your guys release time being right at patch time is so fuckin based both strategically for viewership and for being ready exactly when i would want to start listening in the morning. W Squishei
I mean the tournament ending like that is objectively blizzard’s fault for not fixing their fucking Z axis issues that have been in the game since probably classic
You be smoking some za if you think bliz is going to fix the z axis issue. Z axis has been an issue for 20 years. They ain't gonna fix anything for plunder. 💀💀💀
Issue with Gingi winning like that is that he is always the first to complain when someone else does it. He is so painfully arrogant, he was the last person I wanted to see walk away with any prize money.
The plunderstorm shenanigans were just anticlimactic and annoying. Its just like in professional sports when a team gets a win on a technicality. Xar and Pika took it well, though.
For me the funniest thing about this Plunderstorm Drama was the fact that in RWF Gingi was the first guy to talk shit about Liquid for using spellslinger exploit
And Max made the snarky "classic Echo win" remark at the end, despite them going on the tower first. Both sides feather their own nest all the time. Both sides look hilarious when doing it.
11.0.5 didn't kill the vibe for me, it completely failed to revive the vibe. For context I'm one of the people that in dragonflight was doing 23s-26s for fun. I wasn't going for title, it wasn't for gear or rewards, it was for fun. This season I was basically raid logging and ready for season 2 by the first week of October. The vibe was dead before 11.0.5 launched.
I gotta disagree with growl 9:30-10:30 about competitive integrity and a 'for fun' tournament. Any discussion about 'for fun' tournament goes out the window the second there is a cash prize, let alone $25 000, that is no longer 'for fun' that is a wage for a lot of people
In my opinion TWW S1 is the worst season I have ever played in as a tank outside of SL S1 and even than it was damn close. I have none of the fantasy that comes from being a tank as I feel even squishier than when I play as something like a ret pally. Dungeons more difficult sucks but I wouldn't have complained except now to get mythic ilvl gear I have to run a +10 and that sucks more. Peril kind of sucks but its whatever. What sucks more is that one mess up as a tank means not 15 seconds off the key but the lost time on the boss the run back and 5 x 15 seconds. It feels way to punishing to die as a tank. The stop change is just retarded. It causes so many issues in pugs with wasted interrupts particularly if there are rotational stops being used at bad times.
absolutely agree, and depending on a healer just feels sooo bad. Also i do not get why tanks are not allowed to blast, if tanks do actually challenge lazy dps there´s just more tanks being played. If you play 100% perfect and your reward is somehow barely living maybe if the healer did at least try to help out and slightly above mediocre dmg it´s just not enough to make anyone play tank.
I mean playing healer is garbage too you are expected to carry the tank and whole group, while expecting peanut brain dps to know how to press defensives as a lot of healing checks are balanced around people pressing stuff. And your reward is getting out with headache as every boss pulse for 60% of everyone's hp per tick and everyone is 1 gcd away from dying everywhere requiring spreadsheet to cover anything. So all of that is just product for disaster.
“I don’t know, I just wanted my character to die and be done with this hardcore thing.” Also growl: “PEOPLE ARE JUST GOING TO SACRIFICE THEIR CHARACTER? THAT’S COPE!” 😂😂😂 I’m fukin dying
@@StridersEgressThe timing proximity of these two statements is just funny to me. He crashed out about no one being willing to and then not long after, he admits that he is one of them. It’s like if my response to you was “Show me where the fallacy is, there’s no fallacy that’s just cope.” Except I actually agree with Growl and I’m not trying to be a hater, I just thought it was funny. My bad lmao
1:52:48 the other issue is when there are just multiple in a single pack. A big offender I found on PTR is the patrol before the PvP boss that has two archers in them. They randomly shoot people and switch targets constantly with no indicator so if you get shot by both without being full health or running a defensive you just simply get globaled due to being unlucky. Then you pull it again and they never shoot the same person and evenly spread the damage and the pack is relatively "free". I feel like more packs need to learn from Stonevault of all places. There are multiple packs at the end with double caster and they ONLY ever target the tank so you will never have to worry about a DPS just randomly exploding to a single missed kick that happens around the same time as Rock Smash.
@@avinion i mean... kind of? not really, lol. They still kept it, just moved it to 12s. Don't get me wrong that's better than them just leaving it as it was, but they still clearly think they are right about it being a good affix.
Hot take, slightly off-topic: What are people's thoughts on a consumable bag that allows for a one-button press to use food, elixirs, weapons, and stones for single-use consumables in M+ and raids? This bag could have settings to re-up consumables based on a user-defined timer threshold or when items are missing. It seems like a QoL we might not have realized we'd needed.
I know yall don’t understand the prot warrior thing but for me it is greatly appreciated. I honestly wish there was a talent to remove ignore pain all together and get an extra shield block charge or some passive dr because ignore pain is the worst button prot has. You can’t even macro it like iron fur without being rage starved.
i dont play plunderstorm but if you're out of the ring you should take unsustainable ticking dmg no? the ring closes PAST gingi and he's full sitting in the storm and not taking the ticking damage...like whats the confusion here? hes exploiting and was rewarded a lot of money for exploiting. granted its plunderstorm and i dont think any actual consequences should be put on his account but when your tournament on the line how are you, as a company, going to say that its okay for him to stand full in the storm, not taking damage and should win the money? fuckin wild takes from the bench crew ngl. blizzard 100% should have not announced them the winner because they actively exploited in a sanctioned tournament. that said its not surprising because blizzard has 0 backbone and refuse to ban exploiters.
It’s still small compared to other battle royale type tournaments. And if the prize pool is bigger people start not doing fun stuff anymore and just playing turbo defensive the whole time. That’s just not fun to watch.
It's crazy to me they added the tank frontal to the lich in ToP. Like they didn't bring a similar mechanic from release Manifested Timeways into the M+ version because SURELY they realized organizing the entire group permanently spinning around a boss with a frontal is a bad idea and bound to have someone mess up at some point in the 3 minute fight.
that's a dumb take. they clearly exploited, a bug they knew about and i don't care who else was doing that or was up there, they shouldn't be able to win with exploit. period. and growl saying "its plunderstorm, who cares" the winner takes 25k USDs home. so we as community members should be able to say: "that's not cool, those who played fair and beat others like the damn game intended, should win the money" it's not that hard. and people are allowed to be upset about it.
a few episodes ago tettles sat there complaining about exploits for 30 minutes and how its ruining everything, then turns around is chill with the gingi exploit, like wtf
@@MrRyan94 Maul is purely offensive being the difference. Maul is fine on the gcd and has a choice, but should probably be buffed to feel more rewarding to press
So on the roof plunder Drama heres what i know of what happened. If you watch Ziqo pov running into the final circle he talks about going up to a cool spot (and has a clip on his channel talking about someone else doing it last time plunder was live) and gets interrupted by pika/xaryu. Max and Trill then drop a grav pad to go up there in the final circle (intentionally), Max gets there first and is knocked off by Pikaboos Ring of Peace Bird (anyone else think its ironic Pika blocks two teams going there?) and Trill lands afterwards and is safe for a moment. Gingi and Meeres were planning on doing a Boat strat and sitting outside the circle for a bit, but random damage broke Meeres boat. They spotted the jump pad and Gingi spotted Trill and followed, Meeres went elsewhere. Gingi then won the battle for the roof and ultimately the game.
Plunderstorm is Blizz's fault, they overlooked a spot. Would be the same if they missed a spot down on the ground and it didn't get hit by the storm, helping someone win. Not to mention how their enforcement policy is so vague and inconsistent that they now can't hand out serious punishments unless it's for extreme game-breaking abuse. In highly competitive environments, you have to push the limits and hope Blizz's interpretation of the rules is the same as yours.
I think what absterge said also was targeted to the PVE competitive players, Every patch is the same with them looking for bugs/exploits to get a competitive advantage (renown, fireup focus target drama, snaps, MCs, etc), both players on that roof were RWF raiders, and almost every time they just get a warning for cheating early and that's it, It's very normalized and I agree with what he said, we should normalize the opposite and DQ/Ban that behaibour.
I think challengers peril actually does have a place and, if implemented properly, is what mythic plus needs. No matter what blizzard does, people complain that timers are too tight or that everything is a one shot. It’s always one or the other. If you get rid of one shots, you’ll only be gated by the timer and vice versa. They can’t win. This affix allows them to give lenient timers to people in low keys and makes it so that we don’t have dragonflight respawn and die simulator in big keys. It’s not perfect, but it helps reduce the tension between being limited by timers and being limited by one shots
It's just entertainment... Every tournament format has pros and cons and makes trade-offs. This type of tournament makes trade offs of competitive integrity for entertainment elements.
Well you shouldnt agree because he also says its a "for fun toruney" which in what world would standing on that tower be any sort of fun...? Also there was a prize pool so while it is sort of for fun, its also not.
Sure, exploits are fine, meanwhile in previous episodes they are whining like a cry baby when people exploit in m+ with no real money involved. Great double standards.
How is Stergey wrong? Multiple teams where actively trying to exploit (bypass a game mechanic that is not intended to be bypassed) and the team that won clearly abused an exploit to do it. I feel like most creators in the tournament are trying to save face at this point and make sure they keep a spot for the next Plunderstorm tournament (But god I hope they fucking shelf this shit).
The APM chart gave me ptsd. Back in WoD, Warrior’s Gladiator spec was the spec with the highest APM in the game, by a decent margin. When they decided to delete the spec (and the Heroic Strike ability for warriors at the same time) they blamed it on its APM. This was my favourite spec in the game at the time, partly because I’ve always enjoyed high APM specs and dread non gcd capped specs, and I hate that to this day they’re still using APM as an important metric for prot warriors.
About Plunderstorm: I think the tournament format is fine. Its entertaining, we all knew it was like this from the start. The way the tournament ended with the cheese is a bit dissapointing. Not blaming Gingi at all, he just does what he can to win. Just saying its a dissapointing ending to a very fun tournament and Blizz should make sure that kind of cheese is not possible next time.
WS could probably just use some visual clarity. Platinum Pummler should 100% get some sort of visual indicator when he gets a stack since it feels like the only way to tell is to just stare at his buff bar. Machinist's Garden not having better visuals when everything else did is honestly just insane to me. The sawblades are still obnoxious to track and still do ridiculous damage if you get clipped by one considering there are like a dozen of them flying around at any given time.
As someone who has mained outlaw for 6+ seasons now, and love it, I wouldn't mind bringing the pace down a bit. Long term, heavy-use of outlaw is just hard on your hands.
I agree with some of Growl's points but I am focused on other aspects of the recent dramas. Plunderstorm is in the checkmate format so there can be an exciting finish - what we got was Echo/Gingi yet AGAIN abusing the game to win a competition. There was nothing exciting about that ending, Mes should have won. On the classic HC arena stuff, it's not the fact that people were defending Yamato - it's the layer swapping, hiding streams, not inviting to the correct layer once one had been established, and generally going against the spirit of the punishment to protect the guy that ninja looted and called out classic players as shit. He got his shit pushed in during the duels. The arena is not a duel, lag should not have been a factor, it was meant to be a public execution let's be real.
I could see the reason why the timers in the returning dungeons feel way easier is because of how much more „free“ cleave most specs have gotten (that was at least a big talking point in this raid) so specs do way more AoE while keeping most of their single target compared to the seasons when these dungeons where first around 🤷♂️
Ngl, the second I saw GRowl in that arena I was disappointed lol. Yamato is just a huge rat and toxic AF, and that dude did not deserve the support he got lol. Little bro was basically crying to tyler ever little thing that happened to him since HC started. Also the plunderstorm ending was PURE CINEMA.
I don't think I've ever disagreed nearly as much the theater of pain lich is not okay if u have two melee the spread circles basically can't happen and keep uptime, the orb rotates way too fast so u have to constantly keep going and if ur tank happens to walk a smidge too far from boss she's smacking someone else, the adds hp is crazy high and our tank was dropping an ass like literally only a playable boss as ranged
The play in workshop is going to be skip the last pack, do the boss, then go back and pure ST focus down the lowest HP mob and hope you kill it before you die.
The first boss of ToP just needs to move the damage out of the spread dot and into something else. It's basically last boss of Arakara...except it does more damage....and you can't dispel it. Like how am I supposed to bring, heaven forbid, 2 melee to that fight as MW and be expected to be able to heal the DoT that does 60%+ of your health a tick?
Growl is wrong though, Tyler’s group hopping layers to avoid lag made sense completely, but by default it results in everybody who wanted to participate needing to go later by layer just to even see what was happening, and reform groups to try and hop in, and with the layering ICD and the 7min time frame given, made it nearly impossible to form a group. That’s why people are mad, because even if they didn’t intend to purposefully keep him alive via layering, that’s what inevitably happened.
Prot warrior main: the response from Kaivax felt incredibly tone deaf, and it's very frustrating. I love the class fantasy of the lots of shield slams. I love the higher APM. I came back to TWW after a two expansion break and fell in love with how Thane ProtWar feels and that's changing and it doesn't feel great. As I look at other high APM specs without changes I just can't help but feel like what Growl says is true, there's just a guy or two on each spec... and the prot warrior one doesn't seem to play it.
My spicy take is that since Blizzard started making raids melee friendly the quality of the raid bosses has been declining. This is because in my opinion to make a variety of mechanically interesting bosses you inevitably run into issues with making bosses melee friendly.
Melee need to run out and soak on Ulgrax and run off ads when the boss comes back up, run out to place shades on Sikran and run out during the AoE, run out of melee to place webs far away and be careful running back in to not hit non-webbed people, constantly get bombarded with swirlies that get covered up by eggs and the boss itself and other adds on Broodtwister, plus potentially lose uptime when you have to pop eggs that are far away on boss and run away from boss to kick the acid burst casting add, and on Queen Ansurek, lose uptime on Venom Nova pops and have to run away from boss during Wrest to not get eaten and keep back-pedalling while keeping an eye on balls coming out from just in front of them from the boss and keep strafing away from expanding acid pools and run out of space at the end of intermission and only be able to hit ads away from the edge of intermission platforms to not get pulled off and lose uptime to do Shadowgate portals oh and lose uptime to web blades while ranged can literally just sidestep them. The only fight that is harder for ranged is Nexus-Princess, and Silken Court is...about the same. 1 out of 8 fights is "meLeE FriEnDlY". Your take is not a "spicy take". It's an idiotic take. Wtf are you waffling about, Jackel15935736478468847?
@@Frawt Maybe you haven't played both range and melee on mythic this teir but you not taking into account that any fight with high movement is very similar to melee running out of melee distance of boss for range besides BM hunter. Ulgrax is a little better for range but not by much Bloodbound horror way easier for melee Sikran is easier for melee unless range never gets targeted with the mechanic Rasha'nan is kinda even depending on class Broodtwister is way easier for range Nexus-Princess is easier for mele in intermission and about the same for normal phases Silken Court is about even depend on class some classes have it way easier then others Queen phase 1 and 3 is so much easier for mele and phase 2 is easier for range but that phase doesn't matter as much So if you want to keep score its 2 hard and 1 easy fight that's better for melee and 1 hard and 1 easy fight that's better for range. 3 fights are about even. This teir has been pretty even for balance the big thing people will notice is the last two finals bosses it has been better to have more melee than range because of the high movement.
they target specifically Prot Warrior because tanking in M+ is already hard enough, why would they bother targetting dps? Sure, Prot Pally has higher APM, but Prot Pally is bringing off heal and insane utility for the group while Prot Warrior is using this APM JUST TO SURVIVE (and do damage obviously, but thats what all do).
Gingi went to known location even from first tournament, he also went there because he saw Trill up there and took his spot.. If Trill won like that Cdew wouldn't cry on Twitter..
The group i ran with on ptr +2'd ToP 10 with a full wipe and like 15 deaths, timer might be extra. But it was also incredibly refreshing not just losing the timer to a wipe.
I completely disagree with Growls take on not blaming Blizzard. Gingi was fine to take advantage of Blizzards shit design. Blizzard were also right to not restart the march or punish anyone for playing the game in a manner which Blizzard allowed. That said, the fact that Blizzard did not anticipate any Z axis issues in their game that has had CONSTANT Z axis issues in all forms of content is poor and they should be rightfully criticized for this. If you cannot design mechanics that dont do weird shit on stairs, pillars, towers, ramps then stop putting those mechanics or terrains in the game. It is inexcusable in 2025 after over 10 years of Z axis issues that we're having these issues in the game and ESPECIALLY in broadcasted tournaments with massive audiences
I'm glad I leveled and geared a BM hunter out of no where the other day. I'm done with the little melee freak circus flagellation thing they have going on, I can't anymore. I'll play melee again when they figure out the concept of compensation.
It's hilarious to hear Growl say that "you can't just go into TGP without practice like you can in CS" when current CS teams' anti-stratting each other and how important that is goes waaay beyond anything in TGP. But of course it's always easy to diminish the merit of something you know absolutely nothing about...but like...not a good thing to bring up as a (counter-)example then.
I could be wrong, but i don't think Gingi standing up on the pillar dodging the swirls was the big issue. If you were to look at Gingis POV in his VOD at 9:17:30 you see the circle / storm closing in and Gingi is on the outside of it not taking damage. Later the circle moves towards Gingi playing into his favor. Love the podcast
Plunderstorm - make the safe area shrink spherically, instead of cylindrical so that if you are at the top of a high enough tower to not be in range of regular abilities you will end up outside the safe area as the sphere shrinks. Sure you might not have to dodge all the lightning on the ground but you will still be in range of the enemy attacks.
I like how this pod came out and a few hours later a whole bunch of M+ changes were announced. God Bless.
Growl having a melt down made my day
he gets one guy'd so easy its hilarious. Its almost like people will say wild shit on purpose to get him riled up.
@@L337KaN getting one guy'd requires it being just one guy...
what made me laugh was "its someone i respect" hate to say it maybe you should consider if there is truth to it?
poor Growl in full AAAAAAAA!!!! -mode.
your guys release time being right at patch time is so fuckin based both strategically for viewership and for being ready exactly when i would want to start listening in the morning. W Squishei
I mean the tournament ending like that is objectively blizzard’s fault for not fixing their fucking Z axis issues that have been in the game since probably classic
You be smoking some za if you think bliz is going to fix the z axis issue. Z axis has been an issue for 20 years. They ain't gonna fix anything for plunder. 💀💀💀
Of course I expect Echo to use an exploit to cash in on a for fun event. Plagueborers 2.0
Issue with Gingi winning like that is that he is always the first to complain when someone else does it. He is so painfully arrogant, he was the last person I wanted to see walk away with any prize money.
Yeah. If Cruella or Grubby won that way we wouldn’t care. Just that Gingi is known for using exploits for cash
The plunderstorm shenanigans were just anticlimactic and annoying. Its just like in professional sports when a team gets a win on a technicality. Xar and Pika took it well, though.
For me the funniest thing about this Plunderstorm Drama was the fact that in RWF Gingi was the first guy to talk shit about Liquid for using spellslinger exploit
after beeing suspended for 4 days because of an exploit
And Max made the snarky "classic Echo win" remark at the end, despite them going on the tower first. Both sides feather their own nest all the time. Both sides look hilarious when doing it.
What's even more funny is their team got zero kills and won the last game.
11.0.5 didn't kill the vibe for me, it completely failed to revive the vibe. For context I'm one of the people that in dragonflight was doing 23s-26s for fun. I wasn't going for title, it wasn't for gear or rewards, it was for fun. This season I was basically raid logging and ready for season 2 by the first week of October. The vibe was dead before 11.0.5 launched.
i think the plunderstorm thing is that it's specifically gingi, the guy that cries for every single exploit to get people banned
It's only a bad exploit if it negatively affects gingi then he complains about it, if he's the one doing it and benefits from it he doesn't care
And of course he knew about the spot and knowingly went there. Tettles is just really out of the loop.
You just summed up the entire echo team lmao@@Zwow007
Funny enough, right after this Podcast the announced like a fucking rework of M+ completly.
Max and Trill were actively talking about getting on the roof and they put down the catapult thing. Trill is the one Gingi killed on that same roof.
I gotta disagree with growl 9:30-10:30 about competitive integrity and a 'for fun' tournament. Any discussion about 'for fun' tournament goes out the window the second there is a cash prize, let alone $25 000, that is no longer 'for fun' that is a wage for a lot of people
Just a casual $50k "for fun" event.
Absterge is 100% correct and hes probably quote tweeting the entire echo guild not just gingi lol
In my opinion TWW S1 is the worst season I have ever played in as a tank outside of SL S1 and even than it was damn close. I have none of the fantasy that comes from being a tank as I feel even squishier than when I play as something like a ret pally.
Dungeons more difficult sucks but I wouldn't have complained except now to get mythic ilvl gear I have to run a +10 and that sucks more.
Peril kind of sucks but its whatever. What sucks more is that one mess up as a tank means not 15 seconds off the key but the lost time on the boss the run back and 5 x 15 seconds. It feels way to punishing to die as a tank.
The stop change is just retarded. It causes so many issues in pugs with wasted interrupts particularly if there are rotational stops being used at bad times.
absolutely agree, and depending on a healer just feels sooo bad. Also i do not get why tanks are not allowed to blast, if tanks do actually challenge lazy dps there´s just more tanks being played. If you play 100% perfect and your reward is somehow barely living maybe if the healer did at least try to help out and slightly above mediocre dmg it´s just not enough to make anyone play tank.
One season where tanks aren’t op and they’re crashing out 😢
@@miatomi I played bear in DF S1 they were not anywhere near op than.
@@derangedhermit7981why did you say S1 and not S4 I wonder 😂😂😂😂
I mean playing healer is garbage too you are expected to carry the tank and whole group, while expecting peanut brain dps to know how to press defensives as a lot of healing checks are balanced around people pressing stuff. And your reward is getting out with headache as every boss pulse for 60% of everyone's hp per tick and everyone is 1 gcd away from dying everywhere requiring spreadsheet to cover anything. So all of that is just product for disaster.
Exasperated Growl is absolutely one of my favorite Growls.
I love growl. Actually the reason I watch this podcast
“I don’t know, I just wanted my character to die and be done with this hardcore thing.”
Also growl: “PEOPLE ARE JUST GOING TO SACRIFICE THEIR CHARACTER? THAT’S COPE!”
😂😂😂 I’m fukin dying
Tu quoque
@@StridersEgressThe timing proximity of these two statements is just funny to me. He crashed out about no one being willing to and then not long after, he admits that he is one of them. It’s like if my response to you was “Show me where the fallacy is, there’s no fallacy that’s just cope.”
Except I actually agree with Growl and I’m not trying to be a hater, I just thought it was funny. My bad lmao
growl is both intentionally but more often UNINTENTIONALLY hilarious. the guy is quite the character to listen to. cracks me up all the time
@@D2MephistoI thoroughly enjoy when he gets fired up and low key unhinged while also being reasonable as fuck with the overall opinion
1:52:48 the other issue is when there are just multiple in a single pack. A big offender I found on PTR is the patrol before the PvP boss that has two archers in them. They randomly shoot people and switch targets constantly with no indicator so if you get shot by both without being full health or running a defensive you just simply get globaled due to being unlucky. Then you pull it again and they never shoot the same person and evenly spread the damage and the pack is relatively "free".
I feel like more packs need to learn from Stonevault of all places. There are multiple packs at the end with double caster and they ONLY ever target the tank so you will never have to worry about a DPS just randomly exploding to a single missed kick that happens around the same time as Rock Smash.
"Growl shut up and ditch another TGP team" is legitimately a banger tweet and will never not be funny
Just as they post the episode Blizzard move Challenger's Peril to +12 and remove Guile lol
Blizzard LISTENED to ppl complaining about timer affix for 4 months
@@avinion i mean... kind of? not really, lol. They still kept it, just moved it to 12s. Don't get me wrong that's better than them just leaving it as it was, but they still clearly think they are right about it being a good affix.
LMAO. Blizz dropping changes right after the Bench. Bonus Ep ! Bonus Ep !
Growls voice pitch level was so high it broke a window in my room while watching him set his hair on fire....
Hot take, slightly off-topic: What are people's thoughts on a consumable bag that allows for a one-button press to use food, elixirs, weapons, and stones for single-use consumables in M+ and raids? This bag could have settings to re-up consumables based on a user-defined timer threshold or when items are missing. It seems like a QoL we might not have realized we'd needed.
Every week I love the bench more and more.
why is growl in a content creator guild when he no longer creates content
Because he is the content.
Your brain not working ?
This is a TH-cam video of WoW content that Growl helped create.
define content
Uh so this is not content?… 3 dots of shame
As someone who doesn't care about hardcore and plunderstorm it's peak angry growl
I know yall don’t understand the prot warrior thing but for me it is greatly appreciated. I honestly wish there was a talent to remove ignore pain all together and get an extra shield block charge or some passive dr because ignore pain is the worst button prot has. You can’t even macro it like iron fur without being rage starved.
i dont play plunderstorm but if you're out of the ring you should take unsustainable ticking dmg no? the ring closes PAST gingi and he's full sitting in the storm and not taking the ticking damage...like whats the confusion here? hes exploiting and was rewarded a lot of money for exploiting. granted its plunderstorm and i dont think any actual consequences should be put on his account but when your tournament on the line how are you, as a company, going to say that its okay for him to stand full in the storm, not taking damage and should win the money? fuckin wild takes from the bench crew ngl. blizzard 100% should have not announced them the winner because they actively exploited in a sanctioned tournament. that said its not surprising because blizzard has 0 backbone and refuse to ban exploiters.
I’m sensing a lot of hostility in this weeks call🤣🤣
the "for fun" tourney... with a 50k prize pool
Winning this gave you more than coming second in MDI or AWC lol
It’s still small compared to other battle royale type tournaments. And if the prize pool is bigger people start not doing fun stuff anymore and just playing turbo defensive the whole time. That’s just not fun to watch.
And watching Gingi or Trill on top of a tower is fun?
It's crazy to me they added the tank frontal to the lich in ToP. Like they didn't bring a similar mechanic from release Manifested Timeways into the M+ version because SURELY they realized organizing the entire group permanently spinning around a boss with a frontal is a bad idea and bound to have someone mess up at some point in the 3 minute fight.
that's a dumb take. they clearly exploited, a bug they knew about and i don't care who else was doing that or was up there, they shouldn't be able to win with exploit. period.
and growl saying "its plunderstorm, who cares" the winner takes 25k USDs home. so we as community members should be able to say: "that's not cool, those who played fair and beat others like the damn game intended, should win the money" it's not that hard. and people are allowed to be upset about it.
a few episodes ago tettles sat there complaining about exploits for 30 minutes and how its ruining everything, then turns around is chill with the gingi exploit, like wtf
Growl has 6/8 m and HC Classic brainrot haha
Having Frenzied Regen and Word of Glory on gcd has felt bad since they changed it in BfA and forever will.
Hate Maul on GCD too
@@MrRyan94 Maul is purely offensive being the difference. Maul is fine on the gcd and has a choice, but should probably be buffed to feel more rewarding to press
So on the roof plunder Drama heres what i know of what happened.
If you watch Ziqo pov running into the final circle he talks about going up to a cool spot (and has a clip on his channel talking about someone else doing it last time plunder was live) and gets interrupted by pika/xaryu.
Max and Trill then drop a grav pad to go up there in the final circle (intentionally), Max gets there first and is knocked off by Pikaboos Ring of Peace Bird (anyone else think its ironic Pika blocks two teams going there?) and Trill lands afterwards and is safe for a moment.
Gingi and Meeres were planning on doing a Boat strat and sitting outside the circle for a bit, but random damage broke Meeres boat. They spotted the jump pad and Gingi spotted Trill and followed, Meeres went elsewhere. Gingi then won the battle for the roof and ultimately the game.
Plunderstorm is Blizz's fault, they overlooked a spot. Would be the same if they missed a spot down on the ground and it didn't get hit by the storm, helping someone win. Not to mention how their enforcement policy is so vague and inconsistent that they now can't hand out serious punishments unless it's for extreme game-breaking abuse. In highly competitive environments, you have to push the limits and hope Blizz's interpretation of the rules is the same as yours.
I think the issue is that it was a problem in the last tourney, so people assumed it would be fixed for another “high dollar” tourney.
Guys im not mad because it was an anticlimactic ending, im mad because im an eternal echo hater and love rooting against them
Fair and same 😂
Same
Hahaha Growl is the best. What a great start to the episode 😂 the drama in wow lately has been great to watch
I think what absterge said also was targeted to the PVE competitive players, Every patch is the same with them looking for bugs/exploits to get a competitive advantage (renown, fireup focus target drama, snaps, MCs, etc), both players on that roof were RWF raiders, and almost every time they just get a warning for cheating early and that's it, It's very normalized and I agree with what he said, we should normalize the opposite and DQ/Ban that behaibour.
Growl is a national treasure
I think challengers peril actually does have a place and, if implemented properly, is what mythic plus needs. No matter what blizzard does, people complain that timers are too tight or that everything is a one shot. It’s always one or the other. If you get rid of one shots, you’ll only be gated by the timer and vice versa. They can’t win.
This affix allows them to give lenient timers to people in low keys and makes it so that we don’t have dragonflight respawn and die simulator in big keys.
It’s not perfect, but it helps reduce the tension between being limited by timers and being limited by one shots
I wonder if they will ever do a ptr that doesn't involve changing the box art classes.
Does nobody mention that gingi isnt even in the final circle after it closes..
Gingi was cheering really hard.
That was hilarious I loved the pop off for afking.
Cheating* fixed your typo
@@skarb5797 lol
damn he certainly is... growling today
My issue is that if this was a true “for fun” tournament, no money should be involved.
It's just entertainment... Every tournament format has pros and cons and makes trade-offs. This type of tournament makes trade offs of competitive integrity for entertainment elements.
I agree with growls' take on plunder. Come on who would go down and risk the tournament win. It would be sooo dumb
Everyone would have done the same. It's just COPIUM from ppl who's team didn't win or ppl who just don't like Echo. Ppl have trouble being rational.
@@tuckerstevens9689 Imagine having a Esports team or a plunderstorm team. JFC go talk to humans
Well you shouldnt agree because he also says its a "for fun toruney" which in what world would standing on that tower be any sort of fun...? Also there was a prize pool so while it is sort of for fun, its also not.
Sure, exploits are fine, meanwhile in previous episodes they are whining like a cry baby when people exploit in m+ with no real money involved. Great double standards.
@Genmurasaki well I do cause I don't think many people would throw away 25k like that. *Shrug*
Honestly was not expecting Soe and Goldenboy to be casting the plunderstorm tourny. Brought back OWL memories.
How is Stergey wrong? Multiple teams where actively trying to exploit (bypass a game mechanic that is not intended to be bypassed) and the team that won clearly abused an exploit to do it. I feel like most creators in the tournament are trying to save face at this point and make sure they keep a spot for the next Plunderstorm tournament (But god I hope they fucking shelf this shit).
Don't watch ez. Fix
Stergey: "Can people just play the game normally and not exploit?"
Growl: "What is this guy even talking about????"
8:55 if its for fun, then why a 50k price money? Thats big money for the most ppl
The APM chart gave me ptsd. Back in WoD, Warrior’s Gladiator spec was the spec with the highest APM in the game, by a decent margin. When they decided to delete the spec (and the Heroic Strike ability for warriors at the same time) they blamed it on its APM.
This was my favourite spec in the game at the time, partly because I’ve always enjoyed high APM specs and dread non gcd capped specs, and I hate that to this day they’re still using APM as an important metric for prot warriors.
I see “growl crash out” I insta click video BASED
Isn’t the KSL mount a recolor of the KSM mount?
About Plunderstorm:
I think the tournament format is fine. Its entertaining, we all knew it was like this from the start.
The way the tournament ended with the cheese is a bit dissapointing. Not blaming Gingi at all, he just does what he can to win. Just saying its a dissapointing ending to a very fun tournament and Blizz should make sure that kind of cheese is not possible next time.
Asmon 100% hacked for sure. Its not like one of the Shitter high-ups has a beef with him or anything
WS could probably just use some visual clarity.
Platinum Pummler should 100% get some sort of visual indicator when he gets a stack since it feels like the only way to tell is to just stare at his buff bar.
Machinist's Garden not having better visuals when everything else did is honestly just insane to me. The sawblades are still obnoxious to track and still do ridiculous damage if you get clipped by one considering there are like a dozen of them flying around at any given time.
I'd like to have a beer with Marcus Aurelius, Buddha and Growl. My life would be complete
In the words of THE MAN, JPC, only people under 30 are able to play Outlaw. Welcome to the young man only crowd Prot Warrior.
Crash out early, crash out often
had to watch asap for the crash out
Growl's right in that if it wasn't Gingj doing the "exploit", people wouldnt be as mad.
The WoW community is out for blood right now and I am for it, cinemaa bby
As someone who has mained outlaw for 6+ seasons now, and love it, I wouldn't mind bringing the pace down a bit. Long term, heavy-use of outlaw is just hard on your hands.
Yes 100% that heroic raid feels so good to play then you get to mythic and it's like "wtf have they done to this boss, it's shit now".
I agree with some of Growl's points but I am focused on other aspects of the recent dramas.
Plunderstorm is in the checkmate format so there can be an exciting finish - what we got was Echo/Gingi yet AGAIN abusing the game to win a competition. There was nothing exciting about that ending, Mes should have won.
On the classic HC arena stuff, it's not the fact that people were defending Yamato - it's the layer swapping, hiding streams, not inviting to the correct layer once one had been established, and generally going against the spirit of the punishment to protect the guy that ninja looted and called out classic players as shit. He got his shit pushed in during the duels. The arena is not a duel, lag should not have been a factor, it was meant to be a public execution let's be real.
holy shit dude its this a 10 minute ad read for a weakaura pack lol
didnt understand ONE thing about that classic segment
I could see the reason why the timers in the returning dungeons feel way easier is because of how much more „free“ cleave most specs have gotten (that was at least a big talking point in this raid) so specs do way more AoE while keeping most of their single target compared to the seasons when these dungeons where first around 🤷♂️
Ngl, the second I saw GRowl in that arena I was disappointed lol. Yamato is just a huge rat and toxic AF, and that dude did not deserve the support he got lol. Little bro was basically crying to tyler ever little thing that happened to him since HC started. Also the plunderstorm ending was PURE CINEMA.
Oh wow gingi cheating? I’m shocked
I don't think I've ever disagreed nearly as much the theater of pain lich is not okay if u have two melee the spread circles basically can't happen and keep uptime, the orb rotates way too fast so u have to constantly keep going and if ur tank happens to walk a smidge too far from boss she's smacking someone else, the adds hp is crazy high and our tank was dropping an ass like literally only a playable boss as ranged
The play in workshop is going to be skip the last pack, do the boss, then go back and pure ST focus down the lowest HP mob and hope you kill it before you die.
Great episode, thanks guys.
The first boss of ToP just needs to move the damage out of the spread dot and into something else. It's basically last boss of Arakara...except it does more damage....and you can't dispel it. Like how am I supposed to bring, heaven forbid, 2 melee to that fight as MW and be expected to be able to heal the DoT that does 60%+ of your health a tick?
So when we gonna talk that Max and Trill were on that roof for good few minutes just chilling till Gingi jumped there????
It’s been known since last tourney, they didn’t invent/teach Gingi the tech
Growl is wrong though, Tyler’s group hopping layers to avoid lag made sense completely, but by default it results in everybody who wanted to participate needing to go later by layer just to even see what was happening, and reform groups to try and hop in, and with the layering ICD and the 7min time frame given, made it nearly impossible to form a group.
That’s why people are mad, because even if they didn’t intend to purposefully keep him alive via layering, that’s what inevitably happened.
Prot warrior main: the response from Kaivax felt incredibly tone deaf, and it's very frustrating. I love the class fantasy of the lots of shield slams. I love the higher APM. I came back to TWW after a two expansion break and fell in love with how Thane ProtWar feels and that's changing and it doesn't feel great. As I look at other high APM specs without changes I just can't help but feel like what Growl says is true, there's just a guy or two on each spec... and the prot warrior one doesn't seem to play it.
Losing your mind is a small price to pay for the crap he was part of in the arena
My spicy take is that since Blizzard started making raids melee friendly the quality of the raid bosses has been declining. This is because in my opinion to make a variety of mechanically interesting bosses you inevitably run into issues with making bosses melee friendly.
Melee need to run out and soak on Ulgrax and run off ads when the boss comes back up, run out to place shades on Sikran and run out during the AoE, run out of melee to place webs far away and be careful running back in to not hit non-webbed people, constantly get bombarded with swirlies that get covered up by eggs and the boss itself and other adds on Broodtwister, plus potentially lose uptime when you have to pop eggs that are far away on boss and run away from boss to kick the acid burst casting add, and on Queen Ansurek, lose uptime on Venom Nova pops and have to run away from boss during Wrest to not get eaten and keep back-pedalling while keeping an eye on balls coming out from just in front of them from the boss and keep strafing away from expanding acid pools and run out of space at the end of intermission and only be able to hit ads away from the edge of intermission platforms to not get pulled off and lose uptime to do Shadowgate portals oh and lose uptime to web blades while ranged can literally just sidestep them.
The only fight that is harder for ranged is Nexus-Princess, and Silken Court is...about the same. 1 out of 8 fights is "meLeE FriEnDlY".
Your take is not a "spicy take". It's an idiotic take. Wtf are you waffling about, Jackel15935736478468847?
@@Frawt Maybe you haven't played both range and melee on mythic this teir but you not taking into account that any fight with high movement is very similar to melee running out of melee distance of boss for range besides BM hunter.
Ulgrax is a little better for range but not by much
Bloodbound horror way easier for melee
Sikran is easier for melee unless range never gets targeted with the mechanic
Rasha'nan is kinda even depending on class
Broodtwister is way easier for range
Nexus-Princess is easier for mele in intermission and about the same for normal phases
Silken Court is about even depend on class some classes have it way easier then others
Queen phase 1 and 3 is so much easier for mele and phase 2 is easier for range but that phase doesn't matter as much
So if you want to keep score its 2 hard and 1 easy fight that's better for melee and 1 hard and 1 easy fight that's better for range. 3 fights are about even. This teir has been pretty even for balance the big thing people will notice is the last two finals bosses it has been better to have more melee than range because of the high movement.
Haste affecting ability cooldowns and resource generation was the worst design change WoW has ever implemented.
the new prot pal tier set makes it feel even more like current warrior, in wings especially you're constantly getting sotr refunds
they target specifically Prot Warrior because tanking in M+ is already hard enough, why would they bother targetting dps? Sure, Prot Pally has higher APM, but Prot Pally is bringing off heal and insane utility for the group while Prot Warrior is using this APM JUST TO SURVIVE (and do damage obviously, but thats what all do).
@thebenchpodcast i appreciated schrodingers growl joke 👏 👏 👏
You had me at drama
that growl intro rant is epic! :D
Gingi went to known location even from first tournament, he also went there because he saw Trill up there and took his spot.. If Trill won like that Cdew wouldn't cry on Twitter..
Can we get a spinoff pod of growl melting down for an hour?
The group i ran with on ptr +2'd ToP 10 with a full wipe and like 15 deaths, timer might be extra. But it was also incredibly refreshing not just losing the timer to a wipe.
I completely disagree with Growls take on not blaming Blizzard.
Gingi was fine to take advantage of Blizzards shit design. Blizzard were also right to not restart the march or punish anyone for playing the game in a manner which Blizzard allowed.
That said, the fact that Blizzard did not anticipate any Z axis issues in their game that has had CONSTANT Z axis issues in all forms of content is poor and they should be rightfully criticized for this.
If you cannot design mechanics that dont do weird shit on stairs, pillars, towers, ramps then stop putting those mechanics or terrains in the game. It is inexcusable in 2025 after over 10 years of Z axis issues that we're having these issues in the game and ESPECIALLY in broadcasted tournaments with massive audiences
I'm glad I leveled and geared a BM hunter out of no where the other day. I'm done with the little melee freak circus flagellation thing they have going on, I can't anymore. I'll play melee again when they figure out the concept of compensation.
Growl just machine gunning Ws
It's hilarious to hear Growl say that "you can't just go into TGP without practice like you can in CS" when current CS teams' anti-stratting each other and how important that is goes waaay beyond anything in TGP.
But of course it's always easy to diminish the merit of something you know absolutely nothing about...but like...not a good thing to bring up as a (counter-)example then.
I could be wrong, but i don't think Gingi standing up on the pillar dodging the swirls was the big issue. If you were to look at Gingis POV in his VOD at 9:17:30 you see the circle / storm closing in and Gingi is on the outside of it not taking damage. Later the circle moves towards Gingi playing into his favor. Love the podcast
I feel like I am doing more than 80 apm when I play an enh shaman in any minute+ long fight.
Plunderstorm - make the safe area shrink spherically, instead of cylindrical so that if you are at the top of a high enough tower to not be in range of regular abilities you will end up outside the safe area as the sphere shrinks. Sure you might not have to dodge all the lightning on the ground but you will still be in range of the enemy attacks.
does this cover growls crash out on Onlyfangs yesterday as well? That was fuckin based
Tettles calling prot warriors boomers next second the apm image gets linked and balance druid is at the bottom KEKW
10:38 Squishei says it's "Anti-climactic". What an idiotic take. The ending was the most tension possible and created the most drama and visibility.