Congratulations for your discovery Chris! And all those who made it possible/ collaborated. I'm celebrating with you. Thank you for sharing with us right away!
Thank you both for the detailed review. This discussion is one of the most important in astrology, and it is a good thing, that somebody initiates it. It puzzles me, why is the Equator latitude chosen for the positions of the planets in combination with the rational behind seasons and increasing/decreasing of light/heat? After all, on the Equator the duration of the day is constant through the entire year.
When you guys discussed how no one else has translated... Have you heard of Dr Rumen Kolev? He says that he has an algorithm to explain exaltations, as well as heliacal phases in Babylonian astrology. Apparently he has translated hermetic texts from Arabic too.
@@krisdavies5308 Yes, he spoke about that on the Second European Conference on Astrology. Here's a link to his lecture. facebook.com/watch/live/?v=813702855882671&ref=watch_permalink
17:47 "Exactly 8 years ago" Interesting, sounds like it may have thematically lined up with the last creative Venus shadow/retrograde cycle in Gemini. Thanks a ton for all you two are doing to further astrology and the Hermetic tradition!
Yeah, that Venus retrograde cycle connection was something I was very cognizant of as we were putting this together. Coincidentally, I also started this podcast 8 years ago under the same Venus retrograde in Gemini.
This is very timely because I’m in a third house profection year and I seem to be getting SO many “messages” from Hermès themed sources (Aries rising, Mercury rules my 3rd house). Also, I have an exalted moon in Taurus, so I’m excited to listen. I just received the Hermetic tarot as a gift. Keep up the good work Chris!💫
Loved the discussion here and decided to purchase this translation by Keiji Yamamoto and Charles Burnet. Spend about 2 weeks living and sleeping with this book, and very much worth it. It is now an important link in my library and I owe it to this episode. Great discussion. Thanks.
Just an idea for why Jupiter would be on the ascendant for the exaltation rulership chart but you’re talking about the kingly(or queenly) form of each of the planets. The planet sitting on its throne. So why wouldn’t the greater benefic be the first idea conceived in the chart? The planet of kings. Using the planet on the ascendant as the form being sought after. The body of what’s in question. The Thema mundi is speaking about the great birth of the cosmos which requires the moon as the signifier for birth among other things. The planetary joys being headed by mercury because like Ben said mercury can distinguish between light and dark, masculine and feminine. The planet of analysis but also they’re the fastest (nonluminary) planet which would have to be in charge of something that changes so quickly and is such a precise specific thing. Not to mention it brings to my mind the idea of the messenger needing to know Where a planet is located (house) vs what the planet is acting like (sign). Just a few ideas I had while listening. This talk was extraordinary can’t wait to see what it develops into. Huge fan of both of your work thank you both for sharing it with the world.
Hi Chris! My point of view is the origin of exaltation follows the right direction from ASC to MIdheaven of daily moves of the Sun. The planets follows chaldean order and take their postion moving from cardinal sign. For example: Saturn rules in Capricorn and he moves right to Libra, Jupiter rules in Saggitarius moves right to Cancer, Mars rules in Aries and he moves to Capricorn, Sun rules in Leo and he goes to Aries. Important: Cardinal signs posititons take first, and it follows the rest. Direction turns left if we define the planets in fall, but chaldean order and priviledges of cardinal signs remain the same! :) Check on this, it works! ;)
So exciting, thank you both, such a delight🙏 The thing that makes me a bit cautious is the timing of the release of this new material: especially the Neptune square Mercury in Gemini and the nodes of the moon starting their journey towards their exaltation degrees... Might the polarities mentioned by Rhetorius of Egypt regarding the role of the moon be another piece of the puzzle in regards to the signs where there are no planets exalted? Schmidt had some wild theories, and there is an unfortunate lack of historical evidence to fine tune this... Anyways! May more information come to light 🌈✨ thank you both for shining your brightness onto this☀️🌛🌜
Yes, I do think that the polarities mentioned by Rhetorius did play a role, and this is actually mentioned at one point later in the chapter by Abu Ma'shar/Hermes briefly. It also came up explicitly when Hermes was contrasting the dry nature of Mercury with the wet nature of Venus, so part of the focus in the original text may have been partially predicated on elementally-based oppositions.
I skimmed this again, I’ll go fuller into it when I do a patreon deep dive. My detour from astrology went back to astrology in that I detoured to look at a repeated symbol synchronicity (plus one for amusement) finding the Brigid goddess is a sun goddess, referring to spring and referred to as “the exalted one”. So the Irish goddess is an Aries archetype, though, the goddess are trinities. It brings up a lot of questions, I also think it’s kind of beautiful in that it may be impossible to ever reconstruct any of it. She’s either depicted as an oak tree that is the tree of life, an acorn from that tree that birthed all life on the planet or the water that allowed the tree to live and grow; sometimes all of the above. The other goddess was the Morrigan which fits the archetype of an exalted Saturn in libra, she’s the contrary goddess to Brigid. Personally, lot of spirit in aries (which makes the synchronicity with a then unknown symbol interesting) and ruler of spirit is mars in libra (conjunct Venus and Pluto). This started with reading books by Vallee and being curious about how frequently lot and ruler of spirit plays a part, so it was funny to go full circle a little. Since Chris was on ancient aliens, I’ll throw in a quote from one of these books: “In other myths, the Gods came to Ireland through ships in the air, from four great otherworldly cities.” 😆 Where it gets interesting in a different way, they practiced ancestor worship where an “exalted person” could ascend to be what we today call fairies, others call elves, and similar to the daimon. Myths about the zodiac signs are similar in they became constellations either by an exalted life, task, or deed. I’m curious how some of these different myths align with these schemes. The Morrigan isn’t death itself, she’s the phantom queen of the underworld/otherworld who similarly has a historic cave that actually exists like the gate of hades. She warns of it, may even conspire. But they did an unnatural death either by murder or battle by another or others so that 7th or 8th is actual death, the 4th is the underworld. Their tree of life is an oak tree that rising high, reaching low, with roots pulling upward and branches pulling downward. Other symbolisms are in that exaltation scheme. “Brigid was hailed for teaching the children of Dana healing, craftsmanship, and poetry, but most of all, she showed her children that true wisdom was first garnered from the feet of Dana, the Mother Goddess, and only where the water meets the land.”, 1-7. Overall, unsolvable puzzle.
Thank you for this fascinating and very informative video! There is a lot to digest but I am hopeful that when I have assimilated it properly I may be able to shed some extra light on the subject of Exaltations. Explaining exaltations has been on my back burner for years, because I knew that I had to find the correlation between physics and planetary rulerships first. I cracked the correlation between physics and the zodiac back in 2013, and that leads naturally to the correlation between physics and planetary rulerships. However, I had a wrong preconception about Pluto which effectively acted as a block, and prevented me from recognising what is a very natural correlation until around this time last year. Last year something said about Pluto in one of your podcasts lead me to question the preconception about Pluto, and having discarded it everything fell into place and gave rise to my concept of Thrones. A planets throne is the point in the zodiac where its rulership is focused. The pattern totally validates the assignment of planetary rulerships to signs in the Thema Mundi, but not the placement of each at the 15 degree point of the sign. For an in depth discussion of the correlation see my video on Thrones. Essentially the correlation is this. If you take the orbital frequency of all the planets compared to the frequency of what I call the “Solar Great Year”, and map them logarithmically around the zodiac with the solar centre assigned to the cusp of Leo, what you end up with is a straight line graph which assigns the throne of every planet to the sign it traditionally rules, except for Pluto who's throne is at around 12 degrees of Pisces. In addition the graph identifies the throne of every asteroid and trans Neptunian object. For example Eris has a throne at around 1.5 degrees of Aries, which seems very reasonable to me. Also, because the correlation is related to a deeper understanding of the zodiac, the nature of every planets fundamental essence is also identified. In my Thrones video I left out a discussion of co-ruling planets for brevity. They fill in the missing slots in the Thema Mundi because they are simply the same assignments mapped retrograde around the zodiac. When I cracked the thrones correlation last year I briefly took the issue of exaltations off my back burner, but didn't see a consistent pattern at that time. I think it is easy to explain why Mars is exalted in Capricorn, and since Mars has a throne at around 15 degrees of Scorpio a simple translation of his resultant essential nature should put the point of his exaltation at 15 degrees of Capricorn. However your video makes it clear that such an assignment is probably too simplistic, and that there are other considerations to be accounted for. I don't have time to look into this now. I am currently working on the script of a new Power Ethic video for my Hiw Manatee's Soul Science channel, and when I have uploaded that video I plan to make one explaining the correlation between physics and the zodiac and its far reaching consequences. After that I may take a proper look at exaltations. I have an intuition that understanding them in relation to the information you have shared may shine light on some very deep stuff indeed. It is my opinion that the crumbs we have inherited from people like Hermes are fragments of a lost science which united Physics and Metaphysics into a consistent all embracing whole. I call that science Epiphysics and my work/research has been to use the correlation apparent between the Tropical Zodiac and Physics and the Thema Mundi and Physics to try to re-discover what was lost in a series of catastrophic events that began about 13,000 years ago. I have made significant progress.
Excellent research & insights. My own Saturn is exalted at 21 Libra conj Neptune in 10th which mitigates much of its negative nature in night chart~long career in chemistry & gardening!
Im going through this now for about five years its horrible im depressed & every single thing spoken in this podcast is straight facts! My god THANK YOU TEAL because especially the very end where that parent tells wrong times & hides information to make me look like an idiot & incapable parent. He has destroyed me & my heart through my precious daughter that ill never get that time back & this is this hardest time of my life not even being beat down physically can compare to living through each day without my daughter & not even knowing who she is anymore. I do not deserve this nobody does & wheres the justice in this world?
Very compelling, and thanks for the continued study. Quite a contribution! I would caution that finding an early rationale and naming it the original rationale are two different things. Finding the original anything in astrology might be out of reach. Yet, a wonderful 2.5 hours, thanks!
This was fun to revisit, this has been the topic of this retrograde period. I sort of use that jokingly, just bc when I explain what caught my attention, it’s extremely confusing due to still making up my mind (for one). 9th taurus profection year so Venus moving into Aquarius when I’m already in a moon transit with saturn (great sade Sati episode btw) is part of it. There’s a lot of transits going on. Initially, the thema mundi caught my attention due to it seeming to describe signs very simply, then seeing how significations appear to come from interaction. Being pulled back to review the rulership schemes is where I got excited. As of now, I view quadrants as sort of “spacial awareness”. I’m also leaning towards the popularity of quadrants most likely being related to rulership schemes already within whole sign houses. I’m just stuck on how to apply them properly as of now, but some of the mechanics “psychologically” are likely obvious where I plan to test a full rulership breakdown to further see if the patterning is accurate. Seems like some are easily tested in both natal and transit in terms of events. The sun being exalted in aries makes a lot of sense in that Leo isn’t exactly a sign that aspires to anything. In terms of natal, it may add an extra detail just in exaltation rulers and how well they work. It also helps (which is what caught my attention) that zodiac signs can’t generate planetary significations independently. Cancer is interesting, moon and Jupiter in opposition to Saturn and Mars where Capricorn is very known to be very methodical and ambitious. Throw in other significations like m/f and element; it gets really interesting. An argument for quadrants that cause curiosity is how others notice libra traits in myself, I notice them, yet, libra is succedent. If rulerships are taken in, there’s a LOT of libra going on (angular) but actually mars, but Venus is conjunct. Virgo Ascendant, it’s even easy to notice some small sign blending by rulership. If I pull a hard Saturn 1st, it’ll have “libra” tones. Chris had a post about quincunx and a person brought up their yods; I was annoyed by said person because I view that person as someone who selfishly sets back astrology where I, myself, don’t want to actually practice it bc I view association as embarrassing. I feel bad for legitimate astrologers who have to suffer occupational embarrassment. So mars can be noticed beyond the 2nd house where it mixed that virgo criticism in a more libra social way. “You’re representing astrologers and making it look like a joke as selfishly as possible..” the 12th house Leo is obvious, that’s mixed in with Saturn. Libra (Venus and mars) are in Mercury bounds, Leo sun and Mercury are in mars bounds. So there’s an interesting exchange, but when virgo and libra may be mixing, it’s definitely a hard shift. A lot makes sense, pisces being a mixture of Jupiter and Venus seems to describe the sign better than Neptune. Only Saturn ruling Aquarius makes sense (just referencing ex and dom) since Aquarius is known for that cold mechanical attitude. As of now, I think you’d use all 3 triplicity rulers more focused on the 2; from my personal experience it’s been day/night where the vibe suddenly changed. Bounds seem accurate, I’m not sure on decans. It would make sense with 3 phases of seasons though. It may be a good time to say I actually like using both detriment and antithesis with “exiled” planets. Just because they can be both; ideally antithetical is positive where, if used wrong, it can be at your detriment. A good point would be saying there’s this one astrologer I view as an archetype on what is specifically wrong with astrology. I’m sure clients would love to hear there’s a pattern that says they’re a vessel of god, itself. I’m sure that’ll make a person a lot of money in certain regions, but it’s also an example of why I wouldn’t care about WW3 bc we have a culture that created that type of narcissism. There’s a lot of mars where it can either be an antithesis or a detriment depending on how it’s approached. I like that the tradition is being discovered; it shows how brilliant early astrologers really were. I’d think an astrologer would say an example like “I’ve seen quincunx work out amazing for clients”, not “I’m awesome..” Leo, no exaltation bc they lack drive for that specific reason I’d assume. Aries wants to achieve, so it makes sense the sun is actually exalted there. My deepest sympathies, keep up the good work.
This is really great work - so great, in fact, if it were to become the primary focus of one's energies it may build into an enduring and lasting gold-star legacy. The historical tradition of astrology desperately needs focus, attention & scholarship e.g. Arabic-speaking astrology suffered from the tendencies toward legalism & positivism ascendant in some medieval Islamic traditions - but it is insightful, solid work like this that breaks it all down, wades through the BS in a scholarly way, & transmits the best for both modern consumption, and for posterity. 👏
1)I really like the idea of a decline instead of a weakness as a connotation when talking about planets in their fall and vice versa - approaching fullness of light in exaltation vs strength - because in the end - we do personal astrology in the modern world, and there is the layer of the psychological to attend to, and the idea that we hold space for others and offer guidance - it is not just about math and favorable/unfavorable. The language used becomes critical. What is the consequence of being in detriment (fall)? in real life? Many successful people have planets in fall. Is there no value in the darkness? Some of the best art comes from those depths. It is part of the human condition, of life - as noted by the ancients, darkness, decay and the cycle begins again. 2) The whole concept of signs with no Ptolemic aspect to ASC aka "in aversion" (e.g. Virgo to Aries) becomes less harmful in some combinations because there is equal light (antiscia) relative to equinoxes and solstices.Virgo and Aries are sympathetic to each other because of equal hours of light in a day. Light here too is a key factor in interpretation of being favorable or not. 3) Please someone summarize all of this - make it easy to grasp so we can all come to conclusions about how to work with this. There needs to be more critical review - can't wait to see it. There has to be more than math to support the interpretation? There would have to be observation of practical application. Where is this? Where are the example of chart interpretation based on these different systems? And why is the night chart showing a weaker aspect (sextile) that the day planets? (trine). Again, is this a concept of light = good or easier, darkness=bad or more challenging? CONGRATS ON ALL YOUR HARD WORK ON THIS LATEST DISCOVERY.
I find very interesting that Jupiter is on the ASC encarnating the Exaltation Chart & the manner the lights do change come from the heavens to the ground in a pattern of light, being Jupiter the star of Zeus, King of the Gods, which rules the Cosmos from the heavens to the ground with his light rays ⚡
Mars in Capricorn. Jupiter in Cancer. Think of survival. In the Cancer part of the year, could you survive easily? Find food? Avoid death? In the Capricorn season, can you sustain? There's a difference in ease &effort to survive. I know Ben said "scatter" to Mars, but I feel the opposite. Like Mars is willing to make hard choices, life & decisions to survive... life blood depends on it. I even think of ppl surviving after falling through the ice for long periods- the blood slows, heartbeat undetected. In cancer season, things flourish, you can find food more readily. The necessity of killing to stay alive, less likely.
Thank you for this excellent episode. I have one question. Why he uses first visibility degree for Moon in equator instead of his general 15 degrees principal? If Moon is placed to 15 degrees of Taurus, it will be also visible. Is there any other comment on this?
What are your thoughts on the potential exaltations of the outer planets? Specifically... What if Uranus was exalted in Scorpio, Neptune in Aquarius, and Pluto in Leo... This would put one planet exalted in each of the 12 signs (including the nodes in Gemini and Sagittarius) although I don't know if it stays true to these multiple other patterns involving the exaltations.....
For how wildly geeky this was, it was incredibly interesting. (The geeky thing is just humor). I think it came up in another episode somewhere and this actually made much more sense. I think I found somewhere in a ridiculous History Channel thing that the whole Jesus thing revolved around a complete domicile chart, but I find more often that when I fact check history it’s not true. Attached: prior to this I listened to an old episode where listeners had questions about their chart answered which had possibly the most impressive ending where it was almost scripted even though it wasn’t. That was really impressive to find. My predictive skepticism was knocked down a few notches. Related more, I never cared for “dominant planet” calculations and figured I’d actually look, I was actually surprised Venus is my dominant while (in modern planets) it’s a moon Venus tie with oddly Neptune as 3rd. I’m actually likely to put cosmos and psyche on the back burner to read more on the Lots, I plan to finish the picatrix episode tomorrow because there should be something in that episode related to them. Fingers are pointing to something weird with that libra Venus, mars, and Pluto conjunction. Getting into the actual myths, the nemesis lot caught my attention because what would be related to spirit has a very odd quality that has a very Greek nemesis vibe and I’m whole sighs nemesis and spirit are in conjunction in the 8th aries. Weird? Synchronicities happened where instead of moving to Washington state years ago I stayed instead where both grandparents ended up with Alzheimer’s where I was the only person in the family who was willing to help which was awful working 60-70 hours a week. They both passed away within 3 weeks of each other and I opted to get no inheritance because I thought it was morally wrong where others actually broke will either by theft or just taking as gifts despite them being specific about wishes. Part of spirit path related to that and when I was the only morally decent person I was obviously mad; I did nothing but horrific things happened to everyone else involved. Step dad had a major stroke, paralyzed for life. My cousin stole from the estate to move to North Carolina with her husband where they’re now divorced and her youngest son attempted suicide recently and aunt was diagnosed with cancer. There’s about 8 more stories like that plus others more personal where it was like screwing me over cursed them where part of what I’ve been curious with astrology relates to that. That might be nemesis… lol. Neptune is my 3rd strongest planet, just saying. Figured I’d throw that story in because I keep reading only Lot of Spirit and Fortune matter and there may be more to it than that. I literally ran into the nemesis myth yesterday, went “oh s+*^” then got bored looking at the nemesis placement listening to this cast. Have fun with that astrology story. I’m trying to decide if I like the planetary dominant system while the Venus placement is what others point out as most obvious. Congratulations on the subscriber award.
At 26:35 Chris read out the degrees written in his book, but in my copy it says Mars exalts at 27 degrees. Can anyone confirm if this is correct? Thank you!
Awesome guys thank you 👏🏽👏🏽 Certainly insightful and NOT the bunch of made up woo woo crap I was expecting after seeing Alan White’s take on it 😆 RIP Allen 🙏
I have read in some text that the exalted Mars is at 28 degrees Capricorn. Since you mentioned it's 27 degrees Capricorn, which one is the correct one?
Loved this discussion. I learned a lot! As an aside, it was painful how Chris brushed over Benjamin's invention so swiftly. Ben was excited to share his zigzag brightness mnemonic and to be celebrated for his cleverness. Yet Chris, in his excitement to continue to explore, said "Alight, next we have....." I am half joking here as Chris was obviously excited but I did feel Benjamin's excitement and then deflation. Anyone else?
Awesome job on all of this. I agree that it sounds really plausible as an explanation. I do have a question though. Why are there Universal exaltation degrees? If it's tied to darkness & lightness, then why not calculate the MC for 15 degrees Cancer for any point on the planet, and try to work out the exaltation points for your location? Rather than a MC of 17 Aries at with a rising of 15 Cancer, then it's 26 Aries here in Portland. The MC would move into Pisces when you go higher north. So how does the relative strength of these planets at the equator for an imaginal thema mundi natal chart, then translate into exaltation degrees for anywhere in the world? This is an excellent explanation for why these degrees are what they are, but why do they work everywhere? The origin of these degrees seem to be tied to visual astronomy and right ascension at the equator, and so why should they have any additional power when it may not match up with the dynamics of ascensional times of your location?
Good question! I haven't used the exaltation degrees much in my work, because I was always uncomfortable with not knowing the rationale origins, so now that we do it is sort of an open question whether the rationale is sufficient to incorporate them today. Honestly though tons certain extent isn't there a similar question about the Thema Mundi and the domicile scheme? Or what would make that one universal, and the exaltation degrees not, I guess is one of the questions that would be good to ask and for astrologers to attempt to explain.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast Yeah, I suppose this gets down to some pretty fundamental philosophical foundations for how these axiomatic assumptions get tested and transmitted. There are lots of rules like this that sometimes either get mysteriously or arbitrarily generated, and then they're passed along through the embodied experiences of each generation of astrologers. Sometimes they're rigorously empirically tested, and other times it's received wisdom that isn't necessarily put to deeper social epistemological process for separating the wheat from chaff. There are ways in which individuals have cultivated platforms for teaching, published in magazines, journals, books, embed algorithms within computer software, as well as the oral transmissions that happen at conferences. But all of these methods are subjected to market dynamics, which is sometimes a good enough proxy for what's working and many times what's popular at a massive scale has no connection to any deeper embodied experiences. I've never really used these degrees for anything myself, but now that there's a philosophical reasoning, then it is actually a lot more compelling to consider. I see this explanation as being coherent within the larger Hellenistic astrology framework, which also has a series of other doctrines and ways of evaluating the condition, quality, context, and relative strength of each planet. And this is actually pretty revealing to some possibilities of some deeper philosophical principles. I suppose I'm really interested in what those principles are, which would allow for the further development of the techniques. Neoplatonism seems to have a pretty heavy influence in seeing the movement of the heavens as potentially being correlated to some sort of Platonic realm of ideal forms. If the movement of the heavens is connected to dynamic flux of human experience on earth, then there's this dialectic between Heaven and Earth. Seeing this connection between the earth and these deeper Platonic principles raises a lot of questions for how to extrapolate these concepts. Especially as we have software that could dynamically calculate things that the ancients could not. So calculating the visual astronomy on the equator is a fascinating way to see how the balance of lightness and darkness of these planets at these points is connected to the process of building and releasing of metaphoric strength. Overall, I really love the elegance of the symmetry of this explanation, but it also brings up some deeper questions for me around some of these foundational questions that I've explored in the second issue of The Ascendant magazine.
@@kentbye1830 Oh thank you for being so articulate about this. What you are saying really resonates. I especially love "the dialectic between Heaven and Earth" - the concepts must be observable.
I would like to know your thoughts about how to work with tropical zodiac (and specially with exaltations and depressions/falls) in the southern hemisphere. For us who live in the south it seems problematic. Because if the exaltation scheme is derived from a seasonal aspect, then It would make sense to invert the exaltations and falls down here, but I don't see much people doing that actually. Actually the same problem happens with domiciles and detriments since if they are derived from the 15° Leo the moment of the most heat and when the Sun is "king" in the nothern latitudes, well, down here it's more or less exactly the opposite situation. So I supposedly have the Sun in detriment yet if I follow the seasonal guidelines my Sun would be actually literally in the middle of its domicile since It's at the 15th degree of Aqua in the southern hemisphere. Not even talking about the validity of not starting the zodiac in the southern hemisphere vernal point which would be zero Libra in the north, that would actually put me as a Leo instead of as an Aquarius. But I guess that's another discussion. Still I would really like to see an episode talking a bit about this stuff of how to approach the hemisphere problem within the tropical framework. Even for the northern astrologers I think is a concerning issue since for mundane you are going to use it here and there charts of the southern hemisphere not to talk about consulting clients from this latitudes. Other than that, I find interesting that the degree of exaltation of South Node is almost at the same point (not sure if exactly the same degree though) of the sidereal ecliptic longitude of the Galactic Center.-
I jumped around revisiting some other episodes, but I figured I’d comment about how much an exalted Jupiter in the 11th sucks and I think it’s all wrong. I’m just kidding, I actually think exaltations are (or can be) much more difficult than domiciles. Not my point, I actually stopped by because I’m about to dive more into degrees and that’s my glaring hole in understanding. Even though I prefer the method used/described here and absolutely despise degree theory.. a horary chart I randomly cast for some reason with a vague answer… Part is I am skeptical of horary and was dropped by how wildly accurate just the description of the person asking was. Scary accurate. The problem is the degrees of the ascendant and ruler are in different degrees with the same meaning in degree theory as the question. That was a small issue I had with horary in that the question doesn’t exactly show up. In that case, if degree theory is credible (looks like classic confirmation bias to me), the exact question with fast moving indicators where it had to be asked then.. the tragedy is I now have to research said degree theory due to that being too bizarre of a coincidence to just be one. Why does it always have to be the thing I don’t like that I have to research? 😆 Just thought I’d share that.
I wonder how astrology can work so well worldwide, whule it's while system is based in northern hemisphere. Any author who touches on this subject please?
If the exaltations have an objective truth to them, we can't with certainty, deduce that later astrologers must have copied previous texts. Just like with astronomical discoveries, such as numbering the days of the year, we wouldn't be correct in automatically assuming that two civilisations separated by space or time coming up with the same number must be the result of one copying the other. Could it not just be objective data that different astrologers perceived independently from one another.
If the text we found is correct and this does represent the original rationale for the exaltation degrees, then the 10 degrees in the Indian tradition may represent an error in the transmission when the technique was transmitted to the Indian tradition. David Pingree speculated that this could have happened if one numeral fell out of the text or became illegible, so that 19 became 10 for the exaltation of the Sun, and 15 for Jupiter became 5 in the Indian tradition.
First let me say I've not had a chance to listen to the entirety, so I may not have had a chance to hear if this was covered... The length of days and growing light only applies to Northern Hemisphere. Is that reconciled in this discussion and I haven't gotten there yet?
No we didn't get into that. While on the one hand it is interesting and important to have the tropical basis of the system finally confirmed, on the other hand the tropical zodiac also has its own unique drawbacks that haven't been fully addressed in modern times, as you know. Or focus here was just establishing the rationale outlined by the text though.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast thanks. If you consider the Tropical Vedic Perspective of how the chakras/signs align to the movement of the Sun "northward", and the north part of the planet is related to higher chakras, this may be reconciled, rather than considering lengthening or decreasing of days...this also takes care of the generalized seasonal ideas related to the signs and puts the in the perspective of the Earth's energetic system relating to human chakras...since are made of earth, how the Earth's "chakras" are affected influences human experience too.
@@KriyaYogaOnline - I'm open to the idea of north and south movement being a key figure, but I'm hesitant to have to resort to importing other esoteric formulas into the system I'm working with, and would prefer sticking with something strictly astronomical. One of the things I'm not sure about for example is what makes north "north" universally, so that the head should be there in your chakra system? In a relativistic cosmos, what is the anchor point for the north? Maybe Polaris? But then that changes eventually with precession as well. Maybe due to most of the land mass being there? This is an issue I've been asking astrologers to come up with a solution to for years, as I would really like to find one.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast Yes, determining why North is North, could be a difficult consideration. As for esoteric... The higher chakras are related to clearer more "benefic" states of consciousness. Astrology is associated with understanding states of consciousness related to the human experience isn't it? (I specify human, because I've never had a plant, rock or other creature then a human ask me for a session.) When an astrologer uses the terms benefic or malefic isn't that moving away from a purely "astronomical" viewpoint to a more esoteric one? I completely understand the drive to have sanitized rational for astrology, but I'm not sure that's possible, is it? Or maybe I misunderstood...as text messages via internet are not always easy to get a point across clearly.
Question, can astrology be secular? Disconnceted with myths and religions? I always feel a disconnect whenever the myths are mentjoned i like listening to them but they seem like ways that people decided on understanding the planets and their connections to each other. I don't know if this makes sense to ask but it's a point of discomfort I want to solve for myself. Like must we believe the myths to believe in the truth of astrology.
You talked about the 7 traditional planets and their Exaltation but never mentioned anything about the dignities of the new planets (Ceres, Vesta, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) which are the modern rulers of Taurus, Virgo, Aquarius, Pisces, Scorpio. When accounting and considering these Planets one will have to change the Exaltation sign of some planets. Saturn in particular rules Capricorn and the 10th house, this sign is directly situated opposite of Cancer. In traditional astrology Saturn is Exalted in Libra which is the sign of the fall of the Sun being Exalted in Aries. However, Saturn is not Opposite of Leo and the 5th house. The Moon is the opposite and enemy planet. Since the Moon is Exalted in Taurus then by following that logic the same is going to apply to Saturn being Exalted in Scorpio which is the sign of the fall of the Moon. I have also done some research and found the most powerful and wealthy celebrities were also born with Saturn in Scorpio. Uranus is Exalted in Libra not Saturn.
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Let us know if you have any comments or questions about the discovery below!
Congratulations for your discovery Chris! And all those who made it possible/ collaborated. I'm celebrating with you. Thank you for sharing with us right away!
Thank you both for the detailed review. This discussion is one of the most important in astrology, and it is a good thing, that somebody initiates it. It puzzles me, why is the Equator latitude chosen for the positions of the planets in combination with the rational behind seasons and increasing/decreasing of light/heat? After all, on the Equator the duration of the day is constant through the entire year.
Chris, surely the Dendera sculpture cant be a real chart, because venus and mercury are too far from the sun, right?
When you guys discussed how no one else has translated... Have you heard of Dr Rumen Kolev? He says that he has an algorithm to explain exaltations, as well as heliacal phases in Babylonian astrology. Apparently he has translated hermetic texts from Arabic too.
@@krisdavies5308 Yes, he spoke about that on the Second European Conference on Astrology. Here's a link to his lecture. facebook.com/watch/live/?v=813702855882671&ref=watch_permalink
You're leaving a mark in the history of astrology... thank you.
I swear, this is astrological archeology. So fascinating!
@J Freeman more and more contemporary astrologers are using ancient texts rather than recent fluff
19:44 - mini-intro: 'Theoretical Construct'
21:13 - ! - Signs of Exaltation Chart
21:58 - ! - The Thema Mundi : Cancer Rising
17:47 "Exactly 8 years ago" Interesting, sounds like it may have thematically lined up with the last creative Venus shadow/retrograde cycle in Gemini. Thanks a ton for all you two are doing to further astrology and the Hermetic tradition!
Yeah, that Venus retrograde cycle connection was something I was very cognizant of as we were putting this together. Coincidentally, I also started this podcast 8 years ago under the same Venus retrograde in Gemini.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast just reviewing old notes myself and see where this year and 8 years ago there was a Mars retrograde going on as well.
This is very timely because I’m in a third house profection year and I seem to be getting SO many “messages” from Hermès themed sources (Aries rising, Mercury rules my 3rd house). Also, I have an exalted moon in Taurus, so I’m excited to listen. I just received the Hermetic tarot as a gift. Keep up the good work Chris!💫
Loved the discussion here and decided to purchase this translation by Keiji Yamamoto and Charles Burnet. Spend about 2 weeks living and sleeping with this book, and very much worth it. It is now an important link in my library and I owe it to this episode. Great discussion. Thanks.
Thank you both 🙏🏽🙏🏽 and thanks for shedding some light on Rahu and Ketu exaltation points
Just an idea for why Jupiter would be on the ascendant for the exaltation rulership chart but you’re talking about the kingly(or queenly) form of each of the planets. The planet sitting on its throne. So why wouldn’t the greater benefic be the first idea conceived in the chart? The planet of kings. Using the planet on the ascendant as the form being sought after. The body of what’s in question. The Thema mundi is speaking about the great birth of the cosmos which requires the moon as the signifier for birth among other things. The planetary joys being headed by mercury because like Ben said mercury can distinguish between light and dark, masculine and feminine. The planet of analysis but also they’re the fastest (nonluminary) planet which would have to be in charge of something that changes so quickly and is such a precise specific thing. Not to mention it brings to my mind the idea of the messenger needing to know Where a planet is located (house) vs what the planet is acting like (sign). Just a few ideas I had while listening. This talk was extraordinary can’t wait to see what it develops into. Huge fan of both of your work thank you both for sharing it with the world.
Good observation!
Mind=blown! Wow, so much illumination on theses exaltations! Thank you for this wonderful discussion!
You and Ben make a very good team. Love your stuff, both individually and together. Stay well & best wishes to you both.
Groundbreaking! Can't wait for Ben's traditional astrology class!
x HC
Hi Chris! My point of view is the origin of exaltation follows the right direction from ASC to MIdheaven of daily moves of the Sun. The planets follows chaldean order and take their postion moving from cardinal sign. For example: Saturn rules in Capricorn and he moves right to Libra, Jupiter rules in Saggitarius moves right to Cancer, Mars rules in Aries and he moves to Capricorn, Sun rules in Leo and he goes to Aries. Important: Cardinal signs posititons take first, and it follows the rest. Direction turns left if we define the planets in fall, but chaldean order and priviledges of cardinal signs remain the same! :) Check on this, it works! ;)
So exciting, thank you both, such a delight🙏
The thing that makes me a bit cautious is the timing of the release of this new material: especially the Neptune square Mercury in Gemini and the nodes of the moon starting their journey towards their exaltation degrees...
Might the polarities mentioned by Rhetorius of Egypt regarding the role of the moon be another piece of the puzzle in regards to the signs where there are no planets exalted? Schmidt had some wild theories, and there is an unfortunate lack of historical evidence to fine tune this...
Anyways! May more information come to light 🌈✨ thank you both for shining your brightness onto this☀️🌛🌜
Yes, I do think that the polarities mentioned by Rhetorius did play a role, and this is actually mentioned at one point later in the chapter by Abu Ma'shar/Hermes briefly. It also came up explicitly when Hermes was contrasting the dry nature of Mercury with the wet nature of Venus, so part of the focus in the original text may have been partially predicated on elementally-based oppositions.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast love this, thank you 🙏can wait for more to be revealed
I skimmed this again, I’ll go fuller into it when I do a patreon deep dive. My detour from astrology went back to astrology in that I detoured to look at a repeated symbol synchronicity (plus one for amusement) finding the Brigid goddess is a sun goddess, referring to spring and referred to as “the exalted one”. So the Irish goddess is an Aries archetype, though, the goddess are trinities. It brings up a lot of questions, I also think it’s kind of beautiful in that it may be impossible to ever reconstruct any of it. She’s either depicted as an oak tree that is the tree of life, an acorn from that tree that birthed all life on the planet or the water that allowed the tree to live and grow; sometimes all of the above. The other goddess was the Morrigan which fits the archetype of an exalted Saturn in libra, she’s the contrary goddess to Brigid. Personally, lot of spirit in aries (which makes the synchronicity with a then unknown symbol interesting) and ruler of spirit is mars in libra (conjunct Venus and Pluto). This started with reading books by Vallee and being curious about how frequently lot and ruler of spirit plays a part, so it was funny to go full circle a little.
Since Chris was on ancient aliens, I’ll throw in a quote from one of these books: “In other myths, the Gods came to Ireland through ships in the air, from four great otherworldly cities.” 😆
Where it gets interesting in a different way, they practiced ancestor worship where an “exalted person” could ascend to be what we today call fairies, others call elves, and similar to the daimon. Myths about the zodiac signs are similar in they became constellations either by an exalted life, task, or deed.
I’m curious how some of these different myths align with these schemes. The Morrigan isn’t death itself, she’s the phantom queen of the underworld/otherworld who similarly has a historic cave that actually exists like the gate of hades. She warns of it, may even conspire. But they did an unnatural death either by murder or battle by another or others so that 7th or 8th is actual death, the 4th is the underworld. Their tree of life is an oak tree that rising high, reaching low, with roots pulling upward and branches pulling downward. Other symbolisms are in that exaltation scheme.
“Brigid was hailed for teaching the children of Dana healing, craftsmanship, and poetry, but most of all, she showed her children that true wisdom was first garnered from the feet of Dana, the Mother Goddess, and only where the water meets the land.”, 1-7.
Overall, unsolvable puzzle.
Thank you for this fascinating and very informative video! There is a lot to digest but I am hopeful that when I have assimilated it properly I may be able to shed some extra light on the subject of Exaltations. Explaining exaltations has been on my back burner for years, because I knew that I had to find the correlation between physics and planetary rulerships first. I cracked the correlation between physics and the zodiac back in 2013, and that leads naturally to the correlation between physics and planetary rulerships. However, I had a wrong preconception about Pluto which effectively acted as a block, and prevented me from recognising what is a very natural correlation until around this time last year. Last year something said about Pluto in one of your podcasts lead me to question the preconception about Pluto, and having discarded it everything fell into place and gave rise to my concept of Thrones. A planets throne is the point in the zodiac where its rulership is focused. The pattern totally validates the assignment of planetary rulerships to signs in the Thema Mundi, but not the placement of each at the 15 degree point of the sign. For an in depth discussion of the correlation see my video on Thrones. Essentially the correlation is this. If you take the orbital frequency of all the planets compared to the frequency of what I call the “Solar Great Year”, and map them logarithmically around the zodiac with the solar centre assigned to the cusp of Leo, what you end up with is a straight line graph which assigns the throne of every planet to the sign it traditionally rules, except for Pluto who's throne is at around 12 degrees of Pisces. In addition the graph identifies the throne of every asteroid and trans Neptunian object. For example Eris has a throne at around 1.5 degrees of Aries, which seems very reasonable to me. Also, because the correlation is related to a deeper understanding of the zodiac, the nature of every planets fundamental essence is also identified. In my Thrones video I left out a discussion of co-ruling planets for brevity. They fill in the missing slots in the Thema Mundi because they are simply the same assignments mapped retrograde around the zodiac. When I cracked the thrones correlation last year I briefly took the issue of exaltations off my back burner, but didn't see a consistent pattern at that time. I think it is easy to explain why Mars is exalted in Capricorn, and since Mars has a throne at around 15 degrees of Scorpio a simple translation of his resultant essential nature should put the point of his exaltation at 15 degrees of Capricorn. However your video makes it clear that such an assignment is probably too simplistic, and that there are other considerations to be accounted for. I don't have time to look into this now. I am currently working on the script of a new Power Ethic video for my Hiw Manatee's Soul Science channel, and when I have uploaded that video I plan to make one explaining the correlation between physics and the zodiac and its far reaching consequences. After that I may take a proper look at exaltations. I have an intuition that understanding them in relation to the information you have shared may shine light on some very deep stuff indeed. It is my opinion that the crumbs we have inherited from people like Hermes are fragments of a lost science which united Physics and Metaphysics into a consistent all embracing whole. I call that science Epiphysics and my work/research has been to use the correlation apparent between the Tropical Zodiac and Physics and the Thema Mundi and Physics to try to re-discover what was lost in a series of catastrophic events that began about 13,000 years ago. I have made significant progress.
Thank you for access to this discussion 💜
I look forward to the next. Thanks
At 10 minutes its all suddenly as interesting as I wish everything in life was.
Thank you gentlemen.
Great episode, I really enjoyed watching. Thank you both!!
Great session 🙏🎉 thank you Benjamin and Chris....loved your observations and rationale 🎉🙏 superb👍
Thank you for this!! This was extremely interesting
Oh heck yeah, thank you!
Excellent research & insights. My own Saturn is exalted at 21 Libra conj Neptune in 10th which mitigates much of its negative nature in night chart~long career in chemistry & gardening!
Im going through this now for about five years its horrible im depressed & every single thing spoken in this podcast is straight facts! My god THANK YOU TEAL because especially the very end where that parent tells wrong times & hides information to make me look like an idiot & incapable parent. He has destroyed me & my heart through my precious daughter that ill never get that time back & this is this hardest time of my life not even being beat down physically can compare to living through each day without my daughter & not even knowing who she is anymore. I do not deserve this nobody does & wheres the justice in this world?
Very compelling, and thanks for the continued study. Quite a contribution! I would caution that finding an early rationale and naming it the original rationale are two different things. Finding the original anything in astrology might be out of reach. Yet, a wonderful 2.5 hours, thanks!
This was fun to revisit, this has been the topic of this retrograde period. I sort of use that jokingly, just bc when I explain what caught my attention, it’s extremely confusing due to still making up my mind (for one). 9th taurus profection year so Venus moving into Aquarius when I’m already in a moon transit with saturn (great sade Sati episode btw) is part of it. There’s a lot of transits going on.
Initially, the thema mundi caught my attention due to it seeming to describe signs very simply, then seeing how significations appear to come from interaction. Being pulled back to review the rulership schemes is where I got excited.
As of now, I view quadrants as sort of “spacial awareness”. I’m also leaning towards the popularity of quadrants most likely being related to rulership schemes already within whole sign houses. I’m just stuck on how to apply them properly as of now, but some of the mechanics “psychologically” are likely obvious where I plan to test a full rulership breakdown to further see if the patterning is accurate.
Seems like some are easily tested in both natal and transit in terms of events.
The sun being exalted in aries makes a lot of sense in that Leo isn’t exactly a sign that aspires to anything. In terms of natal, it may add an extra detail just in exaltation rulers and how well they work. It also helps (which is what caught my attention) that zodiac signs can’t generate planetary significations independently. Cancer is interesting, moon and Jupiter in opposition to Saturn and Mars where Capricorn is very known to be very methodical and ambitious. Throw in other significations like m/f and element; it gets really interesting.
An argument for quadrants that cause curiosity is how others notice libra traits in myself, I notice them, yet, libra is succedent. If rulerships are taken in, there’s a LOT of libra going on (angular) but actually mars, but Venus is conjunct. Virgo Ascendant, it’s even easy to notice some small sign blending by rulership. If I pull a hard Saturn 1st, it’ll have “libra” tones. Chris had a post about quincunx and a person brought up their yods; I was annoyed by said person because I view that person as someone who selfishly sets back astrology where I, myself, don’t want to actually practice it bc I view association as embarrassing. I feel bad for legitimate astrologers who have to suffer occupational embarrassment. So mars can be noticed beyond the 2nd house where it mixed that virgo criticism in a more libra social way. “You’re representing astrologers and making it look like a joke as selfishly as possible..” the 12th house Leo is obvious, that’s mixed in with Saturn. Libra (Venus and mars) are in Mercury bounds, Leo sun and Mercury are in mars bounds. So there’s an interesting exchange, but when virgo and libra may be mixing, it’s definitely a hard shift.
A lot makes sense, pisces being a mixture of Jupiter and Venus seems to describe the sign better than Neptune. Only Saturn ruling Aquarius makes sense (just referencing ex and dom) since Aquarius is known for that cold mechanical attitude.
As of now, I think you’d use all 3 triplicity rulers more focused on the 2; from my personal experience it’s been day/night where the vibe suddenly changed. Bounds seem accurate, I’m not sure on decans. It would make sense with 3 phases of seasons though.
It may be a good time to say I actually like using both detriment and antithesis with “exiled” planets. Just because they can be both; ideally antithetical is positive where, if used wrong, it can be at your detriment. A good point would be saying there’s this one astrologer I view as an archetype on what is specifically wrong with astrology. I’m sure clients would love to hear there’s a pattern that says they’re a vessel of god, itself. I’m sure that’ll make a person a lot of money in certain regions, but it’s also an example of why I wouldn’t care about WW3 bc we have a culture that created that type of narcissism. There’s a lot of mars where it can either be an antithesis or a detriment depending on how it’s approached. I like that the tradition is being discovered; it shows how brilliant early astrologers really were.
I’d think an astrologer would say an example like “I’ve seen quincunx work out amazing for clients”, not “I’m awesome..” Leo, no exaltation bc they lack drive for that specific reason I’d assume. Aries wants to achieve, so it makes sense the sun is actually exalted there.
My deepest sympathies, keep up the good work.
Thank you both! This is fascinating.
This is really great work - so great, in fact, if it were to become the primary focus of one's energies it may build into an enduring and lasting gold-star legacy. The historical tradition of astrology desperately needs focus, attention & scholarship e.g. Arabic-speaking astrology suffered from the tendencies toward legalism & positivism ascendant in some medieval Islamic traditions - but it is insightful, solid work like this that breaks it all down, wades through the BS in a scholarly way, & transmits the best for both modern consumption, and for posterity. 👏
1)I really like the idea of a decline instead of a weakness as a connotation when talking about planets in their fall and vice versa - approaching fullness of light in exaltation vs strength - because in the end - we do personal astrology in the modern world, and there is the layer of the psychological to attend to, and the idea that we hold space for others and offer guidance - it is not just about math and favorable/unfavorable. The language used becomes critical. What is the consequence of being in detriment (fall)? in real life? Many successful people have planets in fall. Is there no value in the darkness? Some of the best art comes from those depths. It is part of the human condition, of life - as noted by the ancients, darkness, decay and the cycle begins again.
2) The whole concept of signs with no Ptolemic aspect to ASC aka "in aversion" (e.g. Virgo to Aries) becomes less harmful in some combinations because there is equal light (antiscia) relative to equinoxes and solstices.Virgo and Aries are sympathetic to each other because of equal hours of light in a day. Light here too is a key factor in interpretation of being favorable or not.
3) Please someone summarize all of this - make it easy to grasp so we can all come to conclusions about how to work with this. There needs to be more critical review - can't wait to see it. There has to be more than math to support the interpretation? There would have to be observation of practical application. Where is this? Where are the example of chart interpretation based on these different systems? And why is the night chart showing a weaker aspect (sextile) that the day planets? (trine). Again, is this a concept of light = good or easier, darkness=bad or more challenging? CONGRATS ON ALL YOUR HARD WORK ON THIS LATEST DISCOVERY.
wonderful talk
Congratulations! What a find! You'll have to do a second addition now won't you...
Mars exalted in the house of open enemies. Sounds about right. Thank you, Thema Mundi!
I find very interesting that Jupiter is on the ASC encarnating the Exaltation Chart & the manner the lights do change come from the heavens to the ground in a pattern of light, being Jupiter the star of Zeus, King of the Gods, which rules the Cosmos from the heavens to the ground with his light rays ⚡
Mars in Capricorn. Jupiter in Cancer. Think of survival. In the Cancer part of the year, could you survive easily? Find food? Avoid death? In the Capricorn season, can you sustain? There's a difference in ease &effort to survive. I know Ben said "scatter" to Mars, but I feel the opposite. Like Mars is willing to make hard choices, life & decisions to survive... life blood depends on it. I even think of ppl surviving after falling through the ice for long periods- the blood slows, heartbeat undetected. In cancer season, things flourish, you can find food more readily. The necessity of killing to stay alive, less likely.
Mandala is a geometric pattern of energy flow .... planets have their mandala...like Venus star pattern
This..
Is 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
So muuuch knowledge
Thank you
Thank you for this excellent episode. I have one question.
Why he uses first visibility degree for Moon in equator instead of his general 15 degrees principal? If Moon is placed to 15 degrees of Taurus, it will be also visible. Is there any other comment on this?
What are your thoughts on the potential exaltations of the outer planets? Specifically... What if Uranus was exalted in Scorpio, Neptune in Aquarius, and Pluto in Leo... This would put one planet exalted in each of the 12 signs (including the nodes in Gemini and Sagittarius) although I don't know if it stays true to these multiple other patterns involving the exaltations.....
I have part of the puzzle for you guys. Somehow I need to discuss with you.
Thank 🙇
Amazing.
For how wildly geeky this was, it was incredibly interesting. (The geeky thing is just humor).
I think it came up in another episode somewhere and this actually made much more sense. I think I found somewhere in a ridiculous History Channel thing that the whole Jesus thing revolved around a complete domicile chart, but I find more often that when I fact check history it’s not true.
Attached: prior to this I listened to an old episode where listeners had questions about their chart answered which had possibly the most impressive ending where it was almost scripted even though it wasn’t. That was really impressive to find. My predictive skepticism was knocked down a few notches. Related more, I never cared for “dominant planet” calculations and figured I’d actually look, I was actually surprised Venus is my dominant while (in modern planets) it’s a moon Venus tie with oddly Neptune as 3rd.
I’m actually likely to put cosmos and psyche on the back burner to read more on the Lots, I plan to finish the picatrix episode tomorrow because there should be something in that episode related to them. Fingers are pointing to something weird with that libra Venus, mars, and Pluto conjunction. Getting into the actual myths, the nemesis lot caught my attention because what would be related to spirit has a very odd quality that has a very Greek nemesis vibe and I’m whole sighs nemesis and spirit are in conjunction in the 8th aries. Weird? Synchronicities happened where instead of moving to Washington state years ago I stayed instead where both grandparents ended up with Alzheimer’s where I was the only person in the family who was willing to help which was awful working 60-70 hours a week. They both passed away within 3 weeks of each other and I opted to get no inheritance because I thought it was morally wrong where others actually broke will either by theft or just taking as gifts despite them being specific about wishes. Part of spirit path related to that and when I was the only morally decent person I was obviously mad; I did nothing but horrific things happened to everyone else involved. Step dad had a major stroke, paralyzed for life. My cousin stole from the estate to move to North Carolina with her husband where they’re now divorced and her youngest son attempted suicide recently and aunt was diagnosed with cancer. There’s about 8 more stories like that plus others more personal where it was like screwing me over cursed them where part of what I’ve been curious with astrology relates to that. That might be nemesis… lol. Neptune is my 3rd strongest planet, just saying.
Figured I’d throw that story in because I keep reading only Lot of Spirit and Fortune matter and there may be more to it than that. I literally ran into the nemesis myth yesterday, went “oh s+*^” then got bored looking at the nemesis placement listening to this cast. Have fun with that astrology story. I’m trying to decide if I like the planetary dominant system while the Venus placement is what others point out as most obvious.
Congratulations on the subscriber award.
At 26:35 Chris read out the degrees written in his book, but in my copy it says Mars exalts at 27 degrees. Can anyone confirm if this is correct? Thank you!
Awesome guys thank you 👏🏽👏🏽 Certainly insightful and NOT the bunch of made up woo woo crap I was expecting after seeing Alan White’s take on it 😆 RIP Allen 🙏
I have read in some text that the exalted Mars is at 28 degrees Capricorn. Since you mentioned it's 27 degrees Capricorn, which one is the correct one?
Exciting!
Loved this discussion. I learned a lot!
As an aside, it was painful how Chris brushed over Benjamin's invention so swiftly. Ben was excited to share his zigzag brightness mnemonic and to be celebrated for his cleverness. Yet Chris, in his excitement to continue to explore, said "Alight, next we have....."
I am half joking here as Chris was obviously excited but I did feel Benjamin's excitement and then deflation. Anyone else?
Awesome job on all of this. I agree that it sounds really plausible as an explanation.
I do have a question though.
Why are there Universal exaltation degrees?
If it's tied to darkness & lightness, then why not calculate the MC for 15 degrees Cancer for any point on the planet, and try to work out the exaltation points for your location? Rather than a MC of 17 Aries at with a rising of 15 Cancer, then it's 26 Aries here in Portland. The MC would move into Pisces when you go higher north.
So how does the relative strength of these planets at the equator for an imaginal thema mundi natal chart, then translate into exaltation degrees for anywhere in the world? This is an excellent explanation for why these degrees are what they are, but why do they work everywhere? The origin of these degrees seem to be tied to visual astronomy and right ascension at the equator, and so why should they have any additional power when it may not match up with the dynamics of ascensional times of your location?
Good question! I haven't used the exaltation degrees much in my work, because I was always uncomfortable with not knowing the rationale origins, so now that we do it is sort of an open question whether the rationale is sufficient to incorporate them today. Honestly though tons certain extent isn't there a similar question about the Thema Mundi and the domicile scheme? Or what would make that one universal, and the exaltation degrees not, I guess is one of the questions that would be good to ask and for astrologers to attempt to explain.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast Yeah, I suppose this gets down to some pretty fundamental philosophical foundations for how these axiomatic assumptions get tested and transmitted. There are lots of rules like this that sometimes either get mysteriously or arbitrarily generated, and then they're passed along through the embodied experiences of each generation of astrologers. Sometimes they're rigorously empirically tested, and other times it's received wisdom that isn't necessarily put to deeper social epistemological process for separating the wheat from chaff. There are ways in which individuals have cultivated platforms for teaching, published in magazines, journals, books, embed algorithms within computer software, as well as the oral transmissions that happen at conferences. But all of these methods are subjected to market dynamics, which is sometimes a good enough proxy for what's working and many times what's popular at a massive scale has no connection to any deeper embodied experiences.
I've never really used these degrees for anything myself, but now that there's a philosophical reasoning, then it is actually a lot more compelling to consider. I see this explanation as being coherent within the larger Hellenistic astrology framework, which also has a series of other doctrines and ways of evaluating the condition, quality, context, and relative strength of each planet. And this is actually pretty revealing to some possibilities of some deeper philosophical principles. I suppose I'm really interested in what those principles are, which would allow for the further development of the techniques.
Neoplatonism seems to have a pretty heavy influence in seeing the movement of the heavens as potentially being correlated to some sort of Platonic realm of ideal forms. If the movement of the heavens is connected to dynamic flux of human experience on earth, then there's this dialectic between Heaven and Earth. Seeing this connection between the earth and these deeper Platonic principles raises a lot of questions for how to extrapolate these concepts. Especially as we have software that could dynamically calculate things that the ancients could not. So calculating the visual astronomy on the equator is a fascinating way to see how the balance of lightness and darkness of these planets at these points is connected to the process of building and releasing of metaphoric strength.
Overall, I really love the elegance of the symmetry of this explanation, but it also brings up some deeper questions for me around some of these foundational questions that I've explored in the second issue of The Ascendant magazine.
@@kentbye1830 Oh thank you for being so articulate about this. What you are saying really resonates. I especially love "the dialectic between Heaven and Earth" - the concepts must be observable.
I would like to know your thoughts about how to work with tropical zodiac (and specially with exaltations and depressions/falls) in the southern hemisphere. For us who live in the south it seems problematic. Because if the exaltation scheme is derived from a seasonal aspect, then It would make sense to invert the exaltations and falls down here, but I don't see much people doing that actually. Actually the same problem happens with domiciles and detriments since if they are derived from the 15° Leo the moment of the most heat and when the Sun is "king" in the nothern latitudes, well, down here it's more or less exactly the opposite situation. So I supposedly have the Sun in detriment yet if I follow the seasonal guidelines my Sun would be actually literally in the middle of its domicile since It's at the 15th degree of Aqua in the southern hemisphere. Not even talking about the validity of not starting the zodiac in the southern hemisphere vernal point which would be zero Libra in the north, that would actually put me as a Leo instead of as an Aquarius. But I guess that's another discussion. Still I would really like to see an episode talking a bit about this stuff of how to approach the hemisphere problem within the tropical framework. Even for the northern astrologers I think is a concerning issue since for mundane you are going to use it here and there charts of the southern hemisphere not to talk about consulting clients from this latitudes.
Other than that, I find interesting that the degree of exaltation of South Node is almost at the same point (not sure if exactly the same degree though) of the sidereal ecliptic longitude of the Galactic Center.-
I jumped around revisiting some other episodes, but I figured I’d comment about how much an exalted Jupiter in the 11th sucks and I think it’s all wrong. I’m just kidding, I actually think exaltations are (or can be) much more difficult than domiciles. Not my point, I actually stopped by because I’m about to dive more into degrees and that’s my glaring hole in understanding. Even though I prefer the method used/described here and absolutely despise degree theory.. a horary chart I randomly cast for some reason with a vague answer… Part is I am skeptical of horary and was dropped by how wildly accurate just the description of the person asking was. Scary accurate. The problem is the degrees of the ascendant and ruler are in different degrees with the same meaning in degree theory as the question. That was a small issue I had with horary in that the question doesn’t exactly show up. In that case, if degree theory is credible (looks like classic confirmation bias to me), the exact question with fast moving indicators where it had to be asked then.. the tragedy is I now have to research said degree theory due to that being too bizarre of a coincidence to just be one. Why does it always have to be the thing I don’t like that I have to research? 😆
Just thought I’d share that.
Many traditional astrologers will rectify with Jupiter in the 1st.
I wonder how astrology can work so well worldwide, whule it's while system is based in northern hemisphere. Any author who touches on this subject please?
If the exaltations have an objective truth to them, we can't with certainty, deduce that later astrologers must have copied previous texts. Just like with astronomical discoveries, such as numbering the days of the year, we wouldn't be correct in automatically assuming that two civilisations separated by space or time coming up with the same number must be the result of one copying the other. Could it not just be objective data that different astrologers perceived independently from one another.
Holy mackerel!!! 😱😱🎉🤩🙂
According to Indian Sun is at 10 degrees Aries
If the text we found is correct and this does represent the original rationale for the exaltation degrees, then the 10 degrees in the Indian tradition may represent an error in the transmission when the technique was transmitted to the Indian tradition. David Pingree speculated that this could have happened if one numeral fell out of the text or became illegible, so that 19 became 10 for the exaltation of the Sun, and 15 for Jupiter became 5 in the Indian tradition.
First let me say I've not had a chance to listen to the entirety, so I may not have had a chance to hear if this was covered... The length of days and growing light only applies to Northern Hemisphere. Is that reconciled in this discussion and I haven't gotten there yet?
No we didn't get into that. While on the one hand it is interesting and important to have the tropical basis of the system finally confirmed, on the other hand the tropical zodiac also has its own unique drawbacks that haven't been fully addressed in modern times, as you know. Or focus here was just establishing the rationale outlined by the text though.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast thanks. If you consider the Tropical Vedic Perspective of how the chakras/signs align to the movement of the Sun "northward", and the north part of the planet is related to higher chakras, this may be reconciled, rather than considering lengthening or decreasing of days...this also takes care of the generalized seasonal ideas related to the signs and puts the in the perspective of the Earth's energetic system relating to human chakras...since are made of earth, how the Earth's "chakras" are affected influences human experience too.
@@KriyaYogaOnline - I'm open to the idea of north and south movement being a key figure, but I'm hesitant to have to resort to importing other esoteric formulas into the system I'm working with, and would prefer sticking with something strictly astronomical. One of the things I'm not sure about for example is what makes north "north" universally, so that the head should be there in your chakra system? In a relativistic cosmos, what is the anchor point for the north? Maybe Polaris? But then that changes eventually with precession as well. Maybe due to most of the land mass being there? This is an issue I've been asking astrologers to come up with a solution to for years, as I would really like to find one.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast Yes, determining why North is North, could be a difficult consideration. As for esoteric... The higher chakras are related to clearer more "benefic" states of consciousness. Astrology is associated with understanding states of consciousness related to the human experience isn't it? (I specify human, because I've never had a plant, rock or other creature then a human ask me for a session.) When an astrologer uses the terms benefic or malefic isn't that moving away from a purely "astronomical" viewpoint to a more esoteric one? I completely understand the drive to have sanitized rational for astrology, but I'm not sure that's possible, is it? Or maybe I misunderstood...as text messages via internet are not always easy to get a point across clearly.
Lastly, to be clear I have the utmost respect for Chris and this conversation. It sounds right on. Please keep that in mind.
Question, can astrology be secular? Disconnceted with myths and religions? I always feel a disconnect whenever the myths are mentjoned i like listening to them but they seem like ways that people decided on understanding the planets and their connections to each other. I don't know if this makes sense to ask but it's a point of discomfort I want to solve for myself. Like must we believe the myths to believe in the truth of astrology.
1:25:24
You talked about the 7 traditional planets and their Exaltation but never mentioned anything about the dignities of the new planets (Ceres, Vesta, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) which are the modern rulers of Taurus, Virgo, Aquarius, Pisces, Scorpio. When accounting and considering these Planets one will have to change the Exaltation sign of some planets. Saturn in particular rules Capricorn and the 10th house, this sign is directly situated opposite of Cancer. In traditional astrology Saturn is Exalted in Libra which is the sign of the fall of the Sun being Exalted in Aries. However, Saturn is not Opposite of Leo and the 5th house. The Moon is the opposite and enemy planet. Since the Moon is Exalted in Taurus then by following that logic the same is going to apply to Saturn being Exalted in Scorpio which is the sign of the fall of the Moon. I have also done some research and found the most powerful and wealthy celebrities were also born with Saturn in Scorpio. Uranus is Exalted in Libra not Saturn.