Love this video. I went through this with my 4.2m boat back at the start of the year. I custom build a 280ah lithium. Victron DC-DC charger 30amp model but bought an 18amp model because the ETEC only outputs 25amp for charging, current DCDC drains too much for the etec to keep up. *face palm* Got the solar controller to add as well. Will be a great setup when finished. Going to keep the 30amp DCDC to charge the battteries when towing with the car. So not all has gone to waste.
Thanks mate. So are you saying that having the larger Victron was a problem? ie. It's not good to have the DC-DC charger exceed the maximum the alternator can supply? I'm hoping that the opposite isn't a problem as the 24V model has a maximum of 17amps which is below what my alternator can produce. Apparently the solution is to add more units in parallel but I'm hoping I can get away with a single unit for a while without frying it.
@@DangarMarine I am changing my setup without actually testing it properly. I am worried about the ETEC EMM being the weak link. I tested my theory with a victron 240v AC charger that has a 25amp output. And watching it on the app I could see it swinging from full 25amp output when the dc-dc was charging the house lithium until the voltage dropped below the cutoff for the dc-dc, then the current dropping quickly as the starting battery voltage bounced up and then the current shooting back up as the dc-dc turned back on. I felt this dance of fluctuations in voltage and current would cause my ETEC to kill itself prematurely. I think you will have no problems with Renko being able to keep up the supply and I know victron quality means it will keep up with outputting the maximum no problem. You might find you want more so a second unit could be added later on.
I love that you are just like most of us…forget that switches are on, clutter, an ever growing list of things to do later, eat vegamite from a fridge found floating down the river (well maybe I will draw the line there). Take care and enjoy your trip.
I use AGM's in both our boats but only as house batteries not for engine use. There good for storing power as long as they are charged 101% every single time . 75% or 90% just doesn't cut it for a long batterie life. Having them at sea all the time with on way to put 101% in them every single day kills them. A lot of your very high end cars run two batteries. One to start the car (standard battery) and the AGM runs everything after that. Great Video and cheers from Murrell's Inlet SC !!
Unfortunately for the old AGMs the solar doesn't get them up to 100% on a cloudy day so they inevitably get many days of 75% charging, this is another good reason for me to use Lithium.
I think you have made a great decision going with LiFePO4 for the house batteries. From what I can tell, you are never in cold weather, but if you are, remember that there are constraints about charging LiFePO4 batteries in very cold weather. Cockatoos in the wild...amazing.
I installed a victron dc to dc charger in my camper trailer 3 months ago. It is the best upgrade i have ever done. I know it i sx different to what you face, but it has added so much value to my batteries.
@@DangarMarine I've done that in my camper. All the 12V stuff runs off the Orion and I added a votronic trickle charger to keep the starter battery charged. You won't need that. Works brilliantly.
Another great thing about LiFePO4 is the negligible battery impedance. This is the dreaded ‘voltage drop’ experienced with cables; a battery has this trait too. Practical example - my 1500W inverter cut off on under voltage using wet lead acid when I connected my kettle. The LiFePO4 boiled a kettle, no problem, out of the box. And that explains the round trip efficiency (1.05 is a very safe bet).
@@DangarMarine it’s resistance in this case - Volts per Amp. Typically an unwanted voltage drop when current flows. When charging, it’s the annoying 2V that gets added to the 12V we’re trying to charge, during discharge it’s the 10.5V we get at the battery terminals. Anyway, now you’re LiFePO4 you don’t need to worry about it 🤣
Ah, now, this takes me back to the autumn of '92. Uncle Cosmo was getting ready to take the Unclencher IV out for a barmy when one of his mates, pretty sure it was Improbable Ian, could be wrong, anyhoo, knocked a crate of Very Old Peculiar off the side. This was whilst they were tied up, so, shouldn't really have been a big deal, but Improbable Ian refused to go take a little splosh and retrieve them on account of them having been bunged down on the transom instead of the fridge, which made it, in his opinion, really a loading issue, and thusly, Uncle Cosmo's problem. Well, so, Uncle Cosmo wasn't the type to take this sort of thing kindly and so twatted Improbable Ian a few times to persuade him to go get damp. This all got a little out of hand, as they often did, and the popo ended up turning up and taking both of them in for a nice bit of cooling off in the cells. Most of the time that'd be fine, by the time they got back they'd have worked something out, but Improbable Ian must have been in a bugger of a tizzy because he pressed charges, Uncle Cosmo was shortly up in the dock and they got this doctor in to give him an assessment and this bloke said Cosmo's mood wasn't stabilised and he needed to get back on an even keel, which was a little ironic as that's where the brew had ended up, but for a few weeks he was on lithium on account of Ian's battery.
LiFePO4 batteries are awesome! Bluetti uses them in newer units too. I have one, and it frankly amazes me how good it is with a solar generator. AND the fact that it can go through over 2.5k charging cycles before degrading significantly doesn't hurt :)
Boating has really changed, my first boat in my teens was a 14foot plywood runabout with 25 hp Evinrude as old as I was with a car battery start and pump up tank with twin hose.
LiPo4 lithium Iron phosphate batteries you can use 90% , they are lighter, charge easier, and have VERY LITTLE risk of fire etc. Unlike Lithium Ion batteries which are dangerous in boats etc with fire/heat if they get damaged/punctures. Great choice Stu
In general I agree. You get a lot more cycles if you keep between 20 and 80 percent. One advantage of lead is that if you're working on a max discharge of 50%, then there's a big emergency reserve. Lead carbon is a different story, much better than agm. But still suffers from slower charging due to internal resistance.
Brilliant upgrade. I’m a big fan of the lithium. Clarke from Emily and Clarke’s Adventures is building a controller to sell that allows using both types of batteries so you can use the strong points of both battery types and actually get better service life out of both. I got a good chuckle with your inadvertent arc welding. I like your honesty that you even included that. As I’m watching this you’re only a few miles from entering the Great Sandy Straight(I believe you mentioned you’re going the inner route). I’m so looking forward to seeing 2 of my favorite channels working side by side. Cheers
Hi Stu, I know you aren't trying to make the system gold plated but I would recommend using a proper DC isolator switch for your solar. The minimum requirement to meet Australian standards is a DC-PV2 rated switch that does both positive and negative poles. It should be treated for 1.25 X your arrays short circuit current.
@@DangarMarine if you turn off the mppt before you open and close the switch you will be fine. The main thing is to not break or make current with a non compliant switch.
Fine Job Stu! New tech in batts is amazing and we are proud to see your updating the boat to take advantage of better products. You gotta have the juice to run stuff to be safe. I look at the wiring and it reminds me of doing a entire new harness on an old camaro I fixed years ago but yours is more complex.
Thanks mate. I can already see just how much better these lithium batteries are. Well worth the upgrade, particularly given the longer service life too.
Great job Stu we love our Lifepo4 i went down the DIY route which i documented on our channel but Drop in or DIY either way you will never look back 👍❤
Lots of people are sure showing interest in your trip and upgrades. Good to see. It all sounds like vodu to me, but then I was never any good with anything electrical. Hope I can catch you at Maloolaba otherwise I will wave as you go past on your way to Bundy.
have you considered a wind turbine? If so I've a 300W turbine I'd happily donate to Renko, unfortunately in Brisbane but we can find a donkey somewhere. It isn't good for my new boat, but it worked extremely well in combination with solar. All the running gear is with it so just another 12/24V feed if ya want it
Thanks mate, that's very kind of you. Adrian is going to be driving up to meet us in Bundaberg so he may be able to swing by. Can you send me an email to dangarstu@gmail.com?
I built my own 12v 500ah lithium iron phosphate LiFePO4 battery last year, amazing performance ditched the AGM’s , also added a 40a Enerdrive DC2DC and a 60a Enerdrive AC charger, Victron 2kw inverter and 600w of solar using Victron controllers, currently anchored a few hundred meters south of you at KFB if you want to have a look, cheers Ian
@@DangarMarine we pulled up earlier today to say hello but you had your head down in the engine room, we’re here for a few days, so come by before you leave, I would be happy to show it off to you, also got a shit load of tools on board it you need anything
A small suggestion...size your bank in a way so you don't let it drop below 20% SOC (state of charge) if you can...it will help your batteries last a much longer time. You may also be able to increase the charging current higher than the 30A that was set on the Victron app...if your battery can handle more it would help as well. Commenter Duncan Massive mentioned that he has a 300 watt turbine he will donate to you if you can get it from Brisbane...awesome dude!!
With the new lithium the battery is down to about 65% at dawn by the time the sun comes up so plenty of reserve. 30A is the physical limit that solar controller is able to handle and above the amount the cells are able to produce. The wind turbine would be an awesome addition for sure.
Nice video Stu, your doing the right thing upgrading the house batteries. Going on a trip like you guys are doing shows what is needed other than a larger boat. Haha
Wasn't expecting that "shocking" event at the 8:30 mark of the video. lol As an auto mechanic for over 40 years, I would be a hypocrite and a liar if I said that I haven't ever did that myself even in my later years wrenching and fully KNOWING BETTER. Hope that mishap doesn't give you any gremlins in your electronics later down the road, and it was just a "prank you pulled on yourself". Good upgrades and maintenance work on the boat, looking forward to seeing it back out on the water, and seeing how the new prop performs too.
Interesting video! I've been using 50 Ah LiFePO4 for a while for my shortwave radio. Here in Germany, all batteries I've seen come in sealed plastic chassis, which you have to cut open, to do any work on the battery, so seeing them in serviceable metal enclosures is good. One of the issues I've had with LiFePO4 are the non-matched cells, and this can be even bigger issue with batteries where the internal BMS of the battery can't provide data output. What basically happens is that the cell with lowest capacity will be the first to discharge, and later on, the first to completely charge. In an ideal world, internal balancing system of the battery should take care of that, but the devil's in the details. Some balancers are "smart" and they actually transfer charge between cells, to equalize the voltage. Others are "dumb" and they only discharge cells. Still, both kinds should work, right? Well... Depending on the BMS and the configuration, the BMS might be set to only balance while charging. In that case, if you're charging with greater current than the balancing system can dissipate, the BMS will usually stop the charging process when the cell with least capacity triggers overvoltage protection. Since balancing only works while charging, the balancer won't solve the issue, and the battery will look charged to the external charger. Another option is to have BMS balance all the time, and this can help equalize the cells, but again, if the charging system is charging faster than the balancer can discharge, the overvotlage protection will be triggered. At least, the battery will recover on its own from that, but to level it out, the charge current will still need to be set at a lower value than the balancer's discharge rate. Also, after finishing the charging, the balancer might be a bit overeager and end up trying to balance the battery until it's empty. Perhaps the metal cases can have some serious balancing resistors and using that mitigate the cell capacity difference issue? I've also seen some systems where the battery's BMS can be connected to the charger, so the charger knows internal state of the cells, but I, unfortunately, do not have any details on how those systems work. In any case, LiFePO4 is a great replacement for lead-acid!
Thanks for the info. I would be interesting to find out what model of BMS is inside and how it works. Damien has had his battery open so I'll ask him if he recorded any details.
Thanks Alan, there certainly are lots of changes happening. I've been very happy with the lithiums so far but will do an update when I install the DC-DC to complete the installation.
When you have some time, do go down the rabbit hole of building your own lifepo4 batteries from cells on AliExpress, alibaba, etc. I just built my first 12v 100ah battery for about $250 usd. Next building a 280ah. A great resource is the channel - DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse
Stu, is that little on/off switch for the solar rated at 30 amps DC? If not, it probably won't be a problem unless (until) you switch it off while current is flowing. DC tends to arc more than AC when the connection is broken.
It's all I've got onboard, but also being between the cells and controller it never sees 10 amps. The current from the cells is higher voltage and lower current then gets converted to 24V after the switch.
Electricity holds switches closed, ac is at 0 volts 50 or 60 times a second so the switch can let go at that 0 volt point, dc is always on so the switch needs to brute force open under voltage.
@@DangarMarine be very wary of higher voltage DC when switching, I would be very unhappy with using that switch (250v,10a ac) as you could strike an arc on high voltage DC, which could strike an arc over the contacts (think of an arc welder...) at the very worst, it could literally 'eat back' along the wiring all the way to the panels, or start a fire....
Another thing to watch out for, if that charger isn't designed for marine work, could I suggest you check that the DC output from the charger is floating/fully isolated from both the earth and both AC line inputs, many chargers aren't, not an issue with a car, but on a boat, it can lead to hull currents, not good as they can lead to accelerated hull corrosion if you spend a while plugged into a shore supply... even a few tens of MA through the hull can be very damaging..
Get a proper solar isolator switch or just unplug one of the leads on the panels. That light switch looking thing may catch fire when you try to turn off under load.
Lithiums are definitely a huge improvement, and when you look at total power available, and cost over lifespan, they become a no brainer... the cells I bought for my offgrid house for example, instead of the 5-7 years per bank before requiring replacement (at the 50% AHR DOD availability you mention- one of the biggest battery killers is people overdischarging) at 80% DOD with the cells I bought (Basically Natural up in Mackay) they are rated for 5000 cycles (15 years at one cycle per day) and baby them at 70%DOD and they are rated at more than 7000 cycles (20 years) instead of the 1200-1500 cycles an AGM will last at 50%DOD.... Yeah they do cost a bit more, but so does buying a bigger (heavier) L/A bank several times over....
I'm looking to do the same - replace my 3 x 90ah lead acid house batteries with a single 200ah LiFePO4. Aside from the alternator heat issues, the other major reason to get rid of the VSR is to prevent 2 batteries of different chemistry being connected in parallel. The only downside is that you can't parallel the banks through the VSR for an emergency start. (depending on whether your BMS support cranking amps....)
What’s your power budget look like for different operating conditions - engine on, engine off, daytime, nighttime? Minimum operating nighttime power? Is your alternator large enough to cover nighttime running loads plus put some charge on the battery? That’s what I’d aim for. There are some big 12V alternators these days. Another possibility is add a secondary alternator - it seems likely you have room for one. A good resource for marine electrical systems may be Bob Nuckolls’ AeroElectric Connection. He’s a long time avionics engineer that has been helping home builders of airplanes for decades - both with nuts and bolts as well as system architecture/ philosophy. There’s a lot of crossover between airplanes and boats in terms of electrical systems. His website has all sorts of resources. The matronics aeroelectric forum is a place where you might ask questions - I’ve seen where Bob answers marine electric questions. He’s a nice guy and very clear thinking.
Haven't really figured it out yet. The alternator can definitely keep up with the load (when working properly), the boat only draws about 10amps underway.
Make sure the BMS will do a low voltage shut down, sometimes they don't when they are supposed to. I installed an independent module. Low voltage overdraw is probably the number one thing that kills batteries of all types.
Those are really nice batteries. One thing I would suggest you and Damian look into is upgrading your alternators. Going with the newer and physically larger CS144 alternators will give you higher amp output and higher output at idle as well. If it were me I would also look at having a spare alternator in your case and on Brupeg I would also look at doing a dual alternator as they have the room for it although they unfortunately have a Cummins and not twin Detroit Diesels...
Great video - when you instal the dc dc charger do you mind elaborating and explaining what needs to be considered when mixing of chemistries between the banks and programing for charging? It's obviously possible and have been considering a lithium house and lead acid start myself so be keen to learn about that.
Stu - have you got hot water (and electric immersion) on the boat? Silly question maybe - but you could use it as a dump load for those occasions where the lithium’s have no capacity to absorb any more solar. Or just blind a panel?
Hi Stu. If I remember correctly you may have to adjust “Low Voltage Disconnect” on VictronConnect Inverter to get most out of your LiFePo battery. Cheers Mate looking good.
Stu. You produce great vids and I always look forward to your TH-cam’s. I have a question…I have a MCM 140 I/O. I got her a year ago. The problem I ran into was she is hard to start initially, on the initial start it sound like she was miss-firing and rough running. But once she warmed up she started just fine and purred like a kitten. After some research, I gave her a tune up; new wires, plugs and switched from points to an electronic ignition and fixed the timing; she was firing after TDC and needed to be BTDC. The EI and timing did not solve the problem but created more. She is still hard starting on the initial start and once she warms up she idles really high. I figured moving from points to an EI system has changed the efficiency of spark and combustion causing the motor to run more “rich”. But why is she still so hard starting and runs rough until she reaches temp? I’m at a loss and figured I would need to rebuild the carb and readjust the idle after. Any advice would be much appreciated! Keep the vids coming!
I really enjoy these videos, I hope your new N55 injectors are doing well for you if you got them in. I am not sure if you run your main Detroit 247 while underway but have you thought about a 400amp alternator? I use one on a Cummins L10 powered freightliner with a 5.5Kw inverter and it works great. I surely understand the need for more battery bank power though if you don't use your main most of the time while away from the dock. Just a thought I can get your the part number on the alternator if you need it.
I’d love to do a lithium upgrade on my boat but every time I start leaning towards some of these cheaper DIY options I get warned off. @Dangar Marine I checked the website of your battery and they do some really competitive packages.
Nice video. Glad to hear you've updated charging profiles and are going for B2B charger, with temperature sensing on the alternator. Have you also looked at the cable sizes, between alternator and lithium batteries. I suspect you may need to upgrade the diameter Happy boating James
Lead-acid batteries also lose capacity if they are not quickly and fully recharged whenever used. LFP batteries are OK with being left in a partial state of charge.
Just a thought, I have solar, I put manual in-line breakers On the panels, as well as on the batteries. I did this for both safety and diagnostics. I can kill either charge controller from either side or completely by shutting off both sides. Very cheap at 10$ a breaker, with 2 panel arrays , thats 4 breakers. works for me.
Hi Stu, What about installing an old style generator for charging the batteries on the Detroit? Is there room for it and what does Damien think? Yes save your inexpensive ballast and keep an eye for more while you are travelling, especially any boat boneyards to check out in your travels that you may not get to at Dangar Island, something to think about, might find used SS railings too.
hey stu..we used to run an extra alternator off the front pulley to give us dedicated house battery charging while underway..does the gemmy allow for this option? i know you have a dc dc installed but it still all relies on your main alternator at night..Just a thought and a reasonably cheap backup option i reckon..safe sailing you guys.
Some people rig both alternators into one high output system, so if you lose one, you don’t need to mess around reconfiguring it. You do need to be more careful with your monitoring though. I have also seen 3 alternators for big house battery setups.
Alternator would be pretty pointless when the engines not on lol. His only going to use big power at night with the boat off. Otherwise second alternator would be a great idea
@@Jacobtheunwise The very first thing said in the video is that the alternator could not supply the power needed to run the on board electronics and charge the batteries while under way at night.
@@Jacobtheunwise The whole system is still relying on one battery. A second alternator is a cheap source of redundancy for a critical system at night, or on long voyages. Then you could lose the battery, or an alternator and still have your systems. Practically every blue water cruiser uses multiple alternators.
I like what you've done. Probably a good idea to fit two alternators, maybe a 24V one. But this removes redundancy if the other fails. Emergency wiring should cover that if you set it up from the start.
Nice upgrade mate ... buuuuuuut @10:48 ... you are putting the battery in this room because it "cooler", then you wrap it in insulation thus keeping the heat in??
Look up the Will Prouse channel. He has many videos of opening up these cheap class B (used) batteries and analyzing their actual capacity, seeing how well they are assembled, and what the battery managing system board looks like, and if a low temperature cutoff is present and if it works. Most of these class B batteries are deficient.
Don't underestimate that low temp cutoff. Below freezing tends to be bad for LiFePO if you try to charge it (though discharging isn't usually an issue). Probably a bigger issue for Brupeg than Renko, though.
Was it only me sweating when you were trollying the Lithium batteries along the pier and loading them into the inflatable? That's quite an intricate setup but once completed I'm sure will serve you very well.
How much did the lithium batteries cost? I'm in the process of getting a lithium pack for my trolling motor boat, and i've been debating a DIY vs. COTS pack for a while now.
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Love this video.
I went through this with my 4.2m boat back at the start of the year.
I custom build a 280ah lithium. Victron DC-DC charger 30amp model but bought an 18amp model because the ETEC only outputs 25amp for charging, current DCDC drains too much for the etec to keep up. *face palm*
Got the solar controller to add as well. Will be a great setup when finished.
Going to keep the 30amp DCDC to charge the battteries when towing with the car. So not all has gone to waste.
Thanks mate. So are you saying that having the larger Victron was a problem? ie. It's not good to have the DC-DC charger exceed the maximum the alternator can supply? I'm hoping that the opposite isn't a problem as the 24V model has a maximum of 17amps which is below what my alternator can produce. Apparently the solution is to add more units in parallel but I'm hoping I can get away with a single unit for a while without frying it.
@@DangarMarine I am changing my setup without actually testing it properly. I am worried about the ETEC EMM being the weak link. I tested my theory with a victron 240v AC charger that has a 25amp output. And watching it on the app I could see it swinging from full 25amp output when the dc-dc was charging the house lithium until the voltage dropped below the cutoff for the dc-dc, then the current dropping quickly as the starting battery voltage bounced up and then the current shooting back up as the dc-dc turned back on.
I felt this dance of fluctuations in voltage and current would cause my ETEC to kill itself prematurely.
I think you will have no problems with Renko being able to keep up the supply and I know victron quality means it will keep up with outputting the maximum no problem. You might find you want more so a second unit could be added later on.
I love that you are just like most of us…forget that switches are on, clutter, an ever growing list of things to do later, eat vegamite from a fridge found floating down the river (well maybe I will draw the line there). Take care and enjoy your trip.
Thanks mate.
I use AGM's in both our boats but only as house batteries not for engine use. There good for storing power as long as they are charged 101% every single time . 75% or 90% just doesn't cut it for a long batterie life. Having them at sea all the time with on way to put 101% in them every single day kills them. A lot of your very high end cars run two batteries. One to start the car (standard battery) and the AGM runs everything after that. Great Video and cheers from Murrell's Inlet SC !!
Unfortunately for the old AGMs the solar doesn't get them up to 100% on a cloudy day so they inevitably get many days of 75% charging, this is another good reason for me to use Lithium.
When you said Lithium Batteries, I was thinking car type batties, not the high tech ones you bought. VERY nice kit
I'm very happy with this battery, it's working so much better than the AGMs ever did.
I think you have made a great decision going with LiFePO4 for the house batteries. From what I can tell, you are never in cold weather, but if you are, remember that there are constraints about charging LiFePO4 batteries in very cold weather. Cockatoos in the wild...amazing.
Yes, it never gets that cold here so there are no worries there. Fortunately I've never seen a cockatoo in a cage, that would be very sad.
I installed a victron dc to dc charger in my camper trailer 3 months ago. It is the best upgrade i have ever done. I know it i sx different to what you face, but it has added so much value to my batteries.
That's great to hear. I'm thinking of going with the Victron Orion Tr
@@DangarMarine I've done that in my camper. All the 12V stuff runs off the Orion and I added a votronic trickle charger to keep the starter battery charged. You won't need that. Works brilliantly.
Another great thing about LiFePO4 is the negligible battery impedance. This is the dreaded ‘voltage drop’ experienced with cables; a battery has this trait too.
Practical example - my 1500W inverter cut off on under voltage using wet lead acid when I connected my kettle. The LiFePO4 boiled a kettle, no problem, out of the box. And that explains the round trip efficiency (1.05 is a very safe bet).
Interesting info, thanks Bruce. I really do struggle to get my head around impedance. Must sit down and do some real reading today.
@@DangarMarine it’s resistance in this case - Volts per Amp. Typically an unwanted voltage drop when current flows. When charging, it’s the annoying 2V that gets added to the 12V we’re trying to charge, during discharge it’s the 10.5V we get at the battery terminals. Anyway, now you’re LiFePO4 you don’t need to worry about it 🤣
Ah, now, this takes me back to the autumn of '92. Uncle Cosmo was getting ready to take the Unclencher IV out for a barmy when one of his mates, pretty sure it was Improbable Ian, could be wrong, anyhoo, knocked a crate of Very Old Peculiar off the side. This was whilst they were tied up, so, shouldn't really have been a big deal, but Improbable Ian refused to go take a little splosh and retrieve them on account of them having been bunged down on the transom instead of the fridge, which made it, in his opinion, really a loading issue, and thusly, Uncle Cosmo's problem.
Well, so, Uncle Cosmo wasn't the type to take this sort of thing kindly and so twatted Improbable Ian a few times to persuade him to go get damp. This all got a little out of hand, as they often did, and the popo ended up turning up and taking both of them in for a nice bit of cooling off in the cells.
Most of the time that'd be fine, by the time they got back they'd have worked something out, but Improbable Ian must have been in a bugger of a tizzy because he pressed charges, Uncle Cosmo was shortly up in the dock and they got this doctor in to give him an assessment and this bloke said Cosmo's mood wasn't stabilised and he needed to get back on an even keel, which was a little ironic as that's where the brew had ended up, but for a few weeks he was on lithium on account of Ian's battery.
LOL
Lol 😆
Awesome. Love your comments mate. Cheers.
LiFePO4 batteries are awesome! Bluetti uses them in newer units too. I have one, and it frankly amazes me how good it is with a solar generator. AND the fact that it can go through over 2.5k charging cycles before degrading significantly doesn't hurt :)
The combination with solar was the real clincher for me, but as you say, long service life is a great attribute too.
I don’t watch for the technical stuff, I just like drinkin’ with you mate! Cheers!
Man after my own heart. :)
Boating has really changed, my first boat in my teens was a 14foot plywood runabout with 25 hp Evinrude as old as I was with a car battery start and pump up tank with twin hose.
I'm pretty sure they had big liveaboard boats when you were a teen too!
Nice upgrade Stu! I guess your cruise was a bit of a “shakedown” cruise. Great job mate!
For sure, you always discover issues once you get out on the water.
LiPo4 lithium Iron phosphate batteries you can use 90% , they are lighter, charge easier, and have VERY LITTLE risk of fire etc. Unlike Lithium Ion batteries which are dangerous in boats etc with fire/heat if they get damaged/punctures. Great choice Stu
In general I agree.
You get a lot more cycles if you keep between 20 and 80 percent. One advantage of lead is that if you're working on a max discharge of 50%, then there's a big emergency reserve. Lead carbon is a different story, much better than agm. But still suffers from slower charging due to internal resistance.
Yep, people don't seem to realise there are differnt types of lithium batteries with very different characteristics.
Brilliant upgrade. I’m a big fan of the lithium. Clarke from Emily and Clarke’s Adventures is building a controller to sell that allows using both types of batteries so you can use the strong points of both battery types and actually get better service life out of both.
I got a good chuckle with your inadvertent arc welding. I like your honesty that you even included that.
As I’m watching this you’re only a few miles from entering the Great Sandy Straight(I believe you mentioned you’re going the inner route). I’m so looking forward to seeing 2 of my favorite channels working side by side.
Cheers
Interesting, will check that out.
@@DangarMarine he’s got two good videos explaining how they work together. They were in the last few months.
that's pretty neat that it monitors the alternator temp.
Yes, it is pretty cool.
Hi Stu, I know you aren't trying to make the system gold plated but I would recommend using a proper DC isolator switch for your solar. The minimum requirement to meet Australian standards is a DC-PV2 rated switch that does both positive and negative poles. It should be treated for 1.25 X your arrays short circuit current.
When I get to Bundaberg I'll be able to order parts again. At the moment just making do with what I have in the spares box.
@@DangarMarine if you turn off the mppt before you open and close the switch you will be fine. The main thing is to not break or make current with a non compliant switch.
Great VLOG Stu!!! Love watching from Michigan USA!
Thanks mate, glad you liked it. :
Its amazing how far lithium has come in just two years.
Very good episode, Stu. I’m always learning from your videos! Thank you
Glad to hear it!
Glad to see you going with Lithium, best choice IMO.
I think so too!
Glad you understand all this! I was lost after we are going to.....William
Fine Job Stu! New tech in batts is amazing and we are proud to see your updating the boat to take advantage of better products. You gotta have the juice to run stuff to be safe. I look at the wiring and it reminds me of doing a entire new harness on an old camaro I fixed years ago but yours is more complex.
Thanks mate. I can already see just how much better these lithium batteries are. Well worth the upgrade, particularly given the longer service life too.
LOL! Didn't have a clue what you were talking about, but enjoyed it anyway! Hello from Indianapolis, IN.
Thanks mate. :)
Yeah, the best birthday present so far today. Thanks for sharing.
Happy birthday! :)
Great job Stu we love our Lifepo4 i went down the DIY route which i documented on our channel but Drop in or DIY either way you will never look back 👍❤
Lots of people are sure showing interest in your trip and upgrades. Good to see. It all sounds like vodu to me, but then I was never any good with anything electrical. Hope I can catch you at Maloolaba otherwise I will wave as you go past on your way to Bundy.
I'm planning to do an electrics video that starts from the very beginning soon. Hopefully that will help!
@@DangarMarine Thanks Stu.
have you considered a wind turbine? If so I've a 300W turbine I'd happily donate to Renko, unfortunately in Brisbane but we can find a donkey somewhere. It isn't good for my new boat, but it worked extremely well in combination with solar. All the running gear is with it so just another 12/24V feed if ya want it
That is a good idea....note: go with a vertical wind turbine. It will capture the wind in any direction, and it actually takes up less space.
too inefficient for marine use
@@gotchagoing8843 this is a traditional one, they spin to follow the wind in any direction
@@ysesq they are made specifically for marine use
Thanks mate, that's very kind of you. Adrian is going to be driving up to meet us in Bundaberg so he may be able to swing by. Can you send me an email to dangarstu@gmail.com?
I built my own 12v 500ah lithium iron phosphate LiFePO4 battery last year, amazing performance ditched the AGM’s , also added a 40a Enerdrive DC2DC and a 60a Enerdrive AC charger, Victron 2kw inverter and 600w of solar using Victron controllers, currently anchored a few hundred meters south of you at KFB if you want to have a look, cheers Ian
Hi mate. Sounds like a great setup. We'll be around until the morning so it would be interesting to take a peek.
@@DangarMarine we pulled up earlier today to say hello but you had your head down in the engine room, we’re here for a few days, so come by before you leave, I would be happy to show it off to you, also got a shit load of tools on board it you need anything
I’d love to see an anger reel at the end. Like a bloopers reel but incorporates all the swearing and frustration.
Another great and very informative video. Thanks Stu.
Thanks Allan, glad you enjoyed it.
A small suggestion...size your bank in a way so you don't let it drop below 20% SOC (state of charge) if you can...it will help your batteries last a much longer time.
You may also be able to increase the charging current higher than the 30A that was set on the Victron app...if your battery can handle more it would help as well.
Commenter Duncan Massive mentioned that he has a 300 watt turbine he will donate to you if you can get it from Brisbane...awesome dude!!
With the new lithium the battery is down to about 65% at dawn by the time the sun comes up so plenty of reserve. 30A is the physical limit that solar controller is able to handle and above the amount the cells are able to produce. The wind turbine would be an awesome addition for sure.
Cant imagine having those colorfull birds flying about in the outdoors!!! Great stuff! Cheers from Canada!
I can't imagine birds being in cages!
Nice video Stu, your doing the right thing upgrading the house batteries. Going on a trip like you guys are doing shows what is needed other than a larger boat. Haha
Thanks Tim, I'm very happy with the upgrade. Definitely need a bigger boat...
Good setup Stu (Sparky😉). You hit all the bases👍
Thanks Karl. :)
Wasn't expecting that "shocking" event at the 8:30 mark of the video. lol
As an auto mechanic for over 40 years, I would be a hypocrite and a liar if I said that I haven't ever did that myself even in my later years wrenching and fully KNOWING BETTER. Hope that mishap doesn't give you any gremlins in your electronics later down the road, and it was just a "prank you pulled on yourself".
Good upgrades and maintenance work on the boat, looking forward to seeing it back out on the water, and seeing how the new prop performs too.
Thanks so much Stu,take care
Thanks David, you too.
VERY interesting and well explained. Thanks, Stu
Thanks Rex, glad you liked it.
Great explanation about batteries! I had no idea of all the benefits. Thanks again!
Glad to help!
Interesting video! I've been using 50 Ah LiFePO4 for a while for my shortwave radio. Here in Germany, all batteries I've seen come in sealed plastic chassis, which you have to cut open, to do any work on the battery, so seeing them in serviceable metal enclosures is good.
One of the issues I've had with LiFePO4 are the non-matched cells, and this can be even bigger issue with batteries where the internal BMS of the battery can't provide data output. What basically happens is that the cell with lowest capacity will be the first to discharge, and later on, the first to completely charge.
In an ideal world, internal balancing system of the battery should take care of that, but the devil's in the details. Some balancers are "smart" and they actually transfer charge between cells, to equalize the voltage. Others are "dumb" and they only discharge cells. Still, both kinds should work, right?
Well...
Depending on the BMS and the configuration, the BMS might be set to only balance while charging. In that case, if you're charging with greater current than the balancing system can dissipate, the BMS will usually stop the charging process when the cell with least capacity triggers overvoltage protection. Since balancing only works while charging, the balancer won't solve the issue, and the battery will look charged to the external charger.
Another option is to have BMS balance all the time, and this can help equalize the cells, but again, if the charging system is charging faster than the balancer can discharge, the overvotlage protection will be triggered. At least, the battery will recover on its own from that, but to level it out, the charge current will still need to be set at a lower value than the balancer's discharge rate. Also, after finishing the charging, the balancer might be a bit overeager and end up trying to balance the battery until it's empty.
Perhaps the metal cases can have some serious balancing resistors and using that mitigate the cell capacity difference issue?
I've also seen some systems where the battery's BMS can be connected to the charger, so the charger knows internal state of the cells, but I, unfortunately, do not have any details on how those systems work.
In any case, LiFePO4 is a great replacement for lead-acid!
Thanks for the info. I would be interesting to find out what model of BMS is inside and how it works. Damien has had his battery open so I'll ask him if he recorded any details.
She's gone be in tip top shape when you get her like you want her. Labor of love.
Very interesting video. Lots of new technology out there for us boater's
Thanks Alan, there certainly are lots of changes happening. I've been very happy with the lithiums so far but will do an update when I install the DC-DC to complete the installation.
When you have some time, do go down the rabbit hole of building your own lifepo4 batteries from cells on AliExpress, alibaba, etc. I just built my first 12v 100ah battery for about $250 usd. Next building a 280ah. A great resource is the channel - DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse
I've had the 12v 200 amp hour lithium from big wei in operation for over a year now, not one fault,
Davi b
Great to hear. I think this battery is going to work really well for years to come.
Stu, is that little on/off switch for the solar rated at 30 amps DC? If not, it probably won't be a problem unless (until) you switch it off while current is flowing. DC tends to arc more than AC when the connection is broken.
It's all I've got onboard, but also being between the cells and controller it never sees 10 amps. The current from the cells is higher voltage and lower current then gets converted to 24V after the switch.
Electricity holds switches closed, ac is at 0 volts 50 or 60 times a second so the switch can let go at that 0 volt point, dc is always on so the switch needs to brute force open under voltage.
@@DangarMarine be very wary of higher voltage DC when switching, I would be very unhappy with using that switch (250v,10a ac) as you could strike an arc on high voltage DC, which could strike an arc over the contacts (think of an arc welder...) at the very worst, it could literally 'eat back' along the wiring all the way to the panels, or start a fire....
Another thing to watch out for, if that charger isn't designed for marine work, could I suggest you check that the DC output from the charger is floating/fully isolated from both the earth and both AC line inputs, many chargers aren't, not an issue with a car, but on a boat, it can lead to hull currents, not good as they can lead to accelerated hull corrosion if you spend a while plugged into a shore supply... even a few tens of MA through the hull can be very damaging..
Get a proper solar isolator switch or just unplug one of the leads on the panels. That light switch looking thing may catch fire when you try to turn off under load.
Finally! Thanks for the LiFePO4 charging parameters. Are the Victron bits and pieces, the circuit breakers and switches marinised?
Yes, all designed for the marine environment.
Lithiums are definitely a huge improvement, and when you look at total power available, and cost over lifespan, they become a no brainer... the cells I bought for my offgrid house for example, instead of the 5-7 years per bank before requiring replacement (at the 50% AHR DOD availability you mention- one of the biggest battery killers is people overdischarging) at 80% DOD with the cells I bought (Basically Natural up in Mackay) they are rated for 5000 cycles (15 years at one cycle per day) and baby them at 70%DOD and they are rated at more than 7000 cycles (20 years) instead of the 1200-1500 cycles an AGM will last at 50%DOD.... Yeah they do cost a bit more, but so does buying a bigger (heavier) L/A bank several times over....
I'm looking to do the same - replace my 3 x 90ah lead acid house batteries with a single 200ah LiFePO4. Aside from the alternator heat issues, the other major reason to get rid of the VSR is to prevent 2 batteries of different chemistry being connected in parallel. The only downside is that you can't parallel the banks through the VSR for an emergency start. (depending on whether your BMS support cranking amps....)
Good point about the different banks being in parallel. I'm planning on replacing it with a Victron Orion Tr.
I just watched a master class in lithium battery use and selection.
What’s your power budget look like for different operating conditions - engine on, engine off, daytime, nighttime? Minimum operating nighttime power? Is your alternator large enough to cover nighttime running loads plus put some charge on the battery? That’s what I’d aim for.
There are some big 12V alternators these days. Another possibility is add a secondary alternator - it seems likely you have room for one.
A good resource for marine electrical systems may be Bob Nuckolls’ AeroElectric Connection. He’s a long time avionics engineer that has been helping home builders of airplanes for decades - both with nuts and bolts as well as system architecture/ philosophy. There’s a lot of crossover between airplanes and boats in terms of electrical systems. His website has all sorts of resources. The matronics aeroelectric forum is a place where you might ask questions - I’ve seen where Bob answers marine electric questions. He’s a nice guy and very clear thinking.
Haven't really figured it out yet. The alternator can definitely keep up with the load (when working properly), the boat only draws about 10amps underway.
Interesting and informative video. Thanks for this one (and all the others)!
What kind of camera are you filming with. Very clear video. Looks great.
Its a GoPro 8
@@DangarMarine What setting do you use? Video quality? Frames per second?
Nice battery up grade
Thanks mate.
Make sure the BMS will do a low voltage shut down, sometimes they don't when they are supposed to. I installed an independent module. Low voltage overdraw is probably the number one thing that kills batteries of all types.
Yes, BMS shuts down at 20v
Nice Battery upgrade Stu, Lipo power is nice, Jeff in LA USA
Thanks Jeff!
Those are really nice batteries. One thing I would suggest you and Damian look into is upgrading your alternators. Going with the newer and physically larger CS144 alternators will give you higher amp output and higher output at idle as well. If it were me I would also look at having a spare alternator in your case and on Brupeg I would also look at doing a dual alternator as they have the room for it although they unfortunately have a Cummins and not twin Detroit Diesels...
Yes, have been looking at a better alternator to install. Appreciate the tip on what could be a good option.
@@DangarMarine Foresty Forest installed a Mechman Elite Series 250 amp alternator in his van. A brute of an alternator, but pricey.
Learned a lot. Much appreciated
You're welcome Ralph.
Why are you running the autopilot off the house bank? Don’t you have an alternator on the engine?
It was a fault with the alternator.
Great video - when you instal the dc dc charger do you mind elaborating and explaining what needs to be considered when mixing of chemistries between the banks and programing for charging? It's obviously possible and have been considering a lithium house and lead acid start myself so be keen to learn about that.
Thanks Adam, will do!
Liked the exotic birds at the end!
Thanks mate.
Stu - have you got hot water (and electric immersion) on the boat? Silly question maybe - but you could use it as a dump load for those occasions where the lithium’s have no capacity to absorb any more solar. Or just blind a panel?
Anything you can do to simplify your wiring and battery banks will be an improvement.
8:21 Hahaha...you got me. I thought I was ready for it, but no.
Hi Stu. If I remember correctly you may have to adjust “Low Voltage Disconnect” on VictronConnect Inverter to get most out of your LiFePo battery. Cheers Mate looking good.
I'll look into that, thanks.
Stu. You produce great vids and I always look forward to your TH-cam’s. I have a question…I have a MCM 140 I/O. I got her a year ago. The problem I ran into was she is hard to start initially, on the initial start it sound like she was miss-firing and rough running. But once she warmed up she started just fine and purred like a kitten.
After some research, I gave her a tune up; new wires, plugs and switched from points to an electronic ignition and fixed the timing; she was firing after TDC and needed to be BTDC. The EI and timing did not solve the problem but created more. She is still hard starting on the initial start and once she warms up she idles really high. I figured moving from points to an EI system has changed the efficiency of spark and combustion causing the motor to run more “rich”. But why is she still so hard starting and runs rough until she reaches temp? I’m at a loss and figured I would need to rebuild the carb and readjust the idle after. Any advice would be much appreciated!
Keep the vids coming!
I really enjoy these videos, I hope your new N55 injectors are doing well for you if you got them in. I am not sure if you run your main Detroit 247 while underway but have you thought about a 400amp alternator? I use one on a Cummins L10 powered freightliner with a 5.5Kw inverter and it works great. I surely understand the need for more battery bank power though if you don't use your main most of the time while away from the dock. Just a thought I can get your the part number on the alternator if you need it.
Thanks mate. I have been looking at replacement alternators but I'll need to see how the budget goes on the hardstand first.
@@DangarMarine I certainly understand that! Thanks for taking the time to edit and post the videos you do!
Yes! I have lipo4 batteries, paid $1500 aus delivered for 8.5kw off alibaba
It's amazing the deals that can be found. How are you finding those batteries so far?
I’d love to do a lithium upgrade on my boat but every time I start leaning towards some of these cheaper DIY options I get warned off. @Dangar Marine I checked the website of your battery and they do some really competitive packages.
Nice video. Glad to hear you've updated charging profiles and are going for B2B charger, with temperature sensing on the alternator.
Have you also looked at the cable sizes, between alternator and lithium batteries. I suspect you may need to upgrade the diameter
Happy boating
James
Good point about the cable sizes. I'll make sure they are suitably sized for the current. Fortunately being 24V they'll be a little lighter.
Good deal....Thanks mate cheers...!
Great TOP RAMEN installation!!!
Lead-acid batteries also lose capacity if they are not quickly and fully recharged whenever used. LFP batteries are OK with being left in a partial state of charge.
Yes, and this is very common on a boat that is always drawing current but not always experiencing a sunny day for the solar cells.
The auto generated subtitles say "Hey there, Dan Garcia here" 😂
8:20 That fast cut away scared me, I thought it was going to cut to you lying in a hospital bed
...lookin' good, nice work, stay safe and have a good one..
Thanks Bob.
Stu
I noticed on some of the vessels in the marina, they had windmills. Could you install a windmill on Renko to charge at night while under way?
Yes, a viewer further down has offered to give me one which is very nice.
The victron b2b charger is excellent
Yes, I've been looking at the Orion Tr
13 people don't like Stu's easygoing personality and charm. Oh well, can't please 'em all.
You certainly can't.
Just a thought, I have solar, I put manual in-line breakers On the panels, as well as on the batteries. I did this for both safety and diagnostics. I can kill either charge controller from either side or completely by shutting off both sides. Very cheap at 10$ a breaker, with 2 panel arrays , thats 4 breakers. works for me.
Hi Stu,
What about installing an old style generator for charging the batteries on the Detroit?
Is there room for it and what does Damien think?
Yes save your inexpensive ballast and keep an eye for more while you are travelling, especially any boat boneyards to check out in your travels that you may not get to at Dangar Island, something to think about, might find used SS railings too.
Yup, more power needed for night cruse. 24 volt large alternator, common on some big engines. Ive even seen 36 volt systems on some older boats.
hey stu..we used to run an extra alternator off the front pulley to give us dedicated house battery charging while underway..does the gemmy allow for this option? i know you have a dc dc installed but it still all relies on your main alternator at night..Just a thought and a reasonably cheap backup option i reckon..safe sailing you guys.
Some people rig both alternators into one high output system, so if you lose one, you don’t need to mess around reconfiguring it. You do need to be more careful with your monitoring though. I have also seen 3 alternators for big house battery setups.
Alternator would be pretty pointless when the engines not on lol. His only going to use big power at night with the boat off. Otherwise second alternator would be a great idea
@@Jacobtheunwise The very first thing said in the video is that the alternator could not supply the power needed to run the on board electronics and charge the batteries while under way at night.
@@nicbrownable thats because his old battery was going out. Should be fine now with the new one
@@Jacobtheunwise The whole system is still relying on one battery. A second alternator is a cheap source of redundancy for a critical system at night, or on long voyages. Then you could lose the battery, or an alternator and still have your systems. Practically every blue water cruiser uses multiple alternators.
I like what you've done. Probably a good idea to fit two alternators, maybe a 24V one. But this removes redundancy if the other fails. Emergency wiring should cover that if you set it up from the start.
An altetnator does nothing when the engines off at night lol
@@Jacobtheunwise the specific problem was night cruising
Redundancy would be good. The existing alternator is 24V and so would the spare be.
OCD person suitably annoyed…. Still gave your video a like as Lithium is a beat choice as well your detail is very good.
Thanks mate!
have you considered the lithiums ability to run your future flux capacitor? Gotta keep your options open on that front.
I have a big collection of old banana peels so all good. ;)
Nice upgrade mate ... buuuuuuut @10:48 ... you are putting the battery in this room because it "cooler", then you wrap it in insulation thus keeping the heat in??
Doesn't get hot charging or dischanging, just can't be near engine heat.
Look up the Will Prouse channel. He has many videos of opening up these cheap class B (used) batteries and analyzing their actual capacity, seeing how well they are assembled, and what the battery managing system board looks like, and if a low temperature cutoff is present and if it works.
Most of these class B batteries are deficient.
Will take a look.
@@DangarMarine That's Will Prowse with a "w". He really is a good source.
Good info.
Glad you think so!
Hahaha, 8:21 don't ya just hate that. ZAAPPP!
Don't underestimate that low temp cutoff. Below freezing tends to be bad for LiFePO if you try to charge it (though discharging isn't usually an issue). Probably a bigger issue for Brupeg than Renko, though.
Yes, never gets below freezing here so won't be a problem for me.
Hey Stu great upgrade mate, how many AHs is the lithium battery if you don't mind mate. Thanks safe travels. Seeya Rob
400Ah at 24V
Was it only me sweating when you were trollying the Lithium batteries along the pier and loading them into the inflatable? That's quite an intricate setup but once completed I'm sure will serve you very well.
I imagine they would be quite spectacular if they went in the drink!
Very interesting.👍
Thank you! Cheers!
I jumped when you shorted that battery lead
Sorry!
How much did the lithium batteries cost? I'm in the process of getting a lithium pack for my trolling motor boat, and i've been debating a DIY vs. COTS pack for a while now.
www.bigweibattery.com.au/products/vehicle-battery/deep-cycle/lithium/
I’d swear that cockatoo was smiling😀
does a lithium battery not get hot? Wishing you well and good sailing.
I've put the infrared themometer on it several times under load and charging and it is quite cool.
Please elaborate on the need for and function of the dc-to-dc charger.
I'll do a video when I install it.
So good 😊 Excellent news thanks Stu! Ateam 👉🏻Lithium Solar
Thanks mate.
And the one bad one you kept for ballast...LOL !!!
Better than throwing it away and then paying for lead...
Hey Stu, could I suggest you group up your videos eg: engine, electric system
Would two commonly available alternators a better than one bigger possibly expensive one?
Redundancy is always a good thing offshore.
Very interesting. Learned something :)
Glad to hear it!