I’ve not had such a scientific approach as you, and had a pretty basic 5w output diode to start with, and have put the diode closer for darker / deeper outcomes from the start. Never thought it was anything unusual
Instead of using borax, I’ve started to backfill engravings with FEP powder coat and then heat seal it with a heat gun. It works great and can give you color options. FEP powder coat paints are also food grade safe so be needles to worry.
Thanks. I'm okay with using Borax. (Any other old folks in here, who remember Ronald Reagan's 20 Mule Team Borax commercials?) I always give it a coat of clear spray, before I do ANYTHING with it. Otherwise, that soot will get everywhere.
As a lawyer representing big Borax I must object to your continuous disparagement of the fine tradition of Borax lazer making darkerness. This campaign of saving makers from having to run to the grocery to *gasp* buy borax like we do our own laundry cannot stand. (oh, and thanks for this tip...brilliant!)
@LetsMakeAThing if I'm not mistaken, when Thomas Edison worked on the light bulb, he was asked if he felt like a failure for the first 1000 failures. He replied, "I didn't fail 1,000 times. The light bulb was an invention with 1,000 steps."
So basically using borax mixture is probably more accurate and better for darker engravings over defocusing the laser. I mean it seems like having to spend a lot of time figuring out what the proper focus would have to be to get dark engravings it would just be easier to use a borax solution.
It took me about an hour to run all the tests to find the sweet spot for the engraving. Time well spent in my opinion, because I'm no longer using any chemicals on my engravings. Also, I don't have to worry about sealing the piece to make sure the soot from the Borax doesn't rub off because that's all you're doing with Borax is making darker soot that can easily rub off if you don't seal it in. For many people in Europe it's harder to get Borax and for them, defocusing is a better alternative.
@@LetsMakeAThing That hour spent testing wouldn't fly in a production environment. The borax solution is very weak, but could be substituted with other very weak household base ingredients by the intuitive. Borax is only potential dangerous in high concentrations,, whereby it CAN cause a burning sensation on your skin, more severe in the eyes (duh), and you don't want to ingest it. The 10% solution used for engraving is rather innocuous. Has anyone tried baking soda or a salt solution? Everything is comprised of chemicals and borax is one of the least toxic of the household array, although it is still toxic on some levels, depending on how it is used, so alway wear gloves. The point is, there are always alternatives. Vinegar or lemon juice might be a way to go.
@@LetsMakeAThing I don't understand the Borax situatiion in the EU, especially in Germany. On Wikipedia it says: it's forbidden to sell to private end users. On the other hand it's allowed to used as a food additive (E 285). You can buy it online everywhere. I don't know whats wrong or right. The only thing I know is that there's no problem to buy it in Europe (Germany).
@PacesIII actually R&D is well worth it in the long run. I cut my teeth on a cnc machine years before the average person knew what one was. The time spent testing like this put me way ahead of my competitors running 150k machines with my 7 k setup.
De focusing technique makes it darker but you loose the depth and tactile feel it creates. For that reason I like to stick to properly focused method with or without borax!
Information: Laser engraving is etching or indenting the surface, correct? Laser engraving foil- Does it cut into the surface and attach the foil within the endention or does it only attach the foil on the surface?
The laser only engraves the surface it doesn't attach anything. Basically, it removes material from whatever you're engraving by burning it away. In my other video, where I do foil inlay, I glued the foil in by hand. The laser was only used to remove material. Hope this helps!
Even with air assist and an enclosure with a 4 inch duct extraction fan I still get soot with Borax. I don't even mess with Borax anymore because this method works so much better. I am curious though, what wood seems to work best for you?
Hi ! Instead of your method, here a suggestion to increase your distance : put a 1mm thick material on top of the thing you want to engrave, before you do the first focusing, then remove this 1mm thick material and tadaaaaa you are 1 mm further ! It seems way easier to me like this, but i may have missed something, please tell me (and excuse me for my bad english language, i'm from another country) And thx for this video, great advice, that helps me a lot !
Thanks for the tip! I was using the calipers in this video just to get measurements for the test. I don't use them to focus my laser. I use the method you suggested with a material that I know the thickness of. I have a different laser now that doesn't have the focus know so I use blocks that I know the thickness of to focus. I just released a new video related to defocusing your laser where I use the method you suggested. You can check it out here: th-cam.com/video/GQ0VTQZMc9M/w-d-xo.html
I used the calipers to determine the optimal focus distance and then made a spacer to use as you suggested. I don't think I showed it in the video though.
The whole point of using Borax is that you only need 20% of the power that you would normally use to get the same results. No distortion. Diode lasers work great with Borax. Stick to Borax and save on electricity.
Oh that is awesome! Sadly I don't have access to a fiber laser, but hopefully one day I'll get the chance to mess around with one! Thanks for the comment!
Great question! When you slow down or increase the power you increase the amount of material being removed from the piece. So in many cases you'll end up with a deeper engraving that still isn't dark. At some point you will start over burning the material and it will get darker, but so will the surrounding areas which is not desirable.
Yes, cross hatching will darken as it's essentially doing two passes, the second pass perpendicular to first. The issue with cross hatching is that it essentially doubles the engraving time because the laser is making two passes over the same area.
Your caution about laser light is correct but in this case totally wrong. Laser beams by their very nature are coherent beams of light and do not have the ability to jump out at you. They travel in straight lines. Unless you can get your eye (or your finger) into line with the laser beam, which I think is pretty impossible with an 8mm gap, then your eyes will not be damaged by the laser beam itself. However, the reason you would want to wear eye protection is for two completey different resons that people don't speak about. First, when the laser beam strikes your material the exothermic reactions that results when the beam heats the material generates a bright light that is has dangerous high levels of UVB and UVC radiation. UVC in particular can damage human tissue of any sort (especially eyes). Ordinary polycarbonate clear safety glasses (not glass) will absorb UVC and protect your eyes. BUT there is a second risk to your sight.....light intensity. Would you look at the sun for more than half a second or watch arc welding? So in that case you need a reasonably strong tint to the polycarbonate to attenuate the intensity. Understand and respect a laser beam, do not fear it.
Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge! When I was talking about running without the guard and wearing glasses it was due to long term exposure to the laser intensity over time. I didn't take the time to explain in the video it was due to the light intensity as the video was focused on the dark engraving process and I felt that a simple "don't try this at home" was sufficient.
@@LetsMakeAThing Thanks for understanding that no criticism was intended or implied.. Sharing facts about laser safety is essential because too many of my corespondents have already spent anything for $20 to almost $100 on "laser" safety goggles before they ask questions With virtually all CO2 lasers, close the lid and you dont need any safety glasses . Sadly the same is not true for the unguarded diode lasers but good sunglasses will provide adequate protection. I know it can be hypmnotic to watch your laser but dont for more than a few seconds at a time.
@@SarbarMultimedia Don't worry, I never watch my laser unguarded. All the shots in my videos are done wearing protective glasses and letting the camera film the action. You do bring up a good point though and I will probably mention this in a future video about not staring at the laser. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge, I really appreciate it!
@@MileyonDisney After 10 years using various lasers, it took time to get used to my braille keyboard. Seriously though, In the past year I have taken to studying various powers of diode laser and am now playing with a 40 watt head, Of all the lasers I have used, the diode is the most dangerous to your eyes. Its not the laser beam itself but the hideous light intensity of the ionized material around the laser contact spot. ALL the laser energy is going into damaging the material so there is zero risk of your eyes being damaged by the laser beam itself. Remember simple science says that light travels in straingt lines so it's not going to somehow turn 90 degrees and "bite" you. The real danger is the intense random non-laser light. You would not look at the sun or a welding arc without eye protection, so good dark sunglasses are perfectly adequate. There is nothing else dangerous about the light, just its intensity. however, I would always limit viewing it to a few seconds at a time.
First, I'd like to say that I'm learning laser engraving/cutting right now, that's why I'm curious, don't get me wrong... (also I'm not english) Maybe I'm wrong, but... aren't you just making the dot bigger. If you don't change settings, then the laser scanning lines are overlapping... That's why it's darker. You could just increase LPI and the result should be similar... Some users are getting the same result lowering the laser instead and that could prove my point since the laser beam is like >< where the optiomal focus is the center (small dot) and it becomes larger if not in focus (either raising the laser or lowering it) Since you talk about this (more or less) in 6:30 it looks like you already know it... Then, what's the advantage of defocusing the laser instead of changing LPI and power?
It's a good question. In terms of speed changing LPI makes it run slower. The more lines per inch the longer it takes. This method gets a darker burn without increasing the engraving time.
I've been doing engravings using this method for months now and haven't noticed any loss of detail. In my next video I do several detailed engravings with a defocused laser and they all came out great. Of course I'm biased, so check out the new video next week and let me know if you think there is loss of detail.
Thanks for the comment! For me, if I'm making an engraving for appearance sake, I'm more concerned about how dark it is versus how deep it is and I didn't even think about this. I might make a future video testing how much de-focusing the laser affects depth of engrave.
As defocusing lasers results in bigger dots, you will destroy your resolution. As with CO2 Lasers a lot more as the dot is naturally bigger at that wavelength. Photo engraving on a CO2 Laser is theoretically best at 254 LPI, as the beam is 0.1mm (if perfect, but thats rare even with very expensive machines). With my old Red&Black KH7050 i ran about 200 LPI with the latest method of Russ Sadler (Concise RDWorks Learning Lab Series, Session 25-27 and later). If i defocus my laser by only 0.5mm i will lose a lot of my resolution. Of course, the image will be darker, but it will lose a lot of detail too if i dont correct the LPI to lower than 200. If you only do bigger text or bold graphics, thats a small problem, but if you want photos, you need the sharpest and smallest laser dot you can get.
This video was a lot of fun to make. I was really surprised that this method works for diode lasers. Well, mostly works. If you have any ideas for more testing with this method leave me a comment!
This method should work fine with vector images like an SVG file. I'm waiting for my Xtool D1 Pro 10W to arrive so learning as much as I can beforehand. I am familiar with Fiber Lasers though.
The point of the video was a method that gave a darker engraving without slowing down or changing power. I probably would get a better effect on the image if I had slowed down but I didn't feel that way in the spirit of this video. I will definitely try again in the future using a slower speed.
I do laser engraving as a profession. I have a CO2 laser and a fiber laser. With wood, I go up to 12mm out of focus. However, then the speed has to be reduced significantly. Since the power is brought to a larger spot. Of course, you could also increase the power. But reducing the speed is often better. Since you want to transfer the out of focus trick to the diode laser, it would be logical to reduce the speed here as well.
![Testing A Substitute For Borax For Darker Laser Engraving [not borax substitute]](/img/n.gif)
Great advise thanks. What I found on my diode is to cover the area with normal masking tape. This darkens the area with normal focus as well
Thanks for sharing!
I’ve not had such a scientific approach as you, and had a pretty basic 5w output diode to start with, and have put the diode closer for darker / deeper outcomes from the start. Never thought it was anything unusual
Instead of using borax, I’ve started to backfill engravings with FEP powder coat and then heat seal it with a heat gun. It works great and can give you color options. FEP powder coat paints are also food grade safe so be needles to worry.
That's an awesome idea! Thanks for sharing!
If I may ask, where do you buy FEP powder coating paints in small sizes?
that only works with monotone images, innit?
@@boruchlen I just ordered 4 ounces from Amazon.
@fretworkpeddler great to know! Thank you for your reply.
I just ordered my first engraver! Thanks for sharing your knowledge! And I like your cinematography!
Thank you! Enjoy your new laser!
Thanks. I'm okay with using Borax. (Any other old folks in here, who remember Ronald Reagan's 20 Mule Team Borax commercials?) I always give it a coat of clear spray, before I do ANYTHING with it. Otherwise, that soot will get everywhere.
I get better results when I move the focus closer to the wood. Discovered it by accident because I did not tighten the module properly.
I will have to give that a try! Thanks for sharing!
Simply use salt water. It’s all about getting crystals in there that preserve the heat and burn longer, thus giving darker results.
Tried the change you mentioned and it definitely makes the image darker, plus more sharper. The added sharpness was a nice surprise.
Glad it was helpful!
As a lawyer representing big Borax I must object to your continuous disparagement of the fine tradition of Borax lazer making darkerness. This campaign of saving makers from having to run to the grocery to *gasp* buy borax like we do our own laundry cannot stand. (oh, and thanks for this tip...brilliant!)
Objection your honor! Who actually goes to a store to buy anything these days? 🤣
Glad you found this useful!
Great video! If we don't test, we'll never know!
Thank you so much! You're absolutely right - testing and exploring new ideas is crucial for discovery and growth!
@LetsMakeAThing if I'm not mistaken, when Thomas Edison worked on the light bulb, he was asked if he felt like a failure for the first 1000 failures. He replied, "I didn't fail 1,000 times. The light bulb was an invention with 1,000 steps."
Very cool thank you for sharing your results and giving out more laser knowledge
Thank you! Glad you found it useful!
I care! Great job! Thank you and I’ve subscribed. Beginner, excited!
Thank you!
So basically using borax mixture is probably more accurate and better for darker engravings over defocusing the laser. I mean it seems like having to spend a lot of time figuring out what the proper focus would have to be to get dark engravings it would just be easier to use a borax solution.
It took me about an hour to run all the tests to find the sweet spot for the engraving. Time well spent in my opinion, because I'm no longer using any chemicals on my engravings. Also, I don't have to worry about sealing the piece to make sure the soot from the Borax doesn't rub off because that's all you're doing with Borax is making darker soot that can easily rub off if you don't seal it in. For many people in Europe it's harder to get Borax and for them, defocusing is a better alternative.
@@LetsMakeAThing
That hour spent testing wouldn't fly in a production environment. The borax solution is very weak, but could be substituted with other very weak household base ingredients by the intuitive. Borax is only potential dangerous in high concentrations,, whereby it CAN cause a burning sensation on your skin, more severe in the eyes (duh), and you don't want to ingest it. The 10% solution used for engraving is rather innocuous. Has anyone tried baking soda or a salt solution? Everything is comprised of chemicals and borax is one of the least toxic of the household array, although it is still toxic on some levels, depending on how it is used, so alway wear gloves. The point is, there are always alternatives. Vinegar or lemon juice might be a way to go.
@@LetsMakeAThing I don't understand the Borax situatiion in the EU, especially in Germany. On Wikipedia it says: it's forbidden to sell to private end users. On the other hand it's allowed to used as a food additive (E 285). You can buy it online everywhere. I don't know whats wrong or right. The only thing I know is that there's no problem to buy it in Europe (Germany).
@PacesIII actually R&D is well worth it in the long run. I cut my teeth on a cnc machine years before the average person knew what one was. The time spent testing like this put me way ahead of my competitors running 150k machines with my 7 k setup.
What about halftones? Could you not keep the power high and have it work roughly the same as with solids?
That's a great idea, will have to give that a try!
De focusing technique makes it darker but you loose the depth and tactile feel it creates. For that reason I like to stick to properly focused method with or without borax!
Great videos! Thank you for sharing.
Thank you! Glad you find them useful!
Information: Laser engraving is etching or indenting the surface, correct? Laser engraving foil- Does it cut into the surface and attach the foil within the endention or does it only attach the foil on the surface?
The laser only engraves the surface it doesn't attach anything. Basically, it removes material from whatever you're engraving by burning it away. In my other video, where I do foil inlay, I glued the foil in by hand. The laser was only used to remove material. Hope this helps!
I use a small fan to blow the smoke away I find that the type of wood makes the biggest difference. 😀🛫
Even with air assist and an enclosure with a 4 inch duct extraction fan I still get soot with Borax. I don't even mess with Borax anymore because this method works so much better. I am curious though, what wood seems to work best for you?
yes what wood works best for you?
I've been defocusing for a long time now. I think I heard about it on TH-cam like a year ago.
It's a great technique!
I agree with 30mm.. more deep darker and no residue on laser head
Thanks for the comment!
With my Z axis adjuster, 1/4 turn is about 1mm
Thanks for the info! I should measure mine and see if it's about the same.
Hi ! Instead of your method, here a suggestion to increase your distance : put a 1mm thick material on top of the thing you want to engrave, before you do the first focusing, then remove this 1mm thick material and tadaaaaa you are 1 mm further !
It seems way easier to me like this, but i may have missed something, please tell me (and excuse me for my bad english language, i'm from another country)
And thx for this video, great advice, that helps me a lot !
Thanks for the tip! I was using the calipers in this video just to get measurements for the test. I don't use them to focus my laser. I use the method you suggested with a material that I know the thickness of. I have a different laser now that doesn't have the focus know so I use blocks that I know the thickness of to focus. I just released a new video related to defocusing your laser where I use the method you suggested. You can check it out here: th-cam.com/video/GQ0VTQZMc9M/w-d-xo.html
A tapered gauge or gauge blocks would work.
Rather than using calipers I would just use the laser focusing arm, and place shims under it.
I used the calipers to determine the optimal focus distance and then made a spacer to use as you suggested. I don't think I showed it in the video though.
The whole point of using Borax is that you only need 20% of the power that you would normally use to get the same results. No distortion. Diode lasers work great with Borax. Stick to Borax and save on electricity.
I get different colors on stainless by defocusing my fiber laser
Oh that is awesome! Sadly I don't have access to a fiber laser, but hopefully one day I'll get the chance to mess around with one! Thanks for the comment!
@@LetsMakeAThing sure thing. Are you near Seattle?
Sadly no, I'm on the East Coast.
My email is easy to find - shoot me a mailing address and I’ll send you a sample grid
Newbie question: Wouldn't you get a darker burn if you just slowed the speed or upped the power?
Great question! When you slow down or increase the power you increase the amount of material being removed from the piece. So in many cases you'll end up with a deeper engraving that still isn't dark. At some point you will start over burning the material and it will get darker, but so will the surrounding areas which is not desirable.
Quantos watts tem seu laser diodo? Eu tenho um de 10 watts ópticos, vou tentar.
The laser I used in this video is 5.5 watts.
obrigado
Cross hatching will darken as well.
Yes, cross hatching will darken as it's essentially doing two passes, the second pass perpendicular to first. The issue with cross hatching is that it essentially doubles the engraving time because the laser is making two passes over the same area.
Your caution about laser light is correct but in this case totally wrong.
Laser beams by their very nature are coherent beams of light and do not have the ability to jump out at you. They travel in straight lines. Unless you can get your eye (or your finger) into line with the laser beam, which I think is pretty impossible with an 8mm gap, then your eyes will not be damaged by the laser beam itself. However, the reason you would want to wear eye protection is for two completey different resons that people don't speak about. First, when the laser beam strikes your material the exothermic reactions that results when the beam heats the material generates a bright light that is has dangerous high levels of UVB and UVC radiation. UVC in particular can damage human tissue of any sort (especially eyes). Ordinary polycarbonate clear safety glasses (not glass) will absorb UVC and protect your eyes.
BUT there is a second risk to your sight.....light intensity. Would you look at the sun for more than half a second or watch arc welding? So in that case you need a reasonably strong tint to the polycarbonate to attenuate the intensity. Understand and respect a laser beam, do not fear it.
Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge! When I was talking about running without the guard and wearing glasses it was due to long term exposure to the laser intensity over time. I didn't take the time to explain in the video it was due to the light intensity as the video was focused on the dark engraving process and I felt that a simple "don't try this at home" was sufficient.
@@LetsMakeAThing
Thanks for understanding that no criticism was intended or implied.. Sharing facts about laser safety is essential because too many of my corespondents have already spent anything for $20 to almost $100 on "laser" safety goggles before they ask questions With virtually all CO2 lasers, close the lid and you dont need any safety glasses . Sadly the same is not true for the unguarded diode lasers but good sunglasses will provide adequate protection. I know it can be hypmnotic to watch your laser but dont for more than a few seconds at a time.
@@SarbarMultimedia Don't worry, I never watch my laser unguarded. All the shots in my videos are done wearing protective glasses and letting the camera film the action. You do bring up a good point though and I will probably mention this in a future video about not staring at the laser. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge, I really appreciate it!
How were you able to type this in braille?
@@MileyonDisney
After 10 years using various lasers, it took time to get used to my braille keyboard. Seriously though, In the past year I have taken to studying various powers of diode laser and am now playing with a 40 watt head, Of all the lasers I have used, the diode is the most dangerous to your eyes. Its not the laser beam itself but the hideous light intensity of the ionized material around the laser contact spot. ALL the laser energy is going into damaging the material so there is zero risk of your eyes being damaged by the laser beam itself. Remember simple science says that light travels in straingt lines so it's not going to somehow turn 90 degrees and "bite" you. The real danger is the intense random non-laser light. You would not look at the sun or a welding arc without eye protection, so good dark sunglasses are perfectly adequate. There is nothing else dangerous about the light, just its intensity. however, I would always limit viewing it to a few seconds at a time.
First, I'd like to say that I'm learning laser engraving/cutting right now, that's why I'm curious, don't get me wrong... (also I'm not english)
Maybe I'm wrong, but... aren't you just making the dot bigger. If you don't change settings, then the laser scanning lines are overlapping... That's why it's darker. You could just increase LPI and the result should be similar...
Some users are getting the same result lowering the laser instead and that could prove my point since the laser beam is like >< where the optiomal focus is the center (small dot) and it becomes larger if not in focus (either raising the laser or lowering it)
Since you talk about this (more or less) in 6:30 it looks like you already know it... Then, what's the advantage of defocusing the laser instead of changing LPI and power?
It's a good question. In terms of speed changing LPI makes it run slower. The more lines per inch the longer it takes. This method gets a darker burn without increasing the engraving time.
I would thick that defocusing the laser would make for a not so detailed engraving.
I've been doing engravings using this method for months now and haven't noticed any loss of detail. In my next video I do several detailed engravings with a defocused laser and they all came out great. Of course I'm biased, so check out the new video next week and let me know if you think there is loss of detail.
@@LetsMakeAThing will do
The image is darker but the depth of engraving is shallower
Thanks for the comment! For me, if I'm making an engraving for appearance sake, I'm more concerned about how dark it is versus how deep it is and I didn't even think about this. I might make a future video testing how much de-focusing the laser affects depth of engrave.
As defocusing lasers results in bigger dots, you will destroy your resolution. As with CO2 Lasers a lot more as the dot is naturally bigger at that wavelength. Photo engraving on a CO2 Laser is theoretically best at 254 LPI, as the beam is 0.1mm (if perfect, but thats rare even with very expensive machines). With my old Red&Black KH7050 i ran about 200 LPI with the latest method of Russ Sadler (Concise RDWorks Learning Lab Series, Session 25-27 and later). If i defocus my laser by only 0.5mm i will lose a lot of my resolution. Of course, the image will be darker, but it will lose a lot of detail too if i dont correct the LPI to lower than 200. If you only do bigger text or bold graphics, thats a small problem, but if you want photos, you need the sharpest and smallest laser dot you can get.
Excellent point! Thanks for sharing!
I thought a laser was parallel so no widening?
Lasers spread just like all light sources, however, lasers don't spread as dramatically as a regular light source such as a spot light.
This video was a lot of fun to make. I was really surprised that this method works for diode lasers. Well, mostly works. If you have any ideas for more testing with this method leave me a comment!
This method should work fine with vector images like an SVG file. I'm waiting for my Xtool D1 Pro 10W to arrive so learning as much as I can beforehand. I am familiar with Fiber Lasers though.
Why don't you try to slow down?
The point of the video was a method that gave a darker engraving without slowing down or changing power. I probably would get a better effect on the image if I had slowed down but I didn't feel that way in the spirit of this video. I will definitely try again in the future using a slower speed.
I do laser engraving as a profession. I have a CO2 laser and a fiber laser. With wood, I go up to 12mm out of focus. However, then the speed has to be reduced significantly. Since the power is brought to a larger spot. Of course, you could also increase the power. But reducing the speed is often better.
Since you want to transfer the out of focus trick to the diode laser, it would be logical to reduce the speed here as well.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
He has a beard and overalls. Probably reputable... Let's watch!
It's Adam Savage's workshop apron not overalls so probably not as reputable as you think. 🤣