RE: First Proposition, there are bushings or as you spoke of at 39:50 a "shim" / sleeve which convert a Large primer pocket to accept small primers. I have several on hand for future testing. In addition I have better (lower standard Deviation & E.S.) performance using Large Pistol primers in Large Rifle Primer cartridges when shooting black powder. In addition I use a over primer news print disk inside the case to reduce the brisance. For some reason this really helps to reduce the S.D. and E.S.
Being a handloader for a while without a chronograph and only using primers to judge load pressure. I learned about primer thickness naturally. Military and magnum primers are both thicker but for different reasons. Since a mag is going to be at higher pressures u don’t want a blown out primer hole or it to badly crater so their thick. Military rifles have loose firing pins and are auto loaders so u don’t want slam fires from heavy firing pins. Magnum primers are more powerful to reliably burn compressed slow burning powders. I use to load till I got good craters and then back off a little before I had a chrono. U learn quick what primers are hard and soft.
Saw someone testing small rifle primers when he got hang fires and found that load density was the reason for it. So when I load my small primer 308,708,6.5 creed I look for powder the gives good case fill. Always interesting videos guys. Live free and be safe..
I’m working up a load with 6.5 creed with the small rifle primers now. This was a great video and super great info. I have not seen much change in my impact shift when using Hornady powder. Shooting 140grn projectiles. And no over pressure signs. 100 round shot at this point.
Loved both episodes. In this one, at about 39:43 a thought provoking idea is offered with this caveat- "here comes the potentially dumb question"... Of all the discussion, this one sat me up in my chair. Why not? Ok, "now hear me out", is it even plausible, not just possible, to go to the trouble to create inserts to convert brass over to small primer pockets? What are the pros and cons? Much of them were discussed. Here are a couple of mine: 1. Keeping tension/friction on the insert so it captures the primer but allows it to be de-primed after firing, while being retained in the brass. 2. Is easy to insert, perhaps by using a common large primer tool. If the only con is complexity, take a look at re-using military brass. You know, the ones with primer crimps. I don't know anyone who enjoys swaging primer pockets. BUT, if there were a conversion insert designed to easily fit that crimped pocket while locking into the brass, voila!, we can now have high quality, small primer brass that is easy to work. I'm thinking the insert could be designed similar to "0" tolerance piston rings. That would allow them to shrink down to crimp size during insertion, then once past the crimp, open up fully, locked in by the crimp. There would obviously need to be a rim for the shallower small primers to seat on.
Those military crimps are easy. In a single press if u just turn the brass as u start the primer in loading on the press they’ll go in ok. Otherwise a Phillips bit spun in the primer pocket for a sec bevels it enough to load em easy. Military crimps are not a big deal. Even an old drill bit hand spun will bevel em also.
The problem with the water cooled machine gun was hauling all the parts. What replaced that system was barrels that were quick to swap like on the M60. You always carried an extra barrel.
The change in point of impact from first shot in the string to next 4 shots could be that the suppressor is full of fresh air on the first round versus the suppressor being full of burnt powder gases. That's assuming you were flushed the barrel with a fan between strings.
outstanding work brother! FYI in ww2 Snipers would keep ammo in their pockets (body heat) to stay warm for cold bore long sits!! who knows.. ALSO loving 6.5 GRENDEL with small rifle pockets... thank goodnes
Idea on your primer shim idea, it's been tried with berdan to boxer primer conversions, they like to blow out so swage the sleave, and you could hand prime or bench prime the sleeve in with a large primer, swage it, then prime with a small primer cup for the small primer.
During my online searching and snooping off reload equipment and consumables, I’ve come across “shims” or “adapters”, if you will, that will allow you to use either a small or larger rifle primer (don’t recall which one) instead of a 209 style shotgun primer.
I just got my small primer match .308 Starline Brass and loaded up 30 of my subsonic loads using the Hornady 175 gr. Sub-X to go about 1100fps and loaded 30 of my Nosler 168 gr. Accubond LR going about 2390fps. I will see how they compare to my large primer variance.
As a follow-up, I did have tremendous luck with the subsonics, but the ww primers I chose were very soft and the high velocity loads immediately even with low pressure loads extruded into the firing pin hole, so I had to stop that testing and will be unloading those and putting in CCI small rifle instead. I'm hoping that with the harder CCI small rifle or small rifle magnum it will improve this.
Here is a curve ball for you, remember there are primer pockets with large ignition hole and there are primerpockets with small hole , or even Russian 762.39 has no anvil in their primer and has 2 holes offset in their brass primer hole. .....
I’ve loaded converted berdan to boxer brass. I’ve shot em with nasty big and odd shaped flash Holes. I’m convinced they’re not a big deal. Not for normal shooting I’ve not been able to see anything noticeable. Aslong as the charge is burning and reaching the pressure it doesn’t matter that’s what it’s all about lighting em off and getting the burn to pressure. If they hit the pressure the powder burns. If you’re not a top level bench rest shooter it doesn’t matter.
If you really want to try water cooling a rifle. A pc water cooling company called Barrow makes a 240mm radiator with integrated pump & flush mounted fans. Instead of making a clamp on cooler. I would suggest ordering a barrel with full water cooling sleeve from a company that makes integrally suppressed barrels. A water cooling sleeve or jacket is basically a suppressor without baffles that is sealed to the barrel with viton orings. Have them thread the sleeve for two G1/4 BSP fittings & you can use standard pc water cooling fittings/tube. Would still have to fabricate the stock & battery pack.
Would like to see this test with a magnum cartridge 6.5 PRC, 7PRC, 7 Rem Mag, or the like. Would the larger charge weight give a larger variance with the different primers? Great test.
If you are hunting in freezing temperatures you dont wipe the frost from the case of your second shot when the 1st shot warmed the barrel. Thanks for the dive down another rabbit hole. Im glad my rifle shoots factory ammo well.
I would love to see a 10(20) minute talk on thoughts of all the short action magnums.,(wsm vs saum, vs rcm, maybe prc). Just getting a custom 300 saum built.. more room for freebore than 300wsm
For your frost and moisture problem maybe try coating them with WD-40 before or shortly after the cooling process. It worked for NASA and maybe orientating the ammunition up so you only have to touch the bullet as to not transfer any more heat than possible.
The bullet warms faster than a steak because the steak is moatly frozen water so the heat it absorbs just melts the ice rather than raise temperature of the solid. The bullet is a solid material than wont melt sp the heat it absorbs immediately raises the temperature.
Bronze is a poor conductor as long as the primer is not touched. The primer & powder should be hard frozen for at least 1-3 minutes. Powder & primer compound are continuously improving. Even the same compound is being made to a higher more consistent standard. For nearly everyone small verses large primer is a rabbit hole with little value.
From the outside looking in I'm finding it hard to believe that temperature is the issue. NATO uses small and large rifle primers in their respective cartridges, and military ammo is expected to operate anywhere a person can. From the Siberian winter to Kabul summers. If small primers couldn't work reliably we never wouldve gone to a small rifle primer cartridge like 5.56.
To do this perfectly it would take so long. Cuz you would have to shoot 1 round outa a cold rifle. Put it back in freezer machine and let it fully get cold again , on and on ect. It would take a month of Sundays. But it can be done.
🕵️♂️ Your Barrel Temperature Matters In Affecting The Barrel Vibration and Velocity (Velocity Node and Velocity Changes From That Node, for Accuracy)! 🎯 As you know, from your first "cold bore shot", the point of impact always shifts - once the barrel is heated and you take your second shot! 😳
The CCI military large rifle primer does not work very good in bolt action rifles. We got a bunch of military surplus 308 ammo and ran them through our match guns with countless failures to fire then we bought 1,000 CCI military large rifle primers and loaded them for 6.5 creedmoor with H4350 powder and Hornady 140 eld-m and the firing pin constantly pierced the primer. But all of this is in match settings
HELP!! When reloading Is it safe to use a Large Rifle Magnun primer on a 30 06 with the H4350 powder or should i try small rifle primer? Can't find any Large Rifle primers? Thank you for you content
where are you finding small primer 30-06 brass? lol . Yes you can load 30-06 with magnum primers just drop your load by 5% and work up the load till you start to see pressure signs. If you don't have large rifle magnum primers already good luck finding them or get ready to pay through the nose for them. They are hard to get and not cheap if you can find them.
Have you been keeping Jimmy down in the basement? He’s pretty pale for mid summer. Is that why he’s been off the air or has he just been off at unicorn conventions.
Mark, two things... Your openers are amazing. The best part of them is Ryan and Jims reactions. 😂😂. 2nd.... The whole Toyota Tacoma thing that always gets brought up. You are from Washington State, how in the world are you not on the Toyota band wagon.
I see an issue with your very cold ammunition test. going into a warm barrel you're gonna get a lot more expansion on the case. which is gonna lower the pressure of the ammunition. because the case is going to expand to fill the chamber. more so than if the gun and the ammunition were at the same ambient temperature. It would be the same for both small and large primer ammunition. but still you would be Getting abnormal reading because of that case expanding so much more in the warm chamber.
😉 Yes, Mark, You Are Right - Use a Temperature Stable Powder for the Experiment! 👨🔬 I would personally like it to be H4831SC, out of a 270 Winchester! 🤑
Is it just me, or is Jim just a grump? Maybe he doesn't like Mark? I love Mark -- seems like a down to earth, very likable buy. And then there's the professor....Dr. Muck...
🤪 I am going to comment before watching this video (only this time) because I want to make sure that my comments are heard/addressed! 🕵️♂️ I Want to Know HOW You Addressed Primer Seating Depth, Primer Crush Amounts, and Powder Variation (Energy Generated) as a Function of Both Temperature and Powder Charge Size/Type (i.e. Powder Column Size and Shape and Available Energy, Powder Volume Amounts, Case Size Variations and Case Demention Variations, Variations in Pressure Measurements and Pressure Values, etc...)? Their are Lots of Variables to Consider and for Used Brass (if their were any) - the changes in primer pocket size from being previously shot, deburring the primer pocket for reuse, case stretch, etc..! Were All of these Variables Measured and Accounted For in Your Experiments? If Not, then How Would that Effect Your Conclusions and the Validity of them? 🤔
I love these reloading episodes
RE: First Proposition, there are bushings or as you spoke of at 39:50 a "shim" / sleeve which convert a Large primer pocket to accept small primers.
I have several on hand for future testing.
In addition I have better (lower standard Deviation & E.S.) performance using Large Pistol primers in Large Rifle Primer cartridges when shooting black powder. In addition I use a over primer news print disk inside the case to reduce the brisance. For some reason this really helps to reduce the S.D. and E.S.
This makes sense and explains why small magnum primers are the most popular among competition shooters using 6.5cm
Ryan is the only reason I watch this podcast!
Being a handloader for a while without a chronograph and only using primers to judge load pressure. I learned about primer thickness naturally. Military and magnum primers are both thicker but for different reasons. Since a mag is going to be at higher pressures u don’t want a blown out primer hole or it to badly crater so their thick. Military rifles have loose firing pins and are auto loaders so u don’t want slam fires from heavy firing pins. Magnum primers are more powerful to reliably burn compressed slow burning powders. I use to load till I got good craters and then back off a little before I had a chrono. U learn quick what primers are hard and soft.
Saw someone testing small rifle primers when he got hang fires and found that load density was the reason for it. So when I load my small primer 308,708,6.5 creed I look for powder the gives good case fill. Always interesting videos guys. Live free and be safe..
Good info, thanks for sharing.
100% fill, 100% burn, safe pressure, good velocity is the aim.
@@markgarner9832 so my question is are cci small ok to use for 6.5creedmoor?? or should i use cci small magnum??
Johnnys reloading bench found the CCI 41 and Remington 7.5 worked the best but load density was king.
So glad you included magnum primers in your testing. Just getting into reloading and have small primer brass for 6.5 CM and 308.
Do they work reliably with standard primers or do you need magnums for propper ignition?
I’m working up a load with 6.5 creed with the small rifle primers now. This was a great video and super great info.
I have not seen much change in my impact shift when using Hornady powder. Shooting 140grn projectiles. And no over pressure signs. 100 round shot at this point.
Fantastic. Love the mindless banter at the beginning. Well done.
Maybe we need another co-podcast with Hornady?
😂 Primers? The First "Problem" is Finding Them! 🕵️♂️ The Second, Mark's Jokes "Miss-Firing"! 🔥
Loved both episodes. In this one, at about 39:43 a thought provoking idea is offered with this caveat- "here comes the potentially dumb question"... Of all the discussion, this one sat me up in my chair. Why not? Ok, "now hear me out", is it even plausible, not just possible, to go to the trouble to create inserts to convert brass over to small primer pockets? What are the pros and cons? Much of them were discussed.
Here are a couple of mine:
1. Keeping tension/friction on the insert so it captures the primer but allows it to be de-primed after firing, while being retained in the brass.
2. Is easy to insert, perhaps by using a common large primer tool.
If the only con is complexity, take a look at re-using military brass. You know, the ones with primer crimps. I don't know anyone who enjoys swaging primer pockets. BUT, if there were a conversion insert designed to easily fit that crimped pocket while locking into the brass, voila!, we can now have high quality, small primer brass that is easy to work.
I'm thinking the insert could be designed similar to "0" tolerance piston rings. That would allow them to shrink down to crimp size during insertion, then once past the crimp, open up fully, locked in by the crimp. There would obviously need to be a rim for the shallower small primers to seat on.
Those military crimps are easy. In a single press if u just turn the brass as u start the primer in loading on the press they’ll go in ok. Otherwise a Phillips bit spun in the primer pocket for a sec bevels it enough to load em easy. Military crimps are not a big deal. Even an old drill bit hand spun will bevel em also.
The problem with the water cooled machine gun was hauling all the parts. What replaced that system was barrels that were quick to swap like on the M60. You always carried an extra barrel.
I've noticed the 6.5 CM Lapua SRP cases do have slightly smaller flash holes
Well done guys. I really enjoyed this podcast since i have been doing similar primer comparisons with 6.5CR.
The change in point of impact from first shot in the string to next 4 shots could be that the suppressor is full of fresh air on the first round versus the suppressor being full of burnt powder gases. That's assuming you were flushed the barrel with a fan between strings.
outstanding work brother! FYI in ww2 Snipers would keep ammo in their pockets (body heat) to stay warm for cold bore long sits!! who knows.. ALSO loving 6.5 GRENDEL with small rifle pockets... thank goodnes
😎 I Like Your Idea on Your Barrel Temperature Measurements Jim! 🔥
Magnum primers do have a harder cup. 460sw is a good test bed to display the difference of magnum vs. standard primers.
Idea on your primer shim idea, it's been tried with berdan to boxer primer conversions, they like to blow out so swage the sleave, and you could hand prime or bench prime the sleeve in with a large primer, swage it, then prime with a small primer cup for the small primer.
PSA:
Sprite = Coca Cola company
Sierra Mist = Pepsi company (which has been switched to Starry in early 2023)
7UP = Dr Pepper Snapple company
During my online searching and snooping off reload equipment and consumables, I’ve come across “shims” or “adapters”, if you will, that will allow you to use either a small or larger rifle primer (don’t recall which one) instead of a 209 style shotgun primer.
More reloading episodes please!!!
Yes. Hot, cold. Yes, test them all. I'm in👍🏼🇺🇲
I hope you made a list of everything you talked about, I am very interested.
Great episode!
Great show guys.
Up here in northern Wi., most of the time in the summer months the mosquitoes are soooo bad,we do most of our shooting in cooler times.
I would love to see this with a couple different powder types and speeds, as well as another brand/other brands of primers
Your freezer should have no problem getting below zero. Otherwise you ice cream wouldn’t be very hard lol
Idk why but I'm so blown away about Jim NOT being a Tacoma fan. It might be because he has a subaru, but it's just surprising to me 56:56
I just got my small primer match .308 Starline Brass and loaded up 30 of my subsonic loads using the Hornady 175 gr. Sub-X to go about 1100fps and loaded 30 of my Nosler 168 gr. Accubond LR going about 2390fps. I will see how they compare to my large primer variance.
As a follow-up, I did have tremendous luck with the subsonics, but the ww primers I chose were very soft and the high velocity loads immediately even with low pressure loads extruded into the firing pin hole, so I had to stop that testing and will be unloading those and putting in CCI small rifle instead. I'm hoping that with the harder CCI small rifle or small rifle magnum it will improve this.
Here is a curve ball for you, remember there are primer pockets with large ignition hole and there are primerpockets with small hole , or even Russian 762.39 has no anvil in their primer and has 2 holes offset in their brass primer hole. .....
I’ve loaded converted berdan to boxer brass. I’ve shot em with nasty big and odd shaped flash
Holes. I’m convinced they’re not a big deal. Not for normal shooting I’ve not been able to see anything noticeable. Aslong as the charge is burning and reaching the pressure it doesn’t matter that’s what it’s all about lighting em off and getting the burn to pressure. If they hit the pressure the powder burns. If you’re not a top level bench rest shooter it doesn’t matter.
Keep ‘em coming!
Federal power-shok 95gr v-max and 140gr SP for 6.5CM are both loaded with small rifle primers, in case anyone is wondering
I work in a lab and this scratched an itch I didn't know I had.
If you really want to try water cooling a rifle. A pc water cooling company called Barrow makes a 240mm radiator with integrated pump & flush mounted fans. Instead of making a clamp on cooler. I would suggest ordering a barrel with full water cooling sleeve from a company that makes integrally suppressed barrels. A water cooling sleeve or jacket is basically a suppressor without baffles that is sealed to the barrel with viton orings. Have them thread the sleeve for two G1/4 BSP fittings & you can use standard pc water cooling fittings/tube. Would still have to fabricate the stock & battery pack.
Would like to see this test with a magnum cartridge 6.5 PRC, 7PRC, 7 Rem Mag, or the like. Would the larger charge weight give a larger variance with the different primers? Great test.
If you are hunting in freezing temperatures you dont wipe the frost from the case of your second shot when the 1st shot warmed the barrel. Thanks for the dive down another rabbit hole. Im glad my rifle shoots factory ammo well.
Looking forward to Ryan discovering Design Of Experiments (DOE). He has good engineering instincts.
I would love to see a 10(20) minute talk on thoughts of all the short action magnums.,(wsm vs saum, vs rcm, maybe prc). Just getting a custom 300 saum built.. more room for freebore than 300wsm
Episode 300 comin... Winmag baby!
For your frost and moisture problem maybe try coating them with WD-40 before or shortly after the cooling process. It worked for NASA and maybe orientating the ammunition up so you only have to touch the bullet as to not transfer any more heat than possible.
As I always heard it, 6.5 CM 'prefers' small primers because large primers have a higher tendency to blow out at the upper limits of charges.
There is a TH-cam video, an old one on forming primer pocket holes, small rifle and large rifle
The guys down in the tunnel at the Sierra factory told me they shoot as fast as possible to keep the “chemistry” inside the barrels the same.
The bullet warms faster than a steak because the steak is moatly frozen water so the heat it absorbs just melts the ice rather than raise temperature of the solid. The bullet is a solid material than wont melt sp the heat it absorbs immediately raises the temperature.
Hi . You said somebody made small rifle primer 22-250 brass can you you tell me who please. I can t find any :(
Bring in the 7SAW!
Mark should start his own podcast…funny guy
Small RPs generally have a more reliable ignition
i love this stufff!!!
I'd like to see the same testing with a ball powder that is temperature sensitive
Ryan kept referring to the change in MD's, what is the MD's
MV= Muzzle velocity. Not MDs
Lapua makes SR 243 win or at least did about 5 years ago when I bought some.
Bronze is a poor conductor as long as the primer is not touched. The primer & powder should be hard frozen for at least 1-3 minutes. Powder & primer compound are continuously improving. Even the same compound is being made to a higher more consistent standard. For nearly everyone small verses large primer is a rabbit hole with little value.
Magnum cup thikness is thicker, compounds are different , some are corrosive , some use glass powder to help ignite ..
I want to know if using the small rifle primers might make the cartridges less sensitive to heat.
From the outside looking in I'm finding it hard to believe that temperature is the issue.
NATO uses small and large rifle primers in their respective cartridges, and military ammo is expected to operate anywhere a person can. From the Siberian winter to Kabul summers.
If small primers couldn't work reliably we never wouldve gone to a small rifle primer cartridge like 5.56.
Sierra Mist is PepsiCo and got renamed Starry.😂
Have you contacted Hornady about this? Seems like something they would have already done. 🤷♂️
We make our own sprite like soda with pine needles. It’s pretty tasty.
Sierra Mist is now called Starry, sorry Jimmy
Could you use a spent large rifle primer to make the sleeve for the small primers. Pat. pen. LOL.
RCBS primer swagging tool number two model
To do this perfectly it would take so long. Cuz you would have to shoot 1 round outa a cold rifle. Put it back in freezer machine and let it fully get cold again , on and on ect. It would take a month of Sundays. But it can be done.
Any thoughts on the 6mm saw? Aka the 6mm/.223 or 6x45
🕵️♂️ Your Barrel Temperature Matters In Affecting The Barrel Vibration and Velocity (Velocity Node and Velocity Changes From That Node, for Accuracy)! 🎯 As you know, from your first "cold bore shot", the point of impact always shifts - once the barrel is heated and you take your second shot! 😳
When you need an applied statistician and data scientist, let me know.
There was a Browning machine gun that was water cooled.
The CCI military large rifle primer does not work very good in bolt action rifles. We got a bunch of military surplus 308 ammo and ran them through our match guns with countless failures to fire then we bought 1,000 CCI military large rifle primers and loaded them for 6.5 creedmoor with H4350 powder and Hornady 140 eld-m and the firing pin constantly pierced the primer. But all of this is in match settings
So Santa is probably a good shot then??
HELP!! When reloading Is it safe to use a Large Rifle Magnun primer on a 30 06 with the H4350 powder or should i try small rifle primer? Can't find any Large Rifle primers? Thank you for you content
where are you finding small primer 30-06 brass? lol . Yes you can load 30-06 with magnum primers just drop your load by 5% and work up the load till you start to see pressure signs. If you don't have large rifle magnum primers already good luck finding them or get ready to pay through the nose for them. They are hard to get and not cheap if you can find them.
Flash hole is not the same!
You guys ....chit chat way tooooo much....let's get on with the subject....and cover your points.
It is like the ADHD podcast lol. still good though. Maybe the "squirrel" Podcast is more like it lol.
no, no more questions!😡😆
To much time on their hands, overthinking things. Hunters aren't going to stop hunting in the field to worry about this. Lol love the podcasts.
Have you been keeping Jimmy down in the basement? He’s pretty pale for mid summer. Is that why he’s been off the air or has he just been off at unicorn conventions.
Everyone forgets the 6.8 SPC. I got two type of brass, Hornady ( small) and Rem. (large).
What a fired large primer house's a unfired small primer
Why don't you just rent a Sixty foot freezer tractor-trailer.
Mark, two things... Your openers are amazing. The best part of them is Ryan and Jims reactions. 😂😂.
2nd.... The whole Toyota Tacoma thing that always gets brought up. You are from Washington State, how in the world are you not on the Toyota band wagon.
I see an issue with your very cold ammunition test. going into a warm barrel you're gonna get a lot more expansion on the case. which is gonna lower the pressure of the ammunition. because the case is going to expand to fill the chamber. more so than if the gun and the ammunition were at the same ambient temperature. It would be the same for both small and large primer ammunition. but still you would be Getting abnormal reading because of that case expanding so much more in the warm chamber.
#Science
😉 Yes, Mark, You Are Right - Use a Temperature Stable Powder for the Experiment! 👨🔬 I would personally like it to be H4831SC, out of a 270 Winchester! 🤑
Naturally, you would have to shave. The rim
I’ve been reloading for 10 years and didn’t know there was small rifle primed 308 brass.
Palma brass..Lappua
Is it just me, or is Jim just a grump? Maybe he doesn't like Mark? I love Mark -- seems like a down to earth, very likable buy. And then there's the professor....Dr. Muck...
🤪 I am going to comment before watching this video (only this time) because I want to make sure that my comments are heard/addressed! 🕵️♂️ I Want to Know HOW You Addressed Primer Seating Depth, Primer Crush Amounts, and Powder Variation (Energy Generated) as a Function of Both Temperature and Powder Charge Size/Type (i.e. Powder Column Size and Shape and Available Energy, Powder Volume Amounts, Case Size Variations and Case Demention Variations, Variations in Pressure Measurements and Pressure Values, etc...)? Their are Lots of Variables to Consider and for Used Brass (if their were any) - the changes in primer pocket size from being previously shot, deburring the primer pocket for reuse, case stretch, etc..! Were All of these Variables Measured and Accounted For in Your Experiments? If Not, then How Would that Effect Your Conclusions and the Validity of them? 🤔
Get to the point! Don't need to hear about everything under the sun!
Those are some lame jokes to open. Lol
yes, just dive into the numbers for God sake. it's been 15 minutes of talking, but saying almost nothing.😉