where the concept of "going infinite" comes from: that you win enough purse/product to not have to pay out of pocket to play in your desired prizing format. So if you want to have Commander immediately shift to competitive tryharding, offer a Collector's booster to the winner of each pod, and watch how fast the social contract gets torn asunder in favor of winning, and "politicking" becomes a phrase for forming pre-tournament alliances. You get what you incentivize: most constructed formats have fame-and-fortune incentives as their foundation. Commander doesn't.
@@PuppetSoul When you play pro it probably seems like that's all there is, but the vast.. VAST majority of Magic the Gathering players have never even been to a tournament. I've play standard for over a decade and I don't even know a pro player. So no, it does not exist solely for competitive scene. Only a few years ago people didn't even know what Commander was. You honestly think Magic the Gathering has been purely competitive for 40 years? And EVEN IF that was the case.. that only applies to standard. Pauper just barely got sanctioned before covid hit so don't pretend like it has a competitive scene. Not to mention that dozens of other formats you're not going to mention because they don't support your argument. Saying that Commander is the only casual format is absurd.
I got my actual start with Magic (really playing, not agglomerating every card I owned into a 200 thick pile and hardly knowing the rules) at a weekly community center meet-up group. They played Standard, including multiplayer formats, until Modern came into being, at which point we switched to that. It wasn't really FNM, so there was no official tournament tracking - sometimes the host provided prizes for winning, but as time went on more games were held just for play's sake alone. The host endeavored to create an environment where the many young players coming in didn't feel out of their depth, but there was also room for players to improve themselves and their decks over time. It worked out really well, and I though I left the region long ago I preferred that multiplayer Standard and Modern experience to EDH (which the group also, eventually, picked up in my final years there). It's sort of insane to me that EDH, which has a card pool roughly equivalent to Legacy, is so often billed as THE "casual" format. People want to win in general; some people more, some people less, a few not at all, but at its core Magic is not a cooperative game. Thus, the difference between the power floor and ceiling with a card pool as huge as EDH's is going to cause massive imbalances even if no one is treating it like tournament play. Yes, @PuppetSoul, Standard and Modern chiefly exist to produce a certain sort of competitive metagame, but they also supply a basis for a slimmed down card pool that can work equally well in setting expectations for casual play. Rather than trying to say "anything goes :)" (like the college group I played in after the one I talked about above) and then have someone bring in... well, what happens when an EDH pod has three people with precons and one person with a $4000 optimized deck, or vice versa.
I love this. Most people in my play group trend toward doing a lot of this naturally but there are one or two people who don't and it feels awkward to push them towards it. Normalising this with our play group will help :)
I love this. Conversations about desires and intentions will always be more effective than arbitrary rating systems! Hopefully more players take this guidance to heart, Prof. Thank you!
Semi agree with this. My group don't talk about length or grade level. We straight up say no combo, no fast mana, no tutors, no MLD, no mass discard, no insta-loopy effects. While people are fazed when they hear this, they seem to underestimate the size of the card pool. There's so many other cards out there.
You're so right about communication Prof, so many posts on facebook chat groups are discussing power levels and experiences with their playgroup and I realised every reply I gave said that they need to be more open in discussing things with their playgroup. I pet peeve of mine is when combo players aren't open about their combos and pieces. Just tell me what your wincon is, it's not fun for anyone if you just pretend to be a weak deck and then win out of nowhere turn 4. There should be a period before the game starts where everyone has a chat about what their decks does and then everyone knows what they're getting themselves into!
I was first introduced to magic by an old high school friend. We played a few games and I couldn't defend myself against her angels deck. I thought playing counter magic and mill were the smartest ways to play since then I didn't have to deal with the fliers at all. I misunderstood the clear frustration on my friend's face since these were all cards in the game. Thank you for your insights and explanations. They've genuinely helped me so much in my journey as a Magic player. As a rule of thumb for myself, I now run a maximum of 1 counterspell in my commander decks and 30% of all ramp and card draw in my decks are group hug effects so that EVERYONE gets a chance to play.
This is actually perfect. I decided to get into Commander because I really loved the idea of a deck full of flavour. I wanted to do a tribal Gruul deck full of satyrs, nothing fancy. But it got really tiresome when all I found were 200 IQ combo decks where I was dead at round 3 at the most with no time to enjoy at all.
When Commander tips are about being a good person and being considerate of others. I love videos about this, a nice reminder about the core of the game. It's the thing we do to have fun
Some absolutely solid advice, I was extremely lucky with my old group. W all enjoyed competitive games, we all had some pretty intense decks but game time swung WILDLY. Anywhere from a couple turns because the goblin tribal got its tokens out early to multiple hours when we combined two-headed giant and two control players ended up on the same team.
Two years ago I went to my LGS with a friend to find a game or two of EDH. First guy we talk to says he'd love to play a casual game with us, then proceeds to take out his Niv-Mizzet Reborn deck that slaps both our decks about with one hand tied behind its back. Never been that bent out of shape over MTG, never even considered playing with that guy again, and my friend and I still regularly reference the experience. Two. Years. Ago.
love this, and to be honest, yes, is really subjective, you have to talk with your playgroup and all that, BUT... we al can agree that an explosive beginning like fetch, reserve dual lands, expensive mana rocks, to dockside, to combo in 3 turns is not a 6 power level deck, like the command zone, for example, says about their decks
I don't know that the "play to win" vs "play to socialize" discussion is as straightforward as that. I ALWAYS play to socialize, but that doesn't mean I'm not also trying to win. That's the object of the game, after all. I want to do my cool things and, as a result, WIN. But it's not like that's the SOLE reason I'm there. 'Play to win' doesn't JUST mean being cutthroat and assembling combos. This may just be a problem of how it's worded, but this section did feel a little off to me. I try to play smart, and do powerful things, and my opponent's regularly do the same. We always try to win, but we're also socializing and just there to have fun. I don't think these are things that need to be at odds in any way.
I feel like we need the Professor's video as a standardized questionnaire that Wizards releases. Why Wizards? Because if the mothership releases it, people will think it's official and will be "forced" to use it.
I'd imagine the questionnaire would ask things like: Do you want to win? How many turns would you ideally want to play? If you don't win, what would make you happy? How much money does your deck cost? Do you have tutors? How many cards can you draw in a game? What type of deck/archetype are you playing? How many Rares/Mythics does your deck have? Have any/How many cards in your deck been Banned in other formats? What types of decks/archetypes do you want to play against? What types of decks/archetypes do you NOT want to play against?
These questions are really useful for any gathering of Magic: The Gathering. When I was in college, I went to the first meeting of the sci-fi club which included some MTG players. Four of us, all freshmen, decided to play a 4-way game of Magic. All three of them broke out their best, most oppressive decks right from the start and it was a miserable game. Then, the guy across from me took out a new deck and said, "I'll beat you with my Sliver deck." I never went back to the club, which I still regret, because I wanted a social game to make new friends. I wish I had asked Professor's second question before playing. I might have made good friends that day and stayed with the club. I really regret never going back.
The best advice I've heard (maybe here, but I think from Vince) is "Don't play to win when building your deck." Obviously, when you sit down, you try to win. But don't make that the priority of (EDH) deck-building. There are many other formats where you can brew to win; Commander is the one that's supposed to be different. At least, it is from where I sit.
I went to a new locals yesterday and had never played in a commander Pod with strangers before. I got absolutely blown out and felt pretty bad about it. It's nice to see a video like this the day after, I'll definitely be implementing these tips next time I go. I wasn't being very communicative before matches cause I didnt know anyone. Thanks for the tips!
So legitimate question, when you answer this question do you quantify it with “with a perfect hand I can win turn 2-3 but I need all the cards in hand”. Like I can’t pull it off every time but it can happen. I never know how to answer that question.
If you goldfish at all you should be able to answer this question. If you can't, you gotta learn more about your deck. Saying you don't know is just lazy. I own 15 commander decks. Most are turn 10, a couple are turn 6, the most casual ones are turn 14/15. This totally out of the top of my head
I also think this kind of begs the question that people built decks to play solitaire magic, and misses a lot of bigger problems. Some decks won't win quickly, but they'll build nearly insurmountable amounts of advantage that their chances of winning increases more and more. Some decks can win quickly, but if people play some simple interaction, they're easy to stop. And of course it's also a difficult question to answer for new decks without some experience.
My friends and I came up with a pretty consistant way of telling how powerful a commander deck is: What's your deck's gameplan? How fast does your deck accomplish its gameplan? How easy is your deck's gameplan to interrupt? How fast does your deck win once it accomplished its gameplan/setup? A good example is my friend's mono red Zada combo deck: Its gameplan is to play a couple of tokens, then Zada and start the OTK combo. (very strong) The combo can start as soon as turn 2 with the right cards, but usually turn 4 or 5. (strong - very strong) Killing Zada or countering one of the important spells the combo needs to start pretty much loses him the game. (very weak) His deck usually wins when he plays Zada and it stays on the board, but sometimes he starts the combo, goes through half his deck but fails to get the next card to continue the combo. (strong-very strong) His deck is definitively strong, probably stronger than most other decks in our play group but gets hard countered by any somewhat controlly/reactive deck. Its not cEDH level, but it's very close imo. So if we say 9/10 and 10/10 is cEDH level, his deck is definitively an 8/10.
I hate that this is a thing. Imagine complaining in a constructed format that your opponents deck is too strong. A proper ban list would solve all of this.
Do you mind explaining what you mean by a "proper ban list". Other formats ban cards that show overwhelming force in tournaments and such but I'm not sure you could do the same with EDH since there isn't really an overarching meta for it.
"Sometimes though, it's just the end of the week, and everyone's tired." - This. I hope people appreciate that for a lot of people, playing edh is a release from stress, and a way to have fun and enjoy socializing without worrying about office politics. Table politics are just fine! Personally, the fun I have is very much tied to knowing that other people at the table are having fun, and sharing joy and some laughs. Casual or cedh, it doesn't matter, as long as this is communicated, and people are - at the least - cordial. Someone who is just salty - about losing, about winning, about table politics, a sore winner, or a poor sport with every interaction - they are simply a brat nobody should have to deal with.
Very good point you make my fellow professor! I’m a magic player and adjunct at Belmont University, and I have been following you for years. This is one of the best points I’ve heard from ANY commander content: “it’s about the games, not the decks” -The Professor
My pod definitely prefers multiple fast games of MTG and we had a couple of level setting discussions about it. My friend's Mogis deck certainly sets the game to a 10 turn clock. It also encourages the players of go big creature decks to get more efficient ramp as they need to get their engines up and running quickly. I have 10 different decks of varying power between cEDH Urza Powered Scepter (that I usually don't run unless asked to) and a coinflip based Zndersplnt and Okaun deck, so I get to fine tune the experience for others in the pod. Level setting before shuffling up is definitely the best way to do it. Explain the deck, what it does and what to look for and there will be less "feel bads" all around. Or find yourself a good group that doesn't care what you play in moderation, be it stax, MLD and others.
Commander as a game is obsessed with people "getting upset". It's a game. So you get blown out. Who cares? Move on, discuss if you want to play a different kind of game next or just don't play. Nobody should be getting upset. It is a game. We entertain far too much toxicity by entertaining the idea that people should be losing their temper during games. (Lots of good advice in the video though)
While I get what you mean, I have a skullbriar deck for example. If I'm playing in a nice way, I'll dish or the damage equallyish and let people play their deck. But if I wanted to play optimal, I'd target the deck that might be best against me. I can at least knock out one player within a few turns if I focus on one person. This means I knock out the same person each time within a few turns. Not very fun for them
@@supernoodles908 Sorry, I misread your post so I deleted mine to rewrite it. I agree that if you always target the same player game after game, that is an example of something that is annoying and yep, it's likely going to get changed by the group. However, there's really no need for anger while that is happening.
@@apjapki Yeah no completely disagree. I hate the mindset if you get mad you shouldn't play. Nah that's actually dumb. Sometimes you could be playing with a bad group, there could be any number of valid reasons to get upset at something. At the end of the day though if you find yourself getting angry too often with your group, perhaps it's time to find better friends.
@@darklordrowan6152 But why are you getting mad? Are people cheating? Are they being rude to you? What other hobby will regularly say, "Something abour our hobby is that players get upset all the time and we take that for granted"? Board Games don't! Let's be clear. You don't have to like it but you not liking it is not the other person's fault if they are just playing the game. You may need to talk to improve the game. You don't have a passport to demonstrate your anger.
I like the idea of power tiers (low-, medium- and high power), I've been using it more and more. High power being probably my friend's Najeela deck and my Neheb, the Eternal deck. they can go off earlier than most other decks in my group
Honestly love this video, a decks power level does not dictate how a player uses the deck or who said player is playing against. For example most people would consider my decks around 7 or 8 but i tend to play like if mine are 6 or 5 because my friends and others typically arr using decks around 6 and there are more there for socializing and hanging out and wining is usually an afterthought unless the game has gone on to long. I also tend to help out others, like if they are going to remove something that is scary but pointless in the long run, i would instead help them on how to prioritize threats and show them what they should use that removal on instead.
I have a deck that consistently removes the graveyard from the game as a whole. That is what it does. There is seldom a pod where it won't hose a deck due to the rampant graveyard value decks. Given this, your advice means my deck probably shouldn't ever play against a large swath of decks. While in some cases I would agree, I would also stipulate that if a deck is weak to something (e.g. graveyard removal) then those decks need to have answers to cards that unilaterally hose them.
I'd suggest playing against things you think you hate but haven't played against it at least once. My mate made an infect commander deck, I hate infect. But I played against it anyway and it turns out I really like his deck, there's interesting turns to watch and interact with.
My own playgroup has been together long enough to understand how each player builds decks. Whenever we come to the table with a new brew, we always follow the game with something like "how did you guys feel about that deck?" We also developed our own pointing system to help keep things balanced and also to reinforce better creativity.
Head to keeps.com/tolarian to get 50% off your first order of hair loss treatment.
Thanks to Keeps for sponsoring this video!
I get it. “Head” over. as in “Head of hair”
I'm wondering if the Keeps Ad is an indicator that we(your audience) are getting older ;)
Keeps? I mulliganed my hair to down to 1.
Thank you for presenting this in a body-positive way
Sorry prof but cinematography is a lot more subjective than power level. This years hot new summer block busters don’t have a mana crypt in 10 out of the 10 decks they brought.
TL;DR: in a healthy and functional relationship, communication is key.
Fantastic 👏 👏 👏 summary
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Well it's a good thing I'm neither healthy nor functional :D
Great video. Many of these principles about having a conversation about goals and a debrief to have the best shared experience as possible can also be applied to other group games like DnD!
Never thought I'd see one of my fav singer comment on one of my fav card game channel
Holy cow it's JoYo!
Holy shit, never knew you were into MTG, or DnD for that matter.
Can we have a cover song about this topic?
Something else about the End of Game debrief: Talk about how fuckin' COOL other people's decks were. "Dude that combo is dirty, I love it." "I can't believe you managed to out-value me!" "That gimmick works better than it has any right to."
I personally give harsh truths.
Yes! Additionally you can help suggest cards for a deck if it did not work for someone
How about: "That card/combo is overpowered, it's no fun to play against that."
@@joeferreti9442 thats a you problem, fun is subjective
"Hey, that's the same combo that everyone on Magic Online is using, with Thassa's Oracle and decking yourself. You knew I was playing Mono-Red and you still went for it regardless, I can respect that."
I will always remember one of the most fun pods I've played was one in which one of my friends sat down and said "alright everyone get out your weakest deck" it ended up being one of the most fun, actually competitive games I've played to this day.
Had this same thing last week, boy has this been a fun game!
Pauper cube always surprises my friends at how competitive the games are. Rarity doesn't necessarily always speak to power level with some interactions but it is assumed that the cards are weaker by default so surprises are abound.
A weak deck doesnt equal a not fun deck
I had the opposite problem (well, sort of, it made for a fun story).
Playing EDH with my friend, decide to try out my Kamigawa block Iname as One deck which I assume is garbo but it's my first run with it.
Turn four I drop Infernal Kirin. Next turn I play a 5 drop, and they reveal like four or five 5 drops and scoop :P.
my opinion is that competitive does not mean playing cedh but rather with decks matched in power level.
"weakest" unfortunately is not a good descriptor as someones weakest deck might still be head and shoulders above someones else weakest deck. eg my weakest deck would be phenax that i need to try very very hard to win any games with but it will still mash precons to a pulp.
prof. also mentioned voltrons. those decks power cannot be judged in vacuum as they will lose hard to decks using grave pact or pilow forts but will stomp value decks.
it's just that short discussion before game is always better than using subjective descriptors.
"Fun is not a zero sum game."
Absolutely my favorite line from the whole script. Excellent advice Prof. Thanks for this video.
Me, playing control: press x to doubt
Except that sometimes my fun comes at the expense of others.
*laughs in Tinybones
But it’s wrong fun is the sum of 1
"Power levels are bullshit!" -Vageta from DBZA
""MTG is a perfectly balanced game"" 😂
Fine comment from Vageta about Mogic: the Gathering :P
I thought that was DBZA Tien rather than DBZA Vegeta.
@@GanicoGSx the first time
it is said is from Vageta when Krillin and him are talking about how Piccolo is fighting toe to toe with Freaza's second form.
Vageta: "Either Freaza hit me harder then I thought..."
Krillin: "Or?"
Vageta: "Or power levels are bullshit!"
Lol
@@aaronbennett3966 Oh, okay.
Didn’t know I needed Prof telling me I’m super-sexy
This man is a treasure
I certainly smiled
You know you're getting old when the youtubers for your favorite game are selling hair loss products.
Maybe you're not getting old. The GAME is getting older. Not many games last 27 years.
MTG is old.
dick pills also with the pro wrestling podcasts haha
@@jordangroblewsky2087 29?
@@sosukelele my comment was from over a year ago.
This reminds me of Dan Savage when discussing when two potentially intimate partners meet and that they should ask "Hey what kind of stuff are you into?"
hahahaha, not far from it
A Dan Savage reference on a Magic video?
Yup I'm in the right community 😁
@@TolarianCommunityCollege In many ways, Magic is basically sex.
@@jameshayes-barber9340 Indeed. One usually does it on a table, and you always feel deep shame when you finish.
Always wash your hands after touching your cards.
@@Sombres touching other player cards without consent is very rude. :D
I know it seems silly, but as someone who struggles with how I feel about myself due to balding, I really appreciate how you discussed the topic during your ad.
nah, it's super legit to want people to treat you normally regardless of your appearance!
open and honest communication is the key to literally all relationships, be they romantic, professional, platonic, or anything else, and this is no exception
hecking great video as always
"fun is not a zero-sum game" *sweats in stax*
You can have fun now. Just a little at a time.
There's a limited amount of fun to be had and I want all of it
I always play stacks when I notice a new play group doesn't have much interaction. It's my way of teaching, if you can't interact you have a hard time finding wins.
Plenty of time for everyone to get a chance to do their thing. Plenty of time.
@@darkice12321 I feel like more often than not that's just going to result in you not getting invited back, at least in the playgroups I know.
Sweet merciful, I'd love to play this on a loop for some people. It's a card game, and I spent a couple of bucks on my Commander deck, so I'd like to play with more than 3 turns.
I mean I play more magic in those 3 turns than my old battlecruiser did in 10, and I play in like playgroups, more magic in less turns is still more magic total
Honest conversation about what you want out of a game is the only catch-all solution to balanced games.
For example, I want games where I end up being the monologuing villain, threateningly eliminating one or two people before dying to hubris.
See, I just want to be an agent of chaos. One game I had a Day of Judgement in hand. The player next to me was Superfriends with a Lilianna Vess ready to ultimate. We were conspiring to clear the board (except for one of my creatures that would be massive). And then let him put every creature from the graveyard into the battlefield. I'd be in a worse spot afterwords, but it would be funny
I resemble this comment.
Sorry but no that doesnt work.
Ben Wheeler is that you?
Honestly, same.
JOKES ON YOU, I’M PLAYING A 110 DOLLAR DECK WITH *TAP LANDS*
I’M ONLY GETTING TARGETED BECAUSE OF PAST NON-COMMANDER GAMES... :(
I'll throw a blood sun into decks full of tap lands whenever the commander allows it. It's always fun to get yelled at for playing tap lands untapped.
$110?? Wow, I think my most expensive is $70
@@captainflapjax7240 I've got a 140$ deck that isn't good 😂
My relentless rats deck is over 180 bux I can never really get it goin bcuz i become a target....soon as my thrumming stone comes out im dead
@@longobardilounge8238 i present you... vedalken orrery. although it's probably worth half your deck with current price spikes. :/ you may be able to substitute it for some combination of cards like yeva+painter if you helm your rats with jarad (also throwing poisonous rats at opponents faces is funny).
To any honest player that returns cards to it's owner, you are the real MVP. I've met many people on both sides of thievery and honesty. Thank you to all who are honest and respectful to your fellow player(s)
Something my friend and I have been loving is throwing everyone's decks in the middle of the table and rolling dice to choose which decks get played and by who. The randomized nature of deck selection creates a ton of fun even when one deck is disproportionately powerful than the others.
Plus you don't mind losing so much if it's your deck that beat you!
The problem with this is when you have players at the table who get annoyed and irritated over slower-paced games (since learning how to play somebody else's deck takes a while), or if you have the kind of irritating player that won't shut up about making unwelcome "I am better at playing your deck than you are" comments.
My close friend group has both of these kinds of players, so we quickly scrapped it after a couple of tries. It's a fun idea when your playgroup doesn't have people like that, though.
At my LGS, we have the phrase 'how spiky?' for what level of deck we're using. every game starts off with us talking about whether we should use very spiky, kind of spiky, or not at all spiky decks. 'Spiky' is less about how good the deck is, and more about how harsh it is. Stax, Slivers, Death and taxes, are all spiky types regardless of how viable they are for victory. Meanwhile, decks like superfriends and landfall are usually considered not spiky at all, even if they can sweep the game. Spiky is more about the experience of actually playing, and not how likely a deck is to win. The only time we don't do that is in the dedicated competitive commander games, but those are always the same 4-5 guys because nobody else wants to play that high level. I'm gonna miss the place, my first Magic games were there, I met some of my best friends there, and Now it's shut down for good because of Covid.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Really well thought out. A great discussion tool for playgroups.
Power levels, "tiers," all nonsensical. I agree there. Play length is harder to peg though... 1. You can have a string of proactive lists at a cEDH table and the game will still last a solid 30-45 minutes. If folk have other commitments, they can check out when needed: if it's with "strangers online," I feel zero commitment to stay with the group if something comes up. 2. You've said this, but there just needs to be a dialogue beforehand as to what people are bringing to the table. I still socialize with my competitive group, but there's an understanding that everyone's "thing" will be efficient and meant to win on the spot. I know you're not intending to say competitive players don't also socialize, but someone may misconstrue that. I like your changing of "casual" to "social" here, but it's a bit confusing (8:05). 3. My own group generally asks one another what we'll be playing to have a *balanced* pod, but that's about it. I'd hate to discourage anyone from playing what they enjoy. Haha, "I'm just tired" is an interesting way to tell someone you're sore of their Jokulhaups list. 4. Pod balance! Nice breakdown. 5. "PGD"!? I've never asked how losing has felt, but most of my group have the expectation that there's ultimately meant to be a winner each time we sit down, haha. We usually alternate lists purely for diversities sake. Makes it more enjoyable for everyone. Overall, excellent discussion! Commander has such a diverse and expanding player base now. Simply "being good" to one another is the only other *golden rule* I'd try to encourage others to maintain when playing with new and old groups alike. Be well and thanks for the discussion!
Nice to see you arround briging another point of view, makes the community feel more united which is sometimes hard with all the casual vs competitive nonesense
While people often talk about rule 0, I always had trouble discussing things with my friends, mostly because I simply don't know where to start. This video gave me some great pointers, so I look forward to using them when we manage to sit down together again!
i know everyone knows this, but the way Prof talks to his viewers/followers as whole people he cares about... what a good person. What a good use of a platform.
Sidenote: I just got teary during a paid promo for a hairloss product.
As a Korlash player, the representation is appreciated.
I put him in my Dakkon Blackblade voltron deck, which I wanted to include all Blackblade-related cards in
i put Korlash in my Narfi Snow/Zombie Army deck , just because he is cool af and the art of the card soo insane (not that good in the deck, but oh well)
I got my boy korlash as a commander. By far the most entertaining deck lmfao
Sup! 🤜🤛
Mana drained a friends Narset during one game. That's what sparked our group discussion.
I reduced the number of crazy counter spells, and friend plays fewer decks that cast multiple cards for almost free.
The group is working on our own sort if banned list and it grouping decks into loose tiers so that the table can play on a roughly even level.
Other than that, we play rotating games online where we choose commanders for another person and build decks within a certain budget. Those are usually really fun!
meanwhile I just found a playgroup who are as sweaty, and wealthy, as I am and put my kess against their zur or kenrith
Thanks for callin' me super sexy, prof.
I am still a very new player of mtg. I can say, with 100% certainty, that I have grown so much as a player due to my experienced group members teaching me from my own mistakes. They never make me feel stupid or unworthy of my space at the table. THIS IS WHAT MAGIC SHOULD ALWAYS BE! Thanks, prof!!!
Here in my city in Brazil we have some competition were we limit our power level by limiting the cost of cards. We have one called EDH50 where we limit the maximum cost of each card to be R$50,00 (about 10USD) and we have a local table of administrators who make some custom bans to balance the format. Generally it works, we have all kinds of decks there. Aggro, control, stax, combo, etc. I personally entered with a aggro yidris cascade just for the fun and, although I loss the most of games it was really balanced. We also have other championships who limit the power level by value, meta, and custom bam list. We now are doing a EDH tribal war, where you can only play decks with all creatures sharing at least 1 type. No combo, limited interactions, activations,draw and the minimum of 30 creatures for the game. It's really fun because some tribes focus on building and slow growing, other are just full gun ho let's beat this one first.
That is a really smart idea, I know even budget decks can be very powerful. I have a budget mono-white kemba deck that is very powerful, but now that I've been adding 10-20ish 10+ dollar cards (cards that I originally bought when they were cheap, but now the value has skyrocketed due to recent synergies), it completely outclasses my old deck. I also play one guy who are playing decks which have very little strategy but they are immediately scroll-racking/sylvan librarying/blood sealing into original alpha dual-lands into cards like Force-fields and Gaia's cradles, and you really get outvalued fast and start to see why those cards are so expensive.
Eyyyy irmão brasileiro jogando Magic sempre é legal
Our playgroup have a R$ 250,00 rule (50usd) to all our decks. Those are really powerful and can do a ton of fun interactions. And since they are just a bit expensive, we can buy one or two of those a year, and play tons during vacation.
Great discussion. Most of the "bad feels" I've encountered have come from the feeling that you're able to do your thing
Yes! Win or lose, I just want to do something.
"It's Time to Move on From Commander Power Levels"
I agree. I used them a little, and quickly figured out they're almost useless.
I know I have or had decks that I'd argue were 6's or 7's but others think they're much higher.
Prof. hit the nail on the head with this statement and its explanation.
That's the other persons ignorance of deck potentials. Explain to them how it can be better and what would push it to a higher tier.
This is great and all, but when you sit at the table with someone who only has fun when no one gets in his way or stops what he wants to do, no amount of questions in this vein will be helpful.
I definitely know one of those types from my lgs. After 3 attempts at civilized games and them failing to be civil I just opted not to play in pods involving them.
@@matrix3nova Exactly. Just don't play with these people.
Easy, you don't sit down at that table...if you want to be polite about it, just say your decks aren't up to his level and move on.
So that person gets angry because your deck is better than his? Its not your fault you dealt with his threats.
I have 2 decks thats let people play however they want. One I call my island deck and I win by replicating an artifact land after you can't attack me or target anything. If they have an enchantment sweeper I lose. The other is group hug that regularly wins with Acidic Soil and Rakdos charm. I generously provide creatures through out the game and give copious ramp.
I haven't seen it yet but after being told Mana Crypt makes my Angel Tribal high power I think I needed this today.
I was told that my BR goblin deck which hadn't lost a game in mid that it was too weak for mid because "not enough ramp".
Yeah my goblin deck which tops out at 6 and has an avg cmc of 2.9 needs more then 5 mana rocks to work... sure seems 100% legit and reasonable /s
@@DeadBuiltLikeGoblinLackey My Krenko deck doesn't play any ramp, because I never need to tap more than 4, and it wins about half of the time.
@@robmitchell3039 Yep that tracks goblins dnt need to ramp when everyone is tiny and Skirky P is there putting in work.
Also Dockside is a good magic card I hear.
This is such a pet peeve of mine. People who think fast mana or dual lands automatically makes a deck top tier are scrubs.
@@saturnianlotus8343 I think a good bit of the whining abt deck power lvl is that ppl dnt know what a 10 is because most of them haven't seen a game of cedh much less played one.
Ive had the Auntie deck I mentioned called a cedh deck and turns out they didn't actually know what a cedh deck is.
Yes every cedh deck has fast mana but looking at a deck and calling a 10 because it has a mana crypt is just stupid.
This changes my mindset about Power Level. Totally. Great video.
The professor seems to be assuming I have more than one deck lol. I literally just built a golos good stuff deck and that's all the enjoyment I need.
Yeah man cards are expensive. Lol Who has enough disposable I come
To carry several decks for every format.
The fact that you have to have a whole town council meeting before playing EDH is such a huge problem with the format.
In large part due to how deep the format is and how it's popularity has grown.
It's much less of an issue if you have a regular playgroup. The problem mostly arises when you play randoms at a shop.
Honestly I chalk this up to toxic Casuals. Ironically I very rarely see fully teched out competitive commander decks... But I see alot of complaining coming from people with Atog Tribal about supposed said people.
@@NecroAsphyxia actually, when playing with randoms at card shops, I only ever saw toxic competitive players, while casual players were more than willing to be a lot more cordial.
I remember my first time playing commander at a game store. and I didn't use a pre-con for my first deck, I built mine. I wanted to make a mono blue artifact deck cause I like blue and artifacts, and I made my commander Urza Lord High Artificer cause I like the story of Urza.
A player in our group, even before playing singled me out and said "oh, your a newbie playing Urza? Must be a net deck with a Winter Orb." Note; at the time I had no idea what he was talking about cause I didn't know what Winter Orb was. He creamed me within like 5 turns with some mono red competitive burn deck, but then lost himself to someone's gate deck soon after.
Moral of the story, toxicity sucks in general. Casual or competitive be damned.
I would call it more a "barrier of entry to take seriously" than a "problem". Though that might sound like it's splitting hairs, consider the Session 0 in D&D. It's a lot of the same kind of social negotiating before we dive into this thing together, and even though it's extra work, it can be well worth it if you build a really strong playgroup. There is no social hobby or club that doesn't seriously benefit from establishing expectations upfront.
PlayEDH. . . is very unique. High Power is just CEDH without thassas oracle. .
That tells you a _lot_ about how good thassas oracle is in cedh
Is there any other way to win with 3 mana.
TBH in my experience even in mid people in my playgroup and myself often get curbstomped by other players who literally play High Power without Mana Crypt. I played a game the other day on Mid and this one dude literally just swapped out his crypt for farseek, but left in literally every tutor, mana vault and his free counterspells...
And I have a CEDH krrik deck rated for mid...
@@humpiestcandy4419 lol my cEDH Korvold deck got rated for high. Not my fault it’s been stomping in high.
There’s a couple of people at my LGS who sadly have no idea how to have these conversations and somewhat ironically they’re veteran players who’ve been playing for years and years.
I love your take on this. It is an important discussion to have, especially when playing with new people. Just being self aware and truthful about what everyones' deck does is much needed, and a way better standard of going about it than arbitrary, subjective numbers. Thank you Prof!
I think the power level scale for Commander decks is not completely off. But I agree, the players should discuss what kind of game they want to play.
Player 1: I like to have fun, enjoy the cards and play more thematic decks. So longer games are better.
Player 2: I just want to win, I don't care how cards look and what deck I play, I just want to win. The faster the game is over the better! I can't wait to be the winner.
Player 3: I like to play aggressive strategies. I want to bash and embarrass other players especially those that play slower decks and balanced cards.
Player 4: I like to play broken cards and combos. I don't care what the other players do and feel as long as my combos go off before other players'.
Player 5: I like to play quirky decks. My decks might be weaker but I play unusual cards and cause chaos.
Player 6: I like to play Stax, destroying and hindering the game as much as possible. The less fun the other players have, the more fun I have.
Good talk. Let's shuffle ...
I've never seen a more wholesome ad before
Last time I was this early, it was 2019 and wotc didn't have 3 different boxes per set
They still don’t?
@@kurtishendrix Draft Booster Box, Set Booster box, Collectors Booster Box.
@@Gr4ntdalf ah I see, thought he meant like how they used to do 3 expansions or whatever per set.
"Are we playing to win or to socialize?"
I like this better than "are we playing casually?" for the same reasons asking "what power level are we playing?" is a weak question. Everyone has a different idea of "casual." But, asking this question largely comes down to a question of winning or socializing.
exactly, for me casually would mean my $800 jhoira storm deck instead of my fully stacked cedh kess deck
though to that new player in the shop my jhoira deck would look sweaty until they learned the depths of the format
Dude. Oh my god. It's like you were in my head. 57 seconds in and I hear power level is subjective, which is exactly what I was talking about with a group I play with on discord literally yesterday. Thank you do much for this video. I'm sharing this with everyone.
Playing edh is like dancing. Doing it with strangers is awkward at first, but you quickly adjust to each other and it gets more fun.
nice!!!!
When I play with friends online through our lgs streams, our pre-game talk is introducing our commanders and then describing what we plan to with them for the game (eg. "I'm playing Nicol Bolas, the Ravager [explain the card for the stream] and this deck is him and themed around his Eternal army."). This gives everyone a good idea on how I will be playing the deck, how strong it is and what my chances of winning are like. If we ever talk power levels its usually during the game to make conversation.
7:52 "Allowing players to, quote unquote, 'Do their thing.'"
AKA let me get my shit in
Great advice! The only caveat I would add is that this conversation is best for people who have multiple decks and have the luxury to switch decks based on the needs of the table. For people who just have 1 deck it might be more efficient to just talk about the deck they have and see if everyone is okay with it.
This is an incredibly interesting take on power level and game night preparation, I’d love to see other magic content creators address this new way of thinking.
One of the only TH-cam channels I enjoy sitting through the TH-camr sponsor placement. You are always incredible caring and you genuinely back your sponsors. You didn’t have to take the extra mile with your bit on self-esteem and individual beauty but it was very thoughtful. Thanks for doing what you do and being a positive light in the TH-cam/magic community.
This is why I like playing Cedh, there is no power level misinterpretation.
In my playgroup (for non Cedh), most edh decks are considered fine as long as there is no mass land destruction or 2 card win the game combo's.
Mine group. Is everything had to have a point and a way win not just slow game down so we play a 3 hour game.
Exactly. You have tiers of decks and you have budget, mostly bugetless and fully bugetless decks, but as it's multiplayer, you're only very slightly less dangerous than your competitors. You might be a turn slower, but frequently this means somebody else just wasted everyone else's interaction.
One of the best players in our group is a diehard Alesha player. It's not a tier 1 deck by any stretch. It's missing a lot of the best fast mana and fixing but the guy knows his deck and most of our decks and he knows just how to tune and play it to be a proper menace.
My play group plays to have fun, and to improve as a magic playerd.
Even when we are against bad matchups, we try to uses this opportunities to see what our deck are missing (removal, ramp, protection, card draw) that way we actually have fun, discuss and learn and even feeling great when you pull an impossible victory.
"It's subjective" until someone runs into Tymna and Thrasios XD
From a cEDH player,I can100% agree, double T is such a strong combination.
@@MechaNoodle aka top tier period
Everybody laughs till bde Winota staxx rofl stomps a table by virtue of existiting
@@deadeye7924 I love playing the "jank" of cEDH, smashing faces with Grand Warlord Radha is fun
@@MechaNoodle it’s not even jank it just doesn’t deal in the same degen nonsense that permeates the format. Im a blood pod schmuck so screwing those guys is a treat
I guess my table is pretty cutthroat. We're playing Kaalia the Vast, Runo Stromkirk, Locust God, Athreos God of Passage, and Reyav. If anyone one of us gets going it's GG, so we're hitting the removal and boardwipes hard and fast every game. I never realized until now we were playing at a level uncomfortable for some people. I just figured cEDH was people who played 1v1 and since we have a 4-5 person FFA we aren't playing competitively. We just added a new player to our group who is playing Queen Kayla and he seems to be finding his pace. He just learned MTG this month so we go a little easier on him while we focus on eliminating each other.
There's an even bigger fundamental miscommunication with Commander.. "Casual Play" The problem with Commander is that it is seen as "the casual format" but this is insane to me because ANY format can be casual.
When I say "casual standard" or "casual modern" people laugh. People genuinely treat this like it's impossible. But if someone makes an overpowered commander deck.. "no no thats not Commander.. that cEDH". THIS IS BACKWARDS!! No one calls modern, "cModern" but when you ask them to play they immediate respond with "I don't have fetch lands" or I don't play pro. This is insane to me! The reason it's so hard to critique Commander and why these power level discussions are even necessary is because people fundamentally misunderstand what casual means. There is literally nothing about Commander that fundamentally makes it the one and only casual format.
Please Professor.. Please encourage other people to play casually in other paper formats. It won't solve the power level problem but it will expand it into a wider understanding that will benefit all of Magic.
There's a fundamental misunderstanding with how those other formats work: if you provide incentives for winning, you will invariably and inevitably push people towards tuning their decks to win.
THAT is why Standard, Modern, and other constructed formats are seen as competitive-by-default: WotC subsidizes prizes for sanctioned tournaments in those formats, and the pursuit of those prizes causes people to refine their decks, in turn purchasing product.
@@PuppetSoul You're doing exactly what I'm describing. I'm talking about playing other formats casually and you're telling me that be done casually because of tournaments. The fact that you're jumping immediately to tournaments and sanctioned events is exactly the problem that I'm trying to point out.
@@VagabondTE because you don't understand why those formats exist.
Standard doesn't exist because a bunch of casual players got together and set an arbitrary limit for a rotating pool. It exists because WotC said, "We'll pay you to win in this format we made."
This is where the concept of "going infinite" comes from: that you win enough purse/product to not have to pay out of pocket to play in your desired prizing format.
So if you want to have Commander immediately shift to competitive tryharding, offer a Collector's booster to the winner of each pod, and watch how fast the social contract gets torn asunder in favor of winning, and "politicking" becomes a phrase for forming pre-tournament alliances.
You get what you incentivize: most constructed formats have fame-and-fortune incentives as their foundation. Commander doesn't.
@@PuppetSoul When you play pro it probably seems like that's all there is, but the vast.. VAST majority of Magic the Gathering players have never even been to a tournament. I've play standard for over a decade and I don't even know a pro player. So no, it does not exist solely for competitive scene. Only a few years ago people didn't even know what Commander was. You honestly think Magic the Gathering has been purely competitive for 40 years?
And EVEN IF that was the case.. that only applies to standard. Pauper just barely got sanctioned before covid hit so don't pretend like it has a competitive scene. Not to mention that dozens of other formats you're not going to mention because they don't support your argument. Saying that Commander is the only casual format is absurd.
I got my actual start with Magic (really playing, not agglomerating every card I owned into a 200 thick pile and hardly knowing the rules) at a weekly community center meet-up group. They played Standard, including multiplayer formats, until Modern came into being, at which point we switched to that. It wasn't really FNM, so there was no official tournament tracking - sometimes the host provided prizes for winning, but as time went on more games were held just for play's sake alone. The host endeavored to create an environment where the many young players coming in didn't feel out of their depth, but there was also room for players to improve themselves and their decks over time.
It worked out really well, and I though I left the region long ago I preferred that multiplayer Standard and Modern experience to EDH (which the group also, eventually, picked up in my final years there). It's sort of insane to me that EDH, which has a card pool roughly equivalent to Legacy, is so often billed as THE "casual" format. People want to win in general; some people more, some people less, a few not at all, but at its core Magic is not a cooperative game. Thus, the difference between the power floor and ceiling with a card pool as huge as EDH's is going to cause massive imbalances even if no one is treating it like tournament play.
Yes, @PuppetSoul, Standard and Modern chiefly exist to produce a certain sort of competitive metagame, but they also supply a basis for a slimmed down card pool that can work equally well in setting expectations for casual play. Rather than trying to say "anything goes :)" (like the college group I played in after the one I talked about above) and then have someone bring in... well, what happens when an EDH pod has three people with precons and one person with a $4000 optimized deck, or vice versa.
I love this. Most people in my play group trend toward doing a lot of this naturally but there are one or two people who don't and it feels awkward to push them towards it. Normalising this with our play group will help :)
4 minutes in and Prof called me sexy lol
I love this. Conversations about desires and intentions will always be more effective than arbitrary rating systems! Hopefully more players take this guidance to heart, Prof. Thank you!
Brave man, suggesting open communication can solve problems. Love it!
Semi agree with this. My group don't talk about length or grade level.
We straight up say no combo, no fast mana, no tutors, no MLD, no mass discard, no insta-loopy effects.
While people are fazed when they hear this, they seem to underestimate the size of the card pool. There's so many other cards out there.
The Prof is such a treasure to the Magic community
❤❤❤
You're so right about communication Prof, so many posts on facebook chat groups are discussing power levels and experiences with their playgroup and I realised every reply I gave said that they need to be more open in discussing things with their playgroup. I pet peeve of mine is when combo players aren't open about their combos and pieces. Just tell me what your wincon is, it's not fun for anyone if you just pretend to be a weak deck and then win out of nowhere turn 4. There should be a period before the game starts where everyone has a chat about what their decks does and then everyone knows what they're getting themselves into!
I love how prof is just like the premiere youtuber teaching men social skills lmao
I was first introduced to magic by an old high school friend. We played a few games and I couldn't defend myself against her angels deck. I thought playing counter magic and mill were the smartest ways to play since then I didn't have to deal with the fliers at all. I misunderstood the clear frustration on my friend's face since these were all cards in the game. Thank you for your insights and explanations. They've genuinely helped me so much in my journey as a Magic player. As a rule of thumb for myself, I now run a maximum of 1 counterspell in my commander decks and 30% of all ramp and card draw in my decks are group hug effects so that EVERYONE gets a chance to play.
Yes, it is never that straightforward as picking a number.
Yeah, could not agree more.
This is actually perfect. I decided to get into Commander because I really loved the idea of a deck full of flavour. I wanted to do a tribal Gruul deck full of satyrs, nothing fancy. But it got really tiresome when all I found were 200 IQ combo decks where I was dead at round 3 at the most with no time to enjoy at all.
When Commander tips are about being a good person and being considerate of others. I love videos about this, a nice reminder about the core of the game. It's the thing we do to have fun
Some absolutely solid advice, I was extremely lucky with my old group. W all enjoyed competitive games, we all had some pretty intense decks but game time swung WILDLY. Anywhere from a couple turns because the goblin tribal got its tokens out early to multiple hours when we combined two-headed giant and two control players ended up on the same team.
I'm so glad that creators are addressing this!!!
Two years ago I went to my LGS with a friend to find a game or two of EDH. First guy we talk to says he'd love to play a casual game with us, then proceeds to take out his Niv-Mizzet Reborn deck that slaps both our decks about with one hand tied behind its back. Never been that bent out of shape over MTG, never even considered playing with that guy again, and my friend and I still regularly reference the experience. Two. Years. Ago.
Hey professor how’s you’re day going?
So far so good! You?
@@TolarianCommunityCollege it’s going great because you uploaded
love this, and to be honest, yes, is really subjective, you have to talk with your playgroup and all that, BUT... we al can agree that an explosive beginning like fetch, reserve dual lands, expensive mana rocks, to dockside, to combo in 3 turns is not a 6 power level deck, like the command zone, for example, says about their decks
Love your vids Prof. Insightful as always.
Much appreciated
I don't know that the "play to win" vs "play to socialize" discussion is as straightforward as that. I ALWAYS play to socialize, but that doesn't mean I'm not also trying to win. That's the object of the game, after all. I want to do my cool things and, as a result, WIN. But it's not like that's the SOLE reason I'm there. 'Play to win' doesn't JUST mean being cutthroat and assembling combos. This may just be a problem of how it's worded, but this section did feel a little off to me. I try to play smart, and do powerful things, and my opponent's regularly do the same. We always try to win, but we're also socializing and just there to have fun. I don't think these are things that need to be at odds in any way.
I feel like we need the Professor's video as a standardized questionnaire that Wizards releases. Why Wizards? Because if the mothership releases it, people will think it's official and will be "forced" to use it.
I'd imagine the questionnaire would ask things like: Do you want to win? How many turns would you ideally want to play? If you don't win, what would make you happy? How much money does your deck cost? Do you have tutors? How many cards can you draw in a game? What type of deck/archetype are you playing? How many Rares/Mythics does your deck have? Have any/How many cards in your deck been Banned in other formats? What types of decks/archetypes do you want to play against? What types of decks/archetypes do you NOT want to play against?
The Weis and Hickman section on your shelf puts a smile on my face everytime I see it. Not mention the Death Gate Cycle hardbacks below.
Commander is supposed to be fun and casual. Not cedh. That’s a sin. So that’s why I’m going to build a teferi, mage of zhalfir mono blue control deck
These questions are really useful for any gathering of Magic: The Gathering.
When I was in college, I went to the first meeting of the sci-fi club which included some MTG players. Four of us, all freshmen, decided to play a 4-way game of Magic. All three of them broke out their best, most oppressive decks right from the start and it was a miserable game. Then, the guy across from me took out a new deck and said, "I'll beat you with my Sliver deck." I never went back to the club, which I still regret, because I wanted a social game to make new friends.
I wish I had asked Professor's second question before playing. I might have made good friends that day and stayed with the club. I really regret never going back.
This makes EDH sound very very much not for me.
Bro, go play it wtf
The best advice I've heard (maybe here, but I think from Vince) is "Don't play to win when building your deck." Obviously, when you sit down, you try to win. But don't make that the priority of (EDH) deck-building. There are many other formats where you can brew to win; Commander is the one that's supposed to be different. At least, it is from where I sit.
It usually comes to "are we memeing or big boi?"
I went to a new locals yesterday and had never played in a commander Pod with strangers before. I got absolutely blown out and felt pretty bad about it. It's nice to see a video like this the day after, I'll definitely be implementing these tips next time I go. I wasn't being very communicative before matches cause I didnt know anyone. Thanks for the tips!
When I sit down I ask: "Uninhibited, what turn would you kill the table by?"
So legitimate question, when you answer this question do you quantify it with “with a perfect hand I can win turn 2-3 but I need all the cards in hand”.
Like I can’t pull it off every time but it can happen. I never know how to answer that question.
Many of us cannot answer this question.
If you goldfish at all you should be able to answer this question. If you can't, you gotta learn more about your deck. Saying you don't know is just lazy.
I own 15 commander decks. Most are turn 10, a couple are turn 6, the most casual ones are turn 14/15. This totally out of the top of my head
It's not about your best possible play, it's about your average play.
I also think this kind of begs the question that people built decks to play solitaire magic, and misses a lot of bigger problems. Some decks won't win quickly, but they'll build nearly insurmountable amounts of advantage that their chances of winning increases more and more. Some decks can win quickly, but if people play some simple interaction, they're easy to stop.
And of course it's also a difficult question to answer for new decks without some experience.
My friends and I came up with a pretty consistant way of telling how powerful a commander deck is:
What's your deck's gameplan?
How fast does your deck accomplish its gameplan?
How easy is your deck's gameplan to interrupt?
How fast does your deck win once it accomplished its gameplan/setup?
A good example is my friend's mono red Zada combo deck:
Its gameplan is to play a couple of tokens, then Zada and start the OTK combo. (very strong)
The combo can start as soon as turn 2 with the right cards, but usually turn 4 or 5. (strong - very strong)
Killing Zada or countering one of the important spells the combo needs to start pretty much loses him the game. (very weak)
His deck usually wins when he plays Zada and it stays on the board, but sometimes he starts the combo, goes through half his deck but fails to get the next card to continue the combo. (strong-very strong)
His deck is definitively strong, probably stronger than most other decks in our play group but gets hard countered by any somewhat controlly/reactive deck. Its not cEDH level, but it's very close imo. So if we say 9/10 and 10/10 is cEDH level, his deck is definitively an 8/10.
I hate that this is a thing. Imagine complaining in a constructed format that your opponents deck is too strong. A proper ban list would solve all of this.
Thank you, my biggest issue with edh is that you can't just play. Politics is more important than the actual cards, I just can't get behind it
Do you mind explaining what you mean by a "proper ban list". Other formats ban cards that show overwhelming force in tournaments and such but I'm not sure you could do the same with EDH since there isn't really an overarching meta for it.
Commander was never meant for competitive play. Go play a tournament of your shitty 1-on-1 format of choice!
"Sometimes though, it's just the end of the week, and everyone's tired." - This. I hope people appreciate that for a lot of people, playing edh is a release from stress, and a way to have fun and enjoy socializing without worrying about office politics. Table politics are just fine! Personally, the fun I have is very much tied to knowing that other people at the table are having fun, and sharing joy and some laughs. Casual or cedh, it doesn't matter, as long as this is communicated, and people are - at the least - cordial. Someone who is just salty - about losing, about winning, about table politics, a sore winner, or a poor sport with every interaction - they are simply a brat nobody should have to deal with.
Me : What are you playing
Them: Stacks
* Door slams behind me.*
It's written 'stax', but I wholeheartedly agree
@@mathieuaurousseau100 I feel that speaking its name gives it power. NO! It has been intoned.
Somewhere a winter orb has been put into play.
Very good point you make my fellow professor! I’m a magic player and adjunct at Belmont University, and I have been following you for years. This is one of the best points I’ve heard from ANY commander content: “it’s about the games, not the decks” -The Professor
Vegeta, what's the scouter say about his power level?
It's over 9,000!
My pod definitely prefers multiple fast games of MTG and we had a couple of level setting discussions about it. My friend's Mogis deck certainly sets the game to a 10 turn clock. It also encourages the players of go big creature decks to get more efficient ramp as they need to get their engines up and running quickly. I have 10 different decks of varying power between cEDH Urza Powered Scepter (that I usually don't run unless asked to) and a coinflip based Zndersplnt and Okaun deck, so I get to fine tune the experience for others in the pod.
Level setting before shuffling up is definitely the best way to do it. Explain the deck, what it does and what to look for and there will be less "feel bads" all around. Or find yourself a good group that doesn't care what you play in moderation, be it stax, MLD and others.
Commander as a game is obsessed with people "getting upset". It's a game. So you get blown out. Who cares? Move on, discuss if you want to play a different kind of game next or just don't play. Nobody should be getting upset. It is a game. We entertain far too much toxicity by entertaining the idea that people should be losing their temper during games.
(Lots of good advice in the video though)
While I get what you mean, I have a skullbriar deck for example. If I'm playing in a nice way, I'll dish or the damage equallyish and let people play their deck.
But if I wanted to play optimal, I'd target the deck that might be best against me. I can at least knock out one player within a few turns if I focus on one person. This means I knock out the same person each time within a few turns. Not very fun for them
@@supernoodles908 Sorry, I misread your post so I deleted mine to rewrite it.
I agree that if you always target the same player game after game, that is an example of something that is annoying and yep, it's likely going to get changed by the group. However, there's really no need for anger while that is happening.
@@apjapki Yeah no completely disagree. I hate the mindset if you get mad you shouldn't play. Nah that's actually dumb. Sometimes you could be playing with a bad group, there could be any number of valid reasons to get upset at something. At the end of the day though if you find yourself getting angry too often with your group, perhaps it's time to find better friends.
@@darklordrowan6152 But why are you getting mad? Are people cheating? Are they being rude to you?
What other hobby will regularly say, "Something abour our hobby is that players get upset all the time and we take that for granted"? Board Games don't!
Let's be clear. You don't have to like it but you not liking it is not the other person's fault if they are just playing the game. You may need to talk to improve the game. You don't have a passport to demonstrate your anger.
I like the idea of power tiers (low-, medium- and high power), I've been using it more and more.
High power being probably my friend's Najeela deck and my Neheb, the Eternal deck.
they can go off earlier than most other decks in my group
tfw the ad makes you feel seen an validated. 😭
Honestly love this video, a decks power level does not dictate how a player uses the deck or who said player is playing against. For example most people would consider my decks around 7 or 8 but i tend to play like if mine are 6 or 5 because my friends and others typically arr using decks around 6 and there are more there for socializing and hanging out and wining is usually an afterthought unless the game has gone on to long.
I also tend to help out others, like if they are going to remove something that is scary but pointless in the long run, i would instead help them on how to prioritize threats and show them what they should use that removal on instead.
Command quarters, pleasant Kenobi and now the professor all making videos about Commander players and salt. Almost back-to-back Wonder what happened.
reddit happened
PlayEDH is probably a contributing factor as well, more people are playing against strangers than ever
I have a deck that consistently removes the graveyard from the game as a whole. That is what it does. There is seldom a pod where it won't hose a deck due to the rampant graveyard value decks. Given this, your advice means my deck probably shouldn't ever play against a large swath of decks. While in some cases I would agree, I would also stipulate that if a deck is weak to something (e.g. graveyard removal) then those decks need to have answers to cards that unilaterally hose them.
Jokes on you, Im playing a commander from Legends
I see you are as cultured as I: I play Nebuchadnezzar 😁
March Challenge: a Tobias Andrion deck that isn't a bunch of crapstax.
Is it Staang?
@Jojoforpres Yeah.
I'd suggest playing against things you think you hate but haven't played against it at least once. My mate made an infect commander deck, I hate infect. But I played against it anyway and it turns out I really like his deck, there's interesting turns to watch and interact with.
thank you, prof, i have had trouble with this.
You are welcome!
My own playgroup has been together long enough to understand how each player builds decks. Whenever we come to the table with a new brew, we always follow the game with something like "how did you guys feel about that deck?"
We also developed our own pointing system to help keep things balanced and also to reinforce better creativity.
Let’s go back to the old days where we all just isolated Esper players.