Dry water and Burning ice: all about gas hydrates
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ต.ค. 2018
- Two unusual materials with unusual names. I show how to make "dry" water and propane gas hydrate, which looks like ice and is flammable.
Dry water
www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/...
Propane clathrate
sci-hub.tw/10.1021/jp3035049
Propane hydrate formation
sci-hub.tw/10.1021/ie0207764
Methane storage in hydrates
sci-hub.tw/10.1021/ja8048173
Propane hydrate:
ps.uci.edu/scholar/sites/defa...
www.netl.doe.gov/research/oil...
Propane vapor pressure:
www.engineeringtoolbox.com/do...
Fumed hydrophobic silica on eBay:
www.ebay.com/itm/Hydrophobic-...
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That video is magnificent! Previously I have never seen some propane hydrates obtained in the lab, especially in HD quality!
your clickbait gives me cancer
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I've never used a magnetic stirrer, so I had always assumed they used fixed coils with AC current to create a rotating magnetic field, like the stator of a synchronous motor. I didn't know it was a permanent magnet on a separate motor. It's kind of a let-down. It would have been cooler if the only moving part were the stir bar, but it's probably more efficient this way, since there's less of a gap between the rotor and stator.
I think the actual lab-grade stir plates do use a rotating magnetic field, but for this experiment he just used a permanent magnet and a motor so he could easily rig it up himself. If you look at some stir plates online they advertise themselves as "no moving parts, rotating magnetic field", but that wasn't necessary for this experiment.
"...super uninterested in interacting with water..."
I like this explanation. Hydrophobic substances are often described as "repelling" water. Of course, there's a case to be made for this, as we could talk about maybe "net" repulsion by comparing the attraction against the electron repulsion. But that's two (or more?) phenomena being oversimplified to "they repel".
"Uninterested" is nice because it's down the the single phenomenon of adhesion. Hydrophilic substances adhere strongly to water, while hydrophobic substances do not adhere strongly to water. It's a useful visualization.
formally, something hydrophobic is something that prefers to interact with air than water, that means that changing the athmosphere has a small effect on hydrophobicity
Interesting, thank you. I had assumed it was adhesion to water relative to water's own cohesion or something.
@@aajjeee I don't see how your definition could be correct because plenty of molecules are described as being hydrophobic or having hydrophobic groups even when fully submerged in water. This is how cell membranes retain their shape (two layers of molecules, each with a hydrophilic end and a hydrophobic end, where the hydrophobic ends face each other and present the hydrophilic ends toward the outside and inside of the cell)
they have a value representing the surface energy, which is calculating by taking the angle of contact of a droplet of water on the surface of the molecule withn a normal athmosphere.
changing any of the conditions (type of droplet, air composition, surface propreties) will result in a change on the mesured angle.
however the fact that the angle changes dosent take away from the calculated surface energy in a regulated test (or compared to a known value) so a molecule can still be hydrophobic when entirely covered in water, it just is in a higher energy state and will ''seek'' to find another hydrophobic substance, like air
I used silica fume as an admixture for making ultra-high strength concrete for American Concrete Institute competitions when in college. Generally speaking, the lower the water to cement ratio the more strength the concrete would be... so silica fume would disperse the limited water throughout the cement mixture more finely, and effectively.
Normal silica without a hydrophobic coating? This will bind water in itself, maybe >50% in a mixture like concrete. So there goes your water content (it goes down).
So im not sure about what mixing has to do with anything. Concrete should be a really good mixture (in terms of water and cement) already. If there was a issue with mixing it to get a higher strenght... just about anyone would simply mix it better. Its not like mixing is a hard thing to do industrially.
Silica fume isn't the same as fumed silica. Silica fume is spherical, but fumed silica has a branching structure, so it has a much higher surface area to volume ratio.
You are right, thats something different and its not going to bind the water (its no desiccant).
But I still higly doubt that normal concrete is not mixed properly.
@@elypowell6797 Good point!
Ely Powell Haha, what the hell does this comment mean?
I remember taking a can of “compressed air” (it was butane if I remember correctly), and spraying the liquid through a straw into the bottom of a cup of very cold water by turning the can upside down while dispensing it. The butane evaporating froze the water into a milky white ice containing butane vapor that I was able to remove and burn as the ice melted.
I don’t know if that’s what this is, but it looks quite similar.
Great video! One of the few channels that I watch regularly.
The "dry water" would work well as a form of fire extinguisher, so long as it doesn't settle too much when stored.
All that surface area of the micro drops can massively decrease the fire temp through evaporative cooling, killing a leg of the triangle.
Towards the end of the video even, trying to light the very flammable material was for not. Would be nice to follow up and toss some on an already active flame.
Better still you can readily absorb CO2 into the dry water hydrate / clathrate, which one would think would be even more effective. You may be on to something here.
Ben, your videos are by far the most interesting on TH-cam. Thanks for all the work you put into these!
For the love of god wear a mask when you’re working around free flowing cab-o-sil! I work
With fumed silica almost every day and it’s narsty stuff. Sucks just getting it onto your skin.
Good point. Silicosis is a nasty disease, met a few people with it, briefly I might add.
Rocco Croce That's what I was thinking.
Calm down its not that dangerous. As long as you be careful with the fumes.
What fumes? The discussion is about micro particulates.
@@UnitSe7en yes i know dust sorry*
Thank you soo much for making these videos. You're an exceptional person Ben.
Thank you for another wonderful video ! Needless to say, all of your videos are wonderful !
Neat experiment. I have dealt with chlathrates in the oil industry mainly in flow assurance in well tie-backs. Nice to see such a good set-up. I can't wait for a working FTIR from home ;) Keep up the great work!
@@user-cy7ch4ur9j Что ты пытаешься сказать? Это звучит безумно. What are you trying to say? This sounds demented.
Awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to share your experiments and research, I really like your channel.
You always come up with the coolest experiments.
Seeing a notofication for a new video from Applied Science is a bigger thrill than anything I've ever experienced.
Glad to have you back! 😀
Gr8 effort and explanation of gas hydrate formation .. like the system.
wow I really love your videos. I don't understand everything but I love your thoroughness
Amazing explanation everytime.
What a beautiful tube furnace!
I learn something new every time I watch thanks for the info and time
You are great. Don't change. You are my favorite.
I had to look up the fumed silica hydrophobic coating. I was so used to calcium carbonates and titanium dioxides being treated with stearic acid that I had it stuck in my mind that silicas were done the same way. Treating them with silanes does make a whole lot more sense though, and it looks like the grades I've used over the years usually were treated with silicones rather than organic acids. Thumbs up for being well-researched.
Did you eat that whipped cream lol
That is the real question.
Now you're thinking like a scientist.
The real question is: Did he huff the nitrous oxide propellant after emptying the cream from the can?
You can hear him eating it at 1:24
good spot
Totally awesome! Thank you for sharing! Science is awesome!
Always interesting ! Thanks for sharing !
Thank you for this video, this super cool to watch as always! :)
Hi! It is a great video. I like that you unfold the topic in a pace that keeps me interested but I can follow in fly. I have never heard of these substances beore and it is really cool that you produce them in front of my eyes. However I think glow is when the solid carbon burns.
That whipped cream interlude took me back to your chocolate cake baking videos :)
Super fascinating!
When I was a kid back in the mid sixties, my family went to Ely MN for a vacation. At an outfitters store in town they had cans of dehydrated water for sale. Very light weighted as I recall. LOL
Awesome stuff to see hydrates form!
I work in a gas refinery and hydrates are a big problem in the gas/oil industry.
You need to closely monitor temperature to avoid hydrates early in the process.
The gas/process stream contains water so it's knocked out in drums before going through large desiccant driers.
The process needs to be dry before hitting the refrigeration section (chill train) for obvious reasons.
Hydrates are one of those things that cause us hell but we never see 😂
This was very interesting and cool. You are such a clever guy =)
You may wish to try blending sum Fume Silica and Liquid Propane. In order to produce Dry liquid propane.
But this time pressurize the Blender. And just turn the bottle of Propane upside down so that the liquid will flow into the Blending Unit. Which already contains the Fume Silica.
Which may result in a substance that should not require pressure or cooling to persist in that state. Technically only release gas once it's heated up to the combustion temperature of propane.
Of course you would still have the problem of the energy consumed to create liquid propane. But it would be far more cost effective and safer to transport.
Although it may still be possible to combine propane gas and Fume Silica. If the gas pressure is high enough.
I'm not super sure. But it sounds fun to try out.
Great video. For your dry water clathrate experiment, the question is: did you fail to make clathrate, or did it fail to burn? One way to figure that out is, did your dry water gain mass after being exposed to the propane?
Many thanks for all of the intriguing videos.
Can you just store the dry water indefinitely? How hot before it changes state to something else. Can you color it, or make it change color?
When it changes state do you see the humidity increase? Can you disolve stuff in the the water, and it stays in the water drops?
I used to build Hydrogen Flame Gas Chromatographs, elution columns, hydrogen generators, thermal conductivity probes, for use on Drilling Rigs and component gas breakdown.
it combines many different physical phenomena into one device.
This is amazing!!
The gas hydrate is ehh. Your set up to make it is awesome! I love the hacky DIY whatever it takes to get there approach, yet still very scientific and controlled. 🤓
Thanks for all your careful research and documentation. Can't wait to start replicating some of this stuff!
There's been a lot of work with covalent organic frameworks (COFs) and metal organic frameworks (MOFs) which are even better optimized for storing gasses at ambient temperature/pressure and even selectively storing specific gasses according to each gas's compatibility with the framework lattice, but the dry water silica version seems like it might be a cheaper alternative when optimal performance isn't needed. It does take some time under positive/negative pressure to saturate/desaturate the COFs with gas, so if your silica did absorb any gas then that might be why you weren't able to observe any burning. In general this slow release of the gas is a good thing though because that means we can transport or store the gas at ambient temperature/pressure without needing to worry about it escaping the lattice.
I think you should try adding a small amount of carbon black to increase the absorptivity of the hydrate/dry water. This may help sustain the flame.
enjoyed the fabricobbling
Great to see another video, Ben! Hope you are wearing a mask with all that silica dust around...
There are some considerations to be made with the pressure regulator as there are relieving and non-relieving types. The relieving type would vent the excess pressure from the gas hydrate changing back to a gas state and the non-relieving would allow the pressure to increase. A standard regulator (relieving type) used on typical home/industrial compressed air systems would normally vent the excess gas into the work space from a vent on the regulator. This could make the local area dangerous and sensitive to ignition sources. A regulator used for oxy-acetylene welding tanks would be an example of a non-relieving regulator.
always the coolest videos on youtube.
Great Video --
Friendly note -- I hope your ethylene glycol bath was not pure ethylene glycol (EG). EG alone freezes at 8 F, but when mixed 50-50 with water, freezes at like -30 F, and with water transfers heat 2-4x faster than EG alone. I've known people to make that mistake.
Also, for the future, clear PVC is a great (comparitively) cheap transparent material when you're less than 120 F and maybe 100 psi depending on the pipe size. Just a trick for you to have.
Good video as usual! Just a precision, gas hydrates are commonly referred as Clathrates.
Nice use of water cooler XD
How about try mixing the finished gas hydrate with the fused silica powder? Would the powdered silica coat the gas hydrate and insulate it for storage, as suggested?
woohoo, a new video from Applied Science!
Does dry water evaporate in room temperature? It is just unbelievable that 95% of that white powder is water and 5% is silica which means that if the water goes away, it leaves almost no trace.
"almost no trace" as in "almost the same volume". That silica (as a loose power) has a seriously(!) low density.
@@leocurious9919; Exactly. It's only 95% water *by* *weight*. I think a better metric would be the mole% that is water.
To actually answer the question: Dry water evaporates at a rate around 2.5 times slower than water, according to the research paper.
Also, a full aluminum can of Coke is at least 95% water by weight. So if you drink a can of Coke, you leave almost no trace. By weight. More believable?
@@Paradox3121; Well yeah, obviously. If the aluminium can was to leave a trace, we would pretty soon have run into a big waste buildup problem due to everyone just chucking their empty cans away.
As for 'wet' water not leaving a trace, hard water can have a TDS in the range of 300 mg/l, which equates to 0.03% by weight of solid residue. Looking at all the problems caused by limescale buildup, I wouldn't call even that percentage of residues "negligible"...
The "trace", in both cases, being pretty huge. One is a same size soda can and the other a pretty large pile of powder. If that is "no trace" to you then I hope if I ever crash into someones car its yours - there is not even a trace I tell you ;)
When I was a kid I'd blast canned air into water with the can upside down to see if I could form a chunk of ice with the still liquid propellant. Kind of reminded me of that.
You know that if you add metal impurities to ZnS it makes it have phosphorescent and fluorescent proprities. Cu=green Ag=blue Mn=orange but are there any other metals with different results???
speaking of gas hydrates on the ocean floor, i believe there is a video on the monterey bay research institute's channel that shows a crab trying to eat natural gas bubbles and them forming hydrates on its claws and mouthparts, seemingly confusing it with the feel and texture
Ben can you play with these materials some more? What does the powder feel like to touch? When you squish it, does it feel soft or condense into a solid like sand does? Does it feel like it has very high thermal capacity like water does or does it feel like thermal capacity is very low because of silica layer preventing heat transfer? Can you play some more with its heat-shielding capabilities? Can you show what other substances you can get by varying water : silica ratio?
You should try the experiment again, but place the dry gas hydrate into a heated chamber to see how much gas it evolves. Just to confirm it does properly store the gas and quantitatively analyze it's storage potential.
Thanks for the video! I have two questions: If it's hydrophobic, why doesn't it fall off of the water droplets? Van der Waals force or something? And what is the tape for, at 11:33?
Wuh ow! So great! How did this dry water thesis come to your attention?
THIS MAKES SENSE!!! The guy who made a insulator that is better than diamonds, has had to used this material and epoxy on the egg without the egg heating up and cooking!!!
EDIT: what i am talking about is "starlight"
Fastenating! Thank you for sharing...
cool......as always
You should blend the hydrate in the silica and see what it does, maybe keep a fire extinguisher nearby when you're doing it
Pull a low-vacuum on dry water and see how it's properties change. It likely acts like a whipped cream because it's also trapping lots of air.
How stable is the dry water? Can you leave it in a jar for weeks or months without any change? Or do the droplets gradually merge again into a big blob of water?
Direct abo, since Tech Ingredients brought me here (he recommended this channel).
Question: In your experiment, did the Silica (dry water materal) gain mass when you tried to create an hydrate? If I recall correctly zeolites are the primary meterials considered for storing hydrocarbon gases as well as hydrogen. Not sure if the Silica material is classified as a zeolite. I presume that the water (hydrate) is serving as the zeolite substitute for propane. Might be worth a try to liquefy the propane with in the silica and see if form some sort of suspension that can exist above freeze or at room temperature with the need for water.
As you try to heat up the hydrated silica, any water trapped inside is likely going to boil at around 100C, right? So in addition to the insulative property, it's also behaving like a temperature "buffer". In that case, if it's thoroughly mixed with a flammable substance, it seems like it's going to continually draw heat out of the combustion reaction until all of the water is gone.
This brings up another thought. The boiling point of water can be altered by dissolving things in it. This would be a separate process from the physical dispersion of the water and silica. So maybe there's a way to raise the boiling point of the water so high that it wouldn't stop the chain reaction of combustion. Alternatively, reducing the atmospheric pressure around the dry water would cause the water to evaporate out more quickly.
I wonder if it would make sense to try adding liquefied propane to the fumed silica directly and blending that in directly.
when are you going to make a portal gun ? your lab is awesome . thanks for the cool videos.
I think that is also used as a lightweight thickener/filler for epoxy, called, "Collodial silica"
Hi Ben, have you tried any methods for separating the water and fumed silica again after forming the "dry water?"
Perhaps if there is a way to do it without heat, your final "dry" propane hydrate experiment could work.
My question would be: how would you get the hydrate separated back out? I would suspect just warming the powder and catching the vapors would work just fine. Also, how would the energy for this process compare to the compression of propane to begin with? I suspect it would just be moving the required energy to a different part of the transport chain.
Is that a semiconductor oven in the background?
Would a non-ferro shroud at the edge of the stir bar stop it sticking so you don't have to fiddle with it, or not worth the effort for time fiddling?
Im pretty sure its for ybco superconductors, you need t fire them under pure pxygen and this is actually the construction i came up with before for making this possible without oxidizing your oven. Also i thnk he dropped something about ybco in another video. I guess that was a spoiler here ^^
What would happen if you put propane in liquid form with the “sand” instead of water? Would it behave in the same way and create “dry propane”? But then again I’m guessing it would evaporate afterwards. Would be interesting though. :)
Anyone remember that song "triangle man" by they might be giants? There's a line in the song: "when he's underwater does he get wet, or does the water get him instead?"
I think this video answers this question, be it 20 years late
Another fascinating video.
I thought you were going to use the 'dry water powder' as a 'dry powder' fire extinguishing medium to put out the gas hydrate fire.
The dry water powder has a very high surface area, so would it evaporate very rapidly in a flame, absorb heat and quench the flame? Or, does the high insulating property of the associated silica dust inhibit heat transfer from flame to water droplets?
Maybe another wee experiment for you.
Cheers Paul in NZ
I wonder what the lower limit on temperature and pressure on those sight glasses are? Will they handle a deep vacuum? how cold will they work at?
Ben, at the end of this video, was that propane (as liquid) that you had mixed with the powder (without water)?
I'd really like to see follow up videos where the unusual mixtures created in this video are investigated for use in space travel. For example, water and hydrocarbons are said to be excellent radiation shielding, but water is very heavy. Liquid propane is half as dense as water, and doesn't need to be kept as cold as liquid hydrogen, nor as cold as ice in the hydrate form, but doesn't need to be as warm as kerosene to flow freely. The solid forms, and especially the "dry-like" forms Are likely to withstand some unwanted contact with space debris, and were shown to be great thermal insulators too. This makes me wonder if these dried liquids would be useful for atmospheric re-entry thermal shielding. Perhaps, the radiation/insulation materials can be reconfigured for the Entry Decent and Landing phases of interplanetary flight as well. Something I would have really liked to see tested is the ability of this silica stuff to act as a moisture filter that doesn't require as much energy to regenerate as traditional descants, and possibly its use as a carrier for portable atmosphere processing, such as mixing it with Calcium Oxide to trap moisture and release heat to make Calcium Hydroxide + Heat, but then the Calcium Hydroxide will take Carbon Dioxide out of the air to make Calcium Carbonate and Water. The silicon stuff would help keep the particles dispersed within the airstream for efficiency and hold the heat internally while air doesn't flow. It may also find use in reducing the water needed to grow plants in space...somehow.
Solid mist seems like more of an apt name
have you tried putting the dry hydrate water solid in a oven to raise the temprature more gradually and then lite it on fire .
I think i accidentally made some flakes of that "burning ice" when i was playing with propane as a kid! It felt like a lubricant and i thought it was due to contaminants in the gas bottle.
Make the clathrate first, pulverize it then mix it with the fumed silica, then pack it into a pop can stove, the silica should allow the gas to flow through the packed mass as it is released.
Could you make edible dry water, like you can make dry oils with maltodextrin?
Over 50 years ago when I was a young boy scout, as a prank, we would send the youngest "newbie" to get some "powdered water" to cook with. Everyone knew there was no such thing and it was impossible to make. I stand corrected, amazed, and better educated.
Can dry water be used as a fire extinguisher and how affective would it be compared to traditional methods?
Would the 'dry water' effect be attributed to the surface tension of water, and if so would the introduction of a surfactant cause the 'dry water' to turn into a paste?
Good old fashioned dried water. Just add water!
in gas tanker (shipping) industry, hydrates are well known for resulting in problems in pumps. This is mainly the case in cargoes composed of different hydrocarbons, resulting in different evaporation temperatures. Hydrates can be formed if instable cargo is catalyzed by for example a pressure decrease or increase in a pump. This can let a part of the cargo turn into hydrates, which will start clogging the pump. For more information, google 'deepwell pump hydrates'
Is that welded up furnace brick thingy with the recovery tube attached to it for creating wood gas?
Wonder if dry water could be made with regular cinnamon powder as it is hydrophobic as well?
No. It makes slime.
what happens if you put the dry water hydrate in vacuum pot and set flame to the air being sucked out. Can the propane be sucked out that way?
so if you were to pipe the output from an ultrasonic humidifier into aerosolised hydrophobic silica would you end up with really small droplets
So this comment may be naive but when he said that the dry water can be used with hydrates as a transportation method for natural gas wouldn’t the fact that is hard to ignite be great for transportation because it lowers the risk of explosion. How would the natural gas be extracted? Would a depressurization and rise in temperature be sufficient to release it? Also, what is the density of a hydrate or how many cubic meters or feet of natural gas does it hold for every cubic meter or foot of hydrate? I have just started researching hydrates in my own time and haven’t yet been able to find a ‘density ‘ for this substance.
I and a few others have noticed the insulating properties bear a striking resemblance to videos of a material known as "Starlite", the recipe to which was never released by its late inventor. Have you ever looked into it?
Edit: Never mind. It looks like TH-cam user NightHawkInLight may have found out the actual recipe of Starlite.
does the dry water feel exactly as normal sand? drier? wetter?? we want to see more about it!!
Did you happen to check under the scope for the presence of silica-coated hydrates?
It occurs to me that this "dry water" may be related, in frozen form, to water on the Moon and Mars. When a powder or finely granulated material is very cold, like most of the time on Mars, and in the constant polar shadow areas on the Moon, that finely granulated material becomes a very effective *cold trap.* Similar things are used in some high vacuum systems, with highly porous granules of zeolite or activated charcoal. The large surface area of the granules/powder makes it easy, even in vacuum, for molecules of gas/vapor to get stuck to the hard surfaces, where it will easily freeze if the temperature is low enough. Over time, the granules can become saturated with high levels of the adsorbed/deposited gas or vapor. This kind of process is also likely to happen in certain kinds of dusty gas clouds in space, with condensable gases being held in relatively high concentration, while also being hard for astronomers to spot. Part of the mysterious "dark matter" could be this kind of cold conglomerate. It would be very interesting to see some experiments with how fumed silica, powder clay, and other material with large surface area behave when kept cold and exposed to various gases like butane, CO2 and water vapor.
so with the dry water gas hydrate mixture, maybe it'd work better if you didn't blend the dry water for quite as long so you get larger droplets of water, which should require less silica in the mix due to smaller total surface area.