i have fun tanking, what you talking about lol. we just dont pug, pugs are the cancer of the game these days. we have a guild and a group of RL friends to play with. if we dont have people on. we dont play simple. i rather let my friends trash talk to me then some random wannabe idiot on the internet.. because i can slap my friends
I play DH tank, it's very fun gameplay BUUUUT, you got flame each time you doing a mecha wrong or you taking the wrong routes or whatever. I'm just gonna stop tww and go back to wow classic hardcore, wich is funnier overall. For me the worst part is M+ is too overhelming and hard, and you have only a little chance to get a BIS item. M+ are not so rewarding overall => don't worst the cost, at least, for a tanks or healers.
Yeah? Pugs. What do you expect? Last xpac you can faceroll an m20. Stand in shit. Not know mechanics. Now, it's expected for you to actually know the routes and how to play.
@@konekopon2865 some people might want to run a specific dungeon, maybe their key is a 2 and they don't want to up it all the way up, some people are nervous about deciding the group composition and will feel bad if the group wipes and they picked everyone, sometimes you just don't want the responsibility of picking the team, some people are just followers. there's numerous reasons one might not want to run their own key. and you ask your questions in a condescending way because?
Imagine doing a 8 or 9 Ara Kara. You have 2 melee dps and do enough total damage to clear it in time, but not much more. On the first boss, half way through when webs are everywhere, all three dps make their way to kill the hatching spiders. Before you can really damage them the affix add spawns and shields them. Key dead.
The first boss is the most insane for shadow priests. I feel like I could solo the adds while blasting the boss up to decently high levels. I could see it being a nightmare for melee though.
Or... you could CC/slow/knock the ads and send 1 dps to burst the affix w the tank while the other 2 work on the ads. Far from a brick (I've done several 9 AK runs this week and the worst run I had on that boss was somebody butt pulling some bats) To be clear I'm not saying the affix is good or doesn't need tuning - but still... no need for overreaction either
M+ is what made me really love playing the game in the last two seasons. I wasn't really a big fan of season 1 or season 2, but I absolutely had a blast in Seasons 3 and 4. Even though I've been a wow player on and off for over 15 years now, I've never actually played the game more than during this last year. That is, until Season 1 of TWW. Mythic+ is just not rewarding. Mythic track gear has been locked behind a much higher difficulty than it was previously, and the death affix makes pushing keys a pain. Tanking is also pretty wild, coming from DF where tanks were immortal CC machines, to now where we need full defensives entering into most trash pulls, particularly if not playing a Warrior or Druid. I don't mind too much, but it is a point of friction added to the already severe difficulty hike. Then for me, the problem compounds since I refuse to pug, and only play with friends and guildies. Previously I never went wanting for players ready to push keys and fill vaults, but now half of my contacts just aren't good enough to even get +10s let alone finish them, and the other half have either gone full pug, or have given up like me due to the friction making the game unfun. I've see the usual comments, saying players like me just want free loot. These people forget that I don't just turn up and buy the gear, I have to actually put the work into finishing all those keys, and by doing so I am also creating fun and a rewarding experience for all the people I play with. The fact that we get mythic gear drip fed every week thanks to this system should be of no concern to anyone interested in the health of the game, since when this system is broken, as it is today, people like me just stop playing, and I don't see how fewer players can be a good thing in an mmo. It's not like I'm using an inflated ilvl to get into ridiculously high keys and making them fail, I don't even do pugs, and I wouldn't be able to get into a 3.5k rating group anyway, even with my usual seasonal 3k. I just want to be a casual heroic raider, getting all my loot and feeling that every week I can look forward to play the mythic item lottery and potentially get a big upgrade. But now this has been placed out of reach, for many reasons I have explained, and now I only raid log, which will only hold my attention for so long. It used to be I would play 4 months of every season, on 4 or 5 characters, entertaining myself by filling different roles and experiencing different classes and specs, but now I might not make it 3 weeks. I feel like that's a problem with the game.
Amen. I haven’t even had enough time to really get into playing my alts yet because I’ve been focusing on getting dedicated people to run M+ and just haven’t been having nearly as much fun as DF season 3 & 4
@@WoWatNight I'm not someone who keeps stats or anything, but I do have a bunch of discords of guilds and friends groups I have played with in the past. Back is Season 3, I could log on at pretty much any time and find at least one group of people running weekly keys. During week ends most of those channels would be full of people, and I would be hopping from one to the other as players rotated to fill roles. Now there are only 2 of those discords still active, and the only time they see activity is during raid nights. I hardly see anyone grouping up for M+, and it's just a sad vindication of my own feelings on the season.
Casual heroic raiders don't need Myth track gear for anything...other than pushing very high keys. If you're pushing very high keys you'll get Myth track gear which will let you push higher.
I think the worst aspect of this season is they completely failed on all the goals they outlined when they nerfed tanks in the last few weeks of the beta. They said they wanted to reduce spiky dmg but this is probably atleast tied with some of the worst spiky dmg we've ever had in M+. I've been healing a lot this season and basically with a single mistake somebody is dead in some situations and its just awful. Healing has become stressful and I feel like I have zero agency. I didn't heal in Dragonflight much but heard it was pretty bad too, but atleast tanks could be self sufficient and it would allow me to focus on healing the DPS who might take 90% of their life in a single hit if they mess up. I have no doubt that organized groups are mostly chilling this season, but its an absolute trainwreck if you do any sort of pugging. Dungeons are so overloaded with mechanics that I mean I don't expect someone who only has a few hours a week to play to memorize all 8 dungeons down to their individual trash packs, but missing a kick can be SO brutal this season with the spikes of dmg.
The tank nerfs (in combination with the attempt to flatten damage spikes which literally did the exact opposite) caused 75% of the problems this season. Id say another 10% is the dungeons just being overtuned with stupid amounts of mechanics and multiple dangerous casters in each mob pack. 10% being stuns only temporarily stopping casts (this shit is retarded and seriously pisses me off), and the rest are players joining keys that they shouldn’t be in. Not knowing mechanics, and not realizing a 5 is now a 15.
And exactly what was said at the time too - To say folk were dubious on that promise is a /slight/ understatement; It was fed back in every way as a bad move, and on they went anyway. And Lo and Behold would you believe it? They've failed to deliver.
The problem is M+ is basically failing on all levels of its content. There is virtually no reason to run low keys as delve rewards are vastly superior and 8 delves can optimized to be done in like an hour or so, entering the season almost every character had already outgeared keys up till say 6 or so. For mid keys, where the majority of the playerbase would be playing at, the reward structure/overall tuning is too difficult, creating a wall where players don't access to gilded crests to progress further and turning the majority of people away from m+ (This is by far the biggest failure). At high keys (10-11s) 15s death penalty and Tyrannical + Fort effectively makes it so that more than few deaths in a run bricks the key resulting in most of these being left as soon as a mistake happens instead of having enough counterplay to make more aggressive pulls to still complete the dungeon in time. At the title pusher level, there is such a significant wall at 12, combined with 15s deaths that once you've filled with all 11s and maybe a 12 or two of the easier dungeons, you're effectively walled out of progression from a numbers perspective since the squish has effectively made jumping from 11 to 12 like jumping 3-4 key levels in the past system.
The sad part is, if you can’t do 9s reliably and don’t get myth crests, there’s little reason to go past 4s. Maxed out gear from 4s = heroic track gear from 7+ without myth crests.
@@RatatoeskrrrIt honestly doesn’t matter if you or I believe people should have access to certain gear. Between delves and vault people get hero track gear extremely fast. If you don’t give them a reasonable pathway beyond that and they effectively reach their gear soft cap 4 weeks into the season, they will stop playing. We don’t have to speculate about it, we know from looking back at SL season 1.
The level 7 affix encourages disbands. Everyone complained about the old affixes and they replaced them with worse ones. It seems if you weren’t doing 10s week one, you’re screwed. Because pugs in low keys can’t do mechs and failure is too punishing. They also nerfed tanks so bear or warrior are the only tanks which give you an easier time in pugs. It’s also exposing bad healers and now they have to keep an eye on tanks and healing big amounts of burst damage to the group and healing just isn’t fun. It’s not fun at all. It’s like they just designed this season to waste our time, because the odds in timing or even completing a key is pretty low in pugs right now. Plus you can get far into a key just for it to disband because either the death penalty or a boss takes too long to kill. It also seems 2 wipes on a boss and the key is done.
I wasn’t doing 10s week one, I play a blood DK as well. On a +9 I still time keys with a full group wipe, sometimes with 10 deaths. I also pug groups. I’ve timed over 80-100 keys in the last 3 weeks and now have an IO of 2400 now. The biggest problem right now is people just don’t do mechanics, which are quite abundant in all content and that’s really it in my opinion.
I think the other problem with healing right now is that three specs are just being sidelined entirely. Disco is a mess and Mistweaver and Resto Druids simply cannot compete because their numbers are too low. Worse still, Restos need a fundamental rework to make them work in this state. It's all Shamans, Holies and Pallys right now, with the occasional Evoker thrown in there.
Problem is, devs don't play their own game. 1. Get rid of the death affix. Give all dungeons +10% extra time as baseline when you reach +7 take that 10% away as part of the challenge. 2. Tyrannical should not give extra health to bosses, this has always been the main issue. Give bosses a soak or an extra ability that only deals dmg if you ignore it. 3. More different crests like in season 3 DF or increase weekly cap to 120 instead of 90. 4. Crafting costs down from 45->30 and 90->60 crests. 5. Bad luck protection currency on +10 keys (need to finish 15 +10 to purchase a hero track item from vendor) 6. Crests reward should go from 0-3 / 4-7 / 7-10 / 10 the bad luck protection item in additon. This game was meant to shift into alt friendliness, however upgrading your alts gear has never been more grindy and difficult. Players will hit their wall in M+ faster this way, but they won't burn out but rather try a new class. I wanna feel as if I was playing a game, not working.
Taking conclusion about people you don't know is not the brightest move to prove a point. My next post would have been about how great it feels to be able to play the game with more classes and specs without grinding months :) what drew me to WoW in the first place was the fun gameplay and class diversity
@@Ratatoeskrrrthat’s really blizzard’s fault if that happens. It means their content isn’t engaging enough to last more than 3 months. Timegating takes the pressure off them. As paying customers we absolutely NEED to keep that pressure on them. Plus with reference to what the other guy was saying with regards to crests and alt friendliness..remember what they said at the war within announcement : respect players’ time. Having to run 40 dungeons (or whatever that number is, someone did the calculation ) to upgrade one toon doesn’t sound particularly respectful of our time
@@Ratatoeskrrr its infinite scaling though, there’s always a point where it gets difficult no matter how good or max geared. With DF s3 & 4 at least, I would chase the somewhat harder keys for my skill level when aiming for my 3.3k tank IO. But for GV slots and farming specific items for specific slots i could just faceroll 8s. My point being - if you found the old philosophy ‘boring’ as a tank and wanted some adrenaline, there was always a key level that could challenge you. If you didn’t like DPSing as a healer, you could do 0 dps and the key timer would likely still be fine (problem for healing wasn’t tanks, it’s DPS defensives vs one shots - again, onus is on Blizzard for making healing completely miserable in the opposite direction now). So in the DF scenario - tanks and healers would likely continue playing tanks and healers. In the war within scenario, u now have some of us (myself included) who have retired our healers and tank here and there just for variety. Ie smaller tank and healer pool for queues, good job Blizzard. I dont have the stat to back this up, keeping in mind being a new expac there’s likely a bigger playerbase than s3 s4 DF, but i do expect that this will bear out in due time if they dont change things back. In the midst of all this tuning philosophy too, is basically the argument of what level of challenge makes one ‘worthy’ of the categories of rewards, ie, the mindset that - if you aren’t good enough to do a 10 you dont ‘deserve’ to get myth track. I think that this is needlessly elitist - people who are more skilled and seek the grind and the challenge will always get their gear faster anyways as they have mythic raid access, the rest will get it once a week thru GV. That balance seemed ‘more’ fine in DF, vs now where it’s seemingly a lot harder for pure PUG groups. My RL friend group that plays m+ together looks at it this way and im sure we’re not alone - get gear to play the game, not play the game to get gear..it’s not 2004 anymore. Give us our myth track and get out of the way, let us see where’s our own limit IO wise. As to the dg count, i looked it back up - nerftankTV’s tweet on 1st Oct : ‘gilded and ruined crest cap are both increasing to 360 this reset. It would take a new character 60 dungeons to cap both’ - and that’s assuming no depletes. In the context of alt gearing once the main is done, it does seem disrespectful of our time 🤷♂️ Of course, i don’t have the answer as to what the balance should be, nor am i saying we should be able to faceroll 10s in week 1 or 2. There’s a reasonable balance somewhere, and currently a lot of us dont feel that we are at that point, nor are we particularly enjoying the process
@@Ratatoeskrrr thank you, I appreciate your civility too. with regards to avg player skill level, i mean sure, once ilvls stabilized i saw weeks back in DF where ppl doing 8s were so bad my 10-14s felt easier. But then i also did have the experience that ppl at 15-16s were again so much better that it felt easier than my 10-14s. so i guess its all relative and a baseline of who's worthy for endgame gear can be kind of hard to pin down. So in that context id rather err to the side of give everyone gear, let IO score sort us out, and ill accept the risk of a shitty 8 every now and then...now its a 10, a number's just a number but i think the difficulty scaling felt better in DF for sure. Prob the death timer affix is too punishing maybe. As to healing, i just see Blizz's solution to the healing problem as superbad and ass backwards - people complained about oneshots, they turned every fight and challenge into halls of infusion mage boss - everything's literally 5-man rot damage now. Reeks of laziness - i guess with Microsoft's layoffs they dont have enuff people to look at pruning defensives and reducing the # or makeup of caster packs in dungeons. But hey ive been giving them a $15 sub for almost 20 years and probably thousands of dollars in overwatch and diablo lootboxes and WoW shop mogs and mounts, so im allowed to not care. And the tuning is so wild - 50% and 100% swings of the bat back and forth on various classes and specs, i can understand that resto druid will be weaker at expac start when haste and versa levels are lower..but what are they even doing lmao
this is so stupid. i can't believe someone said what you just said. bad luck protection? WTF. you want more time, more crests, lower the price of crests and easier affixes? wtf did i just read
The squish + gearing track has basically dragged a huge number of players who used to play at around +10 (pre-squish) now be functionally forced to play +20s; where they simply don't have the skill to compete. This enrages the players that belong, demoralize the players that don't and spiral into a toxicity loop so deep it would be impossible to drag the community out of it without massive changes. Mythic Track alone isn't the issue, but gilded being required for heroic track is. If you are a heroic progression tier player (the overwhelming majority), it is entirely likely you have capped all your gear at 619. You can't consistently clear the last two bosses on heroic for the gilded crests, you can't do +10s to get the crests, and thus you quite literally are simply gear capped. No one accepts this, all players seek to upgrade their gear, especially after only three weeks of the expansion. So they MUST step into +10s, their guild is still trying to clear Queen, they NEED the crests for upgrades. So they brick keys over, and over, and over, and over and enrage both themselves and the hardcore players become further elitist to wall themselves from this unqualified player base, further polarizing the community into a toxic spiral. If things aren't adjusted and honestly quite soon, this will blow up in Blizzards face.
@@HeinousinAppearance Honestly the whole gear rank system is BS anyway. I have had this idea since when they first introduced crests, Why does gear have a rank system since we have crests now? Why? Why Blizz why? Gear would be so much better if I could get the Ara Kara trink from a 5 and be able to upgrade it all the way to 636. Some will say but then you won't do that dungeon anymore or you will be geared and not wanna grind and quit till next season. To which I say "wtf do u mean u still have to grind the crests to upgrade that gear". All this change does is make gearing feel better, instead of hoping that ur BiS will drop again on a higher track u will already have it. U will still have to spend the same amount of time in M+ or raids to upgrade it. It would make gearing feel better and make less guild loot drama from raids.
i was running 9's on resto shaman and got burned out, imho this is probably the worst M+ season iv'e run so far, like i dont even wanna log in to fill out my vault i dont have the motivation
The problem is the damage is way, WAY too bursty for healers. One mistake from a DPS and someone is extremely likely to die. In previous seasons you constantly had something to do because damage was always coming in. Now you get a ton of downtime and then a gigantic amount of burst. Basically everyone's dying at once and you have to pop a bunch of stuff to keep up. The spikes are the problem and it's keeping healers stressed out never quite knowing when they're going to have to hit all their cooldowns and burst everyone back up. Plus bad tanks make this even worse when they don't know how to use all of their abilities. If you get a good tank it can seriously be a group changer for healers.
@@xvx4848 agreed, having to use a huge cd because a dps/tank didn’t use a defensive doesn’t feel good, walking into a boss fight with everything on cooldown knowing burst damage is incoming and not having anyway to respond to it just feels…….like shit??? The double cast/recast after interrupting mobs is problematic, the overlap in burst damage from mobs is ass, wasting interrupts, having no real way to significantly get the group to full health before more aoe damage comes out is garbage.
@@In_Dog_We_Trustdude the fact that it’s even possible for things like the Dawnbreaker 2nd boss main damage mechanics (orb explode plus normal aoe) to happen within 3 GCDs of one another is insane for healers 😂. Like even if you do the orb perfectly, there is literally no time to heal people before the tick one shots most of them on an 11, when they overlap like that.
@@midnull6009 don’t play so much??? I already pulled my sub, I haven’t played in almost 2 weeks also how is this a “you” problem?? If this was only a “me”problem then bigger content creators that only do mythics like wouldn’t be posting about it, also this isn’t only them posting about it’s all over Reddit and in bnet forums…..try telling them it’s only a “them” problem and see how they respond, mythics is a snooze fest right now
Please please add myth track items into normal drop pool of m+, not just inside the vault for 1 rng item a week. I would be even fine, if they put it inside a +12, but atleast there is an option to get myth track items inside m+ other than vault. I would actually suggest to get a myth track items from dungeons from +10 onwards. Like why we have a champion gear dropped from +2 and +10 still just dropps hero track? Even though we get 3 types of crests on this scale.
Key depletion should be remove for good. How am i suppose to learn to heal X fight if you lower the difficulty instead of letting me practice that difficulty.
I'm a main monk brewmaster and no one accepts me in M+ groups and if I create the group no one joins. Thank you blizzard for destroying my class and ruining my fun!
Actually I have been having fun tanking this season but healing is in the worst state I've seen in years. Damage is far too bursty rather than just constant like it was in previous seasons. Healers in previous seasons always had something to do but now they're just sitting around waiting for the next huge burst to come out and they have to pop everything.
@xvx4848 this is flat wrong, Shadowlands and DF every healer complained about spike damage, now it's all rot damage and it sucks, cause spike damage you could live with personals. Rot requires healers to do constant throughput and it's terrible. Healers however literally complained this into existence. You get either spike or rot, if you have neither you have no damage going out, so why have a healer?
No one ask for the tank nerf. No one was happy after the tank nerf. if anything the tank wanted was some buff cus vdh dominated every season in dragon flight and shadow land.
@@curcicreations Yeah I'm sure people love Grim Batol, City of Threads, Stonevault and Dawnbreaker. And that's probably better than the TWW dungeons that didn't make season 1, minus, maybe, Rookery. Imagine dark cleft or the brewery.
No. If ppl wanna do mythics it's up to them to look shit up. They already have follower dungeons....they should do those and take 5 mins to see a small difference between heroic vs mythic. It's usually just 1 thing. Ppl who fail at mythics faceroll heroics and not learn anything....
M+ 9s being needed for Gilded Crests is the worst change they've made. Clearly some bean counter thought it would improve retention and was very wrong. Getting someone in leadership to admit a failure when promotions and annual reviews are performance based is very difficult.
Add myth track being 6 stages and the cost for myth upgrade for crafted gear going from 60 to 90 crests. Instead of extending how long they can people on the gear grind treadmill, this leads to a large number looking at the amount of runs required to cap stuff and conclude: “Nah, I’m fine.”
@@Sly_404 I'm going to be all 619 with a 636 shield by the time I get KSH. Doing all 10s/11 and still having un-upgraded gear because of the gilded crest drip feed is demotivating
@@devlin1991 i know they made that change. I dont know how that changes anything. Arent their still players gated out of 8s cuz they only have 7s timed and no myth gear? And if they made it 7 wouldnt the same thing be true for people stuck in 6s?
Im playing as DISC Priest and have some ideas, why PUG's is rought right now in M+: 1. To many changes for one season. Tank survivability nerfs, progression system kinda bad (you cant get enough gear to even start farming +9 in PUGs), CC nerfs (which is a lot btw) and new affixes sometimes generate INSANE difficulty even on +7. For example - good luck killing second or third boss in NW with lady ghost affiix or soak balls in GB. Уou cant eve do anything about that. 2. Gold costs are HUGE. Seriously, 15-20k for weapon chant? Rings are soo hard to chant - 6k for ring chant + 15k for sockets + ~8 for gems x2. ~100-120k for Omen Weapon + Wrist? Man, how can average player even farm that amount of gold at the start of the season? ->->-> BOOM, almost nobody doing that. Also, Flasks + Food + Oil = ~1k gold PER 1-2 dungeons. WTF!? 3. Not fair dungeon pool. Dungeon pool is fun, dont get me wrong, i like all bosses and trash BUT many healers just dont have answers for some situations. To many Poison things, to many casters and so much room for average PUG player to make a mistake and not every healer have decent "oh shit button" to save the day. 4. Difficulty is much much higher, compared to DF S4. This is a personal feeling, but i have hard time doing my +7 keys in PUGS because so many things can go wrong and so many times it does. And again, dont get me wrong, i like difficult things BUT not every PUG player like it too and this things start happening to early this season. And just calculate how much power ppl lost in the dungeons this season: average ilvl is lower (progression nerf) + no item chants (gold cost) + no food and consumables (gold cost) + tanks are squisher (lower pulls).
My friends usually play expansions for about 6 months after release and then get bored and go to other games, this expansion however most of them have quit already after just 6 WEEKS. The state of M+ is atrocious. Healers are stressed, tanks are stressed, gear progress is wonky and borderline non-existent. The best way to gear right now is to do tier 8 Delves for vault and then do +4 or above M+ for currency to upgrade gear. Last season I had Keystone Master and all my portals done within 2 months, this expansion I can't even think about doing a +10 and I'm 615 ilevel. Keep in mind not even the best players in the entire WORLD have Keystone Master right now as most have barely reached +13 and +14. I feel like the dungeons need a flat blanket nerf of about 20% to put them in line with the difficulty of previous seasons, but I'm not entirely sure this would fix everything and they might have to go even further. I also feel like they need to add a few more tiers for Delves that can earn you Myth level gear in your vault. But Delves are a whole separate issue because they're quickly becoming Choreghast again.
That's pretty unfortunate, but yeah, it is a normal response to a game being massively overtuned. If you don't already have a major investment in WoW, why would you stick around and grind through the pain?
Man im so sick of delves already lol seriously tedious and they feel like such a waste of time. Yes you get high level gear but its random. I keep getting cloaks or pieces that are optimized completely wrong for my class/spec.
I heal and i love it tbh. Healing is only stressful if the group cant put a simple stun rotation or interrupt. Its easy when everyone uses all their abilities/deff cds smart and i think it should be this way. Why care about the difficulty when there is always a key low enough for your skill ?
@@Gyllrexxar the issue is with pugs your going to get someone to make a mistake, the mistake is punished too hard. OK if your doing the highest of the high keys going for title but when 6 and 7 is bricking due to one person causing a wipe thats not a good feeling
Absolutely agree the reward structure is incredibly off and it's making the other issues more problematic I would say this is actually a pull the ripcord fix it now moment rather than a wait for 11.0.5. Do I think fort+tyran at a 10 is good design? not really but if it was only going to affect me for portal keys mid way through the season it might actually be ok but for many heroic raiders keys there is already 0 reward if you can't reliably do 9 or 10.
As a tank I’ve been having an absolute blast. I feel like I’m directly responsible for the level of fun our group has and that makes each dungeon so much more exciting. The learning curve is high but it feels so rewarding to accomplish each higher key. And yes I’m pugging it up.
Same. As a healer too. These ppl who complain are used to facerolling and not knowing fights or mechanics. They should still to follower dungeons...cuz it's made for ppl just like them.
Imagine being the person that comes up with Tyranical and Fortified when the health and damage of everything already goes up with key level. It's genius!
@@mckriel Lol he is right tho. Why are they even affixes anymore? They can just buff the adds and boss by the same amount as the affixes then remove them. Also those 2 affixes was originally there to make your in-game io go up. But know that both are active every week what's the point of them even being a affix?
I don't do Mythic raids at all as I don't care for raiding in general but I also don't have a weekly schedule that allows me to show up at the same time every single week. M+ is the content I enjoy but I'm a tank who timed a +9 in week 2 I can't find a group because of my item level is now far below what mythic raiders have. Without +9's I can't even cap my heroic gear let alone get to the point where I am relying on RNG to provide me a single mythic piece each week. I usually love M+ but the inability to advance and falling farther and farther behind every week now despite pushing harder in weeks one and two than I have ever done has left me with no desire to even play the game as its what I'm here for. I'll stick around for the anniversary than I think I might take a break till it gets fixed. I have no idea what I'm going to fill my time with as this is the only game I play. I just know I'm not having fun here and I'm not going to pay to be frustrated. Which I guess is something else. I'm from the midwest and we tend to be midwest nice but even I've started to get snippy at people and have had to bite my tongue because of people making mistakes. In a normal season in a +21 or better someone making a mistake and killing the key isn't a big deal, everyone has homework keys you just go again. The problem now is everyones homework keys is seemingly in the +7 - +9 bracket and having to push a key back to a +9 again so you can get the rewards you need is frustrating beyond belief. Anyway I think I'm about done with it all. Hope they fix it before they loose to many subs although I don't really know how many M+ players there really are.
anniversary and pvp and waiting is my plan too i dont wanna be angry or sad about the incompetence of an 15 year old content that is really fucked up by ppl they build but dont use /played that product.
M+ has the same problem its always had. The same quality of players can't play together. Neither the M+ score nor the ilvl accurately reflect the quality of the player. It needs to also capture deaths, interrupts, DPS, CD usage, etc. This is always the root cause of the problem especially in pugging.
Unfortunately, stats like that are also not a good judge of the whole picture. You wouldn't want to get declined forever because you had a few bad days. Or maybe some bad ISP service. It could be anything.
Delves giving 616 rewards to people who shouldn't even sniff a +2 key doesn't help in the lower keys bracket lol. And the upper keys bracket is full of Mythic raiders reaping the rewards Blizzard is handing them simply because Mythic raider. So they simply outgear the people who are only doing M+ and heroic raids for tier and trinks wpns. Then trying to push keys in their Goodwill gear. The Mythic raiders are saving tons of crests through gear ilvl and saving them upgrades. M+ only bro's out on the streets struggling to push past 620 ilvl and get into keys.
@@WoWatNight I wouldn't suggest that the score goes down for a bad run, I would say that there are several tiers of score for each level. Instead of just getting the same points based on a timed key or not, you would get score depending on how well you did. If you get 20 points for the run and your team mate gets 100, the system could say, "To increase your score further, interrupt more, die less, do more dps, etc". That way someone who has a 2k rating could play with other players who are 2k and they would know they are capable of doing 7+s effectively.
I played in both Vanilla raids when the difficulty was really low although player knowledge was low too, and I’ve done Mythic raids including mythic Sylvanas back in SL. Reflecting on the differences, Vanilla was actually better because you could befriend almost anyone on the server, and now you have to find precisely 19 other individuals who are nearly perfect at the game. M+ was a slight reprieve from this where you could get mythic raid gear without taking a 2nd full time job, but that seems to have come to an end too. TWW started off strong, but now I’m considering playing Throne and Liberty for the rest of the year.
@@Soulessdeeds personaly, i pugged my way up to 10s in the first week, with 0 raid loot, or even a single raid boss kill (in any dificulty). Its possible to do it, but i see the problem why the players are stucked at lower difficulties. Its not easy. And the history of the game does not help this time, because in the past, if you did not get your myth trach gear from the vault (or max m+ chest), you are just a "bad player". It's simply not accepted within the player base to get stuck on a heroic-level M+ key, while at the same time, it's accepted to be stuck on a heroic-level raid. This is a contradiction that I think Blizzard should somehow resolve. (Don't get me wrong, I would like M+ to be a fully-fledged pillar of the game and not just a support for raiding.)
As someone who has SOLELY TANKED or HEALED AND done M+ & HC raiding pugging since Legion, I got 2.5k in S2/S3 in DF. I can’t get past a key level of 4 in WWI because the keys are horrendously terrible, tanks are cucked and if one player screws up minorly, the mechanics kills everyone and then everyone loses their mind and leaves. Where as Delves mean I can enjoy the game. I love M+ and HC pugging but this season is the worst ever.
@@craynak did 10 on prot paladin second week while its bottom tier rn , your exagerating or your bad and need to actualy save cds for mob tank busters and dangerous pulls , where in df you were using cds for actual no reason and survive anyway cause your too tanky even without cds , now u have to actualy do cd management , crazy right , u have to actualy think sheeeeesh.
@@sharkstaint1373 pretty stupid calling him bad when a group consists of 5 people. Congrats on playing your pally with the first most dedicated wave of players (that interrupt) the first couple of weeks.
@@immodsr9348 i played on pugs u weirdo , did u assume im on the top 10 ladder ? u smoking or something , im a literal solo player since bfa , and i can do shit by trying , i don't complain , i do stuff and wait for updates , and you guys instead of trying and make your own keys cause its way easier to pick good comps and good players you enter some random dude key that is clueless and can't time it instead of pushing your key , i got my key from +2 to 9 in two weeks barely spaming stuff.
Just how bad brewmaster is compared to other tanks killed it for me. The damage intake is THROUGH THE ROOF compared to other tanks and we don’t have self sustain till midway through pulls due to expel harm and celestial scaling with damage taken. This is while I could have an easier time playing a prot warrior which just doesn’t take damage at all Then the monk community discord is so used to monk being ridiculously awful that they’re snorting copium about how “good” monk feels right now.
Man that monk discord is a joke! I dont understand how they cope so jard, i think they think they are being “elite” by sayingits not that bad, but i just think they have no clie what they are saying sometimes. Monks are severely undertuned
I agree. The fun factor is just not there anymore at least for me playing a monk. I feel like I'm just the goofy mascot of the raid group. I have to put in 3x more work just to get respectable results while our warrior is over there playing solitaire while tanking. Our damage feels bad as well. I'm currently working on a dh.
ive failed more keys this season than s2,s3 and s4 combined, they have until my acc runs out to fix this shit to feel more akin to s3 or s4 in terms of enjoyment
Those Xalatath affix sounds you’ve mentioned are driving me nuts as well lol. They are much louder than other sounds in the game. I’ve actually gone through the wowhead sounds database and tried adding the bulk of them to a blacklist in the leatrix plus addon. I’ll probably end up working on a small addon or weakaura to disable them all and then call it XalatathSissyDisabler because I’m tired of hearing her say “become who you truly are” as if I’m browsing a WTMYWTSC thread
I absolutely adore pushing in M+ atm, despite its many, many problems (that I have been very vocal about in some Reddit posts by other people) because I simply love TWW. The biggest problem right now is clearly the reward structure in M+ (hero items should start dropping at +6, gilded crests at +8 and myth items at +9, imho), followed by some dungeons being massively overtuned, especially the Stonevault.
Nerfing Tanks serf sustain healing and many of the keys this season are just a pain to tank. It's just a recipe for making a already hard to find role even harder to find. Allot of Ret paly's in the game right now. And the VAST majority of them avoid tanking because Prot paly is turbo dog crap right now. People actively decline you if you try to que to their keys as prot paly. But will take you if your ret. Just wild to see right now.
I completely agree with you. Prot paladin‘s niche in pushing keys with randoms (or in general) is completely dead now. If you start off-healing your dd‘s you‘ll go oom and the Spike dmg in higher keys is so extremely overtuned that Bosses and trashpacks will just 1 shot you if you don‘t block… nice rng. There are so many moments where i am not AT ALL in control of the Situation it’s ridicoulus…
They somehow have unlearned things SL and DF taught them. Limiting gear accessibility as they did first SL season just kills the game for a large part of the player base. No, the game doesn’t owe anyone big ticket items but if the entire max level gameplay comes down to gear progression, you better make sure the carrot on the stick is placed right at the tip of a players nose but not miles away. 2nd them changing when fortified and tyrannical kicks in was explained as a means to make transition from one key level to the next more linear. The new affix structure does the very opposite, you hitting a brick wall at 10/12.
Absolutely. People want to have fun with their leisure time, and gating that behind difficulty and time is a really bad strategy for long-term player retention.
As someone who is usually a "get my portals by the end of the season" and play several characters, each season. I'm currently stuck on 5s as a tank, because the pugs I'm getting can not beat the DPS checks on some of the bosses on tyrannicals. There are a number of bosses where it feels like the right amount of dps from the 3 dps needs to be about 700k each on tyrannical... and they just don't have the throughput in the 610-615ilvl gear that they have to be in the 4-6 bracket.
Granted I may be biased because I play prot warrior (pretty meta) and brewmaster (designed to be the least spikey damage taken) but I think tank survivability is just fine. If you walk into a pack with no minor defensive / mitigation button up you get slapped around at high keys but it's a pretty easy skill to learn to for example charge to the closest mob in the pack so you are still in front of the mobs and not getting hit in the back then hit shield block first global (and every other tank spec has a version of this). The real issue with this season as someone who plays healer also is that a lot of mechanics literally require your DPS to know how to play and use defensives which has never been required of them outside high keys in the past. You could get to ksm pretty easy the past few xpacs as a DPS never hitting a defensive once and be fine but now when you get to around +6 you have to actually know that you can't just raw dog something like the dot on siege last boss if your healer dispelled the other debuff first, and there's several of these per dungeon. Your healer can save you a couple times but when they're out of CDs DPS start dropping like flies when it comes on them to use a personal or die.
@@WoWatNight 8s and 9s and a single untimed 10 since he's my alt but I also am pretty poorly geared at 610. You're definitely more reliant on getting some amount of healing and I do have to kite sometimes but stagger makes it so you don't insta floor pov like some other tanks in my experience.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head of everything im experiencing right now. As someone who loved doing dragonflight mythics only in pugs (i dont raid), and pushing towards +20 (or now +10) for fun, its insane how punishing even something like even a +4 can be now. Add in the death penalty at 7 and its totally rediculous, considering you can get better gear from doing delves right now (even if you cant upgrade them). Ive never seen such toxicity in the game.. so much that im struggling to want to go right now (i consider myself to be an above average player) Im really hoping they fix what state this is in, because im really enjoying expansion a lot otherwise.. but i miss my end game mythics that arent 40 mins of looking for a group to have it disband before the first boss.
I'm only playing up to heroic raid, and low M+, and for me I'm pretty happy with 619 ilvl being the reasonable cap for gear I can achieve for the content I'm doing. In relation to the discussion about M+ difficulty though, my primary concern is the rewards of low M+ in relation to delves. Believe this won't happen in future patches, but having 12+ coffer keys to use on tier 8 the first week it was available, was far too many, and should've been capped so we'd be forced to spend them early. The quality of the rewards for delves (the champ gear) is fine by me, but they also need to fix delves to be unique from dungeons by specifically designing them to be harder in a group than solo. (i.e. dungeons already get easier with more players, delves aren't different if they follow the same scaling pattern) All this to say, that the rewards of running low M+ felt unrewarding in relation to delves.
I feel the same way as a Delve only player. I'm fine with 619 and will keep playing on my main and four alts even after I have them all geared to that level. 619 is more than enough to do anything in the game and I'll be doing heroic raid pugs as well..
my main issue with the new affixes is xalatath does not shut up. The only option to silence her is to make the whole game go to silence. But in this game, everything is silent, even the WA's and boss mods. I dont mind the 1 voice line, because i dont want to hear it. I want the basic wow voice lines and sounds silent during a m+ run.
People forget that WoW is a loot based game… spending a couple hours on a few keys, half deplete you can net 5/10 crests and no loot. Not to mention how stressful those hours were. That kind of reward can burn people out. They continually make the game towards the top 1%.
Agree with everything you've said here. IMO this is all partially intended. First; they always ignore a moderate amount of live issues. Second; Delvs is the new hot thing, and they want to push people into delvs. M+ being in shambles is and easy "win" to push players who will be playing WoW anyways into the thing they can do more consistently. Third; they seem to design philosophy for dungeons and raid that they have to be more complicated and difficult than the previous cycle. I've considered myself a pretty avid M+ player primarily playing tank and heals in the groupfinder pug scene and I've been completely turned off for M+ since season start. On a side note, world content including delvs has been a blast for my dps alts that hardly see game play in past expansions.
I tend to play M+ semi-hard core, I used to like pushing with into higher keys with low gear just to see how far I can get, this season I've slowly moved my way up in keys as my gear got higher... like I'm 610 this week on my warrior and pally, and still don't feel comfortable Tanking anything higher than a 5 or 6. tanking for has been the most frustrating and un rewording experience since I started in legion. I've honestly considered calling it quits this season and waiting to see if they fix M+ for season before I come back. the lack any real mitigation trinkets for tanks this season also killed it for for me.
genuine dislike that after week one m0 was obsolescing due to delves and that we only got 8 dungeons for season 1 when the m0s were clearly good and fun current content. people are having trouble with the dark orb mechanic on dawnbreaker 3-4 weeks in lol. give keys from 0 just it's not great, but at least it's not cata p1
Another thing to add is the key drop chance. It feels like NW keys drop from the vault/rerolls more than any other, while the fun ones like DB are rather rare.
I also love to play alone. With randoms. I dislike the familiarity of a coordinated group. And would rather be pleasantly surprised by strangers. I’ve found that +14 or around there is my absolute stopping point. As not many strangers will advertise available groups for higher keys on lfg. Besides my own. But i still love the experience during an expansion. Feels like a true solo queue experience.
I agree on the feedback regarding keylvl range for myth track/crests and the +7 affix. What I don't get is the demand for more mechanics instead of scaling affixes. How does this improve the M+ experience? Do you want to drive away even more players? 15-20 minute runs? Should trash packs fall over after 10 seconds regardless of difficulty? The fastest M+ dungeon ever - Maw of Souls - had an 18 minute timer, 3 bosses and maybe 50 trash mobs. A 15 minute instance would be nearly non-existant as such. Also it would tolerate even less failures/wipes leading to runbacks. The addition of the equivalent of 2 extra keylvls at 12 is irrelevant. If you had spend any time on looking at the keylvl ceiling of the past you should be well aware that the first 5 keylvls past vault cap were always super irrelevant. They never gave extra benefits and the top rating for seasonal finish started way beyond that. If you go full armchair dev, at least think about your suggestions for more than 5 minutes. Also: The 4 crest types are irrelevant or rather never relevant at the same time since you will only ever be dealing with 2 at best at any time during gearing.
100% agree. They could leave the crest caps if they shift the dungeon rewards back to DF breakpoints. Think that would be a happy medium and a good Segway to help people gear up for higher content
Seriously, if they keep improving Delves and solo queue rated RBGs, I'm fine with sticking with those as my main gameplay loops. That and some random heroic raid pugging.
I wonder if the biggest influences to this season are just knee jerk reactions to the way that M+ was being played. Especially at a higher end. VDH/AoE stops solving all of the interrupts, resulted in the casting changes. Tanks being far too survivable kneecaped into being somewhat shaky. Players timing dungeons like RLP despite dying 15+ times. giving us the new Challenger's Peril affix. High end key pushers flexing really hard on 30+ keys, resulting in difficulty tuned for those guys. healers going DPS on the first bosses of dungeons and then switching back. Meaning we need crushing amounts on damage on all bosses! As a healer this season (PresEvoker) I play the russian roulette as a PuG healer. I feel like at any moment my entire group can end up being less than 1 GCD from evaporating. Which, feels uhhhh, stressful. Will that tank properly mitigate? Who knows! Oh, this tank is pulling these packs together like a psycho! Oh he's at 30%, and 70+yds away! Oh that DD got clipped by one of the many many many telegraphs going out. He's at 10%. BTW 3 seconds until the boss starts burning the whole group to the ground. The stated goal of the +7 affix was something along the lines of punishing dps who don't press defensives....but it mostly punishes healers who don't have viper reflexes. I think the new Xalatath affixes are...alright. They get people to move around in different ways, everyone contributes to them. I think they should be less punishing for failing them, because there are simply too many situations where they aren't feasible to deal with. Orbs spawning across the room, or in void zones. or during overlaps, etc. I think the craziest part of this season is that Siege of Boralus, the worst dungeon in every single season (by data) it has ever been, in isn't even the hardest of the bunch. Despite being a janky awful mess.
Oh, most definitely. This season is an overreaction to S4 VDH and Dragonflight M+ in general. Huge missteps in this expansion because of mistakes made in the last one. That's the Blizzard Difference!!
@@WoWatNight If Blizzard tuning was a chef at a restaurant. he would either forget to season your dish, or dump enough salt onto your plate to make the Dead Sea jealous.
You're not telling the whole story. You could be a 500 rated player trying to pug into 10s also quick fix push your own key up that way you get into every key
so far my biggest complaint about mythic plus as a tank is the spike damage from auto from mobs, had it a few times when im pulling and as i get all the mobs together and watching my health go from 100% to 30% in half a second doesn't feel good, it feels like i take more damage from autos then any other mechanic that isnt meant to be a wipe mechanic i also wish they push up the numbers on the keys close to back where they were, make 15's the current 10 and so on giving the low keys a chance to learn for other players instead of being punished right away there is also the people leaving and more in general toxic people but i feel like that is talked to death at this point
People will not learn if the key is too low tho, reason is: incoming raid wide dmg or single target one shot does not do enough dmg for people to realise. You need to player higher keys to understand what will kill you and the team
Also doesn’t help that you have a dungeon like Dawnbreaker where you can just get stuck randomly and be unable to do anything about it. Get stuck in ship, brick key.
Legit, best change they could make is "key does not deplete if you clear the dungeon/you have X tries until it depletes". As it stands, past a certain level it encourages people to be extremely toxic as each failure (especially a wipe with the -15 timer penalty) can brick a key. 5 x 15 = 75 seconds. Aside from timer penalty, you also have the fact that mobs hit like fucking trucks making tanking not fun at any level. Dawnbreaker, for example, the adds on the second zepplin (the 3 dudes) will fuck even with active DR up. Past a certain point, it is no longer so much a fun challenge as it is a luck of the draw as to if your healers + dps are strong enough to keep you up and make sure they interrupt/dps it fast enough
I got all portals last season (DF s4) and was 1 minute short of timing a 12. I have given up on M+ this season and expect to cap out at ilvl 619 unless i get accepted into mythic raid (i did pug raid a bit last season too) which is unlikely if you are more than 5-10 under gear cap.
Just wanna confirm if this is true on EU... When searching for M+ Filtering by Has Tank never shows any results for M+ groups for any dungeon with no rating requirement, but tonnes pf groups when filtering for only groups where theres only a healer, is this right?
I have been seeing posts like, "This voidbound shield mob affix has ruined the game, I am done". So I expected a ridiculous, whiny video. On the contrary, you nailed it! Very educated, thoughtful, and insightful look at M+ and how to improve it.
The death penalty affix is atrocious but let’s be honest, there are a lot of very bad, inexperienced players in decent ilvl this season thanks to Delves. It doesn’t help that M0’s were a failure in teaching mechanics as we outgeared then day one.
@@WoWatNight Delve gear isn’t the best but you can fully gear up to a ilvl that’ll get you into mid keys. Someone who has done only the raid + delves and gotten around 610 ilvl without touching dungeons is definitely concerning when they expect to skip 0-4s and go straight into 6s and 7s completely blind. This is the same problem we had back in Legion with World Quests. You could essentially skip the majority of lower content by doing daily quests and go into harder keys with no experience at all.
@@MikeyJ232 tbh I really don't feel bad if I come across as mildly toxic to people that can't be bothered to properly manage wipe mechanics. Dawnbreaker orb mechanic comes to mind. It's insanely disrespectful to the rest of the group if you're queuing into my key but don't understand the mechanic, and end up bricking it. Idc if people don't want to beta test, go on ptr, watch video guides, but at the very least READ THE DUNGEON JOURNAL BEFORE DOING M+.
If there wipe on a key it's 75sec lost, the run back and the time wasted on that encounter. So it's about at least 2-3 min lost. If you wipe on a boss on like 20 or 30% you looking at 4-5min lost. So how is this making good push week on any week
+8s should be mythic crests and mythic track in the vault new affixes are literally offering nothing, we kept getting the emissary at the end of every pull the whole dungeon. Their buff duration is 0. dungeon tuning and bugs are still a mess and also the old ones that got chosen are not even fun dungeons, more like annoying. class balance is nowhere to be found when every group is just Prot warrior, Resto shaman, frost DK, Mage, Aug/ 2nd shaman. The community is so driven from youtube videos and livestreams that they are not inviting anything other than these 5 specs and nothing below 2.5k score. it's at the peak of toxicity with people cursing everyone after 1 death and then leaving the group.
Pretty much agree with everything you said here! One thing I'd add is having to do 10's currently for the max vault reward is daunting and I'm really not looking forward to running 8 10s every week on my main to just have a chance of those bis trinkets.
I also want M to drop more pieces. It's so stupid getting to only play a few dungeons a night and having absolutely nothing to show for it. Meanwhile, every single bountiful delve guarantees an item, upgrade or not I get SOMETHING.
Trying to play an assa rogue in keys atm. My main problem right now as someone who pugs mainly is: 1: the amount of “do this or die mechanics” and 2) the 15 seconds upon death is horrid.
I was doing +25-28s keys and now +10s are feel inaccessible for some reason. Lower keys are infested with bad players, higher ones you can´t really get into for some reason :D
Iv'e been playing windwalker this season and currently have close to 2500 io, yet it is hard to get into anything above and 8. I pull high numbers on bosses and every pack even without cd's yet it seems people much prefers meta classes over those with the score and DPS. on average it take 1 hour to get accepted into a group and 30 minutes to complete the key, so after one key I'm pretty much done for the day. It's really frustrating that people recognizes the class and not the player.
I don't necessarily mind the gearing pacing. I feel like its still pretty fast and you can honestly still do 9/10s around 610-615ilvl which is pretty easy to get to. The main issue I think is that the key squish and difficulty ramping has made everything feel less rewarding. If you feel under geared or need to make just a little progress on your rating, you feel like you're stuck because the jump from a 6 to 7 is pretty large, the jump from an 8 to 9 is large, then the jump to 10-11s to a 12 is enormous. Whereas before if I was stuck on a 17-18 range of keys, there was more options available to me to work little by little on my score because of the wider range of difficulty scaling. The current affixes are honestly fine. This week's is actually a little hated on for silly reasons: it spawns in execution range, which makes it an easy nuke, plus for Disc Priests it actually makes it a great healing recovery target because they can back to back Touch of Death and it tops everyone off. Just wish they would make the scaling of the dungeons better so that players can either do the minimum and get KSM on all their alts and still feel challenged, while also offering plenty of a ladder for the hardcore io pushers to climb and feel rewarded as they continue to progress.
I’ll be honest with you, I just don’t want to do it anymore. I beat ?? once, did all delves. Literally could not be bothered to do it for another season. M+, I’d rather grade my nuts on a cheese grader than deal with another season of inflated egos, leavers, and toxic attitudes. Raiding, take M+ and add 15 other people I’d rather not get to know or play with. Most of these guys I wouldn’t even nod at at the grocery store let alone want to associate with them in a game. Ive come to realize that this game isn’t for me and The War Within isn’t a story about a struggle with a void tainted baddy but rather my own war within with this video game and me not liking it anymore.
I want to add my 2 cents here and say that as someone who pugged my way to 20-22 last season comfortably, even if i did so slowly, this season is so much worse. The amount of responsibility placed on DPS players is just too much. I can no longer carry keys like i did on my VDH and ProtPala. Every single time on last boss of Ara-Kara for exampled, someone gets killed in the first cosmic, just as an exampled. The timers are awful in some dungeons. I like to feel out pug healers at the start of a key and then increase pull size if the healer seems up to it and/or dps are doing a good job interrupting and if it feels too risky i'd simply slow down on pull size and do slow and safe. In many dungeons at 10 that will make you deplete timer even without wipes. Healers have it even worse. The sheer amount of mechanics in most pulls and the amount of individual responsibility makes me feel like i have no control over the success of the key anymore. And the toxicity is incredible. I have an absolute no tolerance policy for abuse and will leave if someone starts that. Last boss of CoT i miscounted the tankbuster and ran back after 2 orbs instead of 3 and killed someone, on a key that was already depleted because DPS kept standing in stupid things and got blamed immediately for everything going wrong in the key (i made this 1 mistake)..... Things aren't good atm
Since i dont do „rewarding keys“ for gear farming and started Doing 10s and 11s sometimes 9s, there Are much better Players in this dungeonpool and pugging feels good imo
the 7 affix 15s penalty per death is so dumb when you stay there and wee how someone grieves the group and i dont blame the players. this is so toxic affix they introduced and otherwise its way overtuned for non curs dispell healer
If they revert just this one change, things will be much better. We get bosses or trash mobs getting buffed in the form of weekly rotations. And both forms had separate scores and will be combined to contribute to one's mythic+ score. But they changed this in a way where only your highest clear score in a dungeon would be summed up. Bring back the old, two separate clear score combination system!
Hey, thanks for talking about the toxicity in pugs that is nurtured by this season's dungeon tuning and changes. Too often this is overlooked by content creators because they have their buddies to play with and the pug-life is looked down and we're even called "lazy." In my opinion, there's nothing more in line with an MMO than logging on and being ready to do difficult content with total strangers.
That was fun (to me anyway) because of the randomness of Titanforged items having a chance to drop as well as a legendary. Doing repeat runs had chances at awesome upgrades and I actually quite enjoy that ARPG loot style of gameplay in MMOs. WQs were also more fun and varied in Legion as well and had chances at insane gear. I actually love that sort of random gear drop chance in MMOs. Blizzard cleaned the game up too much due to people crying too much about it. That's what drove me away in BFA and SLs. Delves gave that gameplay style back to me for now and I wish WQs were fully unlocked and more fun again too.
I generally dont mind the difficulty level, although the increase from 9 onwars is slightly stupid. What I do mind is both the dungeons as well as the teammates. The timer are tuned quite tightly and most of the dungeons have parts that will wipe people who dont pay enough attention. Combined with the 15 sec penalty and the effects that delve have, thats a pretty cool way of making life hell for pug groups. From my point of view, a lot of the problems come from delves giving free loot thats way too good for the amount of time and effort you have to put in to get it. Pretty much everyone has 605-610 Ilvl without even having seen an m+ or raid, which IS an issue. Those people, who never raided or did m+, now have to go nhc/hc raid or m+ > 6 so get gear that is an upgrade and a lot of them try to do it. Additionally, there are a lot of people who want(ed) to try m+ this season, simply because its the first time they have gear to do so, but skip the lower level, so they never have a learning part before running keys that are quite punishing. Considering that most WoW player these days have a huge ego regardless of skill, thats a pretty good way to ruin a lot of runs. Oh, and due to the free gear through delves, there is simply no need for a lot of people to run m+ keys. So a lot likely gave it a try, saw how annoying the dungeons are and went back to delving.
SL season 4, DF season 2&3 were peak M+ for me. As much as I like TWW as an expansion, S1 feels bad. I like the voice lines, I wonder how much more it would have actually cost to get 5 variations. Bosses need this too.
Key depletion needs to go, in fact I even think this season wouldn't feel so bad IF they got rid of it. Think about it why does this season suck? You're depleting more as one mistake from some random (or yourself) and you can take anywhere from 15- 1m 15 sec penalty. And then someone leaves and you have to carry the burden of getting another group and going through a whole dungeon a level lower to get back to where you started (if you're lucky and time it with worse players because oh boy is it noticable going down the key levels this expansion). Whereas if you messed up and were missing the timer because of 1 person you simply just remove that person and find 1 person and try again. Then the only person punished is the guy making the mistake not the person who put their key up.
Is anyone else experiencing bugs during boss mechanics? On the last boss of dawnbreaker +6, the extra action button didn't prompt for me, and the key holder when you pick up the bomb.. we would've timed the damn key.
I think the affix only having one voice line is intentional, especially since it seems to be louder than everything else in the game. It's to help people recognise the affix is actually happening
They said they dont want to make each dungeon to be big pull after big pull, yet now we barelly have a spot where tank could display mastery of forming big pull, cause its full on artificial blockades for big pulls, also so many casts with new changes to cc in general makes pugging stuff terrible, i main healers and always keep my tank up when squad is not online to pug with it, yet i just dont find this enjoyable, in SLs3 i had 5 tanks for that purpose
I main tank in m+ since BFA S1, this season has been maybe the hardest season to play tank and also pug keys since ... well i'd say SL S1, i feel like they don't know how to tune the game, to please sweaty tryhards or casuals ? Also while i'm playing with good players, 12 keys are a BRUTAL wall that need to be prog like a mythic raid and i'm fine with that BUT ! Keys needs to stop being depleted, it's very toxic for people that don't inject 15 hrs a day as a team to push key and practice, to deplete their key and waste time fishing to 12 again to hope time it...
Well said, and I agree! Fix the reward structure and the other problems go away. People play Mythic plus for gear, not because they want to do Mythic plus.
They also threw in 10 items in a dungeons loot table making it extremely hard to get say the trinket from grimbatol or ara kara, the grind is insane, I got tired after grinding so many +9s and almost 20% of those runs grp fails and everyone leaves before finishing
I don't get how they don't take raiding as an example. The current raid tier is a lot of fun and generally with raiding with each difficulty jump there are mechanics added in a similar more natural way. Just get rid of affixes entirely. For example: Speaker Shadowcrown gets an added beam at +9 or in city of threads the last boss has another orb added that players need to dodge. Stuff like that. U know like actually make it more mythic.
I dno, i celebrate M+ finally being hard. I have all but abandoned Mythic raiding. There has been absolutely no incentive for me to commit hours upon hours each week progressing a boss, if i can simply turn my brain off and zug zug through a +8 with the same or better gear rewards. Also to your point "Gearing too quick? Its like having too much icecream" while having just said you would simply clear whatever m+ rewarded the highest gear and quit is interesting, but i think most people agree. But you'd have to concede by saying that, that people would have no reason to return once they got all the gear, thus killing the season before it started.
I feel the same way (never going back to heroic/mythic raiding after 12 years of it) but now I prefer Delves as my play style of choice as I've mostly been a solo MMO player since 1999. I have no time for further social constraints in a videogame anymore but still enjoy hard content and I hope they add further rewarding tiers in Delves in the future. The fighting game scene going back to legendary levels of online play not seen since 2004/2005 is pretty good too. (random comment I know, but its something that ate into my early MMO game time 20 years ago and will be doing so again here soon when I get a proper set up next year for arcade sticks/tables/connections/etc.
Yeah gear progression sucks. You can say its non existing. Most players are going to have reached the point where they have full hero track gear and are not getting the gilded crests to upgrade it. Stuck at a item level where they cant progress in M+ because it's too hard at 615 or so. The game is asking them to do +9s for a few crests at 615, brutal. They should just let people fully upgrade hero track gear with runed crests. and maybe have content drop double the current amount of runed crests.
9s and even 10s are easy at 615 ilvl. If you can't get gilded crests by now, why do you need them? You clearly aren't doing high keys or mythic raiding
Most people never do mythic raiding. Mythic raiding and myth gear is in a different universe from hero gear. Blizzard should at least make it possible to upgrade hero gear fully with runed crests. Most people cant do 9s and 10s with 615. Mythic key pushers have a distorted view on this. The question becomes. Does Blizzard want to retain more players on retail beyond a month after a season start or are they simply going to let them leave because of a lack of gearing options. its not about letting people get easy myth gear. But give them something to work towards. And maybe eventually (if they can keep upgrading their hero gear) they can do a 10 for a greater vault myth piece. i think this is reasonable.
@@schmidthGear progression in itself is what keeps people playing. What you think people will do when reaching their realistic gear cap 4 weeks into a 6 months season? Look back at SL season 1 and tell me that was healthy for the game.
The rough part for me as a tank is going from a 9 Tyr to a 10 with Fort and Tyr. From a 9 Fort to a 10 Fort + Tyr isn't bad since you're already dealing with the harder tank affix but man adding Fort on a 10 is rough. Really looking forward to 10s being homework keys so we don't dip under 10s again. I'd rather have it harder but constant.
They should drop tye whole other affixes and only have xalatath guile. Instead of thinking about a completely boring affix you can just play the dungeon normally but with Harder hitting spells and more health on mobs
I dont even mind the combination of tyrannical + fortified as non fortified mobs feel awful to put cooldowns into but also still do insane damage so your tank cant double pull. My main gripe is the non stop casting from mobs and the changes to stops no longer counting as interrupts. If your group spams stops, the mobs will eventually all line up their casts and if one person happens to get targeted by multiple mobs you'll just get globaled. Also, challengers peril is an awful addition to the game. This needs to either get nerfed or removed. You should be allowed to have a few deaths in a +10 and still time it.
i always have a main "alt" that is build for meta tank and play it as serious as my main. learning about the tank changes in DF, playing abit and then decide to just stick to being a DPS until next season. This is the only xpac that made me do this.
I agree with almost everything. I thought you were going to also mention necrotic, grim batol and Stone vault requiring nearly every mob in the dungeon leading to no route choices. Necrotic was so much better before, was changed to make it less fun.
My tin foil theory for a long time now is that blizzard just hates M+ They are nostalgic for the good old days of wow and really just wish people would raid a lot more. Like the reward structure of M+ in TWW is 100% due to the raids. M+ is always suffering because it has to take the raid into consideration. Even delve gearing got preferential gearing compared to M+, they made all keys 7 keys. While at the same time making >7 keys the most difficult m+ content ever for pugs, further amplifying the toxicity. I'd really like to see an expansion where they put m+ first as the big content they want people to interact with, not always picking raiding just because they think It's what wow is all about. I really think the key squish was a big mistake, m+ should have a more gradual difficulty curve with gradual gear rewards. And I don't really understand why they even did it, if you ran +18 keys previously It's not like you had to do +2 all the way up to 18 each week. We got new keys in the vault after the first week so never had to redo lesser content. But for people progressing it was a really good way of learning the game until you could reach those higher tiers and greater rewards.
@@WoWatNight I agree, but if we suppose that players, maybe a lot of players, stay subscribed because they enjoy having that ilvl climb over a season. By making this season so hard, especially by requiring 10+ to get myth track, once players upgrade their hero track what is there to do? There are 15-16(depending on 2h or dw) slots to fill with myth track, you get 1 per week from the vault. Most will craft 2 pieces so that's 13-14 slots to fill with vault. With perfect vault luck that still 3.25-3.5 months of playtime to do that (and you wont have perfect vault luck, some weeks you won't upgrade at all so make that even longer). If you make myth track out of reach for a lot of players, upgrading all your hero gear to max + 2 crafted pieces will only take 1.5 months of playtime. They should want players to have access to myth track from vault so they stay engaged longer and have more to work towards. One might say that as you upgrade your hero gear +10 will be more achievable and you can start doing that, but the community this time around seems very hesitant against picking players who are behind on score and ilvl. Once you have upgraded your hero track, there will be myth track players who have both score and ilvl much higher than you, so the chance you get invited won't really increase since that chance is based on the relative progression against other players and you are way behind. This wouldn't be such a problem if the dungeons weren't so difficult. You can already see it, dps have a really hard time even getting invited to +8 for crests since they might not have been able to get gilded in the weeks previous, so they are way behind on both score and ilvl. Why would you as keyholder pick a 610 player with 2k score when you could pick a 620 with more? This only became the case when they added crests to 8, those were "easy" to get invited to when no higher lvl player wanted to do them. But if you just want to cap your crests as a +10 players why not run +8 since is easier and faster and reward the same amount.
My only two complaints around M+ this season is how unforgiving any error is, and the gates for gear rewards in the vault. Having to do a +10 for a hope of a myth track piece is beyond what most “serious casuals” are able to do. I only play the game for M+ and some HC raids. I have limited time, but take m+ seriously. In previous seasons i was able to get to 2.8 to 3k RIO reliably. This season I doubt I will break 2k. I want a challenge, but I don’t want to be beaten into the ground day in and day out.
For me, the problem is that the tuning is extremely bad. I've come off a very long retail break (I last played retail in Legion) having played classic in the meantime, but even when M+ was new in Legion, i never remembered it being so difficult. The amount of one-shot mechanics even on lower key (hell, even M0 if you're a fresh 80 in Adventurer gear) is insane. It doesn't help that four of the dungeons on offer are just objectively bad (Mists comes down how well your group can handle the second boss, Ara-Kara has two bosses with mechanics that make or break a run if you just miss them once, Dawnbringer is so buggy that i'm honestly bewildered Blizzard decided to release it in this state and the less said about Boralus the better) and several others having massive Tuning problems doesn't help things either (Necro was legit unbeatable without pro groups because of the stacking debuff on the Surgeon, Grim Batol was legit unbeatable on higher keys because of the last boss). Then there are numerous problems with class balance that need urgent attention; Pala tanks are essentially worthless, Druid healers are non-viable on higher keys due to the way Resto simply functions. Blizzard wanted to never go back to the dark days of TBC where entire classes were sidelined because they offered a subpar toolkit, but as it stands right now, TWW is sidelining classes even harder - just try to find groups as a Shadow Priest or a MM Hunter. The new affixes on the other hand are actually really good, i like it that it introduces a mechanic that actually rewards you with something that isn't just survival if you pull it off correctly.
![TWW Season 1 Recap [Patch 11.0.5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zGNvvxGSTQw/mqdefault.jpg)
![TWW Season 1 Recap [Patch 11.0.5]](/img/tr.png)
You could also add that finding a tank or healer is exceptionally harder since people arent having as much fun doing either
Very true. We're lucky we have each other.
2550 resto sham here and uhhhh its not fun in random groups but with my friends its great
Im disc priest 2165 rio only played with pugs. Im enjoying healing this expac. Currently gearing a pres evoker alt
i have fun tanking, what you talking about lol. we just dont pug, pugs are the cancer of the game these days. we have a guild and a group of RL friends to play with. if we dont have people on. we dont play simple. i rather let my friends trash talk to me then some random wannabe idiot on the internet.. because i can slap my friends
I play DH tank, it's very fun gameplay BUUUUT, you got flame each time you doing a mecha wrong or you taking the wrong routes or whatever. I'm just gonna stop tww and go back to wow classic hardcore, wich is funnier overall.
For me the worst part is M+ is too overhelming and hard, and you have only a little chance to get a BIS item. M+ are not so rewarding overall => don't worst the cost, at least, for a tanks or healers.
I love trying to get into a +7-8 for an hour just for the group to disband 15mins in.
True!
This is why I do my own key, or guildie's
Yeah? Pugs. What do you expect? Last xpac you can faceroll an m20. Stand in shit. Not know mechanics. Now, it's expected for you to actually know the routes and how to play.
and you don't do your own key because?
@@konekopon2865 some people might want to run a specific dungeon, maybe their key is a 2 and they don't want to up it all the way up, some people are nervous about deciding the group composition and will feel bad if the group wipes and they picked everyone, sometimes you just don't want the responsibility of picking the team, some people are just followers. there's numerous reasons one might not want to run their own key.
and you ask your questions in a condescending way because?
Imagine doing a 8 or 9 Ara Kara. You have 2 melee dps and do enough total damage to clear it in time, but not much more. On the first boss, half way through when webs are everywhere, all three dps make their way to kill the hatching spiders. Before you can really damage them the affix add spawns and shields them. Key dead.
Bring a monk. Problem solved 😂
Yep, perfect example of things not working well together
@@jackbagdadi6117 a monk for what?
The first boss is the most insane for shadow priests. I feel like I could solo the adds while blasting the boss up to decently high levels. I could see it being a nightmare for melee though.
Or... you could CC/slow/knock the ads and send 1 dps to burst the affix w the tank while the other 2 work on the ads. Far from a brick (I've done several 9 AK runs this week and the worst run I had on that boss was somebody butt pulling some bats)
To be clear I'm not saying the affix is good or doesn't need tuning - but still... no need for overreaction either
Whomever is making the final decisions on m+ needs to move positions
Yeah, if they are even at Blizz anymore.
M+ is what made me really love playing the game in the last two seasons. I wasn't really a big fan of season 1 or season 2, but I absolutely had a blast in Seasons 3 and 4. Even though I've been a wow player on and off for over 15 years now, I've never actually played the game more than during this last year. That is, until Season 1 of TWW.
Mythic+ is just not rewarding. Mythic track gear has been locked behind a much higher difficulty than it was previously, and the death affix makes pushing keys a pain. Tanking is also pretty wild, coming from DF where tanks were immortal CC machines, to now where we need full defensives entering into most trash pulls, particularly if not playing a Warrior or Druid. I don't mind too much, but it is a point of friction added to the already severe difficulty hike. Then for me, the problem compounds since I refuse to pug, and only play with friends and guildies. Previously I never went wanting for players ready to push keys and fill vaults, but now half of my contacts just aren't good enough to even get +10s let alone finish them, and the other half have either gone full pug, or have given up like me due to the friction making the game unfun.
I've see the usual comments, saying players like me just want free loot. These people forget that I don't just turn up and buy the gear, I have to actually put the work into finishing all those keys, and by doing so I am also creating fun and a rewarding experience for all the people I play with. The fact that we get mythic gear drip fed every week thanks to this system should be of no concern to anyone interested in the health of the game, since when this system is broken, as it is today, people like me just stop playing, and I don't see how fewer players can be a good thing in an mmo. It's not like I'm using an inflated ilvl to get into ridiculously high keys and making them fail, I don't even do pugs, and I wouldn't be able to get into a 3.5k rating group anyway, even with my usual seasonal 3k.
I just want to be a casual heroic raider, getting all my loot and feeling that every week I can look forward to play the mythic item lottery and potentially get a big upgrade. But now this has been placed out of reach, for many reasons I have explained, and now I only raid log, which will only hold my attention for so long. It used to be I would play 4 months of every season, on 4 or 5 characters, entertaining myself by filling different roles and experiencing different classes and specs, but now I might not make it 3 weeks. I feel like that's a problem with the game.
Exactly
Amen. I haven’t even had enough time to really get into playing my alts yet because I’ve been focusing on getting dedicated people to run M+ and just haven’t been having nearly as much fun as DF season 3 & 4
Your reply resonates with us. They have taken the game in a much more difficult direction for sure.
@@WoWatNight I'm not someone who keeps stats or anything, but I do have a bunch of discords of guilds and friends groups I have played with in the past. Back is Season 3, I could log on at pretty much any time and find at least one group of people running weekly keys. During week ends most of those channels would be full of people, and I would be hopping from one to the other as players rotated to fill roles. Now there are only 2 of those discords still active, and the only time they see activity is during raid nights. I hardly see anyone grouping up for M+, and it's just a sad vindication of my own feelings on the season.
Casual heroic raiders don't need Myth track gear for anything...other than pushing very high keys. If you're pushing very high keys you'll get Myth track gear which will let you push higher.
I think the worst aspect of this season is they completely failed on all the goals they outlined when they nerfed tanks in the last few weeks of the beta. They said they wanted to reduce spiky dmg but this is probably atleast tied with some of the worst spiky dmg we've ever had in M+.
I've been healing a lot this season and basically with a single mistake somebody is dead in some situations and its just awful. Healing has become stressful and I feel like I have zero agency. I didn't heal in Dragonflight much but heard it was pretty bad too, but atleast tanks could be self sufficient and it would allow me to focus on healing the DPS who might take 90% of their life in a single hit if they mess up.
I have no doubt that organized groups are mostly chilling this season, but its an absolute trainwreck if you do any sort of pugging. Dungeons are so overloaded with mechanics that I mean I don't expect someone who only has a few hours a week to play to memorize all 8 dungeons down to their individual trash packs, but missing a kick can be SO brutal this season with the spikes of dmg.
@@FunkyToe369 completely agree.
Yup, exactly.
The tank nerfs (in combination with the attempt to flatten damage spikes which literally did the exact opposite) caused 75% of the problems this season. Id say another 10% is the dungeons just being overtuned with stupid amounts of mechanics and multiple dangerous casters in each mob pack. 10% being stuns only temporarily stopping casts (this shit is retarded and seriously pisses me off), and the rest are players joining keys that they shouldn’t be in. Not knowing mechanics, and not realizing a 5 is now a 15.
And exactly what was said at the time too - To say folk were dubious on that promise is a /slight/ understatement; It was fed back in every way as a bad move, and on they went anyway. And Lo and Behold would you believe it? They've failed to deliver.
And then Out of hell there comes the Blizzard Goofy that thinks further nerfing healers is good Idea. 🎉
The problem is M+ is basically failing on all levels of its content. There is virtually no reason to run low keys as delve rewards are vastly superior and 8 delves can optimized to be done in like an hour or so, entering the season almost every character had already outgeared keys up till say 6 or so. For mid keys, where the majority of the playerbase would be playing at, the reward structure/overall tuning is too difficult, creating a wall where players don't access to gilded crests to progress further and turning the majority of people away from m+ (This is by far the biggest failure). At high keys (10-11s) 15s death penalty and Tyrannical + Fort effectively makes it so that more than few deaths in a run bricks the key resulting in most of these being left as soon as a mistake happens instead of having enough counterplay to make more aggressive pulls to still complete the dungeon in time. At the title pusher level, there is such a significant wall at 12, combined with 15s deaths that once you've filled with all 11s and maybe a 12 or two of the easier dungeons, you're effectively walled out of progression from a numbers perspective since the squish has effectively made jumping from 11 to 12 like jumping 3-4 key levels in the past system.
This. M+ is such garbage, and it leaves me wondering why the hell anyone plays Retail anymore.
u can literally do 8x zekvir now to get same vault as x8 delves. and 8x zekvir takes 30m.
An hour? Even as a lacklustre Shadow Priest, i can do a Tier 8 Delve in like, 30 minutes.
The sad part is, if you can’t do 9s reliably and don’t get myth crests, there’s little reason to go past 4s. Maxed out gear from 4s = heroic track gear from 7+ without myth crests.
@@RatatoeskrrrIt honestly doesn’t matter if you or I believe people should have access to certain gear. Between delves and vault people get hero track gear extremely fast. If you don’t give them a reasonable pathway beyond that and they effectively reach their gear soft cap 4 weeks into the season, they will stop playing. We don’t have to speculate about it, we know from looking back at SL season 1.
The level 7 affix encourages disbands. Everyone complained about the old affixes and they replaced them with worse ones.
It seems if you weren’t doing 10s week one, you’re screwed. Because pugs in low keys can’t do mechs and failure is too punishing.
They also nerfed tanks so bear or warrior are the only tanks which give you an easier time in pugs.
It’s also exposing bad healers and now they have to keep an eye on tanks and healing big amounts of burst damage to the group and healing just isn’t fun.
It’s not fun at all. It’s like they just designed this season to waste our time, because the odds in timing or even completing a key is pretty low in pugs right now. Plus you can get far into a key just for it to disband because either the death penalty or a boss takes too long to kill. It also seems 2 wipes on a boss and the key is done.
Just do lower keys then. Higher diff is for better players no ?
@@Aegea291 now imagine how it feels to heal a solo shuffle at capped mmr
I wasn’t doing 10s week one, I play a blood DK as well. On a +9 I still time keys with a full group wipe, sometimes with 10 deaths. I also pug groups. I’ve timed over 80-100 keys in the last 3 weeks and now have an IO of 2400 now. The biggest problem right now is people just don’t do mechanics, which are quite abundant in all content and that’s really it in my opinion.
@@Gyllrexxar Hard to do if your guild expects you to tun Keys upwards of 7 to remain part of the Raid comp.
I think the other problem with healing right now is that three specs are just being sidelined entirely. Disco is a mess and Mistweaver and Resto Druids simply cannot compete because their numbers are too low. Worse still, Restos need a fundamental rework to make them work in this state. It's all Shamans, Holies and Pallys right now, with the occasional Evoker thrown in there.
Problem is, devs don't play their own game.
1. Get rid of the death affix. Give all dungeons +10% extra time as baseline when you reach +7 take that 10% away as part of the challenge.
2. Tyrannical should not give extra health to bosses, this has always been the main issue. Give bosses a soak or an extra ability that only deals dmg if you ignore it.
3. More different crests like in season 3 DF or increase weekly cap to 120 instead of 90.
4. Crafting costs down from 45->30 and 90->60 crests.
5. Bad luck protection currency on +10 keys (need to finish 15 +10 to purchase a hero track item from vendor)
6. Crests reward should go from 0-3 / 4-7 / 7-10 / 10 the bad luck protection item in additon.
This game was meant to shift into alt friendliness, however upgrading your alts gear has never been more grindy and difficult. Players will hit their wall in M+ faster this way, but they won't burn out but rather try a new class. I wanna feel as if I was playing a game, not working.
Taking conclusion about people you don't know is not the brightest move to prove a point.
My next post would have been about how great it feels to be able to play the game with more classes and specs without grinding months :) what drew me to WoW in the first place was the fun gameplay and class diversity
@@Ratatoeskrrrthat’s really blizzard’s fault if that happens. It means their content isn’t engaging enough to last more than 3 months. Timegating takes the pressure off them. As paying customers we absolutely NEED to keep that pressure on them. Plus with reference to what the other guy was saying with regards to crests and alt friendliness..remember what they said at the war within announcement : respect players’ time. Having to run 40 dungeons (or whatever that number is, someone did the calculation ) to upgrade one toon doesn’t sound particularly respectful of our time
@@Ratatoeskrrr its infinite scaling though, there’s always a point where it gets difficult no matter how good or max geared. With DF s3 & 4 at least, I would chase the somewhat harder keys for my skill level when aiming for my 3.3k tank IO. But for GV slots and farming specific items for specific slots i could just faceroll 8s. My point being - if you found the old philosophy ‘boring’ as a tank and wanted some adrenaline, there was always a key level that could challenge you. If you didn’t like DPSing as a healer, you could do 0 dps and the key timer would likely still be fine (problem for healing wasn’t tanks, it’s DPS defensives vs one shots - again, onus is on Blizzard for making healing completely miserable in the opposite direction now). So in the DF scenario - tanks and healers would likely continue playing tanks and healers. In the war within scenario, u now have some of us (myself included) who have retired our healers and tank here and there just for variety. Ie smaller tank and healer pool for queues, good job Blizzard. I dont have the stat to back this up, keeping in mind being a new expac there’s likely a bigger playerbase than s3 s4 DF, but i do expect that this will bear out in due time if they dont change things back.
In the midst of all this tuning philosophy too, is basically the argument of what level of challenge makes one ‘worthy’ of the categories of rewards, ie, the mindset that - if you aren’t good enough to do a 10 you dont ‘deserve’ to get myth track. I think that this is needlessly elitist - people who are more skilled and seek the grind and the challenge will always get their gear faster anyways as they have mythic raid access, the rest will get it once a week thru GV. That balance seemed ‘more’ fine in DF, vs now where it’s seemingly a lot harder for pure PUG groups. My RL friend group that plays m+ together looks at it this way and im sure we’re not alone - get gear to play the game, not play the game to get gear..it’s not 2004 anymore. Give us our myth track and get out of the way, let us see where’s our own limit IO wise.
As to the dg count, i looked it back up - nerftankTV’s tweet on 1st Oct : ‘gilded and ruined crest cap are both increasing to 360 this reset. It would take a new character 60 dungeons to cap both’ - and that’s assuming no depletes. In the context of alt gearing once the main is done, it does seem disrespectful of our time 🤷♂️
Of course, i don’t have the answer as to what the balance should be, nor am i saying we should be able to faceroll 10s in week 1 or 2. There’s a reasonable balance somewhere, and currently a lot of us dont feel that we are at that point, nor are we particularly enjoying the process
@@Ratatoeskrrr thank you, I appreciate your civility too.
with regards to avg player skill level, i mean sure, once ilvls stabilized i saw weeks back in DF where ppl doing 8s were so bad my 10-14s felt easier. But then i also did have the experience that ppl at 15-16s were again so much better that it felt easier than my 10-14s. so i guess its all relative and a baseline of who's worthy for endgame gear can be kind of hard to pin down. So in that context id rather err to the side of give everyone gear, let IO score sort us out, and ill accept the risk of a shitty 8 every now and then...now its a 10, a number's just a number but i think the difficulty scaling felt better in DF for sure. Prob the death timer affix is too punishing maybe.
As to healing, i just see Blizz's solution to the healing problem as superbad and ass backwards - people complained about oneshots, they turned every fight and challenge into halls of infusion mage boss - everything's literally 5-man rot damage now. Reeks of laziness - i guess with Microsoft's layoffs they dont have enuff people to look at pruning defensives and reducing the # or makeup of caster packs in dungeons. But hey ive been giving them a $15 sub for almost 20 years and probably thousands of dollars in overwatch and diablo lootboxes and WoW shop mogs and mounts, so im allowed to not care.
And the tuning is so wild - 50% and 100% swings of the bat back and forth on various classes and specs, i can understand that resto druid will be weaker at expac start when haste and versa levels are lower..but what are they even doing lmao
this is so stupid. i can't believe someone said what you just said. bad luck protection? WTF. you want more time, more crests, lower the price of crests and easier affixes? wtf did i just read
The squish + gearing track has basically dragged a huge number of players who used to play at around +10 (pre-squish) now be functionally forced to play +20s; where they simply don't have the skill to compete.
This enrages the players that belong, demoralize the players that don't and spiral into a toxicity loop so deep it would be impossible to drag the community out of it without massive changes.
Mythic Track alone isn't the issue, but gilded being required for heroic track is. If you are a heroic progression tier player (the overwhelming majority), it is entirely likely you have capped all your gear at 619.
You can't consistently clear the last two bosses on heroic for the gilded crests, you can't do +10s to get the crests, and thus you quite literally are simply gear capped. No one accepts this, all players seek to upgrade their gear, especially after only three weeks of the expansion. So they MUST step into +10s, their guild is still trying to clear Queen, they NEED the crests for upgrades. So they brick keys over, and over, and over, and over and enrage both themselves and the hardcore players become further elitist to wall themselves from this unqualified player base, further polarizing the community into a toxic spiral.
If things aren't adjusted and honestly quite soon, this will blow up in Blizzards face.
@@HeinousinAppearance Honestly the whole gear rank system is BS anyway. I have had this idea since when they first introduced crests, Why does gear have a rank system since we have crests now? Why? Why Blizz why? Gear would be so much better if I could get the Ara Kara trink from a 5 and be able to upgrade it all the way to 636. Some will say but then you won't do that dungeon anymore or you will be geared and not wanna grind and quit till next season. To which I say "wtf do u mean u still have to grind the crests to upgrade that gear". All this change does is make gearing feel better, instead of hoping that ur BiS will drop again on a higher track u will already have it. U will still have to spend the same amount of time in M+ or raids to upgrade it. It would make gearing feel better and make less guild loot drama from raids.
+20s you say
i was running 9's on resto shaman and got burned out, imho this is probably the worst M+ season iv'e run so far, like i dont even wanna log in to fill out my vault i dont have the motivation
The problem is the damage is way, WAY too bursty for healers. One mistake from a DPS and someone is extremely likely to die. In previous seasons you constantly had something to do because damage was always coming in. Now you get a ton of downtime and then a gigantic amount of burst. Basically everyone's dying at once and you have to pop a bunch of stuff to keep up. The spikes are the problem and it's keeping healers stressed out never quite knowing when they're going to have to hit all their cooldowns and burst everyone back up. Plus bad tanks make this even worse when they don't know how to use all of their abilities. If you get a good tank it can seriously be a group changer for healers.
@@xvx4848 agreed, having to use a huge cd because a dps/tank didn’t use a defensive doesn’t feel good, walking into a boss fight with everything on cooldown knowing burst damage is incoming and not having anyway to respond to it just feels…….like shit??? The double cast/recast after interrupting mobs is problematic, the overlap in burst damage from mobs is ass, wasting interrupts, having no real way to significantly get the group to full health before more aoe damage comes out is garbage.
@@In_Dog_We_Trustdude the fact that it’s even possible for things like the Dawnbreaker 2nd boss main damage mechanics (orb explode plus normal aoe) to happen within 3 GCDs of one another is insane for healers 😂. Like even if you do the orb perfectly, there is literally no time to heal people before the tick one shots most of them on an 11, when they overlap like that.
...what? Burned out? It's not a mythic problem it's a you problem. Stop playing so much lol. I do 10s and I'm fine as resto, lol.
@@midnull6009 don’t play so much??? I already pulled my sub, I haven’t played in almost 2 weeks also how is this a “you” problem?? If this was only a “me”problem then bigger content creators that only do mythics like wouldn’t be posting about it, also this isn’t only them posting about it’s all over Reddit and in bnet forums…..try telling them it’s only a “them” problem and see how they respond, mythics is a snooze fest right now
Please please add myth track items into normal drop pool of m+, not just inside the vault for 1 rng item a week. I would be even fine, if they put it inside a +12, but atleast there is an option to get myth track items inside m+ other than vault. I would actually suggest to get a myth track items from dungeons from +10 onwards. Like why we have a champion gear dropped from +2 and +10 still just dropps hero track? Even though we get 3 types of crests on this scale.
Indeed
Lower keys should have longer timers ….. helps people gear and learn.
Key depletion should be remove for good.
How am i suppose to learn to heal X fight if you lower the difficulty instead of letting me practice that difficulty.
Sounds like a brain issue
@@roebie7621 look at this hero posting with a fake account. Such courage!
@@싸넬동지-7성담배 sounds like a brain issue..
@@chukky1124 such maturity, impressive
Wow shouldn’t be a full time job..
Shouldn't and isn't
@@chrisgraboski9133 well its not? Lol
@@lucasburghardt7955 Nope, it is. M+ is awful, people should get off Retail. It's so bad at this point.
@@chrisgraboski9133 Whats making you say that? If literally you're saying it takes 8hrs a day minimum
PVE is so I quit again f that after 15 years....f it!
I'm a main monk brewmaster and no one accepts me in M+ groups and if I create the group no one joins. Thank you blizzard for destroying my class and ruining my fun!
It's rough out there
@@JWFreeman i like brewmaster and i would join
They somehow managed to make tanking and m+ both unfun.
Actually I have been having fun tanking this season but healing is in the worst state I've seen in years. Damage is far too bursty rather than just constant like it was in previous seasons. Healers in previous seasons always had something to do but now they're just sitting around waiting for the next huge burst to come out and they have to pop everything.
100% disagree. They could make the jump from 9 to 10 and 11 to 12 smoother tho.
I've never found raid tanking fun only m+
M+ ruined tanking by making us reliant on healers for success.
@xvx4848 this is flat wrong, Shadowlands and DF every healer complained about spike damage, now it's all rot damage and it sucks, cause spike damage you could live with personals. Rot requires healers to do constant throughput and it's terrible.
Healers however literally complained this into existence.
You get either spike or rot, if you have neither you have no damage going out, so why have a healer?
No one ask for the tank nerf. No one was happy after the tank nerf. if anything the tank wanted was some buff cus vdh dominated every season in dragon flight and shadow land.
I just don't like most of the dungeons they chose. Like they went and polled me for my least favorite dungeons and put them as this seasons rotation
ditto
That is indeed my preference. That was the point of the comment
Ikr where's De other side and plague fall
Agreed. This crop of dungeons are just.. ass.
@@curcicreations Yeah I'm sure people love Grim Batol, City of Threads, Stonevault and Dawnbreaker.
And that's probably better than the TWW dungeons that didn't make season 1, minus, maybe, Rookery. Imagine dark cleft or the brewery.
Regular Mythic should be on Dungeon finder.
good idea
Regular mythic should be a prerequisite to doing m+. I am shocked how many people are jumping into +4 - +6 and dont know basic boss mechanics.
No. If ppl wanna do mythics it's up to them to look shit up. They already have follower dungeons....they should do those and take 5 mins to see a small difference between heroic vs mythic. It's usually just 1 thing.
Ppl who fail at mythics faceroll heroics and not learn anything....
Why. You babys cry its to hard. Heroic is what you find on dungeon finder.
M+ 9s being needed for Gilded Crests is the worst change they've made. Clearly some bean counter thought it would improve retention and was very wrong. Getting someone in leadership to admit a failure when promotions and annual reviews are performance based is very difficult.
Add myth track being 6 stages and the cost for myth upgrade for crafted gear going from 60 to 90 crests. Instead of extending how long they can people on the gear grind treadmill, this leads to a large number looking at the amount of runs required to cap stuff and conclude: “Nah, I’m fine.”
@@Sly_404 I'm going to be all 619 with a 636 shield by the time I get KSH. Doing all 10s/11 and still having un-upgraded gear because of the gilded crest drip feed is demotivating
@@devlin1991 how was that different with gilded at 7? Seems like the only difference is who is included
@@kel1770 check recent Blizz post. They finally admitted the screw up and changed gilded to 8s. Still needs to be lower but it's a start
@@devlin1991 i know they made that change. I dont know how that changes anything. Arent their still players gated out of 8s cuz they only have 7s timed and no myth gear? And if they made it 7 wouldnt the same thing be true for people stuck in 6s?
Im playing as DISC Priest and have some ideas, why PUG's is rought right now in M+:
1. To many changes for one season.
Tank survivability nerfs, progression system kinda bad (you cant get enough gear to even start farming +9 in PUGs), CC nerfs (which is a lot btw) and new affixes sometimes generate INSANE difficulty even on +7. For example - good luck killing second or third boss in NW with lady ghost affiix or soak balls in GB. Уou cant eve do anything about that.
2. Gold costs are HUGE.
Seriously, 15-20k for weapon chant? Rings are soo hard to chant - 6k for ring chant + 15k for sockets + ~8 for gems x2. ~100-120k for Omen Weapon + Wrist? Man, how can average player even farm that amount of gold at the start of the season? ->->-> BOOM, almost nobody doing that. Also, Flasks + Food + Oil = ~1k gold PER 1-2 dungeons. WTF!?
3. Not fair dungeon pool.
Dungeon pool is fun, dont get me wrong, i like all bosses and trash BUT many healers just dont have answers for some situations. To many Poison things, to many casters and so much room for average PUG player to make a mistake and not every healer have decent "oh shit button" to save the day.
4. Difficulty is much much higher, compared to DF S4.
This is a personal feeling, but i have hard time doing my +7 keys in PUGS because so many things can go wrong and so many times it does. And again, dont get me wrong, i like difficult things BUT not every PUG player like it too and this things start happening to early this season.
And just calculate how much power ppl lost in the dungeons this season: average ilvl is lower (progression nerf) + no item chants (gold cost) + no food and consumables (gold cost) + tanks are squisher (lower pulls).
Excellent points
@@WoWatNight thanks^^
agree
No, it's all a out ppl getting used to facerolling shit lol.
My friends usually play expansions for about 6 months after release and then get bored and go to other games, this expansion however most of them have quit already after just 6 WEEKS. The state of M+ is atrocious. Healers are stressed, tanks are stressed, gear progress is wonky and borderline non-existent. The best way to gear right now is to do tier 8 Delves for vault and then do +4 or above M+ for currency to upgrade gear. Last season I had Keystone Master and all my portals done within 2 months, this expansion I can't even think about doing a +10 and I'm 615 ilevel.
Keep in mind not even the best players in the entire WORLD have Keystone Master right now as most have barely reached +13 and +14. I feel like the dungeons need a flat blanket nerf of about 20% to put them in line with the difficulty of previous seasons, but I'm not entirely sure this would fix everything and they might have to go even further. I also feel like they need to add a few more tiers for Delves that can earn you Myth level gear in your vault. But Delves are a whole separate issue because they're quickly becoming Choreghast again.
That's pretty unfortunate, but yeah, it is a normal response to a game being massively overtuned. If you don't already have a major investment in WoW, why would you stick around and grind through the pain?
Man im so sick of delves already lol seriously tedious and they feel like such a waste of time. Yes you get high level gear but its random. I keep getting cloaks or pieces that are optimized completely wrong for my class/spec.
Well, KSM is just getting 2k rating this season I believe, but point taken.
I heal and i love it tbh. Healing is only stressful if the group cant put a simple stun rotation or interrupt. Its easy when everyone uses all their abilities/deff cds smart and i think it should be this way. Why care about the difficulty when there is always a key low enough for your skill ?
@@Gyllrexxar the issue is with pugs your going to get someone to make a mistake, the mistake is punished too hard. OK if your doing the highest of the high keys going for title but when 6 and 7 is bricking due to one person causing a wipe thats not a good feeling
Absolutely agree the reward structure is incredibly off and it's making the other issues more problematic I would say this is actually a pull the ripcord fix it now moment rather than a wait for 11.0.5. Do I think fort+tyran at a 10 is good design? not really but if it was only going to affect me for portal keys mid way through the season it might actually be ok but for many heroic raiders keys there is already 0 reward if you can't reliably do 9 or 10.
They definitely seem to be sticking with their design. We're right back to Shadowlands!
As a tank I’ve been having an absolute blast. I feel like I’m directly responsible for the level of fun our group has and that makes each dungeon so much more exciting.
The learning curve is high but it feels so rewarding to accomplish each higher key. And yes I’m pugging it up.
Same. As a healer too. These ppl who complain are used to facerolling and not knowing fights or mechanics. They should still to follower dungeons...cuz it's made for ppl just like them.
Dude, same here. This is the most fun i've had as tank since i started playing wow
^found the toxic people
Interesting, interesting.
Imagine being the person that comes up with Tyranical and Fortified when the health and damage of everything already goes up with key level. It's genius!
Imagine crying because you are not as good as you think you are
"but wait, there's more, look at my idea for +12 affix"
@@mckriel imagine defending lazy and bad game design
@@mckriel Lol he is right tho. Why are they even affixes anymore? They can just buff the adds and boss by the same amount as the affixes then remove them. Also those 2 affixes was originally there to make your in-game io go up. But know that both are active every week what's the point of them even being a affix?
I don't do Mythic raids at all as I don't care for raiding in general but I also don't have a weekly schedule that allows me to show up at the same time every single week. M+ is the content I enjoy but I'm a tank who timed a +9 in week 2 I can't find a group because of my item level is now far below what mythic raiders have. Without +9's I can't even cap my heroic gear let alone get to the point where I am relying on RNG to provide me a single mythic piece each week.
I usually love M+ but the inability to advance and falling farther and farther behind every week now despite pushing harder in weeks one and two than I have ever done has left me with no desire to even play the game as its what I'm here for. I'll stick around for the anniversary than I think I might take a break till it gets fixed. I have no idea what I'm going to fill my time with as this is the only game I play. I just know I'm not having fun here and I'm not going to pay to be frustrated. Which I guess is something else. I'm from the midwest and we tend to be midwest nice but even I've started to get snippy at people and have had to bite my tongue because of people making mistakes. In a normal season in a +21 or better someone making a mistake and killing the key isn't a big deal, everyone has homework keys you just go again. The problem now is everyones homework keys is seemingly in the +7 - +9 bracket and having to push a key back to a +9 again so you can get the rewards you need is frustrating beyond belief.
Anyway I think I'm about done with it all. Hope they fix it before they loose to many subs although I don't really know how many M+ players there really are.
anniversary and pvp and waiting is my plan too
i dont wanna be angry or sad about the incompetence of an 15 year old content that is really fucked up by ppl they build but dont use /played that product.
ok
M+ has the same problem its always had. The same quality of players can't play together. Neither the M+ score nor the ilvl accurately reflect the quality of the player. It needs to also capture deaths, interrupts, DPS, CD usage, etc. This is always the root cause of the problem especially in pugging.
Unfortunately, stats like that are also not a good judge of the whole picture. You wouldn't want to get declined forever because you had a few bad days. Or maybe some bad ISP service. It could be anything.
Delves giving 616 rewards to people who shouldn't even sniff a +2 key doesn't help in the lower keys bracket lol. And the upper keys bracket is full of Mythic raiders reaping the rewards Blizzard is handing them simply because Mythic raider. So they simply outgear the people who are only doing M+ and heroic raids for tier and trinks wpns. Then trying to push keys in their Goodwill gear. The Mythic raiders are saving tons of crests through gear ilvl and saving them upgrades. M+ only bro's out on the streets struggling to push past 620 ilvl and get into keys.
@@WoWatNight I wouldn't suggest that the score goes down for a bad run, I would say that there are several tiers of score for each level. Instead of just getting the same points based on a timed key or not, you would get score depending on how well you did. If you get 20 points for the run and your team mate gets 100, the system could say, "To increase your score further, interrupt more, die less, do more dps, etc". That way someone who has a 2k rating could play with other players who are 2k and they would know they are capable of doing 7+s effectively.
I played in both Vanilla raids when the difficulty was really low although player knowledge was low too, and I’ve done Mythic raids including mythic Sylvanas back in SL. Reflecting on the differences, Vanilla was actually better because you could befriend almost anyone on the server, and now you have to find precisely 19 other individuals who are nearly perfect at the game. M+ was a slight reprieve from this where you could get mythic raid gear without taking a 2nd full time job, but that seems to have come to an end too. TWW started off strong, but now I’m considering playing Throne and Liberty for the rest of the year.
@@Soulessdeeds personaly, i pugged my way up to 10s in the first week, with 0 raid loot, or even a single raid boss kill (in any dificulty). Its possible to do it, but i see the problem why the players are stucked at lower difficulties. Its not easy. And the history of the game does not help this time, because in the past, if you did not get your myth trach gear from the vault (or max m+ chest), you are just a "bad player". It's simply not accepted within the player base to get stuck on a heroic-level M+ key, while at the same time, it's accepted to be stuck on a heroic-level raid. This is a contradiction that I think Blizzard should somehow resolve.
(Don't get me wrong, I would like M+ to be a fully-fledged pillar of the game and not just a support for raiding.)
It’s not nearly as bad in a coordinated group but pug scene has been obliterated
Indeed
As someone who has SOLELY TANKED or HEALED AND done M+ & HC raiding pugging since Legion, I got 2.5k in S2/S3 in DF. I can’t get past a key level of 4 in WWI because the keys are horrendously terrible, tanks are cucked and if one player screws up minorly, the mechanics kills everyone and then everyone loses their mind and leaves. Where as Delves mean I can enjoy the game. I love M+ and HC pugging but this season is the worst ever.
@@craynak did 10 on prot paladin second week while its bottom tier rn , your exagerating or your bad and need to actualy save cds for mob tank busters and dangerous pulls , where in df you were using cds for actual no reason and survive anyway cause your too tanky even without cds , now u have to actualy do cd management , crazy right , u have to actualy think sheeeeesh.
@@sharkstaint1373 pretty stupid calling him bad when a group consists of 5 people. Congrats on playing your pally with the first most dedicated wave of players (that interrupt) the first couple of weeks.
@@immodsr9348 i played on pugs u weirdo , did u assume im on the top 10 ladder ? u smoking or something , im a literal solo player since bfa , and i can do shit by trying , i don't complain , i do stuff and wait for updates , and you guys instead of trying and make your own keys cause its way easier to pick good comps and good players you enter some random dude key that is clueless and can't time it instead of pushing your key , i got my key from +2 to 9 in two weeks barely spaming stuff.
Just how bad brewmaster is compared to other tanks killed it for me. The damage intake is THROUGH THE ROOF compared to other tanks and we don’t have self sustain till midway through pulls due to expel harm and celestial scaling with damage taken. This is while I could have an easier time playing a prot warrior which just doesn’t take damage at all
Then the monk community discord is so used to monk being ridiculously awful that they’re snorting copium about how “good” monk feels right now.
Yep, straight cope
Man that monk discord is a joke! I dont understand how they cope so jard, i think they think they are being “elite” by sayingits not that bad, but i just think they have no clie what they are saying sometimes. Monks are severely undertuned
Yeah I don't invite BM monks, they are dog ass lol. And I barely discriminate when it comes to specs.
I agree. The fun factor is just not there anymore at least for me playing a monk. I feel like I'm just the goofy mascot of the raid group. I have to put in 3x more work just to get respectable results while our warrior is over there playing solitaire while tanking. Our damage feels bad as well. I'm currently working on a dh.
Mythic queen was downed with a bear and monk. Also, I'm laughing as prot pally lol. Qq more.
Playing a mistweaver monk this season is a nightmare in keys, im fine running delves and heroic raids
I might be in the minority but i like that it's only a single voice line.
Depends on how many you're running a day.
I agree the reward range needs to change.players gear to 610’s through delves and vault but then need to jump to like 7+
Exactly.
ive failed more keys this season than s2,s3 and s4 combined, they have until my acc runs out to fix this shit to feel more akin to s3 or s4 in terms of enjoyment
You'll come back anyways.
Those Xalatath affix sounds you’ve mentioned are driving me nuts as well lol. They are much louder than other sounds in the game. I’ve actually gone through the wowhead sounds database and tried adding the bulk of them to a blacklist in the leatrix plus addon. I’ll probably end up working on a small addon or weakaura to disable them all and then call it XalatathSissyDisabler because I’m tired of hearing her say “become who you truly are” as if I’m browsing a WTMYWTSC thread
I absolutely adore pushing in M+ atm, despite its many, many problems (that I have been very vocal about in some Reddit posts by other people) because I simply love TWW. The biggest problem right now is clearly the reward structure in M+ (hero items should start dropping at +6, gilded crests at +8 and myth items at +9, imho), followed by some dungeons being massively overtuned, especially the Stonevault.
weird
Nerfing Tanks serf sustain healing and many of the keys this season are just a pain to tank. It's just a recipe for making a already hard to find role even harder to find. Allot of Ret paly's in the game right now. And the VAST majority of them avoid tanking because Prot paly is turbo dog crap right now. People actively decline you if you try to que to their keys as prot paly. But will take you if your ret. Just wild to see right now.
I completely agree with you. Prot paladin‘s niche in pushing keys with randoms (or in general) is completely dead now. If you start off-healing your dd‘s you‘ll go oom and the Spike dmg in higher keys is so extremely overtuned that Bosses and trashpacks will just 1 shot you if you don‘t block… nice rng. There are so many moments where i am not AT ALL in control of the Situation it’s ridicoulus…
Tbf, Ret brings some insane burst AoE damage to the table, perhaps one of the strongest in the game right now.
They somehow have unlearned things SL and DF taught them. Limiting gear accessibility as they did first SL season just kills the game for a large part of the player base. No, the game doesn’t owe anyone big ticket items but if the entire max level gameplay comes down to gear progression, you better make sure the carrot on the stick is placed right at the tip of a players nose but not miles away. 2nd them changing when fortified and tyrannical kicks in was explained as a means to make transition from one key level to the next more linear. The new affix structure does the very opposite, you hitting a brick wall at 10/12.
Absolutely. People want to have fun with their leisure time, and gating that behind difficulty and time is a really bad strategy for long-term player retention.
As someone who is usually a "get my portals by the end of the season" and play several characters, each season. I'm currently stuck on 5s as a tank, because the pugs I'm getting can not beat the DPS checks on some of the bosses on tyrannicals. There are a number of bosses where it feels like the right amount of dps from the 3 dps needs to be about 700k each on tyrannical... and they just don't have the throughput in the 610-615ilvl gear that they have to be in the 4-6 bracket.
the system just isn't very good
Granted I may be biased because I play prot warrior (pretty meta) and brewmaster (designed to be the least spikey damage taken) but I think tank survivability is just fine. If you walk into a pack with no minor defensive / mitigation button up you get slapped around at high keys but it's a pretty easy skill to learn to for example charge to the closest mob in the pack so you are still in front of the mobs and not getting hit in the back then hit shield block first global (and every other tank spec has a version of this).
The real issue with this season as someone who plays healer also is that a lot of mechanics literally require your DPS to know how to play and use defensives which has never been required of them outside high keys in the past.
You could get to ksm pretty easy the past few xpacs as a DPS never hitting a defensive once and be fine but now when you get to around +6 you have to actually know that you can't just raw dog something like the dot on siege last boss if your healer dispelled the other debuff first, and there's several of these per dungeon. Your healer can save you a couple times but when they're out of CDs DPS start dropping like flies when it comes on them to use a personal or die.
What level are you playing brew in? We find it has problems at 9 and up. But you're right about DPS.
@@WoWatNight 8s and 9s and a single untimed 10 since he's my alt but I also am pretty poorly geared at 610. You're definitely more reliant on getting some amount of healing and I do have to kite sometimes but stagger makes it so you don't insta floor pov like some other tanks in my experience.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head of everything im experiencing right now. As someone who loved doing dragonflight mythics only in pugs (i dont raid), and pushing towards +20 (or now +10) for fun, its insane how punishing even something like even a +4 can be now. Add in the death penalty at 7 and its totally rediculous, considering you can get better gear from doing delves right now (even if you cant upgrade them). Ive never seen such toxicity in the game.. so much that im struggling to want to go right now (i consider myself to be an above average player)
Im really hoping they fix what state this is in, because im really enjoying expansion a lot otherwise.. but i miss my end game mythics that arent 40 mins of looking for a group to have it disband before the first boss.
Yup, they have definitely made the game a lot less accessible to the majority of players, and for an MMO, that's a really bad design decision.
I'm only playing up to heroic raid, and low M+, and for me I'm pretty happy with 619 ilvl being the reasonable cap for gear I can achieve for the content I'm doing.
In relation to the discussion about M+ difficulty though, my primary concern is the rewards of low M+ in relation to delves. Believe this won't happen in future patches, but having 12+ coffer keys to use on tier 8 the first week it was available, was far too many, and should've been capped so we'd be forced to spend them early. The quality of the rewards for delves (the champ gear) is fine by me, but they also need to fix delves to be unique from dungeons by specifically designing them to be harder in a group than solo. (i.e. dungeons already get easier with more players, delves aren't different if they follow the same scaling pattern) All this to say, that the rewards of running low M+ felt unrewarding in relation to delves.
I feel the same way as a Delve only player. I'm fine with 619 and will keep playing on my main and four alts even after I have them all geared to that level. 619 is more than enough to do anything in the game and I'll be doing heroic raid pugs as well..
huh.
Good video that sums up the community feeling atm. Problem is most people just tell us to “get good”
Even if you are good :)
Have tried a m+ yet, and by the sound of it , I’ll wait lol
Its not so bad. He is just trying to get some click with drama.
Above comment is reaching. We're echoing the same sentiments as MDI groups
my main issue with the new affixes is xalatath does not shut up. The only option to silence her is to make the whole game go to silence. But in this game, everything is silent, even the WA's and boss mods. I dont mind the 1 voice line, because i dont want to hear it. I want the basic wow voice lines and sounds silent during a m+ run.
It's pretty annoying, for sure.
It absolutely feels like they did zero testing. This is an issue you'd notice within the first hour.
People forget that WoW is a loot based game… spending a couple hours on a few keys, half deplete you can net 5/10 crests and no loot. Not to mention how stressful those hours were. That kind of reward can burn people out. They continually make the game towards the top 1%.
Yeah, they aren't really listening.
Agree with everything you've said here. IMO this is all partially intended. First; they always ignore a moderate amount of live issues. Second; Delvs is the new hot thing, and they want to push people into delvs. M+ being in shambles is and easy "win" to push players who will be playing WoW anyways into the thing they can do more consistently. Third; they seem to design philosophy for dungeons and raid that they have to be more complicated and difficult than the previous cycle. I've considered myself a pretty avid M+ player primarily playing tank and heals in the groupfinder pug scene and I've been completely turned off for M+ since season start. On a side note, world content including delvs has been a blast for my dps alts that hardly see game play in past expansions.
I tend to play M+ semi-hard core, I used to like pushing with into higher keys with low gear just to see how far I can get, this season I've slowly moved my way up in keys as my gear got higher... like I'm 610 this week on my warrior and pally, and still don't feel comfortable Tanking anything higher than a 5 or 6. tanking for has been the most frustrating and un rewording experience since I started in legion. I've honestly considered calling it quits this season and waiting to see if they fix M+ for season before I come back. the lack any real mitigation trinkets for tanks this season also killed it for for me.
The trinkets are dogwater
genuine dislike that after week one m0 was obsolescing due to delves and that we only got 8 dungeons for season 1 when the m0s were clearly good and fun current content.
people are having trouble with the dark orb mechanic on dawnbreaker 3-4 weeks in lol.
give keys from 0 just it's not great, but at least it's not cata p1
Yep, season 1 should just be the new stuff
Another thing to add is the key drop chance. It feels like NW keys drop from the vault/rerolls more than any other, while the fun ones like DB are rather rare.
Definitely something weird going on with key rerolls this season.
I also love to play alone. With randoms. I dislike the familiarity of a coordinated group. And would rather be pleasantly surprised by strangers. I’ve found that +14 or around there is my absolute stopping point. As not many strangers will advertise available groups for higher keys on lfg. Besides my own. But i still love the experience during an expansion. Feels like a true solo queue experience.
That is a wild take. But OK, you do you
I agree on the feedback regarding keylvl range for myth track/crests and the +7 affix.
What I don't get is the demand for more mechanics instead of scaling affixes. How does this improve the M+ experience? Do you want to drive away even more players?
15-20 minute runs? Should trash packs fall over after 10 seconds regardless of difficulty? The fastest M+ dungeon ever - Maw of Souls - had an 18 minute timer, 3 bosses and maybe 50 trash mobs. A 15 minute instance would be nearly non-existant as such. Also it would tolerate even less failures/wipes leading to runbacks. The addition of the equivalent of 2 extra keylvls at 12 is irrelevant. If you had spend any time on looking at the keylvl ceiling of the past you should be well aware that the first 5 keylvls past vault cap were always super irrelevant. They never gave extra benefits and the top rating for seasonal finish started way beyond that.
If you go full armchair dev, at least think about your suggestions for more than 5 minutes.
Also: The 4 crest types are irrelevant or rather never relevant at the same time since you will only ever be dealing with 2 at best at any time during gearing.
Ok
100% agree. They could leave the crest caps if they shift the dungeon rewards back to DF breakpoints. Think that would be a happy medium and a good Segway to help people gear up for higher content
Crest breakpoints need to be lower
No one has convinced me I need to do m+. So I haven't. If you are willing to go slower this season you can skip m+
Seriously, if they keep improving Delves and solo queue rated RBGs, I'm fine with sticking with those as my main gameplay loops. That and some random heroic raid pugging.
we're not willing
I wonder if the biggest influences to this season are just knee jerk reactions to the way that M+ was being played. Especially at a higher end.
VDH/AoE stops solving all of the interrupts, resulted in the casting changes. Tanks being far too survivable kneecaped into being somewhat shaky.
Players timing dungeons like RLP despite dying 15+ times. giving us the new Challenger's Peril affix.
High end key pushers flexing really hard on 30+ keys, resulting in difficulty tuned for those guys.
healers going DPS on the first bosses of dungeons and then switching back. Meaning we need crushing amounts on damage on all bosses!
As a healer this season (PresEvoker) I play the russian roulette as a PuG healer. I feel like at any moment my entire group can end up being less than 1 GCD from evaporating. Which, feels uhhhh, stressful.
Will that tank properly mitigate? Who knows!
Oh, this tank is pulling these packs together like a psycho! Oh he's at 30%, and 70+yds away!
Oh that DD got clipped by one of the many many many telegraphs going out. He's at 10%.
BTW 3 seconds until the boss starts burning the whole group to the ground.
The stated goal of the +7 affix was something along the lines of punishing dps who don't press defensives....but it mostly punishes healers who don't have viper reflexes.
I think the new Xalatath affixes are...alright. They get people to move around in different ways, everyone contributes to them. I think they should be less punishing for failing them, because there are simply too many situations where they aren't feasible to deal with. Orbs spawning across the room, or in void zones. or during overlaps, etc.
I think the craziest part of this season is that Siege of Boralus, the worst dungeon in every single season (by data) it has ever been, in isn't even the hardest of the bunch. Despite being a janky awful mess.
Oh, most definitely. This season is an overreaction to S4 VDH and Dragonflight M+ in general. Huge missteps in this expansion because of mistakes made in the last one. That's the Blizzard Difference!!
@@WoWatNight
If Blizzard tuning was a chef at a restaurant. he would either forget to season your dish, or dump enough salt onto your plate to make the Dead Sea jealous.
It's the community and the damn Metas. It's almost impossible to get into a decent key if you're not Meta. It's sickening.
But my BM hunter is 2650 only with pugs....
You're not telling the whole story. You could be a 500 rated player trying to pug into 10s also quick fix push your own key up that way you get into every key
huh.
so far my biggest complaint about mythic plus as a tank is the spike damage from auto from mobs, had it a few times when im pulling and as i get all the mobs together and watching my health go from 100% to 30% in half a second doesn't feel good, it feels like i take more damage from autos then any other mechanic that isnt meant to be a wipe mechanic
i also wish they push up the numbers on the keys close to back where they were, make 15's the current 10 and so on giving the low keys a chance to learn for other players instead of being punished right away
there is also the people leaving and more in general toxic people but i feel like that is talked to death at this point
We like the number squish but agree about the damage spikes
People will not learn if the key is too low tho, reason is: incoming raid wide dmg or single target one shot does not do enough dmg for people to realise. You need to player higher keys to understand what will kill you and the team
Also doesn’t help that you have a dungeon like Dawnbreaker where you can just get stuck randomly and be unable to do anything about it. Get stuck in ship, brick key.
Yeah, it was tested... Sure. Lol
Legit, best change they could make is "key does not deplete if you clear the dungeon/you have X tries until it depletes". As it stands, past a certain level it encourages people to be extremely toxic as each failure (especially a wipe with the -15 timer penalty) can brick a key. 5 x 15 = 75 seconds. Aside from timer penalty, you also have the fact that mobs hit like fucking trucks making tanking not fun at any level. Dawnbreaker, for example, the adds on the second zepplin (the 3 dudes) will fuck even with active DR up. Past a certain point, it is no longer so much a fun challenge as it is a luck of the draw as to if your healers + dps are strong enough to keep you up and make sure they interrupt/dps it fast enough
I got all portals last season (DF s4) and was 1 minute short of timing a 12. I have given up on M+ this season and expect to cap out at ilvl 619 unless i get accepted into mythic raid (i did pug raid a bit last season too) which is unlikely if you are more than 5-10 under gear cap.
Probably go above 619 with vaults
Just wanna confirm if this is true on EU... When searching for M+ Filtering by Has Tank never shows any results for M+ groups for any dungeon with no rating requirement, but tonnes pf groups when filtering for only groups where theres only a healer, is this right?
Sounds like a bug if it's working like that.
I have been seeing posts like, "This voidbound shield mob affix has ruined the game, I am done". So I expected a ridiculous, whiny video. On the contrary, you nailed it! Very educated, thoughtful, and insightful look at M+ and how to improve it.
The death penalty affix is atrocious but let’s be honest, there are a lot of very bad, inexperienced players in decent ilvl this season thanks to Delves.
It doesn’t help that M0’s were a failure in teaching mechanics as we outgeared then day one.
Delve gear isn't that good. You only get one heroic track piece a week.
@@WoWatNight Delve gear isn’t the best but you can fully gear up to a ilvl that’ll get you into mid keys. Someone who has done only the raid + delves and gotten around 610 ilvl without touching dungeons is definitely concerning when they expect to skip 0-4s and go straight into 6s and 7s completely blind.
This is the same problem we had back in Legion with World Quests. You could essentially skip the majority of lower content by doing daily quests and go into harder keys with no experience at all.
@@MikeyJ232 tbh I really don't feel bad if I come across as mildly toxic to people that can't be bothered to properly manage wipe mechanics. Dawnbreaker orb mechanic comes to mind. It's insanely disrespectful to the rest of the group if you're queuing into my key but don't understand the mechanic, and end up bricking it.
Idc if people don't want to beta test, go on ptr, watch video guides, but at the very least READ THE DUNGEON JOURNAL BEFORE DOING M+.
If there wipe on a key it's 75sec lost, the run back and the time wasted on that encounter. So it's about at least 2-3 min lost. If you wipe on a boss on like 20 or 30% you looking at 4-5min lost. So how is this making good push week on any week
Plus 2 and 3 shouldn’t have timers it’s crap gear and crests anyway.
+8s should be mythic crests and mythic track in the vault
new affixes are literally offering nothing, we kept getting the emissary at the end of every pull the whole dungeon. Their buff duration is 0.
dungeon tuning and bugs are still a mess and also the old ones that got chosen are not even fun dungeons, more like annoying.
class balance is nowhere to be found when every group is just Prot warrior, Resto shaman, frost DK, Mage, Aug/ 2nd shaman.
The community is so driven from youtube videos and livestreams that they are not inviting anything other than these 5 specs and nothing below 2.5k score. it's at the peak of toxicity with people cursing everyone after 1 death and then leaving the group.
Yep, all that. It's quite annoying
sup dude, are you planning on doing a how to tank mythic dungeons in s1?
We were planning that but then a hurricane came through and we don't have electricity. We'll see.
Pretty much agree with everything you said here! One thing I'd add is having to do 10's currently for the max vault reward is daunting and I'm really not looking forward to running 8 10s every week on my main to just have a chance of those bis trinkets.
Yeah, putting the Mythic-track vault reward at the same level as portals is a baffling decision.
I also want M to drop more pieces. It's so stupid getting to only play a few dungeons a night and having absolutely nothing to show for it. Meanwhile, every single bountiful delve guarantees an item, upgrade or not I get SOMETHING.
True
yeah but solo where is the fun ... gearshopping is delves and not and MMoRPG content
its diablo immortal without internetconnection
Then run deleves stupid🤣
This season might be the first time since 2005 that I will cancel my subscription.
owke have a safe flight! ..ow wait this isnt the airport
You wont be missed
@@mckriel you're not nice, learn empathy please
@@karolusmagnus3992 you are right that was mean. so tired of hearing people cry over how difficult it is. entitlement
@@karolusmagnus3992 some blizzard employees in the comments section here
Trying to play an assa rogue in keys atm. My main problem right now as someone who pugs mainly is: 1: the amount of “do this or die mechanics” and 2) the 15 seconds upon death is horrid.
absolutely
I was doing +25-28s keys and now +10s are feel inaccessible for some reason. Lower keys are infested with bad players, higher ones you can´t really get into for some reason :D
Funny that
If you have previously done 25-28 keys then you should be at the 13-14 range on keys now. Simple as that
Iv'e been playing windwalker this season and currently have close to 2500 io, yet it is hard to get into anything above and 8. I pull high numbers on bosses and every pack even without cd's yet it seems people much prefers meta classes over those with the score and DPS. on average it take 1 hour to get accepted into a group and 30 minutes to complete the key, so after one key I'm pretty much done for the day. It's really frustrating that people recognizes the class and not the player.
I don't necessarily mind the gearing pacing. I feel like its still pretty fast and you can honestly still do 9/10s around 610-615ilvl which is pretty easy to get to. The main issue I think is that the key squish and difficulty ramping has made everything feel less rewarding. If you feel under geared or need to make just a little progress on your rating, you feel like you're stuck because the jump from a 6 to 7 is pretty large, the jump from an 8 to 9 is large, then the jump to 10-11s to a 12 is enormous. Whereas before if I was stuck on a 17-18 range of keys, there was more options available to me to work little by little on my score because of the wider range of difficulty scaling. The current affixes are honestly fine. This week's is actually a little hated on for silly reasons: it spawns in execution range, which makes it an easy nuke, plus for Disc Priests it actually makes it a great healing recovery target because they can back to back Touch of Death and it tops everyone off. Just wish they would make the scaling of the dungeons better so that players can either do the minimum and get KSM on all their alts and still feel challenged, while also offering plenty of a ladder for the hardcore io pushers to climb and feel rewarded as they continue to progress.
This is a bit all over. We don't see 610s timing 10s unless they buy it
@@WoWatNight Group Five of Alterac Mountains has a handful that were timing 10s 2 weeks ago at 611ilvl
Set groups are not part of this discussion
@@WoWatNight Quazii was also doing it via pugs
I’ll be honest with you, I just don’t want to do it anymore. I beat ?? once, did all delves. Literally could not be bothered to do it for another season.
M+, I’d rather grade my nuts on a cheese grader than deal with another season of inflated egos, leavers, and toxic attitudes.
Raiding, take M+ and add 15 other people I’d rather not get to know or play with. Most of these guys I wouldn’t even nod at at the grocery store let alone want to associate with them in a game.
Ive come to realize that this game isn’t for me and The War Within isn’t a story about a struggle with a void tainted baddy but rather my own war within with this video game and me not liking it anymore.
We totally get it. If we didn't have financial motivations to keep playing... we're not sure we would.
I want to add my 2 cents here and say that as someone who pugged my way to 20-22 last season comfortably, even if i did so slowly, this season is so much worse.
The amount of responsibility placed on DPS players is just too much. I can no longer carry keys like i did on my VDH and ProtPala. Every single time on last boss of Ara-Kara for exampled, someone gets killed in the first cosmic, just as an exampled.
The timers are awful in some dungeons. I like to feel out pug healers at the start of a key and then increase pull size if the healer seems up to it and/or dps are doing a good job interrupting and if it feels too risky i'd simply slow down on pull size and do slow and safe. In many dungeons at 10 that will make you deplete timer even without wipes.
Healers have it even worse.
The sheer amount of mechanics in most pulls and the amount of individual responsibility makes me feel like i have no control over the success of the key anymore.
And the toxicity is incredible. I have an absolute no tolerance policy for abuse and will leave if someone starts that. Last boss of CoT i miscounted the tankbuster and ran back after 2 orbs instead of 3 and killed someone, on a key that was already depleted because DPS kept standing in stupid things and got blamed immediately for everything going wrong in the key (i made this 1 mistake).....
Things aren't good atm
Yeah, DF pugging was much easier.
Since i dont do „rewarding keys“ for gear farming and started Doing 10s and 11s sometimes 9s, there Are much better Players in this dungeonpool and pugging feels good imo
Push your own key up that way you get to be that asshole that picks and chooses who gets to brick your runs😂
@@jacobhamilton7618 i Always do
huh.
the 7 affix 15s penalty per death is so dumb when you stay there and wee how someone grieves the group and i dont blame the players. this is so toxic affix they introduced and otherwise its way overtuned for non curs dispell healer
If they revert just this one change, things will be much better. We get bosses or trash mobs getting buffed in the form of weekly rotations. And both forms had separate scores and will be combined to contribute to one's mythic+ score. But they changed this in a way where only your highest clear score in a dungeon would be summed up. Bring back the old, two separate clear score combination system!
We don't want that at all
Hey, thanks for talking about the toxicity in pugs that is nurtured by this season's dungeon tuning and changes. Too often this is overlooked by content creators because they have their buddies to play with and the pug-life is looked down and we're even called "lazy." In my opinion, there's nothing more in line with an MMO than logging on and being ready to do difficult content with total strangers.
Exactly
Legion M+ was fun. Go back to the beginning designs.
That was fun (to me anyway) because of the randomness of Titanforged items having a chance to drop as well as a legendary. Doing repeat runs had chances at awesome upgrades and I actually quite enjoy that ARPG loot style of gameplay in MMOs. WQs were also more fun and varied in Legion as well and had chances at insane gear. I actually love that sort of random gear drop chance in MMOs. Blizzard cleaned the game up too much due to people crying too much about it. That's what drove me away in BFA and SLs.
Delves gave that gameplay style back to me for now and I wish WQs were fully unlocked and more fun again too.
I generally dont mind the difficulty level, although the increase from 9 onwars is slightly stupid. What I do mind is both the dungeons as well as the teammates. The timer are tuned quite tightly and most of the dungeons have parts that will wipe people who dont pay enough attention. Combined with the 15 sec penalty and the effects that delve have, thats a pretty cool way of making life hell for pug groups.
From my point of view, a lot of the problems come from delves giving free loot thats way too good for the amount of time and effort you have to put in to get it. Pretty much everyone has 605-610 Ilvl without even having seen an m+ or raid, which IS an issue. Those people, who never raided or did m+, now have to go nhc/hc raid or m+ > 6 so get gear that is an upgrade and a lot of them try to do it. Additionally, there are a lot of people who want(ed) to try m+ this season, simply because its the first time they have gear to do so, but skip the lower level, so they never have a learning part before running keys that are quite punishing. Considering that most WoW player these days have a huge ego regardless of skill, thats a pretty good way to ruin a lot of runs.
Oh, and due to the free gear through delves, there is simply no need for a lot of people to run m+ keys. So a lot likely gave it a try, saw how annoying the dungeons are and went back to delving.
Delving isn't our favorite either
I love tanking in TWW. I only do delves so I can’t speak for M+ but delves tanking is fun.
Well we're talking about M+ in this video :)
SL season 4, DF season 2&3 were peak M+ for me. As much as I like TWW as an expansion, S1 feels bad. I like the voice lines, I wonder how much more it would have actually cost to get 5 variations. Bosses need this too.
Key depletion needs to go, in fact I even think this season wouldn't feel so bad IF they got rid of it.
Think about it why does this season suck? You're depleting more as one mistake from some random (or yourself) and you can take anywhere from 15- 1m 15 sec penalty. And then someone leaves and you have to carry the burden of getting another group and going through a whole dungeon a level lower to get back to where you started (if you're lucky and time it with worse players because oh boy is it noticable going down the key levels this expansion).
Whereas if you messed up and were missing the timer because of 1 person you simply just remove that person and find 1 person and try again. Then the only person punished is the guy making the mistake not the person who put their key up.
I like difficult challanges but the rewards of M+ are not scaled with the difficulty. It simply doesnt worth it.
Yep, we hear you.
Is anyone else experiencing bugs during boss mechanics? On the last boss of dawnbreaker +6, the extra action button didn't prompt for me, and the key holder when you pick up the bomb.. we would've timed the damn key.
yes
I think the affix only having one voice line is intentional, especially since it seems to be louder than everything else in the game. It's to help people recognise the affix is actually happening
We can learn more than 1 voice line lol
They said they dont want to make each dungeon to be big pull after big pull, yet now we barelly have a spot where tank could display mastery of forming big pull, cause its full on artificial blockades for big pulls, also so many casts with new changes to cc in general makes pugging stuff terrible, i main healers and always keep my tank up when squad is not online to pug with it, yet i just dont find this enjoyable, in SLs3 i had 5 tanks for that purpose
Everything is off really
I main tank in m+ since BFA S1, this season has been maybe the hardest season to play tank and also pug keys since ... well i'd say SL S1, i feel like they don't know how to tune the game, to please sweaty tryhards or casuals ?
Also while i'm playing with good players, 12 keys are a BRUTAL wall that need to be prog like a mythic raid and i'm fine with that BUT !
Keys needs to stop being depleted, it's very toxic for people that don't inject 15 hrs a day as a team to push key and practice, to deplete their key and waste time fishing to 12 again to hope time it...
They definitely do not know what they want M+ to be. Very similar situation to delves, tbh. Tuning has been an absolute disaster this expansion.
Well said, and I agree! Fix the reward structure and the other problems go away. People play Mythic plus for gear, not because they want to do Mythic plus.
Exactly!
They also threw in 10 items in a dungeons loot table making it extremely hard to get say the trinket from grimbatol or ara kara, the grind is insane, I got tired after grinding so many +9s and almost 20% of those runs grp fails and everyone leaves before finishing
Absolutely
I don't get how they don't take raiding as an example. The current raid tier is a lot of fun and generally with raiding with each difficulty jump there are mechanics added in a similar more natural way. Just get rid of affixes entirely. For example: Speaker Shadowcrown gets an added beam at +9 or in city of threads the last boss has another orb added that players need to dodge. Stuff like that. U know like actually make it more mythic.
That would do it.
I dno, i celebrate M+ finally being hard. I have all but abandoned Mythic raiding. There has been absolutely no incentive for me to commit hours upon hours each week progressing a boss, if i can simply turn my brain off and zug zug through a +8 with the same or better gear rewards. Also to your point "Gearing too quick? Its like having too much icecream" while having just said you would simply clear whatever m+ rewarded the highest gear and quit is interesting, but i think most people agree. But you'd have to concede by saying that, that people would have no reason to return once they got all the gear, thus killing the season before it started.
Of course you enjoy it, you raided mythic. You probably enjoy CBT as well.
I feel the same way (never going back to heroic/mythic raiding after 12 years of it) but now I prefer Delves as my play style of choice as I've mostly been a solo MMO player since 1999. I have no time for further social constraints in a videogame anymore but still enjoy hard content and I hope they add further rewarding tiers in Delves in the future.
The fighting game scene going back to legendary levels of online play not seen since 2004/2005 is pretty good too. (random comment I know, but its something that ate into my early MMO game time 20 years ago and will be doing so again here soon when I get a proper set up next year for arcade sticks/tables/connections/etc.
ok
@@WoWatNight 😂
Yeah gear progression sucks. You can say its non existing. Most players are going to have reached the point where they have full hero track gear and are not getting the gilded crests to upgrade it. Stuck at a item level where they cant progress in M+ because it's too hard at 615 or so.
The game is asking them to do +9s for a few crests at 615, brutal.
They should just let people fully upgrade hero track gear with runed crests. and maybe have content drop double the current amount of runed crests.
9s and even 10s are easy at 615 ilvl. If you can't get gilded crests by now, why do you need them? You clearly aren't doing high keys or mythic raiding
Mythic plus is supposed to be there as an alternative to raiding, yet they all require each other. That's a problem.
Most people never do mythic raiding. Mythic raiding and myth gear is in a different universe from hero gear. Blizzard should at least make it possible to upgrade hero gear fully with runed crests.
Most people cant do 9s and 10s with 615. Mythic key pushers have a distorted view on this.
The question becomes. Does Blizzard want to retain more players on retail beyond a month after a season start or are they simply going to let them leave because of a lack of gearing options.
its not about letting people get easy myth gear. But give them something to work towards. And maybe eventually (if they can keep upgrading their hero gear) they can do a 10 for a greater vault myth piece.
i think this is reasonable.
@@schmidthGear progression in itself is what keeps people playing. What you think people will do when reaching their realistic gear cap 4 weeks into a 6 months season? Look back at SL season 1 and tell me that was healthy for the game.
The rough part for me as a tank is going from a 9 Tyr to a 10 with Fort and Tyr. From a 9 Fort to a 10 Fort + Tyr isn't bad since you're already dealing with the harder tank affix but man adding Fort on a 10 is rough. Really looking forward to 10s being homework keys so we don't dip under 10s again. I'd rather have it harder but constant.
They should drop tye whole other affixes and only have xalatath guile. Instead of thinking about a completely boring affix you can just play the dungeon normally but with Harder hitting spells and more health on mobs
I dont even mind the combination of tyrannical + fortified as non fortified mobs feel awful to put cooldowns into but also still do insane damage so your tank cant double pull. My main gripe is the non stop casting from mobs and the changes to stops no longer counting as interrupts. If your group spams stops, the mobs will eventually all line up their casts and if one person happens to get targeted by multiple mobs you'll just get globaled.
Also, challengers peril is an awful addition to the game. This needs to either get nerfed or removed. You should be allowed to have a few deaths in a +10 and still time it.
interesting
i always have a main "alt" that is build for meta tank and play it as serious as my main. learning about the tank changes in DF, playing abit and then decide to just stick to being a DPS until next season. This is the only xpac that made me do this.
The upgrade system is good as it is. We had a "single currency" upgrade system before, and it was worse by a lot.
We do not agree
I agree with almost everything. I thought you were going to also mention necrotic, grim batol and Stone vault requiring nearly every mob in the dungeon leading to no route choices. Necrotic was so much better before, was changed to make it less fun.
Good call
My tin foil theory for a long time now is that blizzard just hates M+
They are nostalgic for the good old days of wow and really just wish people would raid a lot more.
Like the reward structure of M+ in TWW is 100% due to the raids. M+ is always suffering because it has to take the raid into consideration.
Even delve gearing got preferential gearing compared to M+, they made all keys 7 keys. While at the same time making >7 keys the most difficult m+ content ever for pugs, further amplifying the toxicity.
I'd really like to see an expansion where they put m+ first as the big content they want people to interact with, not always picking raiding just because they think It's what wow is all about.
I really think the key squish was a big mistake, m+ should have a more gradual difficulty curve with gradual gear rewards.
And I don't really understand why they even did it, if you ran +18 keys previously It's not like you had to do +2 all the way up to 18 each week. We got new keys in the vault after the first week so never had to redo lesser content.
But for people progressing it was a really good way of learning the game until you could reach those higher tiers and greater rewards.
They want players to do everything, stay logged in forever
@@WoWatNight I agree, but if we suppose that players, maybe a lot of players, stay subscribed because they enjoy having that ilvl climb over a season.
By making this season so hard, especially by requiring 10+ to get myth track, once players upgrade their hero track what is there to do?
There are 15-16(depending on 2h or dw) slots to fill with myth track, you get 1 per week from the vault. Most will craft 2 pieces so that's 13-14 slots to fill with vault. With perfect vault luck that still 3.25-3.5 months of playtime to do that (and you wont have perfect vault luck, some weeks you won't upgrade at all so make that even longer).
If you make myth track out of reach for a lot of players, upgrading all your hero gear to max + 2 crafted pieces will only take 1.5 months of playtime.
They should want players to have access to myth track from vault so they stay engaged longer and have more to work towards.
One might say that as you upgrade your hero gear +10 will be more achievable and you can start doing that, but the community this time around seems very hesitant against picking players who are behind on score and ilvl.
Once you have upgraded your hero track, there will be myth track players who have both score and ilvl much higher than you, so the chance you get invited won't really increase since that chance is based on the relative progression against other players and you are way behind. This wouldn't be such a problem if the dungeons weren't so difficult.
You can already see it, dps have a really hard time even getting invited to +8 for crests since they might not have been able to get gilded in the weeks previous, so they are way behind on both score and ilvl. Why would you as keyholder pick a 610 player with 2k score when you could pick a 620 with more?
This only became the case when they added crests to 8, those were "easy" to get invited to when no higher lvl player wanted to do them. But if you just want to cap your crests as a +10 players why not run +8 since is easier and faster and reward the same amount.
My only two complaints around M+ this season is how unforgiving any error is, and the gates for gear rewards in the vault.
Having to do a +10 for a hope of a myth track piece is beyond what most “serious casuals” are able to do. I only play the game for M+ and some HC raids. I have limited time, but take m+ seriously. In previous seasons i was able to get to 2.8 to 3k RIO reliably. This season I doubt I will break 2k.
I want a challenge, but I don’t want to be beaten into the ground day in and day out.
Absolutely correct.
For me, the problem is that the tuning is extremely bad. I've come off a very long retail break (I last played retail in Legion) having played classic in the meantime, but even when M+ was new in Legion, i never remembered it being so difficult. The amount of one-shot mechanics even on lower key (hell, even M0 if you're a fresh 80 in Adventurer gear) is insane. It doesn't help that four of the dungeons on offer are just objectively bad (Mists comes down how well your group can handle the second boss, Ara-Kara has two bosses with mechanics that make or break a run if you just miss them once, Dawnbringer is so buggy that i'm honestly bewildered Blizzard decided to release it in this state and the less said about Boralus the better) and several others having massive Tuning problems doesn't help things either (Necro was legit unbeatable without pro groups because of the stacking debuff on the Surgeon, Grim Batol was legit unbeatable on higher keys because of the last boss).
Then there are numerous problems with class balance that need urgent attention; Pala tanks are essentially worthless, Druid healers are non-viable on higher keys due to the way Resto simply functions. Blizzard wanted to never go back to the dark days of TBC where entire classes were sidelined because they offered a subpar toolkit, but as it stands right now, TWW is sidelining classes even harder - just try to find groups as a Shadow Priest or a MM Hunter.
The new affixes on the other hand are actually really good, i like it that it introduces a mechanic that actually rewards you with something that isn't just survival if you pull it off correctly.
We agree with the first half but the new affixes keep spawning orbs off the map or showing up at the end of the pull, so they feel like a burden.