@@ByllionBucks the autistic spectrum (he's also got ocd and adhd as well as depression and anxiety i believe), his VA is named damien haas and works for smosh and he talks about it sometimes on the smosh pit channel!
"Maybe you should get better at reading the room, Laios!" "How, Shuro?" This one hit me way too hard. I've always had problems reading and understanding social cues and my dad's always meant well, wanting the best for me, and he told me gently as a kid many times that I should try to get better at things like reading the room or something because I've always excelled in other areas, like with grades; but I've never known HOW, because nobody has ever told me just how to look for these social cues or how to read a room, it's just something I can't get naturally on my own. (I love my parents, but I wish they'd realized smth was up)
I know! And then you try and tell people that you just do not understand and they just...they don't understand. They don't understand how you can't understand. And that's hard because you end up looking like a crazy person
This. So many of these social cues, norms, and expectations seem to come naturally to most people, they're learned intuitively seemingly by most folks. So much so that when you're someone that doesn't just "get" them, no one really seems to understand what it is they need to explain. I've become capable in social situations, such that people find me pleasant, polite, and engaging. But it is absolutely a skill I had to consciously work on. Something built on categorization and analysis. So much so that when I explain that I find most social situations exhausting, even those I enjoy, I really mean it. My brain is never working harder than when I'm negotiating some social encounter whether it's a familiar one or not.
Not only by the fact that Laios could possibly be on the spectrum (which I really don't believe), but also because Shuro expects things to be like in his home, he expects foreigners to get the social norms of is country. Shuro comes from a japanese oriented culture, which is heavy on being extremely reserved so its natural that Laios was going to get Shuro's attitude wrong. Anyone would.
YESSS I LOVE THAT TOO! the sheer frustration in his voice!! The delivery of that single line is amazingggg!! 😍😍😍😍😍I am not autistic, but I have a great friend who is autistic. And this anime is a fantastic representation of someone with autism; it clicks with what I know of my friend and what autism is and I'm happy autistic folks get represented!!! I don't think my friend is a huge anime watcher--they mostly watch American cartoons like The Owl House--But I really wanna recommend this to them! And plus I just LOOOOVE Lios as a character!!❤
Did you try to explain a simple concept to a children? Like, if one ask you what "no" means, how you explain? I can't, the things I understand by myself, I can't explain to others because I don't know how thry work, I kust know. Read the room is a simple task for others becausa they learn that without furter explanations. A important part on having a light grade on autism is understanding the limitations of other people understanding your limitations, you can't expect for them to understand you, so you understand that they don't understand And how do you do that? Making a lot, and a LOT of mistakes. Unfortunally, I don't know better ways of understanding other people.
Idk as an asian person who may have autism, this scene struck a chord to me with not only laios but also shuro as well. Because more often than not I am self aware to try read the room better but alot of times I end up failing and had the same frustration laios had verbalized here
Same, I get some autistic people are pretty mad at Shiro to be borderline racist 💀💀but like, shit, I've been on both sides here. Both and neither are at fault. Just a massive communication failure that isn't just a matter of autism, but also culture
@@justalurker13the culture excuse dies when it comes to how long Toshiro knows Laios and had other people he could have asked for help from. Even with being a doormat, he could have confided in Namari or Chilchuck
@@dejaypage1575 You forget that at the end of the day, Toshiro are still just co-workers with the party and aren't just friends that constantly stay in touch like Falin and Marcille
@@dejaypage1575even Marcille knows how to keep Laios on track by being just a Little Stern with him. She even lectured him a few times and the lecture stuck with him (for the most part) showing that Laios may be awkward and difficult to be around for an extended amount of time but once he's gotten to know you and has been verbally instructed on what is considered annoying to you; Laios actually becomes a very reasonable person.
@@Toki-jm2kb he shares a ton of autistic traits. a couple of them are that he has a special interest (monster biology) and can often misread social cues and say things that come out wrong and he gets misunderstood by people a lot (example: this scene)
@@Toki-jm2kb Others have described it well, but I can give it a try. As far as I know Laios isn’t explicitly stated to be autistic, but I and several others on the autism spectrum feel he has a lot of traits an autistic person may have and find relatable. This clip specifically highlights Laios’ difficulty in picking up on subtle social cues. In Japan in particular, there are a lot of subtle social norms often adhered to in order to be seen as being polite. (For example it’s normal to refuse a present before the other person insists, then accept it). Shuro is smartly designed in very Japanese clothes, so Japanese readers/ viewers are going to understand that when Shuro doesn’t tell Laios he’s trying to take Falin out on a date and doesn’t want Laios to join them- he’s being begrudgingly polite as part of his culture. Laios doesn’t understand that and assumes he’s wanted as a friend unless told otherwise. Eventually Shuro gets so annoyed/exhausted he drops the polite subtlety and Laios is confused as to why he didn’t just say what he meant in the first place. The part where Shuro says “I tried to tell you in ways most people would pick up on” and calling Laios “awkward” is especially relatable. I’m impressed with the writing, and am happy Laios isn’t shown as being in the wrong for being annoying here as media often depicts characters like him. Even Kabru tries to be polite when Laios offers him monster food. Since Kabru lies that he wants to eat it and enjoy it, Laios will continue to gush about it and offer it to him. By contrast Laios gets along easier with characters like Chilchuck and Marcielle because if they don’t like something… they just tell him. As a bonus, he also appears to have a special interest. The intense obsession with specific things to a point where neurotypical people may find ‘too much’ or even annoying. In Laios’ case, it’s monsters. It’s not a perfect explanation, but hopefully I did ok
@@teawitch785 Yeah like when he said if Falin hadn’t been eaten by the dragon, they wouldn’t be eating sorbet. And the others are disgusted by him and tell him to keep his thoughts to himself, even if he’s trying to say clouds have a silver lining. It comes up later on too, but that’s kind of a spoiler for anime viewers
I’m autistic and I’ve been on both ends of this conversation. I’ve been in Toshiro’s shoes, wanting to tell someone they’re upsetting me, but not wanting to hurt them because I know they have no ill intent. I’ve been Laios, not meaning to hurt someone, but not knowing I’m doing it anyway because they never told me. It’s so hard to figure out what to do in social situations, and the nuance in dungeon meshi is so good. Two people with no bad intentions and no ill will (at first) can both end up hurting each other no matter what their intentions are :(
Autistic person here i wish people would just straight up told me they don't wanna be around me anymore instead of expecting me to understand from social cues
It's kinda complicated I'd say especially if only on acquintance level of friendships. Sometimes people just dont wanna dealing with aftermath if they are dealing with the wrong person I guess
What's worse is that some autistic people will take things literally and can't take hints. That's where I also learned the hard truth that I was autistic and wondered why people don't like me. I don't look into their eyes. I look at the side when Im talking. My head is tilted to the side My eyes darts around I can't stop talking I didn't realize I do hand movements that are strange and that I can't take a fucking hint until one of my former so called friend called me a freak😂😂 it hurt but hot dang I already forgot about the feeling
Sincerity is something the world desperately needs more of... neurotypicals might be able to survive without it but they could definitely use a little more of it...
a lot of ppl are cowards and want to hurt ppl they dislike. and another reason why someone wouldnt be straight up is bc theyre afraid of retaliation. like some ppl dont assert their boundaries when they should bc theyve had to deal with ppl who dont react well to that
It’s crazy for the amount of people trying to villainize Toshiro here. If Laois is social awkward, Toshiro is a people-pleaser. It difficult both way. Ig they bias Laios because this comment section is full of people with autism and feel resonate with him more
Honestly yeah what I love most is if you’re curious about a character you can just read the extras and you’ll realize that shuro is laios both the same, both are from noble bloodline, and both are struggling with their families, differences are is laios was the one that speak up about what’s on his mind
I like how they handled this, but a lot of the comments are driving me crazy because the point is neither of them are wrong and people are being too hard on Toshiro. Yes if you have a problem with someone you should say something, yes it is very isolating to be in Laios position. But as an autistic person who’s done the same I think it’s important to note that Toshiro isn’t upset Laios is awkward, he’s upset because he spent forever quietly sitting there through unintentional micro aggressions. And he TRIED to be nice about it and knows it isn’t malicious, that’s why he’s upset that Laios was so genuine and excited! He didn’t want to be the guy going you need to stop asking me these things all the time it’s insensitive. He doesn’t even get called by his actual name, which is something hugely significant and important where he’s from, because this guy messed it up without letting him get a word in to fix it and excitedly introduces him before he can correct anything. Even the people in this comment section aren’t calling him his preferred name. It’s also worth noting that in his culture you are very focused on subtleties and DONT talk about this thing. So to tell Laios he’s making him uncomfortable he would have to do something that he knows will upset him while knowing he doesn’t have any mean intent and go against the way his entire life has been. We get all kinds of fancy descriptions of monster dishes with new invented names. Here it’s “an eastern dish.” And it isn’t an accident either that the writer made Toshiro come from a similar culture as her either. They do this kind of thing a lot in this show, the issues half foots face and the orcs with the elves or the implied by chilchuck elves with half foots since they get locked away by elves specially for doing magic ect. She knows what she’s talking about when she writes this stuff. Obviously Liaos is hurt and rightfully so he has no reason to be okay with this. He’s been insulted and attacked and yeah he was excited for his first turned and has difficulties reading a room and had no malicious intent. That doesn’t mean that he didn’t make things harder and more awkward for Toshiro the entire time they’ve known each other, or that Toshiro shouldn’t be upset and that this isn’t the result of years of built up issues of this sort. It’s just really really well written and it makes me sad to see such a large part of it erased by people because they’re too focused on feeling bad for just one of them. Edit: I also think it's important to note that what we see in the scene isn't even entirely what the arguments about. The whole thing starts after Toshiro DOES tell Liaos to consider the implications of helping Marcille do more black magic after several of his party just got killed by Falin and Liaos slaps him and tells him he needs sleep and food. He didn't start with oh my goood you're annoying he started with this is an active crime people are dead and I need you to think for once. Then when it takes a hard turn into a lecture about how he's bad at self care he's just like oh, we're airing our random dirty laundry and hitting each other okay I have YEARS of build up for this and it's actually relevant because anyone READING A ROOM would know dark magic being fallen into more and more because you messed up with it the first time in your grief in 99% of stories is the villain origin story. Like this scene isn't the full context of how the fights STARTS.
i was trying to find a comment like this. i can understand why people would not like toshiro but his attitude and frustrations towards laios in this scene is kinda understandable, esp when you think about the culture that he was raised in
Furthermore, considering the medieval fantasy context of the work, I think it is normal to think that the people of that world do not have much understanding about neurodivergence and its implications.
Tbf, in some extra comics and lore, Shuro/ Toshiro is described to be quite passive even on his homeland (Japanese equivalent). Non confrontational and barely speak his mind. Which also why Maizuru don't get angry on this, she knew it's good development for him
Wow, I’m autistic, and this is exactly how it goes (typically without punching, of course) when people are angry at us for not reading their social cues. I didn’t think that people were being sensible when they said Laios was autistic, but I definitely see it now. And I love that he called Shuro out on it-Shuro knew Laios was sincere, honest, and did not understand-why didn’t Shuro use his big-boy words? You are a fully verbal adult, and you just described that Laios has a literal disability, aka lacking the ability to pick up on cues. Use your words when disabled people don’t understand you!! Don’t just secretly hate us!
culture and personality need to be taken into account - he's said it himself, he's been raised to be ultra reserved and doesn't know how to express himself enough, to the point where his name (toshiro) was changed to shuro (nurture vs. nature perhaps?) there aren't any characters in this series that don't have a lot of thought and relatability behind their writing, even the antagonists. the main problem here (i think) was just miscommunication (because they don't really know how the other person works or what they want? i'm not good with this but i think this is the reason) if you're interested, once you're finished with the series i recommend you find the extras for laios/toshiro/toshiro's retainers, they're super interesting (why did i write so much) have a good one, enjoy dungeon meshi! :D
Me, too! I know it’s just how many allistic people are, but allistic people are also capable of using their words when we fail to read their minds. It’s sad when people build up all this secret disgust for someone who they fully admit doesn’t know any better! And those people never tell us that they’re mad at us or why. It took me six years one time.
@@cassandrabelyeu2419well to be fair Shuro was brought up as a noble in fantasy Japan so he’s been brought up VERY non-confrontational, plus Laios was his boss and his (maybe) girlfriend’s brother so I get his thinking in not risking making things worse by possibly insulting him. Also I don’t think he actually hated Laios, he was just annoyed by him and burst out now because he just got a fucking bombshell dropped on him on 0 sleep and an empty belly
To be fair he just found out the girl he was in love with was revived with black magic got transformed into a weird half human half dragon bird thing and then brutally murdered a bunch of people infront of him
Yo, how tf did Ryoko Kui knew what I was going through? I’m autistic, and I’ve been on the same situation as Laios just recently. An ex-friend of mine told me that she was tired of me, that I stressed her, and a lot of other hurtful things, while I couldn’t notice any of it because I was too happy with our friendship. That scene represented exactly what happened to me
Before she wrote Dunmeshi, Kui wrote a one shot involving another character who was implied to be autistic. She's never said anything publicly (nor does she have to, it's her business) but folks have guessed she might be on the spectrum herself.
Maybe you should have "read the room" but maybe your ex-friend should have been upfront and just made better boundaries. Seriously, how is it our fault and if rhe other people expect us to do all the work?
I feel that pain too but in the end they weren't really friends either if you can't be blunt and talk about it than why do you expect others to read all social cues when not everyone can? Its deeply unfair to everyone involved in the end its for the best that you parted seperate ways. Because those people aren't friends. They just are people who can't fathom how others can't pick up subtle shit. Communication is better than a lack of it.
Holy shit dude. I normally watch subs and watched all of Dungeon Meshi subbed. I'm used to subs being subpar. Then I found out Damien voiced him and I had to watch it. I was pointed to this scene. Dude freaking nailed this. Incredible.
I hear some people also headcanon Shuro/Toshiro as the eastern high masking autistic perspective where he relies on the strict social cues to navigate which is thrown off on its head with Laios who's culture (assuming more Western) AND personality have more lax social cues. Makes a _very_ interesting perspective when discussing non-white presenting autism.
Laios just wanted to make friends and as for his previous group of "friends" as a gold finder, they were only after money which make sense. But Shuro was only around and tolerated Laios because of Falin, which is down right toxic 😑
@@danmakes2497 I get the whole "my culture" arguement, but like....guy had years to learn to not be a wet doormat. He can't expect people to learn his culture if he never says shit.
I think its worth noting that Toshiro is likely some level of neurodivergent as well, having difficulty expressing himself, and saying how envious he was of Laios' sincerity and directness. He was definitely an asshole here but every single character is dealing with their own brand of autism
Shuro is actually a normal dude that is also timid and shy and he got frustrated with laios because he's always bombastically energetic and had no qualms in expressing his emotions
There is also the extra wrinkle of Toshiro coming from a culture where people are expected to know a billion subtle social cues and he feels discouraged from properly expressing his feelings towards Laois (except when it all bubbled over) due to societal norms/customs.
That's just every repressed Asian with strict households though... especially the part where he said he's envious of Laios because he can just casually express himself however he wants and never have to worry reading the room, an idea so alien to how Toshiro has been raised, aka most average Asian kids' lifestyle.
In my experience nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, hates autistics more than lower support needs/more emotionally adept autistics who have bootstrapped themselves into conformity. Sure, neurotypical society is ableist, but the hate from other autistics is fucking *personal.* That's what I read in this fight. (Ppl make this joke about Kabru too but I think it's more relevant here.)
Autistic person here. I feel for both of them tbh. Yeah, what Toshiro says is very mean. And I absolutely agree that he should have told Laios the truth earlier. But my opinion is that I think he does have a right to be angry, he just should have handled it better than he did. I’ve had similar experiences as Laios. Which is why I feel a little bit more for him. This kind of situation is basically every neurodivergent person’s worst fear. The fear that the people who we think care for us and are our friends (or even family), have actually secretly hated us the whole time and are just waiting for the right moment to yell at us about it. Or even worse, that we deserve it because we haven’t read the situation right and we should have known sooner. This is literally the kind of stuff that leads to RSD (rejection sensitive dysphoria). Misread how people feel about you and get your heart crushed enough times and you start to shift your mentality. You go from trusting everyone and wanting to be everyone’s friend to the exact extreme opposite. Trusting nobody and being terrified of making new friends or forming any kind of new relationships out of fear things will always end up this way. Terrified that you are doomed to just annoy everyone and be alone forever. Terrified that you are unlovable. The first time I watched this scene I was admittedly furious at Toshiro. I HATE it when people don’t tell me how they feel up front. When they wait and let things boil and then explode at me. Because I’m often caught completely off guard by it, and it feels like suddenly getting punched in the gut when you expected a hug. And almost equally as stressful are the times when I DO feel like someone is angry at me, but I’m unsure whether to ask or not because often times I’m wrong, and they’re not mad, but then they GET mad at me for “not trusting them more” and “assuming things about them that I shouldn’t” or “imagining things that never actually happened”. The whole thing sucks because there’s basically 0 winning unless the other person is not only not angry, but is also chill about us being anxious that they might have been angry and they forgive us. And even your closest friends will get upset if you do this sort of thing too many times. However, even with all of this said. I don’t think Toshiro is completely in the wrong either. Especially on a second watch. While I do still think Toshiro should have told Laios sooner, I also feel for him. He doesn’t want to be mean to Laios because he doesn’t REALLY hate him. He thinks he’s annoying and rude and insulting to his culture…but he doesn’t HATE him, because if he truly hated him he wouldn’t have tried not to hurt his feelings for so long. He’s angry now because he let Liaos get away with things that pissed him off for a long time, and if all built up to this moment. But what are you supposed to do in a situation where you really don’t want to upset someone, but you also need to tell them they’re getting in your nerves? Most people just don’t tell them because they want to be polite and kind. And in Toshiro’s culture he was literally taught he should ALWAYS try to be polite and kind, and put others feelings before his own, and avoid conflicts. Expressing how you actually feel is not a bad thing. Sometimes you do need to be a little harsh. The only thing I think Toshiro did wrong is not say something sooner. If he’s just told Laios directly, “Hey don’t do that”, the first time it happened, it probably wouldn’t have continued to happen. Or at least not nearly as often. It’s a complicate situation and a very well written scene. Because there are for sure 2 sides to it. Nobody is 100% right or 100% wrong.
I feel this immensely. I've worked hard to mask/build up my social skills as someone who is in the realm of autism, and the frustration of knowing someone isn't trying to be annoying while also being the most annoying person you can imagine is unbearable. I often empathized with and stood up for people I now recognize as being on the spectrum, but also usually regretted it and felt smothered by their subsequent attempts at friendship and our mutual lack of social skills.
I'm surprised at how many people here consider Shuro to be autistic. Perhaps the English translation "I haven't been able to stand being anywhere near you." is too strong of an expression. The original expression level is something like ``I can eat it, but I don't like it.'' He wants to tell Laios that ``I was putting up with a level of unconscious harassment that I could ignore.''
From someone who's friends and while not autistic, but is someone who is POC and has adhd; it's mostly because POC cultures are much more closed-minded with not only mental illness but also mental disorders. "Everything is just in your head" is basically the gist of it, and you think you're just not trying hard enough because even though you try your best, that isn't enough. Anxiety, depression, autism, adhd; we don't have any of that because "we don't look or act like it." Toshiro's final words of "I envy you" can be that built-up resentment and envy towards white autistic people. They have a chance to explain and be accepted for what they are, but unfortunately, many autistic POC don't. And in their cultures, can even viewed in a gross and villainous light. They are more likely to learn social cues due to what's expected of them; and remember what people say of how not every autistic person is the same? That can be applied here as well. I love Laios and have well done he is, but he is only human and has faults, but sadly, people only blame Toshiro and end up being racist in the end.
@@danmakes2497 you said everythning im thinkjing. toshiro just had to mask his whole life and naturally that brings some tension. beating each others asses is good for both of them
@danmakes2497 oh wow I didn't know that...😮😢 I hope POC like that can express their true selves and get everything they need!! Hope it changes for the better in the future!
Neither is truly to blame but Shuro was definitely the ass in this “id try to tell you in most ways people would pick up on” this phrase alone annoys me not every person is the same assuming most people are is just bad thinking Laios is right if you didn’t want him around you should just tell him especially if you have been around him long enough to know his personality i feel like you should understand he doesn’t pick up on social cues
Yeah, is easy thinking that... Until you are in Shuro's position Is H A R D to tell someone who aren't doing for bad that they are anoying, you think you gonna explode and drop all, but them they make a nice thing for you, call you a friend, or just chill... You didn't say anything because you like the person, not because you think is his duty to understand alone.
i really like the different ways theyre fighting here. its obviously very personal for both of them.Shiro is punching and kicking with more formal training type of look. Laios slaps and pulls hair and puts his fingers in shiros mouth. the anime adds that very older-brother move in. its not in the manga. but Kui did say laios would grab shiros ponytail immediately lol
This is literally the autistic experience bro 😭I've had this exact conversation so many times that I've started telling people to let me know if I'm making them uncomfortable when i meet them
My coworkers told me the same thing and it's my first time working with them. That said, corporate settings present a whole new kind of social cues that newcomers just have to get used to over time. So, I'm not sure if I'm on the spectrum or my coworkers are being sensitive or I'm not used to working in a company....anywho, I know better now 😅 At least they were polite about it
Shuro was damn lucky Falin was gone by then because she would've torn herself from the dragon and fucking curb stomped him for what he said to her brother. I don't think I need to explain how messed up it is that he stewed in this secret hatred for Laios when he liked his sister. She would not have appreciated that one bit. She would've verbally and physically shredded him.
@@rosesweetcharlotte And how well that turned out for him. It might've been genuine at first, but how long until it turned into seething and he was just sitting there stewing in his dislike while pretending to be polite? Laois has a point. If you don't like me, don't be a coward and say it to my face. They're in life and death situations, what Shuro is doing could put everyone in danger. And if at SOME POINT he was just being polite because he was in love with Falin, that's just even more messed up.
@@kaylenvee8150 I know this is about Shuro, but Kabru is also the same. even worse faking to like monster-food while smiling, even does it after just witnessing this very fight. Laios stright out yell if you dont like him say it to his fcae... but the pretty boi just want to sneak himself around, worst of it, is that in the manga he also hit Laios, yet no one said something in the comments ( not here ) about it, instead they were cheering for Kabru... like, ya boi Laios got smack again and ya'll cheering????
@@LucyFerr000 That's likely because of the way their characters were established to the audience and the context of their respective deception. Shuro was supposed to be this noble swordsman, but he's essentially lashing out at Laois for a situation that wasn't his fault and was out of his control, and then using it as an EXCUSE to vent out his PERSONAL issues with who Laois is as a PERSON, and that's unacceptable. The issue isn't necessarily that he hid his animosity (although that's equally messed up because of their relationship to Falin) but that he chose THIS moment to say it. As if his hatred of Laois is now JUSTIFIED because of what happened to Falin, which I remind you wasn't Laois's fault and was mostly out of his control. Kabru is different because we knew pretty early on how calculating and deceptive he is. It was expected of him to lie and fake, BUT he doesn't hate who Laois is as a person. He respects his knowledge on monsters, he just doesn't like having to eat them. THAT'S the difference between them. Kabru dislikes the situation, NOT Laois, because he also understands that they have to eat. He doesn't ever express this idea of anger or that Laois is 'forcing' him to eat.
@@kaylenvee8150 I like your assessment of their characters, but I still think Kabru had no reason at all for hitting Laios, and as you said he doesn't like the situation, then all he had to do was be honest with him. Kabru was butt hurt Laios never acknowledge him since day one he approached him. Lashes out on Laios and confessed his hatred of monsters at such a bad time as Laois and party were in a great hurry. I think that moment with Kabru was a reminiscent of this moment with Shuro. It seems like a parallel, because in that moment Laios had doubts of Kabru wanting to be friends because of what Shuro said here. Shuro and Kabru are the characters that makes Laios question himself. And reading between the lines, Shuro's rage towards Laios wasn't just about his secret hate... I mean they're dealing with Black magic and on his own sister and the possibility of him being imprisoned and other awful things they dont know about. To Shuro it was rash and impulsive thoughtless thing to do to his own sister, because he wasn't there with them. The shock overwhelmed him, even more so when he finally saw her chimera form and how dangerous she became. Chil was right, he was absolutely the worst person to tell. lol
This happened to me with one of my best friends once. Even though it was heartbreaking, he took responsibility for not making his frustration clear earlier (he had his own anxiety about confrontation, which made it harder). We're better friends now. :)
I’m questioning autistic and this scene actually made me cry because I felt so strongly for Laois. 😭 I know Shiro was trying to save his feelings in the short term by not saying anything but I’ve been in Laois’s position and it’s hurts so much more knowing it’s been going on for a long time
Being autistic is hard. It's a good thing that I don't talk a lot with strangers but when I blab I don't shut up even to the point that people listening to me wishes they were deaf hahahahha
Actually its not fair to laios, that the dumbass shuro expect him to read the mood. He should at least told him he was not interested at being friends with him, he practically leading him on and he wants to simp on his sis. That's really rude and too much.
It call culture thing and polite refuse. Honestly most of time I too also didn't go straight bc it is rude and I don't want them to be upset. I only talk straight forward when I decide that ok look like they don't understand the hint and it make trouble now
@@aisouno Polite refuse? How's that culture working out then? They wouldn't be quarreling if Shuro just naturally spoke truthfully, disagreeing without being disagreeable.
@@user-ko5ul7yi1x How often do you let acquaintances into your home? Is it in the doorway, in the living room, can he lie down on the bed without permission, can he eat the contents of the refrigerator without permission? Ordinary humans judge whether someone dislikes someone by looking at their facial expressions. People who don't stop until they are verbally told their limits are broken.
it might be because Falin is soft spoken and Laios just a burst of energy 24/7th, which might be overwhelmng and draining to Shuro, who's also a quite taciturn man. So even if they're both autistic, have same interest and very adventurous and curious people, their personalities are just different.
I used to be like Laois when I was a kid and still am now but when I was a kid and when I was youngish I didn’t know who was my friend and who wasn’t and I still now can’t read social cues and read the room very well… this scene made me cry…
While being on the spectrum is no reason not to exercise your social skills, one thing I find interesting about Toshiro (Shuro) is that he expects everything and everyone to act according to his own culture. I can see someone who struggles to read social cues clashing with someone who has a whole different social enviroment expecting it to be the same everywhere. So an argument was imminent and I really commend the author for her skill to build this. It feels well executed. Both characters are being rude without even realizing it, sad and yet very funny. I can't say for sure if Laios is indeed on the spectrum, though, I see hints but its just not conclusive. To me he is just very into monsters while being naive and blunt. But as I said, a misunderstanding was imminent with this two.
Damien Haas. The only anime I’ve ever enjoyed dub is Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt but he may change my mind. Except it’s fun to watch both in terms of perspectives in wording or phrases.
As a blunt person. I was mad at Shuro too when he said read the room or take a hint. I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU ETIQUETTE BS, SHURO! THIS IS GODDAMN DUNGEON DIVE! NOT JAPANESE COURT! YOU HAVE SOMETHING JUST SAY IT LOUD!
Was looking for damien haas anime clips. Then this popped up... literally last week had a situation like this that ended what i thought was friendship with 2 people.
Fun fact: In one of the manga omakes, Lauos looks into...something, can't remember what, asking what would happen if different people switched gender. Girl-Shuro would have fallen in love with Laios.
I always felt that this fight between Laios and Shiro is that there not hitting each other that hard to actually hurt each other but hard enough to get both of there frustration and points across each other
This is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series.Hands down.I am not autistic but I have a friend who is and lios is my favorite character!!! at the beginning, I thought people were just head cannoning that he was autistic.But the scene essentially confirms it!!! I was thrilled!!!.And I absolutely love that autistic people are getting some representation in japanese animation!!!!
this is one of my favorite scenes and im glad they did it justice! diversity win! Autism v autism violence bc they're both annoying to each toher! toshiro's reticence lost to his hanger.
masking exists and how other autistics live life pretending to be neurotypical, hence he knowing of 'social cues' and how to act a certain way and why people seek to get neurodivirgent vibes from shuro too. Sure Laios is much more obvious and actually is an excellent depiction of someone who has autism but autism is a spectrum, people react or do stuff differently given how severe it is or the place and environment they live on. Hope this helps
I dropped this show just for a while because the writing for Laios seemed reallt weird, like his actions seemed written to just further the story gimmick earing monster's in a dungeon. But then i saw people comparing him to Fred from Mystery Incorporated, the scooby doo show. After that...things made a lot more sense. And after realizing that the behavior of the Dwarf character ALSO made SO MUCH more sense. And now i cant help but see how alot of the characters in this show have some kind of "thing" that effects their behaviors.
huh, im surprised ppl called laios autistic while i, the one that read the manga since like 6 years ago never think like that. even, i somehow saw laios as reliable leader if he's in right situation. But the problem is, that people didnt pick that up and called him autistic, y tho?
Being autistic doesn't mean you're not reliable. It just means you process the world a different way. It's why he has such an encyclopedic knowledge of monsters, but struggles to connect with people. And many people on the spectrum saw those parts of themselves in Laios and relate to his struggles
In my opinion, Shuro's anger isn't quite justified. He's arguing with Falin's OLDER BROTHER, who has more agency in the situation. Screw his relationship with her. I'm not so sure he's gonna be happy once he finds out that the girl he likes is just like her big brother.
Sorry but I dont vibe with shuro's point in the slightest Yeah, telling someone you dont like them can be difficult That in no way shape or form ever even a little bit grants you the right to be mad at them for it YOUR communication failure is YOUR fault and YOUR burden to deal with YES it can be difficult, YES if youre ND or whatever it can be even harder to the point of impossible I can sympathise with that Not with blaming the target of your internal frustrations Not even a little bit Sorry, but no. Never. If you have difficulty expressing yourself to other people, I can sympathise But the consequences of that difficulty remain nobody else's fault but your own, bottom line. Its NEVER their fault, not even a little bit. Never not once ever. You tried being subtle and they didn't get it? Tough. That sucks for you but it still isn't their fault. You don't magically gain the right to be mad at them for that. No sir. You learn to communicate with people or you suffer the consequences of your failure. That's the end of it. Same would go for Laios if he had a problem with Shuro (I dont know, I havent watched the show) If he had a problem he couldnt communicate to Shuro then no matter what happens as a result its never, ever, not one time Shuro's fault. Not even a little bit for a little while.
@@taraungoogle8482 that’s a fantastic point, but it’s also, to me personally, the fact that he thought that he could propose to Falin and take her back to his homeland, away from her culture, away from her friends, away from her brother and away from everything she knew and loved, and she somehow wouldn’t have a problem with it. I only know anime lore rn so I know nothing about Shuro beyond it but the way he can’t seem to see her as a complete person with a life of her own she wouldn’t wanna leave behind….I hate it. Suffer, Churro Man, suffer.
@@TheLastHylianTitan Also, it said that Shuro also left to get reinforcement to rescue Falin which doesn't sound bad but the reason why is because he clearly didn't have faith in Laios and his party's skill and didn't know what they truly are capable of(since he was too focused on simping for Falin then getting to know everyone). And his so call "reinforcement" are all his own simps and they seem very trigger happy because they're always sneaking up on people and threatening them with violence.
@@taraungoogle8482 Damn, you don't have media literacy, huh? But to put it short, BOTH him and Namari left. Hell, Namari didn't even make an effort to come back for Falin, AT ALL. Yet, only he gets the hate for that? I don't hate her, but insane how people just forget that happened. Chilchuck makes a great point in how they didn't have any supplies or money, so coming back as a large group is basically a death sentence. The only reason why they made it this far is because of Senshi.
To be fair, he agrees to it. He's just tired and hungry at this point. Doesn't make it okay but explains; after all, people exploding or having thin patience after not sleeping or eating for long hours happens often.
@@spookydonutghosthouse Suprise, I'm not. :] People just don't watch the literal next scene where they get along afterward and explain why he was like that. Make me shut up, come here and kiss me, I missed ya, dear.
@@Kimoisfinechannel Fair enough it's just everyone in the comments clearly say he has it thats why i was confused. Not to sound rude or disrespectful but not everything needs to be something,i thought he was just a bit socially awkward or more specific he just is this way it's his personality. I just find it annoying when people try to make characters these days something they aren't,not everything is deep or people wish it was that way and try to make people believe it to But it's cool people get Laios and his struggle kinda do to.
The fact that Laios' VA is also in the spectrum makes it even better
Oh shoot, really??? Which spectrum he leaning on to?
@@ByllionBucksDamien Haas is autistic
@@ByllionBucks the autistic spectrum (he's also got ocd and adhd as well as depression and anxiety i believe), his VA is named damien haas and works for smosh and he talks about it sometimes on the smosh pit channel!
@@ByllionBucksocd, adhd and autism
Wait which Voice Actor, the westerner or the Japanese?
They did this scene justice. Trigger must've had a lot of fun animating this dramatic action-packed episode after all the series of mellow ones.
Half the sakuga in this ep was on Falin and the other half was Laios and Shuro bitchfighting
"Maybe you should get better at reading the room, Laios!"
"How, Shuro?"
This one hit me way too hard. I've always had problems reading and understanding social cues and my dad's always meant well, wanting the best for me, and he told me gently as a kid many times that I should try to get better at things like reading the room or something because I've always excelled in other areas, like with grades; but I've never known HOW, because nobody has ever told me just how to look for these social cues or how to read a room, it's just something I can't get naturally on my own. (I love my parents, but I wish they'd realized smth was up)
I know! And then you try and tell people that you just do not understand and they just...they don't understand. They don't understand how you can't understand. And that's hard because you end up looking like a crazy person
This.
So many of these social cues, norms, and expectations seem to come naturally to most people, they're learned intuitively seemingly by most folks. So much so that when you're someone that doesn't just "get" them, no one really seems to understand what it is they need to explain.
I've become capable in social situations, such that people find me pleasant, polite, and engaging.
But it is absolutely a skill I had to consciously work on. Something built on categorization and analysis. So much so that when I explain that I find most social situations exhausting, even those I enjoy, I really mean it.
My brain is never working harder than when I'm negotiating some social encounter whether it's a familiar one or not.
Not only by the fact that Laios could possibly be on the spectrum (which I really don't believe), but also because Shuro expects things to be like in his home, he expects foreigners to get the social norms of is country. Shuro comes from a japanese oriented culture, which is heavy on being extremely reserved so its natural that Laios was going to get Shuro's attitude wrong. Anyone would.
YESSS I LOVE THAT TOO! the sheer frustration in his voice!! The delivery of that single line is amazingggg!! 😍😍😍😍😍I am not autistic, but I have a great friend who is autistic. And this anime is a fantastic representation of someone with autism; it clicks with what I know of my friend and what autism is and I'm happy autistic folks get represented!!! I don't think my friend is a huge anime watcher--they mostly watch American cartoons like The Owl House--But I really wanna recommend this to them! And plus I just LOOOOVE Lios as a character!!❤
Did you try to explain a simple concept to a children? Like, if one ask you what "no" means, how you explain?
I can't, the things I understand by myself, I can't explain to others because I don't know how thry work, I kust know. Read the room is a simple task for others becausa they learn that without furter explanations.
A important part on having a light grade on autism is understanding the limitations of other people understanding your limitations, you can't expect for them to understand you, so you understand that they don't understand
And how do you do that? Making a lot, and a LOT of mistakes. Unfortunally, I don't know better ways of understanding other people.
Idk as an asian person who may have autism, this scene struck a chord to me with not only laios but also shuro as well. Because more often than not I am self aware to try read the room better but alot of times I end up failing and had the same frustration laios had verbalized here
Same, I get some autistic people are pretty mad at Shiro to be borderline racist 💀💀but like, shit, I've been on both sides here. Both and neither are at fault. Just a massive communication failure that isn't just a matter of autism, but also culture
@@justalurker13the culture excuse dies when it comes to how long Toshiro knows Laios and had other people he could have asked for help from. Even with being a doormat, he could have confided in Namari or Chilchuck
@@dejaypage1575 You forget that at the end of the day, Toshiro are still just co-workers with the party and aren't just friends that constantly stay in touch like Falin and Marcille
@@titel9870 and again, he wanted to get into Falin’s pants. So I would assume he’d try to make it work
@@dejaypage1575hell even Falin could've helped him... She IS his sister and would know how to handle him.
0:28 I just now noticed Chilchuck and Namari's hands trying to stop Laios from 3rd wheeling
I had to pause at that part. It got me laughing uncontrollably for some reason 🤣
Marcille was probably behind them cheering Laios on. Hahah
I thought it was senshi but forgot Senshi wasn't present at the time
That honestly showed Chil and Namari actually know how to deal with Laios
@@dejaypage1575even Marcille knows how to keep Laios on track by being just a Little Stern with him. She even lectured him a few times and the lecture stuck with him (for the most part) showing that Laios may be awkward and difficult to be around for an extended amount of time but once he's gotten to know you and has been verbally instructed on what is considered annoying to you; Laios actually becomes a very reasonable person.
Laios is one of the best examples in media of what it’s like to be autistic I’ve ever seen. This scene hits hard for me
Edit: Even if unintentional
i get it but can you elaborate more?
@@Toki-jm2kb he shares a ton of autistic traits. a couple of them are that he has a special interest (monster biology) and can often misread social cues and say things that come out wrong and he gets misunderstood by people a lot (example: this scene)
@@Toki-jm2kb Others have described it well, but I can give it a try. As far as I know Laios isn’t explicitly stated to be autistic, but I and several others on the autism spectrum feel he has a lot of traits an autistic person may have and find relatable.
This clip specifically highlights Laios’ difficulty in picking up on subtle social cues. In Japan in particular, there are a lot of subtle social norms often adhered to in order to be seen as being polite. (For example it’s normal to refuse a present before the other person insists, then accept it).
Shuro is smartly designed in very Japanese clothes, so Japanese readers/ viewers are going to understand that when Shuro doesn’t tell Laios he’s trying to take Falin out on a date and doesn’t want Laios to join them- he’s being begrudgingly polite as part of his culture. Laios doesn’t understand that and assumes he’s wanted as a friend unless told otherwise. Eventually Shuro gets so annoyed/exhausted he drops the polite subtlety and Laios is confused as to why he didn’t just say what he meant in the first place. The part where Shuro says “I tried to tell you in ways most people would pick up on” and calling Laios “awkward” is especially relatable. I’m impressed with the writing, and am happy Laios isn’t shown as being in the wrong for being annoying here as media often depicts characters like him.
Even Kabru tries to be polite when Laios offers him monster food. Since Kabru lies that he wants to eat it and enjoy it, Laios will continue to gush about it and offer it to him.
By contrast Laios gets along easier with characters like Chilchuck and Marcielle because if they don’t like something… they just tell him.
As a bonus, he also appears to have a special interest. The intense obsession with specific things to a point where neurotypical people may find ‘too much’ or even annoying. In Laios’ case, it’s monsters.
It’s not a perfect explanation, but hopefully I did ok
@@teawitch785 Yeah like when he said if Falin hadn’t been eaten by the dragon, they wouldn’t be eating sorbet. And the others are disgusted by him and tell him to keep his thoughts to himself, even if he’s trying to say clouds have a silver lining. It comes up later on too, but that’s kind of a spoiler for anime viewers
seriously, 0:39 is the single most seen I've ever felt in autism portrayal ever.
I’m autistic and I’ve been on both ends of this conversation. I’ve been in Toshiro’s shoes, wanting to tell someone they’re upsetting me, but not wanting to hurt them because I know they have no ill intent. I’ve been Laios, not meaning to hurt someone, but not knowing I’m doing it anyway because they never told me. It’s so hard to figure out what to do in social situations, and the nuance in dungeon meshi is so good. Two people with no bad intentions and no ill will (at first) can both end up hurting each other no matter what their intentions are :(
Autistic person here i wish people would just straight up told me they don't wanna be around me anymore instead of expecting me to understand from social cues
It's kinda complicated I'd say especially if only on acquintance level of friendships. Sometimes people just dont wanna dealing with aftermath if they are dealing with the wrong person I guess
What's worse is that some autistic people will take things literally and can't take hints. That's where I also learned the hard truth that I was autistic and wondered why people don't like me.
I don't look into their eyes.
I look at the side when Im talking.
My head is tilted to the side
My eyes darts around
I can't stop talking
I didn't realize I do hand movements that are strange and that I can't take a fucking hint until one of my former so called friend called me a freak😂😂 it hurt but hot dang I already forgot about the feeling
agreed tho, I wish people have the gut to tell me fuck off instead of leaving me on read.
Sincerity is something the world desperately needs more of... neurotypicals might be able to survive without it but they could definitely use a little more of it...
a lot of ppl are cowards and want to hurt ppl they dislike. and another reason why someone wouldnt be straight up is bc theyre afraid of retaliation. like some ppl dont assert their boundaries when they should bc theyve had to deal with ppl who dont react well to that
Shuro is just another brand of neurodivergent guys.
agree, would make sense considering that he'd have to repress it due to being a noble.
for real!
All Dunmeshi characters are fueled by autism in their own unique ways.
It’s crazy for the amount of people trying to villainize Toshiro here. If Laois is social awkward, Toshiro is a people-pleaser. It difficult both way. Ig they bias Laios because this comment section is full of people with autism and feel resonate with him more
Honestly yeah what I love most is if you’re curious about a character you can just read the extras and you’ll realize that shuro is laios both the same, both are from noble bloodline, and both are struggling with their families, differences are is laios was the one that speak up about what’s on his mind
SpongeBob and Squidward having a fistfight.
Squidward and Patrick actually had a fistfight at the bottom of a well in one episode!😂
i laughed so hard i started coughing
It’s the scene! Damien living his dream combining the two things he loves most: anime voice-acting and talking about being autistic! :D
I like how they handled this, but a lot of the comments are driving me crazy because the point is neither of them are wrong and people are being too hard on Toshiro.
Yes if you have a problem with someone you should say something, yes it is very isolating to be in Laios position. But as an autistic person who’s done the same I think it’s important to note that Toshiro isn’t upset Laios is awkward, he’s upset because he spent forever quietly sitting there through unintentional micro aggressions. And he TRIED to be nice about it and knows it isn’t malicious, that’s why he’s upset that Laios was so genuine and excited! He didn’t want to be the guy going you need to stop asking me these things all the time it’s insensitive.
He doesn’t even get called by his actual name, which is something hugely significant and important where he’s from, because this guy messed it up without letting him get a word in to fix it and excitedly introduces him before he can correct anything. Even the people in this comment section aren’t calling him his preferred name.
It’s also worth noting that in his culture you are very focused on subtleties and DONT talk about this thing. So to tell Laios he’s making him uncomfortable he would have to do something that he knows will upset him while knowing he doesn’t have any mean intent and go against the way his entire life has been.
We get all kinds of fancy descriptions of monster dishes with new invented names. Here it’s “an eastern dish.” And it isn’t an accident either that the writer made Toshiro come from a similar culture as her either. They do this kind of thing a lot in this show, the issues half foots face and the orcs with the elves or the implied by chilchuck elves with half foots since they get locked away by elves specially for doing magic ect. She knows what she’s talking about when she writes this stuff.
Obviously Liaos is hurt and rightfully so he has no reason to be okay with this. He’s been insulted and attacked and yeah he was excited for his first turned and has difficulties reading a room and had no malicious intent. That doesn’t mean that he didn’t make things harder and more awkward for Toshiro the entire time they’ve known each other, or that Toshiro shouldn’t be upset and that this isn’t the result of years of built up issues of this sort.
It’s just really really well written and it makes me sad to see such a large part of it erased by people because they’re too focused on feeling bad for just one of them.
Edit: I also think it's important to note that what we see in the scene isn't even entirely what the arguments about. The whole thing starts after Toshiro DOES tell Liaos to consider the implications of helping Marcille do more black magic after several of his party just got killed by Falin and Liaos slaps him and tells him he needs sleep and food. He didn't start with oh my goood you're annoying he started with this is an active crime people are dead and I need you to think for once. Then when it takes a hard turn into a lecture about how he's bad at self care he's just like oh, we're airing our random dirty laundry and hitting each other okay I have YEARS of build up for this and it's actually relevant because anyone READING A ROOM would know dark magic being fallen into more and more because you messed up with it the first time in your grief in 99% of stories is the villain origin story. Like this scene isn't the full context of how the fights STARTS.
i was trying to find a comment like this. i can understand why people would not like toshiro but his attitude and frustrations towards laios in this scene is kinda understandable, esp when you think about the culture that he was raised in
Furthermore, considering the medieval fantasy context of the work, I think it is normal to think that the people of that world do not have much understanding about neurodivergence and its implications.
Tbf, in some extra comics and lore, Shuro/ Toshiro is described to be quite passive even on his homeland (Japanese equivalent). Non confrontational and barely speak his mind.
Which also why Maizuru don't get angry on this, she knew it's good development for him
Shuro's still a bitch in everyone's eyes
@@IRL_randalivory Toshiro's culture or Laois
Wow, I’m autistic, and this is exactly how it goes (typically without punching, of course) when people are angry at us for not reading their social cues.
I didn’t think that people were being sensible when they said Laios was autistic, but I definitely see it now.
And I love that he called Shuro out on it-Shuro knew Laios was sincere, honest, and did not understand-why didn’t Shuro use his big-boy words?
You are a fully verbal adult, and you just described that Laios has a literal disability, aka lacking the ability to pick up on cues.
Use your words when disabled people don’t understand you!!
Don’t just secretly hate us!
Yeah pretty much thats the communication problem from the start 😅😅😅😅
Shuro is japanese. Japs don't do that. Its something of their culture that can be criticized.
Hey man let’s not pretend Shuro is some social sauvant bro asked a woman to marry him frame 1 lmao
culture and personality need to be taken into account - he's said it himself, he's been raised to be ultra reserved and doesn't know how to express himself enough, to the point where his name (toshiro) was changed to shuro (nurture vs. nature perhaps?)
there aren't any characters in this series that don't have a lot of thought and relatability behind their writing, even the antagonists. the main problem here (i think) was just miscommunication (because they don't really know how the other person works or what they want? i'm not good with this but i think this is the reason)
if you're interested, once you're finished with the series i recommend you find the extras for laios/toshiro/toshiro's retainers, they're super interesting
(why did i write so much) have a good one, enjoy dungeon meshi! :D
@@iamafoolyesiam Oh, I know that a lot of thought and relatability went into his writing.
It’s almost too realistic.
As a neurodivergent person shuro made me sooo mad with this scene lol
oooohhh yea. It definitenly hit a chord with me.
Me, too!
I know it’s just how many allistic people are, but allistic people are also capable of using their words when we fail to read their minds.
It’s sad when people build up all this secret disgust for someone who they fully admit doesn’t know any better!
And those people never tell us that they’re mad at us or why.
It took me six years one time.
@@cassandrabelyeu2419well to be fair Shuro was brought up as a noble in fantasy Japan so he’s been brought up VERY non-confrontational, plus Laios was his boss and his (maybe) girlfriend’s brother so I get his thinking in not risking making things worse by possibly insulting him. Also I don’t think he actually hated Laios, he was just annoyed by him and burst out now because he just got a fucking bombshell dropped on him on 0 sleep and an empty belly
To be fair he just found out the girl he was in love with was revived with black magic got transformed into a weird half human half dragon bird thing and then brutally murdered a bunch of people infront of him
What is neurodivergent?
This is an incredibly well animated bad fight.
Yo, how tf did Ryoko Kui knew what I was going through?
I’m autistic, and I’ve been on the same situation as Laios just recently. An ex-friend of mine told me that she was tired of me, that I stressed her, and a lot of other hurtful things, while I couldn’t notice any of it because I was too happy with our friendship. That scene represented exactly what happened to me
Before she wrote Dunmeshi, Kui wrote a one shot involving another character who was implied to be autistic. She's never said anything publicly (nor does she have to, it's her business) but folks have guessed she might be on the spectrum herself.
Maybe you should have "read the room" but maybe your ex-friend should have been upfront and just made better boundaries. Seriously, how is it our fault and if rhe other people expect us to do all the work?
I feel that pain too but in the end they weren't really friends either if you can't be blunt and talk about it than why do you expect others to read all social cues when not everyone can? Its deeply unfair to everyone involved in the end its for the best that you parted seperate ways. Because those people aren't friends. They just are people who can't fathom how others can't pick up subtle shit. Communication is better than a lack of it.
@anonymouspotato3453 ella no es autista y laios no es autista.
Holy shit dude. I normally watch subs and watched all of Dungeon Meshi subbed. I'm used to subs being subpar. Then I found out Damien voiced him and I had to watch it. I was pointed to this scene. Dude freaking nailed this. Incredible.
RIGHT!!!! his voice acting here is INCREDIBLEEEEE!!!! this is one of the best dubs I've heard in probably 10 years!!!!
I hear some people also headcanon Shuro/Toshiro as the eastern high masking autistic perspective where he relies on the strict social cues to navigate which is thrown off on its head with Laios who's culture (assuming more Western) AND personality have more lax social cues.
Makes a _very_ interesting perspective when discussing non-white presenting autism.
I wouldn't say Western standards are more lax. It's just that in the west you're more likely to be dehumanized and othered than silently tolerated.
Non... Wait, what?
I know is a spectrum, but the spectrum has colours now?
Laios must have had hard time finding friends, only to meet or group up with people who hate him or are disgusted by him.
Laios just wanted to make friends and as for his previous group of "friends" as a gold finder, they were only after money which make sense. But Shuro was only around and tolerated Laios because of Falin, which is down right toxic 😑
@@taraungoogle8482 He was part of the team before because Laois dragged him in as it's revealed.
@@danmakes2497 But he only stayed as long as he did because of Falin, nothing more or less
It rather says a lot that his best friend was his younger sister
@@danmakes2497 I get the whole "my culture" arguement, but like....guy had years to learn to not be a wet doormat. He can't expect people to learn his culture if he never says shit.
I think its worth noting that Toshiro is likely some level of neurodivergent as well, having difficulty expressing himself, and saying how envious he was of Laios' sincerity and directness. He was definitely an asshole here but every single character is dealing with their own brand of autism
No, I think he's just frustrated. He knows that Laios is a good person and feels bad for being mad at a guy who hasn't actually don't anything wrong.
Shuro is actually a normal dude that is also timid and shy and he got frustrated with laios because he's always bombastically energetic and had no qualms in expressing his emotions
There is also the extra wrinkle of Toshiro coming from a culture where people are expected to know a billion subtle social cues and he feels discouraged from properly expressing his feelings towards Laois (except when it all bubbled over) due to societal norms/customs.
That's just every repressed Asian with strict households though... especially the part where he said he's envious of Laios because he can just casually express himself however he wants and never have to worry reading the room, an idea so alien to how Toshiro has been raised, aka most average Asian kids' lifestyle.
In my experience nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, hates autistics more than lower support needs/more emotionally adept autistics who have bootstrapped themselves into conformity. Sure, neurotypical society is ableist, but the hate from other autistics is fucking *personal.* That's what I read in this fight. (Ppl make this joke about Kabru too but I think it's more relevant here.)
Autistic person here.
I feel for both of them tbh.
Yeah, what Toshiro says is very mean. And I absolutely agree that he should have told Laios the truth earlier. But my opinion is that I think he does have a right to be angry, he just should have handled it better than he did.
I’ve had similar experiences as Laios. Which is why I feel a little bit more for him. This kind of situation is basically every neurodivergent person’s worst fear. The fear that the people who we think care for us and are our friends (or even family), have actually secretly hated us the whole time and are just waiting for the right moment to yell at us about it. Or even worse, that we deserve it because we haven’t read the situation right and we should have known sooner. This is literally the kind of stuff that leads to RSD (rejection sensitive dysphoria). Misread how people feel about you and get your heart crushed enough times and you start to shift your mentality. You go from trusting everyone and wanting to be everyone’s friend to the exact extreme opposite. Trusting nobody and being terrified of making new friends or forming any kind of new relationships out of fear things will always end up this way. Terrified that you are doomed to just annoy everyone and be alone forever. Terrified that you are unlovable.
The first time I watched this scene I was admittedly furious at Toshiro. I HATE it when people don’t tell me how they feel up front. When they wait and let things boil and then explode at me. Because I’m often caught completely off guard by it, and it feels like suddenly getting punched in the gut when you expected a hug. And almost equally as stressful are the times when I DO feel like someone is angry at me, but I’m unsure whether to ask or not because often times I’m wrong, and they’re not mad, but then they GET mad at me for “not trusting them more” and “assuming things about them that I shouldn’t” or “imagining things that never actually happened”. The whole thing sucks because there’s basically 0 winning unless the other person is not only not angry, but is also chill about us being anxious that they might have been angry and they forgive us. And even your closest friends will get upset if you do this sort of thing too many times.
However, even with all of this said. I don’t think Toshiro is completely in the wrong either. Especially on a second watch. While I do still think Toshiro should have told Laios sooner, I also feel for him. He doesn’t want to be mean to Laios because he doesn’t REALLY hate him. He thinks he’s annoying and rude and insulting to his culture…but he doesn’t HATE him, because if he truly hated him he wouldn’t have tried not to hurt his feelings for so long. He’s angry now because he let Liaos get away with things that pissed him off for a long time, and if all built up to this moment. But what are you supposed to do in a situation where you really don’t want to upset someone, but you also need to tell them they’re getting in your nerves? Most people just don’t tell them because they want to be polite and kind. And in Toshiro’s culture he was literally taught he should ALWAYS try to be polite and kind, and put others feelings before his own, and avoid conflicts. Expressing how you actually feel is not a bad thing. Sometimes you do need to be a little harsh. The only thing I think Toshiro did wrong is not say something sooner. If he’s just told Laios directly, “Hey don’t do that”, the first time it happened, it probably wouldn’t have continued to happen. Or at least not nearly as often.
It’s a complicate situation and a very well written scene. Because there are for sure 2 sides to it. Nobody is 100% right or 100% wrong.
Who would win?
Timid trad Japanese young master
vs
Tism himbo
(both of them have their equal faults imo)
Tism himbo, cause a good night’s sleep and 3 meals a day wins the day.
One was on the verge of death while the other was eating magic meals
I feel this immensely. I've worked hard to mask/build up my social skills as someone who is in the realm of autism, and the frustration of knowing someone isn't trying to be annoying while also being the most annoying person you can imagine is unbearable. I often empathized with and stood up for people I now recognize as being on the spectrum, but also usually regretted it and felt smothered by their subsequent attempts at friendship and our mutual lack of social skills.
I'm surprised at how many people here consider Shuro to be autistic. Perhaps the English translation "I haven't been able to stand being anywhere near you." is too strong of an expression. The original expression level is something like ``I can eat it, but I don't like it.'' He wants to tell Laios that ``I was putting up with a level of unconscious harassment that I could ignore.''
From someone who's friends and while not autistic, but is someone who is POC and has adhd; it's mostly because POC cultures are much more closed-minded with not only mental illness but also mental disorders.
"Everything is just in your head" is basically the gist of it, and you think you're just not trying hard enough because even though you try your best, that isn't enough. Anxiety, depression, autism, adhd; we don't have any of that because "we don't look or act like it."
Toshiro's final words of "I envy you" can be that built-up resentment and envy towards white autistic people. They have a chance to explain and be accepted for what they are, but unfortunately, many autistic POC don't. And in their cultures, can even viewed in a gross and villainous light.
They are more likely to learn social cues due to what's expected of them; and remember what people say of how not every autistic person is the same? That can be applied here as well.
I love Laios and have well done he is, but he is only human and has faults, but sadly, people only blame Toshiro and end up being racist in the end.
@@danmakes2497 you said everythning im thinkjing. toshiro just had to mask his whole life and naturally that brings some tension. beating each others asses is good for both of them
貴方のいう通りです。
字幕の表現が強すぎます。
シュローのライオスに対する感情は「時々、迷惑なところが受け入れるのが難しかった」くらいの表現です。
@danmakes2497 oh wow I didn't know that...😮😢 I hope POC like that can express their true selves and get everything they need!! Hope it changes for the better in the future!
Neither is truly to blame but Shuro was definitely the ass in this “id try to tell you in most ways people would pick up on” this phrase alone annoys me not every person is the same assuming most people are is just bad thinking Laios is right if you didn’t want him around you should just tell him especially if you have been around him long enough to know his personality i feel like you should understand he doesn’t pick up on social cues
Yeah, is easy thinking that... Until you are in Shuro's position
Is H A R D to tell someone who aren't doing for bad that they are anoying, you think you gonna explode and drop all, but them they make a nice thing for you, call you a friend, or just chill... You didn't say anything because you like the person, not because you think is his duty to understand alone.
THE GIRLS ARE FIGHTING
The way his family and peers treated him in his dream hit too close to home
That reminds me, Laios' Parents are not even looking for them... Like are they dead? becoz there's added bits about them.
I like how its two internet personalities just duking it out in anime form.
And proZD is senshi
@@gilly_axolotl But he wasn't slugging at the :V
i really like the different ways theyre fighting here. its obviously very personal for both of them.Shiro is punching and kicking with more formal training type of look. Laios slaps and pulls hair and puts his fingers in shiros mouth. the anime adds that very older-brother move in. its not in the manga. but Kui did say laios would grab shiros ponytail immediately lol
missing the best part, the batbitchslap
This is literally the autistic experience bro 😭I've had this exact conversation so many times that I've started telling people to let me know if I'm making them uncomfortable when i meet them
My coworkers told me the same thing and it's my first time working with them. That said, corporate settings present a whole new kind of social cues that newcomers just have to get used to over time. So, I'm not sure if I'm on the spectrum or my coworkers are being sensitive or I'm not used to working in a company....anywho, I know better now 😅 At least they were polite about it
Watching Laios beat the shit out of Shuro was one of the most satisfying parts in the whole show imo
Shuro was damn lucky Falin was gone by then because she would've torn herself from the dragon and fucking curb stomped him for what he said to her brother. I don't think I need to explain how messed up it is that he stewed in this secret hatred for Laios when he liked his sister. She would not have appreciated that one bit. She would've verbally and physically shredded him.
I don't think it was just about Falin. He genuinely wanted to be polite
@@rosesweetcharlotte And how well that turned out for him. It might've been genuine at first, but how long until it turned into seething and he was just sitting there stewing in his dislike while pretending to be polite? Laois has a point. If you don't like me, don't be a coward and say it to my face. They're in life and death situations, what Shuro is doing could put everyone in danger. And if at SOME POINT he was just being polite because he was in love with Falin, that's just even more messed up.
@@kaylenvee8150 I know this is about Shuro, but Kabru is also the same. even worse faking to like monster-food while smiling, even does it after just witnessing this very fight. Laios stright out yell if you dont like him say it to his fcae... but the pretty boi just want to sneak himself around, worst of it, is that in the manga he also hit Laios, yet no one said something in the comments ( not here ) about it, instead they were cheering for Kabru... like, ya boi Laios got smack again and ya'll cheering????
@@LucyFerr000 That's likely because of the way their characters were established to the audience and the context of their respective deception.
Shuro was supposed to be this noble swordsman, but he's essentially lashing out at Laois for a situation that wasn't his fault and was out of his control, and then using it as an EXCUSE to vent out his PERSONAL issues with who Laois is as a PERSON, and that's unacceptable. The issue isn't necessarily that he hid his animosity (although that's equally messed up because of their relationship to Falin) but that he chose THIS moment to say it. As if his hatred of Laois is now JUSTIFIED because of what happened to Falin, which I remind you wasn't Laois's fault and was mostly out of his control.
Kabru is different because we knew pretty early on how calculating and deceptive he is. It was expected of him to lie and fake, BUT he doesn't hate who Laois is as a person. He respects his knowledge on monsters, he just doesn't like having to eat them. THAT'S the difference between them. Kabru dislikes the situation, NOT Laois, because he also understands that they have to eat. He doesn't ever express this idea of anger or that Laois is 'forcing' him to eat.
@@kaylenvee8150
I like your assessment of their characters, but I still think Kabru had no reason at all for hitting Laios, and as you said he doesn't like the situation, then all he had to do was be honest with him. Kabru was butt hurt Laios never acknowledge him since day one he approached him.
Lashes out on Laios and confessed his hatred of monsters at such a bad time as Laois and party were in a great hurry.
I think that moment with Kabru was a reminiscent of this moment with Shuro. It seems like a parallel, because in that moment Laios had doubts of Kabru wanting to be friends because of what Shuro said here. Shuro and Kabru are the characters that makes Laios question himself.
And reading between the lines, Shuro's rage towards Laios wasn't just about his secret hate... I mean they're dealing with Black magic and on his own sister and the possibility of him being imprisoned and other awful things they dont know about. To Shuro it was rash and impulsive thoughtless thing to do to his own sister, because he wasn't there with them. The shock overwhelmed him, even more so when he finally saw her chimera form and how dangerous she became. Chil was right, he was absolutely the worst person to tell. lol
ADHD vs AUTISM
THE FIGHT
ADHD vs Autism vs Bipolar
This happened to me with one of my best friends once. Even though it was heartbreaking, he took responsibility for not making his frustration clear earlier (he had his own anxiety about confrontation, which made it harder). We're better friends now. :)
aww those are the best relationships! conflicts and then resolution leading to an even better relationship!
I’m questioning autistic and this scene actually made me cry because I felt so strongly for Laois. 😭 I know Shiro was trying to save his feelings in the short term by not saying anything but I’ve been in Laois’s position and it’s hurts so much more knowing it’s been going on for a long time
As a neurodivergent, Laios beating Shuro and winning feels like a victory for all of us
Enough sleep and 3 meals a day can help you get through any challenge.
Not really. Just watching two guys trying to communicate with one another and sucking at it.
I think what I love most about Laois is that he’s voiced by Damian Haas, an autistic king playing an autistic king XD
Being autistic is hard. It's a good thing that I don't talk a lot with strangers but when I blab I don't shut up even to the point that people listening to me wishes they were deaf hahahahha
Despite the bickering, the two still care.
Actually its not fair to laios, that the dumbass shuro expect him to read the mood. He should at least told him he was not interested at being friends with him, he practically leading him on and he wants to simp on his sis. That's really rude and too much.
It call culture thing and polite refuse. Honestly most of time I too also didn't go straight bc it is rude and I don't want them to be upset. I only talk straight forward when I decide that ok look like they don't understand the hint and it make trouble now
@@aisouno Polite refuse? How's that culture working out then? They wouldn't be quarreling if Shuro just naturally spoke truthfully, disagreeing without being disagreeable.
To be fair, shuro doesnt know laois is the way he is. We cant be entitled and expect people to know we have disabilities then get mad.
You don't know how much Japanese/Asian people relied on specific social cues...
@@user-ko5ul7yi1x How often do you let acquaintances into your home? Is it in the doorway, in the living room, can he lie down on the bed without permission, can he eat the contents of the refrigerator without permission? Ordinary humans judge whether someone dislikes someone by looking at their facial expressions. People who don't stop until they are verbally told their limits are broken.
to make this even better is the damian haas of smosh and disney fame is the english VA and he’s actually autistic; i love both him and laios 🥺💕
Love how in this argument, Laois still brings the matter of food and eating HAHAHA
They fight so cute
It pretty much devolved into a sibling fight, which I find immensely funny.
I think it’s funny how shuro is completely in love for Falin but can’t stand Laois even tho they’re the same kind of autistic.
it might be because Falin is soft spoken and Laios just a burst of energy 24/7th, which might be overwhelmng and draining to Shuro, who's also a quite taciturn man. So even if they're both autistic, have same interest and very adventurous and curious people, their personalities are just different.
@@LucyFerr000 Nah, it's because she's a pretty lady.
The traits that seem annoying in Laois can easily be interpreted as "alluringly feminine" in a pretty woman. It's a matter of seeing it differently.
Could also be because laios is extroverted were falin is introverted
Battle of the autism
autism v autism violence
I used to be like Laois when I was a kid and still am now but when I was a kid and when I was youngish I didn’t know who was my friend and who wasn’t and I still now can’t read social cues and read the room very well… this scene made me cry…
While being on the spectrum is no reason not to exercise your social skills, one thing I find interesting about Toshiro (Shuro) is that he expects everything and everyone to act according to his own culture. I can see someone who struggles to read social cues clashing with someone who has a whole different social enviroment expecting it to be the same everywhere. So an argument was imminent and I really commend the author for her skill to build this. It feels well executed. Both characters are being rude without even realizing it, sad and yet very funny.
I can't say for sure if Laios is indeed on the spectrum, though, I see hints but its just not conclusive. To me he is just very into monsters while being naive and blunt. But as I said, a misunderstanding was imminent with this two.
The voice actor for Laios is actually Autistic and has ADHD so the representation is so real ❤️
Shuro doesn’t hate Laios, but is pretty annoyed with him.
Damien Haas. The only anime I’ve ever enjoyed dub is Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt but he may change my mind. Except it’s fun to watch both in terms of perspectives in wording or phrases.
Yu Yu hakusho dub is great
As a blunt person. I was mad at Shuro too when he said read the room or take a hint. I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU ETIQUETTE BS, SHURO! THIS IS GODDAMN DUNGEON DIVE! NOT JAPANESE COURT! YOU HAVE SOMETHING JUST SAY IT LOUD!
I feel like Laios is my spirit animal.
It also show how good of a friend Shayne is to Damien.
Was looking for damien haas anime clips. Then this popped up... literally last week had a situation like this that ended what i thought was friendship with 2 people.
Fun fact: In one of the manga omakes, Lauos looks into...something, can't remember what, asking what would happen if different people switched gender. Girl-Shuro would have fallen in love with Laios.
the way everyone is a little bit neurodivergent in this show is great
Hmm… is Chillchuck the straight man? He seems like the most well adjusted by far.
@@guardsmenedwin6213 he's the token alcoholic
@@halcyon.x … fair enough, he definitely is.
And this is how friendships form lol
Stop shaming Autistic heroes man!!
"Laios, just so you know, that WAS a POWER MOVE."
Cool little fact: Damien Haas, Laios's voice actor in the English dub, is also autistic.
autism struggle vs culture struggle. hits pretty close
I always felt that this fight between Laios and Shiro is that there not hitting each other that hard to actually hurt each other but hard enough to get both of there frustration and points across each other
Knight vs Samurai 🤣🤣🤣
This is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series.Hands down.I am not autistic but I have a friend who is and lios is my favorite character!!! at the beginning, I thought people were just head cannoning that he was autistic.But the scene essentially confirms it!!! I was thrilled!!!.And I absolutely love that autistic people are getting some representation in japanese animation!!!!
Inside of me there are two wolfs, these are the wolfs.
this is one of my favorite scenes and im glad they did it justice! diversity win! Autism v autism violence bc they're both annoying to each toher! toshiro's reticence lost to his hanger.
I'm starting to see why people keep saying that Laios is autistic coded.
A better bro fight than anything goku and vegeta have ever had
Everyone is saying how Toshiro is autistic too but I dont't see how. Its more obvious with Laios to me.
masking exists and how other autistics live life pretending to be neurotypical, hence he knowing of 'social cues' and how to act a certain way and why people seek to get neurodivirgent vibes from shuro too. Sure Laios is much more obvious and actually is an excellent depiction of someone who has autism but autism is a spectrum, people react or do stuff differently given how severe it is or the place and environment they live on. Hope this helps
I dropped this show just for a while because the writing for Laios seemed reallt weird, like his actions seemed written to just further the story gimmick earing monster's in a dungeon.
But then i saw people comparing him to Fred from Mystery Incorporated, the scooby doo show. After that...things made a lot more sense.
And after realizing that the behavior of the Dwarf character ALSO made SO MUCH more sense.
And now i cant help but see how alot of the characters in this show have some kind of "thing" that effects their behaviors.
Me being on the autism spectrum I have to say this:
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
How tf did Damien from Smosh get an anime role?
The disagreement brothers
Whenever I see someone defend Shuro I want to scream
For Honor gameplay:
t's a common example of a comic book protagonist's personality.
to me this is autism guy who cant mask vs autism guy who has to mask all the time
Huh, I always watch the original dub on default, but hearing this argument in a language that I can directly understand made it so ... visceral.
I would like to join laios and senshi party lol
Autism to autism argument
Delicious in Dungeon: A show that decided to cast an autistic person in a role that's probably autistic. What an inspired choice...
I find it funny that Shuro hates Laios not cause Laios is annoying but cause Laios is nice and sincere. It also makes Shuro look more pathetic
Shuro really doesn’t hate Laios. Dude still cares. We especially see that near the end of the manga
guys nvm, the author says laios is not autistic 😔
huh, im surprised ppl called laios autistic while i, the one that read the manga since like 6 years ago never think like that.
even, i somehow saw laios as reliable leader if he's in right situation. But the problem is, that people didnt pick that up and called him autistic, y tho?
Being autistic doesn't mean you're not reliable. It just means you process the world a different way. It's why he has such an encyclopedic knowledge of monsters, but struggles to connect with people. And many people on the spectrum saw those parts of themselves in Laios and relate to his struggles
Im autistic and this shit had me fuming
Search for autistic knight he showed up
hhhhhhh me when i'm both sides of this
In my opinion, Shuro's anger isn't quite justified. He's arguing with Falin's OLDER BROTHER, who has more agency in the situation. Screw his relationship with her. I'm not so sure he's gonna be happy once he finds out that the girl he likes is just like her big brother.
I mean, he already knows, but Falin’s quirks aren’t as extreme as his. They come off as endearing rather than overwhelming.
@@CountDVB that could be because laios is extroverted were falin is introverted
They should kiss
Sorry but I dont vibe with shuro's point in the slightest
Yeah, telling someone you dont like them can be difficult
That in no way shape or form ever even a little bit grants you the right to be mad at them for it
YOUR communication failure is YOUR fault and YOUR burden to deal with
YES it can be difficult, YES if youre ND or whatever it can be even harder to the point of impossible
I can sympathise with that
Not with blaming the target of your internal frustrations
Not even a little bit
Sorry, but no. Never.
If you have difficulty expressing yourself to other people, I can sympathise
But the consequences of that difficulty remain nobody else's fault but your own, bottom line. Its NEVER their fault, not even a little bit. Never not once ever.
You tried being subtle and they didn't get it?
Tough. That sucks for you but it still isn't their fault. You don't magically gain the right to be mad at them for that. No sir.
You learn to communicate with people or you suffer the consequences of your failure. That's the end of it.
Same would go for Laios if he had a problem with Shuro (I dont know, I havent watched the show)
If he had a problem he couldnt communicate to Shuro then no matter what happens as a result its never, ever, not one time Shuro's fault. Not even a little bit for a little while.
common Shuro L
Why is everyone calling themselves autistic?
Because they probably actually got diagnosed?
Autism battle
W Damien
Shuro sucks 😂
I mean he confessed that he hates Laios and only stayed because of Falin and when she wasn't around, he left without hesitation, so yeah, he does suck
@@taraungoogle8482 that’s a fantastic point, but it’s also, to me personally, the fact that he thought that he could propose to Falin and take her back to his homeland, away from her culture, away from her friends, away from her brother and away from everything she knew and loved, and she somehow wouldn’t have a problem with it. I only know anime lore rn so I know nothing about Shuro beyond it but the way he can’t seem to see her as a complete person with a life of her own she wouldn’t wanna leave behind….I hate it. Suffer, Churro Man, suffer.
@@TheLastHylianTitan Also, it said that Shuro also left to get reinforcement to rescue Falin which doesn't sound bad but the reason why is because he clearly didn't have faith in Laios and his party's skill and didn't know what they truly are capable of(since he was too focused on simping for Falin then getting to know everyone). And his so call "reinforcement" are all his own simps and they seem very trigger happy because they're always sneaking up on people and threatening them with violence.
@@taraungoogle8482 He never hated him? He just disliked how Laios treated him and even was lowkey racist; at the end they forgive each other
@@taraungoogle8482 Damn, you don't have media literacy, huh?
But to put it short, BOTH him and Namari left. Hell, Namari didn't even make an effort to come back for Falin, AT ALL. Yet, only he gets the hate for that? I don't hate her, but insane how people just forget that happened.
Chilchuck makes a great point in how they didn't have any supplies or money, so coming back as a large group is basically a death sentence. The only reason why they made it this far is because of Senshi.
Eh fuck Shuro. There's literally no other options except for dark magic, even if him and his lackeys got to the dragon first.
Weakest Falin simp.
Marcille is a better simp
To be fair, he agrees to it. He's just tired and hungry at this point. Doesn't make it okay but explains; after all, people exploding or having thin patience after not sleeping or eating for long hours happens often.
@@danmakes2497for the love of God shut up and stop defending Shuro
@@spookydonutghosthouse Suprise, I'm not. :] People just don't watch the literal next scene where they get along afterward and explain why he was like that.
Make me shut up, come here and kiss me, I missed ya, dear.
Wait he is suposed to be autistic?
I thought he was just slow and super friendly? you don't need to be autistic to be this way.
It's not confirmed but many autistic people have latched onto Laios because they see a lot of themselves and their struggles in him.
Autistic or not, people with autism just relate to the way he acts and they feel represented.
@@Kimoisfinechannel Fair enough it's just everyone in the comments clearly say he has it thats why i was confused.
Not to sound rude or disrespectful but not everything needs to be something,i thought he was just a bit socially awkward or more specific he just is this way it's his personality.
I just find it annoying when people try to make characters these days something they aren't,not everything is deep or people wish it was that way and try to make people believe it to
But it's cool people get Laios and his struggle kinda do to.
DreYeon his va is on the spectrum and relates to the character a lot. He even cried when reading this part of the Manga cuz he found it very relatable
@@VivienVarga-ki3sd I see assuming the English one because the video has the english one right?
This is the most stupidest fight I've ever seen 😤 👏 😂 😒 🤣 🙄
😡
Wow…..someone dosen’t get subtext
@@brimstonesulfur5013I mean, even the subtext kinda frame it as chish too.
thats what makes it Great
Laos is damian from smosh