Those thin wires to each cell are also fuses. If an individual cell shorts, the wire opens and everything keeps working, but with a little lower capacity. Tesla has the best thermal management by far. The BMW is ridiculous, as it only heats / cools on the thin bottom side of the battery cell's "can". Early on, Tesla found that the key to deep cycling (a.k.a. usable charge) and the capacity decrease due to charge / discharge cycles (a.k.a. life) is dependent on the thermal management of each and every cell. The other guys, like Nissan and BMW, are still clueless about this. If interested, BMW has a TH-cam video of how they manufacture the cells. Sandy is correct about the costs of making a cell, i.e. Tesla is least expensive, but not necessarily about the assembly of the battery pack. Tesla's design is almost fully automated, the other guys, not so much.
There is multiple errors in what you say or what you mean on batteries and cells, Sandy Munro: 0:30 - That's three out of four *battery modules*, not battery packs nor batteries. 1:10 - There is not 4416 of these cells in each of these four "bars" (modules), but there is 4416 cells in the whole battery pack in total, so 4416 cells in all 4 modules combined. 4416 * 3,6V * 5 Ah = 79.488 Wh. The rest is ok: 46 cells in each brick: 1s46p, with the cells in each brick wired in parallel. And then the bricks are wired in series: 96s46p. 3:00 "Of course the main ingredient is still Lithium ion, but that part is the main product, but the rest of it is Nickel, Cobalt, Aluminium." That is a totally misleading statement. The main ingredients by weight are graphite and copper from the anode, nickel and some aluminium from the cathode and electrolyte solution. Lithium is in fact a relatively small percentage of the overall material. About 70-150 g lithium per kWh. While a kWh weighs about 460 kg / 80 kWh, which is about 5,75 kg per kWh. See this for reference for a NCA cell: cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28 Percentages by weight (multiplied out for the active cathod material): 22% graphite (from anode) 17% copper (from anode) 15,2% *nickel* (from active cathode material) 15% electrolyte solution 10,4% oxygen (from active cathode material) 8% aluminium (from cathode side (inactive material)) 4% carbon black and binder 3% separator plastics 2,8% *cobalt* (from active cathode material) 2,2% *lithium* (from active cathode material) 0,4% *aluminium* (from active cathode material) 4:10 - that glue is likely *non*-conductive, instead of "conductive glue". Instead what you mean is "thermally conductive" instead of "electrically conductive". 6:16 - The cells are in parallel, so you do not lose voltage when cell fuses break. But you lose amperehours in a brick. 6:51 - That is not small wires "that break", they are cell fuses specifically engineered with a certain diameter designed to break in case a certain current is exceeded. 3:22 - These are nickel metal hydrid (NiMH) D-size cells from an early Ford Hybrid. Inspired from early Toyota and Honda hybrids.
If anyone is interested I think on of their earlier videos does a better job of describing how the M3 battery works. th-cam.com/video/64_iBKLSnGA/w-d-xo.html
I was about to correct some statements made after watching the video since I worked on both M3 and Bolt cell/pack. Thank you for posting the detailed comments. Of course some like the number of cells were all just casual errors made during the simplification of the video. My main cripe was the % of chemical constituents in each cell.
Yep! Additionally all the batteries in a brick are all parallel. So they collectively act as 3.7 V and give a higher capacity per brick. If you lose one or two it doesn't drop the voltage because the potential difference hasn't changed, only the Amp Hours available from that brick has diminished slightly. (assuming the cells are essentially uniform voltage to begin with)
@@FailTrainS Funny that Mr Munro confused voltage with ampere/ hours, any schoolboy/ girl would know the difference!That is not very assuring regarding his expertise . LOL
Munro Live, as part of the Junior Electrical Engineer status, I would like to thank you for the work you are doing in sharing knowledge of the news technology in the market how they operate, their working principle, etc... Thank you for your great mission, we appreciate you, and love you Munro.
Hey Munro and the guy behind the camera, excellent work there! Thanks for all the effort to bring great information in a great package! On the package side the sporadic static you are capturing with his mic is the cell phone beaconing or receiving data from the tower. Keep up the great work! Thanks again!
Tipped the cashier at the supermarket this weekend and thanked her for coming to work. She was in shock and super grateful and it felt good to do so. Great idea sandy!
The origin of Milf lol... Now seriously. Anyone knows if it's bad to wear a mask for a long period of time for your longs. 5 minutes ok but two hours or more of lack of oxygen must be bad. *lungs
@@ralanham76 and if his wife is pregnant from Sandy a Good Gift would be the Baby suit from Munro Shop. Obviously paid by you because of your Comment...🤣🤣🤣
5:30 Sorry. Sandy is actually wrong on this. In fact, the order might be flipped. Pouch cells might cost more to manufacture on an individual basis than cylindrical cells; however, those pouch cells are actually cheaper on a basis of energy capacities. Cylindrical cells are cheaper to produce on a per unit basis, but they require more materials per unit of stored energy. Pouch cell battery packs are also, by far, the most energy dense construction. While cylindrical cells make the packaging appear cheaper and more energy dense overall, they are a package within a package (the cylindrical cell walls serve the same purpose as the packaging used in prismatic cell and pouch cell battery packs). This is easy to demonstrate in real life as the 2020 Chevrolet Bolt EV's 66 kWh battery pack weighs in at 947 lbs, while the Tesla Model 3's 74.5 kWh battery pack weighs in at 1,054 lbs. That's 153 Wh/kg and 155 Wh/kg respectively, so either GM's cells are far more energy dense or Tesla's packaging isn't any better in terms of energy density.
You don't lose volts if a few cells fail and their "fuse" wire melts, you lose the capacity of those cells that failed in the parallel segment of that brick. You would only lose volts if the segment became disconnected from the rest of the brick, in which case I presume that brick would return zero volts because the segments are in series.
If you lose cells within a brick, that brick would not deliver its full voltage as I understand it. Each brick delivers the voltage of each functioning cell times the number of cells within that brick. The capacity is then determined by b the number of bricks. I presume, because admittedly I do not know, that if a cell dies, battery m management somehow make adjustments of some kind to keep things balanced.
You don't just lose the capacity in that one brick, you lose it overall. Once the brick with the least capacity is exhausted you MUST stop discharging the battery pack. Continuing to discharge the battery will force current 'backwards' through the exhausted brick, which will start a fire.
@@Paul-pj5qu What you said would only be true if all the cells in the brick where in series, but they are not, they are paralleled in segments and then those segments are in series to make the brick, so loss of cells in segments causes no voltage loss, but that segment with cells in parallel would drain faster thus lose voltage faster than the other battery segments, which I'm presuming the BMS can compensate for. I might have screwed up calling them segments and bricks, in my head, Segments, Bricks, Packs.
Would be interesting to see how the blue glue reacts to heat. Maybe a piece of it could be pealed of and heated up with either a hot gun or direct contact with a flame.
Or even better - cut a small part with a few cells out of the brick, build a small mock case around it, similar as possible to the original battery case, and heat it up until thermal runaway (of course in an controlled environment)
The white part is glue. He didn't explain it, but the blue part is typically referred to as gap filler. It's thermally conductive so it helps dissipate the heat to the battery housing and keeps all parts of the battery at the same temperature
I have pondered the rational for the Tesla battery config. ( I own a model S). Why so many little batteries? I think one important reason is the failure mode of a single cell. When ever you have cells in parallel a single cell short failure will be powered by the remaining cells until something vaporizes. A small Tesla cell provides a modest amount of current maybe only a few amps. So a small fuse will deliver the cells normal current and still fail with modest affect. A large prismatic cell that might deliver 200 amps or more must have large fuse that will fail spectacularly. The loss of a large cell will also profoundly diminish pack capacity. I wonder how many Tesla packs have a few blown fuses that go undetected. The Tesla battery is like a stack of fire crackers while the prismatic is like a stack of dynamite. It would be interesting see a failure analysis of all the various battery types. I watch all of your videos. Great stuff !!!
I would really appreciate if you could talk a little more about the battery cooling on the Tesla compared to the other common styles. Also if you could touch on battery charging and how Tesla is able to cram in 250kw during charging while many other manufacturers are still under 100kw.
The cell voltage is irrelevant when considering the effect of removing one in a string of 43 cells in parallel. It's the capacity of each cell that matters. Since there are so many in parallel, removing one has little effect on the capacity of that brick. The BMS will balance out the effect of small differences in brick capacity.
No. They are are top balanced. But the bank with the lowest Ah are the earliest "empty". There is no active high power balancing in the Model 3. Theoretically this would be possible.
No one use liquid electrolyte anymore in this kind of cells. Now it is a gelatinous polymer, hence the name li-poly. Usually they call li-poly the pouch cells and li-ion the cyclindrical ones, but truth is that they are all li-poly.
@@GiovanniEsposito5 We suspected that it is no longer a liquid, would you happen to know whether it is applied before winding or still injected afterwards like the liquid electrolyte?
@CleanTechnica Check this out for all the battery & cell knowledge , The author was at Tesla as a manager : www.prba.org/wp-content/uploads/Exponent_Report_for_NFPA_-_20111.pdf
@@cleantechnica Usually they are filled after winding and the electrolyte is than diffused in a vacuum chamber, than the cells are sealed. Not 100% sure, but probably Tesla does exactly the same.
Lots of Model 3 batteries and battery modules along with those for other electric cars are available on Ebay. Chevy Volt battery segments are a good deal in 24V or 48V segments. Since they are significantly de-rated and well managed in the car they suffer less degradation than most.
@@markplott4820 : You're right, the Polestar 2 is not a real Volvo. It is, however, a real Polestar. Geely owns Volvo and Polestar now, whether you like it or not, and if you genuinely believe Chinese products are cheap crap, that says more about your ignorance and prejudices than it does about the actual state of Chinese products in the year 2020.
@@markplott4820 hun.... china makes quality stuff. If your perception of Chinese build quality is "cheap Chinese crap" then *you're* the one buying cheap Chinese crap. Its hilarious to think that the most populated country would have NO idea what quality is. The Polestar 2 is absolutely going to a be a quality car. Look at the all the resigns from 2015-now with Volvo. They re-invigorated their entire product lineup after Ford got out and Geely got in. Not to mention: the Polestar 2 isn't even available so unless you're part of Volvo/Polestar, I'm not really sure how you could possibly be making those claims.
Hi there , I enjoyed your informative videos. Do you think a moducould be configured differently to put out 200v instead of the 100v? I'm talking about cutting collector straps in certain places. Is that possible in your opinion?
Looking at all that plastic surrounding the Tesla battery makes me wonder about recyclability? Re-use as home battery is fine, but ultimately these things have to be recycled effectively. Thoughts?
Hi i couldn't understand if in between cooling pipes running throughout battery brick. It will short circuit the battery like you said 90 cells block let say 21700 cell 3.7v-4.5Ah 90P = 3.7v-405Ah cell. when it will be connected with another cell in series + - The coolant strip will short circuit because its of Aluminium. Kindly elaborate how cooling does't short circuit the battery. Although 1 brick is connected with coolant pipe. Waiting
Do Teslas have coolant filters. Seems like it would be a good idea since the battery coolant channels are so small. Another use for mineral oil is a preservative for wood kitchen chopping blocks - it doesn't go rancid.
Funny how he didn’t describe how the difference of losing cells in Tesla pack vs losing cells in the Samsung or LG pack style to show how the prismatic cells loss makes a much more noticeable difference in the battery’s overall performance
Any plans to sell individual cells? These would make a great desk or coffee table talking piece. I'm definitely interested in a couple if so. Is there a way to keep them from corroding?
Thermal management for those pouch and prismatic cells *can't* be as efficient as for Tesla's pack. In particular, the cooling can't get as close to where chemistry is happening in cells. Doesn't that have implications for battery longevity/cycle life? I sure would like to see what Porsche did with the Taycan battery pack. News reports suggest they've improved cooling for sustained high-speed operation - but did they? Or did they just tweak the software limits to tolerate more heat, with possible consequences for battery longevity/cycle life? Sandy could find out if Munro & Associates got a Taycan to tear down. I also look forward to seeing Munro & Associates tear down whatever new-fangled pack Tesla will hopefully announce later this month at Battery Investors' Day. Next year, maybe?
Very good job.. What I wonder is ‘is the battery pack protected good enough from the ground under the car?’, I think I would mind it a lot in the future while buying a EV.
It looks like the individual Tesla cells are very difficult to remove. Does Sandy know how these battery pack may get recycled in the future or if it is even possible to recycle the materials with the way it was constructed? As I know Tesla has said it can be used as a power wall or a secondary battery for other uses. But how time intensive would the process be to extract and reuse the lithium?
Kind of wish Sandy mentioned how LG cools their pouch batteries. I'd also like to know what benefit the pouch has over cylindrical, because I believe there has been a few rumors going around that Tesla might be going to a pouch design. I assume its a maximum utilization of space, but maybe there is something else to it.
I'm sure Jack Rickard would love to get his mitts on those battery packs. How about the most ambitious crossover event since Infinity War, Sandy and Jack spending a couple of hours yelling at young whippersnappers to get off their respective lawns?
The pouch would be better from thermal stand point. They would have better cooling systems in place. For example in Chevy Volt there are cooling passages between each pouch. In case of cylindrical cells with cooling passages on one side of the cells its difficult to remove heat from the cell center. So far cylindrical are working perfectly. But I think as size of battery (kWhr) increase so would the cooling requirements.
A question to the Munro team. How does the internal resistance of a Tesla cylindrical cell compare to a pouch or prismatic cell? The Ri of the consumer cylindrical and pouch cells I have at home differ significantly, by a factor of 4 or more. I am curious if this is also true for automotive cells.
What are the prospects of getting battery replacements for older EVs with these cell formats? Will it ever be economically feasible for the old compliance cars like a Spark EV?
We talked about this at the request of some viewers, but unfortunately it's just not feasible given the hazardous nature of the batteries. Thanks for tuning in!
@@louicoleman2910 - Smartphones and small devices have low voltage LION batteries, usually just one sealed Pouch cell. a Single 18650 or 21700 battery is too Dangerous to ship , even when Discharged. when I Flew to Japan last year 2019, they REFUSED to let me fly with my Shortwave Radio , which had a Rechargable 18650 cell. so, I gave it to a NON- flying family member. and I was allowed to FLY. the USPS also Does NOT allow High Density battery to be shipped, when I bought my Shortwave, it had to be Shipped by e-Packet and Delivered by DHL.
At 1:45 I'm not sure that the brick connects all 46 cells in parallel. It looks like you have a row of 3 or 4 cells in parallel, but then the rows are connected serially inside the brick. It looks like a mixture of serial and parallel to me inside the brick.
I would like to see you do a video on the Toyota battery both their lithium and Nickle metal hydride. Toyota has been making Hybrids for about 25 years and make a whole lot more cars then the rest. Toyota uses the lithium battery only in their cheapest model.
What method is the safest overall and in a situation of a fire what system better controls that fire so people in the cars can get out or be rescued in time after a crash?
Could you make pouch or packets mixed as the first Tesla battery with the case and it would be lighter with battery outer case layered like the Tesla but could you electolight or I mean gold plate aluminum on one side or is there a way to take packets put them in long wide packs like lazonya with way to cool between electolights between packets to cool with cool liquid layors less material and you could seal packet layors or in between put salindrical cells to use as connecting connectors right ?
@@handris99 Wrong, it's the chemistry.. To quote Elon Musk “Our cells should be called Nickel-Graphite, because primarily the cathode is nickel and the anode side is graphite with silicon oxide… [there’s] a little bit of lithium in there, but it’s like the salt on the salad,”
I think 3m played a major role in the creation of the Tesla battery product. There was a *no I was not retired* 3m engineer interviewed from Nova Scotia talked about the experience anyways.
How can the cylinder type battery packs be more space efficient than the pouch style ones? I'd assume that cylinder type packs lose a lot of space between the cells?
He's talking about thermal efficiency. With the small cells you have several cooling ducts going directly through the battery pack, each cooling just a small volume. With the huge brick you only have cooling ducts on the outside that must collect heat from the entire brick volume. So there is less cooling and more travel inside the battery for the heat to get out. The problem is not the shape, it's the volume of the minimal unit. And this limits both the charging speed and the max deliverable power.
I was wondering about that too. I thought they wanted to use them in powerwalls. I could see it get automated though. A robot could drain the cells to a level ideal for storage and handling (which can be done before disassembly), then cut away or remove the external stuff. You could probably cut off the metal straps so that you now just have the battery terminals exposed on both sides and then all that is left is the glue. You would want something that supports all the individual batteries from the ends so that they don't come into contact with each other or other metal components, and then you could dip the pack into a solvent bath to get rid of the glue. Then the cells can all be removed. With a proper rig/etc it probably could be very efficient and I inside this would be done at a large scale. The batteries can then be separated, tested, etc individually.
@@bradleycross5987 wasn't this the main point of the powerwall product? I thought it was intended as a way to get value out of batteries that were too worn out for use in cars, but the fact that Teslas are still new means there aren't many used batteries available for them.
What about recyclability? I have a feeling that’s going to be a big deal a few years when more and more of these things are showing up in junk yards. That looks like it would be miserable for the Tesla. I know they last a really long period of time, but precious metals are hard to come by. Would some sort of chemical bath dissolve all that glue?
Maybe they can make a battery with the connectors on the side instead of the top. Also, maybe they can make the batteries a little squary, so they connect automatically with their sides.
The mineral oil is not electrically conductive (dielectric) - so it would not cause short circuits/electrical hazard if cooling is damaged and oil is spilled.
At the moment, most of the components are being scrutinized and analyzed by our team of remote engineers to put together our full reports. These will include costing of all components, commonality comparisons to the M3, an FFQ (Fit-Finish-Quality) audit, and much more. Here's a link if you're interested! munrolive.com/support-%2F-store/ols/products/tesla-model-y-full-report Thanks for tuning in!
And here I thought that a prismatic battery cell was just an anode, a cathode and a liquid in the can consisting of both the electrolyte and lithium ions... I was mistaken. But then, why go prismatic instead of pouch? I fail to see the cost saving in going prismatic there -- other parameters (heat management, etc) notwithstanding.
Although it seems silly to have thousands of cells, the cylindrical batteries have an advantage in that the metal round casing stop expansion of the cell with temperature due to normal use- discharge/recharge. With each cells being small, their thermal mass can be "easily" regulated thru cooling/heating. Prismatic and pouch cells don't have metal walls so they need to be "boxed" up to confined their expansion. Each cell being bigger carries a bigger thermal mass and is a bit harder to thermal regulate. Btw "bugger" is a naughty word in the UK. It means a person performing @n@l $€x on someone.
what factor determine the cylindrical cell dimensions beside heat dissipation ? what's preventing them from making a battery cell the size of a beer keg ? assuming there is sufficient plumbing to manage heat properly
From what I've read, there are advantages and disadvantages to each battery type. No one type is better than the other, IE, doing 2170 isn't exactly the "best" solution, and that includes size as well.
“Lubricant and a laxative” I’m glad Sandy has a humor side too
david wong It’s a whipped topping AND a floor polish!
Don`t let Trump know about this, lolol
@@Derpy1969
70's flashback!
david wong very dry; almost British. Gave me a big smile.
@@francoischarbonneau9447 😂
Those thin wires to each cell are also fuses. If an individual cell shorts, the wire opens and everything keeps working, but with a little lower capacity. Tesla has the best thermal management by far. The BMW is ridiculous, as it only heats / cools on the thin bottom side of the battery cell's "can". Early on, Tesla found that the key to deep cycling (a.k.a. usable charge) and the capacity decrease due to charge / discharge cycles (a.k.a. life) is dependent on the thermal management of each and every cell. The other guys, like Nissan and BMW, are still clueless about this. If interested, BMW has a TH-cam video of how they manufacture the cells. Sandy is correct about the costs of making a cell, i.e. Tesla is least expensive, but not necessarily about the assembly of the battery pack. Tesla's design is almost fully automated, the other guys, not so much.
There is multiple errors in what you say or what you mean on batteries and cells, Sandy Munro:
0:30 - That's three out of four *battery modules*, not battery packs nor batteries.
1:10 - There is not 4416 of these cells in each of these four "bars" (modules), but there is 4416 cells in the whole battery pack in total, so 4416 cells in all 4 modules combined.
4416 * 3,6V * 5 Ah = 79.488 Wh.
The rest is ok: 46 cells in each brick: 1s46p, with the cells in each brick wired in parallel. And then the bricks are wired in series: 96s46p.
3:00 "Of course the main ingredient is still Lithium ion, but that part is the main product, but the rest of it is Nickel, Cobalt, Aluminium."
That is a totally misleading statement. The main ingredients by weight are graphite and copper from the anode, nickel and some aluminium from the cathode and electrolyte solution. Lithium is in fact a relatively small percentage of the overall material. About 70-150 g lithium per kWh. While a kWh weighs about 460 kg / 80 kWh, which is about 5,75 kg per kWh.
See this for reference for a NCA cell:
cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28
Percentages by weight (multiplied out for the active cathod material):
22% graphite (from anode)
17% copper (from anode)
15,2% *nickel* (from active cathode material)
15% electrolyte solution
10,4% oxygen (from active cathode material)
8% aluminium (from cathode side (inactive material))
4% carbon black and binder
3% separator plastics
2,8% *cobalt* (from active cathode material)
2,2% *lithium* (from active cathode material)
0,4% *aluminium* (from active cathode material)
4:10 - that glue is likely *non*-conductive, instead of "conductive glue". Instead what you mean is "thermally conductive" instead of "electrically conductive".
6:16 - The cells are in parallel, so you do not lose voltage when cell fuses break. But you lose amperehours in a brick.
6:51 - That is not small wires "that break", they are cell fuses specifically engineered with a certain diameter designed to break in case a certain current is exceeded.
3:22 - These are nickel metal hydrid (NiMH) D-size cells from an early Ford Hybrid. Inspired from early Toyota and Honda hybrids.
If anyone is interested I think on of their earlier videos does a better job of describing how the M3 battery works. th-cam.com/video/64_iBKLSnGA/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for all the addtl info/ corrections
you are battery God! please make videos about! please!
Someone's doing expert level homework! Thank you very much for your sterling comment.
I was about to correct some statements made after watching the video since I worked on both M3 and Bolt cell/pack. Thank you for posting the detailed comments. Of course some like the number of cells were all just casual errors made during the simplification of the video. My main cripe was the % of chemical constituents in each cell.
The "tiny connectors" act as fuses and prevent internal short of a cell to kill the entire brick
Yep! Additionally all the batteries in a brick are all parallel. So they collectively act as 3.7 V and give a higher capacity per brick. If you lose one or two it doesn't drop the voltage because the potential difference hasn't changed, only the Amp Hours available from that brick has diminished slightly. (assuming the cells are essentially uniform voltage to begin with)
@@FailTrainS Funny that Mr Munro confused voltage with ampere/ hours, any schoolboy/ girl would know the difference!That is not very assuring regarding his expertise . LOL
@@planpitz4190 everyone makes mistakes from time to time ;)
@@planpitz4190 It's easy to right something down on paper correctly, but easy to mess up when you're trying to talk about it live. :)
Hope your quarantine ends soon Sandy,
may the force be with you. 😉
I really appreciate you doing these, Sandy. It's something I genuinely look forward to in the mornings. Thanks!
Thanks for making us part of your morning routine, Colin!
Munro Live, as part of the Junior Electrical Engineer status, I would like to thank you for the work you are doing in sharing knowledge of the news technology in the market how they operate, their working principle, etc...
Thank you for your great mission, we appreciate you, and love you Munro.
"Lubricant and a laxative" ... good all Sandy, informative and educational. we learn new things every day watching these videos
Hey Munro and the guy behind the camera, excellent work there! Thanks for all the effort to bring great information in a great package!
On the package side the sporadic static you are capturing with his mic is the cell phone beaconing or receiving data from the tower.
Keep up the great work! Thanks again!
Thanks for the kind words, Enrique!
Tipped the cashier at the supermarket this weekend and thanked her for coming to work. She was in shock and super grateful and it felt good to do so. Great idea sandy!
Thanks for your generosity and thanks for tuning in, Jon!
Munro: ...your favorite mother
Me: ...wait a minute
Well maybe you can choose your mom, your wife, mother inlaw, or your ex-wife... You know he's an old guy 😂 ...
The origin of Milf lol...
Now seriously. Anyone knows if it's bad to wear a mask for a long period of time for your longs. 5 minutes ok but two hours or more of lack of oxygen must be bad. *lungs
@@ralanham76 and if his wife is pregnant from Sandy a Good Gift would be the Baby suit from Munro Shop. Obviously paid by you because of your Comment...🤣🤣🤣
I love that mineral oil has both mechanical engineering, food service/science, and medical applications
make an office chair from one of the seats. will buy for sure!!
Facts
Model 3 seats are pretty low, you would need a booster to make an Office chair.
Mark Plott that is where the “make” comes in to play
We actually talked about doing this! Glad to know there is some interest - we'll see what we can come up with. Thanks for tuning in!
@@MunroLive can you make a bed from the back bench? I'd love to bang my girl in my bedroom and simulate banging her in the back of my Model Y
5:30 Sorry. Sandy is actually wrong on this. In fact, the order might be flipped. Pouch cells might cost more to manufacture on an individual basis than cylindrical cells; however, those pouch cells are actually cheaper on a basis of energy capacities. Cylindrical cells are cheaper to produce on a per unit basis, but they require more materials per unit of stored energy.
Pouch cell battery packs are also, by far, the most energy dense construction. While cylindrical cells make the packaging appear cheaper and more energy dense overall, they are a package within a package (the cylindrical cell walls serve the same purpose as the packaging used in prismatic cell and pouch cell battery packs).
This is easy to demonstrate in real life as the 2020 Chevrolet Bolt EV's 66 kWh battery pack weighs in at 947 lbs, while the Tesla Model 3's 74.5 kWh battery pack weighs in at 1,054 lbs. That's 153 Wh/kg and 155 Wh/kg respectively, so either GM's cells are far more energy dense or Tesla's packaging isn't any better in terms of energy density.
You don't lose volts if a few cells fail and their "fuse" wire melts, you lose the capacity of those cells that failed in the parallel segment of that brick. You would only lose volts if the segment became disconnected from the rest of the brick, in which case I presume that brick would return zero volts because the segments are in series.
correct!
If you lose cells within a brick, that brick would not deliver its full voltage as I understand it. Each brick delivers the voltage of each functioning cell times the number of cells within that brick. The capacity is then determined by b the number of bricks. I presume, because admittedly I do not know, that if a cell dies, battery m management somehow make adjustments of some kind to keep things balanced.
You don't just lose the capacity in that one brick, you lose it overall. Once the brick with the least capacity is exhausted you MUST stop discharging the battery pack. Continuing to discharge the battery will force current 'backwards' through the exhausted brick, which will start a fire.
True, but loosing one cell will change the discharge of the entire brick so it will loose voltage faster than the other complete bricks.
@@Paul-pj5qu What you said would only be true if all the cells in the brick where in series, but they are not, they are paralleled in segments and then those segments are in series to make the brick, so loss of cells in segments causes no voltage loss, but that segment with cells in parallel would drain faster thus lose voltage faster than the other battery segments, which I'm presuming the BMS can compensate for.
I might have screwed up calling them segments and bricks, in my head, Segments, Bricks, Packs.
Would be interesting to see how the blue glue reacts to heat. Maybe a piece of it could be pealed of and heated up with either a hot gun or direct contact with a flame.
Or even better - cut a small part with a few cells out of the brick, build a small mock case around it, similar as possible to the original battery case, and heat it up until thermal runaway (of course in an controlled environment)
The white part is glue. He didn't explain it, but the blue part is typically referred to as gap filler. It's thermally conductive so it helps dissipate the heat to the battery housing and keeps all parts of the battery at the same temperature
I have pondered the rational for the Tesla battery config. ( I own a model S). Why so many little batteries? I think one important reason is the failure mode of a single cell. When ever you have cells in parallel a single cell short failure will be powered by the remaining cells until something vaporizes. A small Tesla cell provides a modest amount of current maybe only a few amps. So a small fuse will deliver the cells normal current and still fail with modest affect. A large prismatic cell that might deliver 200 amps or more must have large fuse that will fail spectacularly. The loss of a large cell will also profoundly diminish pack capacity. I wonder how many Tesla packs have a few blown fuses that go undetected. The Tesla battery is like a stack of fire crackers while the prismatic is like a stack of dynamite. It would be interesting see a failure analysis of all the various battery types.
I watch all of your videos. Great stuff !!!
Hey mom look what I got you :) 4400 batteries! Thanks for the video. I’ve learned tons
I would really appreciate if you could talk a little more about the battery cooling on the Tesla compared to the other common styles. Also if you could touch on battery charging and how Tesla is able to cram in 250kw during charging while many other manufacturers are still under 100kw.
Sandy, love the videos. Thank you for the great work!
The cell voltage is irrelevant when considering the effect of removing one in a string of 43 cells in parallel. It's the capacity of each cell that matters. Since there are so many in parallel, removing one has little effect on the capacity of that brick. The BMS will balance out the effect of small differences in brick capacity.
No. They are are top balanced. But the bank with the lowest Ah are the earliest "empty". There is no active high power balancing in the Model 3.
Theoretically this would be possible.
So glad Sandy is making these Tesla videos. He needs more subscribers
I’ve been tipping the cashiers and they have been astonished and grateful.
Awesome, Todd, thanks for your generosity and thanks for tuning in!
Love your presentations. So detailed and understandable.
Didn't know about the oil, huh? Nice. Great overview!
Stay safe sir, thank you for this wonderful service. Awesome video, got a subscriber.
The most interesting video so far on Monro Live.
0097-150-50-786-24
Everyone’s mom is an OEM
That's one way to look at it! Thanks for tuning in!
Lol
You’re a class act, Sandy.
Wow this is engineering overload. Very cool stuff.
Could you confirm whether the cells have liquid electrolyte that pours out when you open them or is it viscous?
No one use liquid electrolyte anymore in this kind of cells. Now it is a gelatinous polymer, hence the name li-poly. Usually they call li-poly the pouch cells and li-ion the cyclindrical ones, but truth is that they are all li-poly.
@@GiovanniEsposito5 We suspected that it is no longer a liquid, would you happen to know whether it is applied before winding or still injected afterwards like the liquid electrolyte?
CleanTechnica you should buy their book when it comes out
@CleanTechnica Check this out for all the battery & cell knowledge , The author was at Tesla as a manager : www.prba.org/wp-content/uploads/Exponent_Report_for_NFPA_-_20111.pdf
@@cleantechnica Usually they are filled after winding and the electrolyte is than diffused in a vacuum chamber, than the cells are sealed. Not 100% sure, but probably Tesla does exactly the same.
Battery day going to be game changer !
Your going to have million sub if you keep this up thanks for the hard work
Lots of Model 3 batteries and battery modules along with those for other electric cars are available on Ebay. Chevy Volt battery segments are a good deal in 24V or 48V segments. Since they are significantly de-rated and well managed in the car they suffer less degradation than most.
The video really helped me to understand Teslas design of batteries. Thanks!!
Love the pin on your coat!
Any chance you'll be taking apart a Polestar 2? I'm curious what Volvo/Geely are up to
+
why ? Polestar is cheap Chinese crap. its not even a REAL Volvo.
@@markplott4820 : You're right, the Polestar 2 is not a real Volvo. It is, however, a real Polestar. Geely owns Volvo and Polestar now, whether you like it or not, and if you genuinely believe Chinese products are cheap crap, that says more about your ignorance and prejudices than it does about the actual state of Chinese products in the year 2020.
@@markplott4820 hun.... china makes quality stuff.
If your perception of Chinese build quality is "cheap Chinese crap" then *you're* the one buying cheap Chinese crap. Its hilarious to think that the most populated country would have NO idea what quality is. The Polestar 2 is absolutely going to a be a quality car. Look at the all the resigns from 2015-now with Volvo. They re-invigorated their entire product lineup after Ford got out and Geely got in.
Not to mention: the Polestar 2 isn't even available so unless you're part of Volvo/Polestar, I'm not really sure how you could possibly be making those claims.
FINALLY the most interesting (and most painful) part to watch, the battery pack!!!
Hi there , I enjoyed your informative videos. Do you think a moducould be configured differently to put out 200v instead of the 100v? I'm talking about cutting collector straps in certain places. Is that possible in your opinion?
Maybe next episode Sandy will show us how that Mineral Oil works to relieve constipation :)
LOL
Uh.......no thanks
Ryan - the Sandy Rubdown show...………...LOL.
he said lubricant so maybe he can lube you up and stick it in your butt? i can tell you would enjoy that from Munro
@@Rhyme905 grow up dude
As always, fascinating.
Nice video. Would be nice though to share the recyclability of these batteries and waste-fullness of them compared to lead acid.
Thank you!
Looking at all that plastic surrounding the Tesla battery makes me wonder about recyclability? Re-use as home battery is fine, but ultimately these things have to be recycled effectively. Thoughts?
Hi i couldn't understand if in between cooling pipes running throughout battery brick. It will short circuit the battery like you said 90 cells block let say 21700 cell 3.7v-4.5Ah 90P = 3.7v-405Ah cell. when it will be connected with another cell in series + - The coolant strip will short circuit because its of Aluminium.
Kindly elaborate how cooling does't short circuit the battery. Although 1 brick is connected with coolant pipe. Waiting
Thank you so much sir for sharing such important details of Tesla model y
Love and respect from India
how much range does an Electric Camel have ?
Do Teslas have coolant filters. Seems like it would be a good idea since the battery coolant channels are so small. Another use for mineral oil is a preservative for wood kitchen chopping blocks - it doesn't go rancid.
Funny how he didn’t describe how the difference of losing cells in Tesla pack vs losing cells in the Samsung or LG pack style to show how the prismatic cells loss makes a much more noticeable difference in the battery’s overall performance
Any plans to sell individual cells? These would make a great desk or coffee table talking piece. I'm definitely interested in a couple if so. Is there a way to keep them from corroding?
Thermal management for those pouch and prismatic cells *can't* be as efficient as for Tesla's pack. In particular, the cooling can't get as close to where chemistry is happening in cells. Doesn't that have implications for battery longevity/cycle life?
I sure would like to see what Porsche did with the Taycan battery pack. News reports suggest they've improved cooling for sustained high-speed operation - but did they? Or did they just tweak the software limits to tolerate more heat, with possible consequences for battery longevity/cycle life? Sandy could find out if Munro & Associates got a Taycan to tear down.
I also look forward to seeing Munro & Associates tear down whatever new-fangled pack Tesla will hopefully announce later this month at Battery Investors' Day. Next year, maybe?
What is the gray panel on the bottom ? Is it Mica sheets?
looks like a mouse had found a giant cheese and bitten a bit of that battery pack ...
Collective knowledge of the comments here is out of this world
Very good job.. What I wonder is ‘is the battery pack protected good enough from the ground under the car?’, I think I would mind it a lot in the future while buying a EV.
Those tables look awesome.
It looks like the individual Tesla cells are very difficult to remove.
Does Sandy know how these battery pack may get recycled in the future or if it is even possible to recycle the materials with the way it was constructed?
As I know Tesla has said it can be used as a power wall or a secondary battery for other uses. But how time intensive would the process be to extract and reuse the lithium?
MiTch Mahood the glue has a desolving agent which will desolve the glue
Kind of wish Sandy mentioned how LG cools their pouch batteries. I'd also like to know what benefit the pouch has over cylindrical, because I believe there has been a few rumors going around that Tesla might be going to a pouch design. I assume its a maximum utilization of space, but maybe there is something else to it.
Would have been nice to see a Leaf battery to show that form factor which is what of hobbyists are using for their own electric conversions.
Don't forget the liquid cooled Chevy volt cells :)
I'm sure Jack Rickard would love to get his mitts on those battery packs.
How about the most ambitious crossover event since Infinity War, Sandy and Jack spending a couple of hours yelling at young whippersnappers to get off their respective lawns?
The pouch would be better from thermal stand point. They would have better cooling systems in place. For example in Chevy Volt there are cooling passages between each pouch.
In case of cylindrical cells with cooling passages on one side of the cells its difficult to remove heat from the cell center. So far cylindrical are working perfectly. But I think as size of battery (kWhr) increase so would the cooling requirements.
A question to the Munro team. How does the internal resistance of a Tesla cylindrical cell compare to a pouch or prismatic cell?
The Ri of the consumer cylindrical and pouch cells I have at home differ significantly, by a factor of 4 or more.
I am curious if this is also true for automotive cells.
What are the prospects of getting battery replacements for older EVs with these cell formats? Will it ever be economically feasible for the old compliance cars like a Spark EV?
Can we buy the discharged cells please Sandy?
Yep. With Sandy's signature.
USPS will NOT ship LION batteries, NOT Even Discharged ones.
Mark Plott they ship smartphones, right? They have Li-ion batteries in them.
We talked about this at the request of some viewers, but unfortunately it's just not feasible given the hazardous nature of the batteries. Thanks for tuning in!
@@louicoleman2910 - Smartphones and small devices have low voltage LION batteries, usually just one sealed Pouch cell.
a Single 18650 or 21700 battery is too Dangerous to ship , even when Discharged.
when I Flew to Japan last year 2019, they REFUSED to let me fly with my Shortwave Radio , which had a Rechargable 18650 cell. so, I gave it to a NON- flying family member. and I was allowed to FLY.
the USPS also Does NOT allow High Density battery to be shipped, when I bought my Shortwave, it had to be Shipped by e-Packet and Delivered by DHL.
Table for the mother-in-law not a great idea.
But that high voltage battery 🤔
Graham Brown haha.
Perfect gift for Mother-in-Law, a Tesla battery, a wooden chair, leather staps and a Skull cap, FREE knife switch included.
At 1:45 I'm not sure that the brick connects all 46 cells in parallel. It looks like you have a row of 3 or 4 cells in parallel, but then the rows are connected serially inside the brick. It looks like a mixture of serial and parallel to me inside the brick.
Watching this in July 2021. Kia's and now Bolts being recalled for LG pouch battery fires.
I would like to see you do a video on the Toyota battery both their lithium and Nickle metal hydride. Toyota has been making Hybrids for about 25 years and make a whole lot more cars then the rest. Toyota uses the lithium battery only in their cheapest model.
Toyota using old ni-mn 6.5ah cells in cheapest trims, and li-ion in plug ins or top of the line hybrids.
How about recycling those packs? A lot of work to unpack them?
What method is the safest overall and in a situation of a fire what system better controls that fire so people in the cars can get out or be rescued in time after a crash?
Mom wants a SANDY MUNRO T-SHIRT and so do I! 👍🙂
Well feel free to send her on over to our store! teespring.com/stores/munro-live-store Thanks for tuning in!
1:58 'For Cereal' ? - My favorite lately is Honey Comb.. But if Tesla makes cereal I'll definitely try it :)
serial
Could you make pouch or packets mixed as the first Tesla battery with the case and it would be lighter with battery outer case layered like the Tesla but could you electolight or I mean gold plate aluminum on one side or is there a way to take packets put them in long wide packs like lazonya with way to cool between electolights between packets to cool with cool liquid layors less material and you could seal packet layors or in between put salindrical cells to use as connecting connectors right ?
So is the Chevy Bolt LG battery like the battery in your cell phone ???
Love the humor!
MaryAnn you just keep on practicing the keyboard 🎹👍😎
Hello, maybe you can sell solo Batterie cells? Would love to have one.
Nice
I’ll keep a spare bottle of mineral oil in my Tesla. For Taco Tuesday and well you know the batteries.
RJ Evans I find that I need the opposite effect after taco Tuesday.
I'm all Lubed up and nowhere to go.
Correction @ 3:00. Lithium Ion is NOT the main ingredient.
It is the main ingredient. Just very little of it is used in terms of weight % compared to the anode cathode an other materials.
@@handris99 Wrong, it's the chemistry.. To quote Elon Musk “Our cells should be called Nickel-Graphite, because primarily the cathode is nickel and the anode side is graphite with silicon oxide… [there’s] a little bit of lithium in there, but it’s like the salt on the salad,”
I think 3m played a major role in the creation of the Tesla battery product. There was a *no I was not retired* 3m engineer interviewed from Nova Scotia talked about the experience anyways.
Can you provide a link?
How can the cylinder type battery packs be more space efficient than the pouch style ones? I'd assume that cylinder type packs lose a lot of space between the cells?
He's talking about thermal efficiency. With the small cells you have several cooling ducts going directly through the battery pack, each cooling just a small volume. With the huge brick you only have cooling ducts on the outside that must collect heat from the entire brick volume. So there is less cooling and more travel inside the battery for the heat to get out. The problem is not the shape, it's the volume of the minimal unit. And this limits both the charging speed and the max deliverable power.
Sandy, I noticed there’s a blue Model Y in your shop.
Are you using that to test drive the vehicle?
the BLUE one is for Drive Testing, the RED was for Teardown.
Yep, we'll be performing dynamic tests on the blue one, in addition to a full Fit, Finish, and Quality (FFQ) audit. Thanks for tuning in!
How will battery bricks be recycled if they are glued together?
I was wondering about that too. I thought they wanted to use them in powerwalls.
I could see it get automated though. A robot could drain the cells to a level ideal for storage and handling (which can be done before disassembly), then cut away or remove the external stuff. You could probably cut off the metal straps so that you now just have the battery terminals exposed on both sides and then all that is left is the glue. You would want something that supports all the individual batteries from the ends so that they don't come into contact with each other or other metal components, and then you could dip the pack into a solvent bath to get rid of the glue. Then the cells can all be removed.
With a proper rig/etc it probably could be very efficient and I inside this would be done at a large scale. The batteries can then be separated, tested, etc individually.
Recycling BEV batteries at scale is likely not cost effective, hence you have not heard too much about it. Great in theory but tricky in practice.
@@bradleycross5987 wasn't this the main point of the powerwall product? I thought it was intended as a way to get value out of batteries that were too worn out for use in cars, but the fact that Teslas are still new means there aren't many used batteries available for them.
@@RichFreeman The powerwall is reuse, not recycling.
@@AntsAasma how do they reuse batteries without removing them from the packs?
What about recyclability? I have a feeling that’s going to be a big deal a few years when more and more of these things are showing up in junk yards. That looks like it would be miserable for the Tesla. I know they last a really long period of time, but precious metals are hard to come by. Would some sort of chemical bath dissolve all that glue?
"Lubricant and a laxative" kinda sounds like "Floor wax and a desert topping." For those of you who remember the original SNL.
Maybe they can make a battery with the connectors on the side instead of the top. Also, maybe they can make the batteries a little squary, so they connect automatically with their sides.
Cheers!
The mineral oil is not electrically conductive (dielectric) - so it would not cause short circuits/electrical hazard if cooling is damaged and oil is spilled.
What happens to the disassembled car and components?
At the moment, most of the components are being scrutinized and analyzed by our team of remote engineers to put together our full reports. These will include costing of all components, commonality comparisons to the M3, an FFQ (Fit-Finish-Quality) audit, and much more. Here's a link if you're interested! munrolive.com/support-%2F-store/ols/products/tesla-model-y-full-report Thanks for tuning in!
And here I thought that a prismatic battery cell was just an anode, a cathode and a liquid in the can consisting of both the electrolyte and lithium ions... I was mistaken.
But then, why go prismatic instead of pouch? I fail to see the cost saving in going prismatic there -- other parameters (heat management, etc) notwithstanding.
Although it seems silly to have thousands of cells, the cylindrical batteries have an advantage in that the metal round casing stop expansion of the cell with temperature due to normal use- discharge/recharge. With each cells being small, their thermal mass can be "easily" regulated thru cooling/heating.
Prismatic and pouch cells don't have metal walls so they need to be "boxed" up to confined their expansion. Each cell being bigger carries a bigger thermal mass and is a bit harder to thermal regulate.
Btw "bugger" is a naughty word in the UK. It means a person performing @n@l $€x on someone.
Kind of jumped over the cooling, having begun.
what factor determine the cylindrical cell dimensions beside heat dissipation ? what's preventing them from making a battery cell the size of a beer keg ? assuming there is sufficient plumbing to manage heat properly
TH-cam channel "The Limiting Factor" covers Tesla batteries in detail.
How are you going to cool the center of a beer keg sized battery?
why is it that you get better density with cylindrical cells? isn't there a lot of wasted space between the round cells?
Better cooling with round cells, more surface area.
Do they have temperature sensors in the modules? It would be logical but nobody is mentioning it. It would be interesting to see where they are.
Yes, there are multiple temperature sensors embedded in each of the four modules, and these are monitored by the BMS. Thanks for tuning in!
@@MunroLive Thank You for Your reply. Are they using ultra thin thermistors bonded to the battery cell can on the side without cooling plate?
From what I've read, there are advantages and disadvantages to each battery type. No one type is better than the other, IE, doing 2170 isn't exactly the "best" solution, and that includes size as well.
HE CLEARLY SAID IT WAS CHEAPER.
Would be interested in buying an aluminum collector plate!
Glad you’ve hitting close to 10 mins
Is that a third Model Y stripped to metal in the background?
Close, but nope, that's the Model 3 we tore down in 2018. Thanks for tuning in!
9:15 and that's why EV west is useful. They have nearly everything you might need to build your own electric car.
EV west also has Drop in Kits for your Vintage VW, Porsche and most RWD cars.
FWD is harder to do , because of the Transmission.