Time Stamp Guide: 0:00 - Intro 1. 7:12 Persecuted women = women leaders 2. 17:50 Jesus trained women to be rabbis 3. 28:23 If NT women are priests, they can be elders, too 4. 59:35 Women prophets = women elders 5. 1:33:38 Spiritual gifts in women means they can teach and lead ~ 2:08:53 Today’s conclusion and summary
@@guygifford These are the specific time stamps he asked me to find for him, but there may be additional spots in the video you’d like to personally mark. Feel free to note those in the comments!
Hey Mike, Sorry for the issue with Logos. I'm the German tech-support person for Logos and here is the solution: The community highlights have been activated by default for some users. You can disable them under the visual filters. A personal note: THANKS for all your great content which is in-depth, funny, helpful and challenging all the time.
Also, the basic Logos software is free and includes a lot of content and functionality. There is a lot of additional content available for purchase, and that’s where it can get pricey. But I use it every day and find it is incredibly useful. And I am not a pastor, either.
One of the biggest issues with so many of your leanings towards egalitarianism in some of your arguments is due to emphasizing descriptive texts rather than prescriptive texts. The two texts that you mentioned patriarchal individuals use to refute your position are prescriptive. They carry a lot more weight.
I listened to 6 hours of this study yesterday. I most certainly don’t care how long the videos are, I’ve never been pulled this deep into this topic and I’ve found it absolutely enthralling
I am a Mary. Having sound theology helps me lay age appropriate foundations for my kids. And I love the discovery of God in it. I’m emphatically not in favor of the priesthood for women. Once had a friend lament my not wanting to be ordained as if my interest and knowledge was wasted. It is not. It’s a treasure.
But when He is really precious to our souls, nothing will be too good, nothing too costly for Him. Everything we have, our dearest, our most priceless treasure, we shall pour out upon Him, and we shall not count it a shame to have done so. - Watchman Nee in the Normal Christian Life Praise God for you to be "wasted" on Him.
Like I even relate to someone close telling me that my knowledge and abilities are wasted if I do not pursue what she wants me to, what I don’t agree with me pursuing. I related it to ALL
Don’t worry about the length of your videos! We can break them up with the pause button if we need to. We come to you for thorough, Biblical truth. Length of the video is irrelevant. ❤️🙏🏼 Praying for continued wisdom and discernment as you tackle the tough subjects for which Christians need more clarity. ❤️✝️❤️
My beautiful wife has made a church and made herself a pastor it’s Pentecostal denomination. She now justifies sleeping until noon everyday praying and fasting. I’ve gone through scripture with her about being a biblical wife but now she is above that and now she has hardened her heart to me. I have tried to change my thoughts and get her back but all she says is go to her church. I’ve told her I would leave the church I go to and we need to find a God fearing church together but now her pride is to great and she will not turn from it. She talks more to the men that goes to her church than me and this is been going on for over a year and now. The good thing that came out of this is I have started studying scripture truly myself. Please pray for my marriage.
Show her the scriptures. And she should submit to her husband. She is in conflict with God's word. So feminism, Pride is the spirit. God resists the proud but gives grace to the Humble. Your wife has a spirit of pride, and a spirit of Rebellion that is the same as Witchcraft. By ignoring scripture she in in conflict with God and in rebellion. This has gone as far as being in rebellion to her husband. Now she has become wayward she has gone astray to her own way. She must realize that christ Jesus is the only way! She needs correction with the scripture and repentance, and prayer to cast out the Religious spirit. Religion kills but Christianity saves. She should be rebuked with scripture
When I became a Christian I had such a hunger for the knowledge of God and to understand the Bible and I still have. It must have come from God because I never cared about it before. Some women thought it was odd that I wanted to learn stuff that 'the men usually study' but no one told me I shouldn't.
I, too, as a woman, am very interested in doctrine and theology. We are more likely to be at home with the kids and should be able to teach them about God and scripture-- kinda hard to do when we don't know scripture. Or be able to evangelize in our everyday lives, or even being prepared to give an answer for the hope in us-- should know scripture to help back up what we share.
@@cfrost87 I totally agree. That sounds very sound and wise. Thank you for that input. Lots of problems find a solution in a healthy balance between the huge task of being a mother and the need to keep being a "learning child" of God. Our Heavenly Father knows how to help and bless mothers. Blessings.
@@tompfister9951 he does no such thing... If this passage offends you then perhaps you need to pray about it and look into your own heart to figure out why 9 Likewise the women are to dress in suitable apparel, with modesty and self-control. Their adornment must not be with braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive clothing, 10 but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. 11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first and then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But she will be delivered through childbearing, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control.
@@janeEyreAddict not sure what you’re saying? He mentions the garden saying woman messed up. After he states a “role” for them. I’ve met ppl that call Paul sexist and twisted. How is that so if god is inspiring him?
@@tompfister9951 If you get affected by people enforcing their modern world views such as "sexism" on God who created both men and women and has complete authority to give them specific roles, you need to recheck your trust in the scriptures.
I absolutely love the spirit and heart in which you disagree with others. In every video you show a loving spirit even to those who do not do the same in return. This is something I struggle with and watching your video's helps remind me how I should act.
Some egalitarians would abuse this quote and say "this topic is 'doubtful', therefore we demand liberty". As Mike is showing in this series, the Bible is a lot clearer on this topic than many egalitarians (and strong complimentarians) want to acknowledge.
I haven't "Amen-ed" so much in I don't even remember how long listening to your thoughts on coming up with roles around people and their unique gifts, in fact I rarely ever feel compelled to shout out those things, let alone from the rooftops! I feel like this has been an incredibly limiting factor in my search for ministry work as well as therefore in and for the churches and ministries I've been involved with so far. So Preach Preach Preach Preach! I didn't even know how much I needed to hear someone say that. Thank you! Seriously though, Preach it, and Amen!
Mike. I just looked at your notes for the first time. WOW! You are so thorough, so well-organized, so well-researched. You are doing such wonderful justice to the biblical issues you study. Thank you on behalf of the saints, and God BLESS you and your amazing ministry!
Mike thank you for doing this study- the most important thing is that we stick to the scripture not read into it our favorite pet beliefs. Your labor in the LORD has been a huge blessing to us all
This is an epic feat - this whole series. I don't pretend to listen to it all because, at this time, it's not all foremost in my mind. But I am enjoying what I do listen to very much and can tell it will be super valuable for many. But also....cannot WAIT til the Hebrews study! (No pressure! ;) )
Thank you, Mike and all his team of helpers (especially including his wife!) for the work and dedication that goes into this ministry. I pray it will bring good fruit and they'll be rewarded. I've been listening to this series in order when I could. Other times, like now, I listen to whatever episode of it I find out of order. Praying for Mike's recovery and for God to carry him and his sister through their grief.
I was watching and clapping and shouting Amen when you started talking and speaking on the Priesthood!!! Thanks for all your time, research and study on this topic!! You have me "Thinking Biblically"!!!!
The The Bible says God prefers for people to be in LGBT relationships. Anyone that teaches the LIE of monetary tithing, sells anything using the gospel, or teaches that same-sex marriage is a sin CHOOSES to die with the wicked. Luke 10:7 states the only wages for ministering are eating and drinking whatever you are given. Also, know that rich people will all die. You can't be a Christian, sit on all kinds of money, watch your fellow brothers and sisters starve, suffer, or be homeless, choose to do nothing about it, and think that it's ok. Those are all wolves. Mathew 19:12 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. Eunuchs made that way by others were abused in some way and something inside of them blocks off a certain type of body but it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused. Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex-characteristics but opposite in regards to gender. Notice, it states God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships. Leviticus, Corinthians, and Timothy were translated wrong by Billy Graham. Those verses are actually referring to pedophilia. Romans 1:27 All of the men were male in regards to gender, all of the women were female in gender. It is not referring to Eunuchs (where one partner is transgender). Also, it had nothing to do with marriage of any kind. They were trying to procreate during orgies so God did it on purpose. Anyone that continues to teach same sex marriage is a sin when the Bible says God prefers for people to be in LGBT relationships will also die by their own choice. In order to be a church building, the place must house people inside of it. Otherwise it is just another private money-making business part of Babylon that furthers satan's agenda. Stay out of the fake churches. I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6 and Acts 3:22-23 says it will come to pass that anyone that fails to listen to me will be UTTERLY destroyed from among the people. Again, everyone has a choice. And anyone that deletes my messages CHOOSES to reject Jesus Christ Himself and that means they also CHOOSE to die with the wicked. I am Elijah so that means any discrepancies in the holy books are ultimately decided by me. I am also to usher in the Messiah! Be ready: Jesus is coming back! WORLD PEACE IS COMING!! By the way, anything based on gender norms no longer applies. In fact, the last will be first and the first will be last. It's women that will be ruling the kingdom of heaven........ And rapture is not what most people think. Its when God's true people shine with the glory of God and are miraculously healed. Read Malchi 4:2-4 and the verses surrounding it........... Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8-11 is talking to the thieving church leaders. Every single major church and fake preacher on television knew since August of 2020 if they brought the money back they were never supposed to take for ministering then God would end Covvid but they love money so much they intentionally chose to kill everyone instead of repenting.. Sodom was bout rape and greed, nothing to do with marriage of any kind . . . . . . . . ......
Elijah, honey, I have no earthly idea what your smoking, ingesting or drinking but I sure hope you someday see the total adsurdity and blasphemy of your understanding of the Holy Scriptures. May God have mercy on you.
@@Elijah-ri6xo Read Romans 1:26-28, Jude 1:7, and Read through the entire chapter of Romans 1 and then Jude. Then go back to Genesis 18:23 - 19:15 and if you are too busy to read it here is a link:
@@Elijah-ri6xo Hello Elijah, actually if I deleted your message right now I would NOT be rejecting the true Jesus. He is my Lord and Saviour regardless of your message here. Just warning you, you are spreading lies about God which is pretty serious. Scripture is abundantly clear; God made us male and female, and He said to be fruitful and multiply, which you can only do as a male and female. And He makes it clear in many passages that He considers the act of homosexuality as an “abomination”. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” Genesis 2:24 ESV “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination;” Leviticus 20:13 ESV “For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.” Romans 1:26-28 ESV Pastor Mike has a whole series on homosexuality if you’re interested: biblethinker.org/homosexuality/
Great video Pastor Mike! I really enjoyed the discussion around the gifts and offices. But my favorite part was the beautiful sermonette in the middle about the priesthood of believers. Just beautiful, thank you for taking the time to dive deep really thrush out these issues.
I so appreciate all of your studies, breaking topics and issues down, searching them out thoroughly. I'm really encouraged by and thankful for your boldness in stepping into the ministry God has gifted you with and called you to, even it being something brand new and unusual for the regular CC "set up." 😁Makes me feel less of a weirdo,😊 and it's really encouraging for me in this present season of once again being led to waters not many wanna tread, but I truly very happily do for Christ. (Ps: Please, continue praying for the Church in Ukraine, and for an awakening.) 🙏🙏
What this week's teaching showed me is that we really need to look at 1 Tim 2:12 and consider that it says in context "woman should not teach as to USURP authority." We cannot ignore the word usurp as many do. It does not say that woman cannot have authority, or that they cannot teach. They simply shouldn't teach false doctrines (just as Paul repeats over and over to Timothy) and they shouldn't try to take authority as by force. Great work Mike! I still fall into the egalitarian side where that a woman could teach and preach and even lead a church as a pastor, as long as it is in proper order of GIVEN authority (not taken) and teaching sound doctrine. She too has to follow the same qualifications as any other elder, other than it being she is the wife of one husband, which of course we could simply say - she is in a faithful monogamous marriage and not sleeping around. The same way we summarize that qualification for any other elder when we don't have on our complementarian goggles.
Yes, agreed, on the 1 Timothy 2 passage. Paul uses a word for authority that is only in that passage. It's not the regular kind of authority, as in an org chart, but it's a word meaning abusive authority, as you mentioned in your comment. God wouldn't want anyone to have that kind of authority over anyone else. For this reason, I believe that 1 Tim 2:12 leaves an opening for women to have the right kind of authority over a mixed group, but not the wrong kind. Remember, the proclivity in the garden was for the woman to take charge and for the man to acquiesce to their destruction. God puts in these guardrails to keep that from happening again. But, in no way, does it mean that a woman can't have a God-given authority. There were already precedents of this in the Bible in the Old Testament.
@@alexhamilton624 Thank you Brent! We can't pretend that culture matters everywhere else in the bible but ignore it here. Artemis Cult is the same reason Paul explained in context the proper order of creation. The Artemis Cult which was based in Ephesus taught that woman was created first and had authority over man... and they also taught that Artemis judged woman with death during childbirth, hence the reason Paul encouraged them that they are saved by childbirth (the birth of Christ).
@@BEABEREAN10can you tell me more about how we know he's taking about an Artemis Cult, I literally read so many translations of this verse, because I'm like even if this verse is true, what is this random interruption to talk about being saved by childbirth? Some translations have shown it is "Women will also be saved through the Childbirth".
This series has been very helpful and affirming, especially in the sense of getting to the heart of Scripture and the heart of God, and I thoroughly appreciate the work that you are doing here. Additionally to the main topic (focusing on roles of women) the basic structure and organization of the church is interesting to me, and I’d love to see a thorough examination of that, explanation of titles, etc. the term “elder” is used very differently in most churches than to describe the role of what is typically called a head pastor-elders being more like a set of support individuals who advise and encourage the leader. I’m interested in the terminology and Scriptural support for (or openness because of no particular direction given) the way that churches organize. The idea of creating positions specific to unique gifting is along those lines, as well.
Hi Mike, I feel truly blessed with the your videos you share with us. I believe this is a hard topic you are taking on, and I think you are trying you best to give a biblical perspective about it. Even if you don't quit agree with it yourself. I see the videos is helping a lot of people out there, and a see a lot of people getting upset about it. I pray that you have strength to endure the hardships of the path you have taken. My God guide you and give you strength. This is your suffering and cross to bear, and hopefully in the end more people will be closer to God and followers of Jesus. Thanks for teaching us to think biblically.
I find the whole authority arguments very very interesting. I don't try to read too much into the heart of them. Anyways I thought of a useful analogy. The presence of 3 branches of government keeping one another in check via their roles and authority would not lead someone to believe that the roles are interchangeable. A supreme court justice would not be offered the same role of authority or influence as a senate member.
Here it is mid August and a unexpected fur grandbaby sitting needed and i'm so enjoying this series. Be encouraged I am enjoying this. Learning so much as I am reading the Bible chronilogical as well. Your ministry continues to bless me.
As I watch through this excellent video series, it appears to me that the most fundamental problem with this whole issue gets blurred by the definition of words. (Is this what drove people apart at Babel?) Mike Winger has discussed this a number of times in the series, particularly the definition of pastor not being the same as the biblical elder, overseer or bishop and the definition of priest not being pastor. I can understand the frustration of people who think it is wrong to deny women the position of say, Administrative Pastor, or Worship Pastor, or Outreach Pastor, especially if these positions would not have been considered overseers in the first century church. I think many times in the past we have unfairly denied women opportunities and missed out on their contribution because we have incorrectly applied male exclusivity to positions in the church that don't deserve them. I can't see that anything Mike has presented would exclude women from many of these "pastoral" positions. Simply applying the 'new fangled' "Pastor" title to what in the first century would have been a deacon role, should not exclude women. Are we going to say men can only take out the church garbage because the position has been labelled "Waste Pastor"? I don't think so. Alternatively, I don't think the correct response to these past injustices is to demand that everyone can do everything. To solve the pastoral exclusion problem by saying that women can now perform all pastoral roles is not the right approach either. The solution is to do exactly what Mike has done. Take a step back. Take a deep breath and then calmly and patiently try to discern the will of God in this matter. If we can't agree that we all need to submit to God's will, then you have more serious problems with your walk than this issue. (See Part 1 of this series) Thank you Mike, for taking so much time to shine so much light on such a contentious and relevant topic.
@@shanebailey6341 Ordained means recognized by a religious group as a leader. Pastor relates to being a Shepard, but generally means a leader. Administrative means taking care of the business related aspects of running the church not the religious aspects. Eg accounting, ordering supplies, building maintenance, set up for services. Pastor is not really a biblical term, which is what causes many of the problems. So if we only want to consider what the Bible says, then we need to stop using the term pastor.
@@shanebailey6341 That is not my experience. My church has had a Lead Pastor, a Teaching Pastor, an Administrative Pastor, a Worship Pastor, a Youth Pastor, a Children’s Pastor and a number of others. A number of these positions would be more like deacon roles, but because of the generic use of the term pastor, these have been historically limited to men. I don’t think a biblical case can be made for exclusion of women from the role of pastor, since the term is not used in the Bible. You need to look at the function the ‘pastor’ has and then relate it to the biblical roles the Bible actually discusses and evaluate each ‘pastoral’ role according to their biblical equivalents. Again, the confusion arises with titles and word definitions that have no biblical equivalence, as Mike Winger discusses.
@@shanebailey6341 I understand what you are saying, but the Bible only uses pastor in that one location, and it is not very gender specific there. The gender specific passages do not use pastor, which is were the confusion begins. I believe we both believe the same thing. My original point was that because we have historically excluded women from anything labelled pastor, and we have used pastor very broadly, we have denied women roles they should be able to hold. My question to you then is, “Where do you get a biblical definition of the word pastor?” I don’t see any definition in Ephesians, only a listing. If you feel the definition has been diluted, where is the original definition found in scripture?
@@shanebailey6341 I agree, we agree. As I stated at the beginning, this comes down to word definitions, and if they are not specifically defined in the Bible, I find it difficult to defend. You argue that the traditional meaning of Pastor should be well understood, but I contend that it no longer is, and since it is not defined in the Bible, why should this be a hill to die on. I can simply look at the biblical words like elder or bishop and ask if these align with a person’s actual role in the church. In my childhood church, only men could have any leadership role, pastor, elder or deacon. The traditional definitions were clearly understood: men lead. That was the tradition. I would argue that biblically defined roles, like bishop or elder are reserved for men; as indicated by scripture. Undefined titles like pastor, I’m not going to argue over. I’m not bound by tradition definitions only biblical ones. As far as words like omnipotent, omnipresent and trinity, these are words that have been used to summarize concepts that can be clearly defended from scripture. Their definitions come from their actual meaning but if someone wants to argue that God is not omnipotent because the word is not in scripture, I will concede that, and simply argue that he is all powerful, which can be defended from scripture. I’m not sure what we are discussing, since we agree we agree. I think you are bound to the traditional meaning of the word pastor, and I am not. The result from both our understandings appears to have the same outcome, so where do we go from here?
Mike, I think this might be my favorite video in this series so far. It felt a little more balanced and you made many great points. The vast effort you’ve put into this, as well as your striving to remain neutral, are very appreciated. As usual, I agree with you that most of these arguments are unconvincing for egalitarianism, especially if standing alone (I don’t base my own egalitarian view on any of these arguments). Still, I think there are some points to be made: 1) You mentioned you don’t consider this debate a “gray area.” You consider it sufficiently clear that one side is the winner. This is surprising to me, as I think the diversity of views among wise people on both sides, and the intense debate all around, is strong evidence that it is NOT as clear as you say. Typically, when I hear people say this issue is straightforward, I assume they’re simply not familiar with the issue and haven’t done their homework. I know that’s not true in your case, so I wonder how you could say/think this. Beyond that, I am genuinely confused as to what evidence you think is so strong on the complementarian side. So, if you see this, could you recommend the best book or resource that argues for complementarianism? I sincerely am trying to find something convincing, but everything I find uses poor, unconvincing arguments. Perhaps I’m just terribly unlucky? I’d also like to see such a source because, as I’ve mentioned before, you spend little time arguing FOR complementarianism and most of your time arguing AGAINST the antithesis. But debunking poor arguments for alternatives doesn’t directly prove one’s initial claim. 2) I was very happy to hear you reject the husband as “priest” of the home, even though this is likely to offend many complementarians. It reminds me of the book “Created to be His Helpmeet” by Michael and Debi Pearl. Debi tells a story in which she asked her husband to pray for something because, in her words, that would be bringing in the “big guns.” It’s so sad that she felt her husband’s prayers were more effective just because he’s a man! Still, you did say something about the husband being the “head of the home”, a phrase (and, I would argue, concept) that does not appear in the Bible. I’m curious to hear you develop this further in future videos, especially since rejecting the “priest” view of husbands somewhat neuters the sense in which the husband is “head.” If not the “priest”, who is in some way responsible for his family before God as a sort of intermediary, in what sense is he “head?” But this can wait for the video on that topic. 3) I appreciated your pushback against John MacArthur. Still, I think you and he are making the same mistake: he is using “women must remain silent” to interpret/qualify statements about women prophesying, while you are using statements about women prophesying to interpret/qualify “women must remain silent.” I’m open to correction if I’m misinterpreting anything here. 4) You said you’re not aware of any complementarians who believe the influence of women should be limited. John Piper, who is about as mainstream complementarian as you can get, says exactly this in chapter 1 of Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. For example, on page 51, while he does say women shouldn’t be prohibited from influencing men, the only way he lists in which it is appropriate for a woman to influence a man is through prayer (not directly, in other words). He then says “To the degree that a woman’s influence over man is personal and directive it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order.” In his view, if a relationship between a man and woman is very personal (like husband and wife), her influence over him must NOT be “directive.” And he actually claims this is “not necessarily owing to male egotism, but to a natural and good penchant given by God.” It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this. 5) The main thing that troubled me was the following comment: “It doesn’t matter if God doesn’t give you a reason, He’s God, you just obey. If He says only people with bald spots can be elders, we should obey it. If He said only people above 5’10’’ or below 5’5’’ inches can be elders, we should obey it.” This sounds pious, but there are serious problems with this mindset/argument. The first is that it’s irrelevant, as you yourself pointed out just prior to this regarding a different argument. The very debate is over whether God did, in fact, command that women cannot be elders. Serious scholars on both sides accept the authority of the Bible and want to follow what it teaches. Saying “if God commanded (insert here), would you obey it?” doesn’t move the debate forward. The second problem, though, is it suggests God makes arbitrary commands. I don’t think you intended it that way, but I think it does nevertheless. I would hope that, if you conclude women cannot be elders, you believe there is some good reason for it (even if you don’t know or understand what it is). Yet, we should not merely blindly obey, but do our best to understand what God commands and why. This is how we grow in knowledge and character. If we say too quickly “God said it, so I’ll just do it and not worry about it”, we miss this opportunity. Ultimately, if you believe God commands something as strange as “elders must have bald spots,” which is more likely: that God actually commanded such a thing (and the reason is beyond our comprehension), or that you’ve misunderstood something? We can’t be too quick to accept something that appears nonsensical or arbitrary. This approach also increases the danger that we will come to wrong conclusions. Instead of trusting God implicitly, as it may seem, what we’re really doing is trusting our own interpretation. The danger of this is self-evident. “If God commanded you to kill someone, would you do it?” “If God commanded you to fly an airplane into a tower, would you do it?” “If God said black people should be owned by white people”, would you accept this? These are unanswerable questions because they are preloaded with ungodly commands. We know they are wrong because we have a conscience and the ability (and obligation) to think through such matters. If I thought the Bible was saying something arbitrary (like only bald or white people can be elders), I would not blindly accept it. I would double and triple check to make sure I understood correctly, and I would demand a high burden of proof before I would accept it. This is what we must do in the debate over women, and this is the reason I reject complementarianism: it utterly fails to meet the biblical burden of proof we ought to demand of it (which would be more obvious if you spent more time presenting complementarian arguments themselves instead of just trying to debunk the antithesis). This is not to say our own understanding should be the final word. Certainly not! But neither does God intend for us to throw out all thought, all logic, all nudges of conscience. I know you would agree that the goal is to THINK biblically. Part 2 coming, this was too long to fit!
I know you wrote this intended for Mike, but, truly, it was a delight reading your words! As a woman deeply drawn to ministry but very unsure of what to do, I'm still highly torn. In no way do I yet know where I truly stand, but you formulated your ideas incredibly well. It does not go unappreciated!
Hi Mike, I have been enjoying this series and am prepared to rethink my teaching a Sunday school class if need be. These issues are really important and confuse a lot of people. We recently lost a whole family because the wife got mad that our church allows women teachers (not in an elder role) and doesn't require headcoverings. She attributed her depression and mental issues to demonic oppression that resulted from visiting a holistic Doctor that someone in our church recommended and blames our church for that. Like if we were spiritual enough we could have helped her avoid any attacks from satan. At least those were some of her excuses for going ballistic on some of the members and pastor. It's really sad.
Thank you so much for this thorough and thoughtful series on a very divisive topic for the church. I can only imagine the time you invested in to prepare for these videos. I especially appreciate the clarity, kindness and gentleness in presenting your arguments. It is so rare these days to hear sound arguments based on thorough understanding of scripture and research, instead of just throwing entrenched opinions at each other.
Thank you so much for this extensive work on the topic! I’ve waited a long time to hear an honest and thorough discussion on this! I’m really enjoying it! Appreciate your ministry so much! Keep up the good work!
Mike This is a topic I have been studing and contending with, within myself, for a very long time. You have done such an all-encompassing study looking at this topic from every angle. For the first time I feel I can make a clear decision based on the whole scripture concerning this issue. Debated from every corner instead of being tainted by the teachers preference. And it is so freeing! I recognize the time, effort and labour of love you have ploughed into this. I have benefited greatly from your labour, and for this I sincerely thank you.
I don't know if this has been said or not yet, but the way I understand the scriptures regarding the wife submitting to the husband and the husband loving the wife as Christ loves the Church requires a broader commitment from the husband: The wife submits to the husbands authoritative position in the household as a helper but the husband is required to view his relationship to the wife as 'willing to give himself for it', as Jesus gave up His life for us all. In my opinion, this is a 'bigger ask' of the husband: if a Godly husband is performing His role correctly, it doesn't mean that he lords over his wife: it means that he considers her completely from a position of love, and that, love unto death. I believe that the wife should also approach this from a place of love, and that is the secret of the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! They each seek the glory of the other, and desire to glorify one another. It is the consistent and eternal flow of love between them that they are all God yet the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, etc.
One thing Gods taught me through the bible is that the more I learn on a topic and the more confusing it gets, the more understanding I still need on that topic. Therefore I'm just not seeing all the truth yet, why I cant find any definitive answer. Not knowing the answer means we have more to grow still in our understanding, because there is a bigger picture here God wants to teach us! The truth is in there it will come to light, exactly on Gods timing like a huge puzzle being all put together., piece by piece till we understand his message! Then we get the revelation and its a very exciting time!
Exactly. I read the Bible daily for many years, but learning the puzzle pieces. I was only able to match about one piece a year. But after many years, the pieces are now being matched, seemingly non-stop.
First off, thank you so much for your hard work on this topic. It has been tremendously enjoyable and edifying! Here's my push back: I would call a husband a "type" of priest in the home, not in the sense of mediation between his wife and God, but in that he is responsible for the spiritual direction of the household. Perhaps a better way to say it is to pursue spiritual prosperity for his family - not to "acquire" it, but to lead unto it. I think you could go further, stating that a husband ought to be a type of prophet (directing the family to obey the word of God) and king (protecting and leading with righteousness and justice). The distinctions I want to make are that it's a "type" in the sense that it ultimately points TO Christ, not takes from Him, and that the family is a separate authority structure from the church.
I thought similarly however I heard man be the prophet of the home. But prophets should be perfect in the gift, but man is not perfect in the home. I don’t feel that’s a great comparison if you will.” Some husbands still get stoned verbally for not being perfect in the home lol. However husbands are to be Christlike of the home as head.
@@tompfister9951 I would not say a Prophet, but prophetic as in forth-telling the word of God. In that sense we are all supposed to be prophetic to the world around us. Perhaps Mike is right and the terms are more trouble than they're worth to make the correct distinctions 🤷♂🙂
To prophecy is to pre-tell. I think the word prophecy or prophetic has gotten outta wack. For example to encourage or exhort or affirm is a better term. The big word in marriage is cherish. Which is I think in common wedding vows. Can’t remember off the top of my head. But I would suggest dive deeper and ask ourselves where does the word prophetic originate. Is it even a biblical term. It sounds like kind of prophet, which doesn’t seem to exist. In the Bible you were a prophet or not.(duet. 18) maybe this might be a good discussion for him to make a video on. There’s a whole debate on whether you can prophecy and be wrong, under grace... I wouldn’t trust a false gps anymore than a false prophet..
These have been great videos! I have been learning all i can, lately relearning a lot and unlearning a lot of worldly things… as i do it becomes so apparent that my Grandma was the core to my Biblical teachings growing up (and still) I called her just last night to tell her that, and to give thanks to her and with her to God. Thank you for going into the nitty gritty on your channel, it’s been a huge blessing in filling in gaps on info i thought i knew and bringing to light things i have never heard before 🙏🏽
This was a very good teaching, thanks so much Pastor Mike for all your hard work and doing this to bless us, and making it available for free! I love the Royal priesthood stuff in scripture 😃💜, that it’s for everyone in Christ because Jesus is every believers mediator between them and God. I also enjoyed the teaching you did on that in the 1 Peter series! Also wanted to mention in response because I thought this was great and it goes with what you said: my Pastor taught his church members (anyone who was a member and wanted to learn it) a course in systematic theology (and my sister was one of the people) because he wanted to make sure his church had right theology, and also the elders to have right theology, and they did a good job making sure that the elders were men that are able to teach and have the qualities an elder should have. I always found both your teaching and his to always line up 😀👍🏻
Thanks for another helpful video, Mike! What I appreciate most about this series (and all your videos) is that you view the Bible as the ultimate authority. Therefore, you go where the Bible goes, rather than being swayed by popular opinion or even your own preference. Thank you for this biblical, detailed, thoughtful, and respectful series! I’m enjoying it and learning a lot!
Mike, I am learning SO MUCH in addition to the topic of women in ministry - through your illustrations, cross references, historical context, etc. Thank you for doing this series!
Thank you Mike Winger for your thoughtful and meticulous ministry. It must be an immense amount of work to cover all of these topics. Some of the questions I hope that you might have the time to explore in the future are: - When a woman serve as a companion or "complement" to their husband who is an elder, is it unreasonable for her to, in some capacity, participate in the role as well? - If a man is an elder at his church, would it be inappropriate to include him and his wife together as a couple of elders? (e.g., "These are two of our elders, John and Jane Smith") - Assuming the church leadership considers the wife spiritually mature and qualified, if there happens to be an elder meeting at the church, should the man leave her at home, or does her complementary role include accompanying him as he serves and makes decisions with the other elders?
If a husband is an elder, and the wife is not, no you wouldn't refer to her as an elder. It's not a team. She wouldn't be performing the duties or holding responsibilities of an elder, so no she would not go to elder meetings and do elder things.
So far, my leanings are that women may be in a modern day “pastoral” role in areas such as women’s or Children’s ministry under the head male pastor. Today, the term “pastor” is so broad it’s not like how it used to be. People can be a pastor at a church and only provide prayer and counseling…so idk. I think people take on extreme ideas on both sides.
one might question if there even is an objective standard for being a "pastor" since women take a pastoral role all the time, they just don't have that label.
@@uhitsethan today, I don’t think there is much of one. It’s basically the same as being a deacon/deaconess at most churches I’ve seen. Mind you, I go to a reformed Baptist church that has absolutely no women in leadership and leans on the extreme end of complimentarianism. They think women in ministry is good and think women may instruct other women and the children but must be upright and godly etc. but may not be a deaconess or pray us out of service etc.
@@tompfister9951 I think there’s some of both. Like a pastor today isn’t always necessarily an “elder” in the Biblical sense. Some are and some aren’t. It’s touchy! Especially as a woman who has a gifting for teaching and public speaking and who has been told several times to use these gifts for God…the question is how? If I cannot lead a women’s group or serve in a pastoral role in women’s ministry even under a male head pastor, where and how can I use these gifts? I want to honor God with my actions! So I’m trying to be super careful in my approach but don’t want to ignore my gifts simply because of gender. Maybe online stuff like Mike does? Idk! Pray for me y’all.
Great video! I have one more video to watch in your series of women in ministry. This has been very very helpful to me. I am attending a complimentary church. They do have women Deacons and I was very happy to see that they are sticking to scripture. The women are teaching women, prophesying in the church, reading scripture. And of course helping with the children ministry. God bless you Mike and thank you so much for really taking the Bible serious and going off of what God says and not your opinion.
Hope this comment gets to you, Mike, in the midst of all you have to read through. It doesn't deal with this particular video (though it's been awesome beyond words to the praise of God and thanks to you). It concerns your previous one, "Mary the Apostle" and an insight of mine that may help you. When you referred to Burer and Wallace's research concerning the key prepositional phrase in Rom. 16:7b. It really made so much sense to me and I know just beginner scraps in Greek, if even that. After all, how else would one be able to distinguish between the two possible renditions of the phrase in question unless the cases of the relevant words in the phrase were different. If the phrase should be translated outstanding among- that is, residing in the company of the apostles, that indicates a sense of origin. So, the genitive case would seem to fit there. But if the relationship between they and the apostles is more indirect- outstanding with reference to the opinion of the apostles- then I bet the dative would fit communicating such a connection. Now, I don't have a great deal of experience here. The dative seems to cover a wide number of prepositions. But they many times seem to communicate this more indirect relationship between two words or concepts in a greek sentence. Thanks for listening, Mike. I hope this really helps you. See where it takes you. I also sent your team two emails. The first encourages you and gives my full support to take your time in preparing each part of this series. You mentioned that in one of your posts a couple of weeks ago. Just keep doing what you are doing. I also sent an email for when you investigate 1Cor. 11:2-16. It deals particularly with an insight of mine in vv. 11-12. I hope it helps you. Thanks for taking time for me, Mike. Thank you very much, your close friend in Jesus, David Lavelle.
Thank you so much for going through all of this content so comprehensively! It's one of the highlights of my week when a new video from this series comes out, I'm so excited for the next one. Thanks Mike, you are a legend!
Looks like your wonderful wife picked your shirt again? Phenomenal teaching today! God has given you the gift of wisdom and teaching. Thank you for edifying the Body.
Another great video! Mike I wonder if you have considered either turning this into a book or letting someone else edit your videos into a book by you. It would be a helpful resource especially if youtube goes done the tubes or censores everything someday!
I know it's not the same as what you're wanting, but if you look under the description box of every video, there is a written transcript. I use them often with Mike's teachings. I often listen while doing other tasks and then return to the transcript to mark down Scripture references, notes, names of scholars he quoted, etc...
Thank you Mike for the series. I find myself in agreement with you for most points. One question that keeps popping into my mind is what exactly is the role of the elder/senior pastor/bishop. If this is the single role exclusive to men, what exactly are it's distinctive characteristics? As you have demonstrated it's not leading or teaching, since there are other ways to use those abilities without the role. I think this can be a helpful question to answer on the series.
Where does it explicitly state in the Bible that the elder is the pastor, or vice-versa, or even that pastor AND teacher should be combined assignment? It doesn't. Combining these categories of roles is man's invention.
Amen, thank you for being so conscientious about following what the Word says. It isn’t always easy to hear but that is the point where we must decide whether we are going to follow man or GOD.
Mike maybe you said this in a previous video or this one and I just missed it, but I'm confused about prophecy and what it actually means? Thank you so much for such an in depth study of this topic!!
Mainline churches and cessationists (Dallas Theoligical Seminary etc.) don't practice this. On Charismatic churches that I've attended, prophecy is of 3 types. One is the office of a prophet. They actually give words to the body or an individual. They must be tested: do their prophecies come to pass and are the biblically sound. Second, there are words of knowledge. They're like mini prophecies with insight. In personal evangelism, you might feel like Gid is telling you something about a person's life or pasr or health. When they are accurate, the person will often weep and be open to the gospel or prayer. Third, there are prophecies that are not predictive....I would they you would all prophesy, as Paul says. These are biblically faithful words of edification, encouragement, and comfort. These are the working definitions I've been taught anyway.
Thanks so much for sorting out all of this information and presenting it so well (it doesn't seem like 2 hours at all). I really appreciate all of the clarification, representation of viewpoints, and follow-up to questions/pushback. It's a subject that wasn't a big deal to me, but others I know care deeply, so I don't want to base my conclusions on a shallow understanding.
Every single time I listen to a teaching I learn something new about how to study Scripture. Thank you for that, Mike. The more I learn the more I have learned how wrong I have been. Even though I was complementarian wanting to be egalitarian, I've learned how flawed some of my beliefs have been about different verses. I have also learned how much I had leaned on what had been taught vs what I learned from the text. One question that was stirred up in me again about the role of Pastor in the western church. Do you see the role of lead pastor as problematic in that society sees it as a form of priesthood. Do you think the church is set up like it was intended?
I agree with the teaching point. There was a time I was suggested as a candidate to be the children's ministry director. After considering it and praying, the Lord showed me I should stay committed only to teaching. Leading would take away from my teaching ministry. So happy I made this decision.
PLEASE GIVE "THE HEAD COVERING MOVEMENT" A SOLID STUDY FOR WHEN YOU GET TO THE HEAD COVERING PASSAGES!! The founder has a book on the subject of Headcovering for the modern day and I hope dearly that you can reference it!! Also perhaps giving a look at Anabaptist theology since the Amish/Mennonites are pretty much the only denominations that still practice it.
On the part about prophesy, I think it's important that people like Pharaoh had prophetic dreams. Pharaoh was given a prophesy from God (ultimately interpreted by Joseph), but I don't think anyone would cite Pharaoh as someone worthy of a religious leadership position
I don't think you mean to do so, but your argument seems to equate your sisters in Christ with evil, unsaved men. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Balaam, et al. weren't indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and for them the prophecies were singular instances, not as a gift of the Holy Spirit. A gift of the Holy Spirit wouldn't be just a singular instance, and as Paul said, the gift of prophecy was important to the edification of the church.
@@snopure I don't mean to equate anyone with Pharaoh. You're looking for a reason to be upset. My point was to rebut the logic. The logic is, "If able to prophesy, then able to teach theology in a leadership position." As you correctly say, those were singular instances of prophecies. But that only proves my point. God can use _anyone_ to prophesy! Prophesying has no correlation with one's ability to teach theology.
Thanks for bringing up prophetic dreams in non believers; now I need to go to my Bible and look through but, as I was thinking about it, don't all of these dreams need interpretation by believers? As in often believers know what their prophetic visions means, it is revealed to them by God but , although God sends prophetic dreams/visions to unbelievers they do not get the revelation of knowledge to understand them. Going now to look. Again, thank you for a question that will turn me back to my Bible!
I've noticed for a while now that I'm not learning new theology from videos anymore. All the material is something I've heard before or remember from bible reading. I've interpreted this as a sign to move beyond theory and focus on putting it into practice. There's still more to learn, God recently gave me several new theological insights in prayer, but I'm not getting it from videos anymore. What I did wonder about is the apparent contradiction between not learning new theology and yet learning so much from this Women in Ministry series. In this video I realize it's because the bulk of this series is about presenting extrabiblical ideas, and then pointing out why they are wrong. This is extremely valuable, also for the reason you point out that the big debate implies that there's so much material that I might've overlooked. It is a little sad though, that the majority of this subject matter is not actually theology but false teaching. I guess you described the same feeling about researching this. Climbing down so many rabbit holes that turned out to be empty.
Yep, for many people he won’t be able to just tell them what is right, so he has to spend hours defeating what is wrong. Also, sometimes I struggle getting started on a task, even sharing the Gospel, unless I feel fully prepared. I’m supposed to learn and go share the gospel but I often procrastinate going by telling myself I’m still learning when really I’m being cowardly, But having said that and touching on something else you mentioned. I don’t think we will ever be done learning or reinforcing our learning. Which is another reason we have to go and share the gospel because we will never finish learning.
Notice Anna in Luke chapter 2, she was a Prophetess, and spoke to all about Jesus. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; and she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. Luke 2:36-38
I really, really understand you saying, if a person disagrees with you then they need to give details, show how they understand what you are saying, and present their biblical position opposing your positionz with Scripture. It has amazed me how many people, saints even, will reply to my post(s) with "WRONG" then run and hide. They get totally ignored. God Bless
You need to know 2 things. #1) Understand Deborah well (I have a short free postable essay.) #2) Understand and know, that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher. (That is another free essay.) Commentary with scripture, with limited opinions.
A number of times I've been given a prophecy for a congregation that I'm visiting for the first time. Each time I have written it down, gone up to the side of the front or sent the friend who invited me, to submit it to the pastor to consider, as led by the Holy Spirit. Looking back upon these events, I'm struck by how safe I felt in operating in my gifts, under the protective covering of the authority structure, which is designed to protect the flock and the person given the prophesy. Haha, also the pastors were able to read it, giving me anonymity, sparing me all the responsibility that public speaking can entail. If some folks in a new congregation come to know you have a type of gift...word of wisdom, knowledge and/ or prophesy...well, too often than not, they flock to you for a "word from God". This is not how the Holy Spirit works...it's akin to treating The Almighty God, like your butler, where you pull the cord and He arrives at your command. It is at this juncture the gifted and the one asking for a sign or a personal word, supernaturally, that both parties often unwittingly stumble into the snare of divination, the counterfeit. It is important for the one being asked to teach those asking the difference. By pointing them immediately to the The Living Word, reading their Bible and making daily personal quiet time/prayer with Jesus, you are able to encourage them about the very real benefits of having a surrendered commitment to following Jesus. "My sheep will hear my voice and they will follow Me." Teaching them to "fish" instead of trying to pull one out of your metaphorical magic hat. Huge problem in the body of Christ today with the forbidden areas of divination, the territory of the occult, passing for unadulterated spiritual gifting. Sadly rampant.
💙 What heard you teach here, we discussed tonite. I’m trying to watch these videos everywhere I go. Today on my iPad on my dashboard listening to you as I go to pick up people. Thank you so much I’m learning so much! Be Blessed.
i believe paul teaches us to test all things and be sure it lines up with scripture. I am surprised at the thought of not checking things out just bc the man is an elder...there are many many messed up elders and leaders in the churches. It is sad..but true..it is hard to find a church with a great and consistently biblical teaching ..
Of course we check things. Much of my ministry is doing that. I’m speaking about the fact that there is no official procedure for teaching like there is for prophecy.
@@MikeWinger Just a note: Jesus was not being taken to the temple to be circumcised. Circumcision was performed on the 8th day, probably in the home. The trip to the temple was for the offering of the sacrifice for Mary's purification, on the 40th day for a male child (80th day for a female child). See Luke 2:22; Leviticus 12:2-8. 😁👍👍
I have several thoughts about your comment, and I am not sure if any of them will apply but here they are. One of the points that is made by Mike is that the church should test the character of an elder before appointing that man as an elder. So, the "testing" comes before the appointing. Now it is human nature to hide our sin and there will be some who become elders who have hidden sins that would otherwise prevent that. Find a church that has pastoral leadership that you can trust. I think it is harmful for us to become part of a church and be so cynical that we cannot give any trust to church leadership. Finally, there are many elders/pastors that I have known over the years that I think have met the requirements, they are of good character, and they are knowledgeable teachers, yet there is no one bible teacher that I ever have agreed with 100% on every point. I am satisfied that they are knowledgeable and sincere in their teaching and that they are accurate on all the essential doctrines and rely on the Bible as their authority. Testing is fine (I am thinking of the Bereans who tested Paul's teaching against scripture), but don't listen with an intent to just find their mistakes.
Thank you for your study on Egalitarian / Complementarian this helped me understand what the Bible says about it and now I believe I am a Complementarian and can show from the Bible why. To God be the Glory 🙌
One might include Jesus speaking to the woman at the well as a teaching moment for her, and that she then went on to share with others as a testimony to her newfound faith. That doesn't make her a Rabbi or a teacher herself, but others can learn from her experience.
So let me get this straight...women have been shown repeatedly to be capable of fulfilling a "pastoral role" within scripture, but people still hold onto the idea that they should not be pastors/elders? What does the label have to do with anything, practically speaking? How many pastor moments are women allowed to have per day before it goes against Paul?
@@uhitsethan zero. Why do you think Jesus never ever appointed a woman or women to be apostles? The criteria for a pastor is this. A HUSBAND of one wife, with his house in order. Obedient children. He is to be beyond reproach. No scandal. Calm, gentle, compassionate and have self control. There is an authority scale so to speak in the house of God and in the home. First of all, the woman sinned first and because Eve caused Adam to sin, she was put under him in authority but equals at the foot of the cross only. There is nothing wrong at all for a woman to teach children (male and female) but she is not to stand before men and preach with authority in any way shape or form. People say, what if she feels called to do it. If she feels called to preach, it is of her own volition because Christ would be contradicting himself if he told a woman to stay preaching. The third and most important reason women are not allowed to ask questions openly in church is because it will bring Shame upon her husband, her causing him to look as if he is not teaching her. And 4th, simply because THE BIBLE SAYS SO. That's it and that's all. If a woman can't trust what the Bible says, saying that NO WOMAN IS TO PREACH WITH AUTHORITY, then she is willfully and purposefully being disobedient. All women preachers are false teachers. ALL OF THEM... if they are preaching, they are doing it of their own will and are not called by God
@@uhitsethan I don't understand why you say that how many pastoral moments does a woman have to have before she goes against God. 1st of all come at 0 because she's not allowed to in any way shape or form a preach on the street in a house or in a church or anywhere else for that matter with authority. Secondly, why do you say how many pastoral moments does she have to have before she goes against Paul? Why do you say Paul? The Bible was not written by man except for except for the fact that he was the Pen. Jesus is the author that's holding The pen and Paul Matthew James Titus Jude Moses David Solomon et cetera were the pen held by God as He wrote down the scripture. Nothing in the Bible is of men. The Bible chalky states that the vibe was GIVEN THROUGH INSPIRATION OF GOD for doctrine, reprove and teaching, instruction and correction. The words in the Bible about women are not of Paul, but OF GOD HIMSELF.
@@bigcountrymountainman9740 well I'd encourage you to watch the video. I'm sure the reasoning for my position is in there somewhere. But I have two questions about your responses. 1. You say that all women preachers are false preachers. To what extent? Does this mean they are actively and consistently preaching falsehoods? 2. If a woman feels called to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, you say this is not actually from Christ. If not Christ, then why do women all around the world think they are called to preach? Are they called by Satan? And to quickly address your question about why I said Paul, I meant Paul's writing. I'm not making a statement here against biblical inerrancy. I am just repeating what Paul said in 1 tim 2:8 where he says all of this is what he wants.
@@lyterman Webster's dictionary was literally changing definitions in the online dictionary when the definition didn't line up with what some Democrat was saying. This has happened a few times recently but I especially remember it being talked about last summer.
Hey Mike, I think you are doing an excellent job with your teaching. I’m learning a lot and I like that you even say to your listeners that they are still under the authority of the local pastor and not yourself. That may even be something that needs to be repeated. So far, since I haven’t heard your final application, the only pushback I have is when you were discussing the passage in support of women being deacons. It was 1 Timothy 3:11 I believe. At first I flat out rejected your argument, then I decided to actually consider if it had merit. I can definitely see how you could come to your conclusion, but it just doesn’t make sense to me that it would switch from instructions for men, then to women, and then back to men. Again, I can’t point to any specific passage to strike down your argument, and maybe it’s my strong complementarian background, but this is the one passage you’ve discussed that I still strongly disagree with your view.
Hi Mike really appreciate your thoroughness and time you've put into this series. And, the effort you've put into being balanced and fair with your review of the the different arguments. I looked up 1 Timothy 2:12 in an interlinear. A scripture you mentioned. At the risk of pre-empting a future video, I found this. The word for "teach" is defined by Strongs as "I teach, direct, admonish." Thayers lexicon includes "to discharge the office of teacher, conduct oneself as a teacher" as a part of it's discourse. From this the idea of teacher looks to be an authoritative role. Paul would then be making a point about authority (office) over a man rather than the ability to teach. Another thought I had was about our motives. Churches I have experienced seem to make too much of leaders and leadership. How important is leadership (authority over) at the end of the day. Is it another form of promoting self or not. Motives.
Thank you this last section was so helpful for me! I'm so glad for your guidance concerning this topic and God's Word in general :) God's Grace be with you
@Paster Mike, I would love to see you deep dive why we call the Holy Spirit a "he" when according Origen (c. 185-254) wrote that the Holy Spirit was a "she", in fact, calls the Holy Spirit Mother. The Aramaic word "rucha", the ancient Hebrew word "ruach" which means spirit and ancient Hebrew word for the presence of God "Shekinah" are all feminine. I think we loose sight of the fullness of the Divine by not acknowledging that God's 3 aspects includes a male and a female spirit. Sure the ancient Greek word for spirit is gender neutral, but that doesn't change what the Jews of the time of Jesus believed and taught...it is just a shortcoming of ancient Greek. I attended a Messianic Christian church a few times and they refer to the Holy Spirit as "she"...which led me down the road of why they were doing that since I had been taught it was "he". I hope you at least give this some thought. God bless you and your ministry...I have learned so much and continue to.
Mike, hi, appreciate your heart and thorough work. Just one item I'd like to submit, that being the point you made in another video regarding that women cannot judge prophecy. I think there are two difficulties with this. One 1 Cor. 14 states, "Let the prophets speak two or...three, and let the others judge." It's says "let 'the others' judge," not "let the men judge." Furthermore, what of the situation where there is a gathering of non-cessationist women, say a women's service/conference etc., and someone prophesies, your view would make it impossible for anyone to judge it
Can you talk about what you believe woman can do in ministry? For example, can women be youth directors, worship leaders, college ministry leaders, etc?
I have learnt so much and finally I can sense some peace in my heart with that matter! I really thank You, Brother Mike, for that wonderful teaching series 🌹❤️🌹❤️🌹
Argument 2: The former demoniac wasn't being trained to be a rabbi over the course of an afternoon, he was being trained to be an evangelist. He was sent back to his town to teach people about the power of thekingdom of God. This is still ministry training and does not disqualify this argument for women in ministry.
@@thealexmarriott Woman are apart of ministry, Mike agrees that woman can teach, prophecy, and do many things in the ministry. But they cannot be elders, to sit at the feet of someone(learning in general) does not mean you can have the highest level of authority in a church. The two aren't related.
@Jon Dewey See the problem is you're viewing the issue based on denominations and their views instead of the word of God(the scriptures). Mike Winger isn't making his arguments and rebuttals based on what the denominations/traditions are, but what the scripture says. Also most denominations, especially the Catholic church, have women as not being a high authority. Christians shouldn't get their knowledge from what different traditions dictate, but by studying the word of God. No matter what you think of the issue, you can't say Mike Winger(and I don't think you did) isn't getting his viewpoint from scripture.
@@thealexmarriottI don't think sitting at Jesus ' feet " implies" ministry training. It demonstrates love, devotion, humility, teachability, and a willingness to choose the most important thing, ie time with the Lord, over the distractions and duties Martha was more concerned about.
Hey Mike! Thank you so much for these videos. I listen to these and a lot of other apologetics/theology things (Ruslan, Allen Parr, Voddie Baucham, etc.) During my 12 hr shifts at work. It makes the day go by much faster. And thank you for really studying and seeking scripture for answers to complicated questions like this.
Hi Mike! Thank you for your really comprehensive and well thought Bible teaching! I found your channel lately and have listened through Jesus in OT and epistle of Peter series etc and this really blesses me and has changed me and I have learned so much even I have been a believer in Jesus all of my life. In my country in those congregations I have been during my life there has always been elders that are men and the leading pastor is just one of them, we have also woman pastors but not usually as the leading one. I think it's found really important that "elders" is a group sharing the responsibility and overseeing each other. I don't recognize these identifications here, "complementarian"/"egalitarian" but there is ongoing discussion about the very topic as well, maybe just less polarized. I have this understanding that we go wrong when we see beeing "the head" through flesh. If we think husband should be just ruling over his wife as a dictator or that (man)elders in congregation have a position of an emperor and "women can't correct a man" or can't have anything to teach to men, we are giving up to worldly desires and our flesh. It's pride and desire for power. We ought to see how the first head Jesus is the head. He bears the heaviest responsibility, he wants to see his body to flourish. He gave an example of being the servant of others and washing the disciples feet when they were pondering who is the greatest of them. The Bible instructs to have such men as elders who have this attitude of carrying the greatest burden and responsibility and serving the whole body rather than ruling over others and being above any teaching (especially any coming from women). As a woman one could see this as such a gentle care from the Lord and leaving her full space to do what He calls her to do. If we start to mess up with flesh it just goes so weird.
Just a note: Jesus was not being brought to the temple to be circumcised. Circumcision was performed on the 8th day, probably in the home. The trip to the temple was for the offering at the time of His mother's purification, 40 days after the birth of a male child (80 days for a female child). See Luke 2:22; Leviticus 12:2-8.
Pastor Mike, I was wondering if you could share a little glimpse of how you learn all the stuff you do about the Bible? Your insights are profound, well thought through. and wise. Even your specific fleeting thoughts. For example, Paul vs Saul and how it might be reference of the Greek. Such a minute detail is thought about in a meta-narrative light. I know you have built your whole ministry on the idea of thinking biblically about everything, but it interests me to think about how you don’t have a Mike winger resource for yourself, like I do. Can you share a little bit of what the research/ mentorship/ thinking biblically process works for you? Do you have a general outline you follow? Thanks in advance for your time and energy. You are truly, a blessing of a resource from God to me, and thousands others in our walks.
Distortion of biblical texts taken out of context seems to often follow those with too firm of a stance and an unwillingness to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. I always appreciate how much work you obviously do on any of the topics you cover, presenting both sides of the argument thoroughly. Thank you.
Testimony: In the USA, years ago, I was involved in an independent charismatic fellowship that was very strong in teaching the word, both internally and with outside teachers. Based upon the "one flesh" principle, every married woman was able to participate in church activities together (under the covering/authority) of her husband. Thus, only men were elders (rulers) BUT, they operated in unity & unison with their wives. Unmarried-divorced or widowed (mature believing women) could also minister (teach the congregation) under cover/authority of the eldership. Church government was based upon the foundational ministries: apostle & prophets & include pastors, teachers & evangelists... All men. It is when a believer is "in the Spirit" that there is no male or female. Thus a wife submits to her husband even as the husband submits to the Christ within her. Modern churches are usually governed by a single (head) pastor... this is NOT biblical. Pastors are primarily shepherds. This was very practical and worked well. There are many problems at the extremes (ordinating women or forbidding women). Doctrine is important but its application is where "the rubber meets the road."
My testimony of changed views on women in ministry. I quit the responsibility of a counselor in my church because of a crisis. They told me I had to find someone to replace me. Against all my previous convictions I suggested a women who I see as spiritually strong, intelligent and able to handle this crises. She was excepted and she did an excellent job to solve the crisis. Right now in my opinion she is the most spiritual person in the team, the only one who actually serves the church instead of those other men and women who just want to give orders but do nothing. Only later on I realized I was only focused on the crises itself, and I didn't even think if it would be biblical to suggest a women. I usually never wanted to have women in roles of spiritual leadership but in these days that debate was completely out of my mind. I just felt this was how God wanted to lead our church, and I'm really confident to say that God guided both this women and me (and many other involved) to help our church overcome some great struggles. Maybe God is adapting his solutions to our ways of organizing our churches, or maybe he sometimes sends a Deborah when the men are too weak.
Being a man is not the only requirement for pastoral ministry. An elder/pastor must also be temperate, not easily angered, hospitible, and have a good reputation with outsiders (unbelievers), etc. Yet, I know pastors/elders who are not hospitable - who are easily angered - etc. If I were to pritoritise these qualifications - I would perhaps put gender lower down the list. I personally believe that we must distinguish between the IDEAL and the REAL - and unfortunatley the world in which we live is not ideal. I believe that God can and will call women into leadership roles when men are either unable or unwilling to respond to God's call..... (e.g. Deborah). In recent centuries, many women have been used by God to plant and establish Christ's church, as missionaries, in foreign lands. Women have often gone where men have been either unable or unwilling to go. I do not believe that this is the ideal - but nevertheless, God used them.
You cannot put rules in order, and say one is more important than others. All rules must be followed. Just because a rule is abused or ignored, doesn't license you or anyone else to ignore a different rule. In such cases both parties are in sin and error. It doesn't matter which rule is ignored. We must walk in God's ways. Jesus said: Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity!
Prophetesses, missionaries, church planters etc were never in question. This question is specifically about *elders* as a fix role of authority in a local church. Women can do anything outside that role according to the Bible.
min 9 on Kenneth Bailey. I used to live in Cyprus and Dr Bailey would come every year to take time off to a retreat area (Pafos) and he would present topics of common interest to a small group. I was blessed to be part of his group of hearers and indeed NT Wright is correct in how he represents Dr Bailey's position on women because I heard it myself. Unfortunately, in those days no one recorded his presentations, he would always give us one sheet with the verses and the structure of the passages but the rest was from memory.
Time Stamp Guide:
0:00 - Intro
1. 7:12 Persecuted women = women leaders
2. 17:50 Jesus trained women to be rabbis
3. 28:23 If NT women are priests, they can be elders, too
4. 59:35 Women prophets = women elders
5. 1:33:38 Spiritual gifts in women means they can teach and lead
~ 2:08:53 Today’s conclusion and summary
Your Timestamp guide seems to be missing all the Timestamps of Mike's counter argument summaries. Hahaha.
Because they are the general topic.
@@guygifford These are the specific time stamps he asked me to find for him, but there may be additional spots in the video you’d like to personally mark. Feel free to note those in the comments!
so Mike is egaltarian ?
@@punishedgoy9131 No. He is a soft complementarian.
Hey Mike, Sorry for the issue with Logos. I'm the German tech-support person for Logos and here is the solution: The community highlights have been activated by default for some users. You can disable them under the visual filters. A personal note: THANKS for all your great content which is in-depth, funny, helpful and challenging all the time.
Hey! It's cool to see you here!
Also, the basic Logos software is free and includes a lot of content and functionality. There is a lot of additional content available for purchase, and that’s where it can get pricey. But I use it every day and find it is incredibly useful. And I am not a pastor, either.
Awesome! Thank you bc I've been having trouble with mine, and you saved me the trouble of sending an email. 💜
Wow
One of the biggest issues with so many of your leanings towards egalitarianism in some of your arguments is due to emphasizing descriptive texts rather than prescriptive texts. The two texts that you mentioned patriarchal individuals use to refute your position are prescriptive. They carry a lot more weight.
I listened to 6 hours of this study yesterday. I most certainly don’t care how long the videos are, I’ve never been pulled this deep into this topic and I’ve found it absolutely enthralling
Why not?
It is incumbent on every one of us to search the Scriptures and be taught by the Spirit.
"Chinese Whispers" = error
I am a Mary. Having sound theology helps me lay age appropriate foundations for my kids. And I love the discovery of God in it. I’m emphatically not in favor of the priesthood for women. Once had a friend lament my not wanting to be ordained as if my interest and knowledge was wasted. It is not. It’s a treasure.
But when He is really precious to our souls, nothing will be too good, nothing too costly for Him. Everything we have, our dearest, our most priceless treasure, we shall pour out upon Him, and we shall not count it a shame to have done so. - Watchman Nee in the Normal Christian Life
Praise God for you to be "wasted" on Him.
@@lbee8247 Amen and indeed to being His own!!! 🙏
God bless you
I relate to everything you just said more than you know. Can we be friends please? Lol
Like I even relate to someone close telling me that my knowledge and abilities are wasted if I do not pursue what she wants me to, what I don’t agree with me pursuing. I related it to ALL
Don’t worry about the length of your videos! We can break them up with the pause button if we need to. We come to you for thorough, Biblical truth. Length of the video is irrelevant. ❤️🙏🏼 Praying for continued wisdom and discernment as you tackle the tough subjects for which Christians need more clarity. ❤️✝️❤️
Yeah most videos I break them up over 2-3 days of watching
Right, the longer the better!
I speed them up to get through faster
Yes! I love his long videos. So much good material to soak in! 🧽 📖
Second that.
My beautiful wife has made a church and made herself a pastor it’s Pentecostal denomination. She now justifies sleeping until noon everyday praying and fasting. I’ve gone through scripture with her about being a biblical wife but now she is above that and now she has hardened her heart to me. I have tried to change my thoughts and get her back but all she says is go to her church. I’ve told her I would leave the church I go to and we need to find a God fearing church together but now her pride is to great and she will not turn from it. She talks more to the men that goes to her church than me and this is been going on for over a year and now. The good thing that came out of this is I have started studying scripture truly myself. Please pray for my marriage.
Prayers🙏
🙏🙏🙏
🙏
🙏
Show her the scriptures. And she should submit to her husband. She is in conflict with God's word. So feminism, Pride is the spirit. God resists the proud but gives grace to the Humble. Your wife has a spirit of pride, and a spirit of Rebellion that is the same as Witchcraft. By ignoring scripture she in in conflict with God and in rebellion. This has gone as far as being in rebellion to her husband. Now she has become wayward she has gone astray to her own way. She must realize that christ Jesus is the only way! She needs correction with the scripture and repentance, and prayer to cast out the Religious spirit. Religion kills but Christianity saves. She should be rebuked with scripture
When I became a Christian I had such a hunger for the knowledge of God and to understand the Bible and I still have.
It must have come from God because I never cared about it before.
Some women thought it was odd that I wanted to learn stuff that 'the men usually study' but no one told me I shouldn't.
I, too, as a woman, am very interested in doctrine and theology. We are more likely to be at home with the kids and should be able to teach them about God and scripture-- kinda hard to do when we don't know scripture. Or be able to evangelize in our everyday lives, or even being prepared to give an answer for the hope in us-- should know scripture to help back up what we share.
@@cfrost87 I totally agree. That sounds very sound and wise. Thank you for that input. Lots of problems find a solution in a healthy balance between the huge task of being a mother and the need to keep being a "learning child" of God. Our Heavenly Father knows how to help and bless mothers. Blessings.
What does the Bible say about age of consent?
@@paulallen7962 What does that have to do with the topic at hand?
@@cfrost87 Nothing, I just thought these knowledgeable ladies might know the answer because I can't find it.
Women have been treated badly because of sin. So grateful you created this video.
True, it’s a lack of understanding. I wonder why Paul throws woman under the bus in 1 tim2:14
@@tompfister9951 he does no such thing... If this passage offends you then perhaps you need to pray about it and look into your own heart to figure out why
9 Likewise the women are to dress in suitable apparel, with modesty and self-control. Their adornment must not be with braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive clothing, 10 but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. 11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first and then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But she will be delivered through childbearing, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control.
@@janeEyreAddict not sure what you’re saying?
He mentions the garden saying woman messed up. After he states a “role” for them. I’ve met ppl that call Paul sexist and twisted. How is that so if god is inspiring him?
@@tompfister9951 nothing you said makes sense
@@tompfister9951 If you get affected by people enforcing their modern world views such as "sexism" on God who created both men and women and has complete authority to give them specific roles, you need to recheck your trust in the scriptures.
I absolutely love the spirit and heart in which you disagree with others. In every video you show a loving spirit even to those who do not do the same in return. This is something I struggle with and watching your video's helps remind me how I should act.
“In necessary things, unity; in doubtful things, liberty; in all things, charity.” Richard Baxter
based
Yes! Love his book, 'Call to the Unconverted'
Great quote. I think Augustine said it first but doesn’t matter because it’s a timeless truth.
Some egalitarians would abuse this quote and say "this topic is 'doubtful', therefore we demand liberty". As Mike is showing in this series, the Bible is a lot clearer on this topic than many egalitarians (and strong complimentarians) want to acknowledge.
@@friedrichrubinstein yes we must make sure to back up our claims with scripture, but where scripture is ambiguous, then we should not be as dogmatic
I haven't "Amen-ed" so much in I don't even remember how long listening to your thoughts on coming up with roles around people and their unique gifts, in fact I rarely ever feel compelled to shout out those things, let alone from the rooftops! I feel like this has been an incredibly limiting factor in my search for ministry work as well as therefore in and for the churches and ministries I've been involved with so far. So Preach Preach Preach Preach! I didn't even know how much I needed to hear someone say that. Thank you! Seriously though, Preach it, and Amen!
Mike. I just looked at your notes for the first time. WOW! You are so thorough, so well-organized, so well-researched. You are doing such wonderful justice to the biblical issues you study. Thank you on behalf of the saints, and God BLESS you and your amazing ministry!
Mike thank you for doing this study- the most important thing is that we stick to the scripture not read into it our favorite pet beliefs. Your labor in the LORD has been a huge blessing to us all
This is an epic feat - this whole series. I don't pretend to listen to it all because, at this time, it's not all foremost in my mind. But I am enjoying what I do listen to very much and can tell it will be super valuable for many.
But also....cannot WAIT til the Hebrews study!
(No pressure! ;) )
Waiting for the Hebrews study.
Thank you, Mike and all his team of helpers (especially including his wife!) for the work and dedication that goes into this ministry. I pray it will bring good fruit and they'll be rewarded. I've been listening to this series in order when I could. Other times, like now, I listen to whatever episode of it I find out of order. Praying for Mike's recovery and for God to carry him and his sister through their grief.
I was watching and clapping and shouting Amen when you started talking and speaking on the Priesthood!!! Thanks for all your time, research and study on this topic!! You have me "Thinking Biblically"!!!!
The The Bible says God prefers for people to be in LGBT relationships.
Anyone that teaches the LIE of monetary tithing, sells anything using the gospel, or teaches that same-sex marriage is a sin CHOOSES to die with the wicked.
Luke 10:7 states the only wages for ministering are eating and drinking whatever you are given.
Also, know that rich people will all die. You can't be a Christian, sit on all kinds of money, watch your fellow brothers and sisters starve, suffer, or be homeless, choose to do nothing about it, and think that it's ok. Those are all wolves.
Mathew 19:12 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. Eunuchs made that way by others were abused in some way and something inside of them blocks off a certain type of body but it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused. Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex-characteristics but opposite in regards to gender. Notice, it states God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships. Leviticus, Corinthians, and Timothy were translated wrong by Billy Graham. Those verses are actually referring to pedophilia. Romans 1:27 All of the men were male in regards to gender, all of the women were female in gender. It is not referring to Eunuchs (where one partner is transgender). Also, it had nothing to do with marriage of any kind. They were trying to procreate during orgies so God did it on purpose. Anyone that continues to teach same sex marriage is a sin when the Bible says God prefers for people to be in LGBT relationships will also die by their own choice.
In order to be a church building, the place must house people inside of it. Otherwise it is just another private money-making business part of Babylon that furthers satan's agenda. Stay out of the fake churches.
I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6 and Acts 3:22-23 says it will come to pass that anyone that fails to listen to me will be UTTERLY destroyed from among the people. Again, everyone has a choice.
And anyone that deletes my messages CHOOSES to reject Jesus Christ Himself and that means they also CHOOSE to die with the wicked.
I am Elijah so that means any discrepancies in the holy books are ultimately decided by me. I am also to usher in the Messiah! Be ready: Jesus is coming back!
WORLD PEACE IS COMING!!
By the way, anything based on gender norms no longer applies. In fact, the last will be first and the first will be last. It's women that will be ruling the kingdom of heaven........
And rapture is not what most people think. Its when God's true people shine with the glory of God and are miraculously healed. Read Malchi 4:2-4 and the verses surrounding it...........
Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8-11 is talking to the thieving church leaders. Every single major church and fake preacher on television knew since August of 2020 if they brought the money back they were never supposed to take for ministering then God would end Covvid but they love money so much they intentionally chose to kill everyone instead of repenting..
Sodom was bout rape and greed, nothing to do with marriage of any kind . . . . . . . . ......
Elijah, honey, I have no earthly idea what your smoking, ingesting or drinking but I sure hope you someday see the total adsurdity and blasphemy of your understanding of the Holy Scriptures.
May God have mercy on you.
@@Elijah-ri6xo Read Romans 1:26-28, Jude 1:7, and Read through the entire chapter of Romans 1 and then Jude. Then go back to Genesis 18:23 - 19:15 and if you are too busy to read it here is a link:
@@Elijah-ri6xo Hello Elijah, actually if I deleted your message right now I would NOT be rejecting the true Jesus. He is my Lord and Saviour regardless of your message here.
Just warning you, you are spreading lies about God which is pretty serious.
Scripture is abundantly clear; God made us male and female, and He said to be fruitful and multiply, which you can only do as a male and female. And He makes it clear in many passages that He considers the act of homosexuality as an “abomination”.
“Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”
Genesis 2:24 ESV
“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination;”
Leviticus 20:13 ESV
“For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.”
Romans 1:26-28 ESV
Pastor Mike has a whole series on homosexuality if you’re interested: biblethinker.org/homosexuality/
@@HopeKuhn Thank you! I forgot about his website I sent the person a link to a playlist I made that contained his series!
Great video Pastor Mike! I really enjoyed the discussion around the gifts and offices.
But my favorite part was the beautiful sermonette in the middle about the priesthood of believers. Just beautiful, thank you for taking the time to dive deep really thrush out these issues.
Mine too Brooke!!!!!!
That was mine too!
This I absolutely what I was looking forward to in this series. Thank you Mike and the whole BibleThinker team!
thanks for putting this out there Mike, a lot of good stuff.
I so appreciate all of your studies, breaking topics and issues down, searching them out thoroughly. I'm really encouraged by and thankful for your boldness in stepping into the ministry God has gifted you with and called you to, even it being something brand new and unusual for the regular CC "set up." 😁Makes me feel less of a weirdo,😊 and it's really encouraging for me in this present season of once again being led to waters not many wanna tread, but I truly very happily do for Christ.
(Ps: Please, continue praying for the Church in Ukraine, and for an awakening.) 🙏🙏
What this week's teaching showed me is that we really need to look at 1 Tim 2:12 and consider that it says in context "woman should not teach as to USURP authority." We cannot ignore the word usurp as many do. It does not say that woman cannot have authority, or that they cannot teach. They simply shouldn't teach false doctrines (just as Paul repeats over and over to Timothy) and they shouldn't try to take authority as by force.
Great work Mike! I still fall into the egalitarian side where that a woman could teach and preach and even lead a church as a pastor, as long as it is in proper order of GIVEN authority (not taken) and teaching sound doctrine. She too has to follow the same qualifications as
any other elder, other than it being she is the wife of one husband, which of course we could simply say - she is in a faithful monogamous marriage and not sleeping around. The same way we summarize that qualification for any other elder when we don't have on our complementarian goggles.
Yes, agreed, on the 1 Timothy 2 passage. Paul uses a word for authority that is only in that passage. It's not the regular kind of authority, as in an org chart, but it's a word meaning abusive authority, as you mentioned in your comment.
God wouldn't want anyone to have that kind of authority over anyone else. For this reason, I believe that 1 Tim 2:12 leaves an opening for women to have the right kind of authority over a mixed group, but not the wrong kind. Remember, the proclivity in the garden was for the woman to take charge and for the man to acquiesce to their destruction. God puts in these guardrails to keep that from happening again. But, in no way, does it mean that a woman can't have a God-given authority.
There were already precedents of this in the Bible in the Old Testament.
@@alexhamilton624 Thank you Brent! We can't pretend that culture matters everywhere else in the bible but ignore it here. Artemis Cult is the same reason Paul explained in context the proper order of creation. The Artemis Cult which was based in Ephesus taught that woman was created first and had authority over man... and they also taught that Artemis judged woman with death during childbirth, hence the reason Paul encouraged them that they are saved by childbirth (the birth of Christ).
@@thebiblemind4266 that is actually not proven at all. It is a matter of much scholarly debate
@@BEABEREAN10can you tell me more about how we know he's taking about an Artemis Cult, I literally read so many translations of this verse, because I'm like even if this verse is true, what is this random interruption to talk about being saved by childbirth? Some translations have shown it is "Women will also be saved through the Childbirth".
This series has been very helpful and affirming, especially in the sense of getting to the heart of Scripture and the heart of God, and I thoroughly appreciate the work that you are doing here. Additionally to the main topic (focusing on roles of women) the basic structure and organization of the church is interesting to me, and I’d love to see a thorough examination of that, explanation of titles, etc. the term “elder” is used very differently in most churches than to describe the role of what is typically called a head pastor-elders being more like a set of support individuals who advise and encourage the leader. I’m interested in the terminology and Scriptural support for (or openness because of no particular direction given) the way that churches organize. The idea of creating positions specific to unique gifting is along those lines, as well.
Hi Mike,
I feel truly blessed with the your videos you share with us.
I believe this is a hard topic you are taking on, and I think you are trying you best to give a biblical perspective about it. Even if you don't quit agree with it yourself.
I see the videos is helping a lot of people out there, and a see a lot of people getting upset about it.
I pray that you have strength to endure the hardships of the path you have taken. My God guide you and give you strength.
This is your suffering and cross to bear, and hopefully in the end more people will be closer to God and followers of Jesus.
Thanks for teaching us to think biblically.
I find the whole authority arguments very very interesting. I don't try to read too much into the heart of them. Anyways I thought of a useful analogy. The presence of 3 branches of government keeping one another in check via their roles and authority would not lead someone to believe that the roles are interchangeable. A supreme court justice would not be offered the same role of authority or influence as a senate member.
Here it is mid August and a unexpected fur grandbaby sitting needed and i'm so enjoying this series. Be encouraged I am enjoying this. Learning so much as I am reading the Bible chronilogical as well. Your ministry continues to bless me.
As I watch through this excellent video series, it appears to me that the most fundamental problem with this whole issue gets blurred by the definition of words. (Is this what drove people apart at Babel?) Mike Winger has discussed this a number of times in the series, particularly the definition of pastor not being the same as the biblical elder, overseer or bishop and the definition of priest not being pastor. I can understand the frustration of people who think it is wrong to deny women the position of say, Administrative Pastor, or Worship Pastor, or Outreach Pastor, especially if these positions would not have been considered overseers in the first century church. I think many times in the past we have unfairly denied women opportunities and missed out on their contribution because we have incorrectly applied male exclusivity to positions in the church that don't deserve them. I can't see that anything Mike has presented would exclude women from many of these "pastoral" positions. Simply applying the 'new fangled' "Pastor" title to what in the first century would have been a deacon role, should not exclude women. Are we going to say men can only take out the church garbage because the position has been labelled "Waste Pastor"? I don't think so.
Alternatively, I don't think the correct response to these past injustices is to demand that everyone can do everything. To solve the pastoral exclusion problem by saying that women can now perform all pastoral roles is not the right approach either. The solution is to do exactly what Mike has done. Take a step back. Take a deep breath and then calmly and patiently try to discern the will of God in this matter. If we can't agree that we all need to submit to God's will, then you have more serious problems with your walk than this issue. (See Part 1 of this series)
Thank you Mike, for taking so much time to shine so much light on such a contentious and relevant topic.
“Waste pastor!!” Good one!😂
@@shanebailey6341 Ordained means recognized by a religious group as a leader. Pastor relates to being a Shepard, but generally means a leader. Administrative means taking care of the business related aspects of running the church not the religious aspects. Eg accounting, ordering supplies, building maintenance, set up for services. Pastor is not really a biblical term, which is what causes many of the problems. So if we only want to consider what the Bible says, then we need to stop using the term pastor.
@@shanebailey6341 That is not my experience. My church has had a Lead Pastor, a Teaching Pastor, an Administrative Pastor, a Worship Pastor, a Youth Pastor, a Children’s Pastor and a number of others. A number of these positions would be more like deacon roles, but because of the generic use of the term pastor, these have been historically limited to men. I don’t think a biblical case can be made for exclusion of women from the role of pastor, since the term is not used in the Bible. You need to look at the function the ‘pastor’ has and then relate it to the biblical roles the Bible actually discusses and evaluate each ‘pastoral’ role according to their biblical equivalents. Again, the confusion arises with titles and word definitions that have no biblical equivalence, as Mike Winger discusses.
@@shanebailey6341 I understand what you are saying, but the Bible only uses pastor in that one location, and it is not very gender specific there. The gender specific passages do not use pastor, which is were the confusion begins. I believe we both believe the same thing. My original point was that because we have historically excluded women from anything labelled pastor, and we have used pastor very broadly, we have denied women roles they should be able to hold.
My question to you then is, “Where do you get a biblical definition of the word pastor?” I don’t see any definition in Ephesians, only a listing. If you feel the definition has been diluted, where is the original definition found in scripture?
@@shanebailey6341 I agree, we agree.
As I stated at the beginning, this comes down to word definitions, and if they are not specifically defined in the Bible, I find it difficult to defend. You argue that the traditional meaning of Pastor should be well understood, but I contend that it no longer is, and since it is not defined in the Bible, why should this be a hill to die on. I can simply look at the biblical words like elder or bishop and ask if these align with a person’s actual role in the church.
In my childhood church, only men could have any leadership role, pastor, elder or deacon. The traditional definitions were clearly understood: men lead. That was the tradition.
I would argue that biblically defined roles, like bishop or elder are reserved for men; as indicated by scripture. Undefined titles like pastor, I’m not going to argue over. I’m not bound by tradition definitions only biblical ones.
As far as words like omnipotent, omnipresent and trinity, these are words that have been used to summarize concepts that can be clearly defended from scripture. Their definitions come from their actual meaning but if someone wants to argue that God is not omnipotent because the word is not in scripture, I will concede that, and simply argue that he is all powerful, which can be defended from scripture.
I’m not sure what we are discussing, since we agree we agree. I think you are bound to the traditional meaning of the word pastor, and I am not. The result from both our understandings appears to have the same outcome, so where do we go from here?
Mike, I think this might be my favorite video in this series so far. It felt a little more balanced and you made many great points. The vast effort you’ve put into this, as well as your striving to remain neutral, are very appreciated. As usual, I agree with you that most of these arguments are unconvincing for egalitarianism, especially if standing alone (I don’t base my own egalitarian view on any of these arguments). Still, I think there are some points to be made:
1) You mentioned you don’t consider this debate a “gray area.” You consider it sufficiently clear that one side is the winner. This is surprising to me, as I think the diversity of views among wise people on both sides, and the intense debate all around, is strong evidence that it is NOT as clear as you say. Typically, when I hear people say this issue is straightforward, I assume they’re simply not familiar with the issue and haven’t done their homework. I know that’s not true in your case, so I wonder how you could say/think this. Beyond that, I am genuinely confused as to what evidence you think is so strong on the complementarian side. So, if you see this, could you recommend the best book or resource that argues for complementarianism? I sincerely am trying to find something convincing, but everything I find uses poor, unconvincing arguments. Perhaps I’m just terribly unlucky? I’d also like to see such a source because, as I’ve mentioned before, you spend little time arguing FOR complementarianism and most of your time arguing AGAINST the antithesis. But debunking poor arguments for alternatives doesn’t directly prove one’s initial claim.
2) I was very happy to hear you reject the husband as “priest” of the home, even though this is likely to offend many complementarians. It reminds me of the book “Created to be His Helpmeet” by Michael and Debi Pearl. Debi tells a story in which she asked her husband to pray for something because, in her words, that would be bringing in the “big guns.” It’s so sad that she felt her husband’s prayers were more effective just because he’s a man! Still, you did say something about the husband being the “head of the home”, a phrase (and, I would argue, concept) that does not appear in the Bible. I’m curious to hear you develop this further in future videos, especially since rejecting the “priest” view of husbands somewhat neuters the sense in which the husband is “head.” If not the “priest”, who is in some way responsible for his family before God as a sort of intermediary, in what sense is he “head?” But this can wait for the video on that topic.
3) I appreciated your pushback against John MacArthur. Still, I think you and he are making the same mistake: he is using “women must remain silent” to interpret/qualify statements about women prophesying, while you are using statements about women prophesying to interpret/qualify “women must remain silent.” I’m open to correction if I’m misinterpreting anything here.
4) You said you’re not aware of any complementarians who believe the influence of women should be limited. John Piper, who is about as mainstream complementarian as you can get, says exactly this in chapter 1 of Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. For example, on page 51, while he does say women shouldn’t be prohibited from influencing men, the only way he lists in which it is appropriate for a woman to influence a man is through prayer (not directly, in other words). He then says “To the degree that a woman’s influence over man is personal and directive it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order.” In his view, if a relationship between a man and woman is very personal (like husband and wife), her influence over him must NOT be “directive.” And he actually claims this is “not necessarily owing to male egotism, but to a natural and good penchant given by God.” It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this.
5) The main thing that troubled me was the following comment: “It doesn’t matter if God doesn’t give you a reason, He’s God, you just obey. If He says only people with bald spots can be elders, we should obey it. If He said only people above 5’10’’ or below 5’5’’ inches can be elders, we should obey it.” This sounds pious, but there are serious problems with this mindset/argument. The first is that it’s irrelevant, as you yourself pointed out just prior to this regarding a different argument. The very debate is over whether God did, in fact, command that women cannot be elders. Serious scholars on both sides accept the authority of the Bible and want to follow what it teaches. Saying “if God commanded (insert here), would you obey it?” doesn’t move the debate forward.
The second problem, though, is it suggests God makes arbitrary commands. I don’t think you intended it that way, but I think it does nevertheless. I would hope that, if you conclude women cannot be elders, you believe there is some good reason for it (even if you don’t know or understand what it is). Yet, we should not merely blindly obey, but do our best to understand what God commands and why. This is how we grow in knowledge and character. If we say too quickly “God said it, so I’ll just do it and not worry about it”, we miss this opportunity. Ultimately, if you believe God commands something as strange as “elders must have bald spots,” which is more likely: that God actually commanded such a thing (and the reason is beyond our comprehension), or that you’ve misunderstood something? We can’t be too quick to accept something that appears nonsensical or arbitrary. This approach also increases the danger that we will come to wrong conclusions. Instead of trusting God implicitly, as it may seem, what we’re really doing is trusting our own interpretation.
The danger of this is self-evident. “If God commanded you to kill someone, would you do it?” “If God commanded you to fly an airplane into a tower, would you do it?” “If God said black people should be owned by white people”, would you accept this? These are unanswerable questions because they are preloaded with ungodly commands. We know they are wrong because we have a conscience and the ability (and obligation) to think through such matters. If I thought the Bible was saying something arbitrary (like only bald or white people can be elders), I would not blindly accept it. I would double and triple check to make sure I understood correctly, and I would demand a high burden of proof before I would accept it. This is what we must do in the debate over women, and this is the reason I reject complementarianism: it utterly fails to meet the biblical burden of proof we ought to demand of it (which would be more obvious if you spent more time presenting complementarian arguments themselves instead of just trying to debunk the antithesis). This is not to say our own understanding should be the final word. Certainly not! But neither does God intend for us to throw out all thought, all logic, all nudges of conscience. I know you would agree that the goal is to THINK biblically.
Part 2 coming, this was too long to fit!
I know you wrote this intended for Mike, but, truly, it was a delight reading your words! As a woman deeply drawn to ministry but very unsure of what to do, I'm still highly torn. In no way do I yet know where I truly stand, but you formulated your ideas incredibly well. It does not go unappreciated!
Hi Mike, I have been enjoying this series and am prepared to rethink my teaching a Sunday school class if need be. These issues are really important and confuse a lot of people. We recently lost a whole family because the wife got mad that our church allows women teachers (not in an elder role) and doesn't require headcoverings. She attributed her depression and mental issues to demonic oppression that resulted from visiting a holistic Doctor that someone in our church recommended and blames our church for that. Like if we were spiritual enough we could have helped her avoid any attacks from satan. At least those were some of her excuses for going ballistic on some of the members and pastor. It's really sad.
Hi Mike,
I love your ministry and have enjoyed learning from all your content. Thank you for being faithful to your gifts and teaching so effectively!
Always making incredible, Biblically backed, resources. Thanks for your ministry, Mike!
Things are starting to make sense and become clearer. Thank you for your thorough, biblical approach. May we all have ears to hear God's truth.
So grateful for this series. Thanks Mike.
Thank you so much for this thorough and thoughtful series on a very divisive topic for the church. I can only imagine the time you invested in to prepare for these videos. I especially appreciate the clarity, kindness and gentleness in presenting your arguments. It is so rare these days to hear sound arguments based on thorough understanding of scripture and research, instead of just throwing entrenched opinions at each other.
Thank you so much for this extensive work on the topic! I’ve waited a long time to hear an honest and thorough discussion on this! I’m really enjoying it! Appreciate your ministry so much! Keep up the good work!
Mike
This is a topic I have been studing and contending with, within myself, for a very long time.
You have done such an all-encompassing study looking at this topic from every angle.
For the first time I feel I can make a clear decision based on the whole scripture concerning this issue. Debated from every corner instead of being tainted by the teachers preference.
And it is so freeing!
I recognize the time, effort and labour of love you have ploughed into this.
I have benefited greatly from your labour, and for this I sincerely thank you.
I don't know if this has been said or not yet, but the way I understand the scriptures regarding the wife submitting to the husband and the husband loving the wife as Christ loves the Church requires a broader commitment from the husband: The wife submits to the husbands authoritative position in the household as a helper but the husband is required to view his relationship to the wife as 'willing to give himself for it', as Jesus gave up His life for us all. In my opinion, this is a 'bigger ask' of the husband: if a Godly husband is performing His role correctly, it doesn't mean that he lords over his wife: it means that he considers her completely from a position of love, and that, love unto death. I believe that the wife should also approach this from a place of love, and that is the secret of the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! They each seek the glory of the other, and desire to glorify one another. It is the consistent and eternal flow of love between them that they are all God yet the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, etc.
I am so thankful you are using your gifts to benefit us, Pastor Mike!
One thing Gods taught me through the bible is that the more I learn on a topic and the more confusing it gets, the more understanding I still need on that topic. Therefore I'm just not seeing all the truth yet, why I cant find any definitive answer. Not knowing the answer means we have more to grow still in our understanding, because there is a bigger picture here God wants to teach us! The truth is in there it will come to light, exactly on Gods timing like a huge puzzle being all put together., piece by piece till we understand his message! Then we get the revelation and its a very exciting time!
Exactly. I read the Bible daily for many years, but learning the puzzle pieces. I was only able to match about one piece a year. But after many years, the pieces are now being matched, seemingly non-stop.
Great job Mike. Your attention to the details blows me away. Thank you for your diligent research
First off, thank you so much for your hard work on this topic. It has been tremendously enjoyable and edifying!
Here's my push back: I would call a husband a "type" of priest in the home, not in the sense of mediation between his wife and God, but in that he is responsible for the spiritual direction of the household. Perhaps a better way to say it is to pursue spiritual prosperity for his family - not to "acquire" it, but to lead unto it. I think you could go further, stating that a husband ought to be a type of prophet (directing the family to obey the word of God) and king (protecting and leading with righteousness and justice).
The distinctions I want to make are that it's a "type" in the sense that it ultimately points TO Christ, not takes from Him, and that the family is a separate authority structure from the church.
I thought similarly however I heard man be the prophet of the home. But prophets should be perfect in the gift, but man is not perfect in the home. I don’t feel that’s a great comparison if you will.” Some husbands still get stoned verbally for not being perfect in the home lol. However husbands are to be Christlike of the home as head.
@@tompfister9951 I would not say a Prophet, but prophetic as in forth-telling the word of God. In that sense we are all supposed to be prophetic to the world around us.
Perhaps Mike is right and the terms are more trouble than they're worth to make the correct distinctions 🤷♂🙂
To prophecy is to pre-tell. I think the word prophecy or prophetic has gotten outta wack. For example to encourage or exhort or affirm is a better term. The big word in marriage is cherish. Which is I think in common wedding vows. Can’t remember off the top of my head. But I would suggest dive deeper and ask ourselves where does the word prophetic originate. Is it even a biblical term. It sounds like kind of prophet, which doesn’t seem to exist. In the Bible you were a prophet or not.(duet. 18) maybe this might be a good discussion for him to make a video on. There’s a whole debate on whether you can prophecy and be wrong, under grace... I wouldn’t trust a false gps anymore than a false prophet..
Although a pastor/priest is responsible for their flock a man is responsible as Adam for his wive and home...
These have been great videos! I have been learning all i can, lately relearning a lot and unlearning a lot of worldly things… as i do it becomes so apparent that my Grandma was the core to my Biblical teachings growing up (and still) I called her just last night to tell her that, and to give thanks to her and with her to God. Thank you for going into the nitty gritty on your channel, it’s been a huge blessing in filling in gaps on info i thought i knew and bringing to light things i have never heard before 🙏🏽
This was a very good teaching, thanks so much Pastor Mike for all your hard work and doing this to bless us, and making it available for free!
I love the Royal priesthood stuff in scripture 😃💜, that it’s for everyone in Christ because Jesus is every believers mediator between them and God. I also enjoyed the teaching you did on that in the 1 Peter series!
Also wanted to mention in response because I thought this was great and it goes with what you said: my Pastor taught his church members (anyone who was a member and wanted to learn it) a course in systematic theology (and my sister was one of the people) because he wanted to make sure his church had right theology, and also the elders to have right theology, and they did a good job making sure that the elders were men that are able to teach and have the qualities an elder should have. I always found both your teaching and his to always line up 😀👍🏻
Thanks for another helpful video, Mike! What I appreciate most about this series (and all your videos) is that you view the Bible as the ultimate authority. Therefore, you go where the Bible goes, rather than being swayed by popular opinion or even your own preference. Thank you for this biblical, detailed, thoughtful, and respectful series! I’m enjoying it and learning a lot!
Thank you Mike for making these videos. God bless you.
Mike, I am learning SO MUCH in addition to the topic of women in ministry - through your illustrations, cross references, historical context, etc. Thank you for doing this series!
"Extra Priest-y" ..... I laughed out at that! you made this youth ministry heart smile. thanks Mike
once again, Can't stress enough how necessary this series has een to many christians out here! Thanks.
Thank you Mike Winger for your thoughtful and meticulous ministry. It must be an immense amount of work to cover all of these topics.
Some of the questions I hope that you might have the time to explore in the future are:
- When a woman serve as a companion or "complement" to their husband who is an elder, is it unreasonable for her to, in some capacity, participate in the role as well?
- If a man is an elder at his church, would it be inappropriate to include him and his wife together as a couple of elders? (e.g., "These are two of our elders, John and Jane Smith")
- Assuming the church leadership considers the wife spiritually mature and qualified, if there happens to be an elder meeting at the church, should the man leave her at home, or does her complementary role include accompanying him as he serves and makes decisions with the other elders?
If a husband is an elder, and the wife is not, no you wouldn't refer to her as an elder. It's not a team. She wouldn't be performing the duties or holding responsibilities of an elder, so no she would not go to elder meetings and do elder things.
Thank you so much doing the hard work to present a complete study. I appreciate your humility, candor, and perseverance. Praying for you.
So far, my leanings are that women may be in a modern day “pastoral” role in areas such as women’s or Children’s ministry under the head male pastor. Today, the term “pastor” is so broad it’s not like how it used to be. People can be a pastor at a church and only provide prayer and counseling…so idk. I think people take on extreme ideas on both sides.
one might question if there even is an objective standard for being a "pastor" since women take a pastoral role all the time, they just don't have that label.
@@uhitsethan today, I don’t think there is much of one. It’s basically the same as being a deacon/deaconess at most churches I’ve seen. Mind you, I go to a reformed Baptist church that has absolutely no women in leadership and leans on the extreme end of complimentarianism. They think women in ministry is good and think women may instruct other women and the children but must be upright and godly etc. but may not be a deaconess or pray us out of service etc.
@@beckyideson its stuff like this that annoys me. This limit isn't done out of a fully understood and realized moral principle.
It’s like the term pastor has no clarity of meaning to people. It has little to no meaning or people don’t understand it’s role...
@@tompfister9951 I think there’s some of both. Like a pastor today isn’t always necessarily an “elder” in the Biblical sense. Some are and some aren’t. It’s touchy! Especially as a woman who has a gifting for teaching and public speaking and who has been told several times to use these gifts for God…the question is how? If I cannot lead a women’s group or serve in a pastoral role in women’s ministry even under a male head pastor, where and how can I use these gifts? I want to honor God with my actions! So I’m trying to be super careful in my approach but don’t want to ignore my gifts simply because of gender. Maybe online stuff like Mike does? Idk! Pray for me y’all.
Great video! I have one more video to watch in your series of women in ministry. This has been very very helpful to me. I am attending a complimentary church. They do have women Deacons and I was very happy to see that they are sticking to scripture. The women are teaching women, prophesying in the church, reading scripture. And of course helping with the children ministry. God bless you Mike and thank you so much for really taking the Bible serious and going off of what God says and not your opinion.
Hope this comment gets to you, Mike, in the midst of all you have to read through. It doesn't deal with this particular video (though it's been awesome beyond words to the praise of God and thanks to you). It concerns your previous one, "Mary the Apostle" and an insight of mine that may help you. When you referred to Burer and Wallace's research concerning the key prepositional phrase in Rom. 16:7b. It really made so much sense to me and I know just beginner scraps in Greek, if even that. After all, how else would one be able to distinguish between the two possible renditions of the phrase in question unless the cases of the relevant words in the phrase were different. If the phrase should be translated outstanding among- that is, residing in the company of the apostles, that indicates a sense of origin. So, the genitive case would seem to fit there. But if the relationship between they and the apostles is more indirect- outstanding with reference to the opinion of the apostles- then I bet the dative would fit communicating such a connection. Now, I don't have a great deal of experience here. The dative seems to cover a wide number of prepositions. But they many times seem to communicate this more indirect relationship between two words or concepts in a greek sentence. Thanks for listening, Mike. I hope this really helps you. See where it takes you. I also sent your team two emails. The first encourages you and gives my full support to take your time in preparing each part of this series. You mentioned that in one of your posts a couple of weeks ago. Just keep doing what you are doing. I also sent an email for when you investigate 1Cor. 11:2-16. It deals particularly with an insight of mine in vv. 11-12. I hope it helps you. Thanks for taking time for me, Mike. Thank you very much, your close friend in Jesus, David Lavelle.
Thank you so much for going through all of this content so comprehensively!
It's one of the highlights of my week when a new video from this series comes out, I'm so excited for the next one.
Thanks Mike, you are a legend!
Looks like your wonderful wife picked your shirt again?
Phenomenal teaching today! God has given you the gift of wisdom and teaching. Thank you for edifying the Body.
Haha she has good taste 👕 👍
This is an interesting talk! I listen to you while I work.
Another great video!
Mike I wonder if you have considered either turning this into a book or letting someone else edit your videos into a book by you. It would be a helpful resource especially if youtube goes done the tubes or censores everything someday!
Yes ! That would be amazing !! It’s very helpful to be able to look things up in written form I find, especially when an argument is unfolded.
I know it's not the same as what you're wanting, but if you look under the description box of every video, there is a written transcript. I use them often with Mike's teachings. I often listen while doing other tasks and then return to the transcript to mark down Scripture references, notes, names of scholars he quoted, etc...
@@Hope8x28 Thanks for the info :) I’ll check it out !
Thank you pastor! I’m a woman feeling led to spread the word of God and some pastors believe women cannot preach.
Thank you Mike for the series.
I find myself in agreement with you for most points.
One question that keeps popping into my mind is what exactly is the role of the elder/senior pastor/bishop. If this is the single role exclusive to men, what exactly are it's distinctive characteristics? As you have demonstrated it's not leading or teaching, since there are other ways to use those abilities without the role.
I think this can be a helpful question to answer on the series.
Where does it explicitly state in the Bible that the elder is the pastor, or vice-versa, or even that pastor AND teacher should be combined assignment? It doesn't. Combining these categories of roles is man's invention.
Amen, thank you for being so conscientious about following what the Word says. It isn’t always easy to hear but that is the point where we must decide whether we are going to follow man or GOD.
Mike maybe you said this in a previous video or this one and I just missed it, but I'm confused about prophecy and what it actually means? Thank you so much for such an in depth study of this topic!!
Mainline churches and cessationists (Dallas Theoligical Seminary etc.) don't practice this. On Charismatic churches that I've attended, prophecy is of 3 types. One is the office of a prophet. They actually give words to the body or an individual. They must be tested: do their prophecies come to pass and are the biblically sound. Second, there are words of knowledge. They're like mini prophecies with insight. In personal evangelism, you might feel like Gid is telling you something about a person's life or pasr or health. When they are accurate, the person will often weep and be open to the gospel or prayer. Third, there are prophecies that are not predictive....I would they you would all prophesy, as Paul says. These are biblically faithful words of edification, encouragement, and comfort. These are the working definitions I've been taught anyway.
Thanks so much for sorting out all of this information and presenting it so well (it doesn't seem like 2 hours at all). I really appreciate all of the clarification, representation of viewpoints, and follow-up to questions/pushback. It's a subject that wasn't a big deal to me, but others I know care deeply, so I don't want to base my conclusions on a shallow understanding.
Every single time I listen to a teaching I learn something new about how to study Scripture. Thank you for that, Mike. The more I learn the more I have learned how wrong I have been. Even though I was complementarian wanting to be egalitarian, I've learned how flawed some of my beliefs have been about different verses. I have also learned how much I had leaned on what had been taught vs what I learned from the text.
One question that was stirred up in me again about the role of Pastor in the western church. Do you see the role of lead pastor as problematic in that society sees it as a form of priesthood. Do you think the church is set up like it was intended?
I agree with the teaching point. There was a time I was suggested as a candidate to be the children's ministry director. After considering it and praying, the Lord showed me I should stay committed only to teaching. Leading would take away from my teaching ministry. So happy I made this decision.
PLEASE GIVE "THE HEAD COVERING MOVEMENT" A SOLID STUDY FOR WHEN YOU GET TO THE HEAD COVERING PASSAGES!! The founder has a book on the subject of Headcovering for the modern day and I hope dearly that you can reference it!! Also perhaps giving a look at Anabaptist theology since the Amish/Mennonites are pretty much the only denominations that still practice it.
I’ve really been enjoying this series. I’m slowly working through it all. Thank you for your ministry!
On the part about prophesy, I think it's important that people like Pharaoh had prophetic dreams. Pharaoh was given a prophesy from God (ultimately interpreted by Joseph), but I don't think anyone would cite Pharaoh as someone worthy of a religious leadership position
nebuchadnezzar too
I don't think you mean to do so, but your argument seems to equate your sisters in Christ with evil, unsaved men. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Balaam, et al. weren't indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and for them the prophecies were singular instances, not as a gift of the Holy Spirit. A gift of the Holy Spirit wouldn't be just a singular instance, and as Paul said, the gift of prophecy was important to the edification of the church.
@@snopure I don't mean to equate anyone with Pharaoh. You're looking for a reason to be upset.
My point was to rebut the logic. The logic is, "If able to prophesy, then able to teach theology in a leadership position." As you correctly say, those were singular instances of prophecies. But that only proves my point. God can use _anyone_ to prophesy! Prophesying has no correlation with one's ability to teach theology.
Thanks for bringing up prophetic dreams in non believers; now I need to go to my Bible and look through but, as I was thinking about it, don't all of these dreams need interpretation by believers? As in often believers know what their prophetic visions means, it is revealed to them by God but , although God sends prophetic dreams/visions to unbelievers they do not get the revelation of knowledge to understand them. Going now to look. Again, thank you for a question that will turn me back to my Bible!
I've noticed for a while now that I'm not learning new theology from videos anymore. All the material is something I've heard before or remember from bible reading. I've interpreted this as a sign to move beyond theory and focus on putting it into practice. There's still more to learn, God recently gave me several new theological insights in prayer, but I'm not getting it from videos anymore.
What I did wonder about is the apparent contradiction between not learning new theology and yet learning so much from this Women in Ministry series. In this video I realize it's because the bulk of this series is about presenting extrabiblical ideas, and then pointing out why they are wrong. This is extremely valuable, also for the reason you point out that the big debate implies that there's so much material that I might've overlooked. It is a little sad though, that the majority of this subject matter is not actually theology but false teaching. I guess you described the same feeling about researching this. Climbing down so many rabbit holes that turned out to be empty.
Yep, for many people he won’t be able to just tell them what is right, so he has to spend hours defeating what is wrong.
Also, sometimes I struggle getting started on a task, even sharing the Gospel, unless I feel fully prepared. I’m supposed to learn and go share the gospel but I often procrastinate going by telling myself I’m still learning when really I’m being cowardly,
But having said that and touching on something else you mentioned. I don’t think we will ever be done learning or reinforcing our learning. Which is another reason we have to go and share the gospel because we will never finish learning.
Notice Anna in Luke chapter 2, she was a Prophetess, and spoke to all about Jesus.
And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; and she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
Luke 2:36-38
He spoke about her at length in this video.
I really, really understand you saying, if a person disagrees with you then they need to give details, show how they understand what you are saying, and present their biblical position opposing your positionz with Scripture.
It has amazed me how many people, saints even, will reply to my post(s) with "WRONG" then run and hide.
They get totally ignored.
God Bless
You need to know 2 things.
#1) Understand Deborah well (I have a short free postable essay.)
#2) Understand and know, that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher.
(That is another free essay.)
Commentary with scripture, with limited opinions.
A number of times I've been given a prophecy for a congregation that I'm visiting for the first time. Each time I have written it down, gone up to the side of the front or sent the friend who invited me, to submit it to the pastor to consider, as led by the Holy Spirit. Looking back upon these events, I'm struck by how safe I felt in operating in my gifts, under the protective covering of the authority structure, which is designed to protect the flock and the person given the prophesy. Haha, also the pastors were able to read it, giving me anonymity, sparing me all the responsibility that public speaking can entail. If some folks in a new congregation come to know you have a type of gift...word of wisdom, knowledge and/ or prophesy...well, too often than not, they flock to you for a "word from God".
This is not how the Holy Spirit works...it's akin to treating The Almighty God, like your butler, where you pull the cord and He arrives at your command. It is at this juncture the gifted and the one asking for a sign or a personal word, supernaturally, that both parties often unwittingly stumble into the snare of divination, the counterfeit. It is important for the one being asked to teach those asking the difference. By
pointing them immediately to the The Living Word, reading their Bible and making daily personal quiet time/prayer with Jesus, you are able to encourage them about the very real benefits of having a surrendered commitment to following Jesus. "My sheep will hear my voice and they will follow Me." Teaching them to "fish" instead of trying to pull one out of your metaphorical magic hat. Huge problem in the body of Christ today with the forbidden areas of divination, the territory of the occult, passing for unadulterated spiritual gifting. Sadly rampant.
💙 What heard you teach here, we discussed tonite. I’m trying to watch these videos everywhere I go. Today on my iPad on my dashboard listening to you as I go to pick up people. Thank you so much I’m learning so much! Be Blessed.
i believe paul teaches us to test all things and be sure it lines up with scripture. I am surprised at the thought of not checking things out just bc the man is an elder...there are many many messed up elders and leaders in the churches. It is sad..but true..it is hard to find a church with a great and consistently biblical teaching ..
Of course we check things. Much of my ministry is doing that. I’m speaking about the fact that there is no official procedure for teaching like there is for prophecy.
@@MikeWinger
Just a note: Jesus was not being taken to the temple to be circumcised. Circumcision was performed on the 8th day, probably in the home. The trip to the temple was for the offering of the sacrifice for Mary's purification, on the 40th day for a male child (80th day for a female child).
See Luke 2:22; Leviticus 12:2-8.
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I have several thoughts about your comment, and I am not sure if any of them will apply but here they are. One of the points that is made by Mike is that the church should test the character of an elder before appointing that man as an elder. So, the "testing" comes before the appointing. Now it is human nature to hide our sin and there will be some who become elders who have hidden sins that would otherwise prevent that. Find a church that has pastoral leadership that you can trust. I think it is harmful for us to become part of a church and be so cynical that we cannot give any trust to church leadership. Finally, there are many elders/pastors that I have known over the years that I think have met the requirements, they are of good character, and they are knowledgeable teachers, yet there is no one bible teacher that I ever have agreed with 100% on every point. I am satisfied that they are knowledgeable and sincere in their teaching and that they are accurate on all the essential doctrines and rely on the Bible as their authority. Testing is fine (I am thinking of the Bereans who tested Paul's teaching against scripture), but don't listen with an intent to just find their mistakes.
Thank you for your study on Egalitarian / Complementarian this helped me understand what the Bible says about it and now I believe I am a Complementarian and can show from the Bible why. To God be the Glory 🙌
You still have to explain how a woman could be made a Judge.
One might include Jesus speaking to the woman at the well as a teaching moment for her, and that she then went on to share with others as a testimony to her newfound faith. That doesn't make her a Rabbi or a teacher herself, but others can learn from her experience.
So let me get this straight...women have been shown repeatedly to be capable of fulfilling a "pastoral role" within scripture, but people still hold onto the idea that they should not be pastors/elders? What does the label have to do with anything, practically speaking? How many pastor moments are women allowed to have per day before it goes against Paul?
@@uhitsethan zero. Why do you think Jesus never ever appointed a woman or women to be apostles?
The criteria for a pastor is this.
A HUSBAND of one wife, with his house in order. Obedient children. He is to be beyond reproach. No scandal. Calm, gentle, compassionate and have self control.
There is an authority scale so to speak in the house of God and in the home.
First of all, the woman sinned first and because Eve caused Adam to sin, she was put under him in authority but equals at the foot of the cross only. There is nothing wrong at all for a woman to teach children (male and female) but she is not to stand before men and preach with authority in any way shape or form.
People say, what if she feels called to do it.
If she feels called to preach, it is of her own volition because Christ would be contradicting himself if he told a woman to stay preaching.
The third and most important reason women are not allowed to ask questions openly in church is because it will bring Shame upon her husband, her causing him to look as if he is not teaching her.
And 4th, simply because THE BIBLE SAYS SO. That's it and that's all.
If a woman can't trust what the Bible says, saying that NO WOMAN IS TO PREACH WITH AUTHORITY, then she is willfully and purposefully being disobedient.
All women preachers are false teachers.
ALL OF THEM... if they are preaching, they are doing it of their own will and are not called by God
@@uhitsethan I don't understand why you say that how many pastoral moments does a woman have to have before she goes against God. 1st of all come at 0 because she's not allowed to in any way shape or form a preach on the street in a house or in a church or anywhere else for that matter with authority.
Secondly, why do you say how many pastoral moments does she have to have before she goes against Paul? Why do you say Paul? The Bible was not written by man except for except for the fact that he was the Pen.
Jesus is the author that's holding The pen and Paul Matthew James Titus Jude Moses David Solomon et cetera were the pen held by God as He wrote down the scripture.
Nothing in the Bible is of men. The Bible chalky states that the vibe was GIVEN THROUGH INSPIRATION OF GOD for doctrine, reprove and teaching, instruction and correction.
The words in the Bible about women are not of Paul, but OF GOD HIMSELF.
@@bigcountrymountainman9740 well I'd encourage you to watch the video. I'm sure the reasoning for my position is in there somewhere. But I have two questions about your responses.
1. You say that all women preachers are false preachers. To what extent? Does this mean they are actively and consistently preaching falsehoods?
2. If a woman feels called to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, you say this is not actually from Christ. If not Christ, then why do women all around the world think they are called to preach? Are they called by Satan?
And to quickly address your question about why I said Paul, I meant Paul's writing. I'm not making a statement here against biblical inerrancy. I am just repeating what Paul said in 1 tim 2:8 where he says all of this is what he wants.
@@bigcountrymountainman9740 Whew!! I pity any woman that comes in contact with you! Are you on anabolic steroids?
Dear Mike, and Alison, We LOVE you very much! Please have a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS to you both! ~ Vancouver BC, :D
"somebody add that to the dictionary for me. Oh wait... They only do that for certain people" 🤣
Very good video, thanks Pastor Mike!
Can someone explain this to me?
@@lyterman Just a joke from the video.
@@sarahfaith316 Right, what does the joke mean though?
@@lyterman Webster's dictionary was literally changing definitions in the online dictionary when the definition didn't line up with what some Democrat was saying. This has happened a few times recently but I especially remember it being talked about last summer.
@@jrconway3 Oh, something having to do with racism and power? I think I've heard that before.
I thank you and your support team for this ministry. Praying for you!
Hey Mike,
I think you are doing an excellent job with your teaching. I’m learning a lot and I like that you even say to your listeners that they are still under the authority of the local pastor and not yourself. That may even be something that needs to be repeated.
So far, since I haven’t heard your final application, the only pushback I have is when you were discussing the passage in support of women being deacons. It was 1 Timothy 3:11 I believe. At first I flat out rejected your argument, then I decided to actually consider if it had merit. I can definitely see how you could come to your conclusion, but it just doesn’t make sense to me that it would switch from instructions for men, then to women, and then back to men.
Again, I can’t point to any specific passage to strike down your argument, and maybe it’s my strong complementarian background, but this is the one passage you’ve discussed that I still strongly disagree with your view.
Thanks Mike, totally enjoyed this teaching and was enlightened on my matters.
Hi Mike really appreciate your thoroughness and time you've put into this series. And, the effort you've put into being balanced and fair with your review of the the different arguments.
I looked up 1 Timothy 2:12 in an interlinear. A scripture you mentioned. At the risk of pre-empting a future video, I found this. The word for "teach" is defined by Strongs as "I teach, direct, admonish." Thayers lexicon includes "to discharge the office of teacher, conduct oneself as a teacher" as a part of it's discourse. From this the idea of teacher looks to be an authoritative role.
Paul would then be making a point about authority (office) over a man rather than the ability to teach.
Another thought I had was about our motives. Churches I have experienced seem to make too much of leaders and leadership. How important is leadership (authority over) at the end of the day. Is it another form of promoting self or not. Motives.
That word I gather has the connections of discipleship!
Thank you this last section was so helpful for me! I'm so glad for your guidance concerning this topic and God's Word in general :)
God's Grace be with you
@Paster Mike, I would love to see you deep dive why we call the Holy Spirit a "he" when according Origen (c. 185-254) wrote that the Holy Spirit was a "she", in fact, calls the Holy Spirit Mother. The Aramaic word "rucha", the ancient Hebrew word "ruach" which means spirit and ancient Hebrew word for the presence of God "Shekinah" are all feminine. I think we loose sight of the fullness of the Divine by not acknowledging that God's 3 aspects includes a male and a female spirit. Sure the ancient Greek word for spirit is gender neutral, but that doesn't change what the Jews of the time of Jesus believed and taught...it is just a shortcoming of ancient Greek.
I attended a Messianic Christian church a few times and they refer to the Holy Spirit as "she"...which led me down the road of why they were doing that since I had been taught it was "he". I hope you at least give this some thought. God bless you and your ministry...I have learned so much and continue to.
Mike, hi, appreciate your heart and thorough work. Just one item I'd like to submit, that being the point you made in another video regarding that women cannot judge prophecy. I think there are two difficulties with this. One 1 Cor. 14 states, "Let the prophets speak two or...three, and let the others judge." It's says "let 'the others' judge," not "let the men judge." Furthermore, what of the situation where there is a gathering of non-cessationist women, say a women's service/conference etc., and someone prophesies, your view would make it impossible for anyone to judge it
Can you talk about what you believe woman can do in ministry? For example, can women be youth directors, worship leaders, college ministry leaders, etc?
He stated, in this video, there would be a future video concerning application.
I have learnt so much and finally I can sense some peace in my heart with that matter! I really thank You, Brother Mike, for that wonderful teaching series 🌹❤️🌹❤️🌹
Argument 2:
The former demoniac wasn't being trained to be a rabbi over the course of an afternoon, he was being trained to be an evangelist. He was sent back to his town to teach people about the power of thekingdom of God. This is still ministry training and does not disqualify this argument for women in ministry.
It doesn't disqualify woman in ministry, it takes away the argument that woman can be elders/rabbis.
@@brysonevans7367 No, it reinforces it because sitting at the feet is still referencing ministry training.
@@thealexmarriott Woman are apart of ministry, Mike agrees that woman can teach, prophecy, and do many things in the ministry. But they cannot be elders, to sit at the feet of someone(learning in general) does not mean you can have the highest level of authority in a church. The two aren't related.
@Jon Dewey See the problem is you're viewing the issue based on denominations and their views instead of the word of God(the scriptures). Mike Winger isn't making his arguments and rebuttals based on what the denominations/traditions are, but what the scripture says. Also most denominations, especially the Catholic church, have women as not being a high authority.
Christians shouldn't get their knowledge from what different traditions dictate, but by studying the word of God.
No matter what you think of the issue, you can't say Mike Winger(and I don't think you did) isn't getting his viewpoint from scripture.
@@thealexmarriottI don't think sitting at Jesus ' feet " implies" ministry training. It demonstrates love, devotion, humility, teachability, and a willingness to choose the most important thing, ie time with the Lord, over the distractions and duties Martha was more concerned about.
Hey Mike! Thank you so much for these videos. I listen to these and a lot of other apologetics/theology things (Ruslan, Allen Parr, Voddie Baucham, etc.) During my 12 hr shifts at work. It makes the day go by much faster. And thank you for really studying and seeking scripture for answers to complicated questions like this.
Thank you Mike, I now have a new term: "extra priesty"
I have really been enjoying this series, even though I am more egalitarian than complementarian.
Hey Mike! Are you aware that there is a 16 second long, troll video on your women in ministry playlist? Just thought you’d appreciate the heads up
Hi Mike! Thank you for your really comprehensive and well thought Bible teaching! I found your channel lately and have listened through Jesus in OT and epistle of Peter series etc and this really blesses me and has changed me and I have learned so much even I have been a believer in Jesus all of my life. In my country in those congregations I have been during my life there has always been elders that are men and the leading pastor is just one of them, we have also woman pastors but not usually as the leading one. I think it's found really important that "elders" is a group sharing the responsibility and overseeing each other. I don't recognize these identifications here, "complementarian"/"egalitarian" but there is ongoing discussion about the very topic as well, maybe just less polarized. I have this understanding that we go wrong when we see beeing "the head" through flesh. If we think husband should be just ruling over his wife as a dictator or that (man)elders in congregation have a position of an emperor and "women can't correct a man" or can't have anything to teach to men, we are giving up to worldly desires and our flesh. It's pride and desire for power. We ought to see how the first head Jesus is the head. He bears the heaviest responsibility, he wants to see his body to flourish. He gave an example of being the servant of others and washing the disciples feet when they were pondering who is the greatest of them. The Bible instructs to have such men as elders who have this attitude of carrying the greatest burden and responsibility and serving the whole body rather than ruling over others and being above any teaching (especially any coming from women). As a woman one could see this as such a gentle care from the Lord and leaving her full space to do what He calls her to do. If we start to mess up with flesh it just goes so weird.
Just a note: Jesus was not being brought to the temple to be circumcised. Circumcision was performed on the 8th day, probably in the home. The trip to the temple was for the offering at the time of His mother's purification, 40 days after the birth of a male child (80 days for a female child).
See Luke 2:22; Leviticus 12:2-8.
Correct
Pastor Mike, I was wondering if you could share a little glimpse of how you learn all the stuff you do about the Bible? Your insights are profound, well thought through. and wise. Even your specific fleeting thoughts. For example, Paul vs Saul and how it might be reference of the Greek. Such a minute detail is thought about in a meta-narrative light. I know you have built your whole ministry on the idea of thinking biblically about everything, but it interests me to think about how you don’t have a Mike winger resource for yourself, like I do. Can you share a little bit of what the research/ mentorship/ thinking biblically process works for you? Do you have a general outline you follow? Thanks in advance for your time and energy. You are truly, a blessing of a resource from God to me, and thousands others in our walks.
Waiting for a kind commenter to create chapters and time codes 🙂
Sarah Zimmermann is Pastor Mike’s assistant and she will have the time stamps and chapters up for us and they will be available at the top! 🙂
@Hashim Warren They're all set now! Thank you for your patience!
@@sarahfaith316 thank you! 🔥🔥🔥
@@HashimWarren My pleasure!
Distortion of biblical texts taken out of context seems to often follow those with too firm of a stance and an unwillingness to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. I always appreciate how much work you obviously do on any of the topics you cover, presenting both sides of the argument thoroughly. Thank you.
Testimony: In the USA, years ago, I was involved in an independent charismatic fellowship that was very strong in teaching the word, both internally and with outside teachers. Based upon the "one flesh" principle, every married woman was able to participate in church activities together (under the covering/authority) of her husband. Thus, only men were elders (rulers) BUT, they operated in unity & unison with their wives. Unmarried-divorced or widowed (mature believing women) could also minister (teach the congregation) under cover/authority of the eldership. Church government was based upon the foundational ministries: apostle & prophets & include pastors, teachers & evangelists... All men.
It is when a believer is "in the Spirit" that there is no male or female. Thus a wife submits to her husband even as the husband submits to the Christ within her.
Modern churches are usually governed by a single (head) pastor... this is NOT biblical. Pastors are primarily shepherds.
This was very practical and worked well.
There are many problems at the extremes (ordinating women or forbidding women).
Doctrine is important but its application is where "the rubber meets the road."
Interesting
My testimony of changed views on women in ministry.
I quit the responsibility of a counselor in my church because of a crisis. They told me I had to find someone to replace me. Against all my previous convictions I suggested a women who I see as spiritually strong, intelligent and able to handle this crises. She was excepted and she did an excellent job to solve the crisis.
Right now in my opinion she is the most spiritual person in the team, the only one who actually serves the church instead of those other men and women who just want to give orders but do nothing.
Only later on I realized I was only focused on the crises itself, and I didn't even think if it would be biblical to suggest a women.
I usually never wanted to have women in roles of spiritual leadership but in these days that debate was completely out of my mind.
I just felt this was how God wanted to lead our church,
and I'm really confident to say that God guided both this women and me (and many other involved) to help our church overcome some great struggles.
Maybe God is adapting his solutions to our ways of organizing our churches,
or maybe he sometimes sends a Deborah when the men are too weak.
No he doesn’t adjust around us.
Thank you for making these videos in this series -theyvare very informative.
Being a man is not the only requirement for pastoral ministry. An elder/pastor must also be temperate, not easily angered, hospitible, and have a good reputation with outsiders (unbelievers), etc. Yet, I know pastors/elders who are not hospitable - who are easily angered - etc. If I were to pritoritise these qualifications - I would perhaps put gender lower down the list. I personally believe that we must distinguish between the IDEAL and the REAL - and unfortunatley the world in which we live is not ideal. I believe that God can and will call women into leadership roles when men are either unable or unwilling to respond to God's call..... (e.g. Deborah). In recent centuries, many women have been used by God to plant and establish Christ's church, as missionaries, in foreign lands. Women have often gone where men have been either unable or unwilling to go. I do not believe that this is the ideal - but nevertheless, God used them.
You cannot put rules in order, and say one is more important than others. All rules must be followed. Just because a rule is abused or ignored, doesn't license you or anyone else to ignore a different rule. In such cases both parties are in sin and error. It doesn't matter which rule is ignored. We must walk in God's ways. Jesus said:
Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity!
Prophetesses, missionaries, church planters etc were never in question. This question is specifically about *elders* as a fix role of authority in a local church. Women can do anything outside that role according to the Bible.
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There would not be a Calvary Chapel if it were not for Pastor Chuck getting saved and ordained in a denomination founded and led by a woman.
@@padillas4357 God strikes straight blows with crooked sticks.
min 9 on Kenneth Bailey. I used to live in Cyprus and Dr Bailey would come every year to take time off to a retreat area (Pafos) and he would present topics of common interest to a small group. I was blessed to be part of his group of hearers and indeed NT Wright is correct in how he represents Dr Bailey's position on women because I heard it myself. Unfortunately, in those days no one recorded his presentations, he would always give us one sheet with the verses and the structure of the passages but the rest was from memory.