Upgrading My OLD Brown & Sharp Mill with 20th Century Technology
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.พ. 2024
- HERSCH Tool Merch is now available!
Check out the store, and save 15% for the first 2 weeks it's open! (sale starts today 2/23/24 and runs to 3/8/24)
STORE!: 1555300.myspreadshop.com/
Support My Work on Patreon: / herschtoolroom
For this week's project I will be performing one of the final upgrades that I've been wanting to do to my Brown & Sharpe No2 Horizontal Milling Machine.
Anyone who's used a milling machine with and without a DRO will know just how much a game changer it is to have one installed on a mill.
For that reason, installing a DRO on this machine is a top priority for me and one of the final steps toward making this a "daily driver" machine.
However, because this mill was designed long before DRO's were even a consideration, getting one installed is a tad bit easier said than done.
Join me, as I drag this old machine kicking and screaming into the 20th century!
My Lathe: MSC / Prince 9517350 - 13x40 Manual Metal Lathe
My Milling Machine: Bridgeport Variable Speed Series 1 "J Head"
My other Milling Machine: Brown & Sharpe No. 2 Plain "light type" Universal Milling Machine
/ @hersch_tool
I may add a DRO to my B & S Bmill that has the same knee. Ha Ha, the old machines and the way the castings are on these old machines makes it a challenge. I have just spent hours fabricating a simple collet lever mount for an old lathe thinking when will this end. Like you mentioned the power feeds with rapids already built in. I found my B&S mill to be unusually accurate without a DRO so far, Great video!
Hi Don, thanks for checking out my video! And yeah, these old machines are beautiful, but not many straight lines in the castings lol. And yeah these old B&S machines a super accurate, way more accurate than I am, and the machine is probably more accurate than the cheap import DRO lol. But the DRO is just so convenient, I got used to having one on my bridgeport and it made me lazy... haha
yeah, the biggest bitch about olden beauties is the curvaceous shape of those gorgeous castings... However, it`s kind of a good thing, as it serves as a deterrent for imbeciles from just attaching random crap onto those machines... My Schau22 mill is from 70`s and is as square as they come, literally just right angles and flat surfaces... Thankfully, she was a school backup machine, so she was unmolested, however, i`ve seen a lot of such flat geometry machines being full of random holes for brackets and all the other miscellaneous junk that brutes slapped onto them just because they were too lazy to weld up a nice cabinet, a stand or a wall mounted storage to contend with accessories and tooling or similar... But the DRO`s really can be a pain in the ass with these older machines... Not just the lack of flat surfaces, but the general geometry of the machine castings often has lumps and what not where you need them the least... My Schaerer lathe has a round lump on the side of the cross-slide that supports the compound`s rotary base, and on the other side where all is flat, there is a reinforcement block, which while flat - really gives me the finger by forcing me to somehow work around it when i`ll be slapping a dro onto the Schaerer...
I guess the best way of contending with such issues, if the castings allow for it - is converting the machine to ballscrew actuation and using rotary encoders as a DRO, given that they can translate the rotary motion of the ballscrew into deadnuts accurate positioning, even better, if such a solution is possible, the rotary encoders are oft absolute, so the system is always aware of the machine axis positions, regardless of any nonsense... The cost of the solutions is not comparable, as the encoders while comparable, require the ground 0 backlash ballscrews, which kick the price up by thousands of bucks in a heartbeat...
All the best and kindest regards, both to Don and Hersch!
Steuss
@@camillosteuss yeah I try to use existing holes whenever I can to avoid adding any unnecessary additional holes
Don't forget to apply the arbitrary 25.4 multiplication factor! :D
good work, I only just got my first manual machine in the last month or so and I will definitely be getting scales and a DRO at some point soon!
yeah a dro is such a huge upgrade for a mill, once you get used to it, it's hard to go back. my first manual machine didn't have one either, i can't even imagine how i dealt with that now lol. And thank you very much!
Excellent job. The hard work pays off.
Thanks very much, and yeah it's definitely worth it once it's all said and done.
I'm currently in the process of setting up my bench mill's DRO again. When I first put it on, I sort of half-assed it, so the scales are all cattywompus so it's not very accurate. Definitely better to get it right the first time installing it instead of rushing it and having to go through the pain of redoing it all.
Yeah, it's one of those things that's a bit of a PITA, so might as well take a little extra time so that it's only a PITA once... lol
I have toauto on my lathe. 3 axis. After a year in service I am very happy with it. x & z on carriage and cross. y on the tailstock. The tailstock is a game changer.
Yeah I've thought about putting one on the tailstock. Seems like it would be super useful. Mine is "ok". My carriage scale reads nice and accurate, but my cross is "unpredictable". Sometimes, it's dead on, and then other times it can be off by 1 or 2 thou over a half inch or so, but then go another hundred thou and it's back to dead on again. I haven't spent too much time troubleshooting it.
@@hersch_tool The cross slide unpredictability issues sound like uneven leadscrew wear... The nut would just offer larger backlash were it worn down, but this is easily diagnosed, just move the slide into a few positions between the extremes of the travel and check for backlash, if it oscillates, there`s your problem... Of course, the nonius scales could be the cause aswell, if they are not dead on, making certain division markings more precisely in line with what should be the readout, while the others could be a bit off, either to the left or the right, that however should be somewhat visible to the eye, despite being much harder to measure and check without optical equipment...
@@camillosteuss I'm checking against an indicator, so .100" is .100" regardless of any wear. I think it's must likely just a cheap DRO. And for the price, it's close enough lol
@@hersch_tool hmmm, weird, is it a glass scale? Because glass scales should never read wrong, well, temp. elongation and all that notwithstanding... Also, is it possible that your gib is slightly looser than needed? Lateral squirming of the cross could cause some flexing in the scale housing(alu ``box``) and shifting it in relation to the read head...
The only real issue that a cheap dro should suffer from is either fucky electronics or just inaccurate scales that appear accurate yet are not, as the read head will read the scale and say that all is well, but when you put a micron dial on it, the scale obviously lies... But again, that shit should be constant and undetectable on the screen, so i`m more inclined to think that there is something fucky with the mechanical parts, be it the slide itself or something else...
I mean, if you are sure, proceed accordingly, i`m just offering a checklist if you aren`t sure :P
Cool video. I have an old b&s mill like yours but do not have the vertical head adapter. I am planning on trying to retrofit one of those high speed CNC-type spindles to it. Dro is on the list also. Wish me luck .
Thanks very much! And good luck lol. Your can definitely do it though. Are you thinking that you'll mount it on the over arms? Seems like it might be a good way to do it. Thanks for watching btw!
@@hersch_tool yep exactly , thinking of a simple rigid mount to the overarms. Would be no quill but think about how much reach I could have.
@@richardhutchinson4016 my stock vertical head doesn’t have a quill either, will be a learning curve for me learning to drill with the knee I think
Ah, my trick to no breaking taps is to use the largest tap that i can utilize for a given project... If M4 is okay, but i can fit an M12, M12 it is... I don`t mind breaking taps, it`s called getting a consolation reward of a high grade cobalted hss chunk that can be ground into custom cutters, but i don`t like leaving chunks of taps in places where i want to leave a screw in, that just grinds my gears...
Also, this mill is such a project piece... I could not help myself from stripping her bare, hand planing the surfaces with sanding blocks and giving her a proper automotive finish... It would require a total dismantling of every bit, but the effect would be pornographic... High gloss clear coat over say graublau paint with mirror smooth finish would look spectacular... Damn, those are some stunning castings... But i`m aware that that is a major undertaking and one best left for us hardcore fanatic-lunatics... Also, that is literally just an aesthetics oriented undertaking, one which is generally frowned upon when it comes to machines, but what can i say, as a madman, wasting hundreds of hours is a hobby, even a passion, so try and stop me...
All the best and kind regards!
Steuss
Nice upgrade.
it's definitely gonna be nice having a dro on this beautiful machine.
On the Z axis, why not flip the angle around and run the brakcets around the back side of the scale like you did on Y? The angle would protect the scale, and the dust covers would not be exposed directly to hot chips.
Honest answer? Because that was my last bracket and I didn't have the time or energy to fabricate an entirely new bracket system for that axis. I don't believe it will be a serious issue either. And I also have aluminum dust shields for all the scales that I can install if it does prove to be a problem. I did consider it though, but very briefly lol. Thanks for watching!
Good job!
thanks!
Who else was yelling “put the scale on the nice flat table edge!” when he was mounting the Y?
What table edge are you talking about?
@@hersch_tool Probably called the saddle for Y? Parallel to the ways but ventricle, just under the X. Looked like the scale would fit there perfectly (and move with Y), while the reader would be stationary.
Phew!
Lol that's what I said!
Just wondering did you make any video footage of that homemade parting off tool holder you made for your Aloris toolpost?
No, that was one of the first things I ever made so it was before I started doing videos. But it's worked out well for me, so maybe I can work up a set of drawings and do a video on it soon. I'll work on that. Thanks for the great idea!
@@hersch_tool I also think it would make for an interesting build video. I have one of the Aloris wedge locking type of part off holders and it is useless. I have been planning on making a new holder from scratch with better blade clamping like yours. Look forward to a video build👍
@@howardosborne8647 Yeah those wedge type are the worst. Stay tuned!
So I’m wondering why you didn’t utilize the wipe covers as your mounting point as there’s really nothing important there as far as I can tell (my #2 light type is currently pulled apart)
The wipe covers? Not sure what you're referring to
@@hersch_tool so nearly all bigger machines produced post I wanna say 1920s (grinders being an exception due to abrasives and movements) usually have a leather/rubber/plastic ways wipe to keep chips from galling/scratching the ways. Below where you mounted your X DRO scale (an unused flange boss) was that cover with 3 large flathead countersink screws that you could have drilled and tapped into the metal behind it or made a new wipe cover without worrying about the oil reservoir as that’s where the casting needed to be made thicker for machining the ways.
For your lathe and your mill is suggest looking at any exposed ways and finding those wipes as you should probably make replacements as they generally go bad after a decade or so depending on conditions.
I’d also suggest checking out vintage machinery for the PDF of the brown and sharpe no 2 light type plain mill (as I believe you have the 1940-1945 model as in the manual)
@@shadowcard6923 yes, I know "what" way wipers are, but this machine doesn't have wipers, and so doesn't have wipers covers either, never did. And I didn't want to drill into that surface because it's too far down/away from the scale, and too close to the ways to reach without having to drill in at an extreme angle. I also have the printed copy of the manual and parts list. They're on eBay, I like to have printed books, I'm old fashioned that way. 😂 And that little boss worked well enough anyway
@@hersch_tool that’s weird, maybe it was an add on or something as mine has them and mine is (unfortunately) the years prior (38-39 IIRC)
I also sometimes forget that I did go through the effort of pulling about 200lbs of tanks and started pulling gears and such to take off the table, saddle and knee where I’d have an easy time drilling that. Though I do believe that the steel slides will unhook fairly easily allowing for access but I forget.
I do also wish I had a real copy of my manual, I just printed out the PDF for the newer machines to maybe have some extra help deciphering the mechanical marvel that is that machine. I will say brown and sharpe stuff seems to have some rather unintuitive but clever mechanisms in comparison to like Cincinnati/hardinge/monarch/south bend
@@shadowcard6923 yeah this particular model never had them for some reason. And I agree, B&S machines are kind of like "mechanical art" lol. Beautiful, but sometimes a bit "abstract"... 😅 And check out eBay man, I think I paid around 40 bucks for the original printed manual. Worth every penny. Honestly not much in terms of a "manual" but has the full parts break down for every assembly, even for the dividing heads. I just can't do PDFs, I grew up reading books, not screens, know what I mean
👍👍😎👍👍
Thanks very much!
You already painted it??
Weeeeelllllll, if by "painted it" you mean that I hastily slapped on a coat of paint in the most half-a$$ed way possible? then yeah, I "painted" it... LOL
Instead of rusty / rust-prone iron angles, I would have used suitable aluminum angles / aluminum profiles.
I had angle iron, so I used angle iron. If I really wanted to I could have cleaned them up and painted them, might do that later, but wasn't really worried about it
@@hersch_tool
I would have done that first but I accept and respect your decision - function over aesthetics.
@@friedrichkeul9791 yeah I just wanted to get it working. Plus I'm always on a time crunch for the video, so "extras" often get cut out
Since I am anal, I would fix the Y axis also, does it work, yes but if I don't fix it now I'm guessing that I never would. Out of sight out of mind. Otherwise, Great job on all of the rest of it. It is great the way that you explain everything that you do and in a way that I think most of us can understand.
Lol yeah I'm right there with you. Thinking I might just knock it out and fix it up this weekend. I've realized that all I take need to do is turn those 2 holes on the back end into slots so that I can adjust the bracket up and down. Everything else is pretty ok. That's the sort of silly mistakes I make or miss when I'm just too deep in and getting tunnel vision. And thank you btw, I really appreciate the positive feedback. 🙂
I thought to myself, "he's going to break a tap using a power drill".... then you snapped one 😬
Why don't you slot the holes on the first piece of angle so that you can do away with the stack of washers?
Lol ironically enough, I broke a bottom tap using the hand tap wrench... I was following it up with the bottom tap because the holes were pretty shallow and the handle of the tap wrench bumped the surface right below the hole which knocked it to the side ever so slightly and all I heard was a horrible little "click"... I still have PTSD... And yeah, funny you mention that. I responded in an earlier comment that I am going to go back and do just that. But when you're knee deep in a task sometimes your get tunnel vision and overlook the obvious. Also I'm an idiot, so I am constantly having to contend with that as well... 😭
@@hersch_tool I think we all get tunnel vision at times.
We have the benefit of sitting and watching without having to do any of the thinking.
It's all a learning process.
Good work.
Not sure of your location but we have Tractor Supply. They sell hardware by the pound instead of by the piece. Lowe's hardware aisle is a rip off. Money saving tip of the day!
Yeah that's a great tip. Lowes is indeed a huge ripoff for HW. I didn't even realize that tractor supply sold HW by the pound. I'll definitely be making a trip this weekend in fact. Thanks!
23:50 - oh, bummer.
23:52 - oh look, job done! ;)
(Since metric is superior[0]... just take this as an excuse to start your switch! ;) )
[0] Yes, that's just an opinion. But also, it's a fact that inches/feet/yards are defined in terms of metric, so... ya know. We're all in metric anyway, whether we know it or not.
Lol 😂 oh that's a good one. You're funny.
@@hersch_tool OK, fine, keep your .9144 meter sticks. ;) (and 25.4mm markings on them, etc.) 😂😉
@@DavidLindes lol I WILL! Tyvm! 😂 Funny side note, my wife is from Siberia and she uses metric so sometimes I have to convert for her when she's reading instructions or a description of something online and they say something like "16" long" she's all, "wtf is that supposed to mean?" Lol
@@hersch_tool So you've got _two_ good reasons to switch! 😉 Fair enough, though, fair enough. (p.s. in case it's still relevant, you can tell her that's a little over 400mm. :D)
You could have saved your self alot of work by useing rotary encoders instead of linear.