STOP Being Scared of Downhill Corners
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- On a motorcycle, downhill corners are a lot harder. So what can we do to turn a steep, decreasing radius, blind, wet, downhill corners from somethings scary into something fun?
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#motorcyclesafety #downhill #trailbraking
I love your videos. I also love Nick Ienatsch and his teachings. But I simply can’t understand your dogmatic insistence that you should NEVER OVERLAP THROTTLE AND BRAKE!!!! THE WORLD WILL END IF THERE IS A MILLISECOND OF OVERLAP!!! I’m sorry but imo this is just inappropriate and frankly wrong. There are plenty of outstanding riders who use the technique very well-it smooths the transition between brake and throttle and keeps the suspension stable. Lee Parks and Freddy Spenser advocate the technique. I’ll bet YOU have overlapped brake throttle and didn’t even realize you did it. I’m not talking about grabbing brake while still at significant throttle. It’s a very subtle, gradual transition that may last a fraction of a second. It’s very unlike you to be so dogmatic (although I do love your dog, Chase!). I understand Nick can be dogmatic-I get it-he’s awesome and I guess has earned the right to act like the final word in riding. But to say that there should NEVER be overlap sounds an awful lot like the dogma “never use your brakes in a turn”. Be very careful using the word NEVER. You’ll likely be wrong. I love your videos and please take this in the most positive light-from a very experienced rider who learns every time out and from every source he can. I hope this sparks positive debate and not negative flame throwers. I’m just relating what I feel to be the truth. Thanks.
So I totally understand where you are coming from, but here's some context for you. This is what Nick said about this since he was the lead instructor at the Freddie Spencer High Performance Riding School from its inception to its close: “Freddie was misquoted on this technique and we spoke about it at length. His technique was overlapping throttle and rear brake on the peaky three-cylinder two-stroke 500, as a pre-electronic traction control. He spoke about it at schools but it was printed in a book incorrectly.
"In terms of overlapping front brake and throttle, Freddie laughed and talked about 'almost' overlapping them…going from brake to throttle, and throttle to brake, in minimum time…and then he made a point of how important 'almost' is in our two-wheeled world. I hope this explains the misunderstanding that is out there". -Nick Ienatsch
Every single professional racer I've spoken with says to never do it. Sylvan Guintoli, on his TH-cam channel, says never to do it. And I can tell you, the few times I've accidentially done it at speed on the track; it's not a good thing. With the rear tire pushing the front you end up with an unbalanced bike that doesn't want to turn and doesn't want to slow down. This causes a lot of riders to run off the track. If a technique doesn't work at speed or when grip is down, I'm going to advocate against it, especially since, in this case, that technique was based on a misunderstanding.
@@CanyonChasers I'm glad that you take the time to elaborate because it/I caused it to happen last weekend and it was, well disconcerting. For a brief second it was a bronco bike.
@@Ramon51650 good debate, what can I add for what it’s worth… one thing is that being aware of these things for me is half the battle, which is why I feel it is important as well as enjoyable to watch and enjoy CChsrs and others. What do I find works for me, I find dragging or dabbing the rear brake whilst at low ish throttle openings give useful fine tuning, sometimes releasing the throttle for the same effect can be jerky and upset the balance. I don’t think I ever apply front on throttle, that doesn’t sound or feel right to me.
At the end of the day it's your bike, feel free to ride however you want... just don't teach others.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply and pinning the comment. Here’s the thing: Both you and Nick don’t exclusively teach for the track. In fact, you both do a wonderful job emphasizing how techniques like trail braking make street riding safer. Your explanation of avoiding overlapping brake and throttle really mostly pertains to track riding. And there’s a HUGE difference between riding an R1 on a track you’ve ridden around 100’s, even 1000’s of times, and mountain twisties you’ve never been on. Yes, Profesional racers don’t overlap brake and throttle-and that’s because 1)they are better than I am, and 2)they know to the inch where the apex is, where to ease off brake and roll on throttle. On mountain twisties you’ve never ridden, you don’t have that luxury. Trees and mountainsides often block your view into the turn. The transition from brake to throttle can be very prolonged because the turn information often takes time to discern. A subtle, overlap between brake and throttle in that situation is a fantastic way to smooth out the transition while keeping the suspension beautifully stable. Just my $0.02. More Chase the Motodog cameos please!
Thank you for your continued leadership in busting the myths around trailbraking. I can relate to going around a hairpin turn that without trailbraking I would have been been over the edge of a cliff, even from a dead stop in 1st gear. It's the ultimate example of why trailbraking is an important skill.
When I was 15, my riding coach brought me up to the top of Stoney Mountain... It's between Elizabethton and Shady Valley in East Tennessee (in case you'd like to Street-view it if that's possible)... He unloaded two motorcycle frames from his truck, and let his wife drive the truck back down... We took those old bike frames down Stoney with NOTHING... There was no battery, motor, clutch... JUST front and rear brakes... and a LOT of dubious twisty roads...
That first time, it was terrifying... I ditched it a couple times... After about 5 or 6 runs, I was used to what it took, precisely to work with the brakes, both front and rear, with confidence and precision... AND I've developed the habit of hitting a parking lot a few extra times if I get new boots... Even the same kind I had before, just going from "broke in" to "new" in condition is enough to want to renew your sense of the rear brake and shift lever. ;o)
100% rule applies when trail braking. In bad situations don’t be afraid to stand it up straight and get on the brakes hard. (To condition including traffic, of course).
If you never use the front brake with the throttle, how do you do sweet burnouts... ok I'll just go back to the dark corner I came from now
"No officer, I'm ...uh... wear testing the last 5% for uh... my thesis! Yeah, that's it."
Sick burnouts are the exception! No argument from me.
Nice video, it's a lesson that needs sharing. I was on a group ride on a mountain road in Western NC, and the gentleman in front of me had been to several California Superbike Schools. On a steep downhill turn he applied the brake on the straight, came off the brake for the turn, and headed straight for the grille of an oncoming Mustang (who fortunately saw him coming and stopped). He was pretty shaken and at lunch I told him he needed to learn how to trail brake, but it was very hard for him to undo those lessons that had been drilled into him.
This is the exact scenario that I faced years ago that made me rethink riding. Fortunately I had a buddy who worked for the Freddie Spencer school, and here I am, trying to share that wisdom with the world! Thanks for the comment!
G'day again, Dave. Good vid and explainer. Once again, I'd say to anyone who doesn't get this, go ride an MTB down a steep muddy hill with a tight bend in it. You'll get it straight away... Btw, nice to see someone out doing this on a damp road, with traff coming the other way. You know, the real world. Kudos, dude.
Yes. MTB teaches us so many great things!
my usual technique in a very downhill corner is to start saying, "fuckfuckfuck FUCKFUCKFUCK" until the angel of death goes away
I can relate! I'm happy to report that this works a bit better. 😎
I've subscribed to that method as well!🤣 Thanks to channels like Canyon Chasers I'm getting better at the trailbraking programme. A lot easier on my nerves.😊
I used to have a lot more of those moments, but I started to evolve as a rider. Now I can ride roads that used to scare the crap out of me but I can actually enjoy them. I wish I could go back in time and coach my 20-year-old self with what I know today.
Omg, I just read this and almost shot my coffee out my nose. Luckily I’ve never done this on the street but in downhill mountain biking, several times. A few adding an unexpected streak to the boxers.
I once went on a crazy downhill ride. There was no road, only rubbles. The road was real step. I had to use both brakes plus keep the bike in 1st gear and leave the clutch to slow down the bike. The main thing you have to prevent from happening is not let the bike slide. You are gone for good if the bike slides as there nothing to protect you from 100+m drop. And I did it all in road tyres.
I was trail braking for years before I knew what it was, I kept wondering how to take downhill corners while accelerating!! I developed the habit of riding with two fingers resting on the front leaver and dragging into corners if feeling insecure. I guess I had the correct technique the whole time?
Nice focus on trail braking but keeping weight off the bars while going downhill needs to be mentioned. Not so much an issue for cruisers and a lot of adventure bikes but definitely for bikes that have the rider leaning forward. Learn to support the upper body by squeezing the tank with the knees and free up your hands to focus on controlling brake, clutch, throttle and steering.
Keeping weight off the bars on steep downhills is the key. These are almost exclusively blind corners and frequently tighten on downhill canyons. Additional countersteering to tighten the arc may be necessary. With weight on the bars it’s tuff to do.
The concept and understanding of 100 pts of traction (and thusly, trail braking) made an incredible improvement in my riding. For those of you who don’t know- your tires have 100% traction going straight on a level road. The more you add braking, you’re using up some of those 100 points. Add lean angle, and you’re using more of them. The idea is to progressively decrease braking as you’re adding lean angle, so that the smoothness of the action maintains whatever percentage of your 100 points you’re using remains consistent. You want to add and subtract traction points at a steady rate upon braking, lean, then acceleration.
First let me thank you for a great video. Wish I had had things like this available to learn back in the early 70's. I learned about using the front brake out of need when into a corner way too fast. I knew about squeezing the front brake so there was no fear of using it and I found I could use only a small amount of front brake and change the speed pretty dramatically. I found a few down hill curvy roads that were simply exhilarating when one learned to ride down them pushing it just a bit and "saving" one's self by using good braking procedures. Once you knew where to apply front brake lightly, you found out you could "push" the bike a bit faster. I no longer ride this fast as 74 year old bones and injuries heal a lot slower than young bodies, or it it just self preservation? LOL!!! Please keep up the good work as you are teaching folks techniques that can and do save lives.
Excellent advice on technique. Thank you!
I had the pleasure of reading through this entire thread, and it was handled in such a professional matter that I've learned more from this video than many others. Canyon chasers does an excellent job at presenting material and the fact that champ school chimed in and Peter also kept things very civil with some sincere questions made this quite enlightening. Much hope for the motorcycle community. Kudos to all of you!
Thank you for this comment!! 🙏
I practice trail braking, but I struggle to understand one thing. When riding on the road, many corners are just too long to keep braking until I see the exit. Not to mention those long 180 degrees turns, which you actually use in a few of your videos for illustration, where keeping even the slightest brake pressure and no throttle would just slow you down way too much before you ever see the exit. I mean, I often have to add throttle BEFORE I see the exit, or I will nearly come to a stop. So how do you deal with this? How fixed is the rule of not opening the throttle before you see the exit?
This is my favourite motorcycling channel, I watched all your riding technique videos at least twice. Thanks for sharing all the knowledge, I really appreciate it!
Great question. This is what we mean by "Ride by Direction" So, when we go to the brakes, the radius gets smaller, the bike wants to turn. So we slow into corners until we are happy with our speed in direction. In those long turns, that may be a long time before the apex or when we can see our exit, but who cares, right? We're happy with how things are going. So we can ease off the brake and go to neutral or maintenance throttle, the raduis will stay the same. When we can see our exit and we can take away lean angle, thats when we get to actively accelerate, and the bike will stop turning and the radius will increase.
If, by chance, we're in the middle of the corner and we need to slow again, we're only at neutral throttle, and since we always cover the brakes, as we roll off the throttle we ease back into the brake again. No drama!
We can use these tools to help us put the bike exactly where we want it, and we make decisions based on where the bike is pointed. We're riding the bike based on direction.
I’m getting ready to ride from Indiana to Florida. I was advised to lay off the Brakes and pick a Gear to stay in.
Great tips and thanks for sharing. I am actually more comfortable riding downhill in twisties at a faster pace than going uphill. Yes, I'll use some gentle front brake to slow -- after "unlearning" the never use the front brake in corners stuff. Uphill is a little more challenging in my mind because of concerns of getting on the throttle too quickly and losing the rear grip. FYI, those roads for this video look awesome. What roadways was this shot at?
This is a little hidden road outside of Midway, Utah. And honestly, i feel the same way. I love downhill corners!
@@CanyonChasers Midway is one of my favorite towns. And Heber.
Great video but get rid of the background music, please
I frequently ride a 500 meter mountain in Mallorca, feathering the front brake on every downhill hairpin bend, 27 of them, never had any issues , faster going down than up.
Feathering brakes on a car going downhill would lead to roasted brakes. It's fine on bikes, although the largest cruisers might have a problem.
Downhill turns I don't mind so much, and I do precisely what you describe in the video. The turns that I HATE are the downhill turns that are off camber. Those scare the Hell out of me because it requires a lot more slowing down, and I often end up dragging my peg(s), which introduces a whole different level of uncertainty in the turn.
Yes! This means you are a smart, adaptable rider.
Awesome!! This is the perfect situation to trail brake!
I LOVE these corners now that I know how it works. It's the first and last 5% of brake pressure that does it and these turns are the best place to practice.
I have touched in a bit of rear brake if the radius tightened faster than I was comfortable but I only used a few times as a bailout.
Right?!? It suddenly doesn't matter. Uphill, down, decreasing radius. A little bit of front brake pressure and they are all fun!
@@CanyonChasers Absolutely! These concepts have made my riding fun, 100% of the time!
Trailbraking has made me such a better and SAFER rider. Only needed to go into the opposite lane once to figure out I was doing something wrong(not trailbraking) 😂
Not going to lie, I had a very similar experience. I'm glad we both made it through that mistake unscathed.
@@CanyonChasers Yep, lucky there wasn't a car(actually there was just two seconds later)
Works on downhill sharp curves too
Truly appreciate this video that very clearly is saying to *never* overlap the front brake and throttle.
There is so much misinformation out there (about trail braking) that we need every motorcycle vlog'er pushing the correct technique to overcome the sheer amount of bad information.
The downhill street riding trail-braking discussion presented here is excellent!
Thank you and I totally agree. The signal to noise ratio in our sport it really awful. Too many people teach how they ride and then defend bad practices when they are proven wrong instead of focusing on data-driven, researched best practices that are always going to be evolving.
My promise to you guys is if a new thing comes up thats better and safer, I'm not going to cling to the old thing I used to say, I'll present the better way.
I've got what may be a dumb question, I'm a relatively new rider. By saying never front brake and throttle, do you mean that you should always have the throttle fully closed before you apply the brake, or that you are do open the throttle against the brake?
Thanks
Jonay, that is not a dumb question! It is commonly asked.
Excellent and correct info!
How about using gear selection to control your speed downhill?
It works, but what do you do if you need to slow more? Add more coast? The front brake is far more precise and we have that extra grip.
This is what i do. Need more coast, upshift… if you need more brake then downshift and then use brakes. But the bike will never get away from you.
I will let the engine hold the bike's base speed, but if I'm going into a steep downhill/decreasing radius corner, I'm still going to use some front brake the bring that speed down to exactly where I want it and get the front end pointed.
I'm currently traversing the Colorado Rockies and I absolutely swear by this technique!!!
These basic riding principles for cornering are so important and well explained, thank you! I try to explain this to previous riding buddies, but they just can't accept the fact you use the front brake to manage speed and direction going into any curve...I've given up and ride alone...that way I don't want to witness one of them wrapped around a tree or fly over a cliff.
Its really discouraging, isn't it. That so many people and programs put so much energy into making riders afraid of the most important tool we have. 😢 What really frustrates me is that it's getting riders hurt and killed.
It is disheartening. In the last 4 years, I've taken Lee Parks Total Control Advanced Riding Clinics 3 times (on 3 different motorcycles), I'm currently in the middle of Champ U, spend time in a parking lot AND watch Canyon Chaser Videos! At 62, I feel you can never stop learning about a Sport we are so passionate about.
Excellent video, Steve, as always.
I was riding in the Italian Dolomites this May and if only i would have known this a couple of months earlier, I would have enjoyed the downhill rides so much more!
This is an excellent video all around from the talking points to the videography and examples.
Awesome tips. Can you tell us about the riding gear you used in this video. The Jacket and pants look slick, everything just looks the part on that bike.
It's a ten year old Dainese D-Dry jacket. Still my favorite riding jacket. I wish they still made it. And a pair of Carhartt, double front pants with D3O armor in the knees. www.canyonchasers.net/2018/05/add-d3o-armor-to-double-front-work-pants/
@@CanyonChasers Thank you, I was not aware of your website. Legend.
On downhill I use a combination of front and rear. The bike stays stable the whole turn. Braking rear brake turning left is also very challenging.
Great video. After practicing trail braking for years, downhill tight corners are never an issue, I'm on those brakes until I can see the exit. Uphill blind corners are more challenging because the transition to a smooth throttle is much more crucial.
Yep. Thats an upcoming video topic!!
@@CanyonChasers awesome videos, keep it up 🤙
Started riding recently and after learning trail braking in general I feel like I’m going way too slow compared to how well the bike could prob handle a turn. I feel like I need to really increase speed to get the benifit of trail B.
The best way to work on fixing this is with our eyes! Not only do we need to look further ahead, we also need to scan back at the road in front of us. Look out. Scan Back. And then we work on having faster eyers. This is still the number one thing I say inside my helmet (fast eyes). And then all the other stuff starts getting easier.
Thank you, another fantastic video and presentation. Do you have a video on how to tackle very tight uphill hairpin bends without going wide into oncoming traffic or going too slow and worring about the bike tipping over. Cheers. Thanks again.
We plan on making one on that very topic.
... especially when you bike is italian with a truck-like turning radius!
Seriously, the moon had a tighter turning radius than my old Ducati SuperSport
Have been applying your technique this weekend in the German Eifel region. Feels a lot safer and added more fun to my experience. Thank you for sharing the knowledge and making the effort for creating these pleasant to watch videos!
Good advice, but maybe incomplete: what about gear selection? I find that using a lower gear (usually one lower than I would on level ground), allows me to use engine braking to modulate my speed and spend less time on the brakes. It's equivalent to smooth, consistent, light application of the rear brake, and then use the front brake as you suggest to fine-tune your speed for each corner.
I think the point of the video was front brake use in tricky corners, not every bike has the same degree of engine braking and this advice seems more universal.
Sure, but we want to avoid relying _only_ on engine braking. Because what do we do if we need to slow more? Add more coast? The front brake gives us more precision and more control. Even if we are only using 1% brake pressure, which is just enough for the brake pads to lightly touch the rotor, we're going to have way more options in those steep downhill bits.
To add to CC's comment, one thing I got out of ChampU was how dangerous it can be to rely on engine braking too much. What happens if you enter a corner too fast and you're relying on (mostly) engine braking? Having to downshift mid corner can easily upset the bike, having to add braking can easily turn into a panic brake. And on the other side, what if you're using too much engine braking, you have to either shift up, add throttle, or apply some clutch.
ChampU taught me to be in the correct gear and rely more on mechanical brakes to reduce speed. And then there's also the exit to think about, if you're too low a gear when you start adding throttle you can end up needing to shifting up before you've stood the bike up risking upsetting the balance.
I was very frustrated with my cornering until I took ChampU online, and spoke with the instructors (messaging). When I explained my cornering technique, and how much engine braking I was using they suggested I enter one gear higher and utilize the mechanical brakes more to avoid losing the rear. I went and tried it and my stability into, thru, and out of corners greatly improved and I wasable to get back to the throttle quicker.
Just my 2 cents.
@@Zookeeper101 So this begs the question, what is the correct gear/engine speed? I was taught to keep it in the middle of the rev range: 9K redline, generally use a gear that keeps engine revs around 4-5K. I would be on the high side of that going into a corner, which usually minimizes the need for a downshift in the corner. And at that RPM, most bikes have significant engine braking.
@@tedv82 mid range in the rpms or just under is a good spot, depending on your bike, skill, riding style. Every bike and rider are a little different, so it takes some testing to find that right spot. My bike revs out close to 16k rpm, I'm typically around 5-6k thru corners and can easily start adding throttle while leaned over, and typically I'm standing him back up around 10-11k so I've still got throttle left before I need to shift. I was being pretty aggressive and entering around 9-10k, and pushing close to red line as I brought him up, the up shift right as I stood him up would give me a wiggle, and to add to it there was several times I got a wiggle as I tipped in because the rear would start to lose traction.
The key point in this though, is if you need to adjust speed mid corner your risk is lower if you're managing speed with throttle and brakes, it's much easier to be smooth with less engine braking.
Great video as always! Trail braking changed my way of riding years ago. I've noticed that there are no videos on youtube to explain the most difficult part: evaluation mistakes.
It could happens to slow down too much, or maybe to enter a very long turn, or to approach a turn with multiple radius that require a new acceleration and maybe a new brake.
In those cases i have this approach: nogas+trailbraking, then a little of rearbrake while easing the front one, than no front braking and smooth acceleration while dragging the rear, if another slow down is needed then again nogas+front trailbraking while easing the rear brake.
On street smoothness is the key, and the rear brake can help A LOT in smoothing throttle/brake transitions. What do you think about this?
It's probably an upcoming video, but we ride based on direction. Not sequence, right? Front brake makes the radius of the corner smaller. Maintenance throttle keeps the radius the same. Acceleration makes the radius bigger. Use the one you need for the situation you are in. Smoothness is key, of course. And dragging the rear brake is a great way to smooth things out, as you've discovered.
I agree 100% about the lack of evaluation videos and that being an area I'd like more knowledge. It's the thing that leads me to instinctively want to use both throttle and brake at times. (I've gotten better about it, but yeah..) Maybe this is something that could be demonstrated via examples and videos of real-time brake use? Or even just a detailed explanation with some video. Strategy strategy.
Some of our corners and drop off in the Scottish Highlands are a challenge. Especially going down hill with less than one lane in many cases
Super advice Dave. Super video and ride well 🤓💖🏍️
Thank you!!
Great video as usual. And with regards to your closing statement about not relying on hope, I am reminded of a saying we use in diving (and general outdoor pursuits), "Hope is not a good plan". So yeah, fully agree!
So much wisdom as always, love how you went through and answered every question
Well said. I have just about changed my total ride. I am coming up 60 and had a lot of bad habits. Thanks to your videos I fell safer , calm and enjoy my ride with confidence. Thanks and I hope more riders take your advice. Cheers Roger in Nz.
Right on! Also, we LOVE NZ!! One of our founding members now lives in Omaru. It's been way too long since we've been able to visit. Stupid COVID!
3:49 Burnout bois going wild now 🤣🤣🤣
You are correct. That is the exception. Haha.
My only major crash on 2 wheels was in a steep and closing 90° corner downhill no sight whatsoever. I had my girlfriend with me and I knew this corner, it was (still is) infamous for "causing" hundreds of crashes every year so I went super careful and slow which was the problem, we basically tipped over on the inside of the corner. Luckily because at the very moment we tipped to the inside, a bus came around the corner pretty close to the center, If I had gone wide or we had slipped to the outside the bus could have killed us. However, it did hurt A LOT for weeks and I never attempted to take this corner on 2 wheels ever again... Since that day I do fear downhill corners a lot ... which is stupid and makes it even more dangerous to ride...
Okay, that resolved my ongoing confusion regarding trail braking. It seemed to me while watching tons of trail braking videos, that people were suggesting that you keep the outside 2 fingers on the throttle and the inboard 2 fingers on the brake and use the throttle and the brake simultaneously. This is VERY awkward. Your idea to NEVER overlap not only makes sense, but makes the mechanics of trail braking much easier.
Hi Dave, I made a comment in one of your earlier videos about how effective trail braking is downhill
You replied to say you intended to do this video but had been thwarted owing to Covid
Brilliant video Dave. The technique you describe has made me a much safer, more competent rider, with more confidence
I recommend Canyon Chasers to anybody who will listen. I have learned so much from you
Thank you for your effort and knowledge, I am sure you have saved many lives.
Thank you. I'm a bit sad that it took us so long to get this one done, hopefully it was worth the wait.
Question, hopping that somebody could notch me in the right direction... I have an electric bike with regen (a Zero DSR)... On the scenario of riding down a pretty steep downhill with lots of curves/corners... how would one handle both brakes to avoid overheating neither of them... One time I lost the front brake, thankfully almost at the end of the downhill, and was able to do fine with the rear one... but I'm kind of scared now that that happens again, resulting in an accident or something...
I live in Japan and pretty much jumped into the deep end going down steep curvy roads. This is basically what I’ve started doing intuitively. However, I need to practice when i apply the brake, and not being afraid of the distance to the corner.
Just keep that front brake adequately pressed while turning and you are fine, plus saved 8 minutes watching yet another video.
Thank you for the tips.
You mentioned "Never overlap front brake and throttle".
But before the bike is facing the right direction in the corner, don't you have to open the throttle to maintain the speed while holding the 5% of front brake at the same time?
Nope. We slow until we are happy with speed and direction. If it's a long corner, like the one you describe, we ease off the brake and go the maintenance throttle to keep the radius of the corner steady. When we can see our exit and take away lean angle, then we get to actively accelerate.
This is what we mean by riding by direction. We slow, maintain, or accelerate based on what we want the bike to do throughout the corner.
@@CanyonChasers Thank you so much.👍🏻
I'm pretty sure I overlap front brake and throttle at least a little. Mostly while grabbing downshifts and braking before the corner though.
@@CanyonChasers this comment is why I’ve read every comment on this thread, looking for a solution to the quandary of needing maintenance throttle to make it through the curve, while still trail braking. I think need a taller gear and a little more entry speed, so that trail braking carries me through the turn before maintenance throttle becomes necessary. That transition point is the holy grail.
Thanks for these great vids.
Thanks!
Wow! Thank you!!
Bare none, trail braking has been the most impactful technique to improve my confidence and overall riding. In addition, getting on the track with California Superbike or Yamaha championship riding school, has helped me get more comfortable with speed and leaning the motorcycle. I am at a loss why some schools, seems to be mostly a British thing, still teach doing all your braking prior to the corner and relying on leaning the bike, no brakes, through the corner. Works great if everything works as it should but what are you suppose to do if you find yourself going too fast “in” the corner? Just doesn’t make sense to me given what we now know about cornering.
Trail braking saves lives on downhill corners, especially for canyon or mountain rides where tightening radius curves are common. It's a weird feeling at first to brake while leaned over but it becomes second nature quickly.
Yeah, if a technique doesn't work when speeds are up, or grip is down, I'm not a fan. Just hucking the bike over on the side works great in a parking lot, with lots of grip on a warm sunny day, but less so when it's rainy (like it was the day we shot) or if we're going a lot faster.
If you drag the front brake in the Alps after the first three mountains your brake won't work anymore.
How dare you - I don’t buy cheap brake pads! Great vid as usual - Thanks!
When I was coming down the grapevine. I found it much easier to down shift once and apply front when needed. 👍
Watching this after i crashed downhill, LOL ;/
Just started to learn to ride and this video was very needed. Hope my confidence gets up to corner downhill
What about maintenance throttle while using the brake(trail breaking)
Depends on which brake. Dragging a little rear brake. Sure! Dragging a little front brake. Nope.
@@CanyonChasers thanks just saw another vid saying the same thing. Appreciate all of you trying to help us become better riders.
As per my experience it’s better use more rear break than front steep down hill . With front , due to more weight it can turn
One thing I’m still confused on is whether to engine brake while trail breaking or to pull the clutch in and don’t let it out until the apex
Again, thanks a lot, please make some more kids, we need more people like you for the next generations to come.
Just did some switchbacks on 16 from Medina to Kerrville near the 3 sisters in TX and was my first time attempting these maneuvers and add in the washboard road surface. Wit a car behind me and marked 15 mph corners up and down just sent it near 15 MPH as recommended by a pastor of a motorcycle group. On the way down prepped and used both brakes. Fronts controlled speed into the corner towards the apex and trail braked using the rear mid corner out. Was stupid easy just had to be mindful of brake pressure and keeping speed up for control and down for the conditions and in balance this noob had a wonderful time!
Nice video!
Thank you so much for these videos. I really enjoy how clear and concise you are in your explanations. Your tips are that of a smart experienced rier, that's who I want to follow. You rock!
Thank you!
Bro I clicked this thinking it was a GTA tutorial, shits real lol !
Never a problem for me. 2008 Honda Nighthawk 250cc. Front and rear drum brakes. " Part of the risk of riding". So true!!! 😂. In a sports car one can "left foot brake" while also accelerating with the gas pedal, so as to keep the RPMs up, whilst slowing down. Can this be done on a motorcycle? Can you apply rear brake and also keep RPMs up? I have felt my bike surge forward whilst front braking and using throttle. Great feeling to lunge forward as you come out of a turn. Oh dear, diesel ⛽ fuel. 😬 OOPS.
We can overlap a little bit of rear brake with the throttle, but if you are struggling with smooth front brake/throttle transitions, that can typically be best fixed by adjusting your hand position. Make sure your wrist is flat and try not to squeeze the bar too tightly.
Always flow smoothly, not herky jerky.
I know this is too late to comment
I remember when I was cornering on hill public road. The road surface were smooth. There was a particular corner that got me unaware. Right hairpin downhill with very narrow exit side with deep gutter (in RHD side).
At entry, it was smooth, but when exiting corner... That narrow exit side got me panic. I used front brake, but not so sudden and hard. Thank god, I could survive on that
I didn't use rear brake cuz it's useless.. I change the whole stock rider footstep with underbone style footstep.
My bike is kawasaki w175
Glad you made it through the corner safely! That W175 is a neat bike!
Excellent tutorial, but I was distracted by the pavement porn!!! That asphalt!! It's as a smooth as a.....baby's good intentions. Okay, now I have pavement envy.
They recently repaved it for the Tour of Utah bicycle race. It was pretty burly before that.
Try the Trollroad in Norway? Trollstigen
Crisply articulaed.. To be successful be adaptable to the roads, and use the tools in your toolbox effectively.. Good one Dave!
Coming from technical, fast, downhill and cross country mountain biking I learned the importance of brakes. Definitely no electronic aids there, and speeds downhill off road that would make most motorcyclists nervous. I use those techniques on my motorcycles now, both dirt and tarmac, to keep everything planted and smooth. Downhill is most supremely absosmurfly the realm of Brakes, whatever the surface may be...
YES! I really wish more riders would dive into this! We made a whole video about this subject: th-cam.com/video/yemS81UUQLk/w-d-xo.html
I had too laugh at the "Outdated 1970's" comment. Ive been riding since I was 9 y/o I'm 60 now. I used to race and rarely come off a bike. I'm still alive and riding. In your defence I don't ride like a Bat out of hell these day's . Good vid though. LOL.
I think he's saying techniques, technology, and knowledge have improved and evolved since the '70s but some people (coughCodecough) still teach what they thought they knew in 1978.
Okay, that resolved my ongoing confusion regarding trail braking. It seemed to me while watching tons of trail braking videos, that people were suggesting that you keep the outside 2 fingers on the throttle and the inboard 2 fingers on the brake and use the throttle and the brake simultaneously. This is VERY awkward. Your idea to NEVER overlap not only makes sense, but makes the mechanics of trail braking much easier.
Ya gotta love Utah! I love it living in Vernal, except for the cold winters. Oh, BTW, thanks for the tips! I'm an old dirt bike and dual sport rider, so adjusting to the feel of a cruiser is definitely a bit different, but so much fun though. Hwy 191 is going to be a fun ride once I head out north or south, depends on where I want to go. I bet that Wolf creek is a blast to ride over too.
Thanks for the video!
I overlap a lot throttle and brake a lot, my transitions are smooth. I also take these corners in a lower gear at a much higher rpm and I buzz right through them because I can regulate my speed much easier with only the throttle. Maybe better advice would be to tell people "practice downshifting until you can smoothly down into second or first while doing 30-40, don't be afraid to lean or rev it to 10k"
💯
The only person to address brake pad wear. Thank you!
Thanks, I needed to see this
I'm here in northern Thailand and we have many downhill twisties and hairpins and I noticed I have been using a bit of a combination of front brake and throttle, intuitively, to be able to carry me through the double apex tighter corners in a smooth manner but one in which the rpm's, maintained around 70% and used in bursts of near full throttle, is becoming a more smooth experience. Done on a stock klx230sm, so only 20hp and not much to get in serious trouble, but it does seem to work well, maybe because small displacement?
The result is that engine breaking does most of the work and you get to stay near full power for exit and focus on your vision. It's one of the problems of the small displacement super motos riders club. Life is hard.
I would strongly discourage you from using the throttle and the front brake at the same time. Even on a little bike. There are very few always and nevers in riding, but one of them is "never run throttle and front brake at the same time"
I am a beginner biker and I really love your videos. But sometimes opinion makers have different views on the same topic and it makes beginner's life more difficult. Regarding overlapping throttle and brake - it seems that you teach us going over the cover on the front break plus engine braking (till point where one can see exit), right? But that would require either quite high entry speed, or if speed is a bit conservative - it will reduce it too much. Right?
Also could you please comment this video at 7:25 - regarding throttle and break overlapping th-cam.com/video/mnUckCA-krM/w-d-xo.html
Or. less brake pressure for longer. :). Think of it like this. We slow until we are happy with speed and direction. If we're happy, we can go to neutral throttlle and the bike radius will stay the same, but we want to wait to actively accelerate until the point where we can see our exit and take away lean angle. We don't have to stay on the brakes to the apex, past the apex or anything like that. We slow until we're happy with speed and direction.
As far as Bret's comments. I love Bret and we're looking at working together in the future, but he is wrong about this one thing (it might be the only thing I'm aware of that he's wrong about). The idea was first published after someone misunderstood Freddie Spencer and then published that misunderstanding in their book. Freddie has come out many times and tried to correct this misunderstanding. In fact, we can see in data analytics how overlapping throttle and front brake costs the bikes stability. In my own personal experience when it's happened to me accidentially on the track, even a very small amount, it's apparent because the bike doesn't want to change direction and the bike doesn't want to slow down. It's pretty unnerving. We are, literally, giving the bike conflicting instructions. It might work at slow speeds or when we have a lot of grip, but if it doesn't work when the speeds are up or the grip is down, it's a technique we're not going to invest much time into and certainly not one we'll advocate for.
Sylvan Guintoli also says we should never, never overlap throttle and front brake - Now, overlapping rear brake. Yes, lots of top level riders do this, including Freddie Spencer and Sylvan Guintoli. Here's a video Freddie recently put out trying to dispell the misunderstanding. th-cam.com/video/ezmz_jV65oI/w-d-xo.html
Do overlap front brake and throttle. Helps many times with fine tuning line and balance. Don't listen to strict advice, riding bikes is very complicated.
Overlapping thottle and front brake is so dangerous, that a lot of new motorcycles with fly-by-wire throttles automatically shut the throttle off as soon as the computer senses front brake pressure. The expert riders and engineers who design our motorcycles know it's a bad technique.
With a modern Ducati Monster, it has ABS and very strong engine braking capabilities so when driving in a normal way, like a touring way of driving, there is almost no front breaking needed, when applying the engine brake correctly, which is easier when having a quick shifter.
The problem with relying on engine braking is what do you do if you need to slow more? Add more coast? Try being in a gear or two higher. You'll find the bike smoother and you'll be much more precise and be in more control.
I'm doing all of this on a Ducati Multistrada. Same basic engine with lots of engine braking.
As always great video, excellent explanation of techniques and easy to understand.. only thing now is go and practice more.
By the way which model is your jacket, looks great!
It's an older Dainese D-Dry. Ten years on, it's still one of my all time favorite riding jackets.
Kinda off topic, but you should watch any The Action Lab video. Looks, speech, movement ... They say everyone has a double. That guy is close.
I usually get Andrea Dovisioso or sometimes Eminem.
Thank you again for this excellent content. Have u done any videos providing some tips on gaining confidence in dealing with rainy days, wet roads & wind ? Thank you again I feel much more confident since discovering (and of course subscribing to) your channel.
We have plans to make videos on those topics!
Fabulous help, now looking for a video or someone to give me advice to help me on steep uphill turns that unexpectedly tighten mid turn, or start to level off. On a couple around here I have started to run wide, and closing off the throttle has not been enough. The best I can do so far is to keep the engine revs really high to maximise engine braking, and be very cautious on the entry speed on sharp uphill bends. Otherwise you are running wide and wondering what is worst, suddenly completely shutting off the throttle so you can then use the front brake, apply rear brake or counter steer. Bit late to be thinking about that then.
We've been working towards making this video. So stick around.
I’ve always cruised down Pine Canyon and used my lack of downhill cornering abilities as an excuse to scout the road for my blast back up. Going to apply some of this knowledge next time I’m out there.
I almost died yesterday, i slowed down late on a blindcurve downhill i overshoot, almost got hit by a car and almost fell off a cliff
It's sad that you have to advise people not to worry about break pads... Of course, you should not. Breaks are to be used. Don't worry about it being used.
Seriously! If you think brake pads are expensive, think about how much it costs to use engine cases to slow down.
You are a top rider promoting trail brake and it’s the most important skill in motorcycling .Also ….I like your jacket .Which Dainese model is that?
Thank you. It's an old Dainese D-Dry. I don't think they make it anymore, but it's my all time favorite riding jacket.
Never say never... absolutely overlap front brake with throttle during smoky burnouts
You are not wrong. Smokey,. burnouts it is absolutely required!
I am a happy subscriber and I have learnt a lot. I have a question: what happens with the shifting if breaking through out the corner, the bike slow down enough to loose power and the engine become undershift?
In this case, because we are going downhill, we have gravity to help pull us out of the corner, so we probably don't need to have all that power. But if we are still a gear too high, then we can just downshift as we exit the corner.
last time i was performing a down hill steep corner at less than 25 mph, my back tire slid out ( a little). I kept it up and under control, but it definitely got my attention. Makes sense that if I was on the back break instead of the relying more on the front.
Glad you are okay. The rear brake is just a lot harder to modulate, not only with our boot, but with less weight over it as we slow. Big, heavy cruisers can use a lot more rear brake, but even with them, the front brake, and our hand, is just so much more precise.
Nice video! im begginer and i wish to ask you if we use clutch up or down hilll , and how i manage de gear too?! thank you! ✌
Leave the clutch out. There are some times we may need to slip the clutch on super, duper extremely tight, extremely steep uphills when you are in first gear and still going too fast.
This video is incomplete to say the least. While using the front brake can be helpful, there are a lot of caveats to its use. But most importantly you should have mentioned to be in the lowest gear for the speed and for super slow downhill curves use rear brake instead.
Thats is a misnomer. The front brake gives us control over our speed, our contact patch, our suspension, our radius, our geometry, etc. Engine braking does none of those things. What do you do if you are relying on engine braking and you need to slow more? Do you add more coast?
In fact most riders, when we get them to enter corners a gear, or sometimes even two gears taller, they find downhill corners become exponentialy easier. They are smoother and they are in much more control.
Use all front, back and engine brake to slow down with body up coming to the turn..then Control the turn using tapping back brake and throttle control.
Took my gsxr 750 for 1st service and drove 1hr longer to avoid 2 mountains definitely need get over this and practice
But the mountain roads can be so much fun! I used to do the same thing, now I will ride 2 hours out of my way just to ride the roads I used to avoid.
Great advice and what a kick @$$ jacket 👍
Where im from. We have a lot of gravel on our roads. Any tips? Debris mostly from poor asphalt and rain... It rains a lot in the Philippines.
We brake sooner, lighter, longer, go slower and we reduce our lean angle to do what we can to avoid the gravel and debris. Riding in the Phillipines is like playing video games on hard mode.
Having learned to ride in the mid to late 70’s I was taught pretty much everything that you are saying are out dated methods. Certainly much of what I’ve heard you say makes a lot more sense and is helping me to reduce my fear, [well perhaps fear is not the right word] of using the front brake in corners. I have been trying to implement your ‘new to me’ idea’s and I have to admit I’ve had certain success, however the fear of the bike standing up mid bend and riding straight on is so deeply entrenched in my mind , that I’m very very wary of something cataclysmic happening while applying the front brake during a bend. Basically in my head a little voice says get in the right gear before the bend, scrub speed, tip in and progressively apply throttle while ‘driving’ through the bend and then accelerate once you eyeball the apex. If I’d only been riding a couple of years that way I think changing technique would be much easier, however I’ve been riding this way for decades and quite often being frustrated knowing that I could have executed that bend better than I had. I guess like many riders I figured some riders either have more skill than me or more likely that I’m not doing something right. Getting challenging bends right is always my goal and on the few occasions I nail it I’m made up the rest of the day. I need to find a way of making my brain and fear factor allow me to master front brake trail braking. May I ask what was it that made you turn your back on outdated techniques and learn to master braking continuously through a bend?