I've done a decent amount of reloading but I wouldn't call myself an avid reloader and this is the first time I have heard you could get brass in both large and small primer varieties. You learn something new every day... Thanks!
Big advantage of the small rifle primer brass is it has more brass in the case head making it stronger. Palma shooters tend to load their rounds pretty hot as it's needed to get the 155 grain bullets to the target accurately from the 1,000 yard line.
Johnny, my father just gave me his remmington 7mm mag he bought 30 years ago. Its priceless and not a scratch on it. He reloaded for it for years, but his health is too bad to allow him to continue to. I'd love if you could do a video on reloading 7mm mag, so I can follow along and maybe keep the tradition alive. Love all the videos you do! Thanks.
7mm mag is nothing special to reload. Check out Johnny's vids on his 300 win mag, there's great information for reloading magnum cartridges, but except for brass sizing there's nothing really special.
The small primer 308 cases are usually bench rest cases. The old Remington version used to have thin walls / heads, for more capacity. The idea was to allow a similar amount of powder at a LOWER pressure and they were not meant to be loaded to maximum 308 pressure loads. The Remington 7 1/2 primer is super hot and is called the bench rest primer by Remington and is meant for full size bench rest cases.
That's crazy. I've been using Lapua cases for 6.5CM with RL16, RL17, and H4350 with the CCI small mag rifle primer. The H335 has rocked in the 5.56 also. Glad I've never ran into hangfire issues!
between 7.62Nato and 5.56Nato i've loaded and shot over 20k rounds. my total round count for handloading is 40k rounds. I have never had a hangfire either.only 1 round in 5.56 didn't go bang (CCI Small rifle) in a match one time. even the 5k Tula primers all worked great.
I recall the discussion when small primer Palma brass was introduced as follows: 1) You get more loadings with the smaller flash hole as there is more material in the case bottom to resist "loosening" 2) Smaller primers make for "softer" ignition. This means you can use more powder to achieve higher velocities without exceeding the SAAMI limit. This being like using a less "quick" propellant.
Well Johnny, its been a fantastic run! I hope all is well with you and yours. Still the best reloading channel ever! Just give us a message to let us know that you didn't blow your face off!
All i got was LaRue MBT for the WIN! No just kidding. I really liked this. Haven't seen a reloading vid on any other channel actually aiming for a failure. Most folks go "well that didnt work, we wont do that again." I like seeing someone search for and point out the flaw so that they/we never encounter the same failure point. Thats really the only way to make real progress.
Always very good contents in your program.Very valid stuff and we need mor of such programs and real live cenarious.Most people don't even bother about it but this is a distinguishing vactor of a pro to and amature in later live!!Knowledge!!
It has to do with the empty volume in the cartridge and the primer size. Lower charges (higher empty volume) equals lower ignition pressures which provoke hangfires. Large primers will increase the pressure compared to small primers hence improving such conditions. Keep that in mind because if you are going to test the issue you need a proper strategy to control these variables. Not doing so will give you inconclusive results.
Another good video Johnny, pretty much learned reloading from your videos. Went out yesterday for the first time with my new Bergara B14, new SRD762 and my first 308 reloads. After zeroing scope was able to do 1” groups at 100yds. At 200yds on steel grouped but shooting very low and at 300yds had to hold really high to get on steel. My load was 168gr FMJ, 36.4gr IMR 3031. I’ve loaded the first 200 rounds very conservative so it could be why I have so much drop at 300yds. Kinda off the subject but I appreciate all your videos. Merry Christmas Luther
Great video.. I like the 308 series of videos in the Ar platform. A side by side with a bolt action shooting the same loads and large primer vs Small to see if either would benefit from large primer vs small.
Really enjoyed the video Johnny ive been reloading for awhile and one thing ive figured out is there are 2 types of reloaders one type finds one thing and sticks with it the other is like me ive got to try every thing
I've got an obsession with stockpiling good ammo so I'll buy 1000 bullets if a good self defense type soft point. Right now I'm doing 2k trophy bonded bear claws. And I'll find a really good load and then just pump out all the bullets with that good load. I've got gold dots stockpiled, 75gr hpbt's, ss109's, tbbc's, tracers.... I just have a thing about having lots of ammo that's all consistent with itself instead of 50 different bullets with different loads that all need their own scope settings.
Man your videos should be in the shooting hall of fame...this whole primer series (to me) is epic! (You tube) should never penalize you for making such informational vids!
Great video. What I understand from talking to a lot of bench rest shooters, if you run small primers on rounds that are designed for large, like the .308 or 6.5 Creed and others you can run into reliability issues if you do not run magnum or bench rest primers. Something that burns a lot hotter. If consistent ignition is the goal say for hunting then you should stick with the primers that the case was originally designed for. If you want the smallest standard deviation and POTENTIALLY smaller groups then small primers can be the answer. Got this same information from multiple sources I always just run Large primers in standard short action case and small primers in mini action style cases.
thank you for the testing. keep testing to find the best. i will definitely not use small over large while hunting. not worth a hang fire. good knowledge to know.
Great video in comparison there with small vs large. This my experience over 5 decades of reloading. Knock on wood, I have yet to have only one, in all my reloading to have a hangfire.. it didn't ignite at all and it was a 280. I have used a lot of h335 in my 223's. I have used all brands of primers, Win Sr, Rem 7 1/2, CCi 400, 450, br4, 41, fed 205match,. Large rifle the same. I have never used SB nor Tul. What I have learned for me, with ball powders is high load density equals lower sd's. I watched a video that Rick Jamison did testing primers and flash. Could tell a slight difference in magnum primers. I would say loading density nearer 100% was the factor. I had a favorite load in my bolt Weatherby of H380 and a WLR with 165 btips, Rem brass, that literally was a clover leaf all the time. I do everything to the brass, flash hole, primer pockets and weigh them to .25 grain. I don't neck turn much. I did 308 comparison with 308 ppu brass I had with LG rifle primers. The flash hole of the ppu had a smaller flash hole. I did the 3/64th bit to them. Had a slight difference with small hole lower SD with wlr. I think also when you have a smaller flash hole it doesn't create as much pressure in the primer when you are nearer max charges. Once again great video and my 2 cents worth.
LOAD UP SOME BERGER CLASSICS OR VLD WITH THIS SETUP PLEASE! PS: I’ve been really missing out on this channel. Best reloading channel ive found, oh well, back to binge watching!
Double base powders usually require a hotter or a primer with a longer burn. due to the facts the double base powder graduals are coated with graphite's.
I always heard that ball powders were used for military ammo because it fed easier through hi-speed reloading machines. It was considered safe (slight overloads burned in the barrel or blew out the muzzle), but it was dirty. Any smaller extruded (like 4227) that nearly filled the case gave me good results.
I agree .308 videos are fun. My wife is shooting a T/C Compass in .308 lately. She is working up to 1000 yards. Last month she reached out 610 yards on 12" steel targets. Fun stuff!
mutantmutton yes Sir I’m having so much fun with my rig and this cartridge. I’m extremely new to reloading so it extremely cool that Johnny is doing this. And I can follow along.
To be honest, I've never done much shooting with 'small flashhole' brass in .308. I tried some out when I first found some of the the Lapua small hole brass, but never saw any real gains over the standard Federal Match brass I've used forever. I tried some of the S&B primers but found they weren't consistent enough for my tastes with ball powders. Most of my manuals recommend magnum primers with ball powders, but I've had good luck with CCI Bench Rest primers. I've been shooting 45.6 grains of Varget with that primer under a 168 SMK and getting right around 2700 fps out of a 20" LR-10 with no signs of excessive pressure at 80°F ambient. Groups are sub-MOA with SD's hovering around 12-14 depending on the temps on any given day. Your millage, of course, may vary. Great video. I'm looking forward to more.
Yeah, CCI primers are definitely not "hot" by any stretch of the imagination. W-W, R-P, and Fed are all hotter in comparable primer types than CCI. They are highly reliable and ignite really really long as you hit them with a strong enough strike.
Not surprised Sellier & Bellot primes we not quality components. Bought 500 rounds of their .22 long rifle bullets and over 200 would not cycle my Ruger Mark IV. The only ammo that would not cycle.
I think something needs to be said about the development of the Lapua 308 case with small primer pocket and small flash whole. That brass is labeled as "Palma" , the Palma event is fired at countries that speak English originally using the Nations Military cartridge in this case it's 7.62 NATO. the requirements are the competition is at 800-900-1000 meters/yards. Through a bolt action rifle which is supplied by the host country. The hosting country's also supplies the ammunition that each competitor needs, for the weeks long event. Every host country since the 1990's has been using the Lapua case with standard primer pockets. But switched to the small primer pocket with small flash hole, some time more recently. When Australia hosted the event they loaded the ammo with Varget powder, and when the USA hosted , the Sierra 155 grain Plama Match King bullets became standard. The small flash hole is to reduce the back pressure which blows out primer pockets in small cartridges as used in Bench Rest shooting. Way back when the Berdan primed cartridge case that had 2 small flash holes rather the one large one was for the same reason, reduce back pressure that can cause a flame to enter the action and into the face of the shooter.
The old school solution to a half filled brass case was to pack kapok (dryer lint works) atop the powder charge to keep the powder up against the flash hole..
Drop the IMR 4895 .5 gr. Should be a match to the two other groups. Me I would use the CCI 200s and new brass and I bet the group are going to be really good and FPS will be very good. My self I wouldn't even mess with the small primer holes in the .308 but that is just me. Keep the videos coming. I love the stuff. I've been reloading with my dad at the age of 11. Now at almost 62 I still love to reload. Rifle, Shotgun and pistol. Great work.
you are on a roll. i would bet if you reduced thee load of the 4895 large primer to match the fps of the small primers the group size would match. i look forward to part two.
I just went through this decision in 308 brass. Ended up going with large primer Lapua this time just because I am setting on a lot of 210m and because my decapping pins are all standard size. After I use up most of my 210m’s I’m going to be switching to SRP brass in 308, 6.5 snd 6 creedmoor in hopes of longer primer pocket life.
As usual great video. I do have a question. What do you think would happen if you reshot the loads that gave you all the hang fires with a magnum primer?
Ol target shooters know that ball powders can be hard to light with some primers. W748 and H335 are the worst. Suggest that the test is re run with Federal or CCI matchprimers and Varget.. the only ball powder I run these days is CFE Black in a 17 Hornet.
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I do not remember the channel, but it deals with long range accuracy. That channel mentioned that he had found better accuracy with small primer brass. He mentioned Starline now sells both large and small primer and he was going to stay with the small primer. So, you are the second person I have heard that Sally's primers are more accurate.
Before I pass the 2min mark. 358 Win users love small primer Lapua brass. Ditto for many 7.62x39/Grendel wildcatters, especially if going "larger diameter". The argument is almost always "you get about 100fps for free". About to watch the rest of the video, curious if the conclusions will bare this out. Post video : interesting, now I will have to do some 358 testing with large and small Lapua brass
Savage F/TR Palma rifle., 1/13 twist, 30 inch barrel. Lapua palma brass. CCI Bench Rest primers (br4), 43.1 gr Varget, 155 gr. Sierra Palma bullets. Use crappy primers get crappy results. Only one "no bang" so far and I think it was a plugged flash hole or a bad primer. Leaning toward the plugged flash hole. (walnut)
S&B seems capable of some okay groups, I would feel guilty taking them off the inventory list just for that reason; certainly never waste powder either (I was like "Johnny don't fire all of them! 5 hang-fires'll do") really I would ask Obi wan and he'd say patience. Then next time you go on in to the store and just see which isn't in stock ;) decide later and maybe you won't have to. I would focus on some more optimal primer situation with 4895 and investigate the standard deviations in flash hole size amongst different sm primers
I read an article by a competitive prone shooter who's 300 yard load was a moly coated 168 SMK, 47.0 grains of 4895( I think H, but it may have been IMR) in Lake City or Lapua brass, and PMC/Russian large rifle primers. In 30-06! Think you have some powder shaking in 308? Of course this was a bolt gun, and he didn't discuss hang fires, he did say that before loading it into the rifle, he would tip it bullet up to make sure of ( or make him feel more confident in) a complete powder burn. Now I realize in an Ar platform, to test this, you would need to point the whole rifle at the sky before every shot, which is umm... silly or a more englishy word. Just thought I'd give you another variable, just in case. Your videos are great. CWF
Hi Johnny. The PRS crowd has produced some interesting data for large vs. small primers using H4350 in large doses. Generally, accuracy was too close to call one better than the other, but the small primer did have an overall lower MV. I even have read an article in Precision Shooter with similar findings. Curious though, why not use IMR 4064 and better quality primers than going with a known poor combination of a spherical powder and crappy primers? Keep up the good work. 🛩 Martin.
Hahaha.. forget the drill bit...an overzealous pocket hole reaming, will (accidentally) yield the same results.It is very easy to do on those powered Hornady case prep tools.About 1/2 way through a batch, I noticed the flash home size difference.I didn't want to trash those new cases, so I decided to work my loads to this brass case modification.Also, for quality control and a desire to keep things simple, I did not want to worry about keeping track of two different cases.I never did try any loads with the smaller holes.Now I am curious to see how much this affects my groups?
You suck Johnny, You do do your best to do a crap group with 10 shots and you kick my ass with my best handload 5 shot group haha Keep up the awesome work mate Cheers from down under
It's the toilet bowl vortex debate all over again, in your hemisphere the rifling needs to turn to the left, up here in the states we get away with right hand twist
Small primer brass is marginally better shows up in the coarse of a shooting season. But it was more consistent. Consistent often leads to accuracy. New brass is probably more accurate, also what is the H20 capacity of Palma vs Regular 308 brass. Think you really covered it. Shoot stick not ball for small primer and watch the cold weather....
Been shooting srp laupa brass in 6.5cm. Srp brass in this and 308 offers lower ignition energy and in both cals this results in about 100fps less for a given charge because of lower energy of ignition. In cold and sometimes warm weather this can mean hang fires. The trade off is longer case life and better sd/es. Murom kvb223magnum primers and cci 450 both work well. In 6.5cm a 139 scenar and rs62 powder using these primers resulted in low zeros groups averaging in liw 0.2s. I was averaging 0.25" groups with a best Of 0.18. Lapua brought out smaller primer brass to lower sds as it worked well in 6.5x47 for bench rest shooters and extends brass life for hot loads. You cannot compare sd or groups on the same charge though so your conclusions need to be based on potential accuracy based on best nodes and loads for both. Try about 42.5 to max 43gr h4350 in srp lapua brass for 6.5cm using the 139gr scenar. That should give superb results. Its equivalent to 44grs62 for the same combo using cci450.
Personally I believe you need to pick a different primer for you small rifle primer. I have had some good groups using S&B primers but I have also had the hang fires. Never experienced the hang fires with other small rifle primers. Personally I feel it is due to the design of the S&B myself. It seems to have a sharper shoulder which to me creates a flatter surface for the firing pin to strike. All other small rifle primers seem to have a slight dome shape compared to the S&B.
So I’m still in the research part of reloading I just got a sonic cleaner to clean my brass. I’m still figuring out what I want to do!for a reloading room/ bench I was thinking of the spare bedroom, however it’s carpeted, is this a static risk that could ignite the powder? I know it’s not like black powder but was still something I wanted to get figured out first. Wife would be pissed if I blew the room up.
Small primers are used to give a tiny bit more accuracy than large primers. Not noticeable to average shooter, but in competition the tiny amount can be win or lose Small primer does a slight less disturbing of the bullet till the powder starts to burn is the theory
I have two 6.5 Creedmoors. I use Lapua brass with CCI 450 magnum primers. I'm on my second barrel on both rifles and I have never had a hang fire. (H4350 and RL-17) You should test them in the small primer/small flash hole test. Also, I have read that the yellowing of powder is from soap residue (not rinsing enough) from wet washing (tumbling or ultrasonic) cleaning. I'm not sure if that is true or not. Maybe one of your viewers has some input on that.
And now for something completely different. What is the length a T/C Compass barrel is full diameter ahead of the action/tenon threads? It would be interesting to rechamber it to a 6.5/30 BR. Thanks
On those cases that had hang fires was the primer seated completely with the 3 anvil feet at the primer pocket bottom, or did the firing pin push the primer to the fully seated position after it fired?
does a softer primer strike influence the primer ignition capability? I would run the same test with the original trigger group to see the results on the SB PRIMER....IMHO. Nice video once again.
I've done a decent amount of reloading but I wouldn't call myself an avid reloader and this is the first time I have heard you could get brass in both large and small primer varieties. You learn something new every day... Thanks!
When shooting a large rifle chamber with a small primer, I use CCI 450’s. They’re small rifle magnums. They give off more heat for a more even burn.
Was wondering if this has been tried because I would have.
Big advantage of the small rifle primer brass is it has more brass in the case head making it stronger. Palma shooters tend to load their rounds pretty hot as it's needed to get the 155 grain bullets to the target accurately from the 1,000 yard line.
Johnny, my father just gave me his remmington 7mm mag he bought 30 years ago. Its priceless and not a scratch on it. He reloaded for it for years, but his health is too bad to allow him to continue to. I'd love if you could do a video on reloading 7mm mag, so I can follow along and maybe keep the tradition alive.
Love all the videos you do! Thanks.
7mm mag is nothing special to reload. Check out Johnny's vids on his 300 win mag, there's great information for reloading magnum cartridges, but except for brass sizing there's nothing really special.
The small primer 308 cases are usually bench rest cases. The old Remington version used to have thin walls / heads, for more capacity. The idea was to allow a similar amount of powder at a LOWER pressure and they were not meant to be loaded to maximum 308 pressure loads. The Remington 7 1/2 primer is super hot and is called the bench rest primer by Remington and is meant for full size bench rest cases.
That's crazy. I've been using Lapua cases for 6.5CM with RL16, RL17, and H4350 with the CCI small mag rifle primer. The H335 has rocked in the 5.56 also. Glad I've never ran into hangfire issues!
between 7.62Nato and 5.56Nato i've loaded and shot over 20k rounds. my total round count for handloading is 40k rounds. I have never had a hangfire either.only 1 round in 5.56 didn't go bang (CCI Small rifle) in a match one time. even the 5k Tula primers all worked great.
Good validation testing. Helps our overall understanding of the problem. I'm looking forward to the next video. Thanks!
Love getting a notification that you posted a new video. Can’t get enough of your channel. Thanks for taking time to do all of this.
i remember the feeling in 1977 when my MAD magazine arrived at my mailbox. It's like a JRB video posting.
Years and years ago I been with u johnny....just realized after all this time, excellent hand model lol
Thanks for picking this back up. With the small primer pocket brass out there I found this very interesting.
Glad to see the videos back. Two things I look forward to watching; Forged in Fire and JRB.
I recall the discussion when small primer Palma brass was introduced as follows: 1) You get more loadings with the smaller flash hole as there is more material in the case bottom to resist "loosening" 2) Smaller primers make for "softer" ignition. This means you can use more powder to achieve higher velocities without exceeding the SAAMI limit. This being like using a less "quick" propellant.
Well Johnny, its been a fantastic run! I hope all is well with you and yours. Still the best reloading channel ever! Just give us a message to let us know that you didn't blow your face off!
I have some S&B rifle primers I've not used yet. I'll watch out for these hang fires. Wow! Great info 👍 🙂
Great information! Awesome 10 shot groups as well.
I enjoy your videos. Would like to see you do a series of .458 Socom. Thanks for going into detail and the having a variety of the calibers you shoot.
All i got was LaRue MBT for the WIN! No just kidding. I really liked this. Haven't seen a reloading vid on any other channel actually aiming for a failure. Most folks go "well that didnt work, we wont do that again." I like seeing someone search for and point out the flaw so that they/we never encounter the same failure point. Thats really the only way to make real progress.
Always very good contents in your program.Very valid stuff and we need mor of such programs and real live cenarious.Most people don't even bother about it but this is a distinguishing vactor of a pro to and amature in later live!!Knowledge!!
Very educational. Big thanks for your efforts!
It has to do with the empty volume in the cartridge and the primer size. Lower charges (higher empty volume) equals lower ignition pressures which provoke hangfires. Large primers will increase the pressure compared to small primers hence improving such conditions. Keep that in mind because if you are going to test the issue you need a proper strategy to control these variables. Not doing so will give you inconclusive results.
Another good video Johnny, pretty much learned reloading from your videos. Went out yesterday for the first time with my new Bergara B14, new SRD762 and my first 308 reloads. After zeroing scope was able to do 1” groups at 100yds. At 200yds on steel grouped but shooting very low and at 300yds had to hold really high to get on steel. My load was 168gr FMJ, 36.4gr IMR 3031. I’ve loaded the first 200 rounds very conservative so it could be why I have so much drop at 300yds. Kinda off the subject but I appreciate all your videos. Merry Christmas
Luther
Great video.. I like the 308 series of videos in the Ar platform. A side by side with a bolt action shooting the same loads and large primer vs Small to see if either would benefit from large primer vs small.
Semi vs bolt would be an interesting video.
I'm loving all the 308 videos jrb. Good stuff
Really enjoyed the video Johnny ive been reloading for awhile and one thing ive figured out is there are 2 types of reloaders one type finds one thing and sticks with it the other is like me ive got to try every thing
I've got an obsession with stockpiling good ammo so I'll buy 1000 bullets if a good self defense type soft point. Right now I'm doing 2k trophy bonded bear claws. And I'll find a really good load and then just pump out all the bullets with that good load. I've got gold dots stockpiled, 75gr hpbt's, ss109's, tbbc's, tracers.... I just have a thing about having lots of ammo that's all consistent with itself instead of 50 different bullets with different loads that all need their own scope settings.
That new barrel is 🔥🔥🔥
Man your videos should be in the shooting hall of fame...this whole primer series (to me) is epic! (You tube) should never penalize you for making such informational vids!
TH-cam has shit for a brain.
Hey Johnny great video
Great video. What I understand from talking to a lot of bench rest shooters, if you run small primers on rounds that are designed for large, like the .308 or 6.5 Creed and others you can run into reliability issues if you do not run magnum or bench rest primers. Something that burns a lot hotter. If consistent ignition is the goal say for hunting then you should stick with the primers that the case was originally designed for. If you want the smallest standard deviation and POTENTIALLY smaller groups then small primers can be the answer. Got this same information from multiple sources I always just run Large primers in standard short action case and small primers in mini action style cases.
Thank you. Amazing job. Glad I just ordered 4895
thank you for the testing. keep testing to find the best. i will definitely not use small over large while hunting. not worth a hang fire. good knowledge to know.
Thank you a ton Johnny
I know nothing about reloading. It's all very interesting to me.
Might not be the most exciting video but still good information none the less. Always enjoy a good 308 video. Thanks!
Great video in comparison there with small vs large. This my experience over 5 decades of reloading. Knock on wood, I have yet to have only one, in all my reloading to have a hangfire.. it didn't ignite at all and it was a 280. I have used a lot of h335 in my 223's. I have used all brands of primers, Win Sr, Rem 7 1/2, CCi 400, 450, br4, 41, fed 205match,. Large rifle the same. I have never used SB nor Tul.
What I have learned for me, with ball powders is high load density equals lower sd's. I watched a video that Rick Jamison did testing primers and flash. Could tell a slight difference in magnum primers. I would say loading density nearer 100% was the factor. I had a favorite load in my bolt Weatherby of H380 and a WLR with 165 btips, Rem brass, that literally was a clover leaf all the time. I do everything to the brass, flash hole, primer pockets and weigh them to .25 grain. I don't neck turn much.
I did 308 comparison with 308 ppu brass I had with LG rifle primers. The flash hole of the ppu had a smaller flash hole. I did the 3/64th bit to them. Had a slight difference with small hole lower SD with wlr.
I think also when you have a smaller flash hole it doesn't create as much pressure in the primer when you are nearer max charges.
Once again great video and my 2 cents worth.
LOAD UP SOME BERGER CLASSICS OR VLD WITH THIS SETUP PLEASE!
PS: I’ve been really missing out on this channel. Best reloading channel ive found, oh well, back to binge watching!
Why? You can load them yourself.
Double base powders usually require a hotter or a primer with a longer burn. due to the facts the double base powder graduals are coated with graphite's.
I always heard that ball powders were used for military ammo because it fed easier through hi-speed reloading machines. It was considered safe (slight overloads burned in the barrel or blew out the muzzle), but it was dirty. Any smaller extruded (like 4227) that nearly filled the case gave me good results.
Hell yes another 308 video
I agree .308 videos are fun. My wife is shooting a T/C Compass in .308 lately. She is working up to 1000 yards. Last month she reached out 610 yards on 12" steel targets. Fun stuff!
mutantmutton yes Sir I’m having so much fun with my rig and this cartridge. I’m extremely new to reloading so it extremely cool that Johnny is doing this. And I can follow along.
To be honest, I've never done much shooting with 'small flashhole' brass in .308. I tried some out when I first found some of the the Lapua small hole brass, but never saw any real gains over the standard Federal Match brass I've used forever. I tried some of the S&B primers but found they weren't consistent enough for my tastes with ball powders. Most of my manuals recommend magnum primers with ball powders, but I've had good luck with CCI Bench Rest primers. I've been shooting 45.6 grains of Varget with that primer under a 168 SMK and getting right around 2700 fps out of a 20" LR-10 with no signs of excessive pressure at 80°F ambient. Groups are sub-MOA with SD's hovering around 12-14 depending on the temps on any given day. Your millage, of course, may vary.
Great video. I'm looking forward to more.
Love seeing tests like this. Best reloading content on the web!
Actually, I think the S&B primers are harder, therefore you have to have a really hard firing pin strike for it to work properly.
I agree in ar testing 556 I can concur they are harder.
Yeah, CCI primers are definitely not "hot" by any stretch of the imagination. W-W, R-P, and Fed are all hotter in comparable primer types than CCI. They are highly reliable and ignite really really long as you hit them with a strong enough strike.
S&b factory 300 blk ammo. Can confirm harder primers than cci. Had to change the trigger springs to achieve ignition
Not surprised Sellier & Bellot primes we not quality components. Bought 500 rounds of their .22 long rifle bullets and over 200 would not cycle my Ruger Mark IV. The only ammo that would not cycle.
Well done. Liked and subscribed.
Can you do a chronograph video? So shoot 308 with the Lab radar, shooting chrony and magnetospeed all at the same time.
I think something needs to be said about the development of the Lapua 308 case with small primer pocket and small flash whole. That brass is labeled as "Palma" , the Palma event is fired at countries that speak English originally using the Nations Military cartridge in this case it's 7.62 NATO. the requirements are the competition is at 800-900-1000 meters/yards. Through a bolt action rifle which is supplied by the host country. The hosting country's also supplies the ammunition that each competitor needs, for the weeks long event. Every host country since the 1990's has been using the Lapua case with standard primer pockets. But switched to the small primer pocket with small flash hole, some time more recently. When Australia hosted the event they loaded the ammo with Varget powder, and when the USA hosted , the Sierra 155 grain Plama Match King bullets became standard. The small flash hole is to reduce the back pressure which blows out primer pockets in small cartridges as used in Bench Rest shooting. Way back when the Berdan primed cartridge case that had 2 small flash holes rather the one large one was for the same reason, reduce back pressure that can cause a flame to enter the action and into the face of the shooter.
The old school solution to a half filled brass case was to pack kapok (dryer lint works) atop the powder charge to keep the powder up against the flash hole..
Drop the IMR 4895 .5 gr. Should be a match to the two other groups. Me I would use the CCI 200s and new brass and I bet the group are going to be really good and FPS will be very good. My self I wouldn't even mess with the small primer holes in the .308 but that is just me. Keep the videos coming. I love the stuff. I've been reloading with my dad at the age of 11. Now at almost 62 I still love to reload. Rifle, Shotgun and pistol. Great work.
you are on a roll. i would bet if you reduced thee load of the 4895 large primer to match the fps of the small primers the group size would match. i look forward to part two.
johnny were are you now theses vids are a reloaders witness to fun
Id love to see this sequel.
Just when your brain was on verge of exploding but you were holding on.... it now just exploded!!!
I just went through this decision in 308 brass. Ended up going with large primer Lapua this time just because I am setting on a lot of 210m and because my decapping pins are all standard size. After I use up most of my 210m’s I’m going to be switching to SRP brass in 308, 6.5 snd 6 creedmoor in hopes of longer primer pocket life.
My experience with the 308 Palma brass is that it cut my SD virtually in half.
As usual great video. I do have a question. What do you think would happen if you reshot the loads that gave you all the hang fires with a magnum primer?
Great vid series! You should add the recent 308 vids to the AR10 playlist.
Ol target shooters know that ball powders can be hard to light with some primers. W748 and H335 are the worst. Suggest that the test is re run with Federal or CCI matchprimers and Varget.. the only ball powder I run these days is CFE Black in a 17 Hornet.
I do not remember the channel, but it deals with long range accuracy. That channel mentioned that he had found better accuracy with small primer brass. He mentioned Starline now sells both large and small primer and he was going to stay with the small primer. So, you are the second person I have heard that Sally's primers are more accurate.
H335 is my go to powder for .223 and the only powder that has made squibs until the charge weights get near max.
I can tell you that s&b sr primers are hotter than WW sr primers, at least according to a chronograph!
Before I pass the 2min mark. 358 Win users love small primer Lapua brass. Ditto for many 7.62x39/Grendel wildcatters, especially if going "larger diameter". The argument is almost always "you get about 100fps for free". About to watch the rest of the video, curious if the conclusions will bare this out.
Post video : interesting, now I will have to do some 358 testing with large and small Lapua brass
Where have you been Johnny? We need new videos!!
Savage F/TR Palma rifle., 1/13 twist, 30 inch barrel. Lapua palma brass. CCI Bench Rest primers (br4), 43.1 gr Varget, 155 gr. Sierra Palma bullets. Use crappy primers get crappy results. Only one "no bang" so far and I think it was a plugged flash hole or a bad primer. Leaning toward the plugged flash hole. (walnut)
S&B seems capable of some okay groups, I would feel guilty taking them off the inventory list just for that reason; certainly never waste powder either (I was like "Johnny don't fire all of them! 5 hang-fires'll do") really I would ask Obi wan and he'd say patience. Then next time you go on in to the store and just see which isn't in stock ;) decide later and maybe you won't have to. I would focus on some more optimal primer situation with 4895 and investigate the standard deviations in flash hole size amongst different sm primers
I think you need to run the small flash hole vs large flash holes with a hot primer like the CCI450s or the WSRs.
Your lucky you didn't get detonation. It would blow that rifle sky high. Thank you for your work on this subject.
I read an article by a competitive prone shooter who's 300 yard load was a moly coated 168 SMK, 47.0 grains of 4895( I think H, but it may have been IMR) in Lake City or Lapua brass, and PMC/Russian large rifle primers. In 30-06! Think you have some powder shaking in 308? Of course this was a bolt gun, and he didn't discuss hang fires, he did say that before loading it into the rifle, he would tip it bullet up to make sure of ( or make him feel more confident in) a complete powder burn. Now I realize in an Ar platform, to test this, you would need to point the whole rifle at the sky before every shot, which is umm... silly or a more englishy word. Just thought I'd give you another variable, just in case. Your videos are great. CWF
Love your channel , always good tests , save me money you do the testing for me lol .....
Hey JRB where you at, are you ok? Worried bout you man, it has been a while.
How about 6.5 Grendel? I’m using H335 because it’s the most available powder and I have both small and large primer cases.
I need to ask.. What is advantage of using small primer in lieu of typical large primer for 308win?
Hi Johnny. The PRS crowd has produced some interesting data for large vs. small primers using H4350 in large doses. Generally, accuracy was too close to call one better than the other, but the small primer did have an overall lower MV. I even have read an article in Precision Shooter with similar findings. Curious though, why not use IMR 4064 and better quality primers than going with a known poor combination of a spherical powder and crappy primers? Keep up the good work. 🛩 Martin.
Hahaha.. forget the drill bit...an overzealous pocket hole reaming, will (accidentally) yield the same results.It is very easy to do on those powered Hornady case prep tools.About 1/2 way through a batch, I noticed the flash home size difference.I didn't want to trash those new cases, so I decided to work my loads to this brass case modification.Also, for quality control and a desire to keep things simple, I did not want to worry about keeping track of two different cases.I never did try any loads with the smaller holes.Now I am curious to see how much this affects my groups?
Maybe not enough flame on those S&Bs?
Rem 7.5s would probably alleviate the issue.
Try the ball powder with small primers and holes with magnum primers....
You suck Johnny, You do do your best to do a crap group with 10 shots and you kick my ass with my best handload 5 shot group haha
Keep up the awesome work mate
Cheers from down under
It's the toilet bowl vortex debate all over again, in your hemisphere the rifling needs to turn to the left, up here in the states we get away with right hand twist
I had some old soviet 7.62 tokarev ammo that had some nice half second hang fires.
I use 47 grains of BLC -2 length is 2.865 speed is 2675. That's the one I run out to the rifling. And groups great under a dime at 100yds
And they have a large primer and use Winchester primers
How about magnum primers do they give you a little extra boost of power even in loads that are the same charge
Small primer brass is marginally better shows up in the coarse of a shooting season. But it was more consistent. Consistent often leads to accuracy. New brass is probably more accurate, also what is the H20 capacity of Palma vs Regular 308 brass.
Think you really covered it. Shoot stick not ball for small primer and watch the cold weather....
I shoot h335 in small primer and have zero issues in my auto
Been shooting srp laupa brass in 6.5cm. Srp brass in this and 308 offers lower ignition energy and in both cals this results in about 100fps less for a given charge because of lower energy of ignition. In cold and sometimes warm weather this can mean hang fires. The trade off is longer case life and better sd/es.
Murom kvb223magnum primers and cci 450 both work well.
In 6.5cm a 139 scenar and rs62 powder using these primers resulted in low zeros groups averaging in liw 0.2s. I was averaging 0.25" groups with a best Of 0.18. Lapua brought out smaller primer brass to lower sds as it worked well in 6.5x47 for bench rest shooters and extends brass life for hot loads.
You cannot compare sd or groups on the same charge though so your conclusions need to be based on potential accuracy based on best nodes and loads for both. Try about 42.5 to max 43gr h4350 in srp lapua brass for 6.5cm using the 139gr scenar. That should give superb results. Its equivalent to 44grs62 for the same combo using cci450.
Personally I believe you need to pick a different primer for you small rifle primer. I have had some good groups using S&B primers but I have also had the hang fires. Never experienced the hang fires with other small rifle primers. Personally I feel it is due to the design of the S&B myself. It seems to have a sharper shoulder which to me creates a flatter surface for the firing pin to strike. All other small rifle primers seem to have a slight dome shape compared to the S&B.
My Remington 5 1/2 primers for my 357 in two seperate 1000 primer boxes have been having a no ignition problem 2-5X per 100. Gave up on them.
So I’m still in the research part of reloading I just got a sonic cleaner to clean my brass. I’m still figuring out what I want to do!for a reloading room/ bench I was thinking of the spare bedroom, however it’s carpeted, is this a static risk that could ignite the powder? I know it’s not like black powder but was still something I wanted to get figured out first. Wife would be pissed if I blew the room up.
What I've learned, stick with the large magnum primers that I've always used
This channel is like Thing and his twin from the Adams family started a reloading TH-cam channel.
I just sent my strike eagle 4-24 back for warranty repair for that same issue. The parallax knob came loose from the scope tube.
My hang fires has always been a factor of not properly crimping.
I get hang fires on 6 creedmoor N550 42gr and lapua brass small rifle primers used CCI 450
CCI primers are nickel plated and the hardest to set off. I cant get any of them to go off in BLR 308. Federals seam to be the softest and 80% go off.
Small primers are used to give a tiny bit more accuracy than large primers. Not noticeable to average shooter, but in competition the tiny amount can be win or lose
Small primer does a slight less disturbing of the bullet till the powder starts to burn is the theory
I have two 6.5 Creedmoors. I use Lapua brass with CCI 450 magnum primers. I'm on my second barrel on both rifles and I have never had a hang fire. (H4350 and RL-17) You should test them in the small primer/small flash hole test.
Also, I have read that the yellowing of powder is from soap residue (not rinsing enough) from wet washing (tumbling or ultrasonic) cleaning. I'm not sure if that is true or not. Maybe one of your viewers has some input on that.
And now for something completely different. What is the length a T/C Compass barrel is full diameter ahead of the action/tenon threads? It would be interesting to rechamber it to a 6.5/30 BR.
Thanks
On those cases that had hang fires was the primer seated completely with the 3 anvil feet at the primer pocket bottom, or did the firing pin push the primer to the fully seated position after it fired?
Is it an issue with the age of the primers? Maybe humidity got to it? Great video.
I like your thinking
Have you ever done a accuracy test suppressor VS no suppressor? Same loads on both.
does a softer primer strike influence the primer ignition capability? I would run the same test with the original trigger group to see the results on the SB PRIMER....IMHO. Nice video once again.
Hoping you would compare these
I care more about primers. Fed GMM or BR2 only
John Senuta I use fed GMM on my 30-30... overkill? Maybe
The better accuracy with the small primers in the first series might not be primer related but speed related. Maybe the 2630 fps is the sweet spot.