PROOF Overwatch 2 will NEVER Work (counter swapping)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 มี.ค. 2024
- Leave a like if you enjoyed & subscribe for more: bit.ly/2ttxnC0
Business inquiries ONLY (Private coaching is not a business inquiry!):
samito@loadscreen.gg
Stream Schedule:
Mon-Friday @ 11 AM EST ON THIS CHANNEL!
Follow me on Twitter:
/ samitofps
Join my discord!
/ discord
Twitch:
/ samitofps
Edited by:
PXTERZ
#Overwatch - เกม
It used to be "how do we beat/counter their comp?" Now it's "Let's just fuck their tank" lol
focus burst tank = auto win
Last week facing off against a good widow, my team runs a junk and a symm. I go sigma to use the shield to zone out Widow so I get a Mei to isolate me and get ganged from the team.
I switch to ball to dive widow and my junk and Symm get wrecked on the front line and I face a Sombra counter.
The result? I get reported by the 4 stack for throwing and banned for a month.
@@ryanwoods9608never put your eggs in one basket, build multiple accounts, become ungovernable
@@ryanwoods9608 lmao rip bozo
@@chiefinasmith I never said I did, I get reported a lot of times when we lose since I see them spam chat "report tank, tank diff" type of stuff
No matter how bad overwatch 2 gets, the devs wont change their format because they cant swallow their pride and accept that its flawed.
Crazy thing is it goes both ways if 6v6 were to come back yk everyone will be crying about how boring the game is n how much more toxic it will become I don’t see a world where anything this game does will satisfying it’s players plus the game is free now so people will leave the game for sure if they aren’t having a good time n 6v6 I only see myself having a good time if I have people on the enemy team that think they are playing call of duty
Dude, Samito isn't saying to remove 5v5; he's suggesting bringing back 6v6 in Quick Play or providing the option to play 6v6 for those who prefer it over 5v5.@@hamtrik1745
No, it's because they're being told to keep it this way, because it's financially incentivized for them to because little kids with their parents credit cards want faster games, because they want to play before they go off to school, so therefore they have to keep it this way because their financial model is selling skins now - in other words things that those little kids with their parents credit cards are gonna buy.
@@christopherlee9026 that’s literally what I’m saying but in short I.e free game , not fun ,players more likely to leave = no players = no money
I mean, credit where credit is due, as bad as OW gets I'd rather suffer thru OW than try to play CoD or something
tank synergies were so fun to watch, watching 2 masters of their heroes come together to make plays was so enjoyable
except for goats, that was the most mind-numbingly boring gameplay I've ever had to participate in, in my life!
But then role queue happen so?
@@milo4075 role queue still allowed for 2-tank synergies…?
@@heyomando1374 I'm responding to the guy that said goats meta
But realistically goats wouldn't be that strong if the aoe healing weren't so strong
@@milo4075 well with the -20% healing on tanks it wouldnt be that strong now
Overwatch 1 died for a battlepass.
And $20 shop skins
That shit was dead before ow2 quit lyin tp yourselves
@@deedeekreep9139 No, they left it to die with the promise that those 3 years would go on a "highly replayable PvE Story mode with skill trees"
Overwatch 1 died because it was an unsustainable format
@@MrGrreatness no the devs just killed it with double shield, leaving brig op for too long, and goats. if they added role queue faster and added off tank role along with it, I believe it would have been a sustainable product.
We were in a double shield meta for 3 years because the devs didn't work on the game, now we are in a counter swap meta for almost 2 years and the devs do work on the game now maybe there is something wrong with the format...
Sometimes I miss when GOATS was the biggest issue 😅
Or there is something wrong with the devs
There was no shield meta Sombra existed. Now she's ruined.
Double shield was the meta because the devs where too lazy to rework orisa before ow2
@@wonderofu1603 that too lol
I remember before OW2 came out, the devs were saying how they wanted to get away from counter-swapping and the whole rock-paper-scissors format of the game.
So much for that.
it got even worse with ow2 tbh
everyone who played the game enough to understand the basics of overwatch 1 should have known, that they got lied to the moment this argument was made. It's easy to see that this will make counter swapping even worse. But lets be honest here. Tank Players knew that. the rest of the playerbase does not care, because they can still have fun.
@@vibe7416Awkward was right to a certain extent. It's definitely possible to adapt to a bad matchup and win. You just won't have a good time. I main winston. I can win games against hog bastion comps. It's just fucking agonizing. Wins feel like losses because you had to work so much harder to get value than your opponents did. Burnout is caused by putting in effort without seeing enough reward. Playing tank in ow2 feels like that. But I agree that the counter problem has existed since the switch to 5v5. I think the reason people don't always think about it is that certain metas feel better than others. When hog or mauga are meta, they force certain switches - you have to play ana zen, you can't play winston or rein. People feel the counter problem more when there's an unhealthy meta.
The worst thing is that it's not only the enemy team counter swaps. The whole team counter swaps just to make your life miserable. If I go zarya, they switch to rein, pharmacy, zen. If I go dva, they switch to zarya, mei symetra. If I go doomfist, they switch to sombra, zen, ana. This is unbelievable.
Bring back 6v6
minor typo
I main Doomfist and once their team dies to me once or twice, it's an immediate Sombra and Orisa switch. I honestly can't remember the last game I've played where one, the other, or both are in play.
@@dustinbiester4401 lmao for real
almost as if half the tanks werent meant to be played alone cause they can get hard coutnered HUH, but yk 5v5=good in their mind
The only problem is that once they Introduce 6v6 back into overwatch 2, then they have to accept that there is no point for ow2 to even exist and that will never happen .
Absolutely, this is probably the biggest reason why they don't wanna try it
I disagree. I think the MASSIVE influx of players to help sustain the game in a different way is a valid reason for OW2 to exist. It brought a new frontier. They just ruined it.
They already deleted pve which was the whole reason for OW2 - 5v5 was just a nerf to playing with your friends
There is no point anyway. The people who wanted OW2 have all been fired by Microsoft. Time to move on.
The average experience as a tank player in ow2 is just getting called “trash” every time you lose a match😭😭
Hearing "tank diff" everytime you dont solo carry a game without blowing up
@@RealSlxzz this happens every game even the winning ones, i hate it, im not bronze 5 i dont deserve to be treated like shit.
@@RealSlxzz bro i remember some bozo mercy telling me iam shit after just pocketing her DPS bf because i didnt run to save after her BF ran out of skill which was very fucking often
That’s best case scenario 😂
The best decision I’ve made as a tank player is to turn off all match communication and just communicate by pings. I recommend it, you lose nothing of value.
The tank role went from “which player is better” to “which hero is better.” I saw a comment under Flats’s video saying OW2 is just fancy rock paper scissors, which is completely right. The only counter play in the game now is to counter swap and it’s slowly killing the game
Man people in this comment section are saying the game is dying for 2 years now. Turns out it isn't dead yet.
All gamers do is bitch and moan. @@TockMinecraft
as a tank player samito is genuinely putting my pain to words. 5v5 tank is just not what it used to be even compared to season 1 of ow 2. this season is the season that finally made me fold on 5v5. it's just not balanceable without a major change to the current game and characters (which is essentially just ow 3) or 6v6. the tanks weaknesses are just too purposefully crafted for tank synergy, and without having anyone to cover for those weaknesses you just become a cooldown sponge unless your character has the sheer stats or counter cooldowns.
edit: grammar? what is that?
Have to make every single tank be able to do everything, everywhere, all at once.
As a tank main I feel pretty fucking unappreciated in OW2, I get hard countered every game usually because I am noticeably doing my job and we can't have that. I get flamed by my own team when my dps chain feed and then blame me and i get no joy outbof winning, just relief.
Best way to treat your tiny tank population, get them banned due to toxicity reports from braindead (mostly dps) and make them not want to even play the game anymore since we get every play cancelled from support denial abilities while having a CC/Discord magnet around our necks every game.
Just dont Q Tank anymore
If a lot of Tank players quit, the Qtimes for every other Role increases a lot and they either have to
1. Rework Tank to be fun again (maybe 6v6)
2. Delete all Tanks and make the game 4v4 lol
And i know what they would pick, lets just say they wont throw 12+ Heroes with Skin Sales in the trash.
Obviously not every Person will quit tank, but if enough people are fed up with their bullshit, we might be able to increase the Qs of everyone by a few Seconds maybe even minutes and thats already good enough for me. I mean we already see since OW2s release so many people quit tank and the Qs increase, it wont stop there.
@@heiko2255 ironically I have quit via the reporting system, I went from Plat 3 back up to Diamond 1 this season by being a little less brain dead than others and picking my spots and I got banned for "throwing" after having multiple teammates blaming me basically every loss while rolling a 70% win rate.
70% relief 30% my fault.
@@ryanwoods9608just leave tank role for your own sanity. i was tank role in old days but now i just play damage role. Fricking devs ruined the fun of that role. Sometimes i play queen but only when doing weekly challenges crap.
Banned? You probably had to defend against these rats. Mute and don't join vc. The game has become more toxic than any moba games :D
Dude fr. If i get one more report my account since OW1 with my OG skins will get banned. Funny thing is, I have never said anything against chat guidelines in chat. Shit is stupid how toxic people are on this game to their only tank.
90% of dps roster were a cosmetic role for like 7-8 seasons while being flamed on by overtuned tank and OP brainded supports. Imagine having to outduel a character that both practically stronger than you and objectively easier while also being at a timer cuz boi if the second supports starts healin u ain't killin
Now do what we did for ~2 years. ADAPT and pray for 6v6 with us
“You suck tank”
What am I supposed to do when I’m getting blasted by 4 heroes while discorded, or not discorded? And 20% reduced healing?
EVEN WHILE PLAYING COVER.
One step to go around the corner, mid step, I lose 450 HP and die… don’t forget latency, dying 5 feet around the corner
it's not just latency, its the FOV. on my screen it looks like im already around the corner, but to them my whole body is still in view. it's been an issue since ow1 and it drives me nuts.
It's not rose tinted glass or nostalgia. 6v6 was THE formula and they ruined it
Those.
Mf's love to gaslight, cause they have no valid arguments.
And most of the people who prefer 5v5 will misdiagnose BALANCE issues in OW1 as 6v6 format issues.
You can’t frame tank synergies as solely an issue with the format. If that was the case, then more of them would’ve been complained about besides double shield. That’s a balance problem with that duo specifically.
there was never a formula, the game started out with no hero limits
@@FGPlusbro I have been enjoying 5v5 open q wayyyy more than role q this season. 2 tanks 1 dps 2 healers most games and it’s a absolute blast
@@lilwintery6434 Role queue proved to be a winning formula as it removed the goats problem.
Sure, it created some new issues with queue times, but they could’ve been mitigated by better balancing and improving the tank experience. The proof of that is the October 2020 patch since queue times weren’t an issue back then.
Man. They just don't understand how important the tank synergy was in ov1. It was literally the focal point of the team. And that is now gone. No other role creates the same type of synergy offensively or defensively.
I remember tanking in OW1, if the other tank was bad a common phrase to say out of frustration was "man, I'm solo tanking here" now that shit is default.
Not only will the tank experience be better, but also this will make dealing with leavers / disconnecters easier. In OW1 when you had one person leaving there was still a chance, but now it’s like no chance.
Just like when anyone dies now, you either get a pick and make the fight even or you lose. You only have like 5 seconds. If you don't make it even you just can't withstand the man advantage. But in 6v6 you could just regroup and still have a chance.
Ooo you just reminded me of the times I won a 5v6 or lost a 5v6 and how insane it felt. Now that you mention it, I've never won or lost a 4v5 in OW2. Every time there's a leaver that team gets rolled
I’ve won multiple 5v4s w all roles.
that‘s simply not true anything in this thread said is just wrong
@@j.w.213 that's simply not true almost everything said in this thread is right
6v6 will never come back because it would force blizzard to admit that OW2 was only created to make it a live service game with paid dlc.
Everyone already knows that. Like literally. And the public perception of blizzard is at an all time low. They literally have nothing to lose.
@@garikek this
@@garikek except their pathetic ego
They can just make it a 7v7 with 232
We all know that already tho. Blizz doesn't have to "admit" shit, they can spin the narrative into whatever makes them look good. We saw them do it with competitive 3.0
the most hype thing overwatch could do is re-release ow1
No. OW2 was a good play. It brought tons of players. TONS. Changing the format of the game, was a terrible move.
@@cabstevens Didn’t OW2 have a terrible launch day, then months later, people came back realizing the game was decent until now?
@@scumknight6074 that would be news to me. It's entirely possible, but ultimately it still brought in a larger player base either way.
@@cabstevens The amount of players OW2 gained is drastically less than the amount OW1 had at launch back when it won game of the year and was the only thing anyone was talking about. If they wanted to recapture that, OW2 was the exact wrong direction to go: OW1 succeeded because it catered to all types of gamers, not just sweaty FPS warlords. Turning every role into DPS with 5v5 was the exact opposite of that.
@@plasmakitten4261 I agree. I was just unaware that OW2 had a poor launch, but my point still stands. There is currently a higher player base than ever before, making the transition into OW2 F2P format a good move, that has been blundered every step of the way.
6V6 > 5V5
remove double shield. 1 main tank (shield tanks) with one off tank only and the game is saved.
@@eagerinspirit and make the shield unbreakable and 300% of damage it takes is reflected back to the hero that caused it to the shield and any other enemy hero within 300 yards
@@veryrare4093L take
@@undyingentropy6736 wtf 😭
@@eagerinspirit thats not even necessary because rein is just useless so he wont be good anyway, sigma is already just insanely op so he would be broken again but rams shield is not even nearly as bad as orisas shield used to be
In 5v5 If you off angle as tank, your team gets rushed. So unless you’re running full dive with your team, both tanks will end up facing off at the front like it’s a line of scrimmage in football. And because there’s no second tank to either: peel, off-angle, or supplement the frontline, one of four things will happen. 1 You get rolled. 2 You roll them. 3 It’s a mirror match stalemate. Or 4, the tanks go on a counterswap bonanza. In non-mirror matchups the easiest way for a tank to have greater impact is to switch to a hero that can exploit the weaknesses of the other tank.
this is the best point ive seen in this comment section. i miss off angling as zarya or up on a roof as dva while winston is brawling. u do that now and ur healers get vaporized
I swear Season 9 did some actual brainwashing to everyone who isn’t a tank player. The tank problems are still here, and are perhaps even more prevalent because of the dps passive.
People use to see this easily, but say that now and you’ll get “Skill issue,” “Just play better lol,” “Probably a hog player💀” It’s like Season 9 came around and everyone suddenly forgot all the dirty laundry in the closet exists.
Not quite, DPS suffered from the same problems Tanks did prior to Season 9. Now that they have been fixed and its just a Tank problem, no one gives a shit because fuck the tanks!
@@ryanw2744 not to the same extent. Tank players ALWAYS got the short end of the stick since season 1. They get nothing. Even the next QP hacked they are just test dummies for "ways to make the tank DC quick" and get nothing to compensate. You could play DPS in season 8, just not as easily as you can now.
Watch KarQs video from like 3 days ago where Blizzard invited him and other steamers on an all paid retreat. Of course they all love 5v5. Its so gross.
I remember a while ago when flats says we don't get no money for liking overwatch. A couple of months later they get flown out to LA and get to talk/stream/record exclusive vids with developers and get to post it first. Sure they don't get any incentive 😂. I like most of the content creators to just don't lie about it.
They're paid to have bad opinions and spew it to the masses
Yep. It's not even shilling for the devs/game. It's ok to like something. But these big streamers are just being fake. They lie all the time to their audience tricking them into playing this shitty game because they get paid to do so.
What bootlicking sell outs
It's the classic "you're on the inside now, welcome. We will treat you well and enjoy this partnership not because we want our game to be better, but because we need the marketing and community goodwill, and this is the most convenient shortcut we can imagine".
6 vs 6 was better for every role. I have to play only meta characters instead of my favorites.
Yup. Absolutely blows my mind
Yeah as a former Off-Tank player (mainly D.Va) I either have to play solo tank (Which I was sick of doing in open queue) or play a role I'm not as good at. It sucks you can't play your favs because 5v5 doesn't let you play the way you want/need too.
thats why I got like 1k hours on quickplay just to play my favorite hero roadhog
Why 6v6 wont work: zarya and orisa duo
The game needs 6v6 and the game NEEDS support to be the weakest role. That’s how this game was designed and it’s the only way it functions correctly. You CANNOT have supports being self sufficient while also getting peel from every single person on the team. It creates the unkillable, eternal fight metas we’ve seen since moth meta.
Fully agree. I hate that supports are the best 1v1ers
I play support and don't mind being the weakest when it comes to damage, but if it comes to that, you garbage/selfish dps/tanks players better peel
@@MetalSam25They never do so fuck ‘em.
@@MetalSam25they never do outside of stacked play. That’s the reason we got characters like Moira, Brig, and Bap and they hate them because they are self sufficient.
@@tgs5725dawg even as mauga i almost die to solo moiras, landing every single bullet and cardiac is nothing compared to her orb
The Amount of Brainrot 2x Shield has caused in the OW Community has to be studied.
The Meta, that was only ever really played in Masters and above, the meta that even though it was dogshit actually needed Coordination between the Orisa and Sigma and that needed the right supports (Good luck in 2x Shield with a lucio lol) apparently was played by every Silver player.
I sometimes look at these Comments and think "Thank god these guys dont balance the game" you have people calling Orisa/Reinhardt with a Mercy 2x Shield and i just cant take it anymore.
They also act like every 1 out of 3 Games was 2x Shield, but when I look at the most played Heroes in OW1 2021 in Bronze - Plat it was Rein/Winston/Hog/Dva, Orisa and Sigma were not played in low elos.
People in lower elos play whats fun, not whats hard meta.
Its insane how people just listen to Pros or Streamers and blindly follow what they say.
If we go back to 6v6 and 2x Shield is not played, maybe this notion of 2x Shield being everywhere and ruining the fun of everyone might finally go away.
People really did become obsessed with the concept of dbl shield killing OW1, but personally I rarely saw it...and when you did it wasn't played correctly anyways (plat/diamond lobbies), which is probably why it was a relatively rare sight.
If anything my experience with OW1 was much the same as OW2; damage heavy supports and DPS that love playing respawn simulator. Some things change, but most things stayed the same 🤣
-> People always seem to point to right when Sigma was released (which is when 2-2-2 came out mid-august 2019). At end of OW1, Orisa + Sigma was no where near as dominate, and fights ended in a more reasonable amount of time. Sustain being too high when Sigma was released was simply a balance issue.
-> People seem to forget that the CC stacking and the severely imbalanced hero roster are why DPS queues were the longest by quite a margin. We got ZERO new Tank or Support heroes after 2-2-2 released. The only new hero we got was Echo, our 17th DPS hero. 8 Tanks, 17 DPS, 7 Supports. What's sad is that the CC stacking and imbalanced hero roster both got addressed pretty well in OW2, but the devs just had to screw it up by going to 5v5.
@@michaelc7418 They had like 10 reasons why OW1 had long Qs and really thought "Less people play tank, go 5v5"
Its delusional
Bro honestly I would queue with my friend from school and I've literally only seen 2x shield a hand full of times. People in gold and Plat don't give a fluff usually not even in coms. Bring back 6v6 and normal hit boxes Jesus
bro, the whole reason mercy got a rework is BECAUSE of shitty whiners - who were mostly pros and streamers - complaining about a small percentage of BAD mercy players or whining about how they sucked at killing mercy first in a team fight cause they sucked, and went "BLIZZAAARRRRDDDD!!! i can't kill the fairy and they hide and rez!!!! my mercy wont heal me cause they want to get a mass rez for potg!!!!!!" and the devs went "awwwwww poor sweet babies! mercy isn't supposed to be played like that, so we will change her!" and then the 90% of mercy players who played her normally were like WTF??
so yeah of course a bunch of loud mouth shitters are going to bitch about double shield, cause in their minds, they thought that was the problem because they're too dumb to realize it wasn't. then because theyre all talking about it so much they just think it happened way more than it actually did. "double shield" acts like a buzzword now and it makes me angry.
You either have 2 scenarios with one tank.
1. One tank is so oppressive and over buffed that it is the only viable tank.
2. All tanks are fairly evenly balanced so the optimal play is counter swapping the minor areas where one tank counters the other.
We have option 1 when Mauga is buffed tomorrow
I don't even personally think that push is better than 2cp. Can't be convinced 6v6 is worse
I’d take Hanamura 6v6 back any day
2cp was great, idk why tf people always complain. Who deadass thinks hananura is worse than circuit?
@@lukasg4807 2cp was bad it created massive problems either the attackers stream rolled or the defenders stalled out games with wave after wave of respawns, push on the other hand is just awful it feels like 2cp but somehow its even more of a stall feast or snowball; Maybe if it was 6v6 it might work but I doubt it. It takes a special kind of hell to make 2cp look great in comparison.
Hanamura was the only 2cp map I would want back, but I also would love to get rid of push and especially colosseo. I like flashpoints tho
Looking forward to more off the rails solutions instead of admitting their OW"2" idea was bad. We are at the point again where turning OW1 F2P back in 2019 would've been the best move alongside constant content drops. There was still some of that 2016 Overwatch momentum back then.
It's not that OW2 was a bad idea, it's that they abandoned what made it OW2, which had nothing to do with 5v5 or PvP at all. Their decision to scrap the PvE content and piecemeal it to us in its unfinished state is a joke, and they should have just gone back to 6v6 as soon as they knew they were scrapping OW2 (which was before it launched, making them guilty of straight up fraud). Now the only game mode that has any sense of balance is role lock, because tanks are too beefy to have more than one on a team, which makes open queue disgusting to play.
How are you this delusional? 6v6 was unsustainable
@MrGrreatness unsustainable how? It is the most equal format with each role spreading power between 2 players. What is unsustainable is putting an entire 2 person role on 1 person with balance that needs to reflect that.
@@Noobish_Camper55 Because there has never been and will never be as many tank players as there are DPS/Support players which will make queue times long and no one wants to wait 5+ minutes for a game just to have a bad match. At least if queue times are quick and a match isn't great you're quickly onto the next one
@MrGrreatness problem with 5v5 is every match is terrible. Plus, when the game is fun to play the queues were not bad. 2018 overwatch had 2 minute queues when they released some of the best patches.
Fuck it, 7v7. Solves the queue times issue
Holy 5Head
Nah Activision Blizzard would never give us 2 tanks back, they'll just scrap tanks & have 3 dps & 2 supports instead of giving us another tank back.
before OW1, they tested team sizes, and they found 7v7 too many players, while 5v5 wasn't enough players. 6v6 was what felt good and right to everyone.
@@Star_Rattler by the way, TF 2 has 12v12 and people clusterfuck that happens in there. No weird limitations, if you wanna go French Revolution - you can do it.
I'm so down bad that I had a fucking dream of playing on hanamura back in 2021. I'm a gold/plat shitter so I didn't experience any double shield. Just rein zarya Hanzo mercy, shit like that. Even typing this out makes me relive so many memories. Ow1/6v6, whatever you call it, had soul. I could go into lfg and play with a team of randoms actually trying to win. I could talk to some completely random ass people in the global chat. I could comment on potgs at the end of the game. I was able to see my and everyone else's ranks. And the gameplay was simply better. Ow2 has no soul. It's a boring game wherever you look. It is literally like call of duty. Went from the goated beloved fps to a shitty game with disbanding lobbies. Same in ow.
Also an argument I've heard from pro 5v5 people is that even though the tanks are beefy as fuck in ow2 and often were unkillable (before season 9) it feels nicer to shoot the hero rather than a shield. And to that I present a counterargument: in ow1 you had 2 tanks to shoot at, and if one of them had a shield you could just shoot the other one. And on heroes with splash damage you could hit both. And I agree that it is more interactive and more satisfying to hit people rather than shields, but by going to 5v5 we only lost in that department.
Good Comment.
And btw. i love that you specified that as Gold/Plat player nobody played 2x Shield, let me guess most games you saw Rein/Winston/Dva/Hog/Zarya maybe Ball? But how often did you actually see a Sigma or an Orisa? It literally happened every 10 games if not more.
I myself played in GM/T500 and even there people were bored by playing 2x Shield so often we played some other stupid shit. And even if 2x Shield was played, i could atleast try Rein/Zarya or Dive and maybe make it work.
But in OW2 if i get hard countered i just have to swap, it wont be fun and it wont be a "Challenge" it will just be torture. I basically quit tank 5 seasons ago so i cant really say but i know it hasnt gotten better.
Its true the game we once loved had depth, had teamplay, had more synergies and was overall more pleasant to play. From the HUD, the Icons, the PotG theme, the end game lobbies, account levels, etc.
Everything in OW1 felt like it belonged in the game, it gave the game a special feeling. OW2 is a "okay" enough game but is a fucking joke in comparison to OW1, its way to basic and wont ever live up to the potential of OW1.
@@heiko2255double shield quite literally wasn't a thing below diamond. It requires people to play on certain positions and for them to properly rotate cooldowns. And most importantly, play boring ass heroes. Sigma was kinda an exception but just because he was overpowered so you felt strong aka kinda fun. But try convincing your other tank to go orisa. It's fucking impossible. Or your supports to go bap (a boring DPS hero), zen (very squishy and hard to hit shots with for a metal rank player), or BRIG, who was literally a throw pick and everyone would scream for you to swap because nobody knows how the hero works. No lies I didn't know inspire exists and thought brig only heals with her health packs for a year and a half of playing the game. Like how would you know? Because nobody even played her down where I was so I couldn't see the effect.
And what was played is rein/zarya of course, most of the time both due to the gentleman's agreement and people only being able to play those heroes 😂, on Gibraltar sometimes Winston, dva quite often, and DPS players playing hog. Ball was a throw pick, orisa was a 😴💤 pick, sigma was just op and picked more often than the previous two.
And the biggest counter swapping you could do was to go reaper/torb/bastion but then they just pick dva/sigma and they are good. Other than that I could legit play anything. It was fun as fuck. I miss it wholeheartedly 😢
Man i cant express how much worse ow2 is as a whole game
that's a bad argument for 5v5 since when you shoot at the enemy tank they don't take damage which is like when they had shields, but here's the thing: you could shoot the shields and when they were down you had a decent chance of killing the stuff behind the shields.
now, it's:
immortal orisa version 3.4, getting double pocketed while flankers kill your whole team behind you because you are on the front line.
or
reinhardt holds up his shield for about 1.3 seconds before it vaporizes and then reinhardt also vaporizes. then his team vaporizes.
I hate the arguement that "shooting shields all game is way worse" when shields weren't even what made double shield broken and 99% of the time if you're spending the game sat back shooting shields you were just cosmetic
genuinely asking: is calling someone cosmetic an insult meaning "you are doing nothing for the team and are just there to be seen" type of thing? what a unique insult! if that's what you mean by it, i agree.
there are dps that are shield breakers, too. anyone whining about double shield were people who didn't want to swap to something they didn't main. you could go: junk, bastion, sym... even pharah or a mc-right-click-cass!
Every time I think of 6v6 I always think rein junkerqueen would have been an awesome combo
Remember when we memed that the game in Overwatch 3 would be 4v4?
Turns out we were technically right.
i come back to to play overwatch 2 here and there but its never gonna be the same like 6 v6 for me
5v5 and adding Hamster Grappler cooldown was the biggest mistakes
The worst part is that it’s not just the tank swaps that suck sometimes you can just play better into your counter but then the 2 dps decide to counter-swap and it’s 10x worse
Me when I want to play winston, but the enemy team says no (they're playing hog bastion torb)
a player like flats should have come to this conclusion a year ago....
Tank Ults felt *_WAY_* more impactful in OW1 as well, depsite having two tanks in every match.
Because they were. Some of them was nerfed outright, others just got counter by new support cd's (suzu) and by the fact that every single new support got an movement/escape ability.
Flux does nothing nowadays. Every time I pop primal, I take at least 700 damage. It's crazy.
The mirror tank is the only “fair” fight.
Tank is the only role that can and will be counter swapped by the whole team and its still effective.
You convinced me. I want 6v6 back.
I even think the queue time arguement isn't a fair argument. OW1 had premium entry price point, OW2 is FTP. You could argue if 6v6 was in a FTP model the queue times would be fine, as more people would pick the title up as it was free.
Let’s go back to the game of the year OW and not the most negative reviewed game on steam OW
Crazy part is that people will watch this and unironically defend 5v5 until they die and try gaslighting tank players that it’s “rose tinted glasses”. I’d would much rather be playing tank at the end of ow 1 then now
I love the queue time argument, no one wanted to play tanks - 5v5, thats what fixed it, not switching to f2p, what are you going to do when no one wants to play tank in 5v5 then, because I personally don't want to anymore
New tank passive: Tanks keep 100% of their ult when swapping
ACCELERATE
I went back and watched some old tournament footage and literally saw one team run triple dps dive vs another team running triple tank and the match was still a good one. Granted teams hadn't yet min-maxed every aspect of the game like they have today but it was really cool to see two completely different approaches be viable at the highest level. Not to mention there was still plenty of 2-2-2 back then as well.
It was also really refreshing seeing the amount of fights that weren't decided by the first kill. But with 5v5, it feels like having a player die first is a death sentence for the rest of the team like 90% of the time.
I’m a casual player, I don’t do a ton with ranked or whatnot but even so, tank is still miserable. I used to do about 60% tank 45% support and occasionally that 5% dps. Now the only time I’ll play tank is with my friends who don’t play much so I get paired with players who don’t know enough to counter swap yet.
It’s just miserable, and it’s heartbreaking for me. The majority of the reason I used to enjoy this game was because of how much I loved playing Sigma.
Out of all the time I've played overwatch since 2016 2017 I actually never got tilted at the game and genuinely enjoyed it but as a tank doom otp since the launch of ow2 and early last season of ow1 I can say since this current season 9 patch I find myself getting super agitated playing tank this season because of how rampant the counter swapping is. Had a game yesterday where the enemy tank started as Winston and we won 1st fight and the enemy changed to orisa sombra zen ana mcree and was completely shut down from doing anything. We actually had numerous fights where I died to sombra because she would look at me and wait for me to jump in and hack me the instant I begin leap and only hacked me that game as long as I was alive same with ana never using sleep dart at all too. Being an otp isn't a viable thing on tank anymore at all I have to adhere to the counter swap meta now and I'll try it today and see how well I do. I'll update this after today to tell my progress.
I went back to before Overwatch 2 came out and there was a video of Flats watching the Alpha games that pro players and game analysts had and he saw the issues with 5v5 just by watching. I think when it comes to tank we ignored the flaws for the first 2 seasons because tank was actually strong and impactful and fun
I want 6v6 so I can enjoy playing doom without ripping my hair out, but at the same time its nice not having to fight someone else for my hero
Thank you for not dropping this Samito! This is definitely putting pressure on them even if they won't admit it. This is so ridiculous & it's even happening in my Elo (Gold/Plat). I've been having fun lately, but Tank Counterwatch is definitely the elephant in the room still. I completely agree that if they just made Tank fun people would queue for it more. I LOVED Tank in OW1, but you'll rarely catch me play it outside of Mystery Heroes. I still am convinced they could have fixed 6v6, but it feels like they just gave up! I feel like they could've taken all the shields out of the game, except for maybe Rein & Winston. Frankly I think Sig would be way cooler without a shield he already has damage reduction with Suck. Maybe give him a gravity based CC ability or a small movement/wormhole teleportation ability.
I hope more videos like this come out & they're forced to reconsider adding 6v6. But your voice, now Flats helps so much. I'm hoping that it's only a matter of time before Devs start to see it too.
They said before that the issue was no one wanted to que tank. Feel like its going to happen again here too.
No it won’t. Why do people say that? Ow1 had 8 tanks and damage had 17, no wonder people were playing more damage. Tanks were very limited. If ow1 had doom, queen, mauga, or ram then way more people would’ve played tank back then.
@@ziggy2metalx720 I do and dont agree with you. There would be more people on tank back in Ow1 My current issue with tank in Ow2 is it just not being very fun of a role to be in. Que times will probably never be bad for tanks but the worse off a role is the lses people que it. Its like when people were going to support in mass because it was the better role. How often do you find someone eager to be tank?
@@aerostrafe1075I enjoy Mauga Ram a lot but found tanking boring in ow1 outside of dva, they have been better about making fun tank heros, especially for ppl like me that prefer dps
@@mckookie2967 yeah OW1 needed more off tanks and main tanks while not letting double main tanks happen. Would of been fun to see.
@@aerostrafe1075 is they only allowed one main tank & one off tank it would still play 10 times better than 5v5
Dont let them get away with the q time argument
That is why lots of people missing the tank duo, especially the comedic Flats-Emongg.
I remember a old interview with Jeff Kaplan about why the game was 6v6 & not 5v5 or 7v7, his response was 7v7 was too many players it felt too much & 5v5 didn't feel great to play either because the maps were too big & one of the roles always suffered because of it (not word for word but that's the gist of it). If they knew this why change it?
Counter swapping is a HUGE part of 5v5 tank gameplay, for better or for worse (usually worse). But it isn’t a priority for the community or the devs because tank players make up such a small part of the player base at large. Tank players just have to put up with this reality so the rest of the game’s players can have fun. It doesn’t have to be this way, though! But there’s no incentive for anyone to address this, so it won’t change.
The Incentive is that many Tank players slowly will quit (me for example or many of the Pros and Streamers) and then the Qtimes will get unreasonably large for every other Role
Put OW2 in OW1s Shoes, no new Content for 3 years, a patch every 4 Months, no new Events, etc.
The Game would drop players faster than anything thats ever existed, Qtimes would be even worse than in OW1 2022.
Because the Core Experience isnt good for everyone, the game wont function correctly and will eventually have to deal with longer Qtimes again, i dont know if its in S11, S14 or maybe even S18, but eventually, people will get sick of it and stop Qing Tank, especially now since there wont be a new tank for like a year.
With 6v6 i would play Tank again and many others would too.
I dont understand how freedo can say this is freedom. You literally being forced to now to what you want. Its the opposite.
And having the Sombra hacking you all the time during this game is just the cherry on top.
I watch my tanks when I’m playing, some are either struggling atm because they were hard boosted by the ranked system and now that tank is in an even worse spot progressively as each season goes by and the ranked system got changed, they’re now getting destroyed.
Good tanks on the other hand will still try their hardest but struggle because they have to constantly counter swap or can’t make an impact as one tank because they need to be there for their 4 squishies constantly
It’s more a counter swap meta unless the map heavily favours a certain pick
I realised this the moment that said ow2 was 5v5. Only this would of not been a problem os if they reworked EVERY HERO... all of em.
Samito speaks the truth, the counter-swapping is out of control. And this is why I haven't touched OW2 in ages, 5v5 with 1 tank just doesn't make sense to me. I miss Jeff Kaplan, he is probably still on PTSD meds poor guy, but now that Bobby is gone, Metzen is kinda back, maybe there's light at the end of a very long tunnel. I want Jeff back.
this reminds me of a season one OWL game with surefour and i think kragiee swapping back and forth on dps, it was widow then pharah then tracer then ashe i believe, it was such a standout moment that the casters started focusing on the people swapping instead of the people playing
People always talk about que times but never remember that the tanks they released in ow1 were boring. No one wanted to play orisa or sig constantly.
Now with new FUN TANKS like doom, JQ, ram or even new orisa people will que as tank. You can't complain that que times were bad when the game was abandoned and tanks got boring new heroes like orisa and were constantly CC/stun locked in ow1 and blame it on the 6v6 format.
There are REASONS why people didn't que tank. Fix those issues and people will que tank!
This.
There are like atleast 6+ Factors that played into Qs being bad, off the top of my head i can think of
- Abandoning the game for 3 years
- A balance patch only released every 3 - 4 Months
- Left the game on a dogshit meta (2x Shield) without meaningful changes to it
- OW1 DLC Tanks werent appealing to the average player (Sigma and OW1 Orisa dont have really exciting Gameplay) so someone playing since 2016 basically had the same tanks in their roster for 5 years
- Game still cost 20-40$ 5 Years after release instead of going F2P like the competition
- No new Events were released
- CC got out of Hand and would have needed to be reduced drastically (like they did for OW2....)
Theres plenty of reasons the games Qs increased, acting like "2x Shield made 6v6 horrible" is the only one is crazy
This is exactly my experience lately.
6v6 just feels more engaging, like back then you have to communicate with your team because it was always comp vs comp instead of killing tank vs killing tank
I hate the fact that I have to learn all these tanks to a competent level while my dps and support can f around all game on Gengi and Moira then blame me for our loss.
Samito please dont stop making these pro 6v6 videos. I believe that if the game continues its streak of failure in 5v5 and you keep speaking out against it the community will come together and make a big movement for 6v6
5v5 can be fixed by hero bans or removing hero swaps lol
I stopped playing Overwatch a year ago now. I'm nostalgic about playing Rein/Zarya with my friend. The release of OW2 was such a tragic experience and the worst part was I wasn't really that surprised.
I have a LOT to say on this subject but I will just add this one point- if tank synergies were such an issue especially when one team had a good synergy and the other had none, consider this: In OW1 you had to get 2 tanks not only playing the right heroes (1) but playing them coordinated to access the power of the duo (2) AND the other team had to pick heroes that did not function together (3). There are 3 variables that have to go against you for it to be this worst case scenario experience. In OW2, you can have an equally bad (and I’d argue worse) experience if your tank is countered by the enemy. Just one variable. This makes the issue come up far more often, even if your tank is playing well.
I can’t help myself so here’s another point- swapping heroes in OW1 was “oh I can use this tool to do X to their comp” or “I need to switch to a hero that fits my team better” but now it’s “how do I prevent their tank from impacting the game.” It’s much different and much worse.
I'm just tired of people trying to force me to accept that the game can't be as good as it has been before. Accepting that we can only go downwards. Accepting that the balance and dev team will never actually attempt to truly make the game as enjoyable as it used to be.
Because if they actually wanted to do that, no bias and no exec involvement, they would at least have TRIED 6v6 with the OW2 hero reworks as a point of reference. At the very least that.
But nah lets add two shitty game modes of Flashpoint and Push instead, lets add fucking LIFEWEAVER that joke of a hero. Lets add fucking more immortality and no-skill bail abilities. Lets make more supports that are just undercover dps heroes. Lets fucking remove an entire player from the tank role why the fuck not. Lets dumb down the game even though skill progression was never a reason why any mass of the playerbase left/complained. Lets just forever fight the symptoms instead of actually treating the wound that has been dug deeper and deeper since 2019.
5 years and these people just can't see straight.
I wonder when's gonna be the next time Aaron comes out to make a speech about how they should have listened to us, how they're sorry, how they fucked up and will do better. He did it once, and I'm sure he personally meant it. But at the end it's nothing but empty words, masking a team that loves to talk the talk but can't fucking walk the walk cus they're all crippled and somehow still have egos too after all their failures.
Weird how changing the core of a game ie 6v6 to 5v5 would be terrible.
either give back 6v6 or hero bans and selection screen for the entire match. those are the only solutions
I'm not sure if I'm just not thinking it through thoroughly enough but I really do like the idea some people have proposed of having a dedicated Off-tank role and having characters like Zarya, Dva, Queen etc.., this way you can retain the double tank synergies while having the control of excluding stuff like double shield by keeping shield heroes out of the Off-tank position. Again, I don't know if there are major issues that would arise with this proposition but I feel like it's at least better than 5v5 or the old 6v6 system.
Are there actually people who aren’t known streamers who think 5v5 is better
It mostly boils down to the people yelling "I dont like 2x Shield" even though nobody played it in their Elos lol
Im not trying to be mean, just saying that people who were gold in OW1 didnt play against Orisa/Sigma like ever.
Other than that i often see people prefering 6v6, i mean someone went around with a poll at Blizzcon:
5v5 had 280 Votes
6v6 had 490 Votes
And Blizzcon is the broader playerbase, not usually only the sweatty players, its only a small sample size but it tells us a lot.
6v6 was just better
@@heiko2255I mean tbh double shield was played even in qp so it is understandable but i would rather have double shield than whatever this mess is
@@wonderofu1603 By who lol and i dont mean like "Reinhardt + Orisa" 2x Shield
I mean Sigma/Orisa (+ maybe Bap/Brig) because that was true 2x Shield which made the Top500 bored
Pain
17:55 I prefer it this way because it’s all in my hands instead of depending on a teammate that doesn’t play a hero that we need.
I remember some time at the beginning of Overwatch 1 they literally said "We have found 6v6 is the optimal team amount" and then said the exact same thing for 5v5 when it came out.
SO THIS IS HOW AI
Things I didn't like in Overwatch 2, in my opinion as a silver-gold player:
5v5
Doomfist rework
Hog rework nerfing the ability for a one-shot hook combo
Adding a cooldown to Hamster Grappler
Removing McCree's flashbang
Nerfing Lucio's boop against tanks
Push mode
Removing 2CP mode
I agree with u, the thing that’s so funny tho is that these r almost all the changes in ow 2 😭😭😭 they should’ve just kept updating ow1
fr
@@bagelbummm2
I totally agree with you. I will never get why they had to change the format to 5v5, especially since it only affected the last picked role because of the shield meta; it was mostly a balancing issue.
Fully agree that que times was why they did 5v5 ftl. That spawn chicken is CRAZY
I think if the pro owl pkayers do this on live tournaments, then they might pay attention
I have to imagine if we went back to 6v6 with no balance changes, the game would still be more fun than it is now. There might be some broken tank combo that dominates high level play, but one balance patch could address that in a matter of days and we could all have fun on tank again.
It's never going to be balanced. They need to stop balancing the game for competitive at this point, period. Or have custom limitations for Comp, seperate from other modes. They will buff healing or DPS when they can't kill 2 Tanks cause now people are splitting damage and the tanks are sponging while DPS is free. They always try too rebalanace with changes, and then they have to balance for the changes or new characters. And then adding new characters all the time just compiles onto the issue.
I hate the queue time argument. You realize that if tanking doesn't improve, the queue times will become just as bad as they were before.
Swap limits creates a whole new game of chicken seeing which tank picks 1st and loses the swap game, or gets kicked for inactivity.
Remembering the Zarya/Rein combo brings a tear to my eye.
I'm actually excited at the prospect of getting a Zarya bubble as Rein
One of the things that i've thought about tank swapping. Somehow make you to want to not to swap to not lose that ult. So make tank ult so good you really want to hold it. That would be one thing to try out before going back to 6v6
lets opt for the open queue role queue variant.
still 5v5 but with the option for 2 tanks 2 dps 2 support
I've always wondered why overwatch doesn’t have offensive and defensive champ pools? and balance the game and heros around that.
I swear one of the things making counterswapping so good is the steady devaluing of the ult. It used to be a big argument against swapping your hero was losing your ult charge. That isn't a concern anymore and it's one more thing that makes swapping easier. Over the years we got constant ult charge decreases, the mechanic of retaining ult charge when swapping, multiple abilities that outright deny ults with ease, lamp, suzu being the two biggest offenders, and imo the kicker, tank ults have either gone down in power or been outright neglected. When was the last time you had a tank stay on Orisa because Terra Surge was gonna win the next fight. Never? Yeah. How about when Earthshatter had it's stun duration nerfed to let Rein barely get 2 swings in if you were RIGHT on top of the entire enemy team. Or how about Meteor Strike which has been tweaked so much it's now a weird CD reset/health regen. D.Va bomb is a glorified re-mech with extra steps. Grav is largely negated by lamp and suzu, and entirely countered by petal platform.
Not saying looking at the ways ults function for tanks would fix the counterswapping issue entirely, there's no way it's that simple, but it's definitely a piece I've noticed over the years that built this problem.
The obvious solution for the devs is to allow us to only be able to swap a max 3 times in a match. Additional swaps included in the pass 🙏
People forget that OverWatch arrived at the 6v6 format after several iterations of the game. The game had been brought into equilibrium. It wasn't out of a vacuum.
I dont even think counterpicking is super hard to address, just fix the "i ignore you' interactions, like beam type weapons ignoring defenses like deflect.
They dont enrich gameplay. If theyre a point if balance then were just admitting a match is imbalanced without them.
I do think tank synergies are stronger than support. 2 tanks can negate all damage. Two supports can keep each other up, at the cost of leaving their team to dry. Thats totally fair.
Softballing ideas to aid in counterpicking:
-Javelin needs a cast time.
-Spinny spear shouldnt pass through shields
- Unpowered punch shouldnt stun
- why do we still have tank busters?
- Sigma and dva can suck beam type weapons (sounds dumb, but would relieve counterpicking which should probably never have existed)
I think the dps passive would actually be REALLY cool in 6v6, it would let DPS have the outplay ability that they wanted, but would also increase the dependency on the tanks game sense.
In this case it would probably bring out more team play, and further set apart each role. Give supports more buff/debuff to account for the team needing more help.
DPS having the passive to give less healing to anyone allows two tanks to be kill able. And allows your tanks to take space.
Tanks would be able to contest space easier together, while (obviously moving health pools back down) being easier to kill and harder to “directly” counter
If the devs were to bring back 6v6 (which they should) instead of having two tank roles they could implement a primary tank role (a tank that has a shield ability) and a secondary tank role (a tank that doesn't have a shield ability). Basically would look something like this:
Primary Tanks: Ramattra, Reinhardt, Sigma, Winston, and Zarya.
Secondary Tanks: Dva, Doomfist, Junker Queen, Mauga, Orisa, Roadhog, Wrecking Ball.
With some tweaking in stats/cooldowns this would eliminate double shields and counter swapping. Counter swapping would still be there but not at these levels to where one of the more important roles gets stun locked. The devs are showing that they are trying to shake up the game for the better, I think this route would be better than what the players have now. Plus groups of friends can play together again because another role slot would become available again. It's a win win for the devs and the player base. Devs need to swallow their pride and admit 5v5 was the wrong way to go.