The Problem with cEDH
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2024
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0:00 Intro
1:48 Card diversity
6:11 Social dynamics
8:28 Counterpoint to card diversity (ft. the Trinket Mage)
12:28 Conclusion - เกม
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Fantastic video! Really love hearing the concept of CEDH from a newcomer's perspective! As an enfranchised CEDH player, it can be difficult sometimes to look at the format at this level and without bias. You pointed out its upsides and flaws very well! You've gained a new subscriber today. Keep up the great work! Looking forward to more.
Thank you! I appreciate the praise, and I also appreciate the high quality cEDH gameplay content :D
He insulted you, clown. Called you a newcomer and you liked it. 😅
One crucial thing about cEDH that makes the format unique is that it's a competitive format with a banlist, but the banlist is not made or curated for the formats meta at all. The Modern banlist is basically created by letting the best players try to "break" the format and then ban the cards that are so dominant that the meta can't adjust to them. If this was the case for cEDH then it's very likely that Dockside, Underworld Breach and Consult/Pact would be banned which could lead to more diverse win conditions, or Mystic Remora banned leading to more diverse draw engines etc.
I still think building a competitive format using the commander banlist is kinda derpy
CEDH has too many strong engines to ban them all (you would essentially have to ban all of the ultra-fast mana, all of the strong tutors, all of the strong 1 mana draw engines etc.), but Thoracle really is the biggest culprit, imho. The fact that removing Thoracle in response to the trigger is completely useless blanks a lot of options that are open to stop many other combos in their tracks, making the format revolve much more around counters, stax effects and - at times - stifle-effects than it otherwise would. I really think Thoracle should be banned in Commander, it's not a casual card in the slightest (Dockside, at least, sees play in some casual pirate or golbin decks and is much weaker against usually Green-based battlecruiser decks that mostly ramp with lands) and it's also really problematic in CEDH.
Counter point: you can call yourself or a format 'competitive' all you want, but it doesn't make it actually a competitive format. cEDH is still casual players playing a casual format, they are just power gaming within a casual format with an extremely unbalanced and permissive ruleset and banned list that isn't concerned with creating or maintaining a healthy competitive meta, and the severe lack of ecological diversity in cards is a predictable outcome of that.
For some reason, cEDH players just really needed to adopt a name for themselves that's full of pretension and sounds like delusions of grandeur coming from a group of people that by in large haven't ever and don't ever plan on stepping foot in *actual* sanctioned high level play of *actual* competitive 1v1 formats. Hell, French/Duel EDH is already a significantly more serious and honest attempt at creating a competitive format version of EDH and cEDH players have had the option to play French for *years* now if they were really serious about their claims of being competitive players that just want a version of EDH with rules and bans made for there specific needs. The fact that they don't is something that all their actions and words are held up to like a mirror IMO, and makes what they say they want, but don't do, end up making them seem exceptionally dishonest about what their real desire is; which seems like a weird thing to do about something with no stakes at all like EDH....but then again people are often so attached to appearances and cultivating a specific persona that feeds their ego and maintains there ideas about themselves that they will do some amazing mental gymnastics over how they want to play a game vs the labels they want to claim about their place in the game. There are certainly cEDH players that more honest about what they really want, that they really just want to play powerful broken stuff, but simply continuing to use the name cEDH means there's always a thin layer of cosplaying as competitive players.
Which is really the thing that I think drives most of us nuts about the average cEDH player: it's pretension. The claim to high level play or competitive play from people mucking about casual and bowling strikes with the bumpers up. The often implied and many times outright stated belief of lots of cEDH players that there is an *inherent* skill floor difference between them and other EDH players derived *solely* from the power level they choose to play casual at. They they are smarter and/or better at the game because they choose to play obviously powerful and linear cards and decks in casual, and conversely that other players are bad because they aren't good enough at the game to play those cards and decks. It's not all cEDH players, but it's more than enough, and it's generally those cEDH players that only engage with MtG via cEDH and play no other formats or power levels.
tl'dr: cEDH is just multiplayer casual like the rest of multiplayer casual. Casual is still sandlot baseball if you play it with bats, Gundams, Death Stars or 007 miniature lasers; no differences in how you play a casual format will ever make you a competitive or pro player any more than showing up to game of pick-up basketball wearing an Iron Man suit will make you an MLB player.
@@StrongButAwkwardsomeone’s very mad that people want different things out of the format than they do :)
This is such a weird take man. CEDH is not a distinct format, it is just a word people use when playing EDH decks that use the best cards in the card pool.
EDH is also not competitive, you can play it competitively but to call it a competitive format is to not understand competitive integrity. EDH is a free-for-all format which means there is a lot of good faith that is required to actually play fairly and competitively i.e. no collusion, no kingmaking, no targeting. These things are impossible to curate which means it’s incredibly easy for people to cheat and play dirty with no reasonable mechanism to stop them, unlike 1v1 formats.
Not to disparage anyone that likes playing top tier decks but you need to come back to reality and realize that this is a casual format. There are no high level tournaments, nor will there ever be because of the issues I listed above.
Thanks for having me it was fun working with you on this vid!
Oh hey, small world. It was cool to hear you talk about your cEDH Jace deck, as my biggest bugbear with cEDH is the homogeneity of decks I was running against. Might give it another try sometime
Love your collab with Snail too! th-cam.com/video/_ZZgh6V9OQ4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=HoblCo7D7nOszNuk
6:48 The rule 0 conversation IS that you're playing cEDH. It's **technically** the same format as commander
i always find it funny how people talk about cedh like it's a different format.
@@edhdeckbuilding I prefer to treat it as a different format. Yes, it is Commander, but come on, I think we can agree a cEDH Najeela x cEDH Yuriko x Casual Ayula x Casual Wilson/Tavern Brawler would be a really unbalanced and unfun table. Treating cEDH as a different format help me explain people the absolute difference those decks have.
It's a different meta. At that level, you're playing to deal with the specific threats played at that level which also homogenizes cards.
Yep. The "benefits" mentioned in the video aren't ones distinct to cedh becausse it somehow bypassess rule 0, rather they're outcomes that manifest from the use of rule 0, which "cedh" is simply a permutation of
It's literally the same format minus all the whining.
i see nothing but facts. coming from a casual and competitive player who thoroughly enjoys commander as a whole
Soo true
Same with anything competitive, everyone wants to play the best stuff therefore you get no variety
@@milkydoesstuff1828 Except as discussed in the video, ban lists are catered to the format to provide variety and structure to the format. Cloudpost decks from 2011 can still beat Rakdos scam today with a decent win percentage despite being way out of date. It's banned in Pauper and Modern because it's one of the strategies that does take over the format. Same with how Fury needed to go to open up more potential for creature decks again, except they printed Bowmasters which had basically the same impact on creature decks but was less likely to 4-for-1 your ass. Top is still an exceptionally strong card and would show up all over the place in Modern, but it creates a miserable play experience of *regularly* going to time in every game of every match you play with or against it.
The commander banlist's sole focus was and is currently stated to only be concerned with unfun play experiences or play patterns. There's no consideration for actual balancing. Calling it cEDH is kind of silly and to a lot of people comes off as pretentious. You're fundamentally avoiding the behavioral pillars of the format but still tying yourself to it by name and some people who use this term go even further and imply they should also be catered to in a format that wasn't made for them. A decade ago you just said you had high power decks and everyone knew to expect lots of combo-y horseshit and as much quick mana as was possible. Now the cute little community needs a shibboleth to say the same thing just saying high power decks meant in 2011.
Play both, love both. But if I'm not playing cEDH I do highly prefer high power because I want to play decks and play vs decks that can close the game out. I hate when games drag on.
@@mcculloughfamily6984same. Unless I’m playing with a group or 1v1 where I’m mostly playing for the conversation, I find the standstill that most people’s decks end up at quite boring. That’s why combos are fun for me
As a cEDH player, this was a very gracious representation of the format; as a fan of yours I didn't expect something bad, but I was a little unsure with the title you presented. Thanks for the video
Same. The title was unnecessarily incendiary, but he did a good job presenting all sides of the equation.
The only thing I think he didn't touch on was that, even though decks can look homogenous, the playstyle can massively change how it plays in practice. Kenrith decks come in all flavors and often share a lot of core cards, but the 15-20 flex slots dedicated to personal playstyle can make them actually play wildly different, despite the apparent homogeneity.
@@damienbrandle4839😮ú
My pipeline from casual to competitive EDH came from bad experiences playing on TTS and Spelltable. Removing the feelsbads or salt by just sitting down and playing to win is how I like to approach any game of magic.
It’s how every single other format of Magic is played, so it’s kinda odd when casual heads try to say it’s not fun or it’s weird to play it competitively. Like bro it’s just playing commander with the card pool you have ?
@@RINNECODAthe issue is most games in general are played that way but casuals try to warp the expectations to their likes and wants. Imagine going to a football game where people “play for fun” like what?
@RINNECODA its not even a magic problem its all multiplayer vs games
@@aR0ttenBANANA I mean Sunday leagues and beer leagues exists for people who just wants to enjoy the sport and play because they think its fun, some teams don't even have coaches and they definitely not train optimally to win these games. So if someone like Leo Messi would show and run circles around these people i doubt people would enjoy that if it happened every week, just so he could feed his own ego. Or Connor McGregor would show up at the local dojo tournament and start beating the shit out of the local guys and claim they suck and shouldn't complain because it's a competitive environment.
It's being completely tonedeaf and sometimes makes me wonder if people are just not completely dishonest and try to gaslight people into agreeing upon an environment of play they didn't want to play in.
Completely agree with you on the "feelsbad" thing. It's what prevents me from playing casual commander in general.
For me Magic isn't made more fun by worrying about if other people have fun- its a new chore that wasn't there when I played in 2015
also, i completely agree and like the idea presented of rule zero. something that ive taken away from my play at competitive to casual tables is the mindset of 'let people play whatever'. i always tell people that they shouldnt complain about what cards are on the other side of the table. you can ask them to change decks, remove yourself from the table yourself, etc. but whining or complaining reduces fun for everyone.
I usually find another pod. People who knowingly play power decks at casual tables are usually there to feed their egos. They know what's expected, lie about their deck, then scoff when someone objects. They can go to perdition.
That's a cEDH attitude, which is perfectly fine for that format. Just don't complain when casual players ask you to find another table.
@FallenStarFeatures : yes. This.
@FallenStarFeatures doesn't matter bc you can play casual decks with competitive mind set. It's the players skill level/reach these kids will still whine
@MrCenturion13 if they arent willing to swap after you ask and they understand the situation theyre causing, yeah they just arent worth playing with
As a cEDH player - this is absolutely accurate. I don't even feel the need for the incendiary title. It all feels very Fair and Balanced(TM) to me.
If your idea of balance is most people running samey decks
@@BingbongRecto What an odd thing to say in response to my comment.
@@BingbongRecto a game of chess or a match of street fighter 2 Ryu vs Ryu are really enjoyable experiences, so similar game pieces doesn't make a game necessarily bland or boring
Love cEDH and casual EDH, it is just that they are completely different social experiences, people who like tennis doesn't necessarily likes badminton or vice versa
sure but balanced? and u really compared cedh to chess huh
@@BingbongRectoYou're reaching to try and save face. It isn't working.
Make proper comments in good faith or please speak on a public forum. Thanks.
This all sounds very familiar for some reason.
Thank you for playing Yugioh Master Duel.
Everyday I hear a magic the gathering player cope about how many cards there are in their game when there are really only 500.
@@SLVYER1I was about to say “oh, “”only”” five hundred, you say”, but then I remembered that’s not an unreasonable amount of Pokemon to know when quizzed. And I still have enough memory for Magic.
Meanwhile a modern Yugioh card, if it’s readable to begin with, reads like a legal document that can OTK if you read the fine print
@@lancesmith8298 Terrified of templating and keywords.
@@lancesmith8298 It's why Yugioh players don't read, if you can't read it, it can't hurt you.
@@dragoknighte48More like they don't read because most cards say "search other card that searches other card that searches other card that summons other card that goes into generic extra deck wincon". It's an overly consistent soup of combo turns that effectively FTK the opponent if they don't open what is essentially a free cast counterspell (and that's usually not enough), a Wrath if they know they're going second post board, and their own combo for the crack back. There's a reason a lot of players prefer to play a time locked format from 2010 instead of 2024 Yugioh.
Very simple. In EDH there are like 30,000 legal cards, and 15,000 of them are viable. In cEDH, there are 30,000 legal cards, and 500 of them are viable.
Woah what's the difference?
@machina188 In cEDH, it's very well documented, which cards are good enough, and what cards aren't good enough. In cEDH, you, for the most part, can't really get away with playing "janky" or "pet" cards that would be fine in casual or even higher-powered EDH. If you want to stay hyper-efficient and compete against other decks that are all doing their best to win.
Isn't every game of EDH competitive? I started playing EDH in 2011 with a playgroup who'd been playing since 2006 and like, cEDH just means the most expensive build to us now.
But what EDH game isn't a competitive competition with 1 winner in the end?
Like if you actually fall in love with this game, your card evaluations and deck building logic does start to dwindle down what cards and commander's you'd even consider as years go by, 99 cards is not a lot... good cards are purposely few and far between in WotC card design. Like, there is a power ceiling that is rarely broken, and most cards are purposely designed to be "bad cards", you can maybe find a Mark Rosewater Drive to Work from 2011-2014 where he explains what "bad cards" are and their goal to make bad cards more fun in the future.
Budget magic is better than ever though. I think breaking up EDH into Budget EDH, EDH and then cEDH (just the most expensive builds possible, which should mean the most powerful cards, which are designed to be scarce) should be how the community talks about EDH.
I swear this EDH vs cEDH is just weird semantics. Like in 2011-2015, in Nor Cal you could find EDH tournaments with $5 entry fees with the money turning into store credit for the winner. People would bring their "tournament decks" and if they won that week, or the final table decided to split, they would use the store credit to help build another "tournament" deck. People weren't showing up to those with $5,000+ decks... that often... like, it was just the best decks lgs players had, coming together on a Wednesday, playing EDH for a chance at like $10 - $40 store credit. There are real chess similarities with Magic: The Gathering...like there are a finite amount of game pieces, like...mastering a game means learning it... like if you don't understand the concept of Philosophy of Fire in Magic The Gathering, then like, you're probably having fun just doing jank, clueless to how card evaluation works. Isn't understanding a game fun? Or is that not true anymore? Ignorance is the real bliss in games?
@@matthewbryant2972 There's a very real difference in a cEDH tournament with strong prize support and a fun weekly local.
The second is competitive on the surface only. Some might enter just to test out some neat new build they've made, or run some jank they're just itching to run. People would like to win, but winning is hardly the overall goal.
At something with a 30-50 dollar entry fee though? No pet decks, very little jank except from the brewers that are crazy people. Expect the 5000 deck en masse if there's real prizes on the line.
There's definitely something to be said about ignorance is bliss, a lot of the hate cEDH draws is the distain of what magic looks like when the curtain is pulled back. No, it's not balanced, or even particularly varied if you're trying to win. There's a very definitive list for whatever colors you run, and little to no room for deckbuilding expression.
And that's okay. But for casuals, especially longtime players, it can be jarring.
@@bretts3046 I mean you technically could it is just highly unlikely that you will win often as sometimes you will win it happens. But for the most part there is usually room for A pet card or two, especially if the card is very useful in general like Karn the Great Creator even if not running a stax deck as he shuts down your opponents artifacts their main mana source and can just simply pop their 0 cost fast mana
Now Karn is better than playing a Null Rod simply because he only affects your opponents artifacts not yours meaning you have massive mana advantage and tempo
It was nice to see you two collab. I found both of you around the same time, and you both have really helped me get better at the game.
I expected to be mad, but am 100% on board and agree with most all of this. I play both and feel like applying lessons learned between the two has made my games more fun overall
If u genuinely get mad about a video then it is probably time to touch some grass
LOVE THE COLLAB. I watch you and @trinket mage a ton. Love your approaches to commander
This channel constantly surprises me. I wouldn't have expected cedh to be a conversation had here. But you covered it excellently and I'm hoping you continue to grow deservedly to the size of a channel benefitting the quality of your arguments and videos. Good luck.
I really appreciate this video. I am casual 'til I die, but I pay attention to cEDH because I find it super interesting.
This is why I love playing high power off meta, we are borderline CEDH but playing decks that are built around uncommon commanders. It's a fantastic mix of high power plays with deck diversity
"High power casual" is most fun way to play
I love high powered casual but I feel like it's the worst middle ground since I'll always get hate for playing "cedh" while not being able to hang in an actual cedh table
@@Gentasu968 that's fair, however that's why I play with a dedicated pod regularly
There is one gameplay advantage cedh has over casual edh: it has a clearly defined meta, so you can confidently run anti-meta techs. Rule of Law and Red Elemental Blast are *guaranteed* to be effective. Possibly against all three opponents.
EDIT: yep, Trinket Mage confirmed it.
I mean sure... but then just play Legacy or something man.
Maybe watch the video before commenting?
this was a very good video. i had no idea from cedh until my friend invited me for an evening to play one of his decks. it was cool. but after 5x win with the same combo, i had seen it all.
its a good format for its own. it shud never appear in a normal commander table.
Really good video. I have so many comments but I will just say you are correct with modification. But still your correct. I think it was really good to have someone come and say something short about it.
No rule 0 makes cEDH much pleasurable for me personally
This was so well put together. Great job!
cEDH is best described by me as “The journey is more fruitful than the destination”.
Everyone knows the endgame, everyone knows everyone’s wincons and how they arrive there. But why I play cEDH is because the journey to get to the W is complex and extremely entertaining. You have Stack interactions that you’d never expect, you have lines to a win that you’d never expect to have to execute, and you have a meta that’s constantly evolving and changing.
It’s also a much different culture: the only Rule 0 is “Win, at any cost”; there is no real salt; deck optimization is king and proxies are welcome; and play optimally and impersonally (no Spite, no Kingmaking when it can be avoided, and try to make the ‘optimal’ decision).
I like knowing the end of the story, but the journey there is why I read the book. That’s why I play cEDH.
I've been looking at cEDH on and off for a few months, but never saw more than the surface level. I'll have to look into it more, this is really interesting summary
Really enjoyed this video and then you dropped Trinket Mage!!! Two of my favorites in the same video?!? Nice
Great video, and overall a solid presentation of the format's upsides and downsides.
As you said, the overarching issue with casual games not being fun is misalignment of expectations. There are several main forms it takes and it doesn't simply boil down to power level differences. You hit on this, and a lot of the discourse tends to gloss over it.
For me, the most egregious offender for polarized experiences is the idea that a game of EDH should be an hour or more and build up an epic boardstate. In the majority of cases, it ends up being a slog where people are too afraid to just win and "end the fun." Thankfully, this trend seems to be reversing somewhat. People have become more willing to accept that it's usually more fun to play a few faster games for a more rounded overall experience.
You should do a video about pauper commander, or PDH. I recently got into it and it has roughly the same arguments for it that cedh does, no rule 0. But it ALSO has a much wider card variety because of how limited you are in power level
I've had a lot more fun than I expected with a spur of the moment pedh deck than I ever expected. Zoyowa has really forced some players to think, and I loved how the table reacted when I cast Phyresis for the first time
Best part of Cedh is to take a random deck and try to build it in the strongest way possible. Even mono colored deck can win from time to time.
Really great video! I play casual EDH too, but my favorite mode is cEDH for all the reasons you listed: High-speed games with lots of interaction, no/little salt, and being allowed to do the strongest/meanest(not mean to people, but mean to their ability to play) things you can think of if it helps you win. But at the same time, it has its flaws as a format, many of which you outlined here.
Another flaw is that the ban list isn't catered to a competitive format. I'm of the opinion that the ban list should be even smaller, but I can also see a world where the ban list should be expanded to hit some of the cards that are so ubiquitous because of their power level. (But, if the format were slowed down too much, it would also lose much of its allure.)
I found this to be quite helpful. I've been looking into CEDH for a while now. I got a few friends willing to jump into it with me. But being me, I made an Esior and Kediss combat tricks deck. I'm glad to hear that off meta stuff can do some work at the right tables.
Loved seeing the surprise guest!
Very good video! I am relatively new to EDH as a whole as I joined during LotR, and it was cool to see what the upper extreme offers and what benefits and issues it faces. I think as a new player I have trouble gauging the power of my own decks so a turn 0 conversation on power level would be hard for me.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your rule 0 statement: casual commander is wildly unbalanced if expectations are not put forward. And it’s the reason why I typically don’t like the rating system for commander. “Oh your deck is a 7?” What constitutes a 7? No one rocks up to the table and says “yea I have a power 3 deck”, it’s that clear expectation that I enjoy about cEDH. It’s about playing to win, that’s the mindset. I’ll never forget the guy who played karametra and absolutely destroyed our table because he knew how to play to win. Good pilots can maneuver any deck so long as that deck has a play to win .
The little line on talking to your fellow commander games spoke true to me.
Back when i played Magic i always asked if they where using strong or more friendly and casual EDH decks, Depending on what they answered opt'ed what deck i picked.
Something that will try and win, Or something that was goofy and fun.
I’ve had a very similar experience with Tiny Leaders Reborn. However, the advantage of that format is that it’s very young, so the meta is still undecided.
I don't know Reborn, but I've had fun with Tiny Leaders in the past. It's just hard to find a pod.
Holy fuck what a good video. One thing I'd like to add is that sometimes the lack of diversity makes cedh easier to enter. It makes it much easier to learn the meta cards and quickly learn the meta game. For those who have played for very long periods of time they sometimes choose more fringe options for diversity. This works out great because their skill can make up for lack of colors/ raw power in the deck. I can't help but agree with your impression the top decks feel "samey" but when I was entering the format it really helped ease the learning curve.
Good vid, describing casual vs competetive in every format in every cardgame. My storeowner goes on competetive pokemon events with me and it´s always the same conversation: "Dad I wanna play my hisuian Arcanine deck, all the meta stuff is bland and boring"... "go for it son, just be aware you´re going to lose, a lot." Of course off meta picks are a thing, as neither lists nor players are well adapted to them, but building a good offmeta deck is about as time and skill intensive as cardgames get. What I´d like to see in stores is budget cEDH. Build the most powerful deck you can, on a 50€ budget. Of course, we could impose other deck building restrictions as well, like it has to be monocolured or domain, so long as they are the same for everyone and the premise is to try and win. I´m sure there would be a lot of moments of "Wow, you came up with that?" in that format and no one would mind having a bunch of super cutthroat budget decks at the end of it all.
I just generally want to see more deckbuilding challenges at stores though.
My experience with yugioh back in the mid '00s is that if you were not playing the meta and instead playing fun it meant you lost. Then I tried the meta wasn't fun so I left the game forever.
I am also a fan of budgetary restricted formats. Encourages more creative deck building.
@@josephrion3514 Makes a lot of sense, If you don´t like the meta you´re better off changing format instead of hanging on to a pet deck that makes you lose...
Yeah, I've refused to play a meta deck any of the handful of times I've actually gone to magic events at the store and given myself a $15 or 20 budget, and honestly I perform pretty well! The thing about following the meta is that a very small set of cards get expensive, and a lot of _almost_ tier 1 cards just end up as bulk. I walked into an MTG Standard tournament with a $13 deck and came close to winning, and everyone was running meta lists.
They're very true about you can make cEDH out of anything. I made Tayam into one (as most Rule of Law effects are 3 CMC or lower, Devoted combo is easy to assemble, and Contamination can be turned on and off freely), and it was amazingly successful.
I've never seen your channel before but this video was great!
I've shifted to preferring CEDH, everyone is playing on the same level for the most part. It does feel far more limited with card choices, but for me that is a good thing as I don't have a lot of money to spend on magic.
We started playing cEDH in our playgroup and to me the biggest takeaway other than the exact thing you talked about (proxie friendlyness and powerleveldiscussion/salt) was:
All the same wincons dont make it boring, as many of us thought. Its not to defend the format from accurate observations like you did, but the thing we noticed is that the wincon is not what this game is about. When somebody has a win, noone cares how the win is "named". Wether its oracle, breach or any other combo.
The focus is on the path to get there. Talion dimir control vs for example tymna/malcom share the main wincon. They also share probably like haft the spells at least. But you gameplan and priorities are VASTLY different. And also timing and reading the table are a critical factor for success.
And thats really what makes this format. Casual games can sometimes be on the one extreme of "everyone plays their deck like its moxfield, because there is no interaction happening". cEDH is the complete opposite. Every deck can present a win reasonably fast and reliable. Its all about the interaction and the decks are stuffed with that.
That will shift the factors for a win vastly. In casual luck at the draw, maybe a "better constructed deck" and maybe randomly having an interaction up can decide games. In cEDH literally 1 mistake on where to point a counterspell or interaction can end the game within the same turncycle. So the focus is much more on the players.
We are still a mostly casual playgroup, but this reality did totally beat up on the idea many of us had that "cEDH is boring because its all the same cards". We didnt see the product of that reality because since its "all the same cards" the decisions become so much more relevant.
And to me that is the biggest difference and an opportunity to improve as a player (wich will also help you in casual). You will not learn from mistakes you make in how you spend your interaction if they dont get punished. In cEDH they WILL get punished almost certainly.
To trinket mages point:
We as newbies obviously got our foot in by basically copying decklists of stuff that looked interesting, read primers, watched deck techs and then proxied the deck. But we did avoid picking from the top of the top. And that means there is A LOT of options and staying away from those few decks makes so much more decks stay viable. We are certainly not at a level where people have their "pet deck" that they have piloted for years. But we all did manage to find decks that fit the general themes and playstyles we like and its not a table of 4 oracle decks.
Its great fun giving it a go. Printing out some cEDH decks with your friends, local playgroup or whatnot costs basically no money at all. Before hating on sth, giving it a shot first is always worth it and it really expanded our understanding of the game.
It's actually a ton of fun for me, because I love playing the off-meta ideas, and my playgroup always has their heads spinning when I'm playing Commanders like Queza or Xyris
funny that this popped up in my feed, after i played against you on cockatrice a few days ago
got me subscribing with this video being the reason ☺ good job
My two favorite new commander creators on one video!
I started playing mtg again bc a close group of friends was playing commander. Playing w/ them was fun, but I ended up never getting into the format otherwise bc I get the impression it's just salt everywhere. I know what I'm saying it's an exaggeration, but it just seems like a bunch of people not having fun because they're annoyed by anything anyone does because that makes the game unfun. It's like every time I come close to a group of edh players I overhear they shit talking someone else on those grounds (and it seems like the environment is very toxic).
I get the idea of playing for fun as a break from the very competitive mindset, but for me it's some aspect that has been always present in lgs small tournaments anyway. The problem I see w/ edh is that aspect is "enforced", while the idea of "fun" is very subjective. eg: I made a cool (for me) proxy deck, really didn't go overboard w/ power level (for me), but I'm using (a lot of) dual lands. If I don't win, nobody has a problem w/ it. If I win everyone is salty bc I'm using a lot of expensive lands that I don't have. But in my head I'm just removing the literally most unfun aspect of the game, which is getting mana screwed lol
Meanwhile, started playing pauper. The community is great (and from what I see it's kinda like that everywhere). Every week there's a small stakes tournament at the lgs, a lot of people show up with crazy brews and have fun. But nobody has a problem w/ losing to an annoying control or being run over by a t1 aggro, because they are supposed to be there.
The fact that those tier 1 decks are gonna be there also make the deckbuilding more interesting (for me), cause you have to somehow be prepared for them. And virtually every week there's a very unorthodox build that does well in the tournament.
Everybody is having fun, while not forcing anyone else to abide by their own idea of fun. People are also very welcoming/helpful towards new players, which is something I see way less at edh tables (for a supposedly casual format, everybody I see behaves like they're at the finals of a pro tour).
This is a long text just to say that everything you said about cEDH reminds me of the pauper community. Even the part where no matter the build you're gonna run some of the staple efficient cards lol. And even though it has "competitive" in the name, the vibes seem more true at heart to what edh is supposed to be.
I'll probably try some games online and see if I get into the format. Thanks for the video!
A weird phenomenon of cEDH is that many of the staple cards require opponents using strategies such as:
Tutors
Graveyard interactions
Low toughness/high value creatures
Card draw
Multiple actions in a single turn
etc.
Which can result in the cEDH deck having reduced efficacy against strong, but more "basic" decks.
Oddly enough, as someone that's played Yugioh for a long time, the competitive side of that game also suffers some extremely similar issues, you have to be willing to sacrifice deckbuilding for around half your extra deck and a quarter of your main deck on the low scale for "staples" that are so oppressively powerful and generic you'd be kneecapping yourself in that environment by not running them. It leads to a very unfun game where most decks look extremely similar, only differences being what they do inbetween setting up their boss monsters and which suite of generic boss monsters they try to make.
Collab with TrinketMage, right on 🤘🍻
the crossover I didnt expect! 😮
Mhmm and yup. And yup. Yup. I'm still waiting for the cEDH community to grow a pair and create a banlist that leads to true card diversity. That or cEDH players should just switch to playing Conquest, the best Commander variant.
Ngl kinda confused about the title choice, it feels like you didn't really go into any "problems" with the format and more just gave a good overview of it, something akin to a beginners guide almost.
You could say he posed a question and answered it. The problem? There's none actually.
He did go into the the problem of cedh. That being diversity. The section where he compares the top 10 in cedh and the cards all of them share + plus their win cons.
@@astrograph7875 he explained not all pods are combinations of those top 10 decks and that you're not necessarily obliged to play those versions like Trinket Mage mentioned. There's a meta but you can play the meta with anti meta strategies. I don't like the format but I came out of the video with a more positive outlook on it.
@@astrograph7875 Even if all decks were only the Top 10, that wouldn't necessarily be a problem. A lack of diversity is also an upside of cedh.
@@astrograph7875 what these other guys said. But in seriousness, what he did is essentially taking a look at the "top 20 commanders on EDHRec", you know, and I know, that those aren't the only commanders people play, but they are the ones that are most popular, mostly bc they are powerful.
The thing is that magic is full of cards for themes and if you get the choice you play the best card.
The best decks in a given format look basically the same too, as a format becomes "solved" and you better have a reason to play unoptimal cards, if the goal is to win it makes no sense.
Proxy friendly or not depends entirely on the tournament that runs it. Vast majority allow proxies, but not all.
This is really why I've never thought of switching off the two decks that I play when I get the occasional itch to play Magic again. They get to play a, by cEDH standards, surprisingly large amount of cards that the others at my shop do not play. I am really the only one playing Tatyova turns or Sythis fort, though both of my piles are somewhat dated -- still on the Heliod win for Sythis, after all. I already see many of the same cards in other players' decks, and if I were still playing Kess like I used to, then my deck would more-or-less just look like everyone else's with slight variation for my personal income (my store does not allow proxying of cards you cannot prove you own). Even though I don't win very often, both because I am playing decks that barely qualify as T2 and I am horribly unskilled despite years of playing EDH "to win," I still get to have fun playing decks that I like to play and enjoy the aesthetic of.
wdym with "slight variation of your personal income"? Do you not prox?
@@MisterAssasine"my store does not allow proxying of cards you cannot prove you own." I don't own anything with Mox in the name, for example, so my mana bases would always just be worse inherently. I am not shelling out for a Mox Diamond, even though it would be a great addition to both of my decks, even if they are both Couphe decks. That is just one example. Part of my deck choices is the fact that I can't afford the most expensive game pieces because I'd like to keep my savings for something more permanent than trading cards.
Love cEDH. No complaining about deck power level or politics etc. Everyone is playing to win and politicking to win.
In the store where I go to play they solved that problem very easily; the decks have to be tribal, 25 creatures all of the same type, and from time to time they add another restriction; mono color.
I played with 2 cedh players the other day, and they were some of the friendliest guys Ive met at the store. Their decks were brutal against mine, often winning on turn 3-5, but it was smfun playing against a table that wasn't getting salty about the cards I played that normally would accumulate salt.
cool video, im a sweaty modern player and i appreciate the breakdown of cedh
Masterfuly explained. Keep the theory content.
My original table was fairly casual, my current table is a cEDH table. We have decks of all ranges though because occasionally we get new players come to play with us and we dont want to pubstomp them right off the bat. I run Mana Crypt in 1 of my 11 decks, and that 1 deck also has 5-6 infinite combos. My other decks run combos, but not nearly to the same extent. I think its good to have a wide variety of things you can do at any time for players of all skill levels, and knowing when to play hard or not shows that you can assess and get a good read on any given table.
Very good Videos. I Ppay mostly Casual EDH since 2014 but from time to time watched many Videos and also played some cEDH. I still have an Tasigur the Golden Fang Deck and Yisan the Wanderbard. Your Observation and your guest are really pinpoint my experience. I still win with these Commander. New cEDH Players don't really know what to look out for. The Matchup ist very important. Yisan perfoms really well, with a Winota Player. Since both Decks also play many Stax Pieces. Also the fact, that at some point the people rannout of answers. I am building a Deck with Sissay 5 Color.
I play a ton cedh. Normally casual players have very uninformed takes that paint cedh in poor light. Thank you for this! Legit a good analysis of the formats
It's because most commander players were introduced to the game by the format. They never played tournament magic, let the internet build their deck and formulate their opinion on magic as a whole. They have duning-Krueger and are on the mountain of ignorance. Instead of taking an L and learning more about the game, they double down on their bias and say "see I'm losing because your cards are toxic and unfun", instead of trying to get better
I don't play commander at all and only play competitive formats like standard and legacy. CEDH has a ton of issues because it uses the same banlist and the same rules as every other game of commander, when they should be treated as entirely different things. Super-staples have to be addressed to make the format competitively engaging.
@@JohnFromAccounting I def understand ur point, but as a long time legacy (2011-2017) and modern (2017-hogaak winter) player, I think cedh makes for interesting and dynamic games. I would describe modern the way u have described cedh. Too many super staples and etc. Neither opinion is inherently correct but I'm open to enjoying modern so I hope your at least open to idea of enjoying cedh
@@curtisfarley6558 This is so weird because I've literally heard modern players complain about bowmasters, TOR, fury, grief, etc. for months and months on end and it only stops when some of these cards get banned. Should all modern players who hate these unbalanced cards also "take the L and learn more about the game and try to get better?". Genuinely, where do you draw the line between "this card is wildly unbalanced and shouldn't be legal in the format" and "simply git gud"? If you think all complaints can be resolved with the latter, then you should also take issue with every mtg format with a banlist ever.
@@PrincetteScarecrow not the same situation bud. You are comparing tournament magic players and their opinion on the format and ban worthy cards, to casuals who don't even understand the steps and phases of the game they play. If cedh had a seperate ban list (I agree that it does need one), these kinds of players would still complain about losing without any self reflection. Their expectations aren't tempered to their experience and they will blame anything but themselves. This isn't all casual players, of course, but it is a phenomenon of commander, none the less.
Great video and I can relate perfectly 👍
This is why I play Magda Land Destruction at my LGS. I pulled a 60% win rate and warped the meta so much that people built mono-coloured decks with basic lands, because I wouldn’t blow up basics.
Something also worth mentioning about cEDH is that it’s a terrible tournament format, logistically. The time limits on matches make certain strategies and cards less viable. Decks that might be able to lock in the win but fail to actually win within 90 minutes will just cause a draw for the table. This means that only specific archetypes (UBx decks with tutors and compact combos) are equipped to really play a tournament.
For anyone who's interested in cEDH, I'd highly recommend Comedian mtg's channel. He does a lot of meta breakdowns and tournament reports which can give you a lot of insight into the format.
For me, the homogony of the cEDH format is the largest driving factor is why i stay away from it. I did similar things to you, except i simply looked at top 50 cEDH lists and saw how many cards in these lists are considerred "staples" and had no meaningful interaction with the rest of the deck. Generally, over 60% of non-lands fell into this category. This kind of gameplay is uninteresting and samey and you saw that in just a dozen games. casual edh needs a regulated way to grade power level and it will be the best format in the game, bar none.
Cedh flaws:
1.) edh is the only casual format, why make it competitive when every other format exists for that?
2.) cedh is expensive or you’re forced to proxy. Some ppl dont wanna proxy or play with cards above a certain price tag.
3.) cedh decks are basically cookie cutter builds; very rare you see an interesting 99 as everyone has the same fast mana at the bare minimum or just copy paste net deck.
4.) cedh has boring wincons usually revolving around the same degenerate cards. Demonic consult, thassa, dockside, ad nauseum, etc. nothing unique or creative about it.
The only thing cedh is good for is eliminating rule zero as everyone is playing busted win on the spot decks.
Id rather ppl have a precon on them and whatever non cedh decks they want, and if the power too high we play precons.
When i used alot of edh (5ish years ago), i played both casual and cedh, and you some great point, cedh isnt for everyone, its very cut throat, but that can be seen as an upside, like you said, your playing to win and everyone has that understanding so it makes for (imo) an overall better play experience.
When the guy who plays Jace spoke, I thought about my sans green deck, but not UFarm.
I play Bjorna/Wernog, and I found that is my fav deck to play in cEDH. You are a 4 color-midrange deck that has combos that UFarm doesn't play, so people don't expect you to win via Cloudstone Curio + dockside and your commander. OFC you need thoracle and underworld breach, but I found that winning by drawing your full deck from clues is so much fun
Ah, yes. Clue farm. :D
There's a rule run we had with casual EDH awhile ago, which was a common legacy active ban list. The rules were simple:
After someone plays a card (and pays all cost) a person can declare it is 'too common'. If the card is in at least two other people's decks around the table, the card is removed from play, and those other players' decks, and added to the list. You can't bring it anymore in upcoming games.
If you accused wrongly, you skipped your next turn.
It was started as an idea specifically for this - all of us were happy with proxying cards, but seeing the same deck lists time and time again got dull. Thus, this rule.
Now people are forced into wider and weirder varieties in the game.
As a cedh player, sometimes it hurts when new sets are spoiled and only a few or even none of it can fits in your cedh decks because it doesn’t have the qualities. But fortunately I got my casual group to play those cards. I love commander in general and playing both cedh and casual makes me whole
That cEDH has a more limited card pool is an advantage to the subformat's enthusiasts, and is something that the subformat's intent is angled specifically to encourage. The issue is that this attitude then bleeds both into more casual play and into actual card design, whereby increasing power creep homogenizes the format more than ever before paradoxically at the same time as more cards are being printed into it than ever before.
Rather than being seen as a parallel to 60-card, which aught to be an eternal format curated into separate intended power-level dimensions, Wizards increasingly behaves as if EDH is somehow self-regulating. What you ultimately get then is a rudderless ship which seems impelled towards salt and frustration, outside of cEDH pods - because cEDH has a defined play philosophy. Rather than emulating this success, and laying out separate play philosophies for different levels of power, "Rule 0" has been tossed around as a byword for "we don't really feel like doing anything to cultivate the game's most-popular, most-fragile format."
*I abuse the consistency of the meta by playing cards like 'Mask of the Mimic' and 'Multani's Presence'. "Profit Gnomes" is a legit strategy now lols.*
Great video !!
I play cEDH but my favourite way of playing is high power, which to me is a very soft and fun mix of high efficiency and combos but with sort of janky cards. At least that's how i play it of course.
Other people will say/play high power edh is basically the cedh decks that are not top 20 or something like that.
Loved the video
Another great video! I'm glad Saffron Olive suggested your channel. For cEDH, I wish there would be a point system like canadian highlander, this way we would see a much diverse range of cards. People would have to choose between different fast mana/tutors/constistent win cons, they could not play them all in a good stuff 4 colors partner deck like blue farm! I play mostly casual, but I want to play cEDH as well. It scratches another itch. I hate that a lot of people in my LGSs prefer high power EDH. I'd rather play cEDH than high power, the pre game talk is much faster and it avoids saltiness. When playing casual, I prefer slower more janky style, but its sometimes hard to keep up.
The drawback of a point system is that it increases the impact of draw luck. Whoever draws their "point cards" the earliest is more favoured to win.
It wouldn't work out the way you think. The system will be optimized, always.
Not saying that's bad, but the actual solution remains the same: actual ban list.
I really enjoy the practice of bewing off-meta decks and playing them in cEDH tables. i have some highly competetive players at my store and they simply will-not play against strategies that aren't represented in the top of the meta, which sounds toxic, but it is GOOD because it keeps the format at my store at a good representation of the meta as a whole so I know when I make an off-meta brew and it works well, I'm onto something. This is coming from somebody that plays the spectrum of magic, from limited to casual edh to legacy and modern. I don't think that anybody should limit themselves to just one way to play magic, it's always nice to get out of your comfort zone and try other things, even if you aren't good at them at first (looking at you folks that will never ever play limited because you're nervous)
As someone who's pet card is Counterflux, one day I dream of bringing that to a CEDH table, and seeing everyone's faces when I overload it because the stack is overflowing with cards
One thing I really appreciated about this video? It confirmed to me that all the people on mtgo complaining to me that my 5-7 decks are really CEDH are indeed batshit crazy.
I'm keen for Gruul control!
The reduced salt level is what drew me to cEDH. I have my personal brew that does great against meta decks even after the players against me understand my deck. If you want to brew yes, you're really limited to the best cards... But and this is a big but, some very casual cards turn into amazing competitive cards when they synergize with your commander. My brew is Francisco/Akiri+Lurrus by the way.
I stopped playing commander entirely because my goals and the goals of the people who play in my city are very different, they have this weird idea that tribal decks are inherently balanced, like they don't run interactions or board wipes, and I play a midrange reanimator/clones deck( not clones in clones, but in creating copies of my creatures) and I put a lot of interaction to protect my plays, and now I'm at a crossroads, I can take out the interaction and stuff my deck with board wipes and steam roll everyone, or I can continue to have a lot of games were someone just draws their most efficient creatures and kills everyone, or the beautiful games were everyone bricked and I can't hit anyone because I would be a try hard, it's like I just wanna have a fun and interactive game, and I just can't do that
No one is going to be happy in EDH. The cedh group i used to play in get upset if a player doesn't "play optimally" in the interest of the pod. There was a game where I had Glen Elendra out and I could combo out if I got to untap. The player next to me played a High Tide and I declined the opportunity to counter it with Glen because I wanted to save it to protect my wincon. The next player with priority countered it, and got upset because I didn't use my Glen to stop the High Tide. He was saying that it was my responsibility, and that I was griefing/trolling the table by not playing by cedh standards.
@@Sapreme this is wild, I mean you were playing to win, like you literally made the best decision for you in that situation, and they got mad? Like if you're playing cedh the objective is to win, not help the table, that's a casual mindset, and there's no problem in playing casual, but a table doesn't become competitive just because the cards on it are powerful, I believe that even if everyone is using suboptimal cards that table is still competitive if everyone has the right mentality, it's really cedh in the traditional sense, but anyway what I'm trying to say is that your table appears to hold on to social rules used in casual games, but applying it for competitive decks, which is a weird way to play imo, but you everyone has fun their own way
One of the allures of cedh is the common knowledge, as stated somewhat by the video. You know what to expect, you know the crucial turns, you can make good assumptions of who's life total matters and which players never too attack. This coupled with the fact that your opponents have the same knowledge, makes it so you always need to way your options accordingly. Yes the cardpool is somewhat samey but it's still a 100 card singleton format and the cards are so flexible that games rarely feel simular, with the exception on how they end. Cedh players aren't usually there for how you close the game though but how you get there, which rarely goes according to plan.
As an exclusivity casual player, I ragequit one of my most recent EDH games when one of my opponents started taking half a dozen turns in a row, with a slow deck. I came to the table to play the game, not to watch someone else play solitaire for ten minutes.
These kinds of conversations and aligning of expectations are necessary for a game to be fun.
Great vid. Wouldnt have titled it "the problem with cedh" tho lmao
But the clickbait
I'm a yugioh player that knows a cEDH player. I've had a hard time getting into commander before. He told me that cEDH specifically is very comparable to yugioh in that there are usually wins by turn 2-3, huge response chains and that there's usually no "turn 0" conversation. After watching this video I think he's probably right. There are even card's in your video that are analogous in use to yugioh cards. I'm glad that even with such different games, we can still have similar ideas of fun. I think I'll give cEDH a try
Those who are interested in "budget friendly" commander options that can easily be Cedh, here are some commander option suggestions: Slicer, Hired Muscle; Haldan, Avid Arcanist // Pako, Arcane Retriever; Varragoth, Bloodsky Sire; Old Stickfingers; Anje Falkenrath; Nylea, Keen-Eyed.
Played a game of CEDH where a Kinnan player had a consecrated sphinx turn . A Rowan scion of war player decided to play a wheel of fortune making the kinnan player draw 51 cards. He won the turn after and we laughed, shuffled up and played again. Now I have an orcish bowmasters!
As an 'outsider with some experience' such as yourself, I have a somewhat unique perspective on the whole 'cEDH is a best-case example of rule 0 working' premise. Now, to preface - I abhor rule 0 and feel it is a lazy excuse the RC uses to avoid making rules and a banlist that actually WORKS for the segment of the EDH community that needs it the most: random pick-up games in public. I have long held that the RC's claim that a slim banlist works better for private groups is irrelevant because those private groups both didn't NEED anyone to tell them they could house rule things to their liking and could more easily work down form a more restrictive ruleset than having to build infrastructure for a more restrictive one anyway.
That being said, I posit that cEDH is NOT an example of 'rule 0' working. It is an example of the opposite, in fact: that rule 0 DOES NOT work and the only way to get salt-free games is to toss out the premise entirely and use the rules completely as written and accept everything within as fair game. The problem is, as you pointed out, this means that the options available are limited by the fastest decks and if you cannot present a threat or an answer in time, your strategy is not viable - and the more pressing problem if cEDH grade win conditions showing up outside of tables prepared to respond to them.
The commander banlist is honestly a joke at this point. So many of the cards are just slightly better versions of legal cards in the format already and there are so many cards it would be better off without.
Eyyy I just found trinket mage a few days ago! Great channels guys, awesome stuff!
Off meta cedh is amazing, Play a tier 2 deck that punches up like stax or combat. Its more fun than you think to play your best high power into that meta
The best part about cEDH is that you get to sit at a table where everyone wants to play good cards and win. Don't get me wrong, I've played a kinda slow Enchantress Commander deck for over 10 years at this point as one of my main ones, so I was down for the slower more casual tables for a long time... but these days I prefer to avoid those kinds of games. Prolonging the game needlessly, barely anyone actually playing interactive cards, getting upset at sweepers/counterspells etc. - there's a lot of bad experiences to be had at casual tables that I try to avoid.
when your deck’s premise is to win the game with an infinite combo, it doesn’t actually matter what the combo is. you just win, so the game ends. every infinite combo os identical from a gameplay perspective because you don’t actually get to play once it goes off
Having been playjng cedh for basically forever i get it.
Wooo crossover episode
MtG content creator team up of the decade here
This video got me thinking about whether cEDH would benefit from taking a queue from Canadian Highlander, and making some sort of a points list.
For the unfamiliar, CanLander is a 100 card singleton format, like commander, but it's 1v1 20 life, no commander, and the card pool is the same as in vintage (ie no ban list). Instead, powerful cards are assigned point values by a council, and each deck gets 10 points to spend on cards. So even though Ancestral Recall and Black Lotus are both legal, you can't play them both in the same deck, because Ancestral is 8 points and Lotus is 7.
Implementing a similar system for cEDH might mean that, for example, you could still have Thoracle or Ad Naus be your primary win con, but running those would mean that you don't get to run, say, Sol Ring or Mana Vault.
This would bring the power level down, and the card diversity up, without sacrificing the social benefits of "everyone is going all out" that were mentioned in the video.
Cedh player here - I know it’s discussed in the video but I’d really like to reiterate in the comments how some of the off meta cedh decks can be so fun and incredibly rewarding to play. My pet deck is Tasha the Witch Queen and I dabble with Yennett sometimes. Other decks like Magda, gruul Etali, Ob Nixilis, Malcolm/Kediss etc can all be a ton of fun to play. I’ve been dabbling with an off meta Tymna/Dargo list lately that’s been a good time. A lot of the top decks in the tournament scene do share a lot of cards and can have similar playstyles, 5 color piles are going to have a lot of cards in common after all. However cedh is such a deep format that just looking at top decks isn’t a fully fair view of the format imo. That said, even within the top 10 Kinnan will play INSANELY differently from a blue farm and Dargo/Thrasios plays wildly differently than something like Tivit.
For me and a lot of cedh players, the fun of the format isn’t in card variety or whatever else but in piloting your deck to the best of its ability and navigating complex board states to come out with the win
Just wanted so say I love the format and thanks for giving it a fair shot :)