I love watching these shows. I learned so much, especially about startups. Using motors, I'm a control engineer. Great, but my start up is t-shirts. But it's almost all the same issues. Transportation development licensing. Warehousing, I'm tiny.I'm a one man wearhouse is my brother's garage.I'm cleaning out, but it is very informative.John the Highlander😊😊😊
" ... the numerous other companies that already make axial flux motors? " The only company that is shipping axial flux (AF) motors, but admittedly in modest numbers, is EMRAX. The others are building prototyping quantities. When I can place an order and receive a delivery date within a few weeks, I'll consider then as 'making axial flux motors'. Now that Mercedes has bought YASA we should soon be able to buy one of their vehicles using this technology, rumored to first appear in AMG high performance vehicles. Meanwhile, in China small AF motors are being built in the tens of thousands and huge ones, suitable for earth moving equipment, trucks and buses are in volume production. But none yet suitable for high volume compact to full size sedan range. As Elon Musk discovered, building prototypes is easy compared to manufacturing in quantity. I have been waiting for a US manufacturer to come online so I can buy from them. They all seem to only be prepared to collaborate with the legacy OEMs, which tells me they are still building prototypes.
John, that was a very poor shot at answering your questions. The diagram and objects shown don't really show much at all. He talked about other people's axial flux motors when answering the power/mass question. Torev has chosen to compete in a market that is already well served. Perhaps a licensing agreement will be possible for some key aspect of the technology. Pancake motors could lead to simplified layouts for mass market vehicles. 80kW continuous is all 90% of the worlds automobiles need - 20kW/wheel. It would be easy to package a two-part housing (upper and lower) for a drive unit that contained two 800V, 20 kW axial flux motors, two sets of planetary gears, two inboard brakes, oil cooling motor and filter, oil/water heat exchanger, and rack and pinion steering with a pair of motors of its own - the outputs would be two half-shafts, and two steering arms. The inverters and control circuits could go in a separate plastic box under the hood and be connected to the drive unit via a ribbon cable with wires of appropriate size for the various currents. Inboard brakes allow aero-shielding for better airflow around the wheels, although 'virtual ball' suspensions disrupt airflow as it is. A motor per wheel reduces energy loses. Permanent magnet motors either give or take power, they can't freewheel like induction motors, thus induction motors are often more efficient for motor/wheel drivetrains. Torev and others should be focusing on delivering cheap, efficient, low power drivetrains for which the global market is probably 80 million units per year.
i found the IP - the two layers with a different radius very interesting. however, a similar approach with wedge shaped coils that covers a wider area of the diameter would also be possible. but maybe there is a benefit hidden in that two layer coil design hidden that i don't see. is there maybe a certain effect like the hallbach effect that might shape/fokus the magnetic field in a way that adds efficiency in one way or another?
Thanks, John. Since Torev won the GAMIC award, I'll take it as a given that the Intellectual Property that Rory/Torev has developed represents a significant step forward in the electromotive arts. I look forward to seeing how much progress Rory Brogan and his Torev startup can make in a year. As Elon Musk points out, prototyping is easy, manufacturing is hard.
That dated truism from Elon is pure irony. Considering the difference, between when he promises something and when he delivers (if he ever does deliver?) By the way Mercedes-Benz already bought an axial flux motor company. None of this is new, it's just like EVs in general. It's a hundred year plus development process, that never ends. That existed long before Elon and his cliche remarks, and will exist long after him. (I respect the engineers and engineering. But he just takes the credit from real engineers, while delivering nothing of substance himself)
@@nc3826 We all know Space X has delivered multiple cargo payloads to the ISS and humans too, meanwhile ULA and Boeing are still trying to figure out when their one week mission that has turned into 45 days and counting can come back, oh as Sandy Munro has seen and said Elon has engineering meetings and discussions with Space X Engineers and staff , he can and actually does do give input and make suggestions on solving issues and not just be a HIGH PAID TO CEO like some Legacy Auto CEO.
Use built in cold lasers to control the temperature of the motor so it doesn't overheat. Use a floating battery chamber in a vacuum chamber. Use reflective metals. The battery will not go bad in one of those vacuums for the winter. That's why tesla uses the batteries he does because of the vacuum the cold can't effect the health of the battery.
Very little information from this guy about what would make his motor any better than other axial field electric motors, produced by other companies already in the manufacturing phase. If there is something new and real, let’s hear what it is. Any relevant new patents? Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, Hyundai, even GM and Ford are making real vehicles right now with perfectly functional electric motors, not to mention BYD and the other Chinese companies cranking out millions of them every year.
Those automotive companies are making "real EVs", but based on radial flux, not axial flux.motors. So trolls that don't get that basic concept, are not going to understand any additional details, anyway. Such as what he already stated that it requires less permanent magnets. And it won a coveted GAMIC award. Both of which are apparently beyond your comprehension. So good luck with that....
Don’t be a smartass. I have been an electrical engineer for 50 years. Electric motors are quite within my comprehension, including synchronous AC motors, encoders, and the IGBT or MOSFET inverters used to drive them. I also know the difference between substance and vapor. Maybe this guy is the smartest one-man motor designer since Faraday, but he seems to be talking about direct drive per wheel motors, when referring to real motors in production as spinning at “thousands of RPMs”. These are real motors in real cars in production by real companies on real production lines in real factories, are real right now, not next year or next decade. They propel real cars like the Tesla Model S Plaid from 0-60 mph in 2 seconds; three of them not four, not one at each wheel. If you have the money, you can buy one today. Comprehend that.
lmao, demanding an EE journal level of detail from an Autoline interview? Thanks for proving my point.. And illustrating the difference between knowledge and wisdom..... FWIW no one needs a toy going down the road from 0 to 60 in 2 seconds.... But more efficient lighter motors are definitely needed... Which is what the interview was all about. It's sad if you're really an EE, since you sound more like an Elon zombie. With nothing of value to contribute to the conversation. Have fun trolling.
Innovation keeps going, EVs of the future are going to be amazing. Batteries and motors are making good progress, come on solar researchers get with it.
not a game changer but saves material cost. but material cost is not the deciding factor as of now. if you look at the motors from magnax or yasa(mercedes), the already are much lighter than other radial magnetic flux motors. because of that they should be cheaper in theory. but because they are not cheaper in reality there must be a factor in production that makes it expensive. that is the real problem so far. of course, if you have a design that shapes off another 15% of the material cost, that could get you in more competitive territory.
Do they have their IP in place? That’s got to get done or it will be near impossible to safely collaborate with well-funded ‘partners’ that could develop to a sellable core product. Can’t risk loosing control/ownership of the key improvements in motor design.
he showed the two layer design that uses more of the area of the cake and therefore saves even more weight and cost of materials and uses less space. if you look at the space usage of other pancake motors, you can see that they have a bigger diameter. but that is not convenient, if the space between the bottom of the trunk and the street is limited. where do you get 30cm if you need additional 10cm ground clearance and you want to have a battery above as well?
I'm not sure how much 'new' there is to learn in the electric motive space, but there may still be a good bit to uncover from the past. Perhaps this is an area that AI will help. It might be able to actually discover new physics.
Dear friends, I didn't understand much because I lack data and facts. But I am sure that with knowledge of Elaphe, Yasa, DeepDrive, Protean ... and its wheel motors, efficient motor vehicles for all terrains can be realized. Here is a video from Munro about the "unsprung mass": th-cam.com/video/OaC2pxmBmW8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CNhreE_YsI9vPnbS - Then there is Silence Acciona in Barcelona, which has been installing already one wheel motor for its S01 electric scooter since around 2018 and two rear wheel motors for its S04 cabin scooter since 2022, both for 100 km/h: th-cam.com/video/KSibHceploY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=s5xXxObuPsk0lF3m - I rode along for a bit and this "Nanocar" was quite powerful. It will also be more practical to assemble the car battery using several identical and handy battery modules instead of one heavy piece.
he had pictures that showed that his dual coil layer covers a bigger area of the cake compared to others like yasa or magnax who have their coils only on the outer side. if this is the only trick, well it saves a bit size and material. but thats all. if there are other effects involved that i didn't see, i don't know. the inner layer has the same amount of coils like the other layer which is good to use the same amount of phases from the inverter.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ?!!!!! I did it 30 years ago and even sold it for GM !!! As an example, just read the article about this By: Roger Rowand January 12, 1998 07:00 AM ORLANDO, Fla. - An Israeli company says it has developed an electric motor that is about the size of a pancake.
@@andykross7242 no, it is possible. these pancake motors exist. you can find advanced axial magnetic flux motors in ferrari hybrids and mercedes AMG cars. nothing new
not a good interview. I am sure you know about Yuasa motors and their work with Mercedes and Koenigsegg. not sure why you did not mention or compare these motors to theirs. is there some mechanical differences and performance differences that make either superior? I hear only sales pitch here. what is the IP that is different from other axial flux offerings? this makes it sound like Torev is the only manufacturer doing this while there are others that have their motors in production cars. so not impressed by this coverage and not sure why you have not done coverage on the complete product including the differences and advantages of this type of motor over those now commonly used. I am sure you have an engineer that could give a 2 or 3 min. intro on the differences. I look to autoline for real news on the auto industry, not marketing hype about companies without any follow up fact check. the same situation for your last one on solid state batteries. no collaborating info.you did good coverage on the cyber truck and other chinese ev's but have done very little on power train tech.
Please interview ScannerDanner 🙏 Why are Techs leaving the industry Please 👍 KNOWLEDGEABLE,Autoline Network From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 18:41PM Good Evening
That’s like saying doesn’t matter how great ice engines are until there are zero ice car fires…. Currently the EV fire rate is 61 times lower than ice and will continue to drop as the tech evolves
@@chrisg8995 yup in the time it took to watch this video? 5 ice cars burned DOWN here in the U.S. alone. Happens every 4 mins on average with over 217,000 alone in 2023 here. When I was a kid in the 80s some years were over 400,000 ice fires. The #1 open recall for ALL LEGACY ice oems is for the risk of FIRE even when parked right NOW effecting over 4,000,000 3-5year old vehicle's. And garages were originally detached structures because of ice vehicle fire risks. The #1 cause of fatalities in commercial vehicle collisions is also due to fires! It's a shame we can't community note smooth brained gasholes like the op here. 😀
If they spent same money on refining hydrogen they would have fuel for IC motors , Furl cells and electric motors without thousands pounds of batteries 🔋
What a joke. Why yall always have to burn something? lol . Hydrogen is for trucks and buses and comes with almost all the complexities of the ICE engine. Batteries are better and the more develop ment we get in that space the better and cheaper it will be to own .
@@Matthew.Sirrom the more range the more heavy batteries. 🪫 hydrogen 100% clean . Batteries as clean at powerplants coal, oil or gas . Solar and wind impossible to supply needed power supply.
@@Gadfly2025 hydrogen most commonly comes from fuel sources genius. It still requires electric motors and large batteries. And the catalysts are wear parts with platinum used in the construction. The tanks to hold it are specialist materials. The conversion efficiency is terrible and finally the infastructure doesn't exist globally to use it! Vs almost everywhere we have civilization? Well we have a grid and electricity of course. Heck every single oil refinery is hard wired right into the nearest power station!
there is nothing to refine. the hydrogen stuff is finished in development since decades. btw. you have the same electric motors and their problems in a vehicle with a hydrogen fuel cell.
@@Matthew.Sirrom no, hydrogen is also NOT for trucks and busses because the energy efficiency for them is even more important than for a car that stays around most of the time.
An inventor / entrepreneur with a sense of humor - How refreshing.
I love watching these shows. I learned so much, especially about startups. Using motors, I'm a control engineer. Great, but my start up is t-shirts. But it's almost all the same issues. Transportation development licensing. Warehousing, I'm tiny.I'm a one man wearhouse is my brother's garage.I'm cleaning out, but it is very informative.John the Highlander😊😊😊
How does Torev's motors compare to the numerous other companies that already make axial flux motors? Yasa, Magnax, Whylot, Sierra Motion, etc.
" ... the numerous other companies that already make axial flux motors? "
The only company that is shipping axial flux (AF) motors, but admittedly in modest numbers, is EMRAX. The others are building prototyping quantities. When I can place an order and receive a delivery date within a few weeks, I'll consider then as 'making axial flux motors'. Now that Mercedes has bought YASA we should soon be able to buy one of their vehicles using this technology, rumored to first appear in AMG high performance vehicles. Meanwhile, in China small AF motors are being built in the tens of thousands and huge ones, suitable for earth moving equipment, trucks and buses are in volume production. But none yet suitable for high volume compact to full size sedan range.
As Elon Musk discovered, building prototypes is easy compared to manufacturing in quantity.
I have been waiting for a US manufacturer to come online so I can buy from them. They all seem to only be prepared to collaborate with the legacy OEMs, which tells me they are still building prototypes.
Love starting my weekends with John McElroy!
There are other Axial Flux motors in use, how do these compare?
Numerous ones, this is nothing new
John, that was a very poor shot at answering your questions. The diagram and objects shown don't really show much at all. He talked about other people's axial flux motors when answering the power/mass question.
Torev has chosen to compete in a market that is already well served. Perhaps a licensing agreement will be possible for some key aspect of the technology.
Pancake motors could lead to simplified layouts for mass market vehicles. 80kW continuous is all 90% of the worlds automobiles need - 20kW/wheel.
It would be easy to package a two-part housing (upper and lower) for a drive unit that contained two 800V, 20 kW axial flux motors, two sets of planetary gears, two inboard brakes, oil cooling motor and filter, oil/water heat exchanger, and rack and pinion steering with a pair of motors of its own - the outputs would be two half-shafts, and two steering arms. The inverters and control circuits could go in a separate plastic box under the hood and be connected to the drive unit via a ribbon cable with wires of appropriate size for the various currents. Inboard brakes allow aero-shielding for better airflow around the wheels, although 'virtual ball' suspensions disrupt airflow as it is. A motor per wheel reduces energy loses. Permanent magnet motors either give or take power, they can't freewheel like induction motors, thus induction motors are often more efficient for motor/wheel drivetrains.
Torev and others should be focusing on delivering cheap, efficient, low power drivetrains for which the global market is probably 80 million units per year.
i found the IP - the two layers with a different radius very interesting. however, a similar approach with wedge shaped coils that covers a wider area of the diameter would also be possible. but maybe there is a benefit hidden in that two layer coil design hidden that i don't see. is there maybe a certain effect like the hallbach effect that might shape/fokus the magnetic field in a way that adds efficiency in one way or another?
Thanks, John. Since Torev won the GAMIC award, I'll take it as a given that the Intellectual Property that Rory/Torev has developed represents a significant step forward in the electromotive arts. I look forward to seeing how much progress Rory Brogan and his Torev startup can make in a year. As Elon Musk points out, prototyping is easy, manufacturing is hard.
That dated truism from Elon is pure irony. Considering the difference, between when he promises something and when he delivers (if he ever does deliver?)
By the way Mercedes-Benz already bought an axial flux motor company. None of this is new, it's just like EVs in general. It's a hundred year plus development process, that never ends.
That existed long before Elon and his cliche remarks, and will exist long after him. (I respect the engineers and engineering. But he just takes the credit from real engineers, while delivering nothing of substance himself)
@@nc3826 We all know Space X has delivered multiple cargo payloads to the ISS and humans too, meanwhile ULA and Boeing are still trying to figure out when their one week mission that has turned into 45 days and counting can come back, oh as Sandy Munro has seen and said Elon has engineering meetings and discussions with Space X Engineers and staff , he can and actually does do give input and make suggestions on solving issues and not just be a HIGH PAID TO CEO like some Legacy Auto CEO.
Use built in cold lasers to control the temperature of the motor so it doesn't overheat. Use a floating battery chamber in a vacuum chamber. Use reflective metals. The battery will not go bad in one of those vacuums for the winter. That's why tesla uses the batteries he does because of the vacuum the cold can't effect the health of the battery.
Very little information from this guy about what would make his motor any better than other axial field electric motors, produced by other companies already in the manufacturing phase. If there is something new and real, let’s hear what it is. Any relevant new patents? Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, Hyundai, even GM and Ford are making real vehicles right now with perfectly functional electric motors, not to mention BYD and the other Chinese companies cranking out millions of them every year.
I think he's referring to what you're asking for as ip.
Those automotive companies are making "real EVs", but based on radial flux, not axial flux.motors. So trolls that don't get that basic concept, are not going to understand any additional details, anyway.
Such as what he already stated that it requires less permanent magnets. And it won a coveted GAMIC award. Both of which are apparently beyond your comprehension. So good luck with that....
Don’t be a smartass. I have been an electrical engineer for 50 years. Electric motors are quite within my comprehension, including synchronous AC motors, encoders, and the IGBT or MOSFET inverters used to drive them. I also know the difference between substance and vapor. Maybe this guy is the smartest one-man motor designer since Faraday, but he seems to be talking about direct drive per wheel motors, when referring to real motors in production as spinning at “thousands of RPMs”. These are real motors in real cars in production by real companies on real production lines in real factories, are real right now, not next year or next decade. They propel real cars like the Tesla Model S Plaid from 0-60 mph in 2 seconds; three of them not four, not one at each wheel. If you have the money, you can buy one today. Comprehend that.
lmao, demanding an EE journal level of detail from an Autoline interview?
Thanks for proving my point.. And illustrating the difference between knowledge and wisdom.....
FWIW no one needs a toy going down the road from 0 to 60 in 2 seconds.... But more efficient lighter motors are definitely needed... Which is what the interview was all about.
It's sad if you're really an EE, since you sound more like an Elon zombie. With nothing of value to contribute to the conversation. Have fun trolling.
@@eddiegardner8232
I Roger that!
Innovation keeps going, EVs of the future are going to be amazing. Batteries and motors are making good progress, come on solar researchers get with it.
So let’s see a follow up in 12 months. See if this really comes to be a game changer.
not a game changer but saves material cost. but material cost is not the deciding factor as of now.
if you look at the motors from magnax or yasa(mercedes), the already are much lighter than other radial magnetic flux motors. because of that they should be cheaper in theory.
but because they are not cheaper in reality there must be a factor in production that makes it expensive.
that is the real problem so far.
of course, if you have a design that shapes off another 15% of the material cost, that could get you in more competitive territory.
Do they have their IP in place? That’s got to get done or it will be near impossible to safely collaborate with well-funded ‘partners’ that could develop to a sellable core product. Can’t risk loosing control/ownership of the key improvements in motor design.
Very interesting technology, great for hybrids mounting this motor between engine and transmission 😊❤
Or for adding pover to heavy haul trucks
Have each motor on a different gear. In unison.
Axial flux motor already in production on EVs. What is new here?
he showed the two layer design that uses more of the area of the cake and therefore saves even more weight and cost of materials and uses less space.
if you look at the space usage of other pancake motors, you can see that they have a bigger diameter. but that is not convenient, if the space between the bottom of the trunk and the street is limited. where do you get 30cm if you need additional 10cm ground clearance and you want to have a battery above as well?
@@stefanweilhartner4415almost all axial flux motors have two stators, one on each side of the rotor, that's quite the point of this type of motor.
@@GregHassler yes but there is no change to that in this new approach.
Focus on the gears. And the number of motors.
Was Autoline incentivized at all to do this interview?
Same question with Munro, even more so actually.
I'm not sure how much 'new' there is to learn in the electric motive space, but there may still be a good bit to uncover from the past. Perhaps this is an area that AI will help. It might be able to actually discover new physics.
Interesting - but until a price and actual use occurs it’s unknown if it’s better. ❤ ...As what if it’s very pricy?
Dear friends, I didn't understand much because I lack data and facts. But I am sure that with knowledge of Elaphe, Yasa, DeepDrive, Protean ... and its wheel motors, efficient motor vehicles for all terrains can be realized. Here is a video from Munro about the "unsprung mass": th-cam.com/video/OaC2pxmBmW8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CNhreE_YsI9vPnbS - Then there is Silence Acciona in Barcelona, which has been installing already one wheel motor for its S01 electric scooter since around 2018 and two rear wheel motors for its S04 cabin scooter since 2022, both for 100 km/h: th-cam.com/video/KSibHceploY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=s5xXxObuPsk0lF3m - I rode along for a bit and this "Nanocar" was quite powerful. It will also be more practical to assemble the car battery using several identical and handy battery modules instead of one heavy piece.
Interesting that they are based in the anti EV adoption part of the Country.
Would have liked some technical detail... but an exciting technology regardless....
he had pictures that showed that his dual coil layer covers a bigger area of the cake compared to others like yasa or magnax who have their coils only on the outer side. if this is the only trick, well it saves a bit size and material. but thats all. if there are other effects involved that i didn't see, i don't know. the inner layer has the same amount of coils like the other layer which is good to use the same amount of phases from the inverter.
Someday we'll have numbers instead of handwaving.
👍
Hello APTERA
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ?!!!!!
I did it 30 years ago and even sold it for GM !!!
As an example, just read the article about this
By:
Roger Rowand
January 12, 1998 07:00 AM
ORLANDO, Fla. - An Israeli company says it has developed an electric motor that is about the size of a pancake.
As soon as he said “How do we bring the cost down” I lost interest. Another product that needs more time in the lab.
not in the lab. regarding the lab, the work is finished/proven. from now on, it is "only" the production process.
So the hardest part, production, hasn’t been achieved yet. It may be too hard to automate and manufacture, which is an immediate killer.
@@andykross7242 no, it is possible. these pancake motors exist. you can find advanced axial magnetic flux motors in ferrari hybrids and mercedes AMG cars. nothing new
not a good interview. I am sure you know about Yuasa motors and their work with Mercedes and Koenigsegg. not sure why you did not mention or compare these motors to theirs. is there some mechanical differences and performance differences that make either superior? I hear only sales pitch here. what is the IP that is different from other axial flux offerings? this makes it sound like Torev is the only manufacturer doing this while there are others that have their motors in production cars. so not impressed by this coverage and not sure why you have not done coverage on the complete product including the differences and advantages of this type of motor over those now commonly used. I am sure you have an engineer that could give a 2 or 3 min. intro on the differences. I look to autoline for real news on the auto industry, not marketing hype about companies without any follow up fact check. the same situation for your last one on solid state batteries. no collaborating info.you did good coverage on the cyber truck and other chinese ev's but have done very little on power train tech.
Please interview ScannerDanner 🙏
Why are Techs leaving the industry
Please
👍
KNOWLEDGEABLE,Autoline Network
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 18:41PM Good Evening
Matters not how efficient an electric motor for EVs can be.
Until there are ZERO battery fires.
That’s like saying doesn’t matter how great ice engines are until there are zero ice car fires…. Currently the EV fire rate is 61 times lower than ice and will continue to drop as the tech evolves
@@chrisg8995 yup in the time it took to watch this video? 5 ice cars burned DOWN here in the U.S. alone. Happens every 4 mins on average with over 217,000 alone in 2023 here. When I was a kid in the 80s some years were over 400,000 ice fires.
The #1 open recall for ALL LEGACY ice oems is for the risk of FIRE even when parked right NOW effecting over 4,000,000 3-5year old vehicle's.
And garages were originally detached structures because of ice vehicle fire risks. The #1 cause of fatalities in commercial vehicle collisions is also due to fires! It's a shame we can't community note smooth brained gasholes like the op here. 😀
EVa are already 10x LESS likely to have a fire than a combustion engine vehicle, so that seems like a ridiculous statement.
Two gays talking a lot about old tech, popcorn 😂
If they spent same money on refining hydrogen they would have fuel for IC motors , Furl cells and electric motors without thousands pounds of batteries 🔋
What a joke. Why yall always have to burn something? lol . Hydrogen is for trucks and buses and comes with almost all the complexities of the ICE engine. Batteries are better and the more develop ment we get in that space the better and cheaper it will be to own .
@@Matthew.Sirrom the more range the more heavy batteries. 🪫 hydrogen 100% clean . Batteries as clean at powerplants coal, oil or gas . Solar and wind impossible to supply needed power supply.
@@Gadfly2025 hydrogen most commonly comes from fuel sources genius. It still requires electric motors and large batteries.
And the catalysts are wear parts with platinum used in the construction. The tanks to hold it are specialist materials.
The conversion efficiency is terrible and finally the infastructure doesn't exist globally to use it! Vs almost everywhere we have civilization?
Well we have a grid and electricity of course. Heck every single oil refinery is hard wired right into the nearest power station!
there is nothing to refine. the hydrogen stuff is finished in development since decades.
btw. you have the same electric motors and their problems in a vehicle with a hydrogen fuel cell.
@@Matthew.Sirrom no, hydrogen is also NOT for trucks and busses because the energy efficiency for them is even more important than for a car that stays around most of the time.