I’ve used the front brake mid turn very lightly, I was told by other riders to never use the brakes in a turn. I am not a fast rider but it’s a good tool. Thanks for your video.
I'd say careful doing that in a group. Especially if your tailight doesn't work. 5-10% break should be fine, I rode for 5 miles in deadmans curve behind a guy that stabbed his breaks hard mid corner every time and there was sand on the roads.. That was dumb.
When I came upon the luck of finding a former motorcycle brigade rider from the Army who told me "It's about HOW you use the brakes. If you can't STOP the bike at will, then you do NOT have control. You're betting your life on this thing, so you might want to figure out why you're gambling your life on something you don't control... or maybe quit." That was the day my father and my uncle both lost their privileges of coaching me on a motorcycle. My father always preached "The front brake will wash you out in a curve, so don't ever use it." My uncle always preached "The rear brake will get you killed in a curve, so don't ever use it."... SO my ex-Army "adopted uncle" taught me how to ride, alongside his son. He pissed me off plenty (about par for a 15 year old "know it already" if I'm honest) and I occasionally despised him for sucking the fun and excitement out of riding... BUT the lessons stuck. Looking back, I needed it. I deserved every syllable... and I'm glad to have gotten that coaching from him... and that he wouldn't baby me along for being a "dumb-ass kid". Slapped aloe with lidocaine on more than a fair swatch of road-rash and put me back on the bike... "Either make up your mind to ride, or quit." I never forgot that Aloe with Lidocaine trick either... haha... ;o)
@everyday tenor Thanks. Stories make otherwise "dry" education worth the perusal, and it's part of how we remember stuff... I was aware of the Romans using Aloe, and my mother even kept several plants when I was younger, because kids get into EVERYTHING they're not supposed to... The interesting detail is that it's helpful for road-rash. AND Emergency Medicine already uses lidocaine by the buckets, so they're used to it at a glance... For the budget, you just about can't do better. At the very least, if one engages "self teaching" about trail braking, I highly recommend doing so cautiously and gently... AND of course Greg over at Motojitsu should be studied up. I'm no GP racer, but I've even been fairly aggressive on the fronts in corners without much worry. There really IS no replacing a competent and caring coach, though. It really helps, whether you pick a grizzled ex-Army rider or a guy like Einatsch at ChampU or Kevin Morris with MCRider if you're in that corner of the country. A coach CAN be found, so long as a little care is taken about that "competent and caring" part. There is the MSF, at least in the States, but it can be a bit of a mixed bag and expensive to boot. ;o)
I have been riding 36 years and I am an average rider doing about 50 000 miles since 1983 without crashing once. As a rule I have always changed my front sprocket 1 tooth up. Why? Because the joy of riding rather than more power has always outstaged what my bike could do and what I was capable of. O do not get it when guys buy a 750 and expect 1000 performance. Being out in the open experiencing my 5 senses has always been more meaningful than trying to make my wife a widow. My older brother taught me. You get 2 types of riders. Those always pushing the limits on public roads and the old riders. You seldom get old riders pushing the limits. Choose which one you want to be because those who are both are too few. Great presentation though. I really found great value in your style of presenting. Clip really well put together. Great job thank you! Ride by faith and not by sight. . .
I love your videos where you cover such topics! I'm from India and the past 11 years i had been riding a 125cc proper commuter bike from Suzuki. But it was only recently that i started loving riding motorcycles. I thought i had gotten good at riding, so i decided to buy a 250cc bike. Again from Suzuki, a Gixxer sf250 made specifically for countries like ours. The power it puts out is pretty low by Western standards but its pretty decent (or more than enough in my case) for Indian roads, especially the state where I'm living in where its full of twists and turns. So the bike happens to be a sports tourer, the riding posture isn't that aggressive but still its very new to me. I can't help but find myself lean my bike around corners (something which i rarely used to do on my previous commuter motorcycle), the ergonomics of this bike just encourages me to lean. Now i get it why sports bikes are designed the way they are. There is so much more to learn about motorcycles, how each design serves a purpose or evoke a particular emotion. Your videos have helped me get a better understanding on the logic that involves when cornering a bike, I've been learning some of the points you mentioned intuitively but your points have given me much more clarity on it.
New rider here, about 800 miles on the bike I just want to say I’m glad I stumbled upon your channel I’ve been implementing the skills you’ve been talking about. My favorite one so far being to keep my two fingers always ready on the front brake at all times It has been a good habit to have Thank you for your experience !
Your and YCRS are my two favorite and most learned sources of riding info. It amazes me how few riders spend the time to actually learn how to ride better, safer, faster. Coaching and instruction is the most valuable part of your riding experience. Thanks for all you do to make this a better sport.
Thank you again for this amazing eye opener! It's a very welcome addition to get the rigidity about the "rules of motorcycle riding" out of our heads and system. After viewing one of your other videos I applied your words to my actions, and to my great relief cornering my motorcycle ( H-D Electra Glide CVO, 440 kgs dry) went way better than I was used to! So, in short, after doing those "do's & don'ts" you mentioned for 40+ years, I've been going over to your " school of riding" and the new views. It's good to keep on questioning what is right and wrong, and by doing so, bettering yourself all the time. Thanks again and greetings from The Netherlands!👏👏😎😎🇳🇱🇳🇱
Great discussion to encourage us all to keep an open mind and keep learning. I like the blend of race track to parking lot topics, it’s all about motorcycle control no matter where you’re riding.
I love your videos. I started watching your channel when I decided I was going to buy my first motorcycle, I’ve learned so much. Trail braking has helped me in corners, I feel a lot more confident and in control when cornering.
I've been a victim of the 'nevers,' specifically 'never touch the brake in a corner. The emphasis placed on smooth riding, both here and on other channels, is much appreciated. I could have used in my younger days, when I thought 'late braking' was all about diving deep into a corner and then jabbing the brake. Smooth riding is safer, faster and just more pleasant.
if you cant use the brakes in a curve, you can never ride on hills, because going down a hill on a curve you HAVE TO BRAKE or the bike speed will increase out of your control. You also have to be able to brake on a street corner, incase traffic in front of you stops suddenly. One of the most common places for accidents is just past an intersection, where everyone is careful going thru it, and then a vehicle slows and turns into a driveway just on the other side of the intersection. You "cant" use the brakes in a curve if you are already riding at the limit of traction.. ie. going TOO FAST to be able to compensate for anything unexpected
@@kenwittlief255 Great comments but don't forget you have a lot of engine breaking on most bikes, using this down hill in conjuction with your brakes is better practice than just relying on your brakes. Plus if you need to brake hard if traffic stops suddenly infront of you anywhere then you are riding to close to the vehicle in front. In the UK we use the 2 second rule, 2 secs between you and the vehicle in front is more than enough space to brake no matter what speed you are going, time over distance etc lol
@@wyrefpv9553 One point I somewhat disagree with you is the 2 second following time no matter the speed. If I'm riding on the interstate and in traffic that is going 85mph then 2 seconds is not enough time to safely stop.
Finally someone else that understands that there are no absolutes on a bike. As a rider of 41 years, racing RD350lc's and powervalves in the 80s, and 15 of them as a motorcycle instructor in the UK, I've been telling my students these things for years. I've always 'feathered' my brakes in corners if they are needed, but if they are needed then it was my fault for not reading the road correctly. At our school we also teach the students about tyre profiles when it comes to steering and cornering. The body language you get from a student when you introduce them to using their feet as well as countersteering is amazing to watch lol. I've even held the bike on the tyre limit to show students just how low a bike will lean, which on most bikes is approx 60 degrees, but if you need that on the road then you've screwed up somewhere on entry lol. As to cornering lines on the road I would point everyone in the direction of the UK's Police Riders Hand Book. This is used in RoSPA and IAM training, both of which are advanced levels of riding. The RoSPA Gold level is the basic level a police rider in the UK needs to be before they let them on the road. Brilliant video my friend!
When I was starting out one of the most frustrating things was trying to find "The" answer to various aspects of riding. As I progressed I realised that context is everything and a time and a place for all things often applies. Great video! The goals approach is a great way of looking at it.
I will say, from riding basic courses and taking performance driving courses in cars- your advice is spot on. The big part is practicing application to know what has the exact effect, and when or how much to apply said effect. Its the same concepts in all of motorsports. But mastering a motorcycle will definitely make you a safer automobile driver.
"Never apex on public roads"- i have seen the video of a couple who died because they were riding on apex and the oncoming car was little off the apex and they collided, all these advices are life savers for real. And a big thankyou to your whole team for putting this content online for free. Learning counter-steering(totally changed my riding experience) and trail braking from you has made me better and a more confident rider.✌️
I'd say one absolute on a bike is not to be abrupt. You touch on that with the brakes and throttle, but applies to most of motorcycling. You don't want to be abrupt with the controls, weight transfer, direction changes...etc. Your examples and explanations are great....there are not many hard and fast rules. We've all heard that "smooth is fast", but smooth is also safer.
I agree with everything you said in this video. Smooth progressive inputs make perfect sense to me. I try to take care that I have the speed roughly right coming into the corner, positioning to the left of the road (UK) for right handers and more towards the centre of the lane for left handers, and follow the limit point through the bend, using small throttle adjustments. Rolling on throttle, and bringing the bike upright as the limit point widens out, I try to accelerate smoothly out of the bend. My bike has lean angle ABS, so if I need to brake in the corner there is some safety net there. When I have had to brake mid corner, the bike has shown a tendency to 'stand up', so if you're sneaking in a little two finger action, mid corner it can unsettle the bike if too extreme.
Yeah this is the part that YCRS doesn't teach you. I've had to do hard braking in a downhill corner because I misjudged the corner exit. Stupid me, I know, but the bike did want to stand up and move toward the center line, so I had to lean more and find a safe exit path. It's a good thing I already had light braking before entering the curve and applied progressively more brakes as I neared the apex.
@@fallinginthed33p It isn't a nice feeling, especially if the road surface is poor with gravel towards the crown of the road! You find the bike heading straight for it, discovering along the way that the true colour of adrenaline is in fact brown!
@@fallinginthed33p never look directly at something you want to avoid. Always look at we're you want to go, because that's we're you will go. Especially on a bike, but even in a car. Seen lots of riders drive over things on the road when there's plenty of space to avoid it. Especially when going to fast for the rider to keep up, there vision becomes shorter and shorter.
Good info. There's one use of throttle and front brake I'd like to get advice on before I'm ready to accept it as an absolute. Freeway offramp, in traffic. I want to slow down from moderately high speed gradually, and signal to vehicles behind. Sometimes I use rear brake, but I find I have more finesse on the front brake (I can more accurately feel where ~5% is, just enough to light up the brake light). If I completely close the throttle and use engine braking, I slow too much and am risking being rear-ended because of no brake light. Sometimes I find it's better to roll off the throttle and begin to front brake slightly, but leave the throttle open just a bit, to maintain momentum but begin slowing. Then if I completely need to stop once I've exited or get back on the gas if the light is green I can transition to either. This is one example of a situation that's hard to describe, and it may be particular to my 300cc bike, but I'd be open to discussing better alternatives.
This is an interesting question because your argument is you are using the brake light for communication, more than slowing, so I understand where you are coming from. That said, the risks of overlapping the front brake and the throttle are still legitimate. However, overlapping the rear brake and the throttle is actually something a lot of us do a lot to control wheelies or to stabilize the chassis in some specific situations (probably less of an issue on a little bike). So I gotta say, I'd be far more inclined to use the rear brake. We can actually adjust the rear brake lever so that the light would come on early, before the brakes were actually engaged (if we wanted) so we could still communicate without pushing front and rear tires against each other.
This is my first visit to your channel and the content is excellent. I am also impressed, after reading many comments, by the civil manner displayed. On some channels, it becomes a free-for-all of unpleasant disagreement.
"Never push the throttle against the front brake" I do think that depends. Unless you mean acceleration and braking simultaneously, then I absolutely agree. I do press lightly on the front brake around blind corners with a steady throttle, since it reduces perception time should something pop up out of nowhere. The amount of braking is very small, almost insignificant, so, maybe that doesn't count.
We would encourage you to completely release the front brake whenever the throttle is open. Even simply pressing pads against rotors sends the bike conflicting signals. Moreover, while it might "work," it's "working" in the same sense that using a machete to peel an onion would also "work." Covering the brake is a fantastic practice. "Preloading" the lever is overkill and frankly, nobody good does it.
@@Ridelikeachampionycrs I appreciate your input. You're probably right about it being overkill. I'm still a relatively new rider. Been riding for 2 years so far, and still learning. I guess I'll just resort to covering the front brakes rather than preloading them.
@@Ridelikeachampionycrs I've been struggling with this too, maybe you can help. From ChampU, I know that loading the front tire with the brake increases grip. Sometimes when cornering I want that feeling of increased front wheel traction, but releasing throttle entirely supplies so much engine braking on the rear that it rapidly scrubs off speed, and my front-rear bias would seem to be pretty neutral instead of front being slightly loaded. Do you have any comments on that? Thanks in advance!
@@fallinginthed33p Even more important that we don't conflict the two. Super tight corners and the front is already heavily loaded? Try adding a little rear brake :)
You’ve no idea how much I wanna be near you ! You teach me this much , through this distance, and just with videos , as you say , you love bikes and riding , i do too , however it turns out very late , but i love riding . I wish , and believe me not just wishing, I’ll try my best to being in the situation which i can be there near you , to learn more and spend more time with you if you accept ! Sincerely your student, soheyl
A very useful technique I have recently acquired for anticipating a possible emergency braking situation is as follows Pull your front brake lever in that 10 or 12 millimetres until the pads are barely touching the front disc. By doing this, it overcomes the tendency to “stab” the front brake in an emergency. Try this yourself you will feel the difference Great content Dave and always well presented. I have learned so much from you. Thanks heaps mate from Australia.
@@VState60 I am not sure you understood what I meant. I only use the technique in a possible emergency situation such as somebody coming up to turn in front of you. By just barely touching the pads on the rotor it eliminates the tendency to stab the front brake giving you better control for a safe stop if necessary.
Agree. When anything looks dicey up ahead rapidly bring the brake lever to the point where the pads are just touching the rotors and hold it there. That way you reduce your reaction time and are set up to squeeze on the brakes properly.
What kept going through my head when I took a turn too fast off the highway was, "Never use the brakes in a turn!" Six broken ribs and shoulder later, I wish that poor advice hadn't been drilled into my head and I had known better.
This is absolutely correct. If you ride long enough, you will run into every (what to do when) scenario and it's exceptions! A great no nonsense advise!
Never use the throttle against the front brake is great advice, but should not be confused to mean release the throttle then grab the brake. When I approach a corner, I ease off the throttle while gently squeezing the front brake. Basically as I roll off the throttle, I roll my index and middle finger (that have been covering the front brake) down against the brake lever. This 1. Loads the front end as I pull in the slack of the front lever, and 2. Gradually eases the force from the rear tire into the front braking wheel as braking increases. I end up at ZERO throttle pretty quickly, but this helps keep the ride smooth. I love this advice, and have shared to my children ages 30 and 21. I don't know everything.
I too roll off the throttle and right onto the front brake, but a lot of programs are teaching that trail braking is being on the throttle and the front brake at the same time.
I use the rear break (only) in a corner all the time (not always of course but quite often) . I find it really useful if you realize half way through the corner that you've chosen the wrong line , (which I'm prone to do) .
Stabing the front brake for stoppie. Stab the rear to slide. Stunt riding. But learning to slide the rear can be useful. Front brake and throttle.... smokie burn out! Also forces the front suspension to compress. Back more to stunt riding.
I don't know yet how to ride a sports bike. But I learned how to ride a small displacement bike back when I was at 6th grade. Not familiar with those lean angles and stuffs, but I was doing everything you said subconsciously, except on the part where I could use my front brakes when slowing down on mid-corners because I always thought that it would be risky and the counter-steering part. Well, it just shows that riding a moped, small displacement bikes is different from riding a sports bike. Thank you for the tips.
Thank you for these great lessons on riding here in the Philippines especially in the provinces we have to motorcycle track to run on instead we use the streets and so far I have used your techniques on my travels and enjoyed the ride as for the quote I saw in a rider's vest..."It's not the destination but the Ride". Thanks so much guys!
Nice talk, as usual, but I disagree on one issue. Counter-steering is effectively the ONLY way to turn a bike. Weighting the inside peg will do nothing (*). It only serves the purpose of making riders feel confortable with what they’re doing by fooling themselves. On generic terms, a center of mass can only change its velocity (it’s a vector, so, it has a direction which can change too) if an external force is applied. Aside from “wind”, there are only two external forces acting on a motorcycle, which are the reaction forces of the tarmac acting on the tyres contact patches. Nothing else can change the center of mass velocity direction, or, if you prefer, the center of mass position on the bike/rider’s reference. You can lean the bike more by applying more of your weight on the inside peg, but by doing that without changing the external forces, the rider’s body will shift to the opposite side by such an amount that the center of mass of the bike/rider set will remain in the exact same position. And keep in mind that the trajectory of the bike is dictated by the angle of the center of mass of the set bike/rider with respect to the tyre contact patches. Internal forces will do nothing for you. (*) might need some further clarification…..
Yeah I think that might be the ONE hilarious Keith Code demo- He’s got a guy off the motorcycle-both feet standing on the left peg-hands off the bars- Steering head doesn’t move-bike doesn’t turn. Peg-weighting does nothing at all-or does it? The one thing it DOES DO is it gets your ass up off the seat a little bit- And that actually can be a little advantageous to counter steering- Especially in a really tight sequence of S-turns or the chicane as he describes. If your body is sort of pivoting along with your steering-it can seem a lot more natural when getting through the hard stuff. Does peg-weighting, in and of itself, initiate any kind of lean on the bike or maybe make the rear dig in a little harder?- No the responder is CORRECT- it doesn’t do fuck-all without the corresponding steering inputs.
Adding weight to 1 foot is for bikes where your feet are under you. Think of sumo fighters. They put all weight on 1 leg and the other leg comes up. You do kind of the same thing but with out lifting your leg. It helps with a couple of things. 1, when you do this you tend to lift your but off or nearly off the seat, which helps being able to switch center of gravity/position on the bike. 2, it helps move more weight lower on the bike and center the weight longitudinal/front to back. (Your weight is on the pegs not the seat) 3, this really only works when leaning. If you do this straight up and down your upper body compensates to keep the bike vertical. If you lift your but slightly off the seat and practice full lane side to side swerves the way you normally would but add weight transfer to your feet it will happen quicker. Using your weight on the pegs is for very aggressive riding but can help in on road oh shit situations if you have practice with the technique.
@@lovepcgaming2335 Sumo fighters are using external forces when they put all weight on 1 leg. Those are ground reaction forces. You do not have that on a bike, unless you use your feet against the ground. 1. You can not change the center of gravity of the set "you and your bike" without using external forces. You can change your center of gravity though, and the bike will change its CG so that the CG of the set "you and your bike" will remain exactly the same. 2. If you put all your weight on the pegs, instead of the bike sit, that does not change yours or the bike's CG. 3. I don't get what you mean..... You can lift your but all you want if that "makes you feel" or "adds to your confidence" in swerving. Using your weight on the pegs does absolutely nothing in terms of physics. But I understand if it helps your mind...... What you are aiming for when you press a peg or press a knee against the tank or whatever (I've heard it all), is the same an astronaut without nothing to push against would try to do to reach his spacecraft 2 meters away. He's dead, but he will make a lot of movements before acknowledging it......
What I mean by this last sentence is that the astronaut can extend his arms and whatever. But there is no way he'll be able to change his CG position. He has no access to external forces to change his CG position, therefore he''ll never reach the spacecraft. He will die 2 meters away from the safety of his spacecraft.
Started riding track days about the same time I got my license! Best thing I’ve ever done, understanding you motorcycle in extreme conditions will save your life one day! All the “don’t’s is something you use on the track all the time, from trailbraking, turning your front to where you want to go in mid corner by accelerating with massive lean angle…. Countersteering etc… Thing is, you never need to ride at that level in traffic, not worth it, but to have it in your back could definitely save you some day when things go south
@6:00 there’s a pretty popular ‘coach’ who I’ve seen speak on TH-cam and to crowds of folks who teaches this-I disagree with about 90% of what he teaches and I hope this was directed at him 😂
I very respectfully disagree with the brake throttle never overlaping. Maybe on the track where you can clearly see your radius and exit but, IMHO, on unknown mountain roads full of blind curves, maintenance throttle along with maintenance front brake provides wanted tension throughout the drivetrain so nothing upsets suspension. Then smooth modulation of the front brake provides adequate variable for the turn. What if it's a long sweeping blind turn and your satisfied with your speed and release the front brake only to find you have to re-administer it if the turn tightens up, or a deer jumps out. Isn't it best to have that pad bedded lightly to the rotor and your fingers 1/3 lever in when bambi jumps out? I worded this matter of factly but I am asking, because discovering this was one of my biggest breakthroughs. I would agree, however, that as one is lightly increased the other should be lightly decreased
I agree regarding braking under maintenance throttle on curvy mountain roads. Applying light brake pressure, maybe 5% or so, compresses the front fork and increases the front contact patch. Letting go of the throttle mid-corner to apply brakes can cause the bike to tip forward suddenly.
No one taught me how to ride, other than my dad jumping out in front of me when I was 12 making sure I could brake. He was an idiot. I ride a 145 hp, 650 lb wet weight bike at high speed on unfamiliar back roads. That means decreasing radius turns are common. And fun (or the end of your day). I STRONGLY suggest all motorcyclists find the nearest gravel road. With curves. Ride it slowly at first only using gentle inputs on all controls. Go slowly. Then, gradually test the limits of grip (this works best with a beater bike, but if you learn to recognize what loss of grip feels like, you’ll be fine). Either way, if/when you fall, physics gives you the lessons you need. Then, and only then, use what you learned when street riding. You will have learned what it feels like when you are on the bleeding edge of traction, and know what to do to not get that close again. As an added benefit, knowing all that, you can become VERY fast on road courses. I didn’t go that direction, and never ride over 9/10ths. Be safe out there!
You can overlap the throttle with the front or rear brake whenever you’re going really slow in traffic to help keep you from needing to put your feet down or you can get a Rekluse automatic centrifugal clutch and put it in your hayabusa and solve the problem FOREVER!!! I can’t stress enough how awesome the automatic clutch is. It would be especially amazing for new riders too because you can still use the clutch as normal or you can just be super easy on the throttle and not use the clutch. I love mine. (I’m not shilling for rekluse, just giving new riders an idea for a good option to try and make their ride better).
Great information! NEVER applying brakes while cornering probably originates from riding my BSA Victor. The brakes were the original "adventure motorcycle ".
I usually don't start breaking until I'm in a corner, lol. Trail braking is my comfort zone. But then again, I used to race professionally.. an easy thing to remember is the brake pressure is an inverse relationship to lean angle. The more you lean the less you brake, the less you lean the more you brake. If you're going to ask me "how much can you break at a given point during a turn?" I'm going to say, go to the track and find out. You won't know the limit until you crash, but you can get very close to the limit without crashing at the track. If you want to be as fast as you can possibly be, then crash. It's how you learn the fastest, lol
This is exactly what I was thinking about before you uploaded it 👍🏼 Thank you 💯 can you reiterate one for track riding when you into that intermediate class pushing pace into the race class?
Great information as always. One of the rules I have always broken comfortably has been rolling the throttle on slowly once my corner is set. I trust my tires. I’m still engaged in lean and I’m trail breaking and I start rolling on the fuel.
Right. If we're comfortable with our speed and direction, but not quite ready to go back to the gas and take away lean angle, maintenance throttle is the tool. But I probably would encourage you to not brake and maintenance throttle simultaneously. :)
Thanks for addressing resuming braking in the middle of a corner; it seldom is on TH-cam motorcycle channels. But I find myself getting grabby with the front brake. During this period that I am learning to go easier on the front brake in that situation, I use engine braking with the clutch 'cause it's easier to finesse the clutch than the front brake. People will say you're burning out the transmission or clutch, but I'll take that chance. Just be aware you will want to be in a higher gear than usual, because the engine is gonna start screaming.
I'd encourage you to continue to focus on the front brake. We're not especially worried about wear, but you have significantly more control with your front brake. You can add and subtract small amounts of pressure for incredible precision. When engine braking, what do we do if we need to slow even more? Add more coast?
People dont realize how smooth you need to be until you start hitting the limits of group on the track or when riding in the wet. 1mm of throttle on cold tires in the wet or on the limit can high side you on a big bike.
I use front brake to shorten wheel base in corners to contribute lean angle. I use throttle to maintain speed while doing this. So I disagree with not overlapping these controls since I have those overlapping goals. Great video as always. Thanks for all you do.
@@CanyonChasers i know. but since i don't know their reasons, i can't judge their advice. the term "trail braking" is overbroad, in part because it assumes i'll finish using one control before applying the other. note that if i had a "suck the front tube up a bit to shorten the wheelbase" control i would be using that instead of the front brake in this situation. i wrote a similar comment on the video in which you explained why the anti-dive feature of BMW Telelever wasn't much to your liking. meanwhile i'll go on enjoying your work, and thanks again for that.
Shortening wheelbase does not increase lean angle. Braking might compress the front suspension, decrease the rake angle and trail, but only if it actually results in deceleration. If you are using the throttle against the brake "to maintain speed" you are not decelerating so there is no change in geometry.
I was always a little uneasy about using the front brake while entering or rounding a curve untill I read about trail braking. When trail braking lightly through a turn the motorcycle feels more stable and feels like it wants to go through the turn without being forced too.
@@CanyonChasers That is not what was said in the video. All that was said in the video was that you can, with care, use the brakes in a turn, but it is something you should normally avoid. Riding on a track, braking hard on the approach to a turn, front suspension compressed; trail braking gradually reduces weight transfer due to braking as centripetal force takes over. It minimizes disruption of the front suspension. It's not really appropriate to the way a bike is ridden on public roads.
@@roadracingrelics I was always told not to touch the front brake in a curve period. If you need to slow down straighten the bike first. There's not always time to do that. Going to fast into an unfamiliar curve, finding debris in the road or approaching a slow car around a curve can be safely and smoothly dealt with. If you already have your pads lightly touching the brake disk a little more pressure can be safely applied to slow you in a curve. Applying a little front brake in a curve is not going to automatically cause you to crash like I was lead to believe. If you have the slack out of t system you can smoothly add a little more pressure and safely slow in a curve. No fingers on the lever might cause it to be applied too fast and harder than intended and cause an accident. Just my opinion from my experience. Still learning with 40 years in the saddle.
The MSF used to teach, I assume they still do, that if you have to brake in a turn you can either get the bike vertical as quickly as possible and then use maximum braking or you can continue turning, applying progressively more brake pressure as the bike becomes upright. Slightly dragging the brakes in a turn isn't trail braking. Trail braking is about managing the transition from hard braking, on the approach to a turn, and hard turning as experienced on a race track.
I agree with everything but I do want to mention that Trail braking to load the front forks through a corner is a common technique, it helps with traction and cornering stability and uses front brake and throttle
Finesse. I've found that it helps a lot to have a nice comfy pair of gloves. Some gloves, you can't feel anything. No feedback for those small decimal points of control. Winter riding compounds the problems as your fingers can get a bit numb. So you have to back off, right? Anyway, I've tried different gloves and my favourite were Nankai. Hard to get now.
Great video. I miss riding. Haven't ridden since 2014. Even it's been that long I still have buying another motorcycle in the back of my mind. Every now and then I look at cycletrader and go to my local Honda dealership.
@@patrickmba7638 no injuries even while I was riding, knock on wood, mostly just life in general, moved to another state, and starting a family. My wife isn't against me getting one but when I do it'll be just my toy on two wheels.
I make a conscious effort to brake all the "rules". Just a little when I am sure the consequence will not be very bad. I could be wrong, but I personally think it makes a person a better rider for a lot of reasons. A rider should know exactly what there bike is and isn't capable of. And it gives a rider more options and a greater skillset.
"Never push the throttle against the front brake." I wouldn't be surprised if that is why they are both controlled with almost opposite inputs of the right hand. You roll your hand back to throttle up, and you roll your hand forward to reach the front brake.
I realized that I had a bad habit when riding in canyon corners. I was surprised to see me using both trail braking and throttle only when turning right. So sometimes it was dangerous. My bike is naked. I put my elbows under the handlebars and it got a little better. I need more practice...
Seriously ... Just lean "Moar"? Is that what just flashed up on my screen? I had to look more than once but yep, there it was. 😁 Another great video guys. Excellent advice and great passion as always.
Certainly haven't mastered the technique, but I found I could get insanely tight u-turns, hairpins, etc if I kept a little front brake applied while rolling on the throttle. This compresses both front and rear suspension and on some bike geometries will shorten the wheelbase significantly.
And remember... The streets and roads are not controlled environments. On a track you can get away with many things and not have to deal with hazards commonly present on streets/roads. Have fun responsibly so you can keep doing it for many years.
the limit of lean of the bike and rider together (CG of total mass) is 45° on a curve. Unless your tires can grip with more than 1g, at 45° the force holding you down on the asphalt and the centripetal force trying to slide your bike sideways are equal. You go any faster you slide out, like a roofer trying to stand on a steep roof with street shoes. Most sport and racing bikes will lean more than 45° without scraping the frame or pegs and you can get in trouble fast. The problem is nothing scrapes so you get NO warning that you have passed 45° and are about to lose it. Leaning your body weight inside the turn keeps the bike more upright, and keeps IT from hitting more than 45°, but it also side loads your tires more (the wheels are no longer vertical with the center of force on them) and if you have spokes you are side loading the spokes - not good. Cruiser bikes by their design will scrape the floorboards or pegs or frame well before reaching 45° lean. If they take a corner too fast leaning your body weight into the curve might allow you to stay on the road, or in your lane, without scraping the frame and sliding out... but if you are taking corners that fast on a cruiser bike sooner or later you will side out, or hit something in your lane because you are riding beyond the limit of your vision in the curves.
I want to point out that you can use brake and throttle at the same time in case you are rev matching during down shifting . And You can add throttle at tunns if you are counter leaning (ofcourse not 100%).
in the first - thats not pushing the rear tire against the front - your not driving the rear into the front. in the second - You can, but thats extremely risky. Counterleaning requires even more lean, and uses up even more grip. When accelerating while artificially adding lean you can run out of grip very quickly.
@@CanyonChasers Counter leaning can reduce the chance of low siding because less lateral force and more vertical force is applied on the tyre because the center of mass is closer to the point of contact between tyre and load.
@adityasubhedar9556 nope. You are ignoring centripetal force and tire deformation. Lean equals risk. But lean is how we turn. The only times we want to use counter leaning is at low speeds when we have lots of grip. Outside of that specific scenario we mostly want to avoid it.
@@CanyonChasers context is very important in this case. You're right, when you lean with the bike the risk of crashing increases and you should not risk loosing the rear by using too much throttle.
Not disputing, but anecdotally, and iirc, Troy Corser would hit the brakes and the gas in the corners on the early Aprilia RSV to get enough stiffness from the bike.
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I’ve used the front brake mid turn very lightly, I was told by other riders to never use the brakes in a turn. I am not a fast rider but it’s a good tool. Thanks for your video.
ya lots of opinions by pros....who never shop for more riding tools then what's in their tool bag
I'd say careful doing that in a group. Especially if your tailight doesn't work. 5-10% break should be fine, I rode for 5 miles in deadmans curve behind a guy that stabbed his breaks hard mid corner every time and there was sand on the roads.. That was dumb.
@FR learn how to read
When I came upon the luck of finding a former motorcycle brigade rider from the Army who told me "It's about HOW you use the brakes. If you can't STOP the bike at will, then you do NOT have control. You're betting your life on this thing, so you might want to figure out why you're gambling your life on something you don't control... or maybe quit."
That was the day my father and my uncle both lost their privileges of coaching me on a motorcycle. My father always preached "The front brake will wash you out in a curve, so don't ever use it." My uncle always preached "The rear brake will get you killed in a curve, so don't ever use it."...
SO my ex-Army "adopted uncle" taught me how to ride, alongside his son. He pissed me off plenty (about par for a 15 year old "know it already" if I'm honest) and I occasionally despised him for sucking the fun and excitement out of riding...
BUT the lessons stuck. Looking back, I needed it. I deserved every syllable... and I'm glad to have gotten that coaching from him... and that he wouldn't baby me along for being a "dumb-ass kid". Slapped aloe with lidocaine on more than a fair swatch of road-rash and put me back on the bike... "Either make up your mind to ride, or quit."
I never forgot that Aloe with Lidocaine trick either... haha... ;o)
@everyday tenor Thanks. Stories make otherwise "dry" education worth the perusal, and it's part of how we remember stuff...
I was aware of the Romans using Aloe, and my mother even kept several plants when I was younger, because kids get into EVERYTHING they're not supposed to...
The interesting detail is that it's helpful for road-rash. AND Emergency Medicine already uses lidocaine by the buckets, so they're used to it at a glance... For the budget, you just about can't do better.
At the very least, if one engages "self teaching" about trail braking, I highly recommend doing so cautiously and gently... AND of course Greg over at Motojitsu should be studied up. I'm no GP racer, but I've even been fairly aggressive on the fronts in corners without much worry.
There really IS no replacing a competent and caring coach, though. It really helps, whether you pick a grizzled ex-Army rider or a guy like Einatsch at ChampU or Kevin Morris with MCRider if you're in that corner of the country. A coach CAN be found, so long as a little care is taken about that "competent and caring" part. There is the MSF, at least in the States, but it can be a bit of a mixed bag and expensive to boot. ;o)
Rybo's 12 year old son once told me "Don't surprise the bike!" ... mature words from a 12 year old!
I have used that line for years. It was such a beautiful explanation, yeah.
I've always ridden with 2 fingers on the clutch and 2 on the brake. A hold out from my dirt bike days I guess. Never did me wrong.
I have been riding 36 years and I am an average rider doing about 50 000 miles since 1983 without crashing once. As a rule I have always changed my front sprocket 1 tooth up. Why? Because the joy of riding rather than more power has always outstaged what my bike could do and what I was capable of. O do not get it when guys buy a 750 and expect 1000 performance. Being out in the open experiencing my 5 senses has always been more meaningful than trying to make my wife a widow. My older brother taught me. You get 2 types of riders. Those always pushing the limits on public roads and the old riders. You seldom get old riders pushing the limits. Choose which one you want to be because those who are both are too few.
Great presentation though. I really found great value in your style of presenting. Clip really well put together. Great job thank you!
Ride by faith and not by sight. . .
I love your videos where you cover such topics! I'm from India and the past 11 years i had been riding a 125cc proper commuter bike from Suzuki. But it was only recently that i started loving riding motorcycles. I thought i had gotten good at riding, so i decided to buy a 250cc bike. Again from Suzuki, a Gixxer sf250 made specifically for countries like ours. The power it puts out is pretty low by Western standards but its pretty decent (or more than enough in my case) for Indian roads, especially the state where I'm living in where its full of twists and turns. So the bike happens to be a sports tourer, the riding posture isn't that aggressive but still its very new to me. I can't help but find myself lean my bike around corners (something which i rarely used to do on my previous commuter motorcycle), the ergonomics of this bike just encourages me to lean. Now i get it why sports bikes are designed the way they are. There is so much more to learn about motorcycles, how each design serves a purpose or evoke a particular emotion. Your videos have helped me get a better understanding on the logic that involves when cornering a bike, I've been learning some of the points you mentioned intuitively but your points have given me much more clarity on it.
New rider here, about 800 miles on the bike
I just want to say I’m glad I stumbled upon your channel
I’ve been implementing the skills you’ve been talking about.
My favorite one so far being to keep my two fingers always ready on the front brake at all times
It has been a good habit to have
Thank you for your experience !
Your and YCRS are my two favorite and most learned sources of riding info. It amazes me how few riders spend the time to actually learn how to ride better, safer, faster. Coaching and instruction is the most valuable part of your riding experience. Thanks for all you do to make this a better sport.
Thank you again for this amazing eye opener! It's a very welcome addition to get the rigidity about the "rules of motorcycle riding" out of our heads and system. After viewing one of your other videos I applied your words to my actions, and to my great relief cornering my motorcycle ( H-D Electra Glide CVO, 440 kgs dry) went way better than I was used to! So, in short, after doing those "do's & don'ts" you mentioned for 40+ years, I've been going over to your " school of riding" and the new views. It's good to keep on questioning what is right and wrong, and by doing so, bettering yourself all the time. Thanks again and greetings from The Netherlands!👏👏😎😎🇳🇱🇳🇱
Great discussion to encourage us all to keep an open mind and keep learning. I like the blend of race track to parking lot topics, it’s all about motorcycle control no matter where you’re riding.
Thanks!! Obviously I agree. 😎
I love your videos. I started watching your channel when I decided I was going to buy my first motorcycle, I’ve learned so much. Trail braking has helped me in corners, I feel a lot more confident and in control when cornering.
I've been a victim of the 'nevers,' specifically 'never touch the brake in a corner. The emphasis placed on smooth riding, both here and on other channels, is much appreciated. I could have used in my younger days, when I thought 'late braking' was all about diving deep into a corner and then jabbing the brake. Smooth riding is safer, faster and just more pleasant.
if you cant use the brakes in a curve, you can never ride on hills, because going down a hill on a curve you HAVE TO BRAKE or the bike speed will increase out of your control.
You also have to be able to brake on a street corner, incase traffic in front of you stops suddenly. One of the most common places for accidents is just past an intersection, where everyone is careful going thru it, and then a vehicle slows and turns into a driveway just on the other side of the intersection.
You "cant" use the brakes in a curve if you are already riding at the limit of traction.. ie. going TOO FAST to be able to compensate for anything unexpected
@@kenwittlief255 Great comments but don't forget you have a lot of engine breaking on most bikes, using this down hill in conjuction with your brakes is better practice than just relying on your brakes. Plus if you need to brake hard if traffic stops suddenly infront of you anywhere then you are riding to close to the vehicle in front. In the UK we use the 2 second rule, 2 secs between you and the vehicle in front is more than enough space to brake no matter what speed you are going, time over distance etc lol
@@wyrefpv9553 One point I somewhat disagree with you is the 2 second following time no matter the speed. If I'm riding on the interstate and in traffic that is going 85mph then 2 seconds is not enough time to safely stop.
Finally someone else that understands that there are no absolutes on a bike. As a rider of 41 years, racing RD350lc's and powervalves in the 80s, and 15 of them as a motorcycle instructor in the UK, I've been telling my students these things for years. I've always 'feathered' my brakes in corners if they are needed, but if they are needed then it was my fault for not reading the road correctly. At our school we also teach the students about tyre profiles when it comes to steering and cornering. The body language you get from a student when you introduce them to using their feet as well as countersteering is amazing to watch lol. I've even held the bike on the tyre limit to show students just how low a bike will lean, which on most bikes is approx 60 degrees, but if you need that on the road then you've screwed up somewhere on entry lol. As to cornering lines on the road I would point everyone in the direction of the UK's Police Riders Hand Book. This is used in RoSPA and IAM training, both of which are advanced levels of riding. The RoSPA Gold level is the basic level a police rider in the UK needs to be before they let them on the road.
Brilliant video my friend!
When I was starting out one of the most frustrating things was trying to find "The" answer to various aspects of riding. As I progressed I realised that context is everything and a time and a place for all things often applies. Great video! The goals approach is a great way of looking at it.
Wow, your videos are so good. They're no doubt the most ready-to use technical motorcycle video i've found un TH-cam.
I will say, from riding basic courses and taking performance driving courses in cars- your advice is spot on. The big part is practicing application to know what has the exact effect, and when or how much to apply said effect. Its the same concepts in all of motorsports. But mastering a motorcycle will definitely make you a safer automobile driver.
I felt your sincerity really come through on this one at the end. Ride well brother.
"Never apex on public roads"- i have seen the video of a couple who died because they were riding on apex and the oncoming car was little off the apex and they collided, all these advices are life savers for real.
And a big thankyou to your whole team for putting this content online for free. Learning counter-steering(totally changed my riding experience) and trail braking from you has made me better and a more confident rider.✌️
I'd say one absolute on a bike is not to be abrupt. You touch on that with the brakes and throttle, but applies to most of motorcycling. You don't want to be abrupt with the controls, weight transfer, direction changes...etc. Your examples and explanations are great....there are not many hard and fast rules. We've all heard that "smooth is fast", but smooth is also safer.
I totally agree. Another would be "never drop your helmet," yeah?
@@CanyonChasers No doubt...lol. Great content!!
Never override the ability to see thru the corner… the street is full of unknowns and is very unforgiving .
I agree with everything you said in this video. Smooth progressive inputs make perfect sense to me.
I try to take care that I have the speed roughly right coming into the corner, positioning to the left of the road (UK) for right handers and more towards the centre of the lane for left handers, and follow the limit point through the bend, using small throttle adjustments. Rolling on throttle, and bringing the bike upright as the limit point widens out, I try to accelerate smoothly out of the bend. My bike has lean angle ABS, so if I need to brake in the corner there is some safety net there. When I have had to brake mid corner, the bike has shown a tendency to 'stand up', so if you're sneaking in a little two finger action, mid corner it can unsettle the bike if too extreme.
Yeah this is the part that YCRS doesn't teach you. I've had to do hard braking in a downhill corner because I misjudged the corner exit.
Stupid me, I know, but the bike did want to stand up and move toward the center line, so I had to lean more and find a safe exit path. It's a good thing I already had light braking before entering the curve and applied progressively more brakes as I neared the apex.
@@fallinginthed33p It isn't a nice feeling, especially if the road surface is poor with gravel towards the crown of the road! You find the bike heading straight for it, discovering along the way that the true colour of adrenaline is in fact brown!
@@David40S Don't look at gravel patches. Get target fixated and you will crash.
@@fallinginthed33p never look directly at something you want to avoid. Always look at we're you want to go, because that's we're you will go. Especially on a bike, but even in a car. Seen lots of riders drive over things on the road when there's plenty of space to avoid it.
Especially when going to fast for the rider to keep up, there vision becomes shorter and shorter.
Nice to see a sensible video with good and reasonable advice. Very helpful to many, thank you.
Thanks so much!
I just wish more channels were this balanced and encouraged people to think for themselves like on these videos!
Thank you! Thats some super high praise!
Well said. It's always nice to get confirmation on one's habits and beliefs. Riding for 50 years, vastly improved in the last 4.
I love this!
Good info. There's one use of throttle and front brake I'd like to get advice on before I'm ready to accept it as an absolute.
Freeway offramp, in traffic. I want to slow down from moderately high speed gradually, and signal to vehicles behind. Sometimes I use rear brake, but I find I have more finesse on the front brake (I can more accurately feel where ~5% is, just enough to light up the brake light). If I completely close the throttle and use engine braking, I slow too much and am risking being rear-ended because of no brake light.
Sometimes I find it's better to roll off the throttle and begin to front brake slightly, but leave the throttle open just a bit, to maintain momentum but begin slowing. Then if I completely need to stop once I've exited or get back on the gas if the light is green I can transition to either.
This is one example of a situation that's hard to describe, and it may be particular to my 300cc bike, but I'd be open to discussing better alternatives.
This is an interesting question because your argument is you are using the brake light for communication, more than slowing, so I understand where you are coming from.
That said, the risks of overlapping the front brake and the throttle are still legitimate. However, overlapping the rear brake and the throttle is actually something a lot of us do a lot to control wheelies or to stabilize the chassis in some specific situations (probably less of an issue on a little bike).
So I gotta say, I'd be far more inclined to use the rear brake. We can actually adjust the rear brake lever so that the light would come on early, before the brakes were actually engaged (if we wanted) so we could still communicate without pushing front and rear tires against each other.
This is my first visit to your channel and the content is excellent. I am also impressed, after reading many comments, by the civil manner displayed. On some channels, it becomes a free-for-all of unpleasant disagreement.
"Never push the throttle against the front brake"
I do think that depends. Unless you mean acceleration and braking simultaneously, then I absolutely agree.
I do press lightly on the front brake around blind corners with a steady throttle, since it reduces perception time should something pop up out of nowhere. The amount of braking is very small, almost insignificant, so, maybe that doesn't count.
We would encourage you to completely release the front brake whenever the throttle is open. Even simply pressing pads against rotors sends the bike conflicting signals. Moreover, while it might "work," it's "working" in the same sense that using a machete to peel an onion would also "work." Covering the brake is a fantastic practice. "Preloading" the lever is overkill and frankly, nobody good does it.
@@Ridelikeachampionycrs I appreciate your input. You're probably right about it being overkill. I'm still a relatively new rider. Been riding for 2 years so far, and still learning. I guess I'll just resort to covering the front brakes rather than preloading them.
@@Ridelikeachampionycrs How about for tight mountain roads with potential gravel or mud mid-corner?
@@Ridelikeachampionycrs I've been struggling with this too, maybe you can help. From ChampU, I know that loading the front tire with the brake increases grip. Sometimes when cornering I want that feeling of increased front wheel traction, but releasing throttle entirely supplies so much engine braking on the rear that it rapidly scrubs off speed, and my front-rear bias would seem to be pretty neutral instead of front being slightly loaded. Do you have any comments on that? Thanks in advance!
@@fallinginthed33p Even more important that we don't conflict the two. Super tight corners and the front is already heavily loaded? Try adding a little rear brake :)
You’ve no idea how much I wanna be near you ! You teach me this much , through this distance, and just with videos , as you say , you love bikes and riding , i do too , however it turns out very late , but i love riding .
I wish , and believe me not just wishing, I’ll try my best to being in the situation which i can be there near you , to learn more and spend more time with you if you accept ! Sincerely your student, soheyl
A very useful technique I have recently acquired for anticipating a possible emergency braking situation is as follows
Pull your front brake lever in that 10 or 12 millimetres until the pads are barely touching the front disc.
By doing this, it overcomes the tendency to “stab” the front brake in an emergency.
Try this yourself you will feel the difference
Great content Dave and always well presented. I have learned so much from you. Thanks heaps mate from Australia.
I dig it! But if you’re always braking until you’re on the throttle, you will always be at least in this position (with the pads touching rotors).
@@VState60 I am not sure you understood what I meant. I only use the technique in a possible emergency situation such as somebody coming up to turn in front of you. By just barely touching the pads on the rotor it eliminates the tendency to stab the front brake giving you better control for a safe stop if necessary.
Agree. When anything looks dicey up ahead rapidly bring the brake lever to the point where the pads are just touching the rotors and hold it there. That way you reduce your reaction time and are set up to squeeze on the brakes properly.
What kept going through my head when I took a turn too fast off the highway was, "Never use the brakes in a turn!" Six broken ribs and shoulder later, I wish that poor advice hadn't been drilled into my head and I had known better.
Great review. Thanks for your consice PRESENTATION
Always replace the paper towels... Never leave the empty roll...
This is absolutely correct. If you ride long enough, you will run into every (what to do when) scenario and it's exceptions! A great no nonsense advise!
Never use the throttle against the front brake is great advice, but should not be confused to mean release the throttle then grab the brake.
When I approach a corner, I ease off the throttle while gently squeezing the front brake. Basically as I roll off the throttle, I roll my index and middle finger (that have been covering the front brake) down against the brake lever. This 1. Loads the front end as I pull in the slack of the front lever, and 2. Gradually eases the force from the rear tire into the front braking wheel as braking increases.
I end up at ZERO throttle pretty quickly, but this helps keep the ride smooth.
I love this advice, and have shared to my children ages 30 and 21. I don't know everything.
I too roll off the throttle and right onto the front brake, but a lot of programs are teaching that trail braking is being on the throttle and the front brake at the same time.
Great advice as usual. One of if the scariest feeling on track was accidentally leaving the throttle partially open while getting on the brakes.
No kidding!! It's extremely unnerving.
It’s that fancy BMW auto-blipper you’re rocking, Cuban!
What happens there exactly? Rear tire gets loose?
Critical points mentioned with the right conflicting points. YCRS snippets trickled down, definitely makes the one that much safer. Thank you Dave.
I use the rear break (only) in a corner all the time (not always of course but quite often) . I find it really useful if you realize half way through the corner that you've chosen the wrong line , (which I'm prone to do) .
Eventually you’ll pay a price for using your rear in a corner, I hope I’m wrong.
Stabing the front brake for stoppie. Stab the rear to slide. Stunt riding. But learning to slide the rear can be useful. Front brake and throttle.... smokie burn out! Also forces the front suspension to compress. Back more to stunt riding.
I don't know yet how to ride a sports bike. But I learned how to ride a small displacement bike back when I was at 6th grade. Not familiar with those lean angles and stuffs, but I was doing everything you said subconsciously, except on the part where I could use my front brakes when slowing down on mid-corners because I always thought that it would be risky and the counter-steering part. Well, it just shows that riding a moped, small displacement bikes is different from riding a sports bike. Thank you for the tips.
Thank you for these great lessons on riding here in the Philippines especially in the provinces we have to motorcycle track to run on instead we use the streets and so far I have used your techniques on my travels and enjoyed the ride as for the quote I saw in a rider's vest..."It's not the destination but the Ride". Thanks so much guys!
Nice talk, as usual, but I disagree on one issue. Counter-steering is effectively the ONLY way to turn a bike. Weighting the inside peg will do nothing (*). It only serves the purpose of making riders feel confortable with what they’re doing by fooling themselves.
On generic terms, a center of mass can only change its velocity (it’s a vector, so, it has a direction which can change too) if an external force is applied. Aside from “wind”, there are only two external forces acting on a motorcycle, which are the reaction forces of the tarmac acting on the tyres contact patches. Nothing else can change the center of mass velocity direction, or, if you prefer, the center of mass position on the bike/rider’s reference.
You can lean the bike more by applying more of your weight on the inside peg, but by doing that without changing the external forces, the rider’s body will shift to the opposite side by such an amount that the center of mass of the bike/rider set will remain in the exact same position. And keep in mind that the trajectory of the bike is dictated by the angle of the center of mass of the set bike/rider with respect to the tyre contact patches.
Internal forces will do nothing for you.
(*) might need some further clarification…..
Yeah I think that might be the ONE hilarious Keith Code demo- He’s got a guy off the motorcycle-both feet standing on the left peg-hands off the bars- Steering head doesn’t move-bike doesn’t turn. Peg-weighting does nothing at all-or does it? The one thing it DOES DO is it gets your ass up off the seat a little bit- And that actually can be a little advantageous to counter steering- Especially in a really tight sequence of S-turns or the chicane as he describes. If your body is sort of pivoting along with your steering-it can seem a lot more natural when getting through the hard stuff. Does peg-weighting, in and of itself, initiate any kind of lean on the bike or maybe make the rear dig in a little harder?- No the responder is CORRECT- it doesn’t do fuck-all without the corresponding steering inputs.
Adding weight to 1 foot is for bikes where your feet are under you. Think of sumo fighters. They put all weight on 1 leg and the other leg comes up. You do kind of the same thing but with out lifting your leg. It helps with a couple of things.
1, when you do this you tend to lift your but off or nearly off the seat, which helps being able to switch center of gravity/position on the bike.
2, it helps move more weight lower on the bike and center the weight longitudinal/front to back. (Your weight is on the pegs not the seat)
3, this really only works when leaning. If you do this straight up and down your upper body compensates to keep the bike vertical.
If you lift your but slightly off the seat and practice full lane side to side swerves the way you normally would but add weight transfer to your feet it will happen quicker. Using your weight on the pegs is for very aggressive riding but can help in on road oh shit situations if you have practice with the technique.
@@lovepcgaming2335 Sumo fighters are using external forces when they put all weight on 1 leg. Those are ground reaction forces. You do not have that on a bike, unless you use your feet against the ground.
1. You can not change the center of gravity of the set "you and your bike" without using external forces. You can change your center of gravity though, and the bike will change its CG so that the CG of the set "you and your bike" will remain exactly the same.
2. If you put all your weight on the pegs, instead of the bike sit, that does not change yours or the bike's CG.
3. I don't get what you mean.....
You can lift your but all you want if that "makes you feel" or "adds to your confidence" in swerving. Using your weight on the pegs does absolutely nothing in terms of physics. But I understand if it helps your mind......
What you are aiming for when you press a peg or press a knee against the tank or whatever (I've heard it all), is the same an astronaut without nothing to push against would try to do to reach his spacecraft 2 meters away. He's dead, but he will make a lot of movements before acknowledging it......
What I mean by this last sentence is that the astronaut can extend his arms and whatever. But there is no way he'll be able to change his CG position. He has no access to external forces to change his CG position, therefore he''ll never reach the spacecraft. He will die 2 meters away from the safety of his spacecraft.
Started riding track days about the same time I got my license!
Best thing I’ve ever done, understanding you motorcycle in extreme conditions will save your life one day!
All the “don’t’s is something you use on the track all the time, from trailbraking, turning your front to where you want to go in mid corner by accelerating with massive lean angle….
Countersteering etc…
Thing is, you never need to ride at that level in traffic, not worth it, but to have it in your back could definitely save you some day when things go south
Always good to have this kind of advice before I go crazy this summer! Thanks ☺️
@6:00 there’s a pretty popular ‘coach’ who I’ve seen speak on TH-cam and to crowds of folks who teaches this-I disagree with about 90% of what he teaches and I hope this was directed at him 😂
Another great video! The "ends the anticipation" line was hilarious!
I very respectfully disagree with the brake throttle never overlaping. Maybe on the track where you can clearly see your radius and exit but, IMHO, on unknown mountain roads full of blind curves, maintenance throttle along with maintenance front brake provides wanted tension throughout the drivetrain so nothing upsets suspension. Then smooth modulation of the front brake provides adequate variable for the turn. What if it's a long sweeping blind turn and your satisfied with your speed and release the front brake only to find you have to re-administer it if the turn tightens up, or a deer jumps out. Isn't it best to have that pad bedded lightly to the rotor and your fingers 1/3 lever in when bambi jumps out? I worded this matter of factly but I am asking, because discovering this was one of my biggest breakthroughs.
I would agree, however, that as one is lightly increased the other should be lightly decreased
I agree regarding braking under maintenance throttle on curvy mountain roads. Applying light brake pressure, maybe 5% or so, compresses the front fork and increases the front contact patch. Letting go of the throttle mid-corner to apply brakes can cause the bike to tip forward suddenly.
No one taught me how to ride, other than my dad jumping out in front of me when I was 12 making sure I could brake. He was an idiot.
I ride a 145 hp, 650 lb wet weight bike at high speed on unfamiliar back roads. That means decreasing radius turns are common. And fun (or the end of your day).
I STRONGLY suggest all motorcyclists find the nearest gravel road. With curves. Ride it slowly at first only using gentle inputs on all controls. Go slowly. Then, gradually test the limits of grip (this works best with a beater bike, but if you learn to recognize what loss of grip feels like, you’ll be fine). Either way, if/when you fall, physics gives you the lessons you need.
Then, and only then, use what you learned when street riding. You will have learned what it feels like when you are on the bleeding edge of traction, and know what to do to not get that close again. As an added benefit, knowing all that, you can become VERY fast on road courses. I didn’t go that direction, and never ride over 9/10ths.
Be safe out there!
Such a great video refresher of those key things to keep us safe. Thank you for all your videos do to help us.
You can overlap the throttle with the front or rear brake whenever you’re going really slow in traffic to help keep you from needing to put your feet down or you can get a Rekluse automatic centrifugal clutch and put it in your hayabusa and solve the problem FOREVER!!! I can’t stress enough how awesome the automatic clutch is. It would be especially amazing for new riders too because you can still use the clutch as normal or you can just be super easy on the throttle and not use the clutch. I love mine. (I’m not shilling for rekluse, just giving new riders an idea for a good option to try and make their ride better).
I only “stab” the back brake…when I’m showing off in dirt or gravel. (Don’t tell anybody!)
Kids love skids!
@@CanyonChasers lol! Exactly.
Great information! NEVER applying brakes while cornering probably originates from riding my BSA Victor. The brakes were the original "adventure motorcycle ".
I had an old Bonneville with double leading shoe brakes. I don't know if the brakes or the bias ply tires were worse.
Loved the video, loved Ducati as example... keep it honest, very cool!
Yeah, I've definitely dragged stock pegs on an RC390 😅
I always assumed the reason the front brake was put with the throttle because you aren't supposed to use them at the same time.
I usually don't start breaking until I'm in a corner, lol. Trail braking is my comfort zone. But then again, I used to race professionally.. an easy thing to remember is the brake pressure is an inverse relationship to lean angle. The more you lean the less you brake, the less you lean the more you brake. If you're going to ask me "how much can you break at a given point during a turn?" I'm going to say, go to the track and find out. You won't know the limit until you crash, but you can get very close to the limit without crashing at the track. If you want to be as fast as you can possibly be, then crash. It's how you learn the fastest, lol
Thanks for another informative and helpful video
As usual excellent tips, thanks for that
I love your tool setup the leds look awesome
Valuable information as usual, thanks so much.
This is exactly what I was thinking about before you uploaded it 👍🏼 Thank you 💯 can you reiterate one for track riding when you into that intermediate class pushing pace into the race class?
Great information as always. One of the rules I have always broken comfortably has been rolling the throttle on slowly once my corner is set. I trust my tires. I’m still engaged in lean and I’m trail breaking and I start rolling on the fuel.
Right. If we're comfortable with our speed and direction, but not quite ready to go back to the gas and take away lean angle, maintenance throttle is the tool. But I probably would encourage you to not brake and maintenance throttle simultaneously. :)
Thanks for addressing resuming braking in the middle of a corner; it seldom is on TH-cam motorcycle channels. But I find myself getting grabby with the front brake. During this period that I am learning to go easier on the front brake in that situation, I use engine braking with the clutch 'cause it's easier to finesse the clutch than the front brake. People will say you're burning out the transmission or clutch, but I'll take that chance. Just be aware you will want to be in a higher gear than usual, because the engine is gonna start screaming.
I'd encourage you to continue to focus on the front brake. We're not especially worried about wear, but you have significantly more control with your front brake. You can add and subtract small amounts of pressure for incredible precision. When engine braking, what do we do if we need to slow even more? Add more coast?
People dont realize how smooth you need to be until you start hitting the limits of group on the track or when riding in the wet. 1mm of throttle on cold tires in the wet or on the limit can high side you on a big bike.
I use front brake to shorten wheel base in corners to contribute lean angle. I use throttle to maintain speed while doing this. So I disagree with not overlapping these controls since I have those overlapping goals.
Great video as always. Thanks for all you do.
I would strongly discourage that practice. The best riders in the world all say to never overlap the two controls.
@@CanyonChasers i know. but since i don't know their reasons, i can't judge their advice. the term "trail braking" is overbroad, in part because it assumes i'll finish using one control before applying the other. note that if i had a "suck the front tube up a bit to shorten the wheelbase" control i would be using that instead of the front brake in this situation. i wrote a similar comment on the video in which you explained why the anti-dive feature of BMW Telelever wasn't much to your liking.
meanwhile i'll go on enjoying your work, and thanks again for that.
Shortening wheelbase does not increase lean angle. Braking might compress the front suspension, decrease the rake angle and trail, but only if it actually results in deceleration. If you are using the throttle against the brake "to maintain speed" you are not decelerating so there is no change in geometry.
Great video...excellent delivery which was appreciated!!!
I was always a little uneasy about using the front brake while entering or rounding a curve untill I read about trail braking. When trail braking lightly through a turn the motorcycle feels more stable and feels like it wants to go through the turn without being forced too.
That's exactly right! A little front brake pressure settles things down as that's how our bikes were designed to work. 😎
@@CanyonChasers That is not what was said in the video. All that was said in the video was that you can, with care, use the brakes in a turn, but it is something you should normally avoid. Riding on a track, braking hard on the approach to a turn, front suspension compressed; trail braking gradually reduces weight transfer due to braking as centripetal force takes over. It minimizes disruption of the front suspension. It's not really appropriate to the way a bike is ridden on public roads.
@@roadracingrelics I was always told not to touch the front brake in a curve period. If you need to slow down straighten the bike first. There's not always time to do that. Going to fast into an unfamiliar curve, finding debris in the road or approaching a slow car around a curve can be safely and smoothly dealt with. If you already have your pads lightly touching the brake disk a little more pressure can be safely applied to slow you in a curve. Applying a little front brake in a curve is not going to automatically cause you to crash like I was lead to believe. If you have the slack out of t system you can smoothly add a little more pressure and safely slow in a curve. No fingers on the lever might cause it to be applied too fast and harder than intended and cause an accident. Just my opinion from my experience. Still learning with 40 years in the saddle.
The MSF used to teach, I assume they still do, that if you have to brake in a turn you can either get the bike vertical as quickly as possible and then use maximum braking or you can continue turning, applying progressively more brake pressure as the bike becomes upright. Slightly dragging the brakes in a turn isn't trail braking. Trail braking is about managing the transition from hard braking, on the approach to a turn, and hard turning as experienced on a race track.
@@roadracingrelics ok. I'm a brake dragger and not a trail braker.
I agree with everything but I do want to mention that Trail braking to load the front forks through a corner is a common technique, it helps with traction and cornering stability and uses front brake and throttle
Except not at the same time. Trail braking is about braking and does not involve any throttle, despite what some other folks might be saying.
Thank you, great video and info.
about braking, always brake graduatly, touch your rear brake when front brake is not enough and you are good to go. Also think a head.
Excellent as always!
Finesse. I've found that it helps a lot to have a nice comfy pair of gloves. Some gloves, you can't feel anything. No feedback for those small decimal points of control. Winter riding compounds the problems as your fingers can get a bit numb. So you have to back off, right? Anyway, I've tried different gloves and my favourite were Nankai. Hard to get now.
Great information, I constantly try to learn and wonder about this daily.
Excellent video. Thanks
Great video. I miss riding. Haven't ridden since 2014. Even it's been that long I still have buying another motorcycle in the back of my mind. Every now and then I look at cycletrader and go to my local Honda dealership.
Why so long, tho? Hopefully not due to injuries.
@@patrickmba7638 no injuries even while I was riding, knock on wood, mostly just life in general, moved to another state, and starting a family. My wife isn't against me getting one but when I do it'll be just my toy on two wheels.
@@JW-fm2cy 👍
Good advice and as you say stay adaptive and be prepared for the unexpected. Ride well and stay safe 🤓 💙
Pushing the front brake against the Throttle sounds like a pretty Sick Burn out …. Tell me I’m lying 😂😂
Indeed it is!
I make a conscious effort to brake all the "rules". Just a little when I am sure the consequence will not be very bad.
I could be wrong, but I personally think it makes a person a better rider for a lot of reasons. A rider should know exactly what there bike is and isn't capable of. And it gives a rider more options and a greater skillset.
"Never push the throttle against the front brake." I wouldn't be surprised if that is why they are both controlled with almost opposite inputs of the right hand. You roll your hand back to throttle up, and you roll your hand forward to reach the front brake.
I use the front brake mid turn, but I learned to be smooooth on it
Great vid. glad iv been doing all these naturally. Top Vid. gives me peace of mind.
Good video. Now don't think of all of this once while riding! haha
I really like your closing comments. For me that’s THE take-home message.
Me too actually. I was pretty happy with how that part came out.
if you remember my comments in a previous video you know I love this one: Plastic Brain! key of life
Ha! yes!
I ride big ADV bikes. Trail breaking is a thing, and damn useful both on and off road.
YES!! It’s not scary or advanced. It makes riding more fun!!
I found that knowing the bike im riding, breaking and acceleration came intuitively much like it did as a kid on a bmx.
Love your videos. Can't stop watching them! Thank you! What is your T-shirt?
It's a riding joke. "this is not a ham" i.e. don't be a ham-fisted rider.
I realized that I had a bad habit when riding in canyon corners. I was surprised to see me using both trail braking and throttle only when turning right. So sometimes it was dangerous. My bike is naked. I put my elbows under the handlebars and it got a little better. I need more practice...
Never touch the front brake while doing a u-turn :(
Seriously ... Just lean "Moar"? Is that what just flashed up on my screen? I had to look more than once but yep, there it was. 😁
Another great video guys. Excellent advice and great passion as always.
Certainly haven't mastered the technique, but I found I could get insanely tight u-turns, hairpins, etc if I kept a little front brake applied while rolling on the throttle. This compresses both front and rear suspension and on some bike geometries will shorten the wheelbase significantly.
Yeah. Please don't do that. The rear brake will work better, with a better result and less chance of tipping over.
@@CanyonChasers this is just trail braking, have you heard of Bret Tkacs? He has a good video explaining in detail.
And remember... The streets and roads are not controlled environments. On a track you can get away with many things and not have to deal with hazards commonly present on streets/roads. Have fun responsibly so you can keep doing it for many years.
Love your videos mate ,helps education and recapping, keep up the good work, Ride safe from the UK 🇬🇧 🇺🇸
Hitting the brake and throttle (in very specific situations on the track) is beneficial. Only the best need apply though.
Thank you!
As always.great Great videos!!! Thank you
the limit of lean of the bike and rider together (CG of total mass) is 45° on a curve.
Unless your tires can grip with more than 1g, at 45° the force holding you down on the asphalt and the centripetal force trying to slide your bike sideways are equal. You go any faster you slide out, like a roofer trying to stand on a steep roof with street shoes.
Most sport and racing bikes will lean more than 45° without scraping the frame or pegs and you can get in trouble fast. The problem is nothing scrapes so you get NO warning that you have passed 45° and are about to lose it.
Leaning your body weight inside the turn keeps the bike more upright, and keeps IT from hitting more than 45°, but it also side loads your tires more (the wheels are no longer vertical with the center of force on them) and if you have spokes you are side loading the spokes - not good.
Cruiser bikes by their design will scrape the floorboards or pegs or frame well before reaching 45° lean. If they take a corner too fast leaning your body weight into the curve might allow you to stay on the road, or in your lane, without scraping the frame and sliding out... but if you are taking corners that fast on a cruiser bike sooner or later you will side out, or hit something in your lane because you are riding beyond the limit of your vision in the curves.
I want to point out that you can use brake and throttle at the same time in case you are rev matching during down shifting .
And
You can add throttle at tunns if you are counter leaning (ofcourse not 100%).
in the first - thats not pushing the rear tire against the front - your not driving the rear into the front.
in the second - You can, but thats extremely risky. Counterleaning requires even more lean, and uses up even more grip. When accelerating while artificially adding lean you can run out of grip very quickly.
@@CanyonChasers Counter leaning can reduce the chance of low siding because less lateral force and more vertical force is applied on the tyre because the center of mass is closer to the point of contact between tyre and load.
@adityasubhedar9556 nope. You are ignoring centripetal force and tire deformation.
Lean equals risk. But lean is how we turn. The only times we want to use counter leaning is at low speeds when we have lots of grip. Outside of that specific scenario we mostly want to avoid it.
@@CanyonChasers context is very important in this case. You're right, when you lean with the bike the risk of crashing increases and you should not risk loosing the rear by using too much throttle.
Not disputing, but anecdotally, and iirc, Troy Corser would hit the brakes and the gas in the corners on the early Aprilia RSV to get enough stiffness from the bike.
very nice instruction
Sir more videos pls
I have so many ideas written down, enough to keep me going for a few years before I'd even have to add to it.
Thanks!
Precious advices..👌Thanks...