Was Dispensationalism Invented by Darby?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2024
- We are joined on today’s episode by Cory Marsh and James Fazio from Southern California Seminary. Our topic of discussion is the history of dispensational thought prior to Darby. Marsh and Fazio have edited a brand new volume entitled, Discovering Dispensationalism, which relies on quality scholarship to argue for the presence of dispensational themes prior to Darby. Join us as we survey the motivation behind the book as well as some of the content that the authors have put forward as evidence that dispensational thought existed prior to Darby.
Buy Discovering Dispensationalism: www.amazon.com/dp/B0C6C1KMMT/
Visit Southern California Seminary website where Cory Marsh and James Fazio teach: www.socalsem.edu/
Time Stamps:
00:00 Introduction
1:35 About Cory Marsh
2:39 About James Fazio
4:05 Motivation and Purpose behind Discovering Dispensationalism?
9:50 How Long has it Taken to the Book?
13:00 The Importance of Dealing with Historical Objections to Dispensationalism
15:20 How Were the Various Contributors Chosen for The Book?
23:30 What Do You Mean Referring to Dispensationalism before Darby?
31:15 Is Darby Even Significant to This Discussion?
39:27 Recent Publications Dealing with the History of Dispensationalism
47:12 What Evidences of Dispensational Thought are Found in the Early Church?
54:55 The Difference between Dispensationalism and Dispensational Thought in History
57:10 What Evidences of Dispensational Thought are Found in the Middle Ages?
1:09:35 How do you hope this book will be received?
1:12:05 How does dispensationalism doing today?
1:20:45 Future projects and areas of study for James and Cory
1:25:13 Outro
#dispensationalism #eschatology #churchhistory #darby
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Just discovered your channel through an interview with Mike Vlach and really appreciate what you're doing. Starting to go back and listen to other episodes of your podcast, and this one in particular. You're doing good and valuable work. Keep it up! Praying for you. P.S. Would love to see the "Reluctant Dispensationalist" Paul Martin Henebury on your show (maybe you already have and I missed it). He has a unique perspective on dispensationalism.
Thanks for following, Micah! I am planning on working something out with Henebury to get him on. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@thebiblesojourner Awesome. Looking forward to it. Dispensationalism has been needing quality apologetics and I'm glad to see this material!
Good to see you still around, Micah.
@@macsprinter hi Alf. Good to see you here as well. I’m still around, I just avoid the Twitter space these days.
@@micahmartin4762 It can be a jungle at times.
I just discovered your channel, and I am blessed to have listened to this conversation/interview. I must say that I find it amazing that we have believers who would actually argue against dispensational thought when the word is literally written in the Scriptures. You've got a new subscriber. God Bless.
Appreciate that my friend! I pray you find many useful and helpful videos on the channel.
Thanks so much guys. I plan to get the book and try to incorporate the ideas into my teaching.
Thanks for watching!
Fantastic work!
Appreciate the encouragement!
Yes, that did help very much! Thank you!
So glad to hear that!
Revisiting this discussion. Excellent.
Great! Glad you found it helpful.
Keep up the fantastic content, brother.
Thanks, Alfonso. Really appreciate the encouragement!
Just subscribed on pod bean. Looking forward to listening as I'm walking.
Hope you enjoy it! Let us know what you think.
@@thebiblesojourner I will, thanks.
Good interview. I am looking forward to reading and reviewing this one. Forged From Reformation was excellent and Dispensationalism Before Darby brought me back to Dispensationalism after I left.
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word.
Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Watch the TH-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
I picked up the book shortly after its release and have been enjoying it.
Thanks for supporting the quality work these scholars have done. I hope you enjoy the whole thing. I have my own personal favorites, but I'd be curious to know which chapters are your favorites?
I really appreciate your podcasts being "no nonsense". Some podcasts try to be "cute and funny". Nothing wrong with having fun or being lighthearted - but I don't do "cutesy" 🙂
Appreciate that encouragement! We do try!
Very interesting and enlightening!!!
Thanks for watching!
Wow, glad to come across this podcast. A really good friend of mine who was a minister for years is believing some lies about how some postmillennials like Bruce Gore and Kayser are misrepresenting the premillennial view over history and totally missing evidence of covenantal dispensation that the Baptist Confession in 1689. I will definitely have to get a hold of this book.
Glad you ran across the podcast as well! Hope you enjoy many of the backlist of episodes as well.
I have to wonder. It seems to be a common thought that the pretrib rapture was not even known before the time of JH Darby. They say Darby invented it. I can't help it t but it automatically brings me to Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Are you seeing it?
Yes, it is inexcusable for someone to say Darby invented the rapture now days. Too much is out there showing otherwise.
Unfortunately now that the 'Derby invented' argument has been soundly rebuked, those that have made a reputation as a voice piece on that platform will continue to re-invent '...monk x invented such and such'.
This is unfortunate and it's a self setting trap.
I'm a pre-tribulation rapture person but I'm fine with those who are mid-tribbers but it would be foolish to attribute either to a person 'x' in the post early church fathers when those fathers had pondered both situations but either pre or mid trib rapture embraces Dispensational Pre-millenialism.
We definitely have a rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4 and the first three chapters close pointing to that hope.
Great interview.
Dispensational view of scripture had helped to to understand the Bible better than ever.
Amen, brother! It is really just a straight forward reading of Scripture that coincides with the original intent of the author. That's all dispensationalism is trying to do.
Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?
(Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)
The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?
1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Paul’s interpretation in Galatians 3:8.)
2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?
3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?
4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?
5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?
6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?
7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?
8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)
9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
10. Watch the TH-cam video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.
Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:
“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.
Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.
John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…
"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25
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Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)
What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?
(See what Joshua said about the Old Covenant land promise in Josh. 21:43.)
Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?
Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?
Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is it fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24?
Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church, if the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20? (See also 2 Thess. 1:7-10) If the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant “obsolete” in Hebrews 8:6-13, why would God go back to the Old Covenant system during a future time period?
@@SpotterVideo Wow, thanks for the indepth comment! Obviously, can't respond to all of it, but just wanted to challenge you to learn more about dispensationalism. Your representation shows you haven't really taken the time to understand the viewpoint you are critiquing. I'll just make comments on your first three points:
1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Paul’s interpretation in Galatians 3:8.)
Comment: Gal 3:8 comments that God would save Gentiles. That has always been His plan, everyone agrees on that point. But, I fail to see how "all the families of the earth" replace the seed of Abraham as Israelites? Maybe I'm missing what you're trying to argue here, but this seems like nobody is disagreeing that God saves Gentiles. The only point that is often downplayed is that God gave specific promises to the Jewish people as well.
2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?
Comment: "Two peoples of God" language is a little disingenuous. Many (most that I know of) would say there is one people of God. I'm sure there are people who claim there are two peoples of God, but most would say one people of God, with specific functional distinctions for the future geopolitical nation of Israel. Similar to how men and women are one in Christ, but have different roles or functions.
3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?
Comment: Again, a bit disingenous, because EVERYONE has to agree there are multiple uses of the term seed in Scripture. Most scholars recognize at least 3 references to seed: (1) Ethnic Israelites (obvious from the OT); (2) Christ (obvious from OT and NT), (3) Those who believe in faith (Gal 3, Rom 4). So, EVERYONE says there are many seeds.
Sorry I don't have time to respond to more, but hopefully this encourages you to do some original research and to try to avoid mischaracterizing views.
@@thebiblesojourner What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word.
Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the TH-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
@@SpotterVideo
I'm no theologian, but I think a few things of Scripture are pretty clear on an objective and logical basis grounded in scripture, but I'm always open to correction.
Were dispensationalism true, there would have been absolutely no need for the Apostles to convert any Jews in Israel. Fact is, for seven years, all new Christian converts (every single one of them) were Jewish until Steven's death and Paul's commission to the gentiles.
Dispensational theology in Europe in 1800's was called Darbyism, that a fact.
John Hagy, one of the main leaders of dispensational theology states the Jews don't need Jesus, they have their own covenant with God... so why did Jesus and the apostles suffer and die to bring the new covenant to the Jews ?
This 100 year hearsay in my opinion has not only prevented Christians from bringing their Jewish brothers to the Lord, but hoodwinked evangelical Christians into supporting every war in the middle east.
Blessed be the peacemakers... Mat 5:9 ?
The scriptures are objectively clear on the implications to antichrists and to Christians blessing and supporting those antichrists, who deny Christ and transgress his doctrine.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
They are correct about disp thought needing to be in the local church. That and that alone will drive publishing. As long as Christians continue to consume the reformed/covenant system with their $, the publishers will never change. It’s up to the consumer.
Good point. Money talks!
@@thebiblesojournerYes, currently, only reformed/covenant books sell. Publishers are businesses. They give what the consumers want so they can make $. Their job isn’t to disciple us. 😂 Christians really need to be more discerning, but that’s another topic and a tall order.
It would be good to hear them address why dispensationalism has been revised twice since Clarence Larkin.
In my videos with Doug Bookman we talk about that. In sum, dispensationalism is self correcting and is not tied to a theological construct but rather a hermeneutical one. So it is expected that there would be changes and following the reformation principle of “always reforming.” I think you would find the videos we did with Bookman helpful on that.
Short answers. How relevant is Mr Darby and his Exclusive Bretheren(sic) Scofield et al to modern day biblical scholarship, the 3rd quest , and more? Answer is in the negative.
Probably not very significant, but I’ve enjoyed the multiple biographies of Darby coming out recently. It shows that Darby was a lot different than people think normally. His theological beliefs were quite a mixed bag.
It would be better (1:18:00 for example) to use a different word than “church” for this meaning. I see church as a historical misnomer, an establishment for a Roman emperor and his apologist (Eusebius) who wrote a set of “history” that is misleading.
I would see no problem with defining things differently, but currently this is where common definitions are at. Until we can force others to make such distinctions, we are tied to using the same language (which isn’t inherently bad).
Dispensationalism hangs its hat on Daniel 9, verses 24 to 29 which said God required 70 weeks from Israel but Israel gave 69 leaving one week (7 years) in which God will need to deal with Israel.
Chapter 9 speaks about a future Antichrist who breaks a peace covenant with Israel midway through the duration and he enters the constructed 3.5 year old Third Jewish Temple, defiles it and proclaims himself as God.
That is true. Dispensationalism believes that, but it does not "hang its hat" on that if that means that what the entire system depends on. The essential element of the system of dispensationalism is a hermeneutic process which prioritizes authorial intent and non-subjective interpretation of Scripture. That interpretive framework leads to that conclusion.
Dr Ken Johnson, Dr Andy Wood do some good TH-cam presentations regarding the beliefs of the early church fathers. They would agree with this video. It also vindicates the Kirk Cameron 'Left Behind' movie.
Thanks for the affirmation. I appreciate the work of other scholars on these issues!
Belfast USA?
If you are talking about where Darby ministered, he had a significant ministry in Ireland (Belfast Ireland).
“And first, as regards the meaning of the word itself, it is easily to be seen, that the Biblical meaning thereof is radically different from that assigned to it by the "Scofield Bible," where it is stated that:--
"A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect to some specific revelation of the Will of God" (note to Gen. 1:28).
*But in our English Version of the Scriptures the word "dispensation" is not in a single instance used to designate a period of time.”*
Never once does the word dispensation refer to a “period of time” in the English version of the Bible.
I’m not exactly sure of the point you’re trying to make. Nobody really debates the word dispensation, or that it was used 4 times in the KJV. Even people who disagree with dispensationalism as a system use the word similarly. Sorry if I’m not following your argument exactly.
Read Renald Shower's "There is a Difference" which tracks millennial thought down through the centuries.
What does he argue?
@@thebiblesojourner He's here on YT. In the book referred to, he first shows the history of theological thought concerning millennialism. There is commentary as to what went on to change the original teaching. He is fair in his assessments. It's a good overview but if you are anti-dispensational you probably won't like it. But it is primarily a cataloging of the history of the doctrine.
@@leefury7 Sounds fascinating--I'm adding it to my list. Thanks! Appreciate you dropping that into the comments.
Maybe. The gospel message is what we KNOW, most of the rest is what we THINK. We'll all find out by and by. 🙏✝️🙏
I seem to think we will probably be surprised on a lot 😄 But we do the best we can!
Was Darby calvinist?
He was
He was Plymouth Brethren.
The one and only reference in the entire bible for the idea of a " millennium kingdom" is found the book of revelation chapter 20, with very little detail in this chapter. Not to mention the book of revelation being one of the hardest books to interpret by its very nature of being highly symbolic. Then the entire schema of dispensationalism is read back into the passage by trying to connect it to the old testament prophecies and so forth. It's an interesting theory at best, and worst it teaches people to read into scripture any nonsense they can come up.
It sounds like you are sadly ill-informed on eschatological matters. I encourage you to pick up the book referenced in this interview, or "He will Reign forever" or "Premillennialism" by Michael J. Vlach and you will then be able to better represent premillennialism.
The following proves you are correct.
A Millennium Puzzle to solve… Will Christ be conducting funeral services for mortals killed in accidents 500 years after His Second Coming?
The “first resurrection” in Rev. chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation, because the two witnesses are resurrected from the dead in chapter 11. There are two different types of resurrection in John chapter 5. There is a spiritual resurrection from the dead in John 5:24, and a bodily resurrection from the dead in John 5:28-29.
Does your view of the Millennium agree with what Paul said in 2 Thess. 1:7-10, when Paul said Christ returns in "flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not obey the Gospel? The fire comes at the end of Rev. chapter 20.
Does your view agree with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13, when Peter said this earth is going to burn and "dissolve" when He comes as a thief on the day of the Lord? The fire comes at the end of Rev. chapter 20.
Does your view agree with what Paul said in 2 Tim. 4:1, when Paul said both the living and the dead will be judged at His appearing? The time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others is found in Rev. 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible. (This verse also proves the Book of Rev. is not in chronological order.) The judgment of the dead is also found at the end of Rev. chapter 20.
Does your view agree with what Jesus said in Matt. 25:31-46, where He described the judgment of the sheep and goats, which leaves no mortals alive on the planet at the end of the passage? There are also no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Rev. chapter 19.
Does your view agree with Peter in 2 Pet. 2:4, and Jude in Jude 1:6, when they both said wicked angels are already in chains of darkness?
Does your view agree with what John recorded in Rev. 9:1-2, when an angel comes down from heaven with a key to unlock the pit, which means the pit was locked before that time? Are there wicked angels already in the pit in Rev. 9:11? John recorded angels already "bound" in Rev. 9:14. The beast "ascends" out of the pit in Rev. chapter 11, which means the beast was in the pit before that time.
Take all of the above and compare it to the symbolic language found in Rev. chapter 20, and the fact the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and you will have the truth.
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Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation: (book not in chronological order )
Christ returns one time in the future. However, there are several different visions of His return shown from different perspectives in the Book of Revelation.
Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.
He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.
The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.
The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.
He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?
He comes on a horse in chapter 19.
Chapter 20?
Does He come with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1?
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked before that time? Are there wicked angels in the pit in Rev. 9:11? If the beast "ascends" from the pit in Rev. chapter 11, where was the beast before that time?
Does your view agree with Peter in 2 Pet. 2:4, and Jude in Jude 1:6, when they both said wicked angels are already in chains of darkness?
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels were previously bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.
The principle of "Recapitulation" means there are multiple visions of His return.
@@thebiblesojourner I've read Michael J Vlach. The pastor of my church recommended him as he went to Masters Seminary and was on eldership at Grace Community in California. I have the same discussions with him. They are now calling themselves Progressive Dispensationalists, as if that changes anything. His book makes my point. They refer to dispensational hermeneutics as the lens in which to read scripture. It is presupposed then read back into scripture. Also you guys like to muddy the waters with the term premillennialism in the dispensationalism way in contrast to historic premillennialism ( chiliasm), as if they are the same thing and that gives you credibility, given the association with the early church fathers. Not too mention the pre-trib rapture idea, which is nowhere in scripture. Joel Richardson with FAI just did a whole series on the pre-trib fallacy. He exposes the lengths you dispensationalists will go to find the idea in the church fathers writings by misrepresenting what they said. I could go on and on. So much for the assumption I am ill-informed.
@@davidwilliamson3517 You haven't done anything to dispel that assumption. :)
@@ZacharyKlein It doesn't matter anyways. Its impossible to reason with someone that has presupposed their system as true then goes after the fact to find the evidence in scripture. They've spent years becoming emotionally invested in the idea of being raptured away. They are on the special boy list!!
Looks like it might be a decent book to add to- Dispensationalism before Darby and ancient Dispensational truth.
There is it a bit of a boo boo, when one of them refers to the charts of Clarence Larkin as Clarence Mason.
His book Dispensational Truth is certainly the best book on the subject and maybe the best book other than the bible.
This suggests these are dead academics and not bible preachers and is utterly ridiculous to claim some kind of authority on this subject and not be familiar with the works of Clarence Larkin.
Well, there is a Clarence Larkin, but there is also a Clarence Mason, who went to DTS and was dean for many years at Philadelphia College of Bible. I'm not familiar enough with either of their work to say which one they were referring to specifically, but both have work on dispensationalism.
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: They reject the word dispensation entirely, even though it is found at least 4 times in the KJV along with many other allusions to the word dispensation. They are heaping to themselves teachers according to their own lusts. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Many people don’t realize the word dispensation is found pretty clearly in the Bible. Thanks for that reminder about Eph 3:2.
3rd century Pseudo ephriam does not teach any rapture! Fact this is a propaganda lie! Documented here! From Syrian to Latin Pseudo-Ephraem
changed to english then has words changed and other words added (pure evil to do this!!) And made to say this!!!!!!!!!!!
...........For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." . THE original true Syrian text translation to English has nothing to do with RAPTURE FACT!...............IT SAYS.......
"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!
Sure futurism, millennial kingdom and antichrist ideas have always existed in irenaues and others. But pretribulation and “two separate covenants and two separate people” idea, you have to show that these existed early. It doesn’t
Yes, the idea of two new covenants I think was completely novel. Thankfully (in my opinion) that has largely been rejected by dispensationalists. That’s not essential to dispensationalism.
@@thebiblesojourner if it’s a futurist eschatology and maybe there’s a rapture during or a part rapture during the troubled times I’m open. Even before maybe some go. It’s all the other bits and bobs that go with dispensationalism I find novel.
Yes, but to be fair to dispensational discussions, many dispensationalists today reject a lot of the quirky ideas of Darby and Scofield and others. A key component of dispensationalism is that it’s supposed to keep refining itself based on a hermeneutic of pursuing authorial intent. Many have not followed that, especially among the Darby crowd which allegorized and appealed to typology a lot! But at least in its current iteration, it’s more refined and that’s where a lot of opponents make the mistake of arguing against ideas from 100 years ago.
Examples of ideas largely viewed as unimportant and/or rejected would be 7 dispensations, view of church as a heavenly people and Israel as earthly, etc.
@@thebiblesojourner I can go with that yes
“After he come, the believers will be taken to paradise” this is not pre trib eschatology. Rather this agrees with Paul, not Darby or you
Romans 16:25 tells us God's chosen vessel to the gentiles. We need to hear Paul's gospel NOW
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith- to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Rom 16:23-25
With all due respect. I think these gentlemen are earnest and believe the things they are saying, and fully believe in their book.
However, I think they are being intellectually dishonest with themselves.
This is indeed an apologetic for dispensationalism.
If I wrote a book that shows that there are many themes in the Quran that are also in the Bible and were shared by early Church Fathers (such as the idea that there's only one God who created the universe) and called it Muslim thought before Muhammed, I don't think anyone would believe that I wasn't trying to defend Islam.
Yes, the idea of "dispensations" and use of the word "dispensation" in the Bible which refers to separation of time into different eras is something that was around long before.
It's no different from what reformed people refer to as Covenant Theology where the Bible is divided into different dispensations based on the Covenant God was operating under.
Yes, the early church fathers almost universally where Chiliasts (Premillennialists) However, NONE of them wrote anything suggesting a pre-trib rapture.
I will give these guys credit they didn't cross over from intellectual dishonesty to actual premeditated dishonesty like some of the books they reference did.
Those guys tried to suggest that Irenaeus, Justin Martyr and others were pre-trib...and NOBODY who's actually studied their writings and cares about the truth would agree that pre-tribulation theology was consistent with their beliefs.
I really appreciate your interaction on the subject. I don't think the authors would want anything less. In fact, that is a large part of the effort that Fazio and Marsh are trying to accomplish. They simply want to make sure the conversation actually happens. A lot of times people won't even engage on the issue. I'm sure Marsh and Fazio would be happy to hear that people are actually willing to interact with some of the texts they bring forward to support pretribulational rapture. The goal isn't blanket agreement, but discussion. I am not convinced there are clear references in the early church fathers to a pretrib rapture (open to it), but nor are there clear references to many biblical doctrines. However, to say that Darby invented the pretrib rapture is just complete garbage at this point. There is too much evidence out there for someone to say that. That's the biggest part of the conversation that needs to change.
Darby got it from scripture. You have to rightly divide past present and future.
Definitely need to be able to work through those three time periods.
I agree that the newness of a theological system shouldn't determine the correctness of it. But even _if_ dispensationalism originated entirely with Darby, who cares? He was largely right on what he taught. I don't care what the early church fathers said. I don't care about the creeds and confessions of various denominations. I don't care about the ecumenical councils. The only thing I care about is if a system of theology is congruent with the Bible. And dispensationalism, for the most part, is biblically sound. For the record, I'm not a dispensationalist (I'm an adherent of olive tree theology), although I was raised in a dispensationalist environment and I was a dispensationalist by default when I first began studying theology, so I have respect for it. The rabidly antidispensationalist attitude that has recently arisen in the Reformed community (Calvinist, supersessionist, postmillennialist, preterist) have put me on the defensive.
I think you are absolutely correct-all that matters is what the Bible says. I think the main contribution of conversations like this is to try to move the conversation TO Scripture and away from the oft parroted idea that dispensational ideas are novel and should therefore be rejected. Appreciate your well-formulated thoughts!
What stands out is the complete lack of scripture
Well this video is dedicated to the historical question, not the biblical question. But check out some of the other videos on the channel! Or blog posts on the Bible Sojourner. Those have more scripture 😀
No it wasnt !!!
I wouldn’t say that someone like Ben Witherington has a cursory layman’s knowledge of Christian history, and he says everything you hate. As does every other well rounded teacher it appears. And it does lead to bad politics, racism and stupidity actually
Witherington is a gifted scholar, but not in dispensational history. His expertise is more NT, and even there I think he has some weaknesses. Thanks for interacting, although I do wish you were willing to look at the evidence with more of an open mind.
@@thebiblesojourner I honestly am. I’m sort of undecided and have read on it and prayed on it for years, that’s why I wanted a bit more proof of early fathers teaching those very specific ideas which are uniquely dispensational and not just futurist pre-mil, literal millennial which I am totally on board with. The other things seem a little dodgy still and I haven’t seen it in the early writings. You’d have to really show us. Thank you too though
Well I must apologize for incorrectly assessing the situation then. I would highly recommend two books: discovering dispensationalism and dispensationalism before Darby (Watson). Both show that many (if not all) essentials that become known as dispensationalism were around prior to Darby. I think there is no replacing good academically cited books which point out original sources. I also would say the most debated point is a pre tribulational rapture. I think that is understandably tightly contested, but it’s not essential to dispensationalism (though I agree with it). Hope that helps!
@@thebiblesojourner thank you for your answer
If the product of the "system" is to minimize justice in the ME the case in support of it is unsustainable. The pseudo biblical support for Israel (the state), the lack of support for arab Christians, failure to stand for peace while accolytes write books on irrelevancies - all stumbles horribly( while one debates the origins or authorship of a highly dubious system). I have never seen a convincing argument from scripture. What I do see is lightly disguised gnostic thinking. The departure lounge is not the Churches focus. .... Even if you believe in it...
The Christian Era is thousands of years to go. The millennium is now.
Seems like a pretty disappointing millennium 😅
Wow
@@thebiblesojourner You can definitely say that again.
That's depressing
Would like Doug Wilson to answer the question as to why more Christians have been persecuted in the 20th century than any prior century if the church is gaining more power and influence?