Debate: Lucas and Hitchens - Poland between Russia and Germany
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มี.ค. 2015
- The first 2 minutes are audio only before the video begins.
Friday, 13 March 2015, 6:00 pm
William Mong Hall, Sidney Sussex College,
University of Cambridge
A discussion of Poland’s new role in Europe and the shifting nature of German-Russian relations, featuring:
Edward Lucas, Senior Editor at The Economist, and author of The New Cold War: Putin's Russia and the Threat to the West.
Peter Hitchens, author, columnist for The Mail on Sunday, and former Moscow correspondent.
Hosted by Dr Stanley Bill, Lecturer in Polish Studies, University of Cambridge.
55:27 So, according to Peter Hitchens, Russia has the right to decide about neighbouring countries, because Russia is poor and defenceless, without natural frontiers, and countries like Poland keep invading them (57:05). Peter Hitchens was surely referring the Polish-Muscovite War of 1605-1618, when Poland was part of the very powerful Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. However, to put things in perspective, let's remind the ethnic cleansing of Poles living in the Soviet Union in the 1930s (about 200,000 Poles murdered), Soviet invasion of Poland on 17 September 1939, massacre in Katyn in 1940 (over 20,000 Poles murdered), Stalinist terror of 1945-1956, and Soviet occupation of Poland until 1989 (the Russian army actually didn't leave Poland until 1992). Furthermore, Peter Hitchens has described Ukraine's aspirations to sign the European Union Association Agreement as "moving hostile alliances right up to Russia's frontiers" (57:20). Seriously?!
Soviet union killed a lot of people but to claim it was ethnically motivated is absurd
hitler once said to kill polish nation we only have to kill intelligentsia of poles ... and so he did kill on first rounds 45 thousand people .. also not to forget poland was no angel who killed jews even before nazi arrived and killed after them leaving just like lithuanians ... so this one sided nationalist argument that you form is nothing but rhetoric ... you people are just american plan to have intermarium between germany and russia ...that's why so many nationalist books had american neo con historians who wrote a lot of literature in collusion with galician and polish emigre who fled cuz they were colluded with nazi's
vikeyz1
What you wrote is a stream of demagoguery. You didn't refer to the original question, which is why would Russia have any right to decide about the neighbouring countries. Peter Hitchens said it's because Russia is vulnerable and constantly invaded by Poles (which is actually a compliment to Poland - suggesting that Poland is powerful enough to do it), and I reminded that for the past 300 years it was Russia who continually messed Poland up. How is this argument one-sided? Peter Hitchens' argument was one-sided, and I added the other side to it. Instead of referring to the original question and to Peter Hitchens' reply, you try to change the topic and bring in killing Jews, and collaboration with Nazis.
lesniewskis It's not just Poles he's talking about. Germans, Mongols, Ottomans. Russia has had many invading enemies besides the Poles.
LyovMyshkin
It's absurd to think that contemporary Germany would have a slightest interest in invading anyone, especially Russia with their nuclear power. Contemporary civilised Europe wants to compete in technological innovation, not in primitive violence. The catalyst of the Russian aggression was Ukraine wanting to sign the EU association agreement, which would merely mean that Ukraine would start preparing to one day be considered as a potential member state. Their joining the EU would still be a matter of decades. How can Peter Hitchens liken signing this very preliminary agreement to "moving hostile alliances right up to Russia's frontiers"?
lesniewskis First of all many people were murdered/died in teh Soviet Union in the 30's, first and foremost RUSSIANS killed under the Georgian Stalin. Second, the Russian invasion of Poland was done in conjunction with, and was suggested by Hitler, in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. While Soviet repression was real, it was also several orders of magnitude less than Nazi barbarity. 6.8 million Poles died in the Second World War under Nazi occupation, either in extermination camps, or shot, or of enforced starvation. Moreover, the Stalinist terror was not limited to Poland, but again encompassed the whole USSR and cannot be considered solely, or even largely, to be an act of repression by "Russians" loosely defined against "Poles". Of course the Poles have a right to be independent, but the Polish government does not have a good track record of having a responsible foreign policy, or of being very nice to its minorities. Let's not forget who was calling the shots on the Ukrainians in Volhynia and Galicia.
I find it absolutely remarkable when you get brilliant speakers but are too dumb or cheap or both to buy a proper microphone
Henry IX Did you just call PETER HITCHENS a liberal? I don't think you know much about the man.
I'm pretty sure that it was meant as a joke
a very good civilized debate and Q&A Peter Hitchens came out as usual full swinging to debunk the Anti-Russia/Putin derangement syndrome.
To get beyond De Tocqueville’s long-since reached prediction that Europe would end up caught vice-like between US and Russia, surely attention should be turned to the geopolitics and evolution of geopolitics of the USA and Russia ; not of what’s in between.
Good debate. The bbc doesn't mention the 20 police killed on the maidan.
nice one pete.
Terrible sound quality... sack that tecchie!
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Lucas appears to be a shill for the arms merchants.
Fear sells weapons don’t you know
As a social conservative peter is quite right to point out how insufferably virtuous Progressive Liberals are.
This is really what this debate is really about.
Corporate and cultural Liberalism and control.
Of course America doesn’t bully anyone does it Edward and it’s politicians don’t enrich 🙄themselves either
Said like a British Economic Toady
Peter represents morality
Edward represents power and money
Take your pick
Ps Peters quite correct This is about Power
The Great Peter Hitchens strikes again
Peter Hitchens not seeing Russia as a threat - it's political illiteracy. I have never been a fond of him, but gave it a go and watched this upload to the end. OMG!...... additionally I wouldn't call him a champion of mild manner debate . He makes a semblance of knowledge because he is sooooo domineering. I will not be interested in his opinion any more - waste of time and energy.
Of course it’s a threat but many neighbours are potential threats.
France and Germany still have he potential to threaten each other if the situation is right.
@@seanmoran6510 Well..... they are busy building Franco-German empire right now (EU it is)😂
@@nina-ciara I don’t know where you live but if your not in either of the 2 and your to the south or east of them do as your told 😂
As for the the UK it’s kaput either out or in
@@seanmoran6510 yep!🤣😉
@@nina-ciara Russia has no capacity to actually invade any other countries in a decisive manner, its army is tangled in Syria and its operations in Ukraine are confined to small scale displays of force. Russia is held up as a boogie man uncritically, despite it holding excellent relations with several of its neighbours such as Finland, which is poses no military threat to.
Germany isn't a state it is occupied by USA as a concurred territory who comes up for independence 100 yrs
I do not see Hitchens as qualified to speak on the subject of polish affairs , in fact his mindless tirades should be relegated maybe to Brittain First rallies
Masz rację, ale redukcja jego postaci do Britain First to chyba o krok za daleko.
This is exactly what Poland did in 1939, it had French and British guarantees against a German attack.
So the Poles started treating Germany with contempt because they figured that Germany would be shy of a conflict with Britain and France.
We all know how that worked out.
+Empire of Chaos True-Pat Buchanan's great book on World War Two covers this in some depth
Same propaganda bollox used to attack Poland in the first place . Go and educate yourself properly .
name one fact when this was true. we didnt care for germans in the slightest, apart fronmm when they got uppity about Gdansk's status.
Empire of Chaos. So, Poland saying no to Germany's demand to take the Polish Corridor and prevent the Poles from using their newly built port of Gydynia was being uppity was it? What else can you tell us which the Goebbels propaganda booklet has provided you with?
Nice argument! Clearly I am dealing with someone who's mastery of history and grammar is unmatched and beyond critical appraisal.
Hitchens v Warmonger.