same dude. Found 9 of em in my shoeboxes full of old commens. Always nice to find cards like Priest of Titania, Rhystic Study, Utopia Sprawl, ... in them boxes ;)
If there's anything I've learned from deckbuilding, it's this: if you think you built your deck up to a 7, it's probably a 5. If you think you built your deck down to a 7, it's probably a 9.
It depends. In the context of this video, you're probably right. I don't fully agree with how the Nerds evaluate the top end as I feel like they lump too much together, though. Whatever the numbers, though, I think the broader point still applies for the average deckbuilder.
Agree 100% My first two years playing magic I told people my decks are 7's actually they were 5's. Now after playing CEDH I went back and built my casual decks to ACTUAL 7's.
@@liamwelsh4665 then you are playing Slivers and need to revaluate how out of control they can get as to others it is going to feel like a 10 to everyone playing 8's and below yet somehow they lose to 9's and above
I think the blurred lines often come from gameplay itself. Sometimes you can have decks with phyrexian arenas and cultivates that fall into 7s due to the deck being incredibly synergistic and fluid. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts
@@NitpickingNerds I don't know, man. Those song lyrics and innuendo walk a wobbling tightrope - precariously fraying at the ends - hundreds of stories above a dark and dreary pit of sexual assault references and allegations. I think Robin Thicke meant well, but the performance with Miley Cyrus at the VMAs... ...murky area. The whole experience seemed a little too on-meta for my playgroup here in Cyrus. Sometimes it feels like we're a jar of spicy mustard being meticulously spatula-ed into a thick creamy layer atop a steaming hot pork sandwich - glistening with shimmering dewdrops of oily lipids under the soft crimson flourescent glow of a strange terrarium's heat lamp. That's life though, man. That's life.
My decks are 5 - 6 just interaction, or synergy and my crazy friends they have Cedh decks, very unfair but they say it's normal, but the power level is too high no fun at all.
Similar to my tiers: 1-2: Memes and Jank 3-4: Precons and Casuals 5-6: High Synergy Decks (no infinite combos) 7-8: Optimized and Infinite Combos 9-10: CEDH
For me it’s 1-2 jumble of cards that technically make a legal deck 3-4 jank/meme deck that may not seek to win but do something else 5 is the power level of all the precons that didn’t come out in 2017 6 is like slightly better precon or a budget deck 7 is an average commander deck with synergies and interaction 8 is a very powerful commander deck (can sorta hold its own against cedh decks) 9-10 are cedh decks
Like 90% of it, I still think cEDH needs 2 slots on the numbers (9 and 10) as there are definitely at least 2 tiers of decks in cEDH. Really like your discussion of numbers 1 through 8. I build solidly in the 5-7 range 9 times out of 10, would like to push them into the 6-8 over time.
I remember a few years ago when I first got into commander I built a niv-mizzet the firemind I opened from a masters 25 pack and won with the curiosity combo that I had accidentally put in the deck without realizing the combo
What I have noticed is that tutors are really what start to power decks up in the 9-10 range. You could play combos and card draw engines but still be at a 7, but when you throw tutors in the deck it jumps you up quick.
You could also have demonic tutor in your deck but your combos are so janky it’s still considered a 5. This power scale based on “generalized decks” are janky. You can scale cards, but not so easily decks.
My friend's first intro to magic was with our extra commander decks. Watching him make a deck was so fun. He didn't come from standard so him putting his first deck together was so pure and fun. Every card seemed like the best card ever to him. We ended up giving him spare staples and cohesive cards we had but he had so much fun just playing a 1 or 2 it was still great
My introduction to Magic, my friends took me to a shop and helped me buy my first cards. Told me the basics and I put together some jank. They stomped me into the ground without mercy, they put down Eldrazi and optimized beat down or control decks... Eventually, through the crucible of fire, it molded me into an extremely oppressive, but flexible control style in which I was obsessed with having answers and protecting my creatures... fun times.
Kitchen table commander is the best commander. It's your basic battlecruiser format where everyone is playing their pet cards they like, and nobody has to sit down knowing "okay, Nate over there has 10 win cons that he can rip off with no warning, so we need to suppress him." Yes, I"m an old, boring geezer, but I liked commander before the precons.
This was helpful. I thought my decks wer around 8 but there closer to 6 and 7. It seems like 8 and higher is basically 60 card decks, no variety same hand every game
I play my best deck with a group every weekend, and I've won 3 times like outa 50 cause they always play level 9s & 10s however I always show, cause it's so fun
Restricting CDH to only 10's gives so much desperately needed room to the casual decks on the scale and I think the 4 levels (6-9) for casual decks better than precons seems pretty appropriate based on my own decks.
I would say mine would fit around the 6-8 levels depending on what's available. I rarely buy new singles unless its for the base of an archetype. Lots of times, I like throwing in some uncommonly used cards and meta-dependent in specific playgroups.
It’s nice to have some kind of a description for each deck level since no one seemed to give a decent scale before with each level described and would basically say “if it’s below a 6 then it’s not really commander”
@@NitpickingNerds There's a couple games I have seen in cedh where combat damage put in massive amounts of work, specifically with the black/white partner, or to counter black decks. Generally combat *wins*, though, I agree.
In the spirit of really fun 5-power decks, I made a Moritte of the Frost deck that was just reasonable draw, reasonable card draw, and then basically every clone effect in existence. I run Vesuva and Thespian’s Stage, but nothing exciting to copy. I never have any idea what I’m playing, since it’s entirely just cloning everybody else’s boards.
Only decks I want to make these days include not playing my own deck. 1. Clone effects 2. Red betrayal effects 3. Gonti/Etali type effects 4. Combat tricks, but only used on opponent creatures 5. Goad 6. Copy tribal, but copy only opponent spells
@@hexx_4093 might I recommend Jon Irenicus, Shattered One It involves forcing others to play your deck, and then just giving them the worst or most punishing cards you can Toss in a siphon insight and rogue class so you can steal stuff in the interim Edit: it also falls under your goad category
@@nordin.munteanu that's kind of the joke they're getting at here. If yes, it more than likely means the group is cEDH because in cedh cards that are far too situational for more casual games can be very useful in games that are usually having a potential win threat come in around turn 3-4.
I liked how you mentioned that super high power level decks can still lose to low power decks cause they are so different. There’s a card I love, Cursed Totem, turns off mana dorks and activated abilities of creatures requiring a cost, it can hose a lot of decks, but may do absolutely nothing against some decks.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 If people wanted to use the grave in cEDH they would use it as makeshift tutors as in virtual card advantage by returning stuff to the hand after putting it there from the deck. But unless you can break something like a Phage the Untouchable there is really no reason to make a cEDH deck based around the grave till they make a 5 color commander that interacts with the graveyard so Graveborn would actually be viable. And Phage is just a hypothesis like i know you can build a deck around that as a 9 but i am not sure you could make it a 10 and no one really wants to build gimmicks unless its Stax for some reason as people sure love their prison decks instead of using Stax like cards to make a 8 or 9 able to keep up with 10's and have a great chance to win with their win con.
After playing both for a little bit, one of the biggest differences between Yugioh and Magic (in relation to attitude) is that EVERYONE in Yugioh plays with a CEDH mentality. Winning is first and foremost for 98% of players, then you choose your deck based on what can actually potentially win within your price range. I remembered being kind of baffled by the hate for tutors because they're just so absurdly common in Yugioh. Even with 40 card decks being the norm, pretty much every deck has at least 1 built-in tutor (with 3 being common) as well as 15 cards you have access to 100% of the time. _Many of which being tutors._ You'll absolutely be seeing a lot of the same combos every game, but only in the first couple turns. After which the disruption, board breaking, and grind game makes each game feel different.
Well yeah but yugioh only has the 1v1 format, and it's 💯 percent about winning in 1v1 magic too. But commander is such a unique beast, where it's supposed to be about having fun first and winning second
Not always, My. Friend and I have old school decks (no links no modern acrhtypes etc). Some fun throwback games are possible! Especially in paper, with masterduel you can build optimal meta deck and play on ladders but not enough yuigoh players in my town to justify building perfect decks.
@@NitpickingNerds Imagine my surprise when I looked at what a Palinchron now goes for after tossing that thing around without a sleeve all those years ago. Can I get a time machine to have my teenage self invest big into Urza's block?
I think you made a great point with the "CEDH format" being misinterpreted in title. I think CEDH meta is a better term, that more fully represents what is actually happening at that level.
One year ago or smthing i buyd an obuun precon and it was so interresting to see it developing from an 4 to maybe an 8 now it is an omnath deck with shock and fetchlands and cards like cyclonic rift
@@NitpickingNerds honestly ive tried to play a few of these and they caaaaaan win but its more for flavor or fun. I build a 50 dollar beckett brass deck and it just beat the shit out of people and steals all of those juicy permenants
@@NitpickingNerds I’ve been needing help with optimizing my $50 budget deck for Scorpion God. My lgs has a competitive budget commander league, and the meta there is voltron and going wide with creature spam and combat damage. Every time I control the board when things get out of control, and draw cards to keep my engine going, I often end up getting 3 v 1ed and idk what I’m doing wrong
Don't think you remember me from the Discord before I left, but my flaw, is I want to get cards from as many mechanics from magic's history as I can... so I'm stuck at level 5 for power
I tend not to worry about the power level of decks. I just enjoy building around a theme usually or an off meta tribal. Example being, I am planning to build warlock tribal once Strixhaven is a bit more obtainable. I want to do a food theme deck with the new chef Commander as well. Should be fun. :)
Im thinkin mine sit between 6 and 10. I'll optimize a precon, then use whats leftover from it and my trade binder cards to build a second deck with it.
Will never be a 10 or even close to a 9 then. Those are CEDH with highly optimized decks, multiple tutors, the best fast mana and ramp, usually doesnt cost less than 1k
Nice job guys. I think this scale has a lot of context for the qualitative aspect of EDH deck building that a quantitative scale can't really grasp. Additionally, the perspective of knowing your deck's power level so that you don't hurt other's M:tG experience rather than focusing on knowing power level so that you can win every game is a really refreshing.
We built a power level 1 when I started in 1995. Me and my friend took our 300 cards shuffled them together and we each got half. Sometimes we had no way to play certain spells because one of us would have Deep Spawn but the other had all the islands in their deck. Good times.
This frustrates me. Whenever casual edh youtubers create their power scales, they always consolidate the entirety of cedh into the 10-spot. There's current meta cedh, "brewer's corner" cedh, budget cedh, and "old meta" cedh, with shades between. Those variations should not be carelessly segregated from commander at-large. A Teferi-Chain Veil deck from 5 years ago would smash your vision of 9-power, while getting soundly beaten by current meta or brewer's corner decks. No one intentionally builds 1-4 power decks. These channels exist to prevent people from building them. I've always advocated for a 5-point scale. 5 being current meta cedh, 4 being casual/older cedh, 3 as focused casual, 2 as casual-casual and upgraded precons, with 1 being non-upgraded precons or Vorthos/art-themed decks. Other than budget, intent should be the determining factor.
@The Nitpicking Nerds. You said something at around 27:33 that bugs me...You said that often times, a cEDH deck will combo off on turn 3 and nobody gets to have fun. This is true only when one player is running a CEDH deck while everyone else is running a casual deck thus leading to a game of solitaire. This leaves a bad taste in the mouth of everybody else as nobody else will get to do stuff and People like to do stuff in commander. However, If everyone at the table is running a cEDH deck; then because of the race to win-thus leading to a high-octane excitement-as well as plenty of interaction and stuff happening. Yes, cEDH decks end the game 60% of the time on turn 4 to 5. But a lot more action happens within those turns, from every player, than in the same time-span with casual decks playing. In summation, I would like to conclude that enjoyment of MTG is not as a result of the duration of the game but more as a result of the relevance of the player within that game. So if you play a game in which somebody manages to end the game on turn 2 but a lot happened within those two turns. Then the game, however ephemeral, may have been considered enjoyable
Hey, I really appreciate the work you guys put into your videos. The dynamic and fluidness of discussion is very natural and you cover a lot of ground with the seer amount of content you make.. I started magic 3 months ago and I'm already competing with my friends well established decks. Thanks a lot!
Really great video!!, Wondering where your powered up precon builds from the years past fall on your scale? I own several perfectly tuned by you guys and love them dearly.
Thanks, probably what I thought based on empirical data.... The thing that nobody talks about with power level is is your commanders plan a relevant win condition. It may just say it's going to do this cool thing once and that is not win the game focused.
That one player be like (My first deck was a easy 7 my second deck was also a 7 and my current most recent deck is a 7) correction every player be like
Great content and examples, as always, gentlemen. I really enjoyed the descriptions of what makes a "5". Great things to use as examples for newer players. Love it!
Today I learned that Rhystic study is a casual EDH staple that is in every lvl5 deck. Today I also learned that I'm broke cuz I have 0 decks with that card because of $ :D
26:00 I actually got to experience that once. Someone brought their cedh deck, and we played a few rounds, of which I only won one of because he scooped after I was able to consistently interact until turn 5. I was playing a Niv-Mizzett, the Firemind deck (built around draw and burn into Isochron scepter and dramatic reversal), which was probably a 6 on this scale. Can't remember their commander, but their main wincon involved going infinite with Kiki-Jiki, had a ton of expensive fast mana, and consistently won by turn 4.
Yeah it depends a lot on which cEDH deck you play against. A ton of them run like 20-30% cards that are dead draws vs. power 5-6 decks. And if their combo is countered, it takes longer to recover. But I also think that some decks like Rog-Silas or Codie are practically impossible for a lower power deck to beat as they consistently win on ~t2. t4 is considered mid-range to slow in the cEDH format.
This is actually a really comprehensive guide! I expected it to be another one of those vague ones that just says like numbers and then a couple descriptors, but this is super simple to use! I think the 2 main decks I have are probably both around 6-7 which is surprising because of how differently they function. One of them is a Mazirek persist combo deck but with 2 tutors and not very many persist cards to get the win, and the other is a najeela warrior tribal deck, which function super different but are both around a similar power which is interesting to me!
So power lvl 7 is that when people play like fierce guradianship and other free counterspells? was playing a mono black Vito deck against the rhino that blinks and this dude just fierce gurdianships my one spell, and blew up mana rocks with his knight of autumn, maybe my vito deck is more of a 5 or 6 or maybe the other dude misjudged his deck to be a 7? he was very syngergistic and always had a play going and as soon as the rhino came out he flickered stuff to make treasures, destroyed every mana rock that hit the field etc. is this what 7 is like? then i wanna go back to PL 6 lol
Fierce Guardianship is a staple card for Power 10 decks but it really depends on what the rest of his deck is doing. If he's wasting time destroying mana rocks, it sounds like he has a power 6-7~ish durdle deck overall.
www.moxfield.com/decks/So6zgtNwUUuzQKKz9R3b7Q Here's my Tasigur deck. This a 10 and I'm excepting no further questions. The primer is outdated cause it's no longer a hermit druid deck.
It's so hard discussing rule 0 with my orvar deck. "Whats your win condition?". "I don't have any dedicated win cons, but everything is a win con in this deck.".
when you mentioned the whole "50 rhystic studies from playing in the 80s" thing it reminded me that a friend in my playgroup who has been playing forever used to have like multiple playsets of things like dual lands, force of wills, etc. but they sold them a long time ago. So unfortunate since they wouldve had like tens of thousands of dollars.
This is inaccurate as hell. I dont mean that in a rude way, just that it undersells the complexity. Combat damage exists at the very peak of 10.0 Additionally, full blown cEDH starts at 8. Not "Full tutors"(plenty are unplayable/its better to run other cards tbfh), fully attempting to win. The flavor is in building the deck and then executing the best plan possible with different commanders with the sole intent of victory. We have "Wincon Packages", 2 card wincons and 1 card wincons. Hermit Druid is a 1 card wincon, but its slow. Play Hermy, wait a full turncycle with a clenched buttocks, pay a green mana and basically win by recurring thor on upkeep to draw it for the win. Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle is an example of a 2 card wincon. There is also a "Zero Card Wincon" decklist: Godo. Count to 11, 10 fingers and one raging- uh,yeah you cast him and he finds helm and you equip helm of the host to him (6 for godo,5 to equip) with a ton of ways to cheat on cost (can be as little as 4 mana to win in that deck). This powerlevel list is okay if you look at it through the lense of social interactions. "Are you pushing your commander's mechanics limits?" is a full on different agenda from "Are you trying to play and win as efficiently as possible?" That powerlevel cutoff is around 6 opposed to 8. Yeah. 6. 7 is the gradient where rogue not quite cEDH lists, and decks on their way to becoming cEDH or decks that have a capped powerlevel and arent quite good enough (Daretti, for example, is like 2 or 3 cards off of becoming an 8, so 7 purgatory it is). Pilot skill is huge, but can only realistically account for around half of a ... powerlevel point? Whatever. Basically a 5 that someone has candcrafted with a shitload of experience and knows the exact purpose of each card can make that list about a 5.5, though the gradient is obviously a lot more complicated than 1.0 to 10.0. I think of powerlevel as a giant long line, a band of every color. Different goals at different spots of the scale. Each deck is slightly different in powerlevel from each other deck, unless they contain the exact same cards, obviously. Achieving your decklists goal being the driving force should start around 4. Everything prior to that should include jank and "I threw cards together in a pile, is 10 lands enough? Idk" at about 0.1 I should also clarify that 0.0 and 10.0 lists do not exist and cannot exist. There is definitely a best and worst deck, but that implies perfection and just being an illegal deck all together.
9.9s include: Flash Hulk. Skill independant. OP. Codie Tutors for Naus, the next boogeyman (insanely fast and consistent, likes to win turn 2 regularly, with protection backup), had a tournament where only the people piloting this deck got to the finals pod. And like one person that didnt get stomped by Codie. Id say that list was about a 9.7 with pilot skill. "Top Tier" and "10s" are actually just 9.0 to 9.7, as FH is exponentially better than Codie, and Codie is so good that a meta shift had to occur to counter it, the other option was to just join them and flip a 1d4 instead of playing the game. Codie was able to be stopped. FH was not. Everything else, from ThOr to BreachFreeze to Hermit to Polymorph to whatever else, those have counters. They can be stopped. They cannot be counterspells to other wincons after everyone blows interaction. Counterspells that read "Actually I win" may exist in 2070, but we had it, in a form, for awhile lol.
@@crazykhespar8487 Flash Hulk is definitely skill dependent. Sure, there will be some games where players didn't draw interaction and you win t0 (of course referring to pre-flash ban - but the same thing applies to ad-naus and consult-oracle lines that people play now). But skilful and knowledgeable players will be aggressively taking mulligans for t0 interaction when the see tymna-thrasios in the pod etc. This is why almost all cEDH tournaments are won by highly skilled pilots.
I think you are under-rating some of the preCons. Some of them get to a 6, while some are a 4, but the recent UG deck out of vox plays like a strong 5 or low 6
The landfall one :)? I picked up that one for my first deck. The Aesi sea serpent or w.e. Was blown away at the power level of the cards! And then to find out they arent even that good blew me away. Ive got quite the collection to build.
I guess my decks are as following. [Assumed Power Level] - Commander (Notable cards) A) [8] - "Anowon the Ruin Thief (Cyclonic Rift, Chrome Mox, Varragoth Bloodsky Sire, Rankle Master of Pranks, Scheming Symmetry, Notorious Thong, Maddening Cacophony, many unblockable Rogues) B) [7.5] - "Wyleth, Soul of Steel" (Sword of Body and Mind, Argentum Armor, Stonehewer Giant, Darksteel Plate, Grafted Exoskeleton, Spectra Ward, Sunforger, many free equip stuff) C) [7] - "Gisela, Blade of Goldnight" [Heartless Hidetsugu, Pyrohemia, Fiery Emancipation, Runed Halo, Chandra Torch of Defiance, many burn and white selective protection) D) [7] "Volrath, the Shapestealer" (Inexorable Tide, Black Sun's Zenith, Necroskitter, many Shapeshifter, Loyal Guardian, Blighted Agent, Myojin of Night's Reach)
A lot of people find that 6's and 7's are the sweet spot for them however people that don't really have much time to spare would play high power EDH up to 9 that way they can at least get in a good amount of games especially if they don't see each other for 3 weeks at a time
When do you start adding things like fetches, shocks, triomes, demonic & vamp tutors? Would they be ok in a 7? I figure actual dual lands and higher end cards like wheel of fortune would be closer to power 9.
Cards aren't on any powerlevel. Are you playing tutors and good lands in your dudes with moustaches deck? That does not make ot powerful, but does make you look for the moustaches you like. If you make a focused deck but run mostly basics you can still make a very powerful deck but other might need to be made for mana fixing.
Really depends on the rest of your deck because strong cards often synergise with each other exponentially. You could put fetches and shocks into a power 5 deck if the rest of it is jank as that would only reduce the probability of mana screw. Tutors are only strong if your deck has 2 card insta-win combos. Wheel of fortune is only strong in niche archetypes like Nekusar or Storm variants. And on the other end of the scale, you have decks like a $100 budget cEDH Yuriko which is probably ~power 9 despite playing no tutors and mostly basics.
If that your dream to do pod cast magic you are so lucky guy to do on full time job 👍👍👍very happy for you good job continu your video is amazing but i miss deck tech and doc deck
My decks are hard to rank because we stopped purchasing new cards nearly a decade ago (with a few one offs). We were getting fed up with the Power Creep and put a stop to it by not buying new cards. Because of that, my , decks are built with older cards that are comparatively underpowered, however they are optimized as much as possible. My best deck is built around Angel's Trumpet and contains both a ton of ramp and creatures that are good on both offense and defense, like Basilisks, Cockatrice, Frostbeast, and Wiitigo. It is not the most powerful, but it IS fast and efficient. The deck I have the hardest job assigning a power ranking is a deck I built FEATURING Sorrow's Path (Yes, one of the worst cards in the history of Magic). This deck is so optimized, it has both a high winning percentage (among our group) and everyone does whatever they can to keep the Path OFF the board. I might even spend $4 to get Stuffy Doll and Spitemare to further enhance the deck.
Because a deck that is an 8 can still play with a table of 6's I find that using 4 groups works the best. I don't use numbers but instead questions.. I think this system makes more sense because everyone thinks that their deck is more powerful than it is, 1. Janky cards I own and wanted to try 2. I tried to make this deck good and bought a few cards. Or used Edhrec. 3. I have been building and testing this deck and it's roughly about as Optimized as I can make it. 4. Cedh. What's nice is you can say I am at the high end of question 2, but not gameknights strong. Or maybe the high or low end of q3, almost cedh, or I optimized the deck but still need to test more and my win rate isn't what I had hoped. But like I said I just ask the question instead of asking for a number that varies from person to person
THE BEST POWER RANKING 1-2: janky piles 3-4: precon 5-6: fun synergies 7-8: well built synergistic decks that have a clear game plan and win con 9: for the most part optimized and fast, but not built to ideally win on a specific early turn every game 10: cEDH, taking full 100% advantage of every legal commander card regardless of price. not focused on playing into synergies, every slot is perfect, zero room for pet cards
All of my decks and some guessed power levels: Averna, the Chaos Bloom - 4 (Cascade/llandfall) Bruna, the Fading Light - 6 (Angel/Reanimator) Bruvac the Grandiloquent - 6 (Mill/control) Hapatra, Vizier of Poison - 7 (-1/-1, tokens) Kadeena, Slinking Sorcerer - 6 (Morph) Kodama of the Center Tree - 3 (Soulshift?!) Krark, the Thumbless / Sakashima of a Thousand Faces - 8 (Spellslinger, Would be a 9 but I left a couple other coinflips) Queen Marchesa, Long may she reign - 5 (Treasure/Monarch) Tinybones, Trinket Thief - 6 (Discard)
I enjoyed the video, I'd like to rectify the way cEDH ("The 10") is reperesented here. I'd say that the big jump between the high power casual and the cEDH section is the viabilitiy of commanders. You're clearly exaggerating the how many commanders there are - you said 20, but the database has around 170 decks right now - but some a lot of commanders just don't do enough. The emphasis is on the commander either being a massive card advantage outlet (Tymna; Thrassios; Kess; Tatyova; Kraum...) or a combo outlet (Ukkima for Sultai Food Chain; Heliod for Heliod Ballista Stax) or both (stupid Kinnan). In high power you can get pretty much anything to work still, in cEDH that's just not the case anymore.
the way i see it, there are four types of commander decks. Battlecruiser, Casual, High Power, and Competitive. Battlecruiser; you draw a card, maybe you do a thing. No one wants to board wipe because doing so restarts the game. Casual; more or less multiplayer solitaire, someone ends up being the "alpha" at the table but only able to eliminate one other player. Combos, if any, are like four or more different cards that loop. High Power; Everyone's "playing to win" but no one's optimized to actually do it that quickly. Each deck is lacking in some capacity. Competitive; All about playing to win, and ideally fast. Many different strategies.
In my Opinion Power Level 9 is also cEDH. Every Level 9 Deck ive faced until now is also just built to win. No Real Flavors or Themes, more exactly what you said. The Person wants to win and looks online what the best decks are. the only difference to Level 10 here is that they dont see spending 250€ for a single Card so they maybe leave the best 7-8 Cards from the Level 10 Deck out but thats it.. the rest are the exact same Cards and the Cards he/she has in there instead of the 250€ Haymaker is maybe a 50€ Haymaker... So yeah Level 9-10 are both cEDH for Me and my Play Group. We mostly try to keep the Power Level around 6-7.
yeah, pretty much all my decks are power 6. I am super casual though, so i like where i am. Actually, i might have a 5 (Zaffai, Thunder Conductor, modified precon. It's slow in the beginning, but it has its wild turns that, like getting 20 elementals right after a boardwipe) and one that i'm not entierly sure if it's 5 or 6 (Zurzoth, Chaos Rider. Devils go "boom", yayy)
Commander is a learning game as much as it's a whale'$ pay-to-win. Thalia was that way because when I first built her I just threw all my 'meh...okay' stuff in with things I pulled like Grasp of Fate for example when I drafted it in a Mystery Booster and didn't realize how good it was (such a rookie!) but Thalia has adjusted as I found that the Heliod I tossed in to have a beater and counter engine actually had a few synergies with Thalia taxing my foes while using an Anngelic Exaltation to turn the Commander Damage she deals from 2 to like 15 unequiped with first strike so anything that blocked was also removed which in turn also cut the need to rely on tapped creature removal as much as Thalia just taxed them too high and they were meant to be played mid to early game. I also learned that I had to time when I cast her because if I waited I lost some momentum to aggro decks but in fact could use her politically. "What will you give me to NOT cast Thalia this turn?" Especially when i dropped in Emergence Zone. Then I looked at how my life total once went to like 180 just from a simple Heliod combo and decided to add 2 Life Gain Wincons for about 30$ and buffed her up from "Jank Commander who gets me killed" to "Weapon Commander whose placement can cause my enemies despair. and it's awesome she was just a 7$ investment on Amazon to boot so I wouldn't just have to play my Chullane Precon. I think that's part of the fun using a 'low tier' deck. The evolution from jank to tank. Though some are more of a puzzle than others. Take my Chullane Precon. I've broke it down, added a Soulherder and Thassa ((Theroes Beyond Death edition) to the deck to make ETB really fun and awesome for some Token Generation but I find it doesn't really win games. Same with Pella my little Dwarf Commander who has given me a home for all my vehicles from Kaladesh and Kaldhiem but again other than praying nobody board wipes my artifacts long enough to get Armed and Armored out and swing for game is not much of wincon. Though isn't that the trap of it? Wincons. Winning is nice but I think sometimes we forget Commander is a format for fun unless you're doing CEDH tournaments. It's why no matter what power level my deck is I always take a fun deck. In fact if I take a really nasty CEDH deck I've been tuning I always bring something that's got no hope of winning but is fun for cosplay. Twofold reasons- 1: Aftercare. It can be brutal when you murder a group of friends with you Commander deck. 2: There's almost always a follow up game and it's nice to have something to shift gears down with for yourself/test in the moment and get some advice on.
I am bad at deck building. Seems like I'm always rushing to put the best possible cards in the deck, yet it still gets out performed by a simple pre-con deck. Case in point, simply having good cards doesn't not a good make. One of my current decks is Goreclaw. I'm not running Eldrazi because I don't want to be a try hard with annihilator. But rushing my commander and then rushing out some big mono green beaters is cool. The deck can apply a lot of pressure pretty easily, but no matter what adjustments I make, the deck just doesn't win. The table doesn't like seeing one deck drop big creatures that can murder a player. So the table always teams up to neuter my board, then one of those 3 players will combo off suddenly and win. Maybe this is only true for "casual" players, but people tend to get very intimidated by creatures with big stat lines. I drop a Terastadon and the table is scared. Even though it can be chump blocked just fine. Sure with my commander it will have trample, but on it's own in a vacuum it has nothing else. I'm currently testing out some additional combat trick cards like "Berserk" and "Overwhelming Stampede". Perhaps getting some surprise alpha strike damage can help seal the deal. If I were in red as well, I could use additional combat phase cards and actually have a combo win potential as well. Oh well. I just think that a win that revolves around big stompy creatures is probably the hardest way to win. It's a simple tactic to pilot, but it stands out far more than a few small combo pieces. I would assume my Goreclaw deck is a 5 or 6 at most. In terms of your rules, it should be a 5 at least, but..... The deck I'm currently building is Tasha the Witch Queen. The deck has powerful effects as you all know. But it's main hinderance is it's annoying higher CMC curve. So while the deck can do a wide range of different things compared to the narrow combat damage only, it also probably isn't anything more than a 5 or 6. I'm also working with Prossh. But again, unless I'm rushing the Food Chain combo, the deck doesn't stand out as super strong. Token spam, sure fine whatever. All my decks have good cards and staples in them, but just doesn't seem to matter.
As a cEDH degenerate, I understand the sentiment of "you're only playing the most expensive cards if they're the best cards." I think mine is a 9.5 in that I'm only really missing true dual lands in terms of optimization but if you're running 3 colors and not running adNaus the extra 2 life to shock is insignificant. As you said, you're looking to win on turn 1 if possible, 3 at the latest.
My friends has not 1, not 2, not THREE but 4 decks that are over 90 lands. Ashling Pilgrim, Sen Triplets, The first sliver (cascade into the blue Epic spell), and Maralen of the Mornsong. He's not a bad deck builder at all, but these are definitely 2 or maybe a 3 by your criteria, lol
1-3 Garbage. 4 Precon - 5-6 Optimized/upgraded precon. 7-8 Highly optimized with near perfect land bases and some tutors - 9-10 CEDH. 6-7.5 is the prime time play table of EDH.
I feel like this was a video you didn't want to make and you didn't try very hard like @ power level 3. People have fun in different ways and I feel this video doesn't do well to highlight that. I also believe the most important factor to determine how Competitive a deck is will focus on how quickly the deck can win, minus the Oracle combo it's just stupid. Redundancy for quicker wins is the goal of your 9-10. Maybe a Special Guest for a part 2? King Cash or someone? Just a thought
The horror when I just realised I might be a try-hard. I have never been a competive person and I would never want to compromise the fun of a game to win... but part of the fun for me is deck-building. I enjoy optimising in my spare time. Looking now, my decks are all like Power-level 8... I live in a little town and my LGS has mostly Power-level 4 to 7. ... I need to get around to building some of my sillier deck ideas so I don't feel so nasty.
Speaking of 10s losing to low ranks, that applies to loads of games. Like, I'm a master rank pokemon player (the video game, not the tcg), yet I've lost games to rank 1s, probably kids, because they are so unpredictable and do things that don't make sense, lol. All in all, if I played such an opponent back to back to back, I'd come out on top, but being top tier doesn't mean a 100% win streak.
![ลองสั่งของจากแอพ temu ถูกจริงหรอ?? [โกงไหมครับ ep.88 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RTcZSQTiDZw/mqdefault.jpg)
you could do a series like "rank my EDH deck", let supporters submit a deck and talk about it, it's power level and what could be improved.
But I forgot to say, I love the content. Just you two talking about EDH is very interesting!
I love this idea
I would submit my sisay superfriends!
Bruh, that's a really good idea
That is a great idea!
This video is a solid 7/10. It could be more optimized, but it's the perfect level for fun
Well crafted joke, I’ll give it a 7/10
@@NitpickingNerds Your comment was solid, but more effort could have been put into it. I give it uuuuuuuuuuuh 7/10. You guys rock.
@@krisdaschwab912 I could give you lower score but I'll let it slide today 7/10
@@s1y_guy928 An interesting approach, could have been executed better I'll give a 7/10.
7/10 = perfect lmao!
I had about 20 rhystic studies from back in the day when I got back into magic a few years ago. Was pleased to see a common worth so much!
Wow you are literally that hypothetical guy we were talking about
@@NitpickingNerds Me too! Found an old plastic bag with Magic cards in the attic and it had 10 Rhystic Studies, one of them foil ^^ Now I have 14
same dude. Found 9 of em in my shoeboxes full of old commens. Always nice to find cards like Priest of Titania, Rhystic Study, Utopia Sprawl, ... in them boxes ;)
@@theeternallysurprised lol. The 11 you had wasn't enough 😂
to quote a very handsome man from yesterday, "Power level 1 decks have Grave Titan in them"
Which one?
I think it was me (Beezy)
A jajaja
I personally like grave titan bet ok
All I want in life is a signed grave titan by nitpicking nerds
We have sent out a few of those at this point!
If there's anything I've learned from deckbuilding, it's this: if you think you built your deck up to a 7, it's probably a 5. If you think you built your deck down to a 7, it's probably a 9.
eh, probably 8. 9 is fully optimized off meta decks or mostly optimized meta decks
It depends. In the context of this video, you're probably right. I don't fully agree with how the Nerds evaluate the top end as I feel like they lump too much together, though. Whatever the numbers, though, I think the broader point still applies for the average deckbuilder.
What if I think it’s a 4 at best?
Agree 100%
My first two years playing magic I told people my decks are 7's actually they were 5's.
Now after playing CEDH I went back and built my casual decks to ACTUAL 7's.
@@liamwelsh4665 then you are playing Slivers and need to revaluate how out of control they can get as to others it is going to feel like a 10 to everyone playing 8's and below yet somehow they lose to 9's and above
I think the blurred lines often come from gameplay itself. Sometimes you can have decks with phyrexian arenas and cultivates that fall into 7s due to the deck being incredibly synergistic and fluid. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts
The lines will always be blurred
those get played on game knights a decent amount
@@NitpickingNerds I don't know, man.
Those song lyrics and innuendo walk a wobbling tightrope - precariously fraying at the ends - hundreds of stories above a dark and dreary pit of sexual assault references and allegations.
I think Robin Thicke meant well, but the performance with Miley Cyrus at the VMAs... ...murky area.
The whole experience seemed a little too on-meta for my playgroup here in Cyrus.
Sometimes it feels like we're a jar of spicy mustard being meticulously spatula-ed into a thick creamy layer atop a steaming hot pork sandwich - glistening with shimmering dewdrops of oily lipids under the soft crimson flourescent glow of a strange terrarium's heat lamp.
That's life though, man. That's life.
@@notbot4525 I have no idea what just happened
@@notbot4525 …so many words without making any sense..
My rankings for decks
1-2: Jank
3-4: Precon
5-6: Synergy or Interaction
7-8: Synergy and Interaction
9-10: CEDH
My decks are 5 - 6 just interaction, or synergy and my crazy friends they have Cedh decks, very unfair but they say it's normal, but the power level is too high no fun at all.
Similar to my tiers:
1-2: Memes and Jank
3-4: Precons and Casuals
5-6: High Synergy Decks (no infinite combos)
7-8: Optimized and Infinite Combos
9-10: CEDH
id argue that some precons with a small 20 to 30 dollar upgrade would be a 7-8
@@joshandrews515 I agree that changes to a precon can make a difference but thats because you are adding Synergy and Synergy changes score.
For me it’s
1-2 jumble of cards that technically make a legal deck
3-4 jank/meme deck that may not seek to win but do something else
5 is the power level of all the precons that didn’t come out in 2017
6 is like slightly better precon or a budget deck
7 is an average commander deck with synergies and interaction
8 is a very powerful commander deck (can sorta hold its own against cedh decks)
9-10 are cedh decks
Most of mine fall between 5 to 8 range.
The hard part about rating a deck that's custom built is you have to know how to pilot that deck
95% of decks fall between 5 to 8
Like 90% of it, I still think cEDH needs 2 slots on the numbers (9 and 10) as there are definitely at least 2 tiers of decks in cEDH. Really like your discussion of numbers 1 through 8. I build solidly in the 5-7 range 9 times out of 10, would like to push them into the 6-8 over time.
9-9.5 is for cEDH and 9.6-10 is cEDH with the higher tier commanders.
I remember a few years ago when I first got into commander I built a niv-mizzet the firemind I opened from a masters 25 pack and won with the curiosity combo that I had accidentally put in the deck without realizing the combo
What I have noticed is that tutors are really what start to power decks up in the 9-10 range. You could play combos and card draw engines but still be at a 7, but when you throw tutors in the deck it jumps you up quick.
That's what I noticed too. A friend bought around 5 to 8 tutors. Now it's just tutor into foodchain and over :D
@@Maulwurm1 exactly, From my experience anything over 2 tutors and the deck consistency is a higher level.
I have Demonic Tudor and Diabolic Tutor, both are the Liliana version. so beautiful
You could also have demonic tutor in your deck but your combos are so janky it’s still considered a 5. This power scale based on “generalized decks” are janky. You can scale cards, but not so easily decks.
My friend's first intro to magic was with our extra commander decks. Watching him make a deck was so fun. He didn't come from standard so him putting his first deck together was so pure and fun. Every card seemed like the best card ever to him. We ended up giving him spare staples and cohesive cards we had but he had so much fun just playing a 1 or 2 it was still great
My introduction to Magic, my friends took me to a shop and helped me buy my first cards. Told me the basics and I put together some jank.
They stomped me into the ground without mercy, they put down Eldrazi and optimized beat down or control decks...
Eventually, through the crucible of fire, it molded me into an extremely oppressive, but flexible control style in which I was obsessed with having answers and protecting my creatures... fun times.
Kitchen table commander is the best commander. It's your basic battlecruiser format where everyone is playing their pet cards they like, and nobody has to sit down knowing "okay, Nate over there has 10 win cons that he can rip off with no warning, so we need to suppress him." Yes, I"m an old, boring geezer, but I liked commander before the precons.
This was helpful. I thought my decks wer around 8 but there closer to 6 and 7. It seems like 8 and higher is basically 60 card decks, no variety same hand every game
I think 9 is where you see the same games
"Self-Proclaimed Gay Man" Me too :D
😜😜😜
@Spooky_Mega_Gengar The Belmont the only beard I ever had was a very nice girl, didn't last long though lol
Honestly I would never have guessed
I play my best deck with a group every weekend, and I've won 3 times like outa 50 cause they always play level 9s & 10s however I always show, cause it's so fun
Restricting CDH to only 10's gives so much desperately needed room to the casual decks on the scale and I think the 4 levels (6-9) for casual decks better than precons seems pretty appropriate based on my own decks.
I would say mine would fit around the 6-8 levels depending on what's available. I rarely buy new singles unless its for the base of an archetype. Lots of times, I like throwing in some uncommonly used cards and meta-dependent in specific playgroups.
That's a neat philosophy, you probably save a lot of money lol
It’s nice to have some kind of a description for each deck level since no one seemed to give a decent scale before with each level described and would basically say “if it’s below a 6 then it’s not really commander”
We really wanted to get a nice detailed scale out there!!
"u won't be winning with combat damage in high power"
Najeela- "hold my beer."
That’s a combo!
@@NitpickingNerds There's a couple games I have seen in cedh where combat damage put in massive amounts of work, specifically with the black/white partner, or to counter black decks. Generally combat *wins*, though, I agree.
blood pod- "they said what now?....."
edric turn & burn honorable mention
Winota does on occasion
In the spirit of really fun 5-power decks, I made a Moritte of the Frost deck that was just reasonable draw, reasonable card draw, and then basically every clone effect in existence. I run Vesuva and Thespian’s Stage, but nothing exciting to copy. I never have any idea what I’m playing, since it’s entirely just cloning everybody else’s boards.
It's actually a dream of mine to build a deck like that xD
I have a Riku just like that, red helps to copy instant and sorceries.
Only decks I want to make these days include not playing my own deck.
1. Clone effects
2. Red betrayal effects
3. Gonti/Etali type effects
4. Combat tricks, but only used on opponent creatures
5. Goad
6. Copy tribal, but copy only opponent spells
@@hexx_4093 might I recommend Jon Irenicus, Shattered One
It involves forcing others to play your deck, and then just giving them the worst or most punishing cards you can
Toss in a siphon insight and rogue class so you can steal stuff in the interim
Edit: it also falls under your goad category
You guys should really go over your own decks in an episode and rank their power levels!!!
"Inconsistent at best"- I have finally found my home.
This made me lol 😂
Easiest question to ask your playgroup to figure out power scale: is red elemental blast good?
If yes high if no not so much
Second question, is annul good?
@@trashtronics1700 from a beginner: how would they be good? I mean, useful if you play against blue decks, but i find it way too situational?
@@nordin.munteanu you can counter any counter to defend your own spells. also, in a competitive pod, you’re going to be playing against blue/black
@@nordin.munteanu that's kind of the joke they're getting at here. If yes, it more than likely means the group is cEDH because in cedh cards that are far too situational for more casual games can be very useful in games that are usually having a potential win threat come in around turn 3-4.
I liked how you mentioned that super high power level decks can still lose to low power decks cause they are so different. There’s a card I love, Cursed Totem, turns off mana dorks and activated abilities of creatures requiring a cost, it can hose a lot of decks, but may do absolutely nothing against some decks.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 If people wanted to use the grave in cEDH they would use it as makeshift tutors as in virtual card advantage by returning stuff to the hand after putting it there from the deck. But unless you can break something like a Phage the Untouchable there is really no reason to make a cEDH deck based around the grave till they make a 5 color commander that interacts with the graveyard so Graveborn would actually be viable. And Phage is just a hypothesis like i know you can build a deck around that as a 9 but i am not sure you could make it a 10 and no one really wants to build gimmicks unless its Stax for some reason as people sure love their prison decks instead of using Stax like cards to make a 8 or 9 able to keep up with 10's and have a great chance to win with their win con.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 is it any different than Graveborn other than a different name? the premise is the same cheat things out from the grave
I am just gonna assume that my Grave Titan cloning and Nils Hamm art tribal deck is a solid 11/10
Yeah might even be 12
@@NitpickingNerds eh, I'd say more like an 11.5, 12 is storm crow voltron
Nah a 12 is like gruul mill with pako as the commander, milling away one card every attack, busted
me at the beginning : I’m interested in this video
me at the end : OMG THIS CAT IS SO CUTEEE
LOVE MY KITTY
After playing both for a little bit, one of the biggest differences between Yugioh and Magic (in relation to attitude) is that EVERYONE in Yugioh plays with a CEDH mentality. Winning is first and foremost for 98% of players, then you choose your deck based on what can actually potentially win within your price range. I remembered being kind of baffled by the hate for tutors because they're just so absurdly common in Yugioh. Even with 40 card decks being the norm, pretty much every deck has at least 1 built-in tutor (with 3 being common) as well as 15 cards you have access to 100% of the time. _Many of which being tutors._ You'll absolutely be seeing a lot of the same combos every game, but only in the first couple turns. After which the disruption, board breaking, and grind game makes each game feel different.
Well yeah but yugioh only has the 1v1 format, and it's 💯 percent about winning in 1v1 magic too. But commander is such a unique beast, where it's supposed to be about having fun first and winning second
Not always, My. Friend and I have old school decks (no links no modern acrhtypes etc). Some fun throwback games are possible! Especially in paper, with masterduel you can build optimal meta deck and play on ladders but not enough yuigoh players in my town to justify building perfect decks.
I have a rhystic study because I played in the 90s. I feel so seen rn
WE. SEE. YOU.
@@NitpickingNerds Imagine my surprise when I looked at what a Palinchron now goes for after tossing that thing around without a sleeve all those years ago. Can I get a time machine to have my teenage self invest big into Urza's block?
I think you made a great point with the "CEDH format" being misinterpreted in title. I think CEDH meta is a better term, that more fully represents what is actually happening at that level.
One year ago or smthing i buyd an obuun precon and it was so interresting to see it developing from an 4 to maybe an 8 now it is an omnath deck with shock and fetchlands and cards like cyclonic rift
Omnath is so easy to make stupid strong 💪 because he is so good 😊
i like to make decks that cost $20 or less, and going by this scale, they tend to sit at around a 4-5.
How do they play?
@@NitpickingNerds honestly ive tried to play a few of these and they caaaaaan win but its more for flavor or fun. I build a 50 dollar beckett brass deck and it just beat the shit out of people and steals all of those juicy permenants
@@NitpickingNerds I’ve been needing help with optimizing my $50 budget deck for Scorpion God. My lgs has a competitive budget commander league, and the meta there is voltron and going wide with creature spam and combat damage. Every time I control the board when things get out of control, and draw cards to keep my engine going, I often end up getting 3 v 1ed and idk what I’m doing wrong
20$ u are at 3
At 20$ that means u have an average value of 20 cents per cards... gee a snow land is worth 40 cents...
This is the Grave Titan report.
Our research has concluded this video features Grave Titan at 1:30.
Thank you for reading the Grave Titan report.
The network is cancelling the Grave Titan Report. We can't be signal boosting this kind of thing
Don't think you remember me from the Discord before I left, but my flaw, is I want to get cards from as many mechanics from magic's history as I can... so I'm stuck at level 5 for power
My deck is either a 9 or a 10 on your scale. When I get home will upload the link. I play a chatterfang mild budget.
I tend not to worry about the power level of decks. I just enjoy building around a theme usually or an off meta tribal. Example being, I am planning to build warlock tribal once Strixhaven is a bit more obtainable. I want to do a food theme deck with the new chef Commander as well. Should be fun. :)
Off-meta tribal? Never heard of it.
I mean Yurlok Shaman tribal and Oyobi spirits are meta, aren't they?
The last time i was this early, cultivate was meta.
HA 😂
I just can’t let it go....
Im thinkin mine sit between 6 and 10. I'll optimize a precon, then use whats leftover from it and my trade binder cards to build a second deck with it.
Will never be a 10 or even close to a 9 then. Those are CEDH with highly optimized decks, multiple tutors, the best fast mana and ramp, usually doesnt cost less than 1k
Nice job guys. I think this scale has a lot of context for the qualitative aspect of EDH deck building that a quantitative scale can't really grasp. Additionally, the perspective of knowing your deck's power level so that you don't hurt other's M:tG experience rather than focusing on knowing power level so that you can win every game is a really refreshing.
Yes!
We built a power level 1 when I started in 1995. Me and my friend took our 300 cards shuffled them together and we each got half. Sometimes we had no way to play certain spells because one of us would have Deep Spawn but the other had all the islands in their deck. Good times.
This is how drafting should be smh
This frustrates me. Whenever casual edh youtubers create their power scales, they always consolidate the entirety of cedh into the 10-spot. There's current meta cedh, "brewer's corner" cedh, budget cedh, and "old meta" cedh, with shades between. Those variations should not be carelessly segregated from commander at-large.
A Teferi-Chain Veil deck from 5 years ago would smash your vision of 9-power, while getting soundly beaten by current meta or brewer's corner decks.
No one intentionally builds 1-4 power decks. These channels exist to prevent people from building them.
I've always advocated for a 5-point scale. 5 being current meta cedh, 4 being casual/older cedh, 3 as focused casual, 2 as casual-casual and upgraded precons, with 1 being non-upgraded precons or Vorthos/art-themed decks. Other than budget, intent should be the determining factor.
I think this is the first power level scale I almost entirely agree with
Wow that's pretty big!
@The Nitpicking Nerds. You said something at around 27:33 that bugs me...You said that often times, a cEDH deck will combo off on turn 3 and nobody gets to have fun. This is true only when one player is running a CEDH deck while everyone else is running a casual deck thus leading to a game of solitaire. This leaves a bad taste in the mouth of everybody else as nobody else will get to do stuff and People like to do stuff in commander. However, If everyone at the table is running a cEDH deck; then because of the race to win-thus leading to a high-octane excitement-as well as plenty of interaction and stuff happening. Yes, cEDH decks end the game 60% of the time on turn 4 to 5. But a lot more action happens within those turns, from every player, than in the same time-span with casual decks playing. In summation, I would like to conclude that enjoyment of MTG is not as a result of the duration of the game but more as a result of the relevance of the player within that game. So if you play a game in which somebody manages to end the game on turn 2 but a lot happened within those two turns. Then the game, however ephemeral, may have been considered enjoyable
Hey, I really appreciate the work you guys put into your videos. The dynamic and fluidness of discussion is very natural and you cover a lot of ground with the seer amount of content you make.. I started magic 3 months ago and I'm already competing with my friends well established decks. Thanks a lot!
sheer*
... You mean to tell me that I built power level 8 decks on a whim without any tutorials? I finally have something to be proud of... Thank you. :')
Great and logical.
Imma grade my decks from NN1-10 from now on :)
I have a level 4 Nevinyral Urborg Tyrant deck
I have a level 6 Evelyn the Covetous deck
and I have a level 7 Jodah deck
Really great video!!, Wondering where your powered up precon builds from the years past fall on your scale?
I own several perfectly tuned by you guys and love them dearly.
I’m nit sure actually we would have to look them back over but I would guess 5-6
Thanks, probably what I thought based on empirical data.... The thing that nobody talks about with power level is is your commanders plan a relevant win condition. It may just say it's going to do this cool thing once and that is not win the game focused.
Wish u guys showed all the cards that was mentioned. Kinda hard trying to understand the context without knowing what the mentioned card does 😅
That one player be like (My first deck was a easy 7 my second deck was also a 7 and my current most recent deck is a 7) correction every player be like
Great content and examples, as always, gentlemen. I really enjoyed the descriptions of what makes a "5". Great things to use as examples for newer players. Love it!
I think we did a good job with this vid, too!
Are you bros from Buffalo? I think I recognize you guys from the local LGS scene.
Awesome work guys! i stopped watching commander quarter’s for you, now o don’t think i even search for the command zone anymore! Keep it up, blessings
Sorry Jimmy Josh and Mitch but that's great to hear for us anyway 😂 thanks for hanging out with us!
Today I learned that Rhystic study is a casual EDH staple that is in every lvl5 deck. Today I also learned that I'm broke cuz I have 0 decks with that card because of $ :D
26:00 I actually got to experience that once. Someone brought their cedh deck, and we played a few rounds, of which I only won one of because he scooped after I was able to consistently interact until turn 5.
I was playing a Niv-Mizzett, the Firemind deck (built around draw and burn into Isochron scepter and dramatic reversal), which was probably a 6 on this scale.
Can't remember their commander, but their main wincon involved going infinite with Kiki-Jiki, had a ton of expensive fast mana, and consistently won by turn 4.
Yeah it depends a lot on which cEDH deck you play against. A ton of them run like 20-30% cards that are dead draws vs. power 5-6 decks. And if their combo is countered, it takes longer to recover. But I also think that some decks like Rog-Silas or Codie are practically impossible for a lower power deck to beat as they consistently win on ~t2. t4 is considered mid-range to slow in the cEDH format.
Sometimes 1s are also meme decks.
This is actually a really comprehensive guide! I expected it to be another one of those vague ones that just says like numbers and then a couple descriptors, but this is super simple to use! I think the 2 main decks I have are probably both around 6-7 which is surprising because of how differently they function. One of them is a Mazirek persist combo deck but with 2 tutors and not very many persist cards to get the win, and the other is a najeela warrior tribal deck, which function super different but are both around a similar power which is interesting to me!
Hey I'm really glad you found this guide useful :D Hopefully we can get that link working for everyone lol
So power lvl 7 is that when people play like fierce guradianship and other free counterspells? was playing a mono black Vito deck against the rhino that blinks and this dude just fierce gurdianships my one spell, and blew up mana rocks with his knight of autumn, maybe my vito deck is more of a 5 or 6 or maybe the other dude misjudged his deck to be a 7? he was very syngergistic and always had a play going and as soon as the rhino came out he flickered stuff to make treasures, destroyed every mana rock that hit the field etc. is this what 7 is like? then i wanna go back to PL 6 lol
Fierce Guardianship is a staple card for Power 10 decks but it really depends on what the rest of his deck is doing. If he's wasting time destroying mana rocks, it sounds like he has a power 6-7~ish durdle deck overall.
www.moxfield.com/decks/So6zgtNwUUuzQKKz9R3b7Q Here's my Tasigur deck. This a 10 and I'm excepting no further questions. The primer is outdated cause it's no longer a hermit druid deck.
Also CAAAAAAAT
My Angels, Demons and hydra's are very strong decks would love to know what power level they are at..
It's so hard discussing rule 0 with my orvar deck. "Whats your win condition?". "I don't have any dedicated win cons, but everything is a win con in this deck.".
I have a 5 color token/artifacts deck a lot like that where I can win with almost any 2-3 cards in the deck. Everything combos with each other.
when you mentioned the whole "50 rhystic studies from playing in the 80s" thing it reminded me that a friend in my playgroup who has been playing forever used to have like multiple playsets of things like dual lands, force of wills, etc. but they sold them a long time ago. So unfortunate since they wouldve had like tens of thousands of dollars.
This is inaccurate as hell. I dont mean that in a rude way, just that it undersells the complexity.
Combat damage exists at the very peak of 10.0
Additionally, full blown cEDH starts at 8. Not "Full tutors"(plenty are unplayable/its better to run other cards tbfh), fully attempting to win. The flavor is in building the deck and then executing the best plan possible with different commanders with the sole intent of victory.
We have "Wincon Packages", 2 card wincons and 1 card wincons.
Hermit Druid is a 1 card wincon, but its slow. Play Hermy, wait a full turncycle with a clenched buttocks, pay a green mana and basically win by recurring thor on upkeep to draw it for the win.
Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle is an example of a 2 card wincon.
There is also a "Zero Card Wincon" decklist: Godo. Count to 11, 10 fingers and one raging- uh,yeah you cast him and he finds helm and you equip helm of the host to him (6 for godo,5 to equip) with a ton of ways to cheat on cost (can be as little as 4 mana to win in that deck).
This powerlevel list is okay if you look at it through the lense of social interactions. "Are you pushing your commander's mechanics limits?" is a full on different agenda from "Are you trying to play and win as efficiently as possible?"
That powerlevel cutoff is around 6 opposed to 8. Yeah. 6. 7 is the gradient where rogue not quite cEDH lists, and decks on their way to becoming cEDH or decks that have a capped powerlevel and arent quite good enough (Daretti, for example, is like 2 or 3 cards off of becoming an 8, so 7 purgatory it is).
Pilot skill is huge, but can only realistically account for around half of a ... powerlevel point? Whatever. Basically a 5 that someone has candcrafted with a shitload of experience and knows the exact purpose of each card can make that list about a 5.5, though the gradient is obviously a lot more complicated than 1.0 to 10.0.
I think of powerlevel as a giant long line, a band of every color. Different goals at different spots of the scale. Each deck is slightly different in powerlevel from each other deck, unless they contain the exact same cards, obviously.
Achieving your decklists goal being the driving force should start around 4. Everything prior to that should include jank and "I threw cards together in a pile, is 10 lands enough? Idk" at about 0.1
I should also clarify that 0.0 and 10.0 lists do not exist and cannot exist. There is definitely a best and worst deck, but that implies perfection and just being an illegal deck all together.
9.9s include: Flash Hulk. Skill independant. OP.
Codie Tutors for Naus, the next boogeyman (insanely fast and consistent, likes to win turn 2 regularly, with protection backup), had a tournament where only the people piloting this deck got to the finals pod. And like one person that didnt get stomped by Codie. Id say that list was about a 9.7 with pilot skill.
"Top Tier" and "10s" are actually just 9.0 to 9.7, as FH is exponentially better than Codie, and Codie is so good that a meta shift had to occur to counter it, the other option was to just join them and flip a 1d4 instead of playing the game. Codie was able to be stopped. FH was not.
Everything else, from ThOr to BreachFreeze to Hermit to Polymorph to whatever else, those have counters. They can be stopped. They cannot be counterspells to other wincons after everyone blows interaction. Counterspells that read "Actually I win" may exist in 2070, but we had it, in a form, for awhile lol.
@@crazykhespar8487 Flash Hulk is definitely skill dependent. Sure, there will be some games where players didn't draw interaction and you win t0 (of course referring to pre-flash ban - but the same thing applies to ad-naus and consult-oracle lines that people play now). But skilful and knowledgeable players will be aggressively taking mulligans for t0 interaction when the see tymna-thrasios in the pod etc. This is why almost all cEDH tournaments are won by highly skilled pilots.
I like power level 5. It is inexpensive, and fun.
Me watching this video and then taking out cultivate for wood elves in my lathril deck....
I think you are under-rating some of the preCons. Some of them get to a 6, while some are a 4, but the recent UG deck out of vox plays like a strong 5 or low 6
The landfall one :)? I picked up that one for my first deck. The Aesi sea serpent or w.e.
Was blown away at the power level of the cards! And then to find out they arent even that good blew me away.
Ive got quite the collection to build.
I guess my decks are as following.
[Assumed Power Level] - Commander (Notable cards)
A) [8] - "Anowon the Ruin Thief (Cyclonic Rift, Chrome Mox, Varragoth Bloodsky Sire, Rankle Master of Pranks, Scheming Symmetry, Notorious Thong, Maddening Cacophony, many unblockable Rogues)
B) [7.5] - "Wyleth, Soul of Steel" (Sword of Body and Mind, Argentum Armor, Stonehewer Giant, Darksteel Plate, Grafted Exoskeleton, Spectra Ward, Sunforger, many free equip stuff)
C) [7] - "Gisela, Blade of Goldnight" [Heartless Hidetsugu, Pyrohemia, Fiery Emancipation, Runed Halo, Chandra Torch of Defiance, many burn and white selective protection)
D) [7] "Volrath, the Shapestealer" (Inexorable Tide, Black Sun's Zenith, Necroskitter, many Shapeshifter, Loyal Guardian, Blighted Agent, Myojin of Night's Reach)
Excellent description of the power levels.
7-8 is definitely the sweet spot for me.
A lot of people find that 6's and 7's are the sweet spot for them however people that don't really have much time to spare would play high power EDH up to 9 that way they can at least get in a good amount of games especially if they don't see each other for 3 weeks at a time
One is a 9. One is a solid 10 and shiny/alpha
When do you start adding things like fetches, shocks, triomes, demonic & vamp tutors? Would they be ok in a 7? I figure actual dual lands and higher end cards like wheel of fortune would be closer to power 9.
I’d say tutors (good ones) are at an 8 on average, where triomes and shocks can be around a 7.
Cards aren't on any powerlevel. Are you playing tutors and good lands in your dudes with moustaches deck? That does not make ot powerful, but does make you look for the moustaches you like.
If you make a focused deck but run mostly basics you can still make a very powerful deck but other might need to be made for mana fixing.
Really depends on the rest of your deck because strong cards often synergise with each other exponentially. You could put fetches and shocks into a power 5 deck if the rest of it is jank as that would only reduce the probability of mana screw. Tutors are only strong if your deck has 2 card insta-win combos. Wheel of fortune is only strong in niche archetypes like Nekusar or Storm variants. And on the other end of the scale, you have decks like a $100 budget cEDH Yuriko which is probably ~power 9 despite playing no tutors and mostly basics.
There's one guy and his son that come to commander night at my lgs and they always bring 10s while everyone else has like 5 through 7s :/
Just don't play with him.
Great video, gentlemen.
Me realizing I’ve never built anything under a 7...
And myself not being able to build a 7 or higher :(.
I'm too poor to afford power level 5 and above decks, I have to work with what jank chaff I have and I think it has made me a better magic player.
If that your dream to do pod cast magic you are so lucky guy to do on full time job 👍👍👍very happy for you good job continu your video is amazing but i miss deck tech and doc deck
Joke on you, borborygmus enrages can be a 4 with him and 99 lands haha
Only in duel commander. You need to burn through 120 life with 3 opponents and only drawing one land per turn.
My decks are hard to rank because we stopped purchasing new cards nearly a decade ago (with a few one offs). We were getting fed up with the Power Creep and put a stop to it by not buying new cards. Because of that, my , decks are built with older cards that are comparatively underpowered, however they are optimized as much as possible.
My best deck is built around Angel's Trumpet and contains both a ton of ramp and creatures that are good on both offense and defense, like Basilisks, Cockatrice, Frostbeast, and Wiitigo. It is not the most powerful, but it IS fast and efficient.
The deck I have the hardest job assigning a power ranking is a deck I built FEATURING Sorrow's Path (Yes, one of the worst cards in the history of Magic). This deck is so optimized, it has both a high winning percentage (among our group) and everyone does whatever they can to keep the Path OFF the board. I might even spend $4 to get Stuffy Doll and Spitemare to further enhance the deck.
Hun plugged my godo in got an 11/10.
Because a deck that is an 8 can still play with a table of 6's I find that using 4 groups works the best. I don't use numbers but instead questions.. I think this system makes more sense because everyone thinks that their deck is more powerful than it is,
1. Janky cards I own and wanted to try
2. I tried to make this deck good and bought a few cards. Or used Edhrec.
3. I have been building and testing this deck and it's roughly about as Optimized as I can make it.
4. Cedh.
What's nice is you can say I am at the high end of question 2, but not gameknights strong. Or maybe the high or low end of q3, almost cedh, or I optimized the deck but still need to test more and my win rate isn't what I had hoped. But like I said I just ask the question instead of asking for a number that varies from person to person
Video is easily a highly optimized 10 because Amber showed up
She hasn't been in a video in forever!
Great topic, thanks for talking about something that's too often overlooked at the kitchen table! 💯👏🏻
It definitely can be!
love ur decktechs/card reviews/ help with certain aspects of the game. Keep it up
If we can help anyone get better and/or have more fun then we are happy :)
Amber plays a power level 4 against 8's but has sol ring into arcane signet every game
How did you know!?
Damn. I swear the Sultai 1/1 counter deck I’m working on is stuck at about a 6. Maybe a low 7.
THE BEST POWER RANKING
1-2: janky piles
3-4: precon
5-6: fun synergies
7-8: well built synergistic decks that have a clear game plan and win con
9: for the most part optimized and fast, but not built to ideally win on a specific early turn every game
10: cEDH, taking full 100% advantage of every legal commander card regardless of price. not focused on playing into synergies, every slot is perfect, zero room for pet cards
All of my decks and some guessed power levels:
Averna, the Chaos Bloom - 4 (Cascade/llandfall)
Bruna, the Fading Light - 6 (Angel/Reanimator)
Bruvac the Grandiloquent - 6 (Mill/control)
Hapatra, Vizier of Poison - 7 (-1/-1, tokens)
Kadeena, Slinking Sorcerer - 6 (Morph)
Kodama of the Center Tree - 3 (Soulshift?!)
Krark, the Thumbless / Sakashima of a Thousand Faces - 8 (Spellslinger, Would be a 9 but I left a couple other coinflips)
Queen Marchesa, Long may she reign - 5 (Treasure/Monarch)
Tinybones, Trinket Thief - 6 (Discard)
I enjoyed the video, I'd like to rectify the way cEDH ("The 10") is reperesented here. I'd say that the big jump between the high power casual and the cEDH section is the viabilitiy of commanders. You're clearly exaggerating the how many commanders there are - you said 20, but the database has around 170 decks right now - but some a lot of commanders just don't do enough. The emphasis is on the commander either being a massive card advantage outlet (Tymna; Thrassios; Kess; Tatyova; Kraum...) or a combo outlet (Ukkima for Sultai Food Chain; Heliod for Heliod Ballista Stax) or both (stupid Kinnan). In high power you can get pretty much anything to work still, in cEDH that's just not the case anymore.
the way i see it, there are four types of commander decks. Battlecruiser, Casual, High Power, and Competitive.
Battlecruiser; you draw a card, maybe you do a thing. No one wants to board wipe because doing so restarts the game.
Casual; more or less multiplayer solitaire, someone ends up being the "alpha" at the table but only able to eliminate one other player. Combos, if any, are like four or more different cards that loop.
High Power; Everyone's "playing to win" but no one's optimized to actually do it that quickly. Each deck is lacking in some capacity.
Competitive; All about playing to win, and ideally fast. Many different strategies.
I get often complaints that my 8 takes down CDh.but I’m Sisay and complicated.
In my Opinion Power Level 9 is also cEDH. Every Level 9 Deck ive faced until now is also just built to win. No Real Flavors or Themes, more exactly what you said. The Person wants to win and looks online what the best decks are. the only difference to Level 10 here is that they dont see spending 250€ for a single Card so they maybe leave the best 7-8 Cards from the Level 10 Deck out but thats it.. the rest are the exact same Cards and the Cards he/she has in there instead of the 250€ Haymaker is maybe a 50€ Haymaker... So yeah Level 9-10 are both cEDH for Me and my Play Group. We mostly try to keep the Power Level around 6-7.
yeah, pretty much all my decks are power 6.
I am super casual though, so i like where i am.
Actually, i might have a 5 (Zaffai, Thunder Conductor, modified precon. It's slow in the beginning, but it has its wild turns that, like getting 20 elementals right after a boardwipe) and one that i'm not entierly sure if it's 5 or 6 (Zurzoth, Chaos Rider. Devils go "boom", yayy)
Commander is a learning game as much as it's a whale'$ pay-to-win.
Thalia was that way because when I first built her I just threw all my 'meh...okay' stuff in with things I pulled like Grasp of Fate for example when I drafted it in a Mystery Booster and didn't realize how good it was (such a rookie!) but Thalia has adjusted as I found that the Heliod I tossed in to have a beater and counter engine actually had a few synergies with Thalia taxing my foes while using an Anngelic Exaltation to turn the Commander Damage she deals from 2 to like 15 unequiped with first strike so anything that blocked was also removed which in turn also cut the need to rely on tapped creature removal as much as Thalia just taxed them too high and they were meant to be played mid to early game. I also learned that I had to time when I cast her because if I waited I lost some momentum to aggro decks but in fact could use her politically. "What will you give me to NOT cast Thalia this turn?" Especially when i dropped in Emergence Zone. Then I looked at how my life total once went to like 180 just from a simple Heliod combo and decided to add 2 Life Gain Wincons for about 30$ and buffed her up from "Jank Commander who gets me killed" to "Weapon Commander whose placement can cause my enemies despair. and it's awesome she was just a 7$ investment on Amazon to boot so I wouldn't just have to play my Chullane Precon.
I think that's part of the fun using a 'low tier' deck. The evolution from jank to tank. Though some are more of a puzzle than others. Take my Chullane Precon. I've broke it down, added a Soulherder and Thassa ((Theroes Beyond Death edition) to the deck to make ETB really fun and awesome for some Token Generation but I find it doesn't really win games. Same with Pella my little Dwarf Commander who has given me a home for all my vehicles from Kaladesh and Kaldhiem but again other than praying nobody board wipes my artifacts long enough to get Armed and Armored out and swing for game is not much of wincon.
Though isn't that the trap of it? Wincons. Winning is nice but I think sometimes we forget Commander is a format for fun unless you're doing CEDH tournaments. It's why no matter what power level my deck is I always take a fun deck. In fact if I take a really nasty CEDH deck I've been tuning I always bring something that's got no hope of winning but is fun for cosplay. Twofold reasons-
1: Aftercare. It can be brutal when you murder a group of friends with you Commander deck.
2: There's almost always a follow up game and it's nice to have something to shift gears down with for yourself/test in the moment and get some advice on.
I am bad at deck building. Seems like I'm always rushing to put the best possible cards in the deck, yet it still gets out performed by a simple pre-con deck. Case in point, simply having good cards doesn't not a good make.
One of my current decks is Goreclaw. I'm not running Eldrazi because I don't want to be a try hard with annihilator. But rushing my commander and then rushing out some big mono green beaters is cool. The deck can apply a lot of pressure pretty easily, but no matter what adjustments I make, the deck just doesn't win. The table doesn't like seeing one deck drop big creatures that can murder a player. So the table always teams up to neuter my board, then one of those 3 players will combo off suddenly and win.
Maybe this is only true for "casual" players, but people tend to get very intimidated by creatures with big stat lines. I drop a Terastadon and the table is scared. Even though it can be chump blocked just fine. Sure with my commander it will have trample, but on it's own in a vacuum it has nothing else.
I'm currently testing out some additional combat trick cards like "Berserk" and "Overwhelming Stampede". Perhaps getting some surprise alpha strike damage can help seal the deal. If I were in red as well, I could use additional combat phase cards and actually have a combo win potential as well.
Oh well. I just think that a win that revolves around big stompy creatures is probably the hardest way to win. It's a simple tactic to pilot, but it stands out far more than a few small combo pieces.
I would assume my Goreclaw deck is a 5 or 6 at most. In terms of your rules, it should be a 5 at least, but.....
The deck I'm currently building is Tasha the Witch Queen. The deck has powerful effects as you all know. But it's main hinderance is it's annoying higher CMC curve. So while the deck can do a wide range of different things compared to the narrow combat damage only, it also probably isn't anything more than a 5 or 6.
I'm also working with Prossh. But again, unless I'm rushing the Food Chain combo, the deck doesn't stand out as super strong. Token spam, sure fine whatever. All my decks have good cards and staples in them, but just doesn't seem to matter.
As a cEDH degenerate, I understand the sentiment of "you're only playing the most expensive cards if they're the best cards." I think mine is a 9.5 in that I'm only really missing true dual lands in terms of optimization but if you're running 3 colors and not running adNaus the extra 2 life to shock is insignificant. As you said, you're looking to win on turn 1 if possible, 3 at the latest.
My friends has not 1, not 2, not THREE but 4 decks that are over 90 lands. Ashling Pilgrim, Sen Triplets, The first sliver (cascade into the blue Epic spell), and Maralen of the Mornsong. He's not a bad deck builder at all, but these are definitely 2 or maybe a 3 by your criteria, lol
1-3 Garbage. 4 Precon - 5-6 Optimized/upgraded precon. 7-8 Highly optimized with near perfect land bases and some tutors - 9-10 CEDH. 6-7.5 is the prime time play table of EDH.
I feel like this was a video you didn't want to make and you didn't try very hard like @ power level 3. People have fun in different ways and I feel this video doesn't do well to highlight that. I also believe the most important factor to determine how Competitive a deck is will focus on how quickly the deck can win, minus the Oracle combo it's just stupid. Redundancy for quicker wins is the goal of your 9-10. Maybe a Special Guest for a part 2? King Cash or someone? Just a thought
The horror when I just realised I might be a try-hard.
I have never been a competive person and I would never want to compromise the fun of a game to win... but part of the fun for me is deck-building. I enjoy optimising in my spare time.
Looking now, my decks are all like Power-level 8... I live in a little town and my LGS has mostly Power-level 4 to 7.
... I need to get around to building some of my sillier deck ideas so I don't feel so nasty.
Speaking of 10s losing to low ranks, that applies to loads of games. Like, I'm a master rank pokemon player (the video game, not the tcg), yet I've lost games to rank 1s, probably kids, because they are so unpredictable and do things that don't make sense, lol. All in all, if I played such an opponent back to back to back, I'd come out on top, but being top tier doesn't mean a 100% win streak.