About nadu. He really is that strong. I once took control of it for only one trun, and despite my deck not being build around it (orzov life gain) i managed to ramp 5 lands and draw 3 cards in a single turn which made it impossible for my opponents to come back. Over all im glad he got banned
NGL shit like that makes me feel significantly less bad about just building a direct counter to someone's deck. Don't limit how you interact with the board and plan to be interacted with. No need to not just play mass land destruction and just stop people from drawing a dumb number of cards.
I am entirely in favor of the new bans. Dockside had to go. Nadu was the new paradox engine issue Less fast mana is fine Black lotus is banned everywhere so jeweled lotus being banned was a good call
Do feel sorry for them as they're one of the few decks that actually lost synergy with the ban. Most decks with crypt just lost something generically good.
Glad to here you guys accurately describe and understand the power the sol ring and mana crypt. You guys are some of the best mtg creators and this really solidifies it for me.
So I DO see crypt and lotus at my lgs, we have a solid 4 to 6 pubstompers each week. How do I remove Voja turn 2 or 3? They're not going to be "just as strong", you've literally halved the number of "sol rings" in the format.
It is an interesting ban philosophically. Because these 4 bans feel directly linked to power level, which all of the previous bans (except Flash) supposed have not. Which is very new for the rules committee. It will be interesting to see how this changes things into the future.
I agree 110% with what you said about casual tables being steamrolled by UG Value Pile. Literally my least favorite type of deck to play against. I'm forced to spend all my removal just to stop that one player from snowballing out of control, and then they usually have more value pieces than I have removal pieces and win anyway. And the other players at the table are usually no help either.
Play a combo deck. Just win out from under them until they have to play interaction to deal with you. Or just beat them to death (in game obviously). Big stompy and a big stompy tribe like Eldrazi can kill a player pretty quick
@@ian_lambert-knightso... your solution is either play a deck style they may not enjoy (and may have so spend a lot of money on making) or... buy an Eldrazi deck, which are renound for being expensive, right, smart idea, you just recommended spending money or spending money
@@ChimneyCrab737 Most importantly you can build a cheap combo deck. Plenty of combos cost less than a dollar per card and offer plenty of resiliencey. While a few cEDH combos can get expensive (Lion's eye diamond) most of them have budget alterations. I never said go play an Eldrazi deck specifically. I said Big Stompy 🦶. Any big stompy tribe is a good example but I picked Eldrazi. Next if you don't enjoy a fast combo deck or a Big Stompy deck then don't expect to be able to beat a value pile without having a resource advantage. And if you think you need to pile money into Eldrazi you are mistaken. While many of their most powerful tools are expensive there is more than enough support to play Budget Eldrazi. So in conclusion if you want to beat a value pile you have to go taller or faster or out value. While magic isn't free I personally strongly support proxies and think that if a certain type of deck is troubling it is worth brewing up a solution. On a small side note you can play land destruction and stax too. That also probably beat a value pile UG deck. Might get you beat up but it probably works. Lots of ways to lock someone out of the game too with stax.
Hey Elk, you’ve mentioned the Fractured Identity/Nine Lives line and wanting a commander for it. I have that combo in Queza, Augur of Agonies, which also opens up the combo to work with Lich’s Mastery and Phage the Untouchable!
@@33elk I actually run this combo in my Zedruu deck as well, the ability to give away Nine Lives at 8 stacks is a great alternative if you don't have the mana or pieces for the rest of the combo in hand.
There's a guy at my locals who runs a The First Sliver deck that's 90 something lands. I don't remember the exact combo but it was something along the lines of Cast commander, Cascade into a Tibalt's Tricker which counters The First Sliver and then "cascades" into some other cards that lead to a Protean Hull combo.
I think the recent bans would be a great way for people to get into cube. Still want to use those mana crypts and dockside’s? A high power cube is a great home for them!
Sporogenic infection is a lot deeper then I thought. It's like a super edict. It works even if an opponent has two creatures because you can force them to sac one of them.
I took apart my Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer deck to build her back-up from ground zero for Duskmourn. Instead of focusing on Morph I focus on Manifest in order to cheat creatures with negative EtB effects into play. For example, the (literal) hidden commander of the deck is Phage, the Untouchable who is snuck onto the battlefield face-down and only flips up for the player deathtouch before combat damage. Other creatures include things like Phyrexian Dreadnaught (a 1 cmc 12/12 trampler). Since Manifest is the most important mechanic in the deck all the new cards from Duskmourn, Murders at Karlov Manor, and Assassin't Creed are incredibly useful.
I would love to see this list! I’ve been feeling very down on the morph build of my kadena deck recently, and I’m excited to try some of the new duskmourn tech
Great bans by the RC. I own all these cards already and it feels good to be king and have them in your opening hand, but it feels way worse to lose when your opponent has a nuts opener.
I personally agree they could’ve gone harder on the bans. I think banning commanders that don’t directly ruin the experience and are just powerful isn’t correct, so they did good on that. I personally don’t like playing into ad naus decks, or well made simic value(like kinnan or sometimes derevi who is bant but close enough) I run tons of interaction but blue is way stronger than every other color. My best deck is an orzhov deck who plays at extremely high power Casual. So I just can’t counter major wins. Silence, Orim’s chant, Aven interrupter, and ranger captain can only do so much.
@@Blacklodge_Willy the line between cEDH and high power casual is very blurry and people have differing definitions. For me, cEDH is a subset of high power EDH decks where the commander is chosen for a specific reason and is considered to be better than any other commander in that color set for your strategy (so you don't run Jarad as your golgari commander because there are better golgari commanders for sacrificing crearures), and also that the lists are optimized to a meticulous level. You playtest until you find the best combination and amount of lands and everything else.
@@MK-13337he thinks blue is way stronger than any other color. He's definitely not playing high power casual. But being in favor of more bans makes me think he doesn't belong to either format
Nadu definitely feels like a stray bullet. It's kinda like Tergrid IMO, where the players would police themselves on playing it because it sucks, and before long you just don't see it at casual tables. If there was a cEDH-specific ban in this list, Nadu would be it. Dockside should've been banned years ago. I have nothing else to say here lol. I've never been a fan of Jeweled Lotus from the start. Such an egregious design on WotC's behalf that's transparently about selling packs and not about a healthy format. Mana Crypt seems a BIT odd considering it's always been around and other similar pieces get to stay, but I'm not heartbroken about it either. There are other good fast mana pieces left, but I think that the consistency lost from Mana Crypt and the other two is going to slow down EDH, at least somewhat. To say I'm excited is an understatement lol. Overall, these bans seem fitting for the health of the format, and it's nice to see the RC doing something for once. CEDH is getting the brunt of the ban, but meta shakeups are super fun! Who knows where the sub-format will go from here? PS: To answer Trinket's question: The groups I play with will be largely unaffected. I personally have a Crypt and Dockside that I wasn't using (should've sold them long ago, RIP) because I don't like playing at super high power like that. Dockside will definitely be the most impactful ban for the folks I play with, Jeweled Lotus secondarily. While it's true that these bans won't affect Simic Value Pile.deck and won't stop pubstompers from pubstomping, I think the bans are a step in the right direction. Ultimately, EDH bans don't make or break the format, its the player's attitudes.
Nadu is definitely higher in term of causing a problematic gameplay pattern than Tergrid. Needed a ban, and besides as you said : Simic value pile has loads of other choices...
The issue is that even in the 99, Nadu accidentally does obnoxious things. I reanimated Nadu in my Rakdos high-power deck, and did the "Nadu thing" because I just happened to have Lightning Greaves in play.
@@simonteesdale9752 Yeah, should've said in my OG post but I totally stand by Nadu's ban lol. Wholly deserved and best to do it sooner than later (unlike Crypt...)
Overall my playgroup was minimally affected as only a few of us had these cards, however I did bring up the conversation to just buck the banned list altogether. Currently floating the idea of just having Power 9 banned and everything else legal
No, Other cards need to be banned for multiple reasons. The only card that was banned that was undeserving was Jeweled Lotus. Jeweled Lotus isn't a problem itself. I would have been much happier to see Lion's eye diamond and or oracle banned. Both are far more problematic and represent a frankly format wide problem.
@@danthewafflelord3059 That is the best way to make the worst format. Every deck is just a time vault deck with some extra combos for spice. What does any deck do? It's a grixis shell with additional colors running tinker time vault and also thoracle consult and also reanimating griselbrand (with lutri as companion because no cost to running it). At least that is the winning deck at any NBL edh game I have seen.
I agree with rhystic study, the two problems I see are first, it is played a lot more, and it affects tons more people, some may even not know about the bans and play it. But the bigger thing is that if you go, "lets ban rhystic study and remora", then what about esper sentinel, then what about smothering tithe, then what about pollywog prodigy or something, and it would have a lot more of a ripple effect.
For everyone saying to use rule 0 instead of banning stuff... stop it. Rule 0 works BETTER with bans. It shouldnt be the first thing that you do for the game. It should be the way people play golos when its banned... not "Hey can yall just not use counterspells?" it should be the LAST RESORT. Not the beginning. The banlist should be a line. it should be a statement. If you dont have a line and you are just saying for me to rule 0 EVERYTIME... Theres no reason to play with randos. i agree with you guys. Rystic and mystic remora absolutely should be here also.
The argument to use Rule 0 goes against the idea of a banlist. The banlist was meant to be a signpost of 'These types of cards aren't fun to play'. These bans target cEDH and high-power, not low to mid play. The RC needs to remove the banlist and rebuild it completely after making a dedicated cEDH RC and banlist. All current bans are just cards the RC has played against too much and/or they've lost to. ThOracle not even being MENTIONED is an insult to the format, while the reason for banning Mana Crypt is the SAME REASON FOR A SOL RING BAN. The only reason the RC refuses to ban Sol Ring is because they know that would actively piss off Wizards.
Yes and no. This WAS targetted for casual. Its been 10 years. More and more casual players got their hands on these cards and used the in pods. In spell table i see them all the time. i will agree however with thoracle ban. its kinda dumb that its not banned but coalition victory is @@TheAngelRaven
You're talking as if these game pieces have no value. It's one thing if these are cheap cards, but wotc sold many sets and boxes based on these chase cards. To then ban them especially when the cards have gotten reprints is wotc selling snake oil
I don't agree with the "getting rid of triple digits cards makes commander cheaper." The next best ramp card will get more expensive because it is the next best thing. It is just the Magic finance works. It will be Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Mox Opal, etc. I agree with everything else that you have said but that point. I actually compare this ban with the Caw Blade era in standard. After Jace and Stoneforge we banned, Jace was hitting $120 (something unheard of back then) and SFM around $40. Standard was popular back then and many quit playing because of that ban. People's wallets do matter in tcgs. Dockside was on the black list already so people may have expected that. MC and JLo were not there though. In a non-rotating and static format as edh, this ban just decreases trust in commander staples. I'm not talking about second market. I'm talking about player's wallets.
cEDH is proxy friendly. Paying a lot for cards is inherently a risky investment. Staples are the most at risk for bans after all. Buyer’s remorse isn’t really worthy of sympathy in this case.
@maximillianhallett3055 sympathy and respect for the consumer is what makes people comfortable with spending this kind of money in the first place. Like it or not, without whales, collectors and other big spenders, Magic would cease to exist. They are what keeps production of the game funded
Actually, banning expensive cards inherently makes the next cards cheaper, if the community sees expensive cards be banned, they are less likely to buy more overpriced cards, as a result the market will adjust to reflect what the maximum price the community is willing to pay, and as a result the highest cost of cards will go down
@@danthewafflelord3059without whales, wizards wont just sit there like a lemon and keep selling the product that the same price and allow themselves to die (I have no idea how you came to this conclusion), wizards makes a massive profit margin with magic right now, mainly because they are able to sell boxes for very high prices, and the whales are the ones who buy the vast majority of those boxes, while the rest of the community is unwilling/unable to, one the whales leave, nobody will be buying the overpriced things WotC puts out, and as a result, prices will decrease slowly until the remaining players are happy with the new price, and are willing to take the place of the whales
5-color Kaho is exactly what I needed to hear. I have a brew I’ve been wanting to flesh out which is 5C spellseeker but now I’m adding kaho as the secret partner commander.
I relate to the quick deck turnover, that’s why the decks that stick around for me are the ones that influence how other people play more, since that makes the replays different every time
1:06:43 the Esper one does, too. It has a room card that is basically better Enchanted Evening and Ondu Spiritdancer, so when Ondu Spirit Dancer enters it copies an enchantment, but since it is an enchantment now it can copy itself, which will then do the same
I *immediately* started brewing up Iname Ad Naus after this. I'd love to check out your list at some point Trinket Mage. I've been struggling to come up with a fun mono-black commander and this is perfect. For Star Athlete I'm a fan in certain strategies. It's pretty sick in Neheb, The Eternal. I either get to blow up your thing, or I get an extra 5 mana on my next main phase on top of doming you for 5. Also good in the contexts mentioned of damage doublers/increasers or treating it like a 8/2 with menace. I think if you don't have easy/regular access to haste enabling early in the game or aren't running these other strategies that either really care about damage dealt or increase damage dealt, then it becomes a lot more "meh."
If that's true then why ban them and ruin it for those of us that do play and enjoy them in cEDH where they're not affecting causal pods? Commander is supposed to be friendly to all power levels, and you're supposed to be able to play how you want to as long as everyone at the table agrees. Now the RC just said, "This is the way you're supposed to play commander." I don't like that.
Not everyone plays battlecruiser kitchen table EDH. Just because you do, and thats the only version of the game you engage with, that does not mean its how everyone "actually" plays it.
Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but with Jeska, I think star athletes trigger that deals 5 damage if they don’t sac the permanent also triples, so that changes from 14 to 24 damage if they don’t sac and don’t block
Im not a huge fan of the Jlo/Crypt bans, but I am happy that it could cause thorn effects and blood moon to be back in a big way. Love those effects in cEDH 😅
I have a few personal restrictions i put on my decks, not inherently clear reasons just how I build my decks. -No spells that cost 0 or have alternative cost to play for 0 mana. -max 1 planeswalker -max 1 non-land seeking tutor Not rules I expect of others, just restrictions I impose on myself.
I have iname as one But it's about the commander being a 12mv so stinging study for 12 Cloudkill for 12 The hidden commander per say is Cactus Preserve a man land for 3 becomes a 12/12 so then u can greater good it and recur it or give it infect
The way you correct for Simic value pods pub stomping is to remove the stigma around playing combo decks. Simic value piles take advantage of the all-to-common rule zero around no infinite combo to craft a metagame that they can take advantage of.
I hate hate hate large power cards that are big digit prices. Very happy about these bans personally, even if they aren't going to affect my local group. And now I wait for Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora to go too. Down with generic boring value cards. And those two would effect my local group :)
Yeah Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora and Smothering Tithe are actually detrimental to the format and honestly are quite format warping because people essentially rely on those cards to do whatever they're trying to do. They treat them as auto includes which has annoyed me for a long time now. Casual Commander has gotten to the point where it's actually detrimental for you if you DON'T have them in your deck because nearly every other player has them.
@@azelia2464 It really does require you to match up, and if you don't, well you're just playing at a disadvantage most games. It's one of the reasons I don't play more often with some of my friends :(
If you think that Rhystic and Fish need to be banned I am willing to bet that your pod is the issue. Pay your taxes and learn to interact appropriately. If you counter the Rhystic etc or remove it or just pay your taxes they tend to not do much. Also if you hate "Auto include cards" don't build your deck with them. If you have other people using generic value engines and format staples to try to gain an advantage I'm sorry to tell you that there will always be a best option. If not one of those there will be something else. If you want to play a deck with a slow strategy and hate Losing to blowouts then you need to be prepared to slow everyone else down. Banning every popular card isn't the answer. Most of the banned cards needed to be banned because 1 it is very hard to interact with, 2 it is warping to the first two turns especially, 3 They lead to bad play patterns.
I'd just like to point out that the format is probably the way it is because of spells due to lack of spells like Fierce Guardianship. Guardianship doesn't hit creatures, and counter spells are "removal", which we need more playable versions of to balance EDH
RogSi is fine either way. Usually it’s too fast to really get big docksides, it doesn’t run Jeweled Lotus and it doesn’t get hit harder by Mana Crypt ban than other decks. So it was actually pretty much the biggest winner of this ban announcement because its opponents got hit much harder.
I found runo stormkirk/krorhus to be an interesting commander for land creatures, especially considering there are 2 creaturelands with all ceature types. The deck didn't end up working out all that well but it was interesting to see dimir landramp.
@@rocknrolla7288 overall, (land)cyclers are in my experience the easiest way to flip him, the real problem is gettung something worthwile to copy in play
Agree with a lot of things here, except the "you dont see a lot of mana crypts in casual". In my local meta, theres lots of people that have mana crypts, dockside, rhystic, mystic in all of their decks, while not playing actual cedh.
It's absolutely worth seeing Nadu go, though part of me was hoping I'd have him for just a bit longer. In honour of the "We designed him with Commander in mind" statement about him, I wanted to make a Nadu-build the way I like building Commander decks, which was reaching into my trunk to scrounge for cards, not dedicating a single cent to building around him actively. I ended up with what I called "Brawlic Nadu," centered on +1/+1-counters, combat tricks and fighting. Because all of these are traditionally targeting effects, I'd build my Nadu to be strong as shit, while also drawing cards and ramping on the side. Using stuff like Roiling earth to landfall into huge advantage, swinging Nadu for lethal, it was a nutty deck. I brought it to locals once and we laughed about the fact that even though I built the deck off of literal leftovers, draft-chaff and bulk, it was still able to stay at tables with constructed, dedicated decks, because Nadu was just such a brick shithouse that pumped card advantage so well, that it didn't matter if he got targeted, he'd always slip back in. Absolutely crazy card that had no right being that good and we already know that it wasn't supposed to be that way.
About both the man land deck and the secret commander, I actually built a prismatic bridge deck with a secret commander of Nissa who shakes the world. And jt was entirely built around man lands
I run Star Athlete in Auntie Blyte. You can target your own permanent to get 5 free self-inflicted damage which puts 5 counters on her. That can be enough to take somebody out with her.
I have ran into Jeweled Lotus far more frequently than Mana Crypt, but I have consumed enough commander content to make an educated judgement on its potential and power. Sucks for those people that lost money on it. 🤙🏼
Some of my favorite decks I own right now are an off color self mill Reanimator deck with Dogmeat, Ever Loyal and a Vhal, Candlelight Researcher deck that makes absurd amounts of colorless mana to pay for expensive reusable mana sink abilities. Edit: also a man land Raggadragga deck. Thanks for the reminder.
Hey trinket, if you want a cool commander for kaho, try master formed anew. You can turn her into your commander with him and have black tutors to get to her!
Honestly I don't mind the bans. As for Rhystic Studies and Mystic Remora by banning those you would just move the problem to black due to Necropotence and the enchantment that lets you pay life to draw cards. The best thing they can due for those are ban the mandatory everyone wheels, unban the hullbreacher, and encourage more draw hate outside of blue
Rhystic study or one ring wasn’t included because they weren’t looking at broken card draw, they were looking at broken mana. Probably for a new edh version or wotc product coming out soon
I think being happy that expensive cards got banned is silly in a format that is friendly to proxies. It sucks for everyone who bought these cards, which did all have recent printings and were pushed chase cards, that now are unable to play them. Price of cards is not a problem in EDH. Rule 0 is supposed to account for players managing themselves. Now that is all out of the window, and what the RC just said is, "Don't buy expensive, powerful cards because we might just ban them."
Rule 0 still accounts for players managing themselves, though? In fact, it's WAY easier to convince a pod to allow you to run a small selection of banned cards than it is to disallow a selection of otherwise legal cards from a selection of over 25 thousand. And, while, yes, it does suck that there were a bunch of people that bought these cards only to get them banned, that's... something that happens with other formats, too. Casual pods can always still allow you to play it and competitive pods (ones that follow the banlist, anyways, as many still don't follow the CRC banlist) will adjust, just like any other Constructed players do.
@@ArceusShaymin Rule 0 SHOULD account for balancing pods, and I honestly rarely have issues with this. When I do, it's not because of these cards, it's because someone overestimates their deck building abilities and calls their upgraded precon an 8.5. I've also never had a pod where someone has asked to run banned cards but I definitely have been in pods where people say, "I don't want to play against that commander" or "I don't want to play against a deck that has an infinite combo" etc. so I disagree that I or anyone else will be able to easily run these cards. Also, no pod is gonna agree to let me play these cards because it's going to increase the power level of my deck to an unfair advantage unless they also have them. And I don't want to run them in those situations, I only want to run them when my opponents also have access to them. Your argument that there are bans in other formats isn't an argument against what I said about losing value in cards. It's still bad when it happens in other formats, and it's bad here too. Yes it happens, but again, when it's happening to the chase rare cards WotC just printed, that sucks for the player base, and there's no saying that it isn't. It doesn't make me want to support the game, and it's only leading me further towards only buying proxies.
@@SDTCG I mean, I don't think people starting to proxy is bad - if anything, this incident has taught people (in an unfortunately hard way) that unless you're really committed to having a card in paper, you shouldn't invest in it. Again, it does suck, and I won't deny that part. But hopefully this will spark a more healthy discussion around proxies and hopefully shunt people who talk shit about them out of the space. I wasn't really trying to argue that point, moreso stating that it's not all doomposting. I'm also glad to hear that you have much more smooth interactions with random pods, and I'm not saying that sarcastically; sometimes I feel like I'm going insane. Because the usual LGS Rule 0 conversations I overhear involving REMOVING cards include 20 minute arguments over why their Commander isn't annoying or why this random stax piece I've never heard the name of is apparently the most unfair piece ever that shouldn't have been printed. With 400 cards in a usual pod with nigh-infinite interactions it basically becomes an unbearable game of "yeah but" that leaves little room to actually get a game in. On the other hand, any time I've ever heard people ask to play with banned cards - or done so myself - it's "Hey, can I use [X]?" Followed by a simple "Yeah, sure, we have some decks for that." or "Oh, no, we don't think our decks would be able to match that, do you have something else?" Still sucks to not get to play that deck or that piece in the deck occasionally but at least the yes or no is quick and doesn't tend to cause an argument. The idea being that a shorter lists of cards to try and "yes" at a table is much more easy to digest for both old and new players. New players will see a card that is banned from the RC and either respect that since they don't know better yet or want to see what the card does out of interest, and an older player will understand WHY those cards were banned by the RC and gauge whether or not they want to play with them from their own evaluation (even if it's faulty). From my own experience, Rule 0 conversations are always easier when talking permissiveness rather than exclusivity. Not to say you shouldn't have a discussion about both so as to be comprehensive, but generally I've found people are way less salty about allowing cards than asking others to take them out (or god forbid swap decks).
I mean, yeah? If people are going to buy cards that they know are artificially priced and inflated, then they know the risk they are taking, prices arent based on something concrete, they're based on the community's perceived value, they knew the risk and the risk showed itself this time around
@@ChimneyCrab737 every time I drive my car I'm taking a risk of getting in an accident but if I get hit by a drunk driver you wouldn't say, "You knew there was a risk when you got in the car." That's basically the argument you're making. I'm not some MtG finance bro trying make money, most of us just spent our hard earned money on a hobby we're passionate about, and now we can't use the expensive game pieces we were all sold on. Idk how you can not see that as a bad thing. Wouldn't you be mad if they banned your most expensive card?
Rhystic/Mystic and Dockside are a unit. Many players will assert that banning Dockside just makes Rog/Si better, but also that banning Rhystic/Mystic just makes Rog/Si better. Players will adapt, players will innovate, its tough to predict how things will shake out. I'm of the mind that people have just started deploying the Rog/Si gambit about basically any banning, so the same way there were individuals demanding another year of data before we ban nadu, I'm just gonna go ahead and say "we don’t have enough data yet" whenever I hear catastrophizing for the next few months.
Next question from me: What changes would you make to the rhystic keyword if you would be in charge of the prophecy set? I don’t want to talk about powering down Rhystic Study, but also to make cards like Rhystic Cave more interesting.
about unwanted remake. actually good. anyone who uses effects that put things on top of their library. wonderful. my playgroup has been getting stronger so vamp tutor, englightened, noxious revival, hall of heliods generosity,.......
I feel like Rhystic Study in commander is similar to Brainstorm in Legacy in terms of why they aren't banned, when I think commander, Rhystic Study is one of the first cards that comes to mind.
You may ban a thousand cards to make edh a Battlecruiser again, but I remember that time an that doesn't brought any new players into MTG it only brought already existing players into the Format
I’m new to mtg and commander my first game I played at LGS until then only played with some friends. Anyway first game guy in my pod played deck that dockside, mana vault, mana crypt and one ring. Did not enjoy my first few games in that pod. I’m not sad to see any of these cards go.
Cedh player here So i have swapped out Mana Crypt 😭 with Voltaic Key and the goldfishing results are positive so far. Have to learn a couple new lines, but it's kind of exciting 👍
I have a hot take which will lead into a question, Rhystic Study and to an admittedly lesser extent Mystic Remora is mostly fine in anything above low power edh. I would argue that if both of them are such a problem in the pod it is on the players who arent playing Rystic Study or Mystic Remora, to run the removal for the cards, and that is ultimately a net good for the pod and format since it promotes interaction within the game and not just durdling away in a solitaire competition until the game is over. Now I grant you this puts mono-red decks in a worse spot than before, but even in that case I think you could make the argument that the mono-red player should be politic-ing the table and making deals to remove the problem cards. My question is why does Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora differ so greatly in power and opinion, from general stax pieces, that also demand interaction and generate a lot of advantage, like Smothering Tithe, Wandering Archaic, Elesh Norn etc. Is it simply that the mana invested is too low for the pay off?
Cards shouldn't be banned based on price you're correct, its just added upside in my eyes when an inaccessible staple is banned. I don't want cards banned based solely on price.
@33elk I'm confused on the accessibility portion. If proxying is 100% doable, that makes it accessible. Sure it's not the real card and cannot be played in a tournament, I would argue 85% of players do not play in tournaments. There will be a power vacuum that will always need filling, looking at you mana vault. From what ive seen on the internet (great example, i know) the general consensus was the banning of mana crypt and jeweled lotus were not warranted. Now personally, my playgroup has chosen to ignore these bans outside of dockside and Nadu. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I respect y'alls as well. Let me know your thoughts on this.
I wonder if cEDH tables start playing Manageysir as Dockside is now banned. I mean you can also loop it and get a shit ton of mana from it. It's not the same for sure, but what alternatives are there left? or will cEDH become more of a higher power EDH now, what do you think?
Critique on the video format. I normally watch podcasts like this at work. I tend to keep the phone about 3-5 ft away from me as I work. This way I can glance over to see a card being referenced. With the current format I feel like your avatars take up too much of the screen especially as a static PNG. I recommend changing this to make the card you're referring to larger. It is the focus of the top at hand but is the smallest element of the screen. I do enjoy the show and look forward to more! I just wanted to give some feedback❤
At 40:17 I was about the answer a proud "yes" like Trinket Mage did I used to have a Captain Sisay deck that used Lin Sivvi as a secret commander, and if she was about to get exiled I used skyshroud poachers to get a riftsweeper
The bans feel off to me. For casual, Nadu just takes too long a turn for how early he can pop off. But like, that's on u if ur not on enough answers/think the turns take too long. For crypt, sure. Banworthy since its ring but 0 mana, but most casuals don't own real copies. JLo: only works in commander (by itself). Keep it legal. Extortionist: outside of blink/clone combos, perfectly fine since it scales with how well u opponent's are doing. (Same with jeskas will and geyser.)
My awesome mono black colour Cedh deck that depended on Mana Crypt is now unplayable. I’m looking at alternatives atm, because of the ban list. Sad to see variety be killed for cedh. Will listen this video later.
If WotC banned Sol Ring, what would've happened to all the commander products that are still being sold and have this card? Yes, banned cards will continue to be printed and put in packs, but packs weren't meant to be pre-determined, unlike commander decks, and Sol Ring is present in pretty much every commander deck. I think at this point there's just nothing Wizards can do with this card, banning it would bring too many consequences that would be too hard to deal with. sorry if I missed a comment with similar thoughts, but I would love to hear opinions on that topic!
It's hilarious hearing about needing to give Star Athlete haste is a major downside like red doesn't have 3,011 ways to give it to all their creatures as a static effect.
For Mana Crypt I feel the real issue isn't so much if its stronger/weaker than Sol ring but really more from a consistency standpoint. Free 2 colorless mana with crypt can set you a lot farther ahead than a sol ring with the proper turn 1, leading to a situation where you have powered out an end game threat or multiple end game threats over the first three turns of the game before most decks hit their 2-3 mana for removal (assuming it's even in hand), compared to sol ring where assuming it's not a turn 1 ancient tomb you'll have at most 4 mana before land drop turn 2... compared to crypt's potential 7. It creates situations where there are just non-games where the game is over turn 1 at non-cedh tables... which kind of the main target demographic of the format.
Actually compounding on this, just kind of hit me later on, there's ANOTHER reason that they article doesn't even touch on. The RC talks about explosive turn two plays with turn 1 being setup and the only reason they're not banning sol ring being that it's the face of the format but honestly I think there is a bit of a stronger defense for sol ring than that. Colors. Turn 1 crypt leaves you with your land for turn meaning you can play any 3 drop card requiring a single color pip before anyone else has land down if you're going first. Jeweled lotus applies this same concept but allowing you to play your 4 drop commander turn 1 before anyone even has land down. Turn 1 sol ring uses you colored mana to pay into it, leaving your ONLY options as 1-2 drop colorless spells and artifacts, which unless you're running a purely colorless or artifact heavy deck that will have a high density of those types of cards, your ONLY option for sol ring is signet, talisman, sword of the animist, boots, greaves, insert 2 drop artifact of your choice. Most decks aren't built around that kind of start, making the turn 1 sol ring even less likely to pop off than the other two even with it being technically fast mana.
I'm with TM on this: It will consolidate power in blue farm and won't cure pubstomping in casual. To even hope to cure pubstomping, players need to grow a backbone and advocate for themselves. If you really don't want to play against lockdown stax or hard control, you need to state that outright. Don't let people push you around. This is not to say "be inflexible" or play "my way or the highway", but simply to not let yourself be a door mat for someone to wipe their dirty boots on.
I wish wizards would stop putting second commanders in the precons. I think if they took out the secondary commanders they could focus the precons more towards the face commander which would "buff" the decks and make them feel better since they don't have this split identity when they are built towards both.
It's an insane take that "The current CEDH meta is revolving around Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora and the only competition to that was dockside, so banning dockside is bad." If your meta is able to be minimised to two decks fighting it out because of 3 cards - the three cards are the issue. The only thing I take away from this is that either Rhystic or Mystic should have also been banned to allow other decks and a more varied meta to emerge. Glad you mention that in the video.
Trying to affect casual tables with a banlist is a lost cause of a goal. They should just ban for the top level. If they get cedh into a good diverse format with few true staples... then most any casual pod can just look upward to fix their problems. Stax ruining your games? It's not busted in cedh because they play X cards or strategies. Try adding those. Simic value destroying the table? It'd not bustedbin cedh because it hard loses to combo. Add a combo deck or two to your pod. And so on. But if something is busted at the top level, then there's no clear way for casual tables to deal with it. It's just a problem that trickles for ever down.
exactly; the RC is trying to essentially ban "assholes who pubstomp" but as long as there are powerful cards and as long as there are new players who dont want to upgrade their precons there will always be pubstomping
Loved the bans. Unbanning the original moxen would be *terrible* and would just make 5c miserable to face while punishing mono. Would hate to see Rhystic Study banned, but would understand it.
I'm fine with the nadu ban because of how dominate the deck is and especially how long the turns are. I hate the other three bans because of cedh and it pushing blue decks even further into the lead. the committee has said previously that command is a social format and talking with your playgroup will resolve issues about power levels and what kind of game you are generally looking to play. So with that in mind why ban them at all, because me personally I have seen these cards played outside of cedh twice, and one time was a random pubstomper new to our shop. But he also came in with gae's cradle and went infinite on turn 4 vs me and some precons. This is a big caviot of me being a big pusher of even fewer bans on the ban list than what we have right now. I love the idea of people just playing whatever they want to. I think that people can self regulate the format with playgroups because its a social format. On the other hand if your trying for competitive then just about everything should be able to be used, but that is kind of a hot take. I do like the idea that snail had about how much the cost of the cards matter because making the format cheaper is better. my only thing about that is that I personally dont run any of these cards outside of cedh and have a very high wr for any of the shops that I have played at. and its not just me but my buddies too, I do agree with that making the format cheaper is better, but I hate taking away options from everyone.
mana crypt is the only card I'm a little salty about. mostly because it's in my coin flip trbal deck in place of a sol ring. but I also want it banned. i just want a coin flip rock
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
About nadu. He really is that strong. I once took control of it for only one trun, and despite my deck not being build around it (orzov life gain) i managed to ramp 5 lands and draw 3 cards in a single turn which made it impossible for my opponents to come back. Over all im glad he got banned
NGL shit like that makes me feel significantly less bad about just building a direct counter to someone's deck.
Don't limit how you interact with the board and plan to be interacted with. No need to not just play mass land destruction and just stop people from drawing a dumb number of cards.
I am entirely in favor of the new bans.
Dockside had to go.
Nadu was the new paradox engine issue
Less fast mana is fine
Black lotus is banned everywhere so jeweled lotus being banned was a good call
Dockside definitely needed to go. It's a shame I can't add it to my "Goblin Navy" deck I'm building, though
crypt ban devastating for coin flip decks /s
Do feel sorry for them as they're one of the few decks that actually lost synergy with the ban. Most decks with crypt just lost something generically good.
Glad to here you guys accurately describe and understand the power the sol ring and mana crypt. You guys are some of the best mtg creators and this really solidifies it for me.
So I DO see crypt and lotus at my lgs, we have a solid 4 to 6 pubstompers each week. How do I remove Voja turn 2 or 3? They're not going to be "just as strong", you've literally halved the number of "sol rings" in the format.
Most removal is two mana
@@owenmeany6482 ward 3
@@owenmeany6482think he meant the concern more for his 3 generic ward cost
@@owenmeany6482 well when they are talking specifically about voja, if most removal cost 2 they actually cost 5
@@loganblackblood6713chainers edict
It is an interesting ban philosophically.
Because these 4 bans feel directly linked to power level, which all of the previous bans (except Flash) supposed have not. Which is very new for the rules committee.
It will be interesting to see how this changes things into the future.
I agree 110% with what you said about casual tables being steamrolled by UG Value Pile. Literally my least favorite type of deck to play against. I'm forced to spend all my removal just to stop that one player from snowballing out of control, and then they usually have more value pieces than I have removal pieces and win anyway. And the other players at the table are usually no help either.
Play a combo deck. Just win out from under them until they have to play interaction to deal with you.
Or just beat them to death (in game obviously). Big stompy and a big stompy tribe like Eldrazi can kill a player pretty quick
@@ian_lambert-knightso... your solution is either play a deck style they may not enjoy (and may have so spend a lot of money on making) or... buy an Eldrazi deck, which are renound for being expensive, right, smart idea, you just recommended spending money or spending money
@@ChimneyCrab737 Most importantly you can build a cheap combo deck. Plenty of combos cost less than a dollar per card and offer plenty of resiliencey. While a few cEDH combos can get expensive (Lion's eye diamond) most of them have budget alterations.
I never said go play an Eldrazi deck specifically. I said Big Stompy 🦶. Any big stompy tribe is a good example but I picked Eldrazi.
Next if you don't enjoy a fast combo deck or a Big Stompy deck then don't expect to be able to beat a value pile without having a resource advantage.
And if you think you need to pile money into Eldrazi you are mistaken. While many of their most powerful tools are expensive there is more than enough support to play Budget Eldrazi.
So in conclusion if you want to beat a value pile you have to go taller or faster or out value. While magic isn't free I personally strongly support proxies and think that if a certain type of deck is troubling it is worth brewing up a solution.
On a small side note you can play land destruction and stax too. That also probably beat a value pile UG deck. Might get you beat up but it probably works. Lots of ways to lock someone out of the game too with stax.
@@ian_lambert-knight Your solution is just "Have you tried winning the game?"
@@MrZanvine Well play the game slightly differently. Playing those decks doesn't necessarily mean you'll win.
I appreciate the shoutout, I gotta put that Kaho list back together at somepoint
I've thought about doing that just with Zethi, Arcane Blademaster as the secret commander
Hey Elk, you’ve mentioned the Fractured Identity/Nine Lives line and wanting a commander for it. I have that combo in Queza, Augur of Agonies, which also opens up the combo to work with Lich’s Mastery and Phage the Untouchable!
👀
@@33elk I actually run this combo in my Zedruu deck as well, the ability to give away Nine Lives at 8 stacks is a great alternative if you don't have the mana or pieces for the rest of the combo in hand.
I would have never expected Trinket Mage to defend Browbeat effects lol. Respect tbh they're fun even if they're not great.
There's a guy at my locals who runs a The First Sliver deck that's 90 something lands. I don't remember the exact combo but it was something along the lines of Cast commander, Cascade into a Tibalt's Tricker which counters The First Sliver and then "cascades" into some other cards that lead to a Protean Hull combo.
I think the recent bans would be a great way for people to get into cube. Still want to use those mana crypts and dockside’s? A high power cube is a great home for them!
Sporogenic infection is a lot deeper then I thought. It's like a super edict. It works even if an opponent has two creatures because you can force them to sac one of them.
I took apart my Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer deck to build her back-up from ground zero for Duskmourn. Instead of focusing on Morph I focus on Manifest in order to cheat creatures with negative EtB effects into play. For example, the (literal) hidden commander of the deck is Phage, the Untouchable who is snuck onto the battlefield face-down and only flips up for the player deathtouch before combat damage. Other creatures include things like Phyrexian Dreadnaught (a 1 cmc 12/12 trampler). Since Manifest is the most important mechanic in the deck all the new cards from Duskmourn, Murders at Karlov Manor, and Assassin't Creed are incredibly useful.
I would love to see this list! I’ve been feeling very down on the morph build of my kadena deck recently, and I’m excited to try some of the new duskmourn tech
Great bans by the RC. I own all these cards already and it feels good to be king and have them in your opening hand, but it feels way worse to lose when your opponent has a nuts opener.
I'd rather that than be stuck in a 2 hour game of baby magic
This sounds like some spike cope
I have none of the cards, and the bans (except nadu) were pretty stupid
I personally agree they could’ve gone harder on the bans. I think banning commanders that don’t directly ruin the experience and are just powerful isn’t correct, so they did good on that. I personally don’t like playing into ad naus decks, or well made simic value(like kinnan or sometimes derevi who is bant but close enough) I run tons of interaction but blue is way stronger than every other color. My best deck is an orzhov deck who plays at extremely high power Casual. So I just can’t counter major wins. Silence, Orim’s chant, Aven interrupter, and ranger captain can only do so much.
Idk ryhstic, one ring or Fish being banned would’ve been very nice.(Cause I don’t own a one ring…j
@@zavhyatta9795 sounds like the decks you play against are cEDH not high power casual
@@Blacklodge_Willy the line between cEDH and high power casual is very blurry and people have differing definitions. For me, cEDH is a subset of high power EDH decks where the commander is chosen for a specific reason and is considered to be better than any other commander in that color set for your strategy (so you don't run Jarad as your golgari commander because there are better golgari commanders for sacrificing crearures), and also that the lists are optimized to a meticulous level. You playtest until you find the best combination and amount of lands and everything else.
@@MK-13337 I agree with your assessment. I must have read the original post wrong (?).
@@MK-13337he thinks blue is way stronger than any other color. He's definitely not playing high power casual. But being in favor of more bans makes me think he doesn't belong to either format
Nadu definitely feels like a stray bullet. It's kinda like Tergrid IMO, where the players would police themselves on playing it because it sucks, and before long you just don't see it at casual tables. If there was a cEDH-specific ban in this list, Nadu would be it.
Dockside should've been banned years ago. I have nothing else to say here lol.
I've never been a fan of Jeweled Lotus from the start. Such an egregious design on WotC's behalf that's transparently about selling packs and not about a healthy format.
Mana Crypt seems a BIT odd considering it's always been around and other similar pieces get to stay, but I'm not heartbroken about it either. There are other good fast mana pieces left, but I think that the consistency lost from Mana Crypt and the other two is going to slow down EDH, at least somewhat. To say I'm excited is an understatement lol.
Overall, these bans seem fitting for the health of the format, and it's nice to see the RC doing something for once. CEDH is getting the brunt of the ban, but meta shakeups are super fun! Who knows where the sub-format will go from here?
PS: To answer Trinket's question: The groups I play with will be largely unaffected. I personally have a Crypt and Dockside that I wasn't using (should've sold them long ago, RIP) because I don't like playing at super high power like that. Dockside will definitely be the most impactful ban for the folks I play with, Jeweled Lotus secondarily.
While it's true that these bans won't affect Simic Value Pile.deck and won't stop pubstompers from pubstomping, I think the bans are a step in the right direction. Ultimately, EDH bans don't make or break the format, its the player's attitudes.
Nadu is definitely higher in term of causing a problematic gameplay pattern than Tergrid. Needed a ban, and besides as you said : Simic value pile has loads of other choices...
The issue is that even in the 99, Nadu accidentally does obnoxious things.
I reanimated Nadu in my Rakdos high-power deck, and did the "Nadu thing" because I just happened to have Lightning Greaves in play.
@@simonteesdale9752 Yeah, should've said in my OG post but I totally stand by Nadu's ban lol. Wholly deserved and best to do it sooner than later (unlike Crypt...)
Overall my playgroup was minimally affected as only a few of us had these cards, however I did bring up the conversation to just buck the banned list altogether.
Currently floating the idea of just having Power 9 banned and everything else legal
Can I play leovold with your table?
Vintage Ban list, fuck it. Commander as a Premise is Vintage but expanded anyway
@@nikolaitheundying better be prepared to take the smoke 😉
No, Other cards need to be banned for multiple reasons.
The only card that was banned that was undeserving was Jeweled Lotus. Jeweled Lotus isn't a problem itself.
I would have been much happier to see Lion's eye diamond and or oracle banned. Both are far more problematic and represent a frankly format wide problem.
@@danthewafflelord3059 That is the best way to make the worst format. Every deck is just a time vault deck with some extra combos for spice. What does any deck do? It's a grixis shell with additional colors running tinker time vault and also thoracle consult and also reanimating griselbrand (with lutri as companion because no cost to running it). At least that is the winning deck at any NBL edh game I have seen.
I agree with rhystic study, the two problems I see are first, it is played a lot more, and it affects tons more people, some may even not know about the bans and play it. But the bigger thing is that if you go, "lets ban rhystic study and remora", then what about esper sentinel, then what about smothering tithe, then what about pollywog prodigy or something, and it would have a lot more of a ripple effect.
For everyone saying to use rule 0 instead of banning stuff... stop it.
Rule 0 works BETTER with bans. It shouldnt be the first thing that you do for the game. It should be the way people play golos when its banned... not "Hey can yall just not use counterspells?"
it should be the LAST RESORT. Not the beginning.
The banlist should be a line. it should be a statement. If you dont have a line and you are just saying for me to rule 0 EVERYTIME... Theres no reason to play with randos.
i agree with you guys. Rystic and mystic remora absolutely should be here also.
Its so stupid if you go to a pay 2 play game store as well. The pods often arent comp. But their is tons of broken stuff in between BAN RHYSTICS
The argument to use Rule 0 goes against the idea of a banlist. The banlist was meant to be a signpost of 'These types of cards aren't fun to play'.
These bans target cEDH and high-power, not low to mid play. The RC needs to remove the banlist and rebuild it completely after making a dedicated cEDH RC and banlist. All current bans are just cards the RC has played against too much and/or they've lost to. ThOracle not even being MENTIONED is an insult to the format, while the reason for banning Mana Crypt is the SAME REASON FOR A SOL RING BAN. The only reason the RC refuses to ban Sol Ring is because they know that would actively piss off Wizards.
Yes and no. This WAS targetted for casual. Its been 10 years. More and more casual players got their hands on these cards and used the in pods. In spell table i see them all the time.
i will agree however with thoracle ban. its kinda dumb that its not banned but coalition victory is
@@TheAngelRaven
You're talking as if these game pieces have no value. It's one thing if these are cheap cards, but wotc sold many sets and boxes based on these chase cards. To then ban them especially when the cards have gotten reprints is wotc selling snake oil
I don't agree with the "getting rid of triple digits cards makes commander cheaper." The next best ramp card will get more expensive because it is the next best thing. It is just the Magic finance works. It will be Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Mox Opal, etc. I agree with everything else that you have said but that point.
I actually compare this ban with the Caw Blade era in standard. After Jace and Stoneforge we banned, Jace was hitting $120 (something unheard of back then) and SFM around $40. Standard was popular back then and many quit playing because of that ban. People's wallets do matter in tcgs. Dockside was on the black list already so people may have expected that. MC and JLo were not there though. In a non-rotating and static format as edh, this ban just decreases trust in commander staples. I'm not talking about second market. I'm talking about player's wallets.
cEDH is proxy friendly. Paying a lot for cards is inherently a risky investment. Staples are the most at risk for bans after all. Buyer’s remorse isn’t really worthy of sympathy in this case.
@commanderpower99 💯 accurate.
@maximillianhallett3055 sympathy and respect for the consumer is what makes people comfortable with spending this kind of money in the first place. Like it or not, without whales, collectors and other big spenders, Magic would cease to exist. They are what keeps production of the game funded
Actually, banning expensive cards inherently makes the next cards cheaper, if the community sees expensive cards be banned, they are less likely to buy more overpriced cards, as a result the market will adjust to reflect what the maximum price the community is willing to pay, and as a result the highest cost of cards will go down
@@danthewafflelord3059without whales, wizards wont just sit there like a lemon and keep selling the product that the same price and allow themselves to die (I have no idea how you came to this conclusion), wizards makes a massive profit margin with magic right now, mainly because they are able to sell boxes for very high prices, and the whales are the ones who buy the vast majority of those boxes, while the rest of the community is unwilling/unable to, one the whales leave, nobody will be buying the overpriced things WotC puts out, and as a result, prices will decrease slowly until the remaining players are happy with the new price, and are willing to take the place of the whales
as a pox loam lover man lands are the best! 50% of the time they win every time
5-color Kaho is exactly what I needed to hear. I have a brew I’ve been wanting to flesh out which is 5C spellseeker but now I’m adding kaho as the secret partner commander.
No Elk! don't wish too loudly or we'll get another 5 color commander that is designed explicitly to only do the land creature strategy!
I'm a snail farmer and I personally make sure that every one of my snails is infested with parasites.
"Commander still has a Ban-ding problem." - Helm of Chatzuk
What? No! I love my Rhystic Studies!
I relate to the quick deck turnover, that’s why the decks that stick around for me are the ones that influence how other people play more, since that makes the replays different every time
1:06:43 the Esper one does, too. It has a room card that is basically better Enchanted Evening and Ondu Spiritdancer, so when Ondu Spirit Dancer enters it copies an enchantment, but since it is an enchantment now it can copy itself, which will then do the same
Ironically this ban list MIGHT make dockside crypt and lotus MORE common in my play group as they get cheaper lol
I *immediately* started brewing up Iname Ad Naus after this. I'd love to check out your list at some point Trinket Mage. I've been struggling to come up with a fun mono-black commander and this is perfect.
For Star Athlete I'm a fan in certain strategies. It's pretty sick in Neheb, The Eternal. I either get to blow up your thing, or I get an extra 5 mana on my next main phase on top of doming you for 5. Also good in the contexts mentioned of damage doublers/increasers or treating it like a 8/2 with menace. I think if you don't have easy/regular access to haste enabling early in the game or aren't running these other strategies that either really care about damage dealt or increase damage dealt, then it becomes a lot more "meh."
I like these bans because they get us closer to how people actually play the format
If that's true then why ban them and ruin it for those of us that do play and enjoy them in cEDH where they're not affecting causal pods? Commander is supposed to be friendly to all power levels, and you're supposed to be able to play how you want to as long as everyone at the table agrees. Now the RC just said, "This is the way you're supposed to play commander." I don't like that.
@@SDTCG You'll probably still be able to play how you want, as long as everyone at the table agrees. ;)
@@N1NJ4P1R4T3 That's true for games outside of tournaments, but I would prefer to still be able to play these cards in tournaments.
*some people. Jesus Christ the hubris
Not everyone plays battlecruiser kitchen table EDH. Just because you do, and thats the only version of the game you engage with, that does not mean its how everyone "actually" plays it.
This will affect my casual pods because i cant proxy crypt and dockside into my jank brews tp help them keep up
Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but with Jeska, I think star athletes trigger that deals 5 damage if they don’t sac the permanent also triples, so that changes from 14 to 24 damage if they don’t sac and don’t block
Im not a huge fan of the Jlo/Crypt bans, but I am happy that it could cause thorn effects and blood moon to be back in a big way. Love those effects in cEDH 😅
I have a few personal restrictions i put on my decks, not inherently clear reasons just how I build my decks.
-No spells that cost 0 or have alternative cost to play for 0 mana.
-max 1 planeswalker
-max 1 non-land seeking tutor
Not rules I expect of others, just restrictions I impose on myself.
I have iname as one
But it's about the commander being a 12mv so stinging study for 12
Cloudkill for 12
The hidden commander per say is Cactus Preserve a man land for 3 becomes a 12/12 so then u can greater good it and recur it or give it infect
The way you correct for Simic value pods pub stomping is to remove the stigma around playing combo decks. Simic value piles take advantage of the all-to-common rule zero around no infinite combo to craft a metagame that they can take advantage of.
And stax. Or a mutual understanding that if Armageddon is not allowed cause its not casual then so is Exploration.
I hate hate hate large power cards that are big digit prices. Very happy about these bans personally, even if they aren't going to affect my local group.
And now I wait for Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora to go too. Down with generic boring value cards. And those two would effect my local group :)
Yeah Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora and Smothering Tithe are actually detrimental to the format and honestly are quite format warping because people essentially rely on those cards to do whatever they're trying to do. They treat them as auto includes which has annoyed me for a long time now. Casual Commander has gotten to the point where it's actually detrimental for you if you DON'T have them in your deck because nearly every other player has them.
@@azelia2464 It really does require you to match up, and if you don't, well you're just playing at a disadvantage most games. It's one of the reasons I don't play more often with some of my friends :(
If you think that Rhystic and Fish need to be banned I am willing to bet that your pod is the issue.
Pay your taxes and learn to interact appropriately. If you counter the Rhystic etc or remove it or just pay your taxes they tend to not do much.
Also if you hate "Auto include cards" don't build your deck with them. If you have other people using generic value engines and format staples to try to gain an advantage I'm sorry to tell you that there will always be a best option. If not one of those there will be something else.
If you want to play a deck with a slow strategy and hate Losing to blowouts then you need to be prepared to slow everyone else down.
Banning every popular card isn't the answer.
Most of the banned cards needed to be banned because 1 it is very hard to interact with, 2 it is warping to the first two turns especially, 3 They lead to bad play patterns.
I'd just like to point out that the format is probably the way it is because of spells due to lack of spells like Fierce Guardianship. Guardianship doesn't hit creatures, and counter spells are "removal", which we need more playable versions of to balance EDH
As a CEDH player, I am ecstatic over this banning. As you said, the slow midrange hell is going to be more common. I want rog si to be worse.
But other than RogSi wasn’t every other deck blue midrange? Feels bad to nerf the one deck holding up the archetype right?
I think dockside’s loss will be felt more by the non blue agro decks. Like idk what korvold and other jund decks do now same with rakdos.
RogSi is fine either way. Usually it’s too fast to really get big docksides, it doesn’t run Jeweled Lotus and it doesn’t get hit harder by Mana Crypt ban than other decks.
So it was actually pretty much the biggest winner of this ban announcement because its opponents got hit much harder.
I found runo stormkirk/krorhus to be an interesting commander for land creatures, especially considering there are 2 creaturelands with all ceature types.
The deck didn't end up working out all that well but it was interesting to see dimir landramp.
Yeah he is underwhelming. Which is sad, because he is so cool.
@@rocknrolla7288 overall, (land)cyclers are in my experience the easiest way to flip him, the real problem is gettung something worthwile to copy in play
Agree with a lot of things here, except the "you dont see a lot of mana crypts in casual". In my local meta, theres lots of people that have mana crypts, dockside, rhystic, mystic in all of their decks, while not playing actual cedh.
My friend did a 99 lands Nadu deck with man lands. It won the only game he played with it lol
It's absolutely worth seeing Nadu go, though part of me was hoping I'd have him for just a bit longer. In honour of the "We designed him with Commander in mind" statement about him, I wanted to make a Nadu-build the way I like building Commander decks, which was reaching into my trunk to scrounge for cards, not dedicating a single cent to building around him actively. I ended up with what I called "Brawlic Nadu," centered on +1/+1-counters, combat tricks and fighting. Because all of these are traditionally targeting effects, I'd build my Nadu to be strong as shit, while also drawing cards and ramping on the side. Using stuff like Roiling earth to landfall into huge advantage, swinging Nadu for lethal, it was a nutty deck. I brought it to locals once and we laughed about the fact that even though I built the deck off of literal leftovers, draft-chaff and bulk, it was still able to stay at tables with constructed, dedicated decks, because Nadu was just such a brick shithouse that pumped card advantage so well, that it didn't matter if he got targeted, he'd always slip back in. Absolutely crazy card that had no right being that good and we already know that it wasn't supposed to be that way.
About both the man land deck and the secret commander, I actually built a prismatic bridge deck with a secret commander of Nissa who shakes the world. And jt was entirely built around man lands
I run Star Athlete in Auntie Blyte. You can target your own permanent to get 5 free self-inflicted damage which puts 5 counters on her. That can be enough to take somebody out with her.
I have ran into Jeweled Lotus far more frequently than Mana Crypt, but I have consumed enough commander content to make an educated judgement on its potential and power. Sucks for those people that lost money on it. 🤙🏼
Some of my favorite decks I own right now are an off color self mill Reanimator deck with Dogmeat, Ever Loyal and a Vhal, Candlelight Researcher deck that makes absurd amounts of colorless mana to pay for expensive reusable mana sink abilities.
Edit: also a man land Raggadragga deck. Thanks for the reminder.
using price as a metric for bans in the most proxy friendly era commander has ever seen feels pretty wild
Hey trinket, if you want a cool commander for kaho, try master formed anew. You can turn her into your commander with him and have black tutors to get to her!
Honestly I don't mind the bans. As for Rhystic Studies and Mystic Remora by banning those you would just move the problem to black due to Necropotence and the enchantment that lets you pay life to draw cards. The best thing they can due for those are ban the mandatory everyone wheels, unban the hullbreacher, and encourage more draw hate outside of blue
11:03 this is true, nobody expected what banning Mana Crypt did to the format
54:12 What exactly is this "restriction for my commander decks"?
Rhystic study or one ring wasn’t included because they weren’t looking at broken card draw, they were looking at broken mana. Probably for a new edh version or wotc product coming out soon
I think being happy that expensive cards got banned is silly in a format that is friendly to proxies. It sucks for everyone who bought these cards, which did all have recent printings and were pushed chase cards, that now are unable to play them. Price of cards is not a problem in EDH. Rule 0 is supposed to account for players managing themselves. Now that is all out of the window, and what the RC just said is, "Don't buy expensive, powerful cards because we might just ban them."
Rule 0 still accounts for players managing themselves, though? In fact, it's WAY easier to convince a pod to allow you to run a small selection of banned cards than it is to disallow a selection of otherwise legal cards from a selection of over 25 thousand.
And, while, yes, it does suck that there were a bunch of people that bought these cards only to get them banned, that's... something that happens with other formats, too. Casual pods can always still allow you to play it and competitive pods (ones that follow the banlist, anyways, as many still don't follow the CRC banlist) will adjust, just like any other Constructed players do.
@@ArceusShaymin Rule 0 SHOULD account for balancing pods, and I honestly rarely have issues with this. When I do, it's not because of these cards, it's because someone overestimates their deck building abilities and calls their upgraded precon an 8.5. I've also never had a pod where someone has asked to run banned cards but I definitely have been in pods where people say, "I don't want to play against that commander" or "I don't want to play against a deck that has an infinite combo" etc. so I disagree that I or anyone else will be able to easily run these cards. Also, no pod is gonna agree to let me play these cards because it's going to increase the power level of my deck to an unfair advantage unless they also have them. And I don't want to run them in those situations, I only want to run them when my opponents also have access to them.
Your argument that there are bans in other formats isn't an argument against what I said about losing value in cards. It's still bad when it happens in other formats, and it's bad here too. Yes it happens, but again, when it's happening to the chase rare cards WotC just printed, that sucks for the player base, and there's no saying that it isn't. It doesn't make me want to support the game, and it's only leading me further towards only buying proxies.
@@SDTCG I mean, I don't think people starting to proxy is bad - if anything, this incident has taught people (in an unfortunately hard way) that unless you're really committed to having a card in paper, you shouldn't invest in it. Again, it does suck, and I won't deny that part. But hopefully this will spark a more healthy discussion around proxies and hopefully shunt people who talk shit about them out of the space. I wasn't really trying to argue that point, moreso stating that it's not all doomposting.
I'm also glad to hear that you have much more smooth interactions with random pods, and I'm not saying that sarcastically; sometimes I feel like I'm going insane. Because the usual LGS Rule 0 conversations I overhear involving REMOVING cards include 20 minute arguments over why their Commander isn't annoying or why this random stax piece I've never heard the name of is apparently the most unfair piece ever that shouldn't have been printed. With 400 cards in a usual pod with nigh-infinite interactions it basically becomes an unbearable game of "yeah but" that leaves little room to actually get a game in.
On the other hand, any time I've ever heard people ask to play with banned cards - or done so myself - it's "Hey, can I use [X]?" Followed by a simple "Yeah, sure, we have some decks for that." or "Oh, no, we don't think our decks would be able to match that, do you have something else?" Still sucks to not get to play that deck or that piece in the deck occasionally but at least the yes or no is quick and doesn't tend to cause an argument. The idea being that a shorter lists of cards to try and "yes" at a table is much more easy to digest for both old and new players. New players will see a card that is banned from the RC and either respect that since they don't know better yet or want to see what the card does out of interest, and an older player will understand WHY those cards were banned by the RC and gauge whether or not they want to play with them from their own evaluation (even if it's faulty).
From my own experience, Rule 0 conversations are always easier when talking permissiveness rather than exclusivity. Not to say you shouldn't have a discussion about both so as to be comprehensive, but generally I've found people are way less salty about allowing cards than asking others to take them out (or god forbid swap decks).
I mean, yeah? If people are going to buy cards that they know are artificially priced and inflated, then they know the risk they are taking, prices arent based on something concrete, they're based on the community's perceived value, they knew the risk and the risk showed itself this time around
@@ChimneyCrab737 every time I drive my car I'm taking a risk of getting in an accident but if I get hit by a drunk driver you wouldn't say, "You knew there was a risk when you got in the car." That's basically the argument you're making. I'm not some MtG finance bro trying make money, most of us just spent our hard earned money on a hobby we're passionate about, and now we can't use the expensive game pieces we were all sold on. Idk how you can not see that as a bad thing. Wouldn't you be mad if they banned your most expensive card?
The band were perfect.
Also second
#unbanmanacrypt
Do you have your decklist posted some where?
Rhystic/Mystic and Dockside are a unit. Many players will assert that banning Dockside just makes Rog/Si better, but also that banning Rhystic/Mystic just makes Rog/Si better.
Players will adapt, players will innovate, its tough to predict how things will shake out. I'm of the mind that people have just started deploying the Rog/Si gambit about basically any banning, so the same way there were individuals demanding another year of data before we ban nadu, I'm just gonna go ahead and say "we don’t have enough data yet" whenever I hear catastrophizing for the next few months.
Next question from me: What changes would you make to the rhystic keyword if you would be in charge of the prophecy set? I don’t want to talk about powering down Rhystic Study, but also to make cards like Rhystic Cave more interesting.
about unwanted remake. actually good. anyone who uses effects that put things on top of their library. wonderful. my playgroup has been getting stronger so vamp tutor, englightened, noxious revival, hall of heliods generosity,.......
I feel like Rhystic Study in commander is similar to Brainstorm in Legacy in terms of why they aren't banned, when I think commander, Rhystic Study is one of the first cards that comes to mind.
dockside is the only one ive ever seen at a casual table, each time it ended in an instant win.
27:14 hope you run Trinket Mage to tutor that Darksteel Citadel :D
You may ban a thousand cards to make edh a Battlecruiser again, but I remember that time an that doesn't brought any new players into MTG it only brought already existing players into the Format
Star Athlete looks like a great fit for Rionya!
I’m new to mtg and commander my first game I played at LGS until then only played with some friends. Anyway first game guy in my pod played deck that dockside, mana vault, mana crypt and one ring. Did not enjoy my first few games in that pod. I’m not sad to see any of these cards go.
Cedh player here
So i have swapped out Mana Crypt 😭 with Voltaic Key and the goldfishing results are positive so far. Have to learn a couple new lines, but it's kind of exciting 👍
I already ran key in my jace deck need to find something else for crypt
love your content :)
I have a hot take which will lead into a question, Rhystic Study and to an admittedly lesser extent Mystic Remora is mostly fine in anything above low power edh.
I would argue that if both of them are such a problem in the pod it is on the players who arent playing Rystic Study or Mystic Remora, to run the removal for the cards, and that is ultimately a net good for the pod and format since it promotes interaction within the game and not just durdling away in a solitaire competition until the game is over. Now I grant you this puts mono-red decks in a worse spot than before, but even in that case I think you could make the argument that the mono-red player should be politic-ing the table and making deals to remove the problem cards.
My question is why does Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora differ so greatly in power and opinion, from general stax pieces, that also demand interaction and generate a lot of advantage, like Smothering Tithe, Wandering Archaic, Elesh Norn etc.
Is it simply that the mana invested is too low for the pay off?
I personally think banning cards based off their price is a bad take... I understand where you are coming from, but there is the proxy option.
Cards shouldn't be banned based on price you're correct, its just added upside in my eyes when an inaccessible staple is banned. I don't want cards banned based solely on price.
@33elk I'm confused on the accessibility portion. If proxying is 100% doable, that makes it accessible. Sure it's not the real card and cannot be played in a tournament, I would argue 85% of players do not play in tournaments. There will be a power vacuum that will always need filling, looking at you mana vault. From what ive seen on the internet (great example, i know) the general consensus was the banning of mana crypt and jeweled lotus were not warranted. Now personally, my playgroup has chosen to ignore these bans outside of dockside and Nadu. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I respect y'alls as well. Let me know your thoughts on this.
I wonder if cEDH tables start playing Manageysir as Dockside is now banned. I mean you can also loop it and get a shit ton of mana from it. It's not the same for sure, but what alternatives are there left? or will cEDH become more of a higher power EDH now, what do you think?
I found the problem is when someone puts Nadu in the 99. Out of nowhere someone is taking a 10-15 minute turn
Critique on the video format.
I normally watch podcasts like this at work. I tend to keep the phone about 3-5 ft away from me as I work. This way I can glance over to see a card being referenced.
With the current format I feel like your avatars take up too much of the screen especially as a static PNG. I recommend changing this to make the card you're referring to larger. It is the focus of the top at hand but is the smallest element of the screen.
I do enjoy the show and look forward to more! I just wanted to give some feedback❤
At 40:17 I was about the answer a proud "yes" like Trinket Mage did
I used to have a Captain Sisay deck that used Lin Sivvi as a secret commander, and if she was about to get exiled I used skyshroud poachers to get a riftsweeper
The bans feel off to me.
For casual, Nadu just takes too long a turn for how early he can pop off. But like, that's on u if ur not on enough answers/think the turns take too long.
For crypt, sure. Banworthy since its ring but 0 mana, but most casuals don't own real copies.
JLo: only works in commander (by itself). Keep it legal.
Extortionist: outside of blink/clone combos, perfectly fine since it scales with how well u opponent's are doing. (Same with jeskas will and geyser.)
Anny chance doing a deck tech on iname death aspect?
My awesome mono black colour Cedh deck that depended on Mana Crypt is now unplayable. I’m looking at alternatives atm, because of the ban list. Sad to see variety be killed for cedh.
Will listen this video later.
"If you're nothing without the Mana Crypt, you shouldn't have it." -Iron Man, probably.
@@Cybertech134 exactly, my Varragoth cedh will become the cool Iname, Death Aspect they talked about
If WotC banned Sol Ring, what would've happened to all the commander products that are still being sold and have this card? Yes, banned cards will continue to be printed and put in packs, but packs weren't meant to be pre-determined, unlike commander decks, and Sol Ring is present in pretty much every commander deck. I think at this point there's just nothing Wizards can do with this card, banning it would bring too many consequences that would be too hard to deal with.
sorry if I missed a comment with similar thoughts, but I would love to hear opinions on that topic!
It's hilarious hearing about needing to give Star Athlete haste is a major downside like red doesn't have 3,011 ways to give it to all their creatures as a static effect.
For Mana Crypt I feel the real issue isn't so much if its stronger/weaker than Sol ring but really more from a consistency standpoint. Free 2 colorless mana with crypt can set you a lot farther ahead than a sol ring with the proper turn 1, leading to a situation where you have powered out an end game threat or multiple end game threats over the first three turns of the game before most decks hit their 2-3 mana for removal (assuming it's even in hand), compared to sol ring where assuming it's not a turn 1 ancient tomb you'll have at most 4 mana before land drop turn 2... compared to crypt's potential 7. It creates situations where there are just non-games where the game is over turn 1 at non-cedh tables... which kind of the main target demographic of the format.
Actually compounding on this, just kind of hit me later on, there's ANOTHER reason that they article doesn't even touch on. The RC talks about explosive turn two plays with turn 1 being setup and the only reason they're not banning sol ring being that it's the face of the format but honestly I think there is a bit of a stronger defense for sol ring than that. Colors. Turn 1 crypt leaves you with your land for turn meaning you can play any 3 drop card requiring a single color pip before anyone else has land down if you're going first. Jeweled lotus applies this same concept but allowing you to play your 4 drop commander turn 1 before anyone even has land down. Turn 1 sol ring uses you colored mana to pay into it, leaving your ONLY options as 1-2 drop colorless spells and artifacts, which unless you're running a purely colorless or artifact heavy deck that will have a high density of those types of cards, your ONLY option for sol ring is signet, talisman, sword of the animist, boots, greaves, insert 2 drop artifact of your choice. Most decks aren't built around that kind of start, making the turn 1 sol ring even less likely to pop off than the other two even with it being technically fast mana.
sold all my expensive cards now, no trust anymore in the value and gonna proxy
I'm with TM on this: It will consolidate power in blue farm and won't cure pubstomping in casual.
To even hope to cure pubstomping, players need to grow a backbone and advocate for themselves. If you really don't want to play against lockdown stax or hard control, you need to state that outright. Don't let people push you around. This is not to say "be inflexible" or play "my way or the highway", but simply to not let yourself be a door mat for someone to wipe their dirty boots on.
Card bros. Wishing I could read card text on mobile QQ seems like a cool watch
if the goal was to make commander cheaper, ban everything in the reserved list (even the relatively affordable ones).
I wish wizards would stop putting second commanders in the precons. I think if they took out the secondary commanders they could focus the precons more towards the face commander which would "buff" the decks and make them feel better since they don't have this split identity when they are built towards both.
It's an insane take that "The current CEDH meta is revolving around Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora and the only competition to that was dockside, so banning dockside is bad."
If your meta is able to be minimised to two decks fighting it out because of 3 cards - the three cards are the issue. The only thing I take away from this is that either Rhystic or Mystic should have also been banned to allow other decks and a more varied meta to emerge.
Glad you mention that in the video.
hey, you cannot do an episode like this without leaving to us at least a couple decklists 😂 can I please see the Iname one? I am a big Kamigawa fan
I looove the topic guys! More creative stuff please :)
View from Above... in my Blue Whit deck with NIKO from Duskmourn!!!
Trying to affect casual tables with a banlist is a lost cause of a goal. They should just ban for the top level. If they get cedh into a good diverse format with few true staples... then most any casual pod can just look upward to fix their problems.
Stax ruining your games? It's not busted in cedh because they play X cards or strategies. Try adding those.
Simic value destroying the table? It'd not bustedbin cedh because it hard loses to combo. Add a combo deck or two to your pod.
And so on. But if something is busted at the top level, then there's no clear way for casual tables to deal with it. It's just a problem that trickles for ever down.
exactly; the RC is trying to essentially ban "assholes who pubstomp" but as long as there are powerful cards and as long as there are new players who dont want to upgrade their precons there will always be pubstomping
Did you guys know they just made Fist of suns into a leyline for this set?
The leaked Black Panther card seems good with a manlands build around.
I think those are fake. They have a 2024 copyright and it should be 2025 right?
I *need* the decklist for that Esper Manlands deck.
The money argument at ~9:00 means reserved list should be banned...
agreed
Dont take my ridiculous tombstone stairwell combo
I don't think it should exist personally.
deathpit offering reminds me of overlaid terrain in that its 4 mana and gives 2 of what the color wants
Loved the bans.
Unbanning the original moxen would be *terrible* and would just make 5c miserable to face while punishing mono.
Would hate to see Rhystic Study banned, but would understand it.
I'm fine with the nadu ban because of how dominate the deck is and especially how long the turns are. I hate the other three bans because of cedh and it pushing blue decks even further into the lead. the committee has said previously that command is a social format and talking with your playgroup will resolve issues about power levels and what kind of game you are generally looking to play. So with that in mind why ban them at all, because me personally I have seen these cards played outside of cedh twice, and one time was a random pubstomper new to our shop. But he also came in with gae's cradle and went infinite on turn 4 vs me and some precons. This is a big caviot of me being a big pusher of even fewer bans on the ban list than what we have right now. I love the idea of people just playing whatever they want to. I think that people can self regulate the format with playgroups because its a social format. On the other hand if your trying for competitive then just about everything should be able to be used, but that is kind of a hot take. I do like the idea that snail had about how much the cost of the cards matter because making the format cheaper is better. my only thing about that is that I personally dont run any of these cards outside of cedh and have a very high wr for any of the shops that I have played at. and its not just me but my buddies too, I do agree with that making the format cheaper is better, but I hate taking away options from everyone.
mana crypt is the only card I'm a little salty about. mostly because it's in my coin flip trbal deck in place of a sol ring. but I also want it banned. i just want a coin flip rock
No one is stopping anyone from proxying. It's awful that people spent money on game pieces that they can't even use anymore.