These Decks Never Run Out of Gas
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มี.ค. 2024
- #mtg #thetrinketmage #trinketmage
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I love slow grindy midrange decks! Almost every deck I make will try to grind people out like this!
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Can't lose steam if you never get going to begin with
*points to forehead*
The effect of shuffling the library back was the determining factor of choosing old kozilek instead of the new one. Every deck runs some sort of graveyard recursion, and the feeling that my deck will NEVER END had some friends just quit the game because they just "can't deal with this card for the fourth time in a row". I love it, the grave is just my extended hand.
I love the shuffle titans for exactly that reason! Though I do also use new Kozilek too!
That "Skimp out on the graveyard hate" is soooo true.
My best and most favourite deck is Raffine Reanimator.
Even though I've cut souch removal and counter magic just to add more big dumb creatures to bring back (I'm down to like 4 pieces of targeted removal and 2 or 3 counterspells)
They still tell me it's too oppressive and out of control.
The only graveyard hate in the entire Meta is when someone runs farewell or bojuka bog. Which is like... 2 people. They won't take my advice to add more things that interact with the yard. Hell the EZURI player doesn't run scavenging Ooze!
Not running ooze is a crime!
cant stop me from putting bojuka in!
@@ittybittybunnymilkies6577 brother I'm trying to get them to run GY hate and they're not doing it! Haha
I play 2-3 gy exile in every deck because every deck uses it at some point
I also have a raffine reanimator deck and my play group also hates it lol!!!
This video further reinforces my love for graveyard hate. Nothing more satisfying than having instant speed graveyard hate to stop someone’s plans fast 🤣
Fairie macabre is probably the most underutilized card in the entire format. If you are in green and you have shared summons in hand, you can tutor it and a value piece and interact in instant speed.
@@hellNo116 I’ve been mostly running soulguide lantern but dam thanks for a new cards
@@ant7433 you are welcome. at some point in the past i went on a spree looking for all the free interaction in the game. there are so many hidden gems.
i recommend that a lot of decks need to run gush as well. in general free interaction is great. don't use cards like foil though. i am cutting me from my niv mizzet deck most likely.
i should sit down and make a deck list with all the free interaction in the format tagged with the specific use of it. if not the free the efficient. because yeah some of it we know, but there are some underutilized cards. for instance i don't see many players play gush even in tatyova decks and that seems insane to me.
i learned about many cool cards by looking older cedh decks and competitive pauper edh deck. this is where i found fairie macabre actually. i think it was in the dimir decks in the format.
Bojuka Bog *Enters the chat*
thanks dunkey
Trying to unpack this video is a nightmare but I'll give it my best go
1) A deck should be built with 4 types of card draw in mind repeatable like a phyrexian arena, burst like Night's whisper, and synergistic card draw these being draw based on something your deck is already doing. Leaning too heavy into any one of these will actually hurt the consistency of a deck.
2) I don't think all decks need to use the graveyard but all decks should be able to interact with it. A player should figure out if they are more interested in being able to reuse cards multiple times, a single time, or not at all and go with the appropriate options. For example a spell slinger type deck may not want to cast the same spells too many times as they may actually interfere with their ability to dig into their decks to hit their mind's desire or tendrils of agony.
3) Every play group and player is different so making the claim that this type of deck is going to work for every group can actually be really bad advice. Based on personal experince in the 15ish years I've played commander there have been some playgroups where the average win turn was 6 to 9 and others where the win turn was 12+. This deck would fit well into the the 12+ category but would do terrible in the 6 to 9 turn win range.
I was going to say more but the other points I was going to bring up didn't really match anything you brought up in the video or in comments, I think the video is well done and offers some interesting takes on deck building philosphies but I also think it ignores the most important thing about commander which is just to have fun.
Alright let me unpack your comment here...
1 - I don't know if you need a mix of types of draw. If something like a phyrexian arena is best early game would it not make sense to max out on those effects to try and land one early game?
2 - I think almost every deck will benefit from some recursion. And I also think everyone should be able to interact with the yard. Graveyard hate is important. I disagree with your example. As someone who has been playing storm decks for 10 years recasting the storm card especially mind's desire is usually game winning and recursion is really important there.
3 - I've been playing edh for like 12 years and have played in shops all over the country and online on various websites and discord servers. I have seen a lot of playgroups and I can say with confidence that this strategy works very well. There is no playgroup where there is a hard average turn 6 win. You can always play a control deck to push that.
4 - How am I ignoring fun? I think unfun games are where you do nothing. Telling people to put more long term value in their deck so they can play more cards will almost certainly increase their fun.
Best commender channel for casual players on the planet.
This is how my Pantlaza deck is. I’ll get board wiped 3-4 times but always right back in it next turn. Lots of draw engines and ramp and I run Struggle//Survive so I can keep getting everything back. And the new Vaultborn Tyrant coming out is just gonna make even better
I really like this video! Really opened my eyes to something I felt a few of my decks were missing that I really like! Thanks
That’s my goal so I’m happy to hear it!
I've always felt weird about my Yurlok of scorch thrash deck being played for value instead of combo. After watching your video I understood that deck was always meant to just jund players out and that's totally ok ✨👌. thank you!
My favourite advantage engine was definitely ephara, god of the polis in the command zone. Every creature draws a card and playing instant speed interactive piece drew a card if it was stapled on a creature or made a creature
I have been screaming about seasons past since 2018, it is so good and no one is playing it
I have a boomer jund edh deck built around this card and it's done wonders
It’s such a good card late game
would you share it if i said please?
Weird tech that I've found as well is that if you cast belzenlok late game and you have a relatively middle-of-the-ground to high mana curve, he exiles a ton of your lands for you, getting rid of dead draws if the game goes REALLY long
I, in the other hand, just play it silently. I know how awesome it is, and i really don't want to be on the receiving end of it😂
75¢ card and it's capable of winning games on its own quite frankly
Add a seedborn muse type of effect and you control where the game goes and I'm so happy that it's getting traction in other spaces besides my tables
Thank you so much for this video! I remember when I watched your vid about "how to not build around your commander" and feeling like 'that's great but how do I build a deck that isn't a copy of the example they made'. This video helped me make changes to my decks to feel less bland and powerless in large pods (I had a lot of one-off draw so my deck either won explosively early or got wrekt by combat damage lategame on an empty hand) Keep up the great work and keep challenging the status quo about commander :)
Thank you very much! I’m glad my videos have helped!
I love my Kethis, the Hidden Hand deck. Kethis himself provides recursion and can help get some big threats down a turn early if nobody answers him. He also makes stuff like Urza's Ruinous Blast and Kamhal's Druidic Vow absolutely disgusting. There's a lot of good legendary specific value engines too
Very helpful video on what cards can you put in your deck that will make it so you won't run out of gas. If you run a tokens deck that has green, a card that would slot well in it is Timeless Witness. It is a more expensive to cast Eternal Witness, but you won't run out of gas since you exile it and make a token copy with it's Eternalize ability. It is even better if you have ways to populate that token. I have it in my Ghired, Conclave Exile deck and it has been really good.
I do like timeless witness as well! I play eternal witness in my deck cause it can be grabbed off of a woodland bellower
Timeless witness also has some niche uses in Muldrotha decks, if you take the time to put a few fail-safes into it.
Lurrus is my value engine and she's pretty great, if she gets exiled tho it's all over. Also for that deck I have 1 infinite combo I can recur with lurrus so that if I do run out of steam I have a fallback
I played Lurrus in the command zone for a while and she worked great!
I was impressed by the saga praetors - Elesh Norn, Sheoldred, Jin-Gitaxias, and Vorinclex - for how little deck construction they need to support while they set themselves up to be re-activated into the saga so the whole process repeats. Urabrask at least wants more cheap instants and sorceries as a limit. Fun engines to sit back and wear down opponents with.
Once I had only 1 peice of graveyard hate in my deck (Soul guide lanter) and my opponent cast a Surge to Victory targeting a World at War , and man it felt good to crack that Sould guide lanter.
I saw an ephara control deck use saltskitter to consistently draw 3 or 4 cards per turn cycle which was really cool to me because I had never seen the card saltskitter before.
i have a shigeki deck that i call mono blue control because it plays mostly at instant speed. the entire gameplan is ramp an absurd amount then just use spot removal and fogs to get there eventually, the most common win condition is casting ezuri's predation (sometimes multiple times) and swinging with an army of 4/4s after everyone else is out of cards
Midrange grind decks is an archetype I love, but I have struggled to create a deck that has the tools to disrupt combo decks while also keeping the midrange identity.
How would you navigate a midrange deck, in deck building and in game, against play group that leans toward combo decks?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Removal and being very careful about what you remove is key! Keep note of what combos are getting you and keep an eye on those pieces
Heyyy, another salvaging station enjoyer ! It's my favorite card, I especially like playing lantern control with it. I also really enjoyed ransom letter with it recently.
Regrowth effects are my favorite part of green's color identity, that and i love running past in flames or underworld breach in alot of my red decks. Utilizing cards for a second time instead of stalling out is almost like a tutor effect. Its so powerful
Tablet of ancestry in any deck that goes somewhat wide is absolutely fantastic. My Emmara, soul of the accord deck has a tendency to just dump its hand in the first few turns making a super wide board full of tokens, and discarding the last one or two cards to draw what's usually at least five feels so good, plus since it's on an artifact, it's a repeatable effect for when I dump the new hand I just drew.
Now i'm sure that i want to be on ur patreon and let you help me with my deck haah. Amazing content
Hope to see you in the discord server soon!
Personally I like REPEATABLE interaction.
Font of Agonies in Vilis, Retribution of the Ancients in a counters deck, Lux Cannon in a proliferate deck, Constant Mists in lands decks, etc.
I will say probably one of the best ways I’ve seen for deck building. I do like putting a combo or two in EVERY deck that wins me the game that turn for when games get too long or tiring (I’m not the type to typically scoop unless you blow up my lands or mana rocks turn 1-2 if you had a better start). Sometimes I just don’t want to play a 6+ hour game in a 6-8 person pod. Over all great video. I think possibility storm is an underrated card and is an auto include in every red deck. It definitely tests people’s deck building/deck knowledge/skills. 🤣🤣
To summarise the main points:
1a. Board wipes for aggro.
1b. Spot removal for combos.
2. Recursion.
3. Value pieces (like phyrexian arena)
4. Scaling (mana sinks)
5. Value engines.
Added the og legendary eldrazi for the annihilator 4, kept them for the shuffle triggers.
All of my casual decks have ways to avoid decking out, and I include 3-4 cards that provide lifegain+stax/interaction such as Meathook Massacre, Blind Obedience, Authority of the Consuls, etc.
Not dying to decking out or attrition damage and still having 94~ cards in the deck to choose from for whatever I’m doing has helped dominate long games by never losing heavy hitters.
Reminds me of Adrian Sullivan’s “Baron Harkonnen” deck from back in the days and later during Timespiral standard.
Righteous cause and grim feast are great ways to pad your life total in causal. There's always something dying and always someone attacking.
I love playing for the long grindy game, though I usually do not play midrange (more of a control player personally). But one deck I have that I think fits this really well is my Eriette of the charmed Apple deck. The deck's gameplan is actually quite simple. I play Eriette, then I enchant my opponents' biggest threats (to me) with some cheap aura that gives them +1/+1 and pro creatures, or flying or some other beneficial effect. Then I just kind of sit there are and slowly drain my opponent's. I'm still missing several card draw pieces for the deck, but it plays surprisingly well. With a few other cards to disincentivise attacks and several auras that can recur themselves, I can usually keep it going for a long time. I also run plenty of protection for my commander, but even so, I can usually recast her two or so times without much issue. I think it is a very different kind of deck, but functions much the same as what you were talking about.
I got a Jan Jansen deck that is grindy as hell too. With all those goblin welders we habe nowadays, plus the recursion from mardu colors... oh boy. My fav wincon is machine gunning with marionette master and cranial plating!
My Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker deck kept getting flatlined by having Shirei removed. I combatted that with a bunch of protection pieces, but thanks to this video i now know of a different approach that i can try. Thank you for such well explained and insightful content, i really liked the creative value engines in particular.
Another strategy I like which usually works best in some combination of red/white/black is what I’ll call ‘hyper-aggression’. You come out of the gate swinging with 14 board wipes in the deck, all the artifact and enchantment destruction under the sun. You hit them hard and fast, tackle them to the ground, and never let them get up. It’s what I do for my Syr Gwyn Voltron deck. You don’t need to worry about running out of steam if you never let your opponents generate any of their own in the first place. Of course this won’t work for as many groups because it’s much more of a ‘feels bad’ strategy than grindy midrange because your goal isn’t to outlast what your opponents are doing, it’s to not let them do any of it in the first place. Sort of mardu’s answer to azorius/selesyna stax.
I have a pure colorless Karn, Legacy Reforged commander deck that uses KCI, Mirrorworks, and Nim Deathmantle with artifact creatures (some with etb triggers) to create an overwhelming board state over time. I've only made it work one time so far, and I used Jhoira's Familiar as my creature for Deathmantle to do its thing.
It works by Sacrificing a Nontoken Artifact Creature to KCI, which triggers Deathmantle, pay 4 to reanimate the creature, and then pay 2 for Mirrorworks to make a clone of it. Repeat until you can't pay for Deathmantle since the KCI mana pays for the Mirrorworks trigger. You can also use Karns mana to pay the cost of the Mirrorworks and Deathmantle triggers too, so over time you net more and more free mana and more artifacts which give you more mana the next turn.
Deck needs more Gaea’s Blessing 😉
I play it in my dandan deck and that card is so fun
my Sharuum Salvaging Station deck was one of my favourite engine decks to play
I haven’t seen anyone play Sharuum in so long I’m thinking about building her!
Good Ty for thèse Strategic Minds 👍
Regrowth and Shigeki is one of my favorite late game value engine
Here comes Lurrus / Bjorna / Wernog Infinite value>
every card is meant to be a conditional make a guy every turn, or a conditional phyrexian arena, then load it up with removal, and pesto, value. With lurrus as a backup
Would Sunbird's Invocation be considered a value engine? It allows for a second spell to be cast from the top of your deck EACH time you cast a spell from your hand (and no, the cast spell DOES NOT have to resolve).
Totally! I think sun bird is really good
Salvaging Station got exiled? Karn the Great Creator can't pull from sideboard (in Commander), but he can pull from exile.
Also would you say something like Shigeki, Jukai Visionary + Colossal Skyturtle as an engine?
Would also something like command tower + the new Tower Winder, and then use the command tower for discard effects? (and then repeatable copy the tower winder)
as someone who LOVES being able to re-use cards as many times as possible (not just flashback once and exile it forever) I feel you. One of my favorites is using faerie mechanist to put pressure on because 3 in the air is just pushing that uncomfortable to take multiple hits from line so people kill it, then a simple skeleton shard to return it to hand for one mana, play faerie mechanist again, and pull another arifact from my top 3 cards. Because I like doing it myself I've always been conscious of packing graveyard hate to keep anyone from doing it back to me, but also in turn trained my friends to always be cautious of graveyards.
My current project is trying to use Scion of the Ur dragon for it's 2 cost copy ability to throw highly situational dragons into the graveyard and copy their abilities at instant speed while being immune to counterspell because it's an ability not a spell, and trying to carry enough cards to keep shuffling them back into my deck, and Nylea's Bow is gonna be a BIG target every time it hits the field for it's ability to put 4 creatures from graveyard on the bottom of my deck. It's gonna be gimmicky and kinda loaded with bad draws, but hopefully there's also enough wheel effects to throw those cards away for a new hand and then once again shuffle those high cost dragons back into the deck so I can copy them for abilities later. Basically the end goal is to have yugioh anime bullshit levels of situational silver bullets at all times for 2 mana and then to keep shuffling them back for reuse while a flyer commander that keeps getting beefier with counters over time is a constant boardstate threat.
and just for example of how silly the idea is if it actually ends up working, for 2 mana on a turn an opponent looks like they're about to pop off I can suddenly have a Niv Mizzet on field and draw a card for every spell they cast, I might as well have just ported Maxx C from yugioh over to mtg and people want that card permabanned for being so strong and played in 99.9% of decks
My favorite solitaire combo is Time Spiral + Riftsweeper.
11:35, nah bro i've had my midnight reaper swords to plowshared frame 1. people dont care, they see draw a card they want it gone
Playing ewit in a blink deck is a devious way to out grind anybody
I’ve had a lot of luck with seasons past. Feels busted af every time it resolves
It’s like drawing 5+ cards!
The thing with the arena vs. whispers debate is this, it comes down what you aim to do: arena costs 3 mana and will only do something if you get around to your next turn with it still being on board. even then it still is more expensive than whispers, and has done less for you. only if another rotation passes around the table and arena doesnt get removed, it somewhat starts to break even, while still costing more. only if a third rotation can be completed, arena has been worth playing over whispers. also, if you play whispers on turn 2 you will be able to start using the cards on turn 3 you drew with it, in contrast to playing arena there. so generally, whispers is just the better effect. however, decks with other synergies/gameplans (enchantment focus, grinding playstyle, recursion heavy) are able to make great use out of arena, it just is not the be all include for black card draw that it sometimes gets made out to be
The closest thing to a value piece that I use is Chainer, Nightmare Adept plus any evoke elemental. You discard a card, target your elemental, pay the evoke cost, the elemental dies and you recur the value both from the elemental and from permanents with death triggers over and over again.
Chainer is an excellent value piece!
Control and Midrange woooooo
Hey what commander do you like do use for salvaging station?
Currently it’s R/U Tawanos but I’ve played the station in almost every color combination
Great video
Thanks
Never snuff the instant-speed card draw spell though.
I want to make a mono white deck that is like this (on a budget, so no Emeria), but I can’t think of any good value engines. The deck I am building does not have a critical mass of particularly good ETBs, so repeated blink is out. Any ideas?
Maybe salvaging station actually. Didn’t realise it was so nice and cheap. I got it confused with the expensive station in my brain.
shorikai or any other 1-toughness token maker plus skullclamp is a great value engine, even better if youre running iso/rev as your value engine fits into your infinite combo
value pieces that also fit in combos are just good in general too, having a combo in a deck that has nothing to do with what the deck wants to do otherwise feels kinda bad imo. another example i can think of is dualcaster mage + twinflame/heat shimmer in krark/sakashima, both dualcaster and the copy spells are good on their own in the deck but also make another win condition together
That’s a good point as well, if your value piece and become part of a win condition it does double duty and can be an all star in a deck
There are plenty of Partner pairings that draw if you don't want to run out of things to play. Tevesh, Tymna, Kraum, Thrasios... just play those, ezpz
I was wondering if you do any deck doctor stuff. Maybe for patrons? I have a deck that I built with your bottom up design but I got a lot of weird looks when I shared the deck idea and deck list.
I do! Anyone in the discord can share a deck but tier 2 or higher patrons can do a 1 on 1 discord call to get help with their deck
@@thetrinketmageI assume the discord is private to teir 1 patrons? It's not linked on the YT or twitter or anything. Also another great video keep up the good work.
It says "one time help" Does that mean one time a month or one time forever? @@thetrinketmage
Yea discord is for patrons only
The 1 on 1 discord call is a 1 time but I’m always giving advice in the discord when people post lists
Turdo fog commander deck tech pls
Its meta to bring at least 1 card to seal with graveyards
as a glissa player i know this too well
The golden age of Modern, when those mythics pictured were $80+ a pop
Bro, idk where you play, but in my lgs half of the games are over turns 4-8, so instants that draws cards or removal are WAY better than an enchantment that only draws me a card in the upkeep (night whisper x phyrexian arena), but it depends a lot on the deck and meta. A grixis spellslinger deck for example gains a lot more with an instant than the enchantment. The point here is that each deck needs to be curated by the player, people need to learn how to build decks first. 60 cards constructed formats are perfect for netdecking, but edh, not so much
In a spell slinger deck you are correct an instant or sorcery might be better! As for where I play. I’ve moved around a lot so I’ve played in shops all over the country and I also play online. Where are you going where games end on turn 4? Last time I went to a cEDH tournament no game ended sooner than turn 6. I think people are not playing enough removal if games end that fast
Hi
Hello 👋
Wait, was mine the first comment? Damn, nice@@thetrinketmage
Sythis
Hmm, "Casual games often go long so you should play slower, grindier value pieces over instant draw" seems like a 'cart before the horse' situation to me. Casual games would likely be a fair bit faster if people played Night's Whisper over Phyrexian Arena!
Perhaps but you can’t control for everyone else’s deck! So I just play the meta
i mostly play muldrotha and holy it cannot be fun to play against, just abusing the best permanent based control cards it the colours so i can recast with my commander and then using carapace and such to keep my commander around, combine that with multiple instant speed ways to save my graveyard from being exiled and youve got yourself a really obnoxious deck
Hakkon, Stromgald Scourge + Nameless Inversion
Not a value engine, more like a removal engine, as long as you keep the mana open, most of the time, people will give you time to set up your other engines, also opens up the chance for political favors if you remove things other players wants out of the field, i run this on my Dina, Soul Steeper
Sol ringg is never a bad draw. It always makes you go up in mana. I could imagine it could be a dead draw if you are hellbent
Just play stax
This type of gameplay wins games but not as fun. People just surrender or makes me say gg go next after a couple games with grindy decks.
I disagree I think it’s less fun when people play all in decks that run out of gas instantly!
I agree, this type of gameplay is what leads to games lasting over 1 and a half hours where I think the average player would rather have 2 games at 45ish minutes. I also think @thetrinketmage's reply to your comment ignores the actual fact that most "all in decks" are designed to either win or lose on the spot after going all in and most players who play this style of deck are well aware of that fact. Plus some of these decks that run out of gas quickly could actually be victims not of bad deck balance but the unfortunate fact that they ended up with a bad shuffle and all their card draw is actually deeper into their deck.
What!?! My playgroup loves these powerful grindy games that swing back and forth, but usually they are balanced out by having at least 1 blue-mage who is heavy on denial/interaction
@@thetrinketmage fun is very subjective then. This environment leads to players going for stax (also great and needed like blue mages) pivoting to CEDH.
Not fun when all your decks are copy paste 33% efficient removal and the rest is ramp and draw. Playing against 3 opponents and mine like this gets boring real fast.
Yes, fun is subjective so there are always gonna be differences there. But I think you are very wrong about what playing for the late game actually means. Slow grindy value engines are mostly useless in CEDH and see little to no play outside of very specific stax heavy metas. And grindy control decks are actually really good vs stax so this would promote the opposite of stax. The way to punish slow value engines is to build fast combo, which is why slow grindy decks are not super common at cedh. And how is what I said in the video even close to copy paste efficient removal? I just said play removal, I usually advocate for 10ish pieces of spot removal and a few board wipes. Plus the removal is not even close to copy paste. I gave the spellbomb as an example for an artifact deck, but there are other options here. Grave pact could be for a deck that sacrifices creatures a lot. Your removal and draw should never be copy paste whatever is efficient because you lose out on other synergy.
Good bideo. The Seasons Past tech is 👌
My Henzie deck is pretty much the embodiment of "Jund em out" super grindy, aggressive beatdown (my favorite) and lots of reanimation to make sure we're never running out of gas.
Blitz is one of the most fun mechanics I've ever played with and i always feel like theres something I can do (unless there's GY hate...that always sucks lol)