Hitchens: Religion is about power.
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- Q&A part II of the Hitchens vs. Turek debate at VCU, VA.
Full debate:
www.vimeo.com/1...
and
• Video
Hitchens recites Omar Khayyám, translated by Richard Le Gallienne:
"And do you think that unto such as you;
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:
God gave the secret, and denied it me?--
Well, well, what matters it! Believe that, too."
Turek answers: god is probable (which is more a deist point and actually contradicts his religion) and hints on something like an argumentum verbosium. Hitchens answers: you need to do better than that if you want to tell us what to do, how we have to behave - the essence of religion.
![Christopher Hitchens - Free Speech (2006) [HQ]](/img/n.gif)
I am still amazed that in the 21st century...the majority of people still cling to superstition.
The person who wonders why some still cling to superstition in the 21st century - you're not alone, believe me.
JACKnJESUS most atheists who came from relgion, trade one religion for another. i.e. feminism. the worship of women. Atheism plus, being the prime example of shutting down and closing comments when it comes to women. effectively blocking criticism.
There is not any direct causal link between atheism and feminism. I happen to know many religious people who believe that women deserve a fair shake in the workplace.
I hope you do also.
JACKnJESUS you mean, if I worked harder and longer and for some reason she gets paid the same? so is that what you mean by fair shake? cause it sounds like horseshit to me.
Your interpretation of a fair shake is illuminating.
"I got him to say it" - how subtle and so brutal.
Needs some thug life shades
@Kkkk Bbbb why not? How would you characterise it?
@Kkkk Bbbb It emphasises how good he is.. so brutal is a very good word in this case.
How convenient!
The bitch, Hitchslap!
Yep, at the very end, the functional part of Christianity shows itself. Most of them claim they and their religion are all about "love" but they are just as petty and judgmental as the worst of us.
Exactly.
+Kzar Antila That sneaky comment said alot about religion, not just Christianity. God gives you what you deserve, dont see how this god is all loving and all knowing...
+Magnus Haveland sounded like desire not deserve to me. I agree that the comment was idiotic thou.
+Kzar Antila When religion is at its mightiest, it uses threats, force, and intimidation. When it has become disempowered, it lays its palms out and acts as if it has been merciful all along.
Ian Alan
People don't "choose" to believe a proposition. We believe things when we are convinced. Atheists don't choose to not believe in gods, we simply see no good evidence for any gods. If a theist believes in their god, fine, I guess, though it will impede your critical thinking skills in the long run. Theists just need to keep their fantasy beliefs to themselves if they want to be taken seriously. Replace "god" with "rainbow unicorns" and the meaning of the sentence doesn't change; they are both imaginary.
Hitchens quotes poetry as a question and the theist replies with a plea from incredulity.
That is why we loved Hitch.
+BollocksUtwat well described
@castroy64 nice try. But anybody who knows anything about hitchens knows that isn't true.
Sounds like you're just pissed off your myth is busted
castroy64
It’s true. Hitchens constant bitching and complaining about God drove his own mother to suicide. It’s amazing that someone who claimed God doesn’t exist, spent his entire life complains about Him.
@@3438-e9z As many have said before "it's not god I've got a problem with, it's his fan club I can't stand"
In other words, atheist's spend a lot of time bitching about religion, because a lot of religious people end up hurting others (and even themselves) in the name of bullshit fairy tales and nonsense
@@3438-e9z 343882 06 you need to improve your reading comprehension skills. I said A LOT of religious people, but I didn't say ALL, or even MOST. Secondly, which atheists are you claiming are the biggest mass murderers? Because if you're thinking of the Nazis, they were predominantly Christian, the German army of ww2 had 'God is with us' on their belts. Lastly, my evidence that religion is all fairy tales is the sheer LACK of evidence that anyone has that any of it is real, the burden of proof is on the religious, not the skeptic.
"You can't prove there is no God!" Well there is no proof, isn't that proof enough? I can't prove there is no Santa Claus either...but the lack of proof seems to be enough for most people.
I seen sants claus and also jesus.. Or so i thought
Not me. I know santa Claus exists. You know how I know? Because I believe in Him. I speak to Him. In fact, I even saw Him down at the mall over the weekend.
Santa Clause Several sources state Saint Nicholas is believed to have died on December 6, 343.
st nicholas burial place from en.m.wikipedia.org
The supposed tomb of Saint Nicholas is a fine slab effigy in low relief of an early ... and graveyard are in the town, where the earthly remains of St. Nicholas of Myra are said to be buried.
The difference is that Jesus Christ has no grave,but arose from his grave and is alive forever more.AMEN
Woody Allen: -You cannot prove there is no God. -No, you just have to take it on faith!
But then the stupid people say stuff like: how are you alive if god doesn't exist?
So yeah it's impossible to win arguments with stupid people,you can't convince people who trick themselves.
'God gives you what you desire'. That statement, at the end proves that Mr.Turek is the personification of 'Religion poisons everything'. While I dislike Mr.Turek, I do not wish him harm, nor would I celebrate his demise.
People wonder why I would NEVER follow superstitious non-sense, that's it right there in a nutshell. Believe whatever you want, but leave me out of it.
More correctly stated, "Humans have Free Will".
You’re a better man than I am. I want the arrogant prick to fry
And the implicit threat of that final statement is sickeningly pompous for someone who's guessing.
Did he not say ‘I’d give you what you desire’, referring to shooting Hitchens in the head? That would be very revealing.
@@FirstNameLastName-fe6rtno he said “God gives you what you desire” referring to Hitchens saying “I’m not going anywhere after I die and I don’t wish it otherwise”
"God gives you what you desire" right, go tell that to a mother who has lost a child
The mother gets a peace of mind that her child is in heaven and that she'll able be able to meet them again once she gets there herself, but to get there she has to bow down and pay up. In that sense religion is giving her what she desires - her child. It's a brilliant scam.
sure if you take a look on parents of joe biden donald trump you would be said
- have forgot lot others
_
when God have said you must made children
- you doing at you own risk
@@towercrowgames5115 a business man uses that. The concept per se offers relief.
@@planje4740
“Desire” or “deserve”? Can’t quite make it out, as the voices are sounding over one another at that point. The second would be even more cruel
"God gives you what you desire". Such a loving, Christian thing to say
Maybe it is. He may have accidentally said hell doesn't exist. Either way, it really removes the motivation to live that life...
Funny, though, how he doesn’t grant the starving child the food he/she desires, or the family that extra bonus they need to pay rent, or the mother who’s losing her only daughter to disease. Yup, god gives you what you desire. What a load of $h!t
Hitch was subtlety saying that he doesn't believe in an afterlife, meaning heaven and hell or that he even wishes it so. As a religious person, you just can't wrap your mind around the idea that there's nothingness after death and that's okay. You can see that that idea scared Turek (the religious guy) a little because he couldn't comprehend it. And when a religious person can't comprehend something, they immediately go to "it's God's will." They always have to throw God in there just to make themselves feel better. Maybe he did care about the redemption of Hitch's soul but Hitch is saying he doesn't believe in that. What Turek says just comes off as condensing. Like I know best and I feel sorry for you. Hitch has already made his point, calling those ideas nonsense. Turek's faith can't accept it. It's rather sad.
erhaboriE
"God gives you what you desire"
Only if that “desire” lines up with Gods desire, His will.
Tell that to the people who died during the inquisitions
When the world lost this man it lost one of the greatest human gems to have ever existed.
One of the worst...
@@ffjsb duh
@@CheknoEternity Another uneducated troll heard from. You don't even realize how generic the term "religion" is.
@@CheknoEternity "I was in religion for over 30 years"...
WTF does that mean??? You don't even know WHAT religion you were in...
@@CheknoEternity God is spelled with a capital G...
Hitchens is worse because he's 100% wrong.
I love the immature dig at the end, by the way. Hitchens says he doesn't "desire it any other way" (i.e., continuing after death), and the guy shoots back snidely "God gives you what you desire". I.E., if you don't believe you will continue, you won't. But if you believe you will continue, you automatically will. Just believe. BELIEVE, and do not question! Because if you question your belief in continuation after death, you just might not. That is religion in a nutshell. Believe (in anything we tell you or make up; sorry, I mean "reveal"), or cease to exist or burn in hell. No thank you. I'll take my chances with thinking.
I'm sure this was a labour of love for ol' hitch. buckjaw Turek has a phd - in bigotry or?
John and God allows you to take your chances with your thinking,My thinking as failed me and has at times proven me correct.thanks
That last comment in the end by the religious guy-- "God gives you what you desire"--in response to Hitchins saying he wouldn't want to live after death. That's a profoundly cheap shot indeed. And he's too devoid of the ability to think with reason and self reflect that the spiteful comment he makes conflicts with the religious worldview that he's up on the stage to defend.
That's just Turek's christian compassion on display.
@ John. Even as a small child 0f five or six years I could never make any sense out of Christianity as there was no logic in it. I knew this intuitively without even knowing what logic was.
Whenever I hear someone like Turek speak of their God in such a way, I can't help but hear white noise-- it's like listening to a grown man boast about his imaginary friend.
Schutzstafell Well, this actually is a grown man boasting about his imaginary friend.
Touche, good sir.
Sure, would you like to buy a vowel?
HEY! my imaginary friend KICKS ASS! All hail Mr. Buttons!
Yeah I have that problem too. Hitchens somehow developed an ability to debate with delusional morons who can't string a coherent paragraph together.
The holier than thou arrogance really shines in the last little jab,
"God gives you what you desire."
I guess we know what turek desires...
Oh yes; I will state the obvious, it is not about desire it is about the facts etc...
Still waiting for my desire to be fulfilled. Oh wait a minute - what's just come through the door? to be continued.
+stan .grondas nek minute its your sister
@Stuart H I desire people will realize god doesnt exist, ahhh shit that doesnt make any sense, sorry folks
That last comment of Turek's is SO creepy ... what a psycho ...
I desire that people abandon religion so god get to it.
Yeah - it's a "God will get you" comment.
They’re mental idiots
Religion is also about money. No priest would preach if he wasn't paid. He would look for a job.
Indeed, they take the money from the gullible, and use it against them in the form of continued oppression. Who says there's no such thing as perpetual motion?
HappyToBeReligionFree Voltaire wrote, "The first priest, the first divine, was the first rogue who met the first fool."
Can't argue with that!
No:Religion should be somewhat about money,The bible would say a workman is worth his wages.I will also say this,historically many preacher s were paid little and nothing,many by choice.Believe it or not many of us actually believe what we believe God says in the bible.thanks
Money is power.
@Oober Goober I always notice it's the Christians telling people to shut up or calling people names. A lack of evidence that God exists is evidence that he doesn't exists. Also Mormons are not paid by the church. But they give 10% of their weekly paycheck to the church. At one stage the prophet Brigham Young was one of, if not the richest man in the world. Young also had 55 wives and he held many positions of power in the church and state. Church leaders become church leaders because they are actively seeking power and money and in Brigham Youngs case 55 wives?
Atheist - "What is your authority to tell me what to do?"
THeist - "I am not telling you what to do, God is"
Atheist - "How you know what God wants me to do?"
Theist - "Because the bible tell me what God wants"
Atheist - "I have read the bible and it does tell me the same things you say."
Theist - "Well the words need interpretation to understand them correctly"
Atheist - "So who does the interpretation?"
Theist - "I do since God and I speak all the time"
Atheist - "Ah so it is you who tells me what to do! - What is your authority to tell me what to do?
+petereuk52 It's circular logic.
Do what the Bible says -> Why? -> It's the word of God -> How do you know? -> The Bible said so
Rinse and repeat.
Bulwark Yes I know except the bible does NOT say it is the word of god. They made that bit up too.
petereuk52 wow i realy like the way you said that!
It’s far more than just ten rules. But it is funny you mention the ten rules because a good at least third of them hardly anyone abides by anymore.
petereuk52 EXACTLY! Some camel or sheep herder writes something down and then the Romans decide to pick and choose which writings are God's so they can have power over their citizens and here we are 2000 years later buying into that bs. The individual writings DON'T DECLARE they are the word of God, what makes preachers think they have the right to claim it is the word of God?
Turek is completely out of his depth... almost embarrassed for him.
Wanda Lee he could not find his own penis with a map and a flash light .
Wanda Lee
Only an ignorant atheist would say what you just did. It’s amazing how many people are filled into thinking that Hitchens is some great debater. I feel embarrassed for you and your lack of proper education in science or philosophy.
It's not just turek, it's all the lunatic "believers",,,,,,,they take the soft fluffy bits from the bible and hope there's some truth in it, it's not belief, it's fear
@@3438-e9z, Fuck you. How about them apples.
343882 06
Lmao. Turek builds his arguments on scientific ignorance and word twisting
I watched hours and hours of Hitchens and this is the greatest 5 minutes I've seen. I literally got goosebumps when he concludes with "And you wonder why I'm not keen"... No other Hitchens clip so effectively destroys the notions of Christianity and frees the human mind like this one
Turek is so full of hate that he can't control his emotions. He's worried that Christopher will expose his church "business" 😂
He is so full of shit too.
I thought I did expose it?
Never ceases to amaze me the conviction these psychopaths have in their imaginary bearded man in the skies. 🤦🏼🤣
As someone who grew up southern baptist I can’t tell you how much pleasure it gave to watch that man get challenged and emotional. I wish Christians, Muslims and any other religion would realize no one cares what they believe. People just care when you impose it on them.
....3 years down the track, your comment is seemingly more relevant than ever in so many different way now.
I used to counsel domestic violence victims. The biggest question always was, “Why does he/she do that?” There were several reasons, but they all filtered down to two primary ones: power and control. I’ve read a great deal about abuse and a great deal about atheism vs. religion. There are definite unavoidable parallels between religion and abuse. Both at the personal one on one level and at the large nation vs nation level.
In that case, how come the Orthodox Jews are such a minority and don't have any sway/influence throughout society, culture, and economy in contrast to their nonpracticing, secular, atheist counterparts?
THIS
The very thing that pushed me over the edge to finally leave the Faith entirely was the realization that ultimately, it was only ever about Power and Control, in a striking and chilling parallel to abusive, violent relationships. It galvanized me to leave despite nearly two decades of indoctrination and an entire congregation worth of personal relationships whom I knew, the moment I chose to leave the church, would write me out of their lives forever. It is well to see someone else who sees the same thing I did, and understands what I mean when I say, in no sense of hyperbole - If the Church is the Bride of Christ, then Christ is an abusive husband.
@@HeavyMetalMouse ...interesting story, mine is similar. Indoctrinated into Catholicism from birth, then onto a more fundamental bible teaching church in my late teens, I had no choice but to leave the church when I was 28, which also coincided with leaving my wife and daughter (seemingly necessary at the time)
It took some years but determination to be free of the indoctrinations lead me on a diverse path to the point where I was at, of all places, a Christian retreat centre in France when I finally broke free of what Christianity held over me. That was some 30 odd years ago now and since then deeper and deeper realisations of truth and of who, or what, I really am. From my perspective, as I have heard stated somewhere before....'it is good to be born into a church, it is not good to die in one' !!
"God gives you what you desire" you can see the scorn in the good doctors face. He asked such a ridiculous question and gets a fittingly ridiculous answer and is enraged by it. The arrogance on display from the Turek is... not surprising.
"I'm giving cosmological, theological, moral, mathematics, ..." wow. just wow.
The scripture alone can't explain or prove gods existence. That's why he gives scientific answers to to spiritual questions.
@@everettnowack182 It really flies in the face of all the Hell-fire Baptists, doesn’t it? One of their tenets is “Sola Scriptura” -only the Bible is true. Yet they can’t even justify their beliefs using the Bible. It’s telling. It proves that religion is only about power. I miss Hitchens. We need his reason now more than ever. Islam and Christianity continue to erode the social fabric of global society. One of these theocratic clowns is going to go nuclear one day.
Lmaooo
In essence he's saying what theists almost always say, "Look at all these amazing, complex things. They're so amazing and complex they MUST be from a god."
It's begging the question and stems from personal incredulity. It assumes that because things are so complex they MUST have a designer of that complexity, and it rejects the proposition that such complexity could develop on its own simply do to the natural functions of the universe because understanding those functions with any degree of scientific rigor is hard and poorly understood by most people.
@@everettnowack182 pseudoscientific.
My blood runs cold at the thought of Mr. Turek counselling some depressed, insecure, woman suffering through a bad marriage seeking advice from him. He comes across as bullying, bombastic, and brow-beating and I feel if he felt he had the upper hand he could be quite immoral in his advice.
Well said and very true.
He is actually a religious narcissist.
@@athena3865 And probably a misogynist.
I was raised catholic, spent years in a monastery. Today I still struggle with my psychological ties to the faith. I find Hitchens (who I've only just discovered) absolutely refreshing, his arguments a vital tonic to the general conversation. In my opinion, Christianity, and all religions, should back off the claim to primacy and start proving themselves on their own merits.
*What* "merits"? "Proving" themselves will never happen because *they can't.*
Your comment is unbelievable, years in a monastery? And you dismiss it as nothing of importance? If true, that's very sad you feel that way,I'm very grateful for my Christian up bringing
@@penboyasgod6103 clueless comment
@@mavis3916 Actually, it's your comment that is unbelievable and definitely clueless.
@@mavis3916 If you were not "brought up" as a Christian and you were only exposed to Christianity in your 20's, you would see it for what it is. Man made mythology that holds back a free thinking society. "Christian upbringing" = child abuse.
All Religion was started by somebody who wanted an easy ride.
What would you say is the opposite
Stratboy999 I believe it was Twain who said religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.
I think you are thinking of socialism. I don't think the early Christians had an easy ride unless you think burning alive, hung on a cross, and being attacked by lions is easy.
@@bingo7799 They could have covered it up with epic stories after taking an easy ride. Who knows? Christianity controlled their era for long time.
Yeah, Jesus had it pretty easy in his lifetime...
If there was a god, EVERYONE would know about him. Not just a few. He would have revealed himself to us by poking his head through the clouds, and saying something like, "I am god, the creator of all things. I am all knowing, all powerful, and all wise. Live by my rules, and you will prosper in life." Has anybody seen this happen? And if anybody has, would somebody ring the bell, because i was left out of the loop here!
Bro of course there's no fucking god.. but the dumb dipshits who really want to be submissive with their master "god" just comes up with random stuff like "god is testing your faith" and stuff like "god would never abolnemdu those who chachachoo because of the ding ding dong that betrays the devils" and medieval witch belief stuff like that
This actually happened to me. Then again I was tripping on magic mushrooms so who’s to say what really happened...
Why do you think God would be that way - poke his head through the clouds? What if instead he left the most famous book to ever be written in human history for you to read? The bell is ringing.
@@knpstrr a famous book perhaps, but it is full of unreliable stories, unbelievable cruelty, and full of plot holes, endless waffle about making tents and how to kill animals for god, plus multiple contradictions. It was unavailable to most of humanity until recently, and it didn’t exist at all until a couple of millennia ago. It certainly isn’t “the word of (a) god”.
@@kellydalstok8900 That's your opinion.
I notice every time this religious opponent challenges Hitchens, the dude seems really butthurt about Hitchens cool, calm and collectiveness, we love Hitchens 😀👍✌
wow this guy is a lunatic, well done Hitchens
I've Never Understood Why Ppl think they Have To defend thier Beliefs.
"THERE IS NO PEACE, SAITH MY GOD, TO THE WICKED." (ISAIAH 57:21)
Why thank you, comrade
@@lovejoypeaceforever quoting the Bible? The last refuge of a complete fool
The laughable thing is that Turek thinks he's in a debate rather than on the wrong side of an intellectual rout.
That's a good point .. I've often wondered why we even humor these morons, and to a certain extent even validate their beliefs by pretending it's a debate...I for one think it's time we plow full steam ahead into making this world secular and stop getting bogged down in the name of open mindedness or fairness.. Come what may, and consequences be damned; the worst thing we can do is to continue to "argue" with these hate mongers
No, every group wants to plow full steam ahead with their cause without regard for dissenters they deem unworthy of debate. if you truly believe they are wrong then it is ultimately good that their beliefs are continually torn to shreds by concise and charismatic speakers like Hitchens. How many people have this video alone liberated from Protestantism? (To say nothing of Christopher Hitchens’ body of work in general.) How many self-deceptive psyches has this video rattled? You see my point. Godspeed
"God gives you what you desire"
It's funny because it's one of the most blatantly untrue things he could have possibly said.
I was about 4 years old when I woke up to the Santa Claus hoax. It didn't take me much longer to work out that the reason my Sunday school teachers were so evasive when I asked them questions was that they didn't have a clue what they were talking about. This Turek guy reminds me of them.
😂😂😂
👍 Frank Turek is entertaining, he doesn’t even believe the Christian lies, but hey! it’s his job to argue and get paid.
The vast majority of theists are not deluded, nor are they evil, power hungry individuals, but are indeed....."lazy-minded". This "lazy-minded-ness" leads to a "lazy lifestyle". Lazy lifestyle means never stepping out of your comfort zone. It means, there will always be someone to spoon feed you your thoughts and actions, along with the escape mechanism of faith when someone challenges them to face reality. Honestly, no clear thinking person could look at what religion espouses and say..."yeah, that makes perfect sense" unless their mind had been clouded with said "lazy-minded-ness". So many people are content to exist in their own little matrix.....so many people are completely devoted to keeping the former content. Notice Mr. Turek's aggressiveness! How would you act if someone tried to awaken you from your warm and comfortable slumber?
+drchico40 As a Christian, I find listening to Hitchens to be a way to step out my comfort zone. I do think we, with our science, are still working on our understanding of reality. IMHO, it would be anthropocentric to think we have it all figured out. But it is certainly worthwhile to explore every aspect of the universe we can.
+laertes104 Paul Johnson, in his "History of Christianity", a book cited at least once by Hitchens, demonstrates at length the Church's effort to create a "total society", based largely on thinking first developed by Augustine, failed. The clergy could not figure it all out, the plethora of denominations perhaps being sufficient proof. Johnson prefers the approach of Erasmus, that is, a minimalist theology that leaves ample room for the exploration of the unknown and for pluralistic societies, yet offers a sufficient basis for Christian faith, primarily "Christ is risen." I think you and I agree that Christianity has no more valid claim to have figured it all out than science. If omniscience exists anywhere, it exists in God, not human beings. We may be essentially equivalent in our humility, but have arrived there by different routes, neither of them "lazy".
+laertes104 I think Hitchens read Paul Johnson's "History of Christianity", or at least enough of it to find it as a useful citation in one of his speeches. In that same speech, Hitchens also recommended Diarmaid MacCulloch's "Christianity, The First Three Thousand Years". MacCulloch is Professor of History of the Church at Oxford. Paul Johnson is an Oxford educated writer of many books on history. Reading one or both of those books would shed light on my proposal that Christianity does not make the claim it has it all figured out, or it would not say, "Eye hath not seen . . ."
+laertes104 Ok. Let's go back to Dr. Chico's proposal, to the effect of, "The vast majority of theists are lazy minded and are so because they don't step out of their comfort zones." How would he know he is right about that? Perhaps he is both a sociologist and educator who has conducted broad surveys of theists and knows a lazy student when he sees one, either personally or in the form of a survey response. He is a gracious critic, giving the "vast majority of theists" credit for not being deluded, or evil, or power hungry. But unlike Hitchens, he does not go on to tell us about his latest book in which he clearly demonstrates his proposal. In my posts, I am proposing that a review of Christian history (pick your book, I've given two mentioned by Hitchens) might challenge Dr. Chico's proposal. I am proposing that my presence in these comments is an example of a Christian stepping out of their comfort zone. As a Christian, raised by educators, disciplined by Nature through the profession of engineering, who has encountered hundreds of other Christian's in small group discussion settings, I can't duplicate Dr. Chico's results. The Christians I know are varied in their talents and emphases, but lazy they are not. They get up in the morning on a day off and go to worship and study sessions. They ask tough questions. But, that is just my experience. Dr Chico and you have yours, and it is certainly conceivable that your data support your conclusions. "Christ is risen" was not conjured up in the 4th century. The manuscript evidence, largely in the British Museum, shows it appeared in the first, and so did the Church. We can't otherwise go back in time to see what really happened so as to verify what has been passed onto us. But within the New Testament lies another proposal from Jesus: "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." That's a proposal that has not expired, it is open to investigation in the present. Yes, it is mystic, in the realm of human consciousness, subject to abuse, maybe not very comfortable, because a real presence of God in our minds may take us out of our comfort zone. There is not much else for me to prove to you, because you are a free spirit, beyond my control. He stands at your door and knocks. It's your call.
You nailed
Intelectual lethargy is what nourishes religion/superstition
I just cannot understand how apparently people with normal common sense can believe in fairy tales and an invisible friend to help them get through their life. You live your life and then you die like all living creatures = that's it = lights out and the party goes on without you, what's the problem ??
The problem is that when you're taught to believe in God (or allah or buddha etc) from a young age then no matter what else you learn through science and history, the concept of a deity is sort of grilled into your mind. I went to a Catholic school and because Christianity was taught as fact, I accepted it as fact until the age of 17. It's embarrassing to admit but I was just never taught to believe otherwise.
"What's the problem??" I don't think you're familiar with death; when you get up close and personal, you'll see what the problem is.
Ding Dong it’s sad. That’s why the majority of people made up religion. Because they don’t want to leave, they want to keep living, even if it means making up fairy tales. I’m absolutely fascinated about fantasy stories, heores, justice etc, but those are just that, stories.
Language can be such a crude and difficult way to communicate or convey a point or argument for many people. But Christopher Hitchens always had beautiful way of brining his point across. Swift, powerfull and eloquent. And makes it look so effortless.
turek´s "god gives you what you desire" at the end shows that religion poisons thought, saying that hitchens will receive hell after death
I mean Christopher said he wanted to be annihilated when he dies, didn’t think he meant he’ll lol
If we're are going by "probabilities" of god existing, I would pick the trickster diety. A god who created the entire cosmos as a practical joke, to amuse himself. He took human form several times (as Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, etc) just to mess with us.
This is the god that is mostly likely to exist, because it explains all religions, all miracles, all mysteries, and why good things happen to bad people...SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Hail Discordia.
you could also claim the god people believe and worship is actually the evil one and man is good before god corrupts him, after reading the bible this is more likely than the god is good belief
alex bro Discordia?! No, all hail Sheogorath!!!
www.serendipity.li/jsmill/grand_story_of_humanity.htm
Darryn Grabbe That was a great read. Thanks for sharing.
Hitchens is so calm and refined and logical and the same tired rhetoric is spouted as if it's a reasoned response. I don't understand how people can be so blind.
You don't understand? Here, let me help you:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
As you read the list, keep in mind that we are all potentially vulnerable to everything on that list. Instead of wondering why some people are incredibly irrational sometimes, wonder instead how any of us are ever able to be rational at all.
Yeah, I get cognitive bias, and the more evidence you produce the more stubbornly they hold to their beliefs. You cannot win, they have to reach an epiphany themselves...and hopefully realise how ridiculous they were and how much damage they've done.
karlah-jade norkunas Peter Boghossian has some interesting stuff about "street epistemology" that you may find interesting.
Paul T Sjordal I had a bit of a look, very interesting. thank you.
"THERE IS NO PEACE, SAITH MY GOD, TO THE WICKED." (JESUS CHRIST TO HIS PROPHET ISAIAH IN THE SAME BOOK 57:21)
Turek agitated and aggressive with his foot twitching. Hitchens calm and reasoned as always. Case closed. I've never met a kind humble generous person who is heavily into organised religion. And those that are are often elitist, selfish and cold. Peace and goodwill to all men?..sure but only if you believe what I believe eh!
I belive in Christopher. I am overwhelmed by his intelligence.
@Stacy Caruso Yeah but then, you never saw Paul Wolfowitz from across the room in the moonlight with the night breeze in his hair and then found yourself ravished and swept off your feet by his dreamy, hypnotic gaze.
"ARE YOU ALSO DECEIVED?"
Much appreciated, comrade
Did that guy casually threaten to kill Hitchens at the end of the clip?
Cameron Love I think he's (kinda cleverly (maybe)) referring to a theologian idea of being annihilated instead of going to Hell. The softer and more nuanced version of him saying "die/go to Hell, Christopher!". :')
Cameron Love I don't believe so. It seemed to me like he suggested (according to his beliefs) if you don't want to go to hell, God won't send you!
Hitch: "I'm not going anywhere after I die, nor do I wish it were otherwise"
Turek: "God gives you what you desire"
That's got to be the easiest way to avoid hell I've ever heard! "I don't want to go to hell" - there, I'm safe! :D
Manly Stump No I don't think so. Because that would be the easiest fix to religion! ;)
It sounded much like a retort to me. "I don't wish it otherwise" -
Turek: "Haha! You fell for it Chris. Now your ass is God's for eternity"
I would suggest that you just take a look at his face while he says it.. @ 5:30
Jorrit I know that wasn't what he actually intended, but if you take the meaning of what he said, and Hitch's comments that he was responding to, that is what it would have meant.
Cameron Love Most definitely! Exactly what he said was “I’ll get you what you desire.”
Christopher was amazing! I miss him!
I love how he is literally named after Jesus Christ, and is the best debater against all false gods...
fkin heartbreaking but we have this and it'll be ok -- he wants us to be ok - so rock on - trust me - play a song and party
Me too!
THE DEMONS IN HITCHENS KNOWS WHO JESUS IS, BUT MISLEADING HITCHENS, WHO NOW ARE BEING TORMENTED IN THE LAKE OF FIRE FOREVER AND EVER. "HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT [IN CHRIST] SHALL BE DAMNED."
Tina tbh there are people that are terrified at this. I myself as an atheist do sometimes wonder about if Christianity was right. It’s a really terrifying feeling.
I love how the Christian is gripping his chair like someone one on a roller-coaster that doesn't want to be on it. I don't think he even believes his own words
Of course he doesn't; he's a huckster and he's in it to bilk credulous sheep.
I think Billy Graham. Didn't really believe it
Of course he believed his own words, otherwise he wouldn't say them. Only Christians and other faiths talk about that which they don't truly believe
There are many frozen corpses you can encounter on the way up to mt everests summit , all of whom had various concepts of god or none at all but there they lay like birdseye frozen peas for their choice to attain a lofty goal indeed.The mountain doesnt care if you make it , I dont care if you make it and gravity is still there if you make it or not.
"The mountain does not care if you make it."
Metaphorically and also literally true.
I like that.
This guy comes across as ' FRIGHTENED '
Take away the book ....what is left ?
As always, absolutely brilliant! This man understood more in his little finger than many civilizations did for their entire existence! Hitchens will live always on TH-cam! That's a lot better than an imaginary, ridiculous "pie in the sky by and by."
"God gives you what you desire" is a perfect ending to this clip, only because it illustrates the bitter end of the religious argument, when circular logic, non sequiturs, and correlation demonstrating causation fallacies have failed. Threats. Naked aggression, and Hitch brilliantly goads this simpleton into more than one astonishing admission which, I think he was a bit surprised at how easily the almighty became a god of probability and convenience from the mouth of his own emissary.
Hit
My favourite part in this debate, and indeed one of my favourites in debates generally, is when Turek rethorically asks "where does evil come from?" and Hitchens, without so much as even missing a second, immediately interjects drily by saying "religion".
Christopher made this stupid man squirm . I bet the god botherer went home that night and thought MMMmmmmmm maybe he's got something here,when I think about it it is all really ridiculous !! Silly sod on a cross!! Water to wine and walking on water probably happened on the same day due to excess amount of water ....I miss you Christopher....
Gary A - Chances are he was thinking that Long before Hitch got done with him. But this poor guy has So Much invested in perpetuating this nonsense, and 'preaching to the choir', that he is impervious to anything rational that Hitch might say to him. He has to keep pressing on... it's his entire existence... his very livelihood.
If God gives us what we desire, what about God's plan then?
Andy Ng: "If God give us what we desire,..." Jehovah God does not when those desires are carnal, materialistic, selfish, etc. However, He will give us justice and freedom.
Chemicals react in predictable fashon.
Since humans are made of chemicals bound by the laws of physics, do we really have Free Will, or only a subjective illusion of making choices ?
Are 'choices' no different than the choice of water boiling when heated?
Hmm... chicken / egg first type of question.
@@SeaJay_Oceans I believe that for the sake of sanity, our ego functions for our survival as an illusion of free choice in a reality governed by cause and effect.
@@blondboozebaron I agree, it adds function to people so they don't just wander about like jellyfish, randomly eating things they find on the ground...
@@SeaJay_Oceans That would certainly solve the cigarette and used gum problem on the sidewalk.
When Xenu finds out Turek has left the space ship he’s gonna be pissed
I love that last word "I dont wish it otherwise", its so true, I love how the universe just made us and disposes of us and moves on relentlessly.
Thats because he doesn't want to meet a genocidal toddler.
And thats why its tougher to be agnostic/atheist. We face the fear of death head on instead of burying our heads in the sand with promises of a convenient afterlife that people aren't even sure exists.
We have never seen it but we've heard others say they have. Despite the lack of a credible source people say to themselves that "yes this is enough to throw all other assumptions out the window. It must be true, it must be so. How can life mean anything if not for God?" It might be hard for me to answer that question, but I think it's harder for me to accept a claim on bad evidence.
I raised the argument with a colleague that it's immoral to offer salvation and forgiveness no matter the crime without suffering just punishment and making appropriate reparations and restitution to the victims. They responded and said that I just don't understand confession and how priests charge the person with appropriate tasks to obtain forgiveness and salvation and that's sad. I then asked if they thought the priests/cardinals/bishops/etc that have been sexual abusing children they have been charged with caring for in most cases if they have done appropriate actions and punishments to obtain salvation and forgiveness in mans eyes let alone gods. The conversation ended pretty quickly after that... although I did concede that even if god did exist his name is forever tarnished by the actions of men and women acting in his name and he will only be able to obtain forgiveness and salvation when he reveals himself and provides just explanation and receives just punishment and provides reparations and restitution to all of his victims... I think they'd switched off though which is a classic Christian way of never losing an argument by no longer participating no matter if your technically physically present...
It's so awkward watching a grown man defend religion :)
What a knockout...
What is the point of a god that requites verbal acrobatics in order to justify its existence in the first place? It seems to me that if god existed then it would be capable of showing its existence to us, being all powerful and all…
Ergo - there is no god.
But lets say just for a moment that there were a god, then what would it matter to people as it seems to have no interest in communicating or interacting with us?
It wouldn’t, and doesn’t.
Get over it.
Mundify66 I dare you to read the Gospel of Jesus Christ! If you do, you may get your proof of God manifesting himself. I hope you choose to do so!
Antonio Pietrangelo
The bible cannot prove the existence of a God. It's words on ancient paper, so-to-speak. I couldn't write a book, tell you it's some created divine being's will, because I can't verify it's existence through words. You would discredit me and call me out for my bullshit. The same goes for the bible and *all* religious text.
Riven Obyss Of course you can not prove the existence of God. Neithor can I prove to you that God exists. But God can proves he exists! However, God can prove he exists, but you have to ask him to enter into your life. I have, and he has entered into my life. Nevetheless, God is spirit, and he can not be seen but his presence can be felt. The problem is this: will you humble yourself to ask to see and feel his presence. When you do ask God into your life, the words of Jesus Christ manifest themselves into your soul you can have ever lasting life. Ever lasting life is there if you want it. However, the catch is you need to ask God for ever lasting life, but first you need God to enter into your life.
Antonio Pietrangelo
That's a cop out, and I mean that genuinely. There isn't any reason to suspect he exists at all and can contact me if I decided to try and communicate with him. People have done so, with purest of intentions, for discovery. They've discovered silence.
The human brain is highly susceptible to hallucinations, and becoming highly delusional over this extended period of having hallucinations. There's also an inherent problem with the bible, it's blatant contradictions, and it's lack of actual tangible evidence concerning a God. I cannot prove he exists because he's never been demonstrated to exist outside of a person's mind.
Edit: You've been surprisingly calm concerning this topic of debate. Many Christians who browse these comment threads are aggressive sociopaths with little compassion for civility. I pass on respect points to you, for that.
Riven Obyss But God did manifest himself in the flesh! His name is Jesus Christ!
I get religion, and I get why it exists. We don't want to feel like our efforts at life have been in vain. We don't want to go through a life full of sadness, pain, misery and anger with no rewards or benefits at the end of the road. We want to feel important and special. We want to see our loved ones again. And if religion can offer you this peace of mind, all the more power to you. But keep it to yourself.
what is the proveable probability god exist compaired to the provable probabilty humanity or a handfull of human created the concept of God?
I find it very sad that as a former Christian I know they believe God wrote the Bible. He did not write it. God does not scapegoat. He is beautiful. Men wrote the Bible. Some had kind hearts. Some had evil hearts. It is a history book. Some of it is fable that Christians take literally.
I told a Catholic Priest that after he admonished me about going to hell
For doubting him. Don’t threaten me with your god I was 9
The Catholics love that one - the threat of hell to little kids, accompanied by the paintings. Also comes in handy when you want to rape a child: "don't tell anyone my son or thou shall make God angry."
Catholicism is a disease
"God gives you what you desire."
Christopher died from lung cancer. Did he desire that?
You idiot he was an atheist.
kassop you're kidding
No shit sherlock.
Christopher died from esophageal cancer.
Christopher died from esophageal cancer, same as his father did ......inherited genetic diseases .
Having religion as that kind of odd nonsensical belief I see as fine. The problem is the people that think it's as equally valid as science and try to make "evidence" based arguments for it genuinely being true. One side has put in the painstaking hours to investigate truth while the other has planted their flag and proclaimed truth regardless of evidence.
I love how Turek always insists that constant appeal to emotion and innuendo = "evidence".
That's not evidence, Frank. That's bullshit.
Shoot me in the head and I can't go on like this......
And I won't be coming back to bother you.
I loved Hitchens wit
It is sooooooo fucking frustrating being an Atheist.
Lowfun i think he means that's it's frustrating because you have to deal with religious retards.
Lowfun Any thoughts on the origin of our species? I've no idea. Neither religion nor evolution have convinced me.
***** That's a stretching it a little bit too far, but I feel you.
Something big might have happened but we find no reason to believe in it because evolution is the best theory available.
Lowfun, please don't waste your time pursuing the notion that evolution is wrong because it is NOT wrong. This beautiful theory (and be careful not to say "ah, it's just a theory" because that would reveal that you don't understand the significance of the word "theory" in a scientific context) is so on the money that it has withstood 150+ years of attack and abuse. Check out the 2005 Dover School Board legal case as a great summary of how the US legal system reached a conclusion on Creation vs Evolution. It is true the fossil record is not perfect, that's because it's very rare for every dead creature to leave a fossil record behind but the relatively young science of genetics has proved without a shred of doubt that Evolution is bang on for all living things, flora and fauna. Keep your mind open!
I like the fact that you're thinking scientifically and not religiously. Your skepticism is a good thing, but those questions seem to be rather quickly thought out in an attempt to boost the number of them to convince more people that evolution is false. Lots of them are "blah blah hasn't been answered yet" which is because science is a PROCESS not a field. It means we may find the answer in future as our technology advances. The other thing is that it says stuff like "we haven't seen it occur" or "we should see half-evolved animals". The first is because it's far too slow to see ourselves, so we rely on fossils, which we do have examples of evolution in horses in particular. The second is just a bit false, as 1) how is it an evolutionary advantage to have a stubby wing attached to you (even if that WERE how evolution happened that animal wouldn't have any survival advantage) and 2) we see it in the lengthening of giraffe necks, changing of hedgehog behaviour, etc, so there ARE "half-evolved" animals
"God gives you what you desire" -- with that snide comment (and many others) Turek reveals his true motivations, since actually there is no way in Christianity that Hitchens could get THAT, and we already know Turek finds THAT to be abominable. Therefore, his only possible motivation for saying that which he doesn't believe and abhors, must be that he hates Hitchens personally
Religion is for those who grow older but not wiser, they do not outgrow their childish world of make-believe.
Over 10 years ago.....
Miss you Hitch 😞
It amazes me that Turek does not have a clue how preposterous his opinions are. There are more worthy opponents on the street corner.
"if you shoot me in the head, and i can't go on like this. i won't bother you either. nor am i going anywhere....and i don't wish it other wise"
-Christopher Htichens
what a great quote.
Shoot me in the head and I can't go on like this and I won't be coming back to bother you.. haha.. he truly was witty.
Hitch may not have gone anywhere when he died, but he sure stayed here in our hearts as an everlasting voice of reason. What a guy....
Each day innocent children and adults are murdered or maimed when will you stupid believers ever realise there is no god to stop this evil get real its a big lie.
This guy's argument is not even addled: The three witnesses are "Creation, Consciousness and Christ". Yes, these three concepts are "witnesses" to God.
And empty space is solid dark matter, fire is life, and Theology is automatically truth, if you clam it is "inerrantly inspired".. See how easy that is?
Hitchens does not even address the incoherent "three C's" argument he makes; because it makes no grammatical sense.
2:54
Turek: "It IS quite convenient and that is the very nature of God."
Hitchens "...I got him to say it."
Can it get any better than that???
He will be greatly missed ;(
Wow~! I made it to 2:56 before having to quit. Hitch is calm, rational ... the other guy is an excited squawker screeching regurgitated BS par excellence.
RIP Chris Hitchens, you are greatly missed
Hitchens closed the lid on that one; what a rare intellect indeed.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well-what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
The world would be a better place with more Hitchens.
And fewer Tureks.
Agreed
creation, conscious, and Christ is a witness to God. What? So, things you can't get a answer or definition from? Convenient indeed.
The list used to be a lot longer, but as science has investigated the world around us we have discovered many falsehoods in the Bible. There's not much left.
(For anyone who's heard the phrase 'God of the gaps', this is what it's referring to. Religious people that attribute anything human kind doesn't understand to a God. This of course shifts over time as we discover more about our world).
The guy tossed up a word salad.
I was raised in an extemely religious family and was the only one among them to question what was taught/ preached -- indoctrinated more like. The guy on the stage with the laughingly absurd "proof of evidence" reminds me of an older brother. I can attest there's no getting through to the religious folks. They see what they wish to see and expect the rest of us to agree.
Exactly
That was like an elephant versus an ant. Show us your god, Turek. Better yet, try to explain why it unnecessarily hides from us.
What an intelligent man, and courageous thinker and speaker. The world misses him, and we need someone to carry on in his stead.
"I won't take a minute to ask."
*Proceeds to take two minutes to ask.
Got to love Hitch.
The man's intellect was head and shoulders above most, if only there were more like hitch
god gave a secret to a maggot minded , starved fanatic crew ha ha , very well played sir
@Jazzkeyboardist1 So what? I've made mistakes in judgement before too. And I suspect you have not always been 100% correct in every decision you ever made.
That in NO way implies he is wrong about all subjects - especially ones he has studied so intently.
@Jazzkeyboardist1 And Hitchen's position was apparently what he felt was morally correct, given the information available about the Iraq situation. As it happens, he had been a declared pacifist, and only after 9/11 did he change his position, believing, as many did, that we had an obligation to defend Democracy against terrorists. In fact, ".. In the 2004 election, he very slightly favored the incumbent Republican President George W. Bush or was neutral and in 2008 he favored the Democratic candidate Barack Obama..." All of which suggest someone who examines the current situation and them makes a decision based on the facts available.
As for testifying against Clinton, his 'testimony' had nothing to do with sexuality. Clinton's staff and supporters had testified that they had nothing to do with the 'smear' campaign being waged against Lewinsky in order to lower her credibility. Hitchens and several others submitted affidavits that they had been approached and asked by Clinton staffers and supporters to spread these falsehoods against Lewinsky. Nothing to do with sexuality, but a lot to do with honesty.
Now I suggest that instead of stamping your feet and yelling, you should actually learn something from Hitchens - do some research into actual facts, and then make an independent decision as to what you will support. But never, ever denigrate the right of someone else to make their own decisions based on the facts, and try to avoid name-calling and petty comments.
God gives you what you desire...
This is the moment when you would expect god to join in the conversation and say:
'excuse me, this Hitchens guy is not getting what he desires, that one is going well down to hell, and you Turek, you're fired'
go on ! disprove the existence of unicorns !
"It won't take a minute to ask" - 2 minutes later He's quoting poetry 😂 Got to love the Hitch.
I'd like to see an argument for religion stronger than "somebody said so."
Or, because it says so in the bible. It's true because someone said so...
That's all they have
Am I hearing this right? "Sacrifice of atonement"? That is practically impossible. No one can die for the sins of another, no one! Not even the most saintly person can do that. God or no God, life does not work that way. Taking full responsibility for ones own action (or inaction) only can do that. Otherwise, all it actually and factually does is to continue to keep men in chains. And if there is a God he/she knows it, too. And no manmade religious dogma, Christian or any other, can change that basic fact of life.
RIP Hitch you legacy WILL go on.
"THERE IS NO PEACE, SAITH MY GOD, TO THE WICKED." (JESUS CHRIST TO HIS PROPHET ISAIAH IN THE SAME BOOK 57:21)
OMG. That evil look and refrain at the end of the video: "God gives you that which you desire". This after Christopher espoused a desire to be free from coercive ideology including an afterlife. Seems like something out of a horror show and illuminates the inherent evil in dogmatic religion. These holier than thou and love thy neighbor practitioners of the faith will not shed a tear or bat an eye at your misfortune if they can be convinced to believe that god is OK with it all. What the sociopathic defender of superstition was saying was this: "The truth and the way to redemption is on my side and to hell with you if you doubt me. If you do, eternal suffering is your just reward."
This is one of Turek's more reasonable moments. Usually, when his opponent begins dismantling his arguments, he'll begin shouting them louder and louder, as if that makes them more convincing.
Hitch just kicked his ass
2:04…” you cant disprove that there is a god”…. Well no, just like you cant disprove any other evidence-free claims such as sasquatch, fairies, alien abduction, the loch ness monster etc…. Atheism doesnt need to prove or disprove a thing. The person or group making the huge supernatural claims needs to come up with the evidence.
Evidence of God the Creator: All of creation; nonphysical soul and mind; design information in all physical things.
The physical brain continuously creates the mind. The soul (you) and mind have no weight, volume, mass, temperature, etc., and can’t be isolated to perform functions as electricity can.
Atheists believe God has to be in creation to be believed.
The evil created by people disconnected from living to honor God prove faith in God is much better than atheism.
Hitch is Absolutely Correct!!!
ahh correct about the manmade religion atheism or is he so stubid that he even dont know that atheism is a religion like he dont know anything about history of mankind?
As long as we're afraid of death, we'll hang on to these inventions.
This, to me, is the best, clearest and most succinct point that Hitchens has ever made about religion and how it's about power over others who don't "believe".
Nelson, it is the LOSS of power over the ones that do not believe and being shown for what they are, nasty fairy tale spreaders. Being found out is what makes them mad!
Barbara you're preaching to the choir here, my brother-in-law's family are all Mormon and the things that these people believe just leave me speechless, as they seem to have NO curiosity at all as to how things in the natural world actually function. These people walk around in a miasma of ghosts and invisible "prophets". It's enough to make a cat laugh.
I think it's more about power over those who DO believe.