I met some of the Elaphe team when they came to the Fully Charged show in San Diego at the reveal of the Gamma model Aptera. They had spent years developing the in-wheel motor to be smooth, powerful, efficient, and reliable under truly harsh conditions. Plus Elaphe refined their motor design further in the Aptera to be very light, and to take advantage of the Aptera's lighter and more aerodynamic body reducing unsprung weight, and increasing efficiency even further. Still, I can understand why Aptera neded to shift to a more standard and proven E-axle motor, with the built in gearset and control electronics, to more easily bring the Aptera to production in 2025. But I still think that the door is open for Elaphe to provide an in-wheel motor for the rear wheel in a future AWD model. 🚗🌞
So great to see our Slovenian company so successful in the EV world, developing new technology 😊❤❤ Great video, and Elaphe can't wait to see your products on the road 😊
Aptera was considering using these motors, but they would have had to find or create an inverter that would work in their cars. In the end, they decided to go with a more traditional motor. So, to speed up production, they had to ditch the in-wheel motor. In their case, the motor was not yet ready for prime time. They said that they are still looking at perhaps using the motor on the rear wheel, but that is far off into the future. The concept, nevertheless, is interesting and bears consideration. Thanks for keeping us up to date on new developments, and I hope you and your team continue to follow this technology, as I think it does have a future.
What I don't understand is why Aptera couldn't turn to Elaphe itself to develop the inverters. The shift to the Vitesco powertrain will almost certainly cause a significant hit in Aptera's efficiency, which is Aptera's whole purpose.
In construction/earthmoving equipment the hub motors are typically hydraulic, not electric. And since they rarely have articulated suspension, there's no (minimal) relative movement of the hydraulic lines feeding the motors. Not familiar with drive layout in diesel electric trains, but suspect it's similar in relatively fixed placement. Flexing of electric cables is an issue with hub motors, as is protection from damage caused by accidents and road debris. Extremely fast fault detection and power shutdown controls are needed to prevent electrocution risks or explosion of battery packs. It's not a trivial matter...
Elaphe was really unfortunate with two companies going bankrupt, especially the Lightyear One would've been a great showcase for their technology. With BMW looking into inwheel motors by Deepdrive and Conti developing an integrated brake system, the technology seems to be right on the brink to brake into the consumer market. In the end it's all about reliability and costs.
I wish them well. Looks like water, cold temps, power delivery are under control. But the big issue that I would ask any in-wheel designer is heat management. The break rotors can get white hot from hard breaking: how are the motor components such as the rare earth magnets protected?
From what I can tell, their design minimizes the impact of brake disc heat on rotor magnets. The water-cooled stator sits between the brake disc and rotor, acting as a thermal barrier.
To get the unsprung weight out I was wondering with regen braking if they could reduce the size of, or eliminate the conventional brakes. Also, for a Robitaxi type vehicle could they eliminate the trasmission because of the lower required top speed.
I can’t remember the manufacturer, but this was tried before and I believe it failed miserably. Hopefully, these guys come up with a better wheel mounted motor.
@Carguytct Lordstown also used Elaphe in-wheel motors and they say that at 6:50 , but think their failure was for different reasons (product/market fit, financial & management issues)
Lordstown Motors? lmao.... You're over 100 years late.... check the post... they have been around just like EVs since the beginning... There's no such thing as a new idea... And there's no such thing as a bad idea, just inappropriate ones... @Carguytct
Please do a follow-up video on hub motors with Munro (or similar). Compare Elaphe's technology with other hub motors that are or have been in production (in past 5 years). Focus on cars.
I can see some applications where inwheel motors would eogk quite well lIke buses ,cargo trucks and motor homes, trailers both small and transport type
The hub motors offer many advantages. I believe there have been offerings of 350# of torque per wheel. If the unsprung weight issue can be addressed, I think hub motors would become one of the lowest cost options. I don't believe the unsprung weight factor is a fatal flaw. Just another option. Always best to have options. 😉
Kyle Nelson: Wrong again, on both counts.... And Samuel Clemens said, Thanks for proving his point...
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@@nc3826 Ok then, design a road vehicle with hub motors and give us a download link with the specifications and blueprints. Have your circular argument point prover help you out if needed.
A true wheel motor is something to mount a standard tire to. A hub motor will accept a standard wheel. This appears to be a hub motor and not a wheel motor. Please correct me if i am wrong.
@@nc3826 For the uninitiated like myself! 😂 “Pedantic” a : one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge b : one who makes a show of knowledge c : a formalist or precisionist in teaching
When I lived in Paris, someone broke into our parking garage and punctured all four of my neighbor's tires. A month later, they came back and stole his wheels with brand-new tires. Paris 5è.🤦♂️
The mass of a drive motor should be at the center of the longitudinal axis, with brake disks and rotation speed encoders on each side, and lightweight tubular axles going to lightweight wheels and hubs. Friction brake heat will be minimized by motor regeneration braking, so the wheel well can be optimized for minimum aero drag rather than brake cooling at the wheel. Keeping the unsprung weight as light as possible in this manner will improve tracking compliance, ride, NVH, centrifugal rotation inertia, and tire wear and drag. Wheel motors large and torquey enough for road speed cars would be a bad idea.
Once again you your are talking about something that a back yard builder can’t get his hands on. It sounds just like what I’m looking for to put on a project I’m working on. But I will have to get my components off of Copart because things like this are not offered to anyone other that a OEM
Car components live in a very punishing environment; not just water, but tremendous heat, vibration, and sharp inertial forces probably nowhere moreso than at the wheels. (This is one reason we're still using balloon tires rather than modern redesign attempts.) Think of what this motor must face when striking a pothole at speed, washboard pavements, or glowing red from heavy braking.
works wonderfully in electric mopeds - see the hundreds of millions on the streets in china. but on cars the trade-offs invert and it becomes a fool’s errand.
Horrible design! Too much weight at the wheel & over complicates the hub. If you insist on an EV power train, send it through a transmission or directly connect it to a differential. Why try to reinvent the wheel? Keep it simple & work with proven designs. Just my 2 cents. God speed.
True four wheel drive w/o a transmission has incredible potential. The car's computer can monitor each wheel for traction and the like and adjust each wheel independently based on traction needs, for example. I agree, however, that the un-sprung weight on each wheel would be high, this impacting how well the suspension works. This solution would likely have potential for low-end cars that just need to work, but perhaps not idea for high end performance cars.
@fpartidafpartida Adding complexity isn't a solution for little gain if any. It is meant for marketing than anything else. Just as Hydrogen isn't a solution for cars and that is a fact. But many still experiment with it as it would still use an engine. That is the end goal and not for practically. When presenting facts people like yourself don't get it.
Everything has trade-offs and this is nothing new as Illustrated in the post.... “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so”.... Except of course if you're a YT expert ;)
It’s really all about “unsprung weight”. With carbon fibre technology for wheels, and more lightweight compounds for tires, coupled with efficiencies to be gained in electronics and magnetics, I’m sure this is a “technology of the future”. Manned flight was IMPOSSIBLE until it wasn’t
Wheel motors are the dumbest idea ever!!! TOO MUCH UNSPRUNG WEIGHT AT THE WHEEL AND TO MUCH VIBRATION FOR MOTOR TO OPERATE RELIABLY!!! Plus TOO MUCH TORQUE ON THE SUSPENSION COMPONENTS!!!
Torque is not the issue. Every car has brakes that are capable of generating more torque than their motor can output, and that load goes through the suspension into the chassis except for very (very!) rare cases of inboard brakes. Structural stiffness to maintain proper orientation of the motor rotor and stator is an issue, but one that can be solved with proper engineering. Ditto vibration mitigation.
@@robocowone464 And that's what engineering is for - to design the bearing elements, knuckle, and other load carriers to deal with those loads. Just as has been done for automobiles and trucks for over a hundred years.
Thank you for hosting us.
I met some of the Elaphe team when they came to the Fully Charged show in San Diego at the reveal of the Gamma model Aptera. They had spent years developing the in-wheel motor to be smooth, powerful, efficient, and reliable under truly harsh conditions. Plus Elaphe refined their motor design further in the Aptera to be very light, and to take advantage of the Aptera's lighter and more aerodynamic body reducing unsprung weight, and increasing efficiency even further. Still, I can understand why Aptera neded to shift to a more standard and proven E-axle motor, with the built in gearset and control electronics, to more easily bring the Aptera to production in 2025. But I still think that the door is open for Elaphe to provide an in-wheel motor for the rear wheel in a future AWD model. 🚗🌞
So great to see our Slovenian company so successful in the EV world, developing new technology 😊❤❤
Great video, and Elaphe can't wait to see your products on the road 😊
Thank you.
Aptera was considering using these motors, but they would have had to find or create an inverter that would work in their cars. In the end, they decided to go with a more traditional motor. So, to speed up production, they had to ditch the in-wheel motor. In their case, the motor was not yet ready for prime time. They said that they are still looking at perhaps using the motor on the rear wheel, but that is far off into the future. The concept, nevertheless, is interesting and bears consideration. Thanks for keeping us up to date on new developments, and I hope you and your team continue to follow this technology, as I think it does have a future.
What I don't understand is why Aptera couldn't turn to Elaphe itself to develop the inverters.
The shift to the Vitesco powertrain will almost certainly cause a significant hit in Aptera's efficiency, which is Aptera's whole purpose.
@@robertkirchner7981 Good question, which they did not address in any detail.
They couldnt provide the quantity required.
@@robertkirchner7981"a significant hit in Aptera's efficiency" Hyperbole.
Hub motors have been in use on diesel electric trains and earth moving equipment since the mid 20th century and they work great in both applications.
Sure, but none of those care about Noise, Vibration, or Harshness (NVH), or handling, both of which care about unsprung weight sitting in the wheels.
Railroads don't have potholes!!!
@@wyw876 My point without actually saying it and pointing out the fact that it's not new technology.
Large trucks like Belaz use them as well
In construction/earthmoving equipment the hub motors are typically hydraulic, not electric. And since they rarely have articulated suspension, there's no (minimal) relative movement of the hydraulic lines feeding the motors. Not familiar with drive layout in diesel electric trains, but suspect it's similar in relatively fixed placement.
Flexing of electric cables is an issue with hub motors, as is protection from damage caused by accidents and road debris. Extremely fast fault detection and power shutdown controls are needed to prevent electrocution risks or explosion of battery packs. It's not a trivial matter...
Hope they get these things on the road. They seem a fantastic opportunity for self repair if nothing else. I hope they can get past the challenges.
Elaphe was really unfortunate with two companies going bankrupt, especially the Lightyear One would've been a great showcase for their technology. With BMW looking into inwheel motors by Deepdrive and Conti developing an integrated brake system, the technology seems to be right on the brink to brake into the consumer market. In the end it's all about reliability and costs.
I wish them well. Looks like water, cold temps, power delivery are under control. But the big issue that I would ask any in-wheel designer is heat management. The break rotors can get white hot from hard breaking: how are the motor components such as the rare earth magnets protected?
From what I can tell, their design minimizes the impact of brake disc heat on rotor magnets. The water-cooled stator sits between the brake disc and rotor, acting as a thermal barrier.
The natural application is HD Hiway trucks. 2,4,or 6 motors. Additional motors used in some of the wheels as brakes and recharging
To get the unsprung weight out I was wondering with regen braking if they could reduce the size of, or eliminate the conventional brakes. Also, for a Robitaxi type vehicle could they eliminate the trasmission because of the lower required top speed.
I can’t remember the manufacturer, but this was tried before and I believe it failed miserably. Hopefully, these guys come up with a better wheel mounted motor.
It was Lordstown Motors. Wheel Hub motors seems like a bad idea.
Yamaha have it since 2021, Toyota testing them. no news about the progress.
@Carguytct Lordstown also used Elaphe in-wheel motors and they say that at 6:50 , but think their failure was for different reasons (product/market fit, financial & management issues)
Lordstown Motors? lmao.... You're over 100 years late.... check the post... they have been around just like EVs since the beginning... There's no such thing as a new idea...
And there's no such thing as a bad idea, just inappropriate ones... @Carguytct
Please do a follow-up video on hub motors with Munro (or similar).
Compare Elaphe's technology with other hub motors
that are or have been in production (in past 5 years).
Focus on cars.
I can see some applications where inwheel motors would eogk quite well lIke buses ,cargo trucks and motor homes, trailers both small and transport type
How did Elaphe fail to meet Aptera’s production delivery schedule?
What happened between Elaphe and Aptera?
The hub motors offer many advantages. I believe there have been offerings of 350# of torque per wheel. If the unsprung weight issue can be addressed, I think hub motors would become one of the lowest cost options. I don't believe the unsprung weight factor is a fatal flaw. Just another option. Always best to have options. 😉
Vehicle architecture embrace wheel motor concept only engineers hate it.
Because only engineers know the compromises involved and realize it's impractical.
Kyle Nelson: “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so”
@@nc3826 Circular argument.
Kyle Nelson: Wrong again, on both counts.... And Samuel Clemens said, Thanks for proving his point...
@@nc3826 Ok then, design a road vehicle with hub motors and give us a download link with the specifications and blueprints. Have your circular argument point prover help you out if needed.
A true wheel motor is something to mount a standard tire to. A hub motor will accept a standard wheel. This appears to be a hub motor and not a wheel motor. Please correct me if i am wrong.
pedantic distinction without a difference
@@nc3826
For the uninitiated like myself! 😂
“Pedantic”
a
: one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge
b
: one who makes a show of knowledge
c
: a formalist or precisionist in teaching
@@RayNLA "a" :)
@@RayNLA "a" ;)
@@RayNLA "a" ;)
Lordstown 2
The benefit over the alternatives is nor clear
Instead of wire to hub wheel they could use inductive energy transfer without contact.
Brilliant invention. Totally disregards bicycles have been using hub motors forever.
When I lived in Paris, someone broke into our parking garage and punctured all four of my neighbor's tires. A month later, they came back and stole his wheels with brand-new tires. Paris 5è.🤦♂️
The mass of a drive motor should be at the center of the longitudinal axis, with brake disks and rotation speed encoders on each side, and lightweight tubular axles going to lightweight wheels and hubs. Friction brake heat will be minimized by motor regeneration braking, so the wheel well can be optimized for minimum aero drag rather than brake cooling at the wheel. Keeping the unsprung weight as light as possible in this manner will improve tracking compliance, ride, NVH, centrifugal rotation inertia, and tire wear and drag. Wheel motors large and torquey enough for road speed cars would be a bad idea.
Once again you your are talking about something that a back yard builder can’t get his hands on. It sounds just like what I’m looking for to put on a project I’m working on. But I will have to get my components off of Copart because things like this are not offered to anyone other that a OEM
Car components live in a very punishing environment; not just water, but tremendous heat, vibration, and sharp inertial forces probably nowhere moreso than at the wheels. (This is one reason we're still using balloon tires rather than modern redesign attempts.) Think of what this motor must face when striking a pothole at speed, washboard pavements, or glowing red from heavy braking.
works wonderfully in electric mopeds - see the hundreds of millions on the streets in china. but on cars the trade-offs invert and it becomes a fool’s errand.
The guests' bad (no, awful) sound makes good video look bad.
Horrible design! Too much weight at the wheel & over complicates the hub. If you insist on an EV power train, send it through a transmission or directly connect it to a differential. Why try to reinvent the wheel? Keep it simple & work with proven designs. Just my 2 cents. God speed.
Thank goodness innovative engineers don't think like you or zero progress would be made over time. "Just do what we have always done". 🙄
True four wheel drive w/o a transmission has incredible potential. The car's computer can monitor each wheel for traction and the like and adjust each wheel independently based on traction needs, for example. I agree, however, that the un-sprung weight on each wheel would be high, this impacting how well the suspension works. This solution would likely have potential for low-end cars that just need to work, but perhaps not idea for high end performance cars.
@fpartidafpartida Adding complexity isn't a solution for little gain if any. It is meant for marketing than anything else. Just as Hydrogen isn't a solution for cars and that is a fact. But many still experiment with it as it would still use an engine. That is the end goal and not for practically. When presenting facts people like yourself don't get it.
Everything has trade-offs and this is nothing new as Illustrated in the post.... “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so”.... Except of course if you're a YT expert ;)
It’s really all about “unsprung weight”. With carbon fibre technology for wheels, and more lightweight compounds for tires, coupled with efficiencies to be gained in electronics and magnetics, I’m sure this is a “technology of the future”.
Manned flight was IMPOSSIBLE until it wasn’t
It may work for ebikes but probably not for cars
thx for the 20/20 YT expert hindsight, on the topic
Wheel motors are the dumbest idea ever!!! TOO MUCH UNSPRUNG WEIGHT AT THE WHEEL AND TO MUCH VIBRATION FOR MOTOR TO OPERATE RELIABLY!!! Plus TOO MUCH TORQUE ON THE SUSPENSION COMPONENTS!!!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so”
Torque is not the issue. Every car has brakes that are capable of generating more torque than their motor can output, and that load goes through the suspension into the chassis except for very (very!) rare cases of inboard brakes.
Structural stiffness to maintain proper orientation of the motor rotor and stator is an issue, but one that can be solved with proper engineering. Ditto vibration mitigation.
0 vibrations - i drive one - weight can be reduced by half with new design and better engineering
@@marong3717 The vibration I am talk about is from the road surface/ potholes!!!
@@robocowone464 And that's what engineering is for - to design the bearing elements, knuckle, and other load carriers to deal with those loads. Just as has been done for automobiles and trucks for over a hundred years.
One winter in Michigan, that wheel is done.
It seems they can handle winter just fine: th-cam.com/video/qGvRUGYSgN0/w-d-xo.html
scam
Fail