I can attest to the power of Pluto from experience. My ascendant is exactly conjuct Pluto and Pluto has made either squares or conjunctions with all of my natal planets throughout my life with tumultuous results. Almost always painful but thankfully some of them quite worth it. I am really quite exhausted from it. I feel like Kenny from South Park.
Same here. Pluto conjunct my ascendant, the Saturn/ pluto conjunction if 2020 squared my natal pluto & conjuncted my IC. Pluto transits always hit hard.
Not sure if it’s been commented already but if you look at the Venetia Burney Phair’s birth chart and compare it to the day she came up with the name Pluto, you’ll see not only was her natal Pluto sharing a house with her natal sun but also Pluto was exactly conjunct her natal sun when she named it 👀
First off, I commend any podcaster that acknowledges his audio engineer in the background. Secondly, the end blew my mind when _the long haired one_ suggested Pluto is a mirror to ourselves in the "negative" sense. Very Jungian and very intuitive to my ears.
Hey guys, great episode. As a 9th whole sign Virgo Pluto conjunct then Sun and Moon in Libra in 10th, Stellium of Mars/Mercury/Neptune in 11th house scorpio and Asc/Saturn Jupiter in Cap, I've had Pluto conjunctions on all my personal planets from the 70's til now. The qualities were - as a teen , breakdown but new beginnings as a runaway, 10th whole sign house conjunctions, great career advancement based on prior deep nerd-dom. Pluto Crossed my ascendant in 2020 with the pile up in Cap. I experiencednlots of close personal death and illness, lost my entire family of origin, lots of close friends on the 27 cardinal degree also experiencing strong death and hopeful rebiture. I'm interested in Pluto moving into air signs but maybe I'll miss the power ups? Not the combo with Saturn but.... My utter immersion in astrology kicks up when the conjunctions perfect.
The transiting south node is approaching my natal Pluto at 1deg Sag. I had a dream a couple nights ago in which I saw my birth chart with transiting Pluto and the nodes. When the SN hit my Pluto, the planet was "deactivated" and then suddenly transiting Pluto (which is currently conjunct my MC/Neptune/Venus in Capricorn) "woke up" with an explosion of energy - like shooting a gun of confetti onto my MC. It is also worth noting that the upcoming SN solar eclipse on Dec 4th at 12deg Sag is going to happen when the SN is in exact conjunction with my natal Pluto. This is giving me an entirely new perspective on how certain transits can "activate" other areas of your chart. So.. yeah. I'm here to learn more about Pluto. Much love!
What is said at 1:12:00 is the reason I love astrology. Astrology goes where science won't. Pluto being demoted -- After something hard, difficult, dark comes out into the light and is either properly dealt with or swept under the rug, either way, as time goes on it becomes more and more difficult to talk about it. It disappears, its gravity gets downplayed, the purpose it served has shifted so much that it is not recognized as what it used to be. Can apply especially to working with the shadow in Jungian psychology. Also loved how pluto's signification for desire and being a digger got related to consumerism, the need to have more now in the U.S. and obsession. I frickin love Pluto. These aspects of myself exist without astrology and to be able to be cognizant of them, channel it into something productive using astrology is great. Pluto is transiting my first house right now and BEFORE knowing that I noticed much more of a slippery slope lock-jawing onto things for example a tiny detail while creating a graphic or playing a game or observing people and getting stuck there, obsessed. In terms of crisis/transformation I had new information come to light that damaged my idea of who I am - personality - and had to rebuild. When I saw the transit it gave me more power to step back. I could go on for pages about Pluto and I'm just a year in to astrology. "It's a mirror to ourselves." "By the act of naming it and giving it that it becomes that." Seriously fantastic conversation. Thank you so much.
I am pluto rising and my whole life has been a tremendous transformation of ego. Continous births and deaths. It seems like pluto is the chart ruler so far. Can't ignore pluto at all. It's the soul of my chart. I think people who don't have pluto at prominent places don't feel it's effect because pluto is deep unconscious leading factor and one who hasn't aware of his own intuitions or deep emotions, Can't feel plutos effect directly.
This was in my recommended, and it is fascinating to hear the 2020 plans for September back then, that looking at it now seems so funny to me as we are still knee deep in our pandemic. I hope this convention they had planned can still happen in the future.
The great conjunction happened Jan 12, 2020 I think, and back then, the virus was still contained in China. It didn't make it to North America till early March. And as far as I know, all astrologers knew it was going to be a huge deal, but nobody knew what it was going to bring.
Things that I relate to Pluto tend to have a tangible symbolism, but intangible quality as well as a paradoxical theme of permanence and impermanence. Scabs, specifically relating to the healing process and pain (temporary) which is mostly unseen and can leave scars (permanent). Pluto moves slowly, you can pick your scabs, but you cannot expedite the healing process. A snake shedding its skin, similar to the butterfly analogy. Shedding of the skin or chrysalis stage is an impermanent slow process, but once its done there's no going back it gives permanent results. Another is emotions, they are temporary, but feelings can have a profound impact on us. We feel them in the tangible body, but cannot see them. Traumatic events can actually change our neural pathways, we don't see the change but we feel it. Sometimes Pluto seems like a portal through dimensions. It exists, but it doesn't. It's there, but cannot be explained. It's difficult to prove or define. I think that is exactly what Pluto wants to be.
Kenneth brings an important argument: how do we derive meaning from Pluto and establish some notions that are subsequently accepted as facts. But a greater question would be: shouldnt this be applied to ALL of astrology interpretations? In other words, is astrology well-researched? Are all attributes about Venus or Mars set in stone? If so why? because our elders had their own reference that we now follow and take for granted? Did ancient astrologers perform appropriate research about the significance of planets that would stand today's research standards for us to rely on them in full confidence? Is the thema mundi enough of a reference because it looks "neat" and well organized? Certainly that does not hold any weight scientifically. We can argue that nothing in nature is perfectly symmetrical, including orbits or calendars. We may look for a perfect symmetrical order, but is it really there the way we want it? I can personally think about a couple of long-standing associations made for Jupiter and Saturn that I do not concur with in my personal practice. Referring to one of Chris's comments: Should we bring a novice student and tell them Jupiter is a malefic and advise them to be very cautious about its influence lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy? That would be a worthy research. My point is, was it really fair to focus this discussion specifically on Pluto when these arguments could/should be made about the rest of the planets and astrology as a whole. Pluto takes the bullet again ;)
Signification reductionism (Aries = Mars = 1st house, Taurus = Venus = 2nd, etc) is one of the issues that pointed me toward semantic field analysis (and one of the reasons why I was so interested in Schmidt's work). I wanted to see if it was possible to philosophically nail down meanings well enough to move past risk factors or material causation into the realm of efficient causes. So far I don't think astrology can be said to be an efficient cause of any event any more than the hour hand hitting the 5 pm mark on the clock face causes rush hour, but it is useful to note such occurrences because life isn't random.
Except rush hour isn’t always 5pm or always happens on weekdays. Astrology is more precise if and only if it’s properly used. For example, if the planets and constellations have any causal influence at all then tropical astrology must be thrown out as pseudoscience as it does not correspond to the celestial bodies. Further, planetary days and hours must also be tossed out as they do not correspond to the planets. Additionally, as someone performing rigorous experiments in planetary talismanic magic, I can sympathize with the desire for ever increasing sharpness of concepts and explicit rigor in experimentation. You may have heard about the connection between psi events and local sidereal time. Specifically, the claim is that remote viewing experiments are up to 400% more accurate when the Milky Way is rising. I can’t confirm the veracity of this claim but I’m experimenting with rising times. Specifically, in talismanic magic, the best times to construct the talisman is when the planet is rising in sign, culminating in sign, rising in exaltation, or culminating in exaltation. If rising times were significantly more effective than I can possibly point to local sidereal time and the rising Milky Way galaxy as a potential causal factor for success.
Oh how I used to feel the same way until one astrologer ( I’d had 4 readings from others at that point) completely blew me away. A really good astrologer will be able to tell you accurately about so many events in your past that you will have little room for doubt.
@@fractalpilgrim1035 I've been an astrologer since the mid 1970's. I was studying with Robert Schmidt at Project Hindsight more than 10 years before Chris Brennan showed up. Correlation does not equal causation. The error that everyone makes is that because we find that astrology works so well, that it must be something close to an efficient cause. This is because most people make the mistake thinking that life is random or would be random (such as scientific skeptics) given lack of causation. The reality is that these correlations do exist in spades and that life is full of these coincidences that are set theoretic semantic fields that have field overlap. This does not mean that the astrology is "correct" in a causal model. We know this is true because these models must necessarily have been made up in the past. It matters the integrity with which these models have been made up which is why I favored Schmidt's principled philosophical approach to restoring the damage done to the subject over the centuries. Some (like Chris Brennan) objected to this approach saying that Schmidt was "making things up" that didn't or never existed in the texts. This may be true to a some extent, but the project was never meant to be a "pedantic pritchard" analysis.
@@trixy8669 re: Planetary days and hours being tossed out... surely, since you are someone who does planetary magic, you could entertain the idea that having our entire framework of time named after the planets is extremely ritualistic and probably much more of a powerful and binding ritual than sitting down and chanting some planetary hymns. By "entering Monday" we are in a way entering a Lunar temple, except not by choice. Both the day and the temple are abstractions, nothing to do with aspects to your chart or whatever but both are ritualistic and magical. Someone built the temple, so it's a Lunar place. Someone decided our entire framework of time relates to the planets, and we follow this system and so we are ritualistically bound to it.
As someone newish to astrology, I kept waiting for the four of you to give us your keywords for the outer planets. That never happened. The discussion was interesting, but you all effectively kept your actual meanings of the outer planets secret from the rest of us for the entire episode. Is there any chance you could post the four of your meanings of the outer planets in the comments below? Sometimes I think you need a panel member that is newer to astrology to ask the questions that some members of the audience (those newer to astrology) want answered.
Pluto is the unconscious, psychological deep dives, intimacy, secrets, all things buried underground, or things hidden under the surface, flirtiness, sex, and death. When it's poorly aspected, it can lead to ugly fights, hatred, shame, exposing someone's faults publically, danger, rape, violent crime, all things sinister. Pluto brings up the ugly stuff festering under the surface so it can be looked at, dealt with, and healed. Which is why it's also related to transformation. Think of 2020 and 2021 as a big volcanic eruption of Pluto, exposing the latent racism in America, the poor economy in the southern United States, the crazy unreasonable rift between Democrat and republican, just all the hatred that has exploded to the surface. This is an iconic Pluto moment. See also 1:20:55
interesting point. I am a professional astrologer but I like to share my knowledge and thoughts about it in a way that everyone is able to understand, specially the beginners. and even tho I love the content of the podcast, I feel like they talk in a way that is very unrelatable and use way too much unnecessary technical therms.
Fair point, but I would have liked to hear these particular speakers meanings. Of course we can always look up some random definitions/meanings posted by others, but that would not tell me these speakers meanings. Perhaps a follow up video about WHAT the meanings are could be a topic of a future video.
I'm surprised the topic of Pluto's inclination to the ecliptic wasn't debated. The variable amount of time it spends in each zōdion is extremely questionable.
I was fascinated by the question of why Pluto seems to be much more easily understood by the 'newer generation'. I noticed that Pluto was discovered in Cancer and is now passing through Scorpio giving its first trine to its discovery chart. Could this earmark a generational moment where its significations become more apparent and we discover more about it? In general, could aspects of the outer planets' discovery charts to their transit location also give indications of our experience of them collectively?
Demoting Pluto does NOT diminish Pluto’s role. Pluto being demoted is symbolic of the time it was demoted. And I think there was a tremendous amount of confusion and out and out desertion going on. There is always the need to look at things from different vantage points.
To me what I have percieved about Pluto, is that it amplifies towards inside, inwards. Everything, inner power, inner perceptions, grounding, perception of reality that then feels like crisis and so on. It is a small Planet distant from the Sun, it has to build on the inside, make his stand in solar sistem from having emence gravity (amplifying itself toward inside), density, thats why it is also slow, its hard to roll smth that is heavy on inside although very small. I have mine on MC in Scorpio and I could really feel his extreme effect when transiting my 12H which contains Sun Uranus and Neptun. Amplifying towards inside makes enormous pressure and thus the transformation from the inside. Like nuclear reaction, it is about the nucleus, the most inner thing. Basic chemistry/alchemy
I’m at 1:50:50 into this podcast. It occurs to me hearing you talk about Pluto that the real question for us is: can/will transform itself? And perhaps because something different different from what we now know? It sounds like it’s already doing it…
Something I'd like to add to this discussion, what kept coming to my mind throughout this discussion was that Pluto seems to signify polarization, interestingly the polarization filter was invented the year before pluto of 1929. Also if we really wanted to stick to western naming conventions Pluto's significance seems more in line with Persephone having significance withe both Aries and Libra as the equinox signs.
I enjoyed this so much. I'm fairly new to your videos and realizing what a baby I am to the knowledge of astrology even though I have read books on the subject for the past 50 plus years. I love the depth of your knowledge. I'm looking forward to listening to the podcasts you mentioned on responses to criticisms by scientists/skeptics and religious criticism. I hope they are still available. Thank you for these videos.
Thanks! Here are the first two episodes that Sam and I did together, which were mentioned at the top of this episode: theastrologypodcast.com/2015/09/23/responses-to-scientific-criticisms-of-astrology/ theastrologypodcast.com/2015/10/12/responses-to-religious-criticisms-of-astrology/
Ended up back here preparing myself for Pluto in Aquarius. Leisa was so good in this episode 🤍 I would love to hear more on outer planets and Profections. I’m going into a 12th house profection soon. Natal Jupiter and lot of spirit there. Jupiter and Uranus transiting 🙏🏽
What has always frustrated me with topics like this is that various astrologers read astrology for different reasons with different goals- So there shouldn’t even be an argument when everyone can be right simultaneously. It’s like if I was using playing cards to read tarot and someone got upset about it because I wasn’t using playing cards correctly to play games. It’s the same item being used for a different purpose. That’s what the Pluto/outer planet conversation always sounds like to me. You can read astrology like a calendar of events and get specifics OR you can read the planets like tarot cards to get information from spirits/deities. And neither has to be wrong. If you are reading for specifics then having empirical evidence makes sense. That’s not really important if you don’t want specifics - like if you are asking spirit guides for advice. And then the argument is “well then anything could mean anything”. Yes! If you are doing divination then yes- the guides decide. It’s just like reading tarot, tea leaves, charms, whatever. That shouldn’t step on the toes of astrologers who read for specific events. I can see how different uses for something with the same name can be annoying. But I feel like the terms “traditional” and “modern” are fine enough qualifiers. And they don’t have to be in conflict. I wish we could just acknowledge the different uses and just coexist and learn from each other.
The coloration of Pluto looks like a bruise to me. I love the analogy that even a decaying corpse can be used as a different form of energy for the other living creatures around it. Pluto’s surface is almost pure nitrogen. Corpses are known to release more nitrogen. & nitrogen/nitrate is necessary for good replenishing soil. That’s why Inanna has Tammuz take her place in the realm of Ereshkigal. The energy taken has to replace something of equal value. Yes, it can be scary and unpleasant, but it can also be beautiful.
perhaps it’s more self awareness today then years ago (answering the question about how there could be such a vast difference in the perception of the planets).
31:00- yes Leisa, that's how it was sounding to me too. Pluto is the unconscious, and how many of our grandparents and great-grandparents from the war years knew how to talk about the unconscious? It's something that's been unpeeled over the last century, with the rise of the hippy movement (LSD, drugs, people having spiritual experiences outside the church), and the human potential movement (Allan Watts, etc) and then with our current blending of western culture with eastern spirituality like Buddhism, meditation, etc. Look at India and vedic astrology- they don't have as much of an emphasis on the individual like we do here in the west (Reformation, priesthood of all believers, Liberalism), so they don't really understand ANY of the outer planets. Doesn't mean they're not obvious to us though.
1:50:25 While the astronomer who can name the object he discovered is looking for a name via mythologies, he is taking in current events, so when the mythology coincides with the event the name is discovered.
I heard Rudhyar speak recently of a TH-cam clip where he defined humanity itself as simply an organ within the greater organism of ta solar or soul consciousnesses, inner and outer vibrational frequencies, where the specific planets in solar systems reflect the inner and outer, shallow and primordial nature of that living being.....where it must inevitably reveal itself to itself on this long long journey to god knows where ....
I love the word “transformation”. I understand the idea of using “crisis” since I do think that is a common thread with Pluto but I don’t think of all Scorpio/Pluto change as crisis. I have a lot of Scorpio related themes in my chart and my whole life I’ve just felt like I change into a different version of myself at various intervals. And it definitely wasn’t always part of a crisis- sometimes it would just happen and whoops I’m new now. Also it sounds like splitting hairs to me- some people will want more specific language but not everyone does. If I said “transformation” and someone wanted more info I would just elaborate. But again, sometimes change just happens.
I am loving your videos, Chris. I just found you online but had already read your book. I was honored to have a reading with Rob Hand, and I have Pluto high in the sky as part of a Grand Square with Jupiter Rising, the Moon Setting, and Chiron down below. Rob included Chiron as it was doing something important in my nativity. He was very helpful. Oh, and I have Scorpio Rising :)
I’ve heard Pluto described as the ego-breaker or ego destroyer. Whichever house/sign it is placed in is where our ego gets crushed, encouraging (or uncomfortably forcing) growth. This also applies to when Pluto transits planets and sensitive points in the chart. This might illustrate the significance of Pluto’s demotion in 2006, as a breaking of Pluto’s ego. It went from being recognized as a planet for decades to suddenly being less than a planet and having to deal with that ego blow.
I guess i heard something similar... pluto transform but it's done working with neptune transit dissolving the ego. I don't want to bored u with details but it happen to me personally with Uranus was getting ready to leave out of Aries. Uranus definitely got the ball rolling to help me to start spiritualizing and do my natal pluto first house work. I guess that's how the last three outer planets work together. Also i heard just how we deny pluto as a planet.... wherever pluto is in our chart is where we deny things of ourselves
@@AS-eq2qm I think all the 3 outers work on ego dissolution with Uranus challenging our cultural conditioning, Neptune undermining any goal-oriented ego driven undertakings offering us instead the opportunity to serve others, and Pluto (perhaps along with Orcus and Ixion and other Plutinos) seals the deal by offering us the opportunity to develop authentic spiritual power through total surrender to and transcendence of fear. Pauline Stone in her book The Astrology of Fate calls Uranus the gateway to Universal Mind, Neptune the Gateway to Universal Love and Pluto the gateway to Universal Power. I really like these interpretations. I too have a first house Pluto and would love to hear more about your Pluto work.
I get to do my favorite thing because of the Pluto conjunct mars and Venus, I get excited about it but it happens on its own. Mr. Self Destruct by nine inch nails is specifically pluto. Next, I kind of agree that it being downgraded means nothing but it does also mean we’re interpreting too much in it where it may be just harder to understand so too much gets thrown at it. The pattern I see is more like a destroyer and liberator which fits death and rebirth. I would hold short on shadow because all outer planets would likely fall under collective unconscious where there’s something more complex happening. Jung viewed the anima/us as shadow but that turned out much more complex. Plus, I always enjoyed Jung stories about his therapies where he’d bring out what you’d call the Pluto aspect which is probably why it’s so hard to understand. With me, you wouldn’t notice it until you do and you definitely (without any doubt) know it. It can be sensed, but you really know it when you see it. Just find someone with a strong Pluto placement and follow them on social media very closely. I disagree with one thing because I’ll always have a special place in my heart for Becca Tarnas for having me notice it; yes, it’s like a little Gollum. It’s also not wrong, it’s just if it’s not understood it’ll tear you apart and some have it stronger than others which is both highly self destructive and also powerful if understood. With it being generational it can be cultural norms we look back on in horror while having a cultural norm equally horrific. A connection, William S. Burroughs is author I adore and there’s a similarity of obsession with control be it an unconscious self control and/or breaking from societal controls which brings a taboo character. It may not be sex, but sexual addiction or how sex is used to control others. It may not exactly be death, but how fear of death controls us. It can encompass a lot while not being as big as we think. It’s also fitting they sort of believe the real Pluto is a Neptune sized planets behind Pluto we can’t see which is totally Pluto there. Higher octave of mars, I kind of agree there because it’s a more “feminine” mars or the yin/yang which is actually a better explanation. A strong Pluto may control you where it may come close to or even kill you until you’re liberated from controls. But, follow a strong Pluto and you may see it sneak out with “no one likes you, they’ll only betray you, no one loves you…” which is that inner Gollum which isn’t completely wrong but that Pluto tide to self destroy is kicking in. Cosmos and Psyche is officially owned, I’ll see what Tarnas says and see if my gauge is similar. There’s something they did with Saturn which was my focus this weekend after having Jupiter pop out with the self care episode, I decided to revisit my Jupiter synchronicity to really pin down why my Jupiter in cancer 11th hasn’t come back with my money yet. 😜 a vedic read reminded me Saturn (not just in my natal but all) governs over Jupiter in terms of material manifestation. The relationship with my Jupiter and Saturn is the delay, that’s a service to the underprivileged placement. Humor since this made me revisit the downward spiral album, when friends had kids into Frozen I’d poke fun that that album syncs with the story. Let It Go and The Becoming were the same song, when Elsa gets chased out of the kingdom it fits march of the pigs. Etc… it’s actually just the monomyth. Synchronicity, when Leonard Cohen died prior to the election I just knew (it isn’t politically preferential, the end result stays the same) things were going to be bad because Cohen had a resurgence being on the Natural Born Killers Soundtrack; mainly his song The Future which is creepy listening to now. But the NIN song Burn is the big one which would be the escalation towards our Pluto return. It also fits as the Let It Go parallel.. 🥳 Pluto return! It’s just fire instead of ice. Today, I woke up to a story from CNN where a preacher died and the headline was gloating he died of covid and was anti vaccine, celebrating the death of perceived enemies is totally so Pluto. Was all “oh, we’re doing this now and it’s completely fine? Okay.” I 😍Pluto. It’s interesting to look at Reznor’s chart and see he writes concept albums where each character version of himself dies and is reborn in the next concept album.
Considering the myth of castration of Ouranos we can see that this is also relevant to understanding the uranus archetypal principle in astrology especially I believe to the dynamics of the first movement. From a jungian perspective, ouranos myth it should be kept in mind although ostensibly about cosmological creation is to be interpreted in psychological terms as relating to the emergence and development of consciousness. Seen in this context the myth of Ouranus describes what happens to each of us during the course of psychological development, when the Uranus principle of unbridled freedom, characteristic of the youth of an adolescence of both individuals and the human race as a whole, is effectively castrated, as it were, by the civilised order of the world, by the practical necessities of living, by the laws and the morality of one social group. Instinctual freedom is brought to an end by the Saturnian principle that is chronos and as a result, there occurs, according to myth, a creative impregnation of the sea and the Earth. What has been suggested here is that through its encounter with the limitation and restraint imposed by this saturnian order the Uranus principle is elevated from a lower mode of expression (instinctual freedom but devoid of any structural purpose) to a higher one (creative inspiration innovation brilliance and so forth now directed to useful ends within the social order). Considering the Ouranos myth more closely then we can consider that although as Tarnas points out the archetypalprincipal Uranus does not resemble resemble the character of the God Ouranos, the myth featuring ouranos is still relevant to understanding how the astrological archetypal principal manifests in human experience in that the myth illuminates the psychodynamics of the relationship of the planetary archetypes Uranus and Saturn. For this reason the hypothesis of a connection between the names of the planets and the mythic Association remains valid.
Great episode!! Thank you guys!! It's actually been on my mind last months how valid is what I am learning? My earthy side wants to have solid proof through practice, since theory is one thing and practice is another. Also there are quite a few POVs! Anyways, Pluto is approaching my natal Mercury 🤓.. crossing my fingers it is for the better!..eeh..transformation? ))
When Pluto went over my Ascendant, into my first house and over my Moon in Scorpio, it was a hell to go through and at the end of the cycle my Mother died at my Saturn Return. When Pluto opposed my Sun in Cancer my Father died -Pluto is potent and so impressive. It is tough -it takes you through necessary facing of repressions and unattended issues in life to transform you so you can become the True You!. Stripping away all the dross! But I still fear Pluto a bit, but I also love it -Pluto is amazing but I guess I would say that Scorpio Rising, Scorpio Moon Cancer Sun (Sun in 8th/9th depending on house system used). Pluto was only demoted by astronomers because of an admin crisis -Too much data to store! They needed to rearrange things so their system can work under the massive amount of data. Second concern they tried to use was to say that Pluto wasn't a real planet because it didn't clear it's own orbital path. Jupiter doesn't either apparently! So they just looked for excuses to demote something, so they could cope with massive amounts of data they needed to store. That's not a meaningful synchronous event -just trivia! Pluto is amazing and is a planet. Anyway the astral component of Pluto is as active and important as the other 8 planets in our solar system. Spiritually Pluto is so important too and totally deserves it's rightful place restored! Thank you
Well transit and signification of the planet itself is one layer. We also have to consider the aspect that Pluto makes. In general, I personally prefer a more neutral description of each planet instead of attach a positive/negative meaning on it. So at the minimum, we all shall agree for Pluto, it's a planet that has strong energy that causes CHANGE when it comes to in contact with other planets or house cusps.
wow, that book cosmic astrology, I have not heard anyone mention Isabel Hickey much on utube, she was my first teacher. pluto 0 degrees virgo , quincunx my ascendant and it just transited my 10 conjunting my moon, oppose my sun and mercury, no doubt of the power of pluto
The concept of the evolution of the soul is actually from Tantric philosophy. That’s not necessarily saying it should be in Astrology but I guess it’s up for debate.
As someone who is learning about Plutos significance in our birth charts… I remember Scientists voted to remove the planet from the solar system… can someone explain?
The first shelf next to the TV on the left is largely modern astrology books, yeah. The books on the right are a mixture of history, philosophy, and religious studies.
I think the power of astrology begins and ends with it being a tool to make you think about the relationships between all things. Hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes and don't think about how it's all interconnected. They say belief is a form of proof, that's a fact. But a fact is not a truth
I belief we as a society need a planet that represent that western mentality on how we deal with our darkness and our spirituality so the astrological community asign that to Pluto and Now is planet Eris in the forefront just like pluto also use to represent that colective archetype. The hindu or Indian system of Nashatras took care of that need in their system to add more planets. Same thing is happening with Numerology. We are creative souls in a world of infinite realities but our need to express our spirituality could be as diverse as planets are in the Universe.😂😂❤
This was in my recommended just now right after I arrived to my family’s home to visit for a few days. My niece, whose sun is conjunct my ascendant, Pluto and Venus in Scorpio- with her sun at 29 degrees Scorpio- when I got into the door with my two dogs- said and pointed without anyone mentioning it- my dogs name, “Pluto!” God, I love it here. She is so intuitive already at 1.5 years. And she absolutely has Pluto dominant in her chart. Her and I also share mercury in Scorpio at the exact same degree. Before she was born- hell, before my sister told me she was pregnant, she came to me in my dreams by symbols of infantile elephants running around the legs of wooden chairs. Maybe two weeks later my sister called and I knew as she was calling what the call was for. We also both have strong Pisces and cancer energy so the intuitive bond is strong. I have Pluto conjunct my ascendant in the 1st house in Scorpio. Everything in my chart, and I mean everything leads back to Pluto in some way. Every planet is aspecting Pluto in some regard or bringing it back to the ascendant stellium in Scorpio. Moon and mars in the 8th. A blessed Jupiter in the 10th but sextile Venus in scorp… Let’s just say I will be writing a book about Pluto, and am living it all my days on earth. Yes- My family is full of scorpions. We are on the high vibration end of Scorpio evolution though I know each of us as individuals have our own dealing with depressive states and our darker sides. It’s what is brought into the light that we are unafraid of. No taboo topic is off limits though it is painful. I truly have a love hate relationship with it here on earth. Hahahaha
I have meditated long and hard on the issue of the synchronicity of Pluto’s “demotion”. I put it in inverse and sort of ironic quotes because my reading of it at the time, in 2006, was that it was an extremely “Plutonian” (in the astrological sense) power-play, by only 3% of the world’s astronomers, to take away Pluto’s planetary status, with what NASA’s head of the Pluto mission, Alan (?) Stern, called “bad science” - which it is. A planet that hasn’t cleared its own orbit? Really? Well, if Pluto hasn’t, then neither has Neptune. I would say the real answer is quite simple and quite elegant - any celestial body rotating around our Sun, but not also rotating around a larger body, but that is large enough to have reached a spherical shape, is a planet. I believe that we are at the End of the Plutonian Era - for a whole bunch of reasons. But Ceres (and Pallas, Juno and Vesta) were all discovered between 1798 and 1806, is my memory of it - and Ceres was the only one that was designated as a planet at the time. It was demoted when Neptune was discovered in 1846. And then Pluto was demoted in 2006. These are the only two planets that have ever been demoted from planetary status to something lesser (as if a “dwarf planet” isn’t a planet). And of course, Ceres and Pluto, in Ancient Greek, Demeter and Hades, are precisely the two deities, along with Persephone (whom many astrologers thought that Eris should have been named), that were central to the Eleusinian Mysteries, the psychedelic entheogenic death-rebirth journeys that were central to Greek spirituality, but also completely secret, revolved around. So the only two planets so far to “die” are both named after two of the three central characters in the Rape of Persephone mythos. The cycle will be complete when both Ceres and Pluto have their full planetary status restored, which I suspect will happen. We now know that Pluto has at least 5 satellites orbiting it - WOW - it’s a solar system in and of itself, even at such an incredibly small size. Pluto and Charon are one of only two examples of the barycenter of gravity being outside of either celestial body (the other being the Sun and Jupiter). This too seems very meaningful to me. That Eris was the first time that many astrologers came out in protest of the naming - and that her name means Strife - this to me shows that there is indeed an evolution of our collective consciousness - we used to simply accept the appellations given to these celestial bodies by the astronomers - the “experts”. Now, we question them, and want a voice in the decision. I believe there was a concerted effort by very Plutonian/(Saturnian) elites, to move the IAU to demote Pluto - because they wanted to constrain our consciousness back to Neptune - back to 1846 and beyond - but not so far beyond as to actually and genuinely include Pluto in our own psyches - such would be to empower each of us to such an extent that we could no longer be treated as children, or sheep, by secretive Plutonian elites. But hey, I’ve got Mercury in Scorpio in the 8th House, partile septile AND in mutual reception with Pluto in Virgo in the Seventh - so of course, I think that way - LOL. Still, I have indeed been giving much thought to the synchronicity and meaning of the so-called demotion of Pluto by a very small percentage of the world’s professional astronomers, at that Prague IAU Conference in 2006.
The age of the person plays into the interpretation as does individual degrees and the degrees and houses of the planets aspecting Pluto. I find the degrees give a sharp focus. I use more than one author. Degrees of the Zodiac by Esther V. L E I N B A C H. Pub. McCoy Publishing Degrees of the Zodiac Symbolized by. C H A R U B E L Pub. The Aries Press Dec 1970.
Pluto is associated with the pituitary gland. Look how small it is and how it effects each person. Much more research needs to be done on the subject. I find I need to use a few disciplines when looking for answers.
‘Maybe we see things about Pluto because we expect to’ - why isn’t that true about all of the planets, then? Is that actually insight or just being argumentative for the sake of argument?
This conversation is long overdue amongst astrologers. Very interesting points made here
I can attest to the power of Pluto from experience. My ascendant is exactly conjuct Pluto and Pluto has made either squares or conjunctions with all of my natal planets throughout my life with tumultuous results. Almost always painful but thankfully some of them quite worth it. I am really quite exhausted from it. I feel like Kenny from South Park.
Same here. Pluto conjunct my ascendant, the Saturn/ pluto conjunction if 2020 squared my natal pluto & conjuncted my IC. Pluto transits always hit hard.
Same. Total transformation of psyche all the time.
Chris Brennan you keep raising the bar - this new presentation is next level! So inspiring thanks!
multiple cameras fuck yeah!
Not sure if it’s been commented already but if you look at the Venetia Burney Phair’s birth chart and compare it to the day she came up with the name Pluto, you’ll see not only was her natal Pluto sharing a house with her natal sun but also Pluto was exactly conjunct her natal sun when she named it 👀
Life's synchronicities never cease to amaze me...
First off, I commend any podcaster that acknowledges his audio engineer in the background.
Secondly, the end blew my mind when _the long haired one_ suggested Pluto is a mirror to ourselves in the "negative" sense. Very Jungian and very intuitive to my ears.
What a fantastic discussion. A privilege to be alive at the same time with all you. Can't wait to see how astrology evolves.
I’m tired of “transformation” too! I love the “crisis” interpretation.
Hey guys, great episode. As a 9th whole sign Virgo Pluto conjunct then Sun and Moon in Libra in 10th, Stellium of Mars/Mercury/Neptune in 11th house scorpio and Asc/Saturn Jupiter in Cap, I've had Pluto conjunctions on all my personal planets from the 70's til now. The qualities were - as a teen , breakdown but new beginnings as a runaway, 10th whole sign house conjunctions, great career advancement based on prior deep nerd-dom. Pluto Crossed my ascendant in 2020 with the pile up in Cap. I experiencednlots of close personal death and illness, lost my entire family of origin, lots of close friends on the 27 cardinal degree also experiencing strong death and hopeful rebiture. I'm interested in Pluto moving into air signs but maybe I'll miss the power ups? Not the combo with Saturn but.... My utter immersion in astrology kicks up when the conjunctions perfect.
The transiting south node is approaching my natal Pluto at 1deg Sag. I had a dream a couple nights ago in which I saw my birth chart with transiting Pluto and the nodes. When the SN hit my Pluto, the planet was "deactivated" and then suddenly transiting Pluto (which is currently conjunct my MC/Neptune/Venus in Capricorn) "woke up" with an explosion of energy - like shooting a gun of confetti onto my MC. It is also worth noting that the upcoming SN solar eclipse on Dec 4th at 12deg Sag is going to happen when the SN is in exact conjunction with my natal Pluto. This is giving me an entirely new perspective on how certain transits can "activate" other areas of your chart. So.. yeah. I'm here to learn more about Pluto. Much love!
What is said at 1:12:00 is the reason I love astrology. Astrology goes where science won't.
Pluto being demoted -- After something hard, difficult, dark comes out into the light and is either properly dealt with or swept under the rug, either way, as time goes on it becomes more and more difficult to talk about it. It disappears, its gravity gets downplayed, the purpose it served has shifted so much that it is not recognized as what it used to be. Can apply especially to working with the shadow in Jungian psychology.
Also loved how pluto's signification for desire and being a digger got related to consumerism, the need to have more now in the U.S. and obsession.
I frickin love Pluto. These aspects of myself exist without astrology and to be able to be cognizant of them, channel it into something productive using astrology is great.
Pluto is transiting my first house right now and BEFORE knowing that I noticed much more of a slippery slope lock-jawing onto things for example a tiny detail while creating a graphic or playing a game or observing people and getting stuck there, obsessed. In terms of crisis/transformation I had new information come to light that damaged my idea of who I am - personality - and had to rebuild. When I saw the transit it gave me more power to step back. I could go on for pages about Pluto and I'm just a year in to astrology.
"It's a mirror to ourselves."
"By the act of naming it and giving it that it becomes that."
Seriously fantastic conversation. Thank you so much.
I am pluto rising and my whole life has been a tremendous transformation of ego. Continous births and deaths. It seems like pluto is the chart ruler so far. Can't ignore pluto at all. It's the soul of my chart. I think people who don't have pluto at prominent places don't feel it's effect because pluto is deep unconscious leading factor and one who hasn't aware of his own intuitions or deep emotions, Can't feel plutos effect directly.
This was in my recommended, and it is fascinating to hear the 2020 plans for September back then, that looking at it now seems so funny to me as we are still knee deep in our pandemic. I hope this convention they had planned can still happen in the future.
It's kind of cringe. I mean, they should've seen those were bad dates.
The great conjunction happened Jan 12, 2020 I think, and back then, the virus was still contained in China. It didn't make it to North America till early March.
And as far as I know, all astrologers knew it was going to be a huge deal, but nobody knew what it was going to bring.
Things that I relate to Pluto tend to have a tangible symbolism, but intangible quality as well as a paradoxical theme of permanence and impermanence. Scabs, specifically relating to the healing process and pain (temporary) which is mostly unseen and can leave scars (permanent). Pluto moves slowly, you can pick your scabs, but you cannot expedite the healing process. A snake shedding its skin, similar to the butterfly analogy. Shedding of the skin or chrysalis stage is an impermanent slow process, but once its done there's no going back it gives permanent results. Another is emotions, they are temporary, but feelings can have a profound impact on us. We feel them in the tangible body, but cannot see them. Traumatic events can actually change our neural pathways, we don't see the change but we feel it. Sometimes Pluto seems like a portal through dimensions. It exists, but it doesn't. It's there, but cannot be explained. It's difficult to prove or define. I think that is exactly what Pluto wants to be.
Kenneth brings an important argument: how do we derive meaning from Pluto and establish some notions that are subsequently accepted as facts. But a greater question would be: shouldnt this be applied to ALL of astrology interpretations? In other words, is astrology well-researched? Are all attributes about Venus or Mars set in stone? If so why? because our elders had their own reference that we now follow and take for granted? Did ancient astrologers perform appropriate research about the significance of planets that would stand today's research standards for us to rely on them in full confidence? Is the thema mundi enough of a reference because it looks "neat" and well organized? Certainly that does not hold any weight scientifically. We can argue that nothing in nature is perfectly symmetrical, including orbits or calendars. We may look for a perfect symmetrical order, but is it really there the way we want it?
I can personally think about a couple of long-standing associations made for Jupiter and Saturn that I do not concur with in my personal practice. Referring to one of Chris's comments: Should we bring a novice student and tell them Jupiter is a malefic and advise them to be very cautious about its influence lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy?
That would be a worthy research. My point is, was it really fair to focus this discussion specifically on Pluto when these arguments could/should be made about the rest of the planets and astrology as a whole. Pluto takes the bullet again ;)
Listened twice since I stumbled upon this yesterday! Great topic! Let's explore each planet in DEPTH!
Signification reductionism (Aries = Mars = 1st house, Taurus = Venus = 2nd, etc) is one of the issues that pointed me toward semantic field analysis (and one of the reasons why I was so interested in Schmidt's work). I wanted to see if it was possible to philosophically nail down meanings well enough to move past risk factors or material causation into the realm of efficient causes. So far I don't think astrology can be said to be an efficient cause of any event any more than the hour hand hitting the 5 pm mark on the clock face causes rush hour, but it is useful to note such occurrences because life isn't random.
Except rush hour isn’t always 5pm or always happens on weekdays. Astrology is more precise if and only if it’s properly used. For example, if the planets and constellations have any causal influence at all then tropical astrology must be thrown out as pseudoscience as it does not correspond to the celestial bodies.
Further, planetary days and hours must also be tossed out as they do not correspond to the planets.
Additionally, as someone performing rigorous experiments in planetary talismanic magic, I can sympathize with the desire for ever increasing sharpness of concepts and explicit rigor in experimentation.
You may have heard about the connection between psi events and local sidereal time. Specifically, the claim is that remote viewing experiments are up to 400% more accurate when the Milky Way is rising. I can’t confirm the veracity of this claim but I’m experimenting with rising times. Specifically, in talismanic magic, the best times to construct the talisman is when the planet is rising in sign, culminating in sign, rising in exaltation, or culminating in exaltation.
If rising times were significantly more effective than I can possibly point to local sidereal time and the rising Milky Way galaxy as a potential causal factor for success.
Oh how I used to feel the same way until one astrologer ( I’d had 4 readings from others at that point) completely blew me away. A really good astrologer will be able to tell you accurately about so many events in your past that you will have little room for doubt.
@@fractalpilgrim1035 I've been an astrologer since the mid 1970's. I was studying with Robert Schmidt at Project Hindsight more than 10 years before Chris Brennan showed up. Correlation does not equal causation. The error that everyone makes is that because we find that astrology works so well, that it must be something close to an efficient cause. This is because most people make the mistake thinking that life is random or would be random (such as scientific skeptics) given lack of causation.
The reality is that these correlations do exist in spades and that life is full of these coincidences that are set theoretic semantic fields that have field overlap. This does not mean that the astrology is "correct" in a causal model. We know this is true because these models must necessarily have been made up in the past. It matters the integrity with which these models have been made up which is why I favored Schmidt's principled philosophical approach to restoring the damage done to the subject over the centuries.
Some (like Chris Brennan) objected to this approach saying that Schmidt was "making things up" that didn't or never existed in the texts. This may be true to a some extent, but the project was never meant to be a "pedantic pritchard" analysis.
@@trixy8669 re: Planetary days and hours being tossed out... surely, since you are someone who does planetary magic, you could entertain the idea that having our entire framework of time named after the planets is extremely ritualistic and probably much more of a powerful and binding ritual than sitting down and chanting some planetary hymns. By "entering Monday" we are in a way entering a Lunar temple, except not by choice. Both the day and the temple are abstractions, nothing to do with aspects to your chart or whatever but both are ritualistic and magical. Someone built the temple, so it's a Lunar place. Someone decided our entire framework of time relates to the planets, and we follow this system and so we are ritualistically bound to it.
@@zoidsoft If you're insinuating that astrological phenomena works via synchronicity then I'd probably have to agree.
Great program! Touched on topics I debate internally. 😀
Anyone else feels like a sad time traveler, saying to themselves during intro "no, there won't be people flying in...."?
As someone newish to astrology, I kept waiting for the four of you to give us your keywords for the outer planets. That never happened. The discussion was interesting, but you all effectively kept your actual meanings of the outer planets secret from the rest of us for the entire episode. Is there any chance you could post the four of your meanings of the outer planets in the comments below? Sometimes I think you need a panel member that is newer to astrology to ask the questions that some members of the audience (those newer to astrology) want answered.
Look up The Rulership Book by Rex E. Bills
Pluto is the unconscious, psychological deep dives, intimacy, secrets, all things buried underground, or things hidden under the surface, flirtiness, sex, and death. When it's poorly aspected, it can lead to ugly fights, hatred, shame, exposing someone's faults publically, danger, rape, violent crime, all things sinister. Pluto brings up the ugly stuff festering under the surface so it can be looked at, dealt with, and healed. Which is why it's also related to transformation. Think of 2020 and 2021 as a big volcanic eruption of Pluto, exposing the latent racism in America, the poor economy in the southern United States, the crazy unreasonable rift between Democrat and republican, just all the hatred that has exploded to the surface. This is an iconic Pluto moment.
See also 1:20:55
interesting point. I am a professional astrologer but I like to share my knowledge and thoughts about it in a way that everyone is able to understand, specially the beginners. and even tho I love the content of the podcast, I feel like they talk in a way that is very unrelatable and use way too much unnecessary technical therms.
Fair point, but I would have liked to hear these particular speakers meanings. Of course we can always look up some random definitions/meanings posted by others, but that would not tell me these speakers meanings. Perhaps a follow up video about WHAT the meanings are could be a topic of a future video.
One final reply: I just noticed that the purple banner for the video is entitled “What does Pluot Mean.”
Thank you Chris! Amazing as always
All very great arguments to consider!
I'm surprised the topic of Pluto's inclination to the ecliptic wasn't debated. The variable amount of time it spends in each zōdion is extremely questionable.
loved this discussion, I am new to astrology and learned so much about it's history in under 2 hours! many thanks
I was fascinated by the question of why Pluto seems to be much more easily understood by the 'newer generation'.
I noticed that Pluto was discovered in Cancer and is now passing through Scorpio giving its first trine to its discovery chart. Could this earmark a generational moment where its significations become more apparent and we discover more about it?
In general, could aspects of the outer planets' discovery charts to their transit location also give indications of our experience of them collectively?
Demoting Pluto does NOT diminish Pluto’s role. Pluto being demoted is symbolic of the time it was demoted. And I think there was a tremendous amount of confusion and out and out desertion going on. There is always the need to look at things from different vantage points.
To me what I have percieved about Pluto, is that it amplifies towards inside, inwards. Everything, inner power, inner perceptions, grounding, perception of reality that then feels like crisis and so on. It is a small Planet distant from the Sun, it has to build on the inside, make his stand in solar sistem from having emence gravity (amplifying itself toward inside), density, thats why it is also slow, its hard to roll smth that is heavy on inside although very small. I have mine on MC in Scorpio and I could really feel his extreme effect when transiting my 12H which contains Sun Uranus and Neptun. Amplifying towards inside makes enormous pressure and thus the transformation from the inside. Like nuclear reaction, it is about the nucleus, the most inner thing. Basic chemistry/alchemy
I’m at 1:50:50 into this podcast. It occurs to me hearing you talk about Pluto that the real question for us is: can/will transform itself? And perhaps because something different different from what we now know? It sounds like it’s already doing it…
Something I'd like to add to this discussion, what kept coming to my mind throughout this discussion was that Pluto seems to signify polarization, interestingly the polarization filter was invented the year before pluto of 1929. Also if we really wanted to stick to western naming conventions Pluto's significance seems more in line with Persephone having significance withe both Aries and Libra as the equinox signs.
I enjoyed this so much. I'm fairly new to your videos and realizing what a baby I am to the knowledge of astrology even though I have read books on the subject for the past 50 plus years. I love the depth of your knowledge. I'm looking forward to listening to the podcasts you mentioned on responses to criticisms by scientists/skeptics and religious criticism. I hope they are still available. Thank you for these videos.
Thanks! Here are the first two episodes that Sam and I did together, which were mentioned at the top of this episode:
theastrologypodcast.com/2015/09/23/responses-to-scientific-criticisms-of-astrology/
theastrologypodcast.com/2015/10/12/responses-to-religious-criticisms-of-astrology/
@@TheAstrologyPodcast !!! Thank you for linking the podcast episodes you mentioned!!
@@TheAstrologyPodcast Thank you!
Deep and intense discussion, enjoyed by this person born with Pluto joining the Sun at +1°20'.
Ended up back here preparing myself for Pluto in Aquarius. Leisa was so good in this episode 🤍 I would love to hear more on outer planets and Profections. I’m going into a 12th house profection soon. Natal Jupiter and lot of spirit there. Jupiter and Uranus transiting 🙏🏽
I believe it was Edgar Cayce who said, Pluto’s influence will get stronger with time. Strangely, that seems to be happening.
Interesting format👌very good 👍hope you consider doing similar discussions dedicated to 7 traditional planets from modern and classic perspectives🎉🙏
Watching this 2019 video in summer 2021, after the time warp of 2020. We were so innocent then.
What has always frustrated me with topics like this is that various astrologers read astrology for different reasons with different goals- So there shouldn’t even be an argument when everyone can be right simultaneously.
It’s like if I was using playing cards to read tarot and someone got upset about it because I wasn’t using playing cards correctly to play games. It’s the same item being used for a different purpose. That’s what the Pluto/outer planet conversation always sounds like to me.
You can read astrology like a calendar of events and get specifics OR you can read the planets like tarot cards to get information from spirits/deities. And neither has to be wrong.
If you are reading for specifics then having empirical evidence makes sense. That’s not really important if you don’t want specifics - like if you are asking spirit guides for advice.
And then the argument is “well then anything could mean anything”. Yes! If you are doing divination then yes- the guides decide. It’s just like reading tarot, tea leaves, charms, whatever. That shouldn’t step on the toes of astrologers who read for specific events.
I can see how different uses for something with the same name can be annoying. But I feel like the terms “traditional” and “modern” are fine enough qualifiers. And they don’t have to be in conflict. I wish we could just acknowledge the different uses and just coexist and learn from each other.
The coloration of Pluto looks like a bruise to me. I love the analogy that even a decaying corpse can be used as a different form of energy for the other living creatures around it. Pluto’s surface is almost pure nitrogen. Corpses are known to release more nitrogen. & nitrogen/nitrate is necessary for good replenishing soil. That’s why Inanna has Tammuz take her place in the realm of Ereshkigal. The energy taken has to replace something of equal value.
Yes, it can be scary and unpleasant, but it can also be beautiful.
I was really hoping you would cover this US Pluto return. It deserves it own episode.
I agree with Lisa completely. Thank you for a great debate 🙏🏽
Amazing. Thanks so much!
I love this, you guys. Absolutely love it!
perhaps it’s more self awareness today then years ago (answering the question about how there could be such a vast difference in the perception of the planets).
Nadiya Shah did a talk on Alan Leo at the 2021 Canadian Astrology Conference.
such a great video, thank you!
31:00- yes Leisa, that's how it was sounding to me too.
Pluto is the unconscious, and how many of our grandparents and great-grandparents from the war years knew how to talk about the unconscious? It's something that's been unpeeled over the last century, with the rise of the hippy movement (LSD, drugs, people having spiritual experiences outside the church), and the human potential movement (Allan Watts, etc) and then with our current blending of western culture with eastern spirituality like Buddhism, meditation, etc.
Look at India and vedic astrology- they don't have as much of an emphasis on the individual like we do here in the west (Reformation, priesthood of all believers, Liberalism), so they don't really understand ANY of the outer planets. Doesn't mean they're not obvious to us though.
Amazing content. Ty as always 🌟✨❤️
So glad I found your channel!
1:50:25 While the astronomer who can name the object he discovered is looking for a name via mythologies, he is taking in current events, so when the mythology coincides with the event the name is discovered.
i wonder what happen at 1:00:30 because everyone looked around and smiled.
Fantastic 🎉
I heard Rudhyar speak recently of a TH-cam clip where he defined humanity itself as simply an organ within the greater organism of ta solar or soul consciousnesses, inner and outer vibrational frequencies, where the specific planets in solar systems reflect the inner and outer, shallow and primordial nature of that living being.....where it must inevitably reveal itself to itself on this long long journey to god knows where ....
I love the word “transformation”. I understand the idea of using “crisis” since I do think that is a common thread with Pluto but I don’t think of all Scorpio/Pluto change as crisis. I have a lot of Scorpio related themes in my chart and my whole life I’ve just felt like I change into a different version of myself at various intervals. And it definitely wasn’t always part of a crisis- sometimes it would just happen and whoops I’m new now.
Also it sounds like splitting hairs to me- some people will want more specific language but not everyone does. If I said “transformation” and someone wanted more info I would just elaborate. But again, sometimes change just happens.
It's funny how they were talking about the plans for the ISAR conference on 2020 but Pluto had other plans
I am loving your videos, Chris. I just found you online but had already read your book. I was honored to have a reading with Rob Hand, and I have Pluto high in the sky as part of a Grand Square with Jupiter Rising, the Moon Setting, and Chiron down below. Rob included Chiron as it was doing something important in my nativity. He was very helpful. Oh, and I have Scorpio Rising :)
very good discussion! thank you :)
I’ve heard Pluto described as the ego-breaker or ego destroyer. Whichever house/sign it is placed in is where our ego gets crushed, encouraging (or uncomfortably forcing) growth. This also applies to when Pluto transits planets and sensitive points in the chart. This might illustrate the significance of Pluto’s demotion in 2006, as a breaking of Pluto’s ego. It went from being recognized as a planet for decades to suddenly being less than a planet and having to deal with that ego blow.
I guess i heard something similar... pluto transform but it's done working with neptune transit dissolving the ego. I don't want to bored u with details but it happen to me personally with Uranus was getting ready to leave out of Aries. Uranus definitely got the ball rolling to help me to start spiritualizing and do my natal pluto first house work. I guess that's how the last three outer planets work together.
Also i heard just how we deny pluto as a planet.... wherever pluto is in our chart is where we deny things of ourselves
@@AS-eq2qm I think all the 3 outers work on ego dissolution with Uranus challenging our cultural conditioning, Neptune undermining any goal-oriented ego driven undertakings offering us instead the opportunity to serve others, and Pluto (perhaps along with Orcus and Ixion and other Plutinos) seals the deal by offering us the opportunity to develop authentic spiritual power through total surrender to and transcendence of fear. Pauline Stone in her book The Astrology of Fate calls Uranus the gateway to Universal Mind, Neptune the Gateway to Universal Love and Pluto the gateway to Universal Power. I really like these interpretations.
I too have a first house Pluto and would love to hear more about your Pluto work.
I get to do my favorite thing because of the Pluto conjunct mars and Venus, I get excited about it but it happens on its own.
Mr. Self Destruct by nine inch nails is specifically pluto. Next, I kind of agree that it being downgraded means nothing but it does also mean we’re interpreting too much in it where it may be just harder to understand so too much gets thrown at it. The pattern I see is more like a destroyer and liberator which fits death and rebirth. I would hold short on shadow because all outer planets would likely fall under collective unconscious where there’s something more complex happening. Jung viewed the anima/us as shadow but that turned out much more complex. Plus, I always enjoyed Jung stories about his therapies where he’d bring out what you’d call the Pluto aspect which is probably why it’s so hard to understand.
With me, you wouldn’t notice it until you do and you definitely (without any doubt) know it. It can be sensed, but you really know it when you see it. Just find someone with a strong Pluto placement and follow them on social media very closely. I disagree with one thing because I’ll always have a special place in my heart for Becca Tarnas for having me notice it; yes, it’s like a little Gollum. It’s also not wrong, it’s just if it’s not understood it’ll tear you apart and some have it stronger than others which is both highly self destructive and also powerful if understood. With it being generational it can be cultural norms we look back on in horror while having a cultural norm equally horrific.
A connection, William S. Burroughs is author I adore and there’s a similarity of obsession with control be it an unconscious self control and/or breaking from societal controls which brings a taboo character. It may not be sex, but sexual addiction or how sex is used to control others. It may not exactly be death, but how fear of death controls us. It can encompass a lot while not being as big as we think. It’s also fitting they sort of believe the real Pluto is a Neptune sized planets behind Pluto we can’t see which is totally Pluto there. Higher octave of mars, I kind of agree there because it’s a more “feminine” mars or the yin/yang which is actually a better explanation. A strong Pluto may control you where it may come close to or even kill you until you’re liberated from controls. But, follow a strong Pluto and you may see it sneak out with “no one likes you, they’ll only betray you, no one loves you…” which is that inner Gollum which isn’t completely wrong but that Pluto tide to self destroy is kicking in.
Cosmos and Psyche is officially owned, I’ll see what Tarnas says and see if my gauge is similar. There’s something they did with Saturn which was my focus this weekend after having Jupiter pop out with the self care episode, I decided to revisit my Jupiter synchronicity to really pin down why my Jupiter in cancer 11th hasn’t come back with my money yet. 😜 a vedic read reminded me Saturn (not just in my natal but all) governs over Jupiter in terms of material manifestation. The relationship with my Jupiter and Saturn is the delay, that’s a service to the underprivileged placement.
Humor since this made me revisit the downward spiral album, when friends had kids into Frozen I’d poke fun that that album syncs with the story. Let It Go and The Becoming were the same song, when Elsa gets chased out of the kingdom it fits march of the pigs. Etc… it’s actually just the monomyth. Synchronicity, when Leonard Cohen died prior to the election I just knew (it isn’t politically preferential, the end result stays the same) things were going to be bad because Cohen had a resurgence being on the Natural Born Killers Soundtrack; mainly his song The Future which is creepy listening to now. But the NIN song Burn is the big one which would be the escalation towards our Pluto return. It also fits as the Let It Go parallel.. 🥳 Pluto return! It’s just fire instead of ice. Today, I woke up to a story from CNN where a preacher died and the headline was gloating he died of covid and was anti vaccine, celebrating the death of perceived enemies is totally so Pluto. Was all “oh, we’re doing this now and it’s completely fine? Okay.”
I 😍Pluto. It’s interesting to look at Reznor’s chart and see he writes concept albums where each character version of himself dies and is reborn in the next concept album.
Considering the myth of castration of Ouranos we can see that this is also relevant to understanding the uranus archetypal principle in astrology especially I believe to the dynamics of the first movement. From a jungian perspective, ouranos myth it should be kept in mind although ostensibly about cosmological creation is to be interpreted in psychological terms as relating to the emergence and development of consciousness.
Seen in this context the myth of Ouranus describes what happens to each of us during the course of psychological development, when the Uranus principle of unbridled freedom, characteristic of the youth of an adolescence of both individuals and the human race as a whole, is effectively castrated, as it were, by the civilised order of the world, by the practical necessities of living, by the laws and the morality of one social group. Instinctual freedom is brought to an end by the Saturnian principle that is chronos and as a result, there occurs, according to myth, a creative impregnation of the sea and the Earth.
What has been suggested here is that through its encounter with the limitation and restraint imposed by this saturnian order the Uranus principle is elevated from a lower mode of expression (instinctual freedom but devoid of any structural purpose) to a higher one (creative inspiration innovation brilliance and so forth now directed to useful ends within the social order).
Considering the Ouranos myth more closely then we can consider that although as Tarnas points out the archetypalprincipal Uranus does not resemble resemble the character of the God Ouranos, the myth featuring ouranos is still relevant to understanding how the astrological archetypal principal manifests in human experience in that the myth illuminates the psychodynamics of the relationship of the planetary archetypes Uranus and Saturn. For this reason the hypothesis of a connection between the names of the planets and the mythic Association remains valid.
Great episode!! Thank you guys!! It's actually been on my mind last months how valid is what I am learning? My earthy side wants to have solid proof through practice, since theory is one thing and practice is another. Also there are quite a few POVs! Anyways, Pluto is approaching my natal Mercury 🤓.. crossing my fingers it is for the better!..eeh..transformation? ))
Thank you❤️so very intresting and important
Pluto conjunct scorpio midheaven here. I am glad pluto is going into aquarius tomorrow.
When Pluto went over my Ascendant, into my first house and over my Moon in Scorpio, it was a hell to go through and at the end of the cycle my Mother died at my Saturn Return. When Pluto opposed my Sun in Cancer my Father died -Pluto is potent and so impressive. It is tough -it takes you through necessary facing of repressions and unattended issues in life to transform you so you can become the True You!. Stripping away all the dross! But I still fear Pluto a bit, but I also love it -Pluto is amazing but I guess I would say that Scorpio Rising, Scorpio Moon Cancer Sun (Sun in 8th/9th depending on house system used). Pluto was only demoted by astronomers because of an admin crisis -Too much data to store! They needed to rearrange things so their system can work under the massive amount of data. Second concern they tried to use was to say that Pluto wasn't a real planet because it didn't clear it's own orbital path. Jupiter doesn't either apparently! So they just looked for excuses to demote something, so they could cope with massive amounts of data they needed to store. That's not a meaningful synchronous event -just trivia! Pluto is amazing and is a planet. Anyway the astral component of Pluto is as active and important as the other 8 planets in our solar system. Spiritually Pluto is so important too and totally deserves it's rightful place restored! Thank you
i enjoyed! great episode, thank you!
Well transit and signification of the planet itself is one layer. We also have to consider the aspect that Pluto makes. In general, I personally prefer a more neutral description of each planet instead of attach a positive/negative meaning on it. So at the minimum, we all shall agree for Pluto, it's a planet that has strong energy that causes CHANGE when it comes to in contact with other planets or house cusps.
With affection: lol at Kenneth's surreptitious drink spike at the 1 hour 40 mark - Neptunian signification? Or one of the inner planets? (Great ep
Astronomers have always named the bodies in the heavens. Astronomers are also expressions of creator/creation and the naming has worked out just fine.
wow, that book cosmic astrology, I have not heard anyone mention Isabel Hickey much on utube, she was my first teacher. pluto 0 degrees virgo , quincunx my ascendant and it just transited my 10 conjunting my moon, oppose my sun and mercury, no doubt of the power of pluto
Interesting, thanx!
The concept of the evolution of the soul is actually from Tantric philosophy. That’s not necessarily saying it should be in Astrology but I guess it’s up for debate.
As someone who is learning about Plutos significance in our birth charts… I remember Scientists voted to remove the planet from the solar system… can someone explain?
Great interview!!
i have pluto rising ascendant in Scorpio retrograde in my first house, and pluto trine, i feel like i have been experimented on lol
Are all those books about astrology??
The first shelf next to the TV on the left is largely modern astrology books, yeah. The books on the right are a mixture of history, philosophy, and religious studies.
great talk, thanks
thank you!
I think the power of astrology begins and ends with it being a tool to make you think about the relationships between all things. Hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes and don't think about how it's all interconnected. They say belief is a form of proof, that's a fact. But a fact is not a truth
I belief we as a society need a planet that represent that western mentality on how we deal with our darkness and our spirituality so the astrological community asign that to Pluto and Now is planet Eris in the forefront just like pluto also use to represent that colective archetype. The hindu or Indian system of Nashatras took care of that need in their system to add more planets. Same thing is happening with Numerology. We are creative souls in a world of infinite realities but our need to express our spirituality could be as diverse as planets are in the Universe.😂😂❤
This was in my recommended just now right after I arrived to my family’s home to visit for a few days. My niece, whose sun is conjunct my ascendant, Pluto and Venus in Scorpio- with her sun at 29 degrees Scorpio- when I got into the door with my two dogs- said and pointed without anyone mentioning it- my dogs name, “Pluto!”
God, I love it here. She is so intuitive already at 1.5 years. And she absolutely has Pluto dominant in her chart. Her and I also share mercury in Scorpio at the exact same degree. Before she was born- hell, before my sister told me she was pregnant, she came to me in my dreams by symbols of infantile elephants running around the legs of wooden chairs. Maybe two weeks later my sister called and I knew as she was calling what the call was for.
We also both have strong Pisces and cancer energy so the intuitive bond is strong.
I have Pluto conjunct my ascendant in the 1st house in Scorpio. Everything in my chart, and I mean everything leads back to Pluto in some way. Every planet is aspecting Pluto in some regard or bringing it back to the ascendant stellium in Scorpio. Moon and mars in the 8th. A blessed Jupiter in the 10th but sextile Venus in scorp…
Let’s just say I will be writing a book about Pluto, and am living it all my days on earth.
Yes- My family is full of scorpions. We are on the high vibration end of Scorpio evolution though I know each of us as individuals have our own dealing with depressive states and our darker sides. It’s what is brought into the light that we are unafraid of. No taboo topic is off limits though it is painful. I truly have a love hate relationship with it here on earth. Hahahaha
i think we have to be careful when using the words good & bad. this is part of the issue when interpreting anything mystical
Your on us, Uranus.
I have meditated long and hard on the issue of the synchronicity of Pluto’s “demotion”. I put it in inverse and sort of ironic quotes because my reading of it at the time, in 2006, was that it was an extremely “Plutonian” (in the astrological sense) power-play, by only 3% of the world’s astronomers, to take away Pluto’s planetary status, with what NASA’s head of the Pluto mission, Alan (?) Stern, called “bad science” - which it is. A planet that hasn’t cleared its own orbit? Really? Well, if Pluto hasn’t, then neither has Neptune. I would say the real answer is quite simple and quite elegant - any celestial body rotating around our Sun, but not also rotating around a larger body, but that is large enough to have reached a spherical shape, is a planet. I believe that we are at the End of the Plutonian Era - for a whole bunch of reasons. But Ceres (and Pallas, Juno and Vesta) were all discovered between 1798 and 1806, is my memory of it - and Ceres was the only one that was designated as a planet at the time. It was demoted when Neptune was discovered in 1846. And then Pluto was demoted in 2006. These are the only two planets that have ever been demoted from planetary status to something lesser (as if a “dwarf planet” isn’t a planet). And of course, Ceres and Pluto, in Ancient Greek, Demeter and Hades, are precisely the two deities, along with Persephone (whom many astrologers thought that Eris should have been named), that were central to the Eleusinian Mysteries, the psychedelic entheogenic death-rebirth journeys that were central to Greek spirituality, but also completely secret, revolved around. So the only two planets so far to “die” are both named after two of the three central characters in the Rape of Persephone mythos. The cycle will be complete when both Ceres and Pluto have their full planetary status restored, which I suspect will happen. We now know that Pluto has at least 5 satellites orbiting it - WOW - it’s a solar system in and of itself, even at such an incredibly small size. Pluto and Charon are one of only two examples of the barycenter of gravity being outside of either celestial body (the other being the Sun and Jupiter). This too seems very meaningful to me. That Eris was the first time that many astrologers came out in protest of the naming - and that her name means Strife - this to me shows that there is indeed an evolution of our collective consciousness - we used to simply accept the appellations given to these celestial bodies by the astronomers - the “experts”. Now, we question them, and want a voice in the decision. I believe there was a concerted effort by very Plutonian/(Saturnian) elites, to move the IAU to demote Pluto - because they wanted to constrain our consciousness back to Neptune - back to 1846 and beyond - but not so far beyond as to actually and genuinely include Pluto in our own psyches - such would be to empower each of us to such an extent that we could no longer be treated as children, or sheep, by secretive Plutonian elites. But hey, I’ve got Mercury in Scorpio in the 8th House, partile septile AND in mutual reception with Pluto in Virgo in the Seventh - so of course, I think that way - LOL. Still, I have indeed been giving much thought to the synchronicity and meaning of the so-called demotion of Pluto by a very small percentage of the world’s professional astronomers, at that Prague IAU Conference in 2006.
I volunteer as an expiremental subject in the name of astrology. :D
lol Sam looks so precious.
I wonder how many if these comments will be revisited when the US goes through its Pluto Return
I wonder if there's something like W.E.I.R.D. astrolgy similarly to W.E.I.R.D. psychology going on now in the West?
Ceres is much smaller than Pluto!even though both classified as dwarfs - Ceres 950 diameter - Pluto 2,372 km0- Eris is nearly same size as Pluto
The age of the person plays into the interpretation as does individual degrees and the degrees and houses of the planets aspecting Pluto. I find the degrees give a sharp focus. I use more than one author.
Degrees of the Zodiac by
Esther V. L E I N B A C H.
Pub. McCoy Publishing
Degrees of the Zodiac Symbolized by. C H A R U B E L
Pub. The Aries Press Dec 1970.
It’s very difficult to type certain words because the program refuses to allow it.
1:08:10 This is where things get really inneresting.....
It’s hilarious. Pluto got demoted with Pluto (death of) in Sagittarius (expansive and exploration). Lol
1:12:46 - That's what they do in mathematics hoping that an ignorant student has a chance to solve a problem that no expert can
Can Kenneth stop interrupting Leisa? So disrespectful and obnoxious
Pluto is associated with the pituitary gland. Look how small it is and how it effects each person. Much more research needs to be done on the subject. I find I need to use a few disciplines when looking for answers.
i want the woman to speak more so bad fdsyhfuj
Is this string theory ...?
Pluto signifies placebo effect?! The planet of promotion and demotion.
‘Maybe we see things about Pluto because we expect to’ - why isn’t that true about all of the planets, then? Is that actually insight or just being argumentative for the sake of argument?