Songs that use 17/8 time
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
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The higher we go with odd time signatures, the rarer they become, but, although uncommon, 17/8 time is still used to great effect in many pieces of music.
And, an extra special thanks goes to Douglas Lind, Vidad Flowers, Ivan Pang, Waylon Fairbanks, Jon Dye, Austin Russell, Christopher Ryan, Toot & Paul Peijzel, the channel’s Patreon saints! 😇
This video was edited by David Hartley. Check out his TH-cam channel here: / davidhartley94
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0:00 Introduction
0:10 Yes
0:49 Björk
1:55 The National
2:38 Dream Theater
3:45 17/8 vs. 17/4
4:24 Pianote
5:22 17/4 time
6:39 Grammy award winning time signature
7:32 Piano outro
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You know David. Your music deserves much, much more attention. Your music theory is spot on but your style and subtle swing sense is perfect.
This video was posted 6 hours ago, how is this comment from 7 days ago
Just realized this video was probably inspired by Adam Neely's recent Q&A where he talked about the Bluey theme song and how you can count the time signature in (4+4+4+5)/4, which is of course 17/4.
Another notable example of 17/8 is Aziza Dance by Lionel Loueke. Great tune, with solos in 17 as well. But its all tied together by the bass ostinato which clearly leads to the 1
@@quesisa311 uploaded unlisted before release
Bro you’re gonna run out of time signatures😭😭😭
Yeah, the season finale is coming!
@@DavidBennettPiano 19/16?
Then time signatures like 1/3 will come 😊
3 years later:
Today we're doing 37645/213 time. Where there are 37645 beats per measure using 213th notes.
For April Fools: Songs that use 4/4 😂
I love that you included DT's guitarist saying, "We just won a Grammy, so glad we didn't listen". Never let someone else tell you that your music is "too weird".
Dream Theater have some great music if you enjoy slightly weird stuff!
@@AJPMUSIC_OFFICIAL , I love DT. Their music is great. Petrucci does sometimes overdo it with the guitar solos, but it's still amazing. One of my favorite bands.
@@AJPMUSIC_OFFICIAL The fact that you consider non-standard music to be "weird" is the point. It's not weird. What's weird is everyone listening to "music" about shaking your half-naked ass in 4/4, like most people do.
Weird music? They're cheesy af
@@guitaristssuck8979 🎣
Name a more iconic duo: Bjork and an obscure Time signature
Jordan Rudess and a newly released keyboard?
Sounding weird is kind of her signature lol.
@@themidnightchoir yea she's known for not having any time signature lol.
Biophilia is my favorite Bjork album. Her use of 17/8 feels like some natural process which reliably recurs but which we have trouble grasping when we try to pay precise attention to it. That combination of not being able to fully understand, but being able to rely on it, describes nature really beautifully.
Wow, what a beautiful review!
Open Car by Porcupine Tree is also in 17/8 but it can be thought of as 5+5+5+2. Another song of theirs from the same album called Halo has a middle-eight also in 17/8, at least I think so when I can keep count- definitely sounds like a rhythmic illusion.
Now that I think of it, David doesn't feature Porcupine Tree on this channel very often, does he?
I think the illusion is from Gavin Harrison's overriding technique
The Halo section is indeed in 17/8. Focus solely on the guitar riff, and you'll hear the pattern is a quick 5+5+7
@@magdakos4690 Yeah surprisingly actually, since they're British as well (so maybe not that obscure) and they would fit well into other stuff he likes.
@@aresh.4341 Exactly. The overriding technique makes the 2 bars of 17/8 (or what I prefer to see as 4 bars of 17/16) feel like 17/4...which you can tap your foot to.
I love David's own compositions at the end of each video. This one is particularly beautiful. Thank you David.
I was just coming here to say the exact same thing! His original composition is the best use of the time signature I think!
I wish David would publish a compilation of all of these short pieces together.
@@jasonchicago7276 Same here :) Quite brilliant, the 17 oddness is clearly there but very subtly. It really adds something to the mesmerizing chords.
Yes this one is really nice
I love how it gives a truly personal touch to his vids. 🎼17/8
Loving this series. As for songs in 17, Do Not Look Down by Meshuggah is a great 17/16 riff over a 4/4 pulse, and has an amazing groove to it, just sounds like a weird 4/4.
Came here looking for this. I feel that for any odd time signature you choose, you could find an example from Meshuggah.
I really hope a new serie on mixed time signatures after this one :)
Of course Meshuggah comes to mind, but I also love the intro of Rush's Jacob's Ladder for example
When it comes to Meshuggah, the case can be made that most of their songs actually are in 4/4, and just examples of polymetrics rather than simply songs in odd time signatures, since the most obvious puls will almost always be 4/4.
That being said, I'm seeing them live tomorrow, for the first time in 15 years, and I can't wait!
I will never understand how meshuggah plays their catalog perfectly with a huge amount of insane songs with more insane time signatures and changes. Its impressive how tight they play live with that type of music.
@@Domitianvs How was it? :D
So, not only is Alien in 17/8 but it the riff also looks to be in E locrian. Fascinating. Reminds me a bit of At Doom's Gate or the track from E1M1 from the 1993 Doom game. Although that one is in 4/4 but also is arguably in E locrian.
At Doom's Gate is in several locrian keys... it gets around the problem of the locrian half diminished root chord by just modulating instead. Because if you try for a chord sequence following a half diminished, most chords will feel like a resolution and potentially steal the key. And yeah, eventually locrian becomes too tame (from the repetition) and things get crunchier and more free form than a specific mode.
Love seeing some Dream Theater on here, you should maybe include some Haken stuff they always play with cool time signatures.
Always hoping for someone to talk about the demonstrative syncopation game at play with "I wish I could have BEEN somebody I WISH I could have been SOMEBOdy I wish I could have been someBODY I wish I COULD have been someboDY" etc.
@@drauncj Yessssss
Agreed. I would love for someone to break down sempiternal beings by Haken!
@@drauncj YES. The phrase has 9 syllables, which spreads over a 5 note descending scale in a 7/8 feel (made of 2 x 7/16).
What's interesting about it is that the 5-note descending scale could have been applied to ANY time signature (even 4/4). That overlapping feel of the syllables is INDEPENDENT from the time signature and solely happens from "number of syllables" VS number of notes in your repeating melodic cycle (regardless of how they're spread rythmically!)
So it's a 9 against 5 that comes around after saying the phrase 5 times (or signing the descending line 9 times).
In the case of Haken, the cycle comes back after 9 bars of 7/16... or in the MIDDLE of the 5th bar of 7/8.... which feels unresolved, so we go round the cycle again until we reach 9 bars of 7/8 (or 18 bars of 7/16).
WHEW.
I would like to note for the Dream Theater example, I don't feel the pulse can just be subdivided into 8 quarter notes and a final 8th note, in my opinion, the notes are subdivided into two groups of 5 and then 7, which then can be subdivided into quarter notes with an extra 8th note
I've come back to once again suggest a video about particularly long songs and their composition, like for example Pink Floyd's ''Echoes'', ''Dogs'' and ''Atom Heart Mother'', or Yes' ''Close to the Edge''.
Echoes, for example, has like 3 different genres in it (Rock, funk, ambient), and multiple time signatures 4/4 and 12/8. Perhaps alternately, it could be a video about songs that include multiple genres? (even though yes, I'm aware that in progressive rock, like Echoes is, any genre in it is still progressive rock, but still.)
Yeah, but 12/8 can easily be “4 with a 12 feeling”.
@@edryba4867 Echoes starts off in 4/4, and then changes to 12/8 in the “phantom of the opera-ish” part.
@@NBrixH Sounds like 4/4 to me. I think polyphonic has a video about the song if you're interested. But more prog would definitely be appreciated on this channel! I would add "Supper's Ready" by Genesis to your list. 20+ min with a wonderful 9/8 polymetric part towards the end.
@@greenbear1561 What part are you listening to? The beginning is in 4/4 but then it changes to 12/8. I'm pretty sure it's only the guitar part that is in 12/8, the percussion in 4/4.
@@NBrixH From after the first "starts to climb towards the light". If you count in four, the guitar comes in with the chromatic riff on beat 4 every second bar and repeats like that for the entire section. Which means it's also playing in four. A 12/8 is usually felt in 4 groupings of three, giving the time a triplet feel, but if you count the sixteenth notes here they come in groups of four.
I really really like your original piece at the end.
An interesting example of 17/8 (or 17/16) can be found in the first section of "Il vitello dei piedi di balsa" by the Italian rock band Elio e le storie tese, quite a peculiar take imo
Hey there, I'm a drummer and might give you some helpful inside how these "weird tracks" can be easily learned and written.
The most important thing is, as weird as it might sound at these odd time signatures, to feel, were the composer want you to feel the beat. And it is important to set the written odd signature into perspective with the other parts of the song.
I first learned this lecture as i was learning to transcribe the early works of Genesis. Best known and infamous is the solo from the song Firth of Fifth. But as soon as you understand how they wrote the solo, it gets rather easy to follow. Because in the end, it's only 3/8 and 4/8 mashed together, as most songs in western pop music, being rhythmically challenging for the central European ear, are.
A big time signature as 17/8 kann be divided into many different sums of signatures that are easier to comprehend, David showed this at the example of Erasures - Always but i think he made a crucial mistake there by dividing as he did.
The song feels clearly like a 4/4 up until the last 2 Notes. But how David transcribed this feels weird to me. The whole chorus feels like one frase, so if i would play it, i would count a 4/2, if you want to transcribe it as David did here. Therefore i would argue, that the Chorus was actually written in 4/2 but they simple put 1 additional halfnote at the end. So to learn this song it's way easier to play 4*4/2+1/2. You can clearly feel, that one bar starts on the first syllable of the first "harmony". Also, counting as David did, you end up moving the felt 1 to 4. And that just doesn't feel right in context.
The same goes with songs like Dream Theaters - The Alien. This one is written as 5/8 but 2 8th are squeezed into the 3rd repetition, creating a 2*5/8+7/8 bar. If you want to learn this step by step, start with dividing the 5/8 into 2/8+3/8 and the 7/8 into 2*2/8+3/8. This way you can really easily follow. The same rhythm can be found up until the first significant change into a 4/4.
Moon by Björk is a whole different story tho. When you listen to the vibraphone, you can hear a steady 2*4/8+5/8+4/8. Overlaying this, the main riff plays 3*3/8+2*4/8. I would argue, that we start with a prelude of 4/8 so that the true 1 is on the first 3/4 frase. This one is so hard to feel because not only does the vibraphone and harp play contrary rhythms, Björk also paraphrases the rhythm further with her singing.
Same way of using polyrhythmic structures can be found in a lot of pieces from Dream Theater. If you want to learn odd meters and polyrhythm, try to learn how to follow the different instruments of their compositions.
And last but not least, if it works, it's not stupid! Feel the music and listen what it wants you to do. That way you probably won't find the true "1" of a bar, but you become a better musician. :D
Thanks for reading and have a nice day, to whoever reads it! :)
Changes is my favorite Yes song. Straight up bop.
I cannot express how much I LOVE your series of odd time signatures!!!
Rather than feeling an emphasis on the quarter note downbeats in The Alien, I feel it much more as 5/8, 5/8 and then 7/8 - by feeling the accents that the band’s instruments are enhancing. Meaning: 1st and 3rd eighth-note in the 5/8-places and then 1st, 3rd and 5th eighth-note during the 7/8. Dream Theater use this kind of odd time signature-combinations incessantly.
That’s kind of an easy way to feel fast, odd time signatures like this, rather than counting all eighth-notes (Gavin Harrison, the drummer from Porcupine Tree, is a heavy endorser on this subject matter).
David, your composition at the end was absolutely beautiful.
Thank you for sharing the knowledge, as well as your beautiful song... literally moved me to tears!
You have one of the best channels on TH-cam. Really love your content.
My favorite 17/8 track will always be "Noisia - The Hole pt.1". Just dark, hypnotising athmospheres and Fast Breaks. Probably my most listened to DnB track of all time
The bit you played at the end was really nice. Well done!!
I always thought I had a vague understanding of time signatures for years, but this video finally made it click for me. It's actually so simple to understand now that I've heard it phrased in the way you have in this video. You rock!
Great job on the composition, David. You made 17/8 sound very natural.
Thanks, David. For decades I've wondered about the intro to "Changes" by Yes and could never seem to count it out. Finally.
Another excellent video, thank you, David.
Yeah! Very informative. I just recently composed a piece in 17/8 for piano after deeply emersing myself into Nate Smiths Skip Step which is also in 17/8. Both his and mine tune feel more like a 4/4 bar followed by a 3/4 bar followed by a 3/8 bar.
Thank you for this video. I think your composition is really interesting because it feel more like you're adding a half time than slicing the last time in half. Beautiful.
Yes and Dream Theater are nuts. Great songs and great video once again!
Beautiful! Thank you!
6:02 this is a very important part, i love this series, thank you for making this video!!
Very helpful! The time sig of the song "Changes" by Yes always eluded me, but now I know!!!!
Yes! "Changes", definitely the song I like most by Yes. Now I know its time signature!
Your piece at the end is beautiful.
OM, your original piece at the end is gorgeous. Yes thanks.
Great video as always! Keep up the great work!
Thanks again!
Loved the video and the last composition 🙌🏼🖤
Lovely piano piece at the end!
Brilliant!👏😊🎼
Excellent video! Great to see you featuring Yes so prominently, one of my favourite bands. I always wondered why the intro to Changes was so mesmerising, until it changes (ahem) gear to something more conventional, presumably 4/4. Well done.
Interesting that you use a relatively recent clip from ARW. FYI The video 9012 live, from 1985, features the lineup that actually made this record.
2:00 omg that makes so much sense. I’ve been trying to learn drums for about two years now and the national is always a go to for practice. When I’m playing it’s hard to tell exactly what’s going on. I don’t read music or anything but I can tell when a song is in a weird time signature. I just never know what that time signature is specifically. Once you get used to playing something it starts to feel totally natural. It’s nice because I used to struggle with anything that wasn’t in 4 or 3 before I started playing drums. Now I feel like I can handle just about anything
Congrats uwu
Mostly above my head, but great stuff to dive in to, thanks for detailing!
Thank you for that tune at the end
Petrucci on my fave TH-cam channel. What a day! Thank you David.
i've loved the alien since i heard it live on their tour of the album but i've never really noticed the feel of it
The piano outro is just beautiful. That is the kind of music I enjoy.
this was a fascinating randomly recommended video
You should do a video on the time signatures for the The Smile album A Light for Attracting Attention. Some of those are just everywhere! And it's a great album.
Beautiful song at the end.
David, you should analyze more metal music. It would fit right in with your expert analysis of complex and melodical music 👍🏻
Out of all the examples you gave, I enjoyed the one you wrote at the end the most. I'd like to hear it worked out.
An amazing video. Knowing next to nothing about musical theory but being keen on mathematics this really made me think about the role of prime numbers in music.
The best series is back for more! Spicy as always
😊😊😊🌶🌶🌶
Very good! I always wondered who would notice Bjork Moon in 17/8
im not kidding when i say that the piano outro is one of the most beautiful things ive heard, man...
Would love to see the time signatures of king crimson. So many puzzle piece song that are great mind games to figure out how to feel
The piece at the end is so calming 🫠
Thank you 😊
@@DavidBennettPiano yw 😅
Thank you very much, it's easy to understand and easy to follow even for those, like me, whose "english" isn't their native language.
theres’s this song called “perro chico malo - fulano” that is in 17/8 too and is really cool in general. it’s like a jazzy vocal thing something like cortex
Splendid composition. 🎼
A new example just came out this year, Landmine Blast by Riverside. Really fun track, kind of a 4-3-4-3-3.
That picture of bjork is one of my favourite pictures of any human ever
Fart knocker
Congrats for 800.000 follower!
Lovely ending track! IIRC The Mars Volta's "Tetragrammaton" is partly in 17/8, too.
That Erasure excerpt sounds to me as though it is just an eight-bar phrase in 4/4 with the seventh bar lengthened to 6/4: so [4:4:4:4:4:4:6:4/4]. As you point out, many such time signatures are really compounds of shorter but unequal bars. (Your composition at the end is in [4:4:4:5/8].) Others can be thought of as having an unequal beat. Many prog rock pieces in odd quaver time can be read as a repeating pattern of crotchets and dotted crotchets. I recently wrote a piece in 7/8 which - like many such pieces I suspect - is almost entirely in a regular three-beat bar [crotchet:crotchet:dotted crotchet]. Even notionally even-numbered time signatures can have this uneven quality: doesn't the beginning of Tubular Bells effectively alternate between 14/8 and 16/8 ([7+7/8 and 7+9/8])? It would be possible but unhelpful to write this as a consistent time signature of 30/8!
But I really can't tap my feet to the Bjork!
I named the first example before even opening your video. You have taste, David.
Thanks for including Trevor Rabin era Yes. Check out Endless Dream for the proggiest song he ever composed with them.
I always love your own tracks at the end.....I listen to every single one.
And it's weird how this time signature is so....difficult, and yet....this might be my favorite of your own stuff so far.
It sounds like a Radiohead song in the best sense. Has that odd push/pull of a song like Sail to the Moon. Where you can tell things are....off/odd, yet it feels...right.
Beeeeeaaaautiful track you composed!
Really love the ending piano track. It reminds me slightly of a Satie Gynompedie which is a great thing :)
There are a couple of songs from Bjork's album Biophilia that are in 17/8; Moon & Crystalline. I thought Solstice was as well actually, but it seems to start in 19/8, then go on to...something, but I've no idea what! 😵💫
Great video. My brain just can't make sense of 17/8 time but that's probably why I love so much of it.
This was really good, I really appreciated you pointing out the difference in feel from 17/8 to 17/4. I wish you touched upon 17/16, which would further highlight and probably fully expand on the feels possible to 17 counted time. In general the 4-8-16 progression makes the underlying rhythm more stabby.
David, your outro is gorgeous
one of my favourites!
Another tune to add to the 17/8 bin is “Next” by Bela Fleck and the Flecktones.
Very cool. It makes the songs very dreamlike and otherworldly because you can never quite follow along with the beat.
can’t wait for 19/16 vid!!
I Need Salt by Tha National is 3/4+3/8+4/4. The bottom number is the number that gets the beat, and that song is definitely quarter note gets the beat. This also is the best configuration for where the lyrics match up with the downbeat of the measure. You can come up with any crazy way to distribute beats into measures, 4/8+5/8+4/8 works mathematically, but it really doesn’t match up with the pulse nor is it easy read. I count my example II: 1 & 2 & 3 &, 1 2 3, 1 & 2 & 3 & 4& :II as you can see, it’s subdivided into 17 eighths, but this arrangement is much easier to feel than 4/8+5/8+4/8. In any x//8 time signature, the beats can always be grouped into pairs or triplets. 10/8 can be 12 12 123 123, or 12 123 123 12, basically any combination. 11/8 could be 12 123 123 123, and you can move around the duplets wherever you like. The key point is that sheet music is meant to be read and should make sense and be as easy to read as it can be. Beats in music tend to be in groups or two or three and where a clear beat is established, it should be simplified. Bjork example makes more sense in 17/8 as it intentionally avoids a feeling of a downbeat, but I’m sure it could be simplified for the musician reading it as well.
Good video amigo!
I subscribed just because you pronounced Bjork correctly. Very interesting stuff.
Before starting video, I hope Aziza Dance by Lionel Loueke gets a mention. It’s felt like two bars of 4/4 with an added eighth note.
Nice piece..😊
The 17/4 in Erasure's Always is specifically made to connect the loops of the chorus seamlessly as if it never finished but just kept rolling back to the start, right? As such I'd almost like to think of it with the split that leaves it looking like it was short of 18/4.
I'd love an analysis on Symphony X's Fallen's piano part in the intro. The changing pattern really tries to escape me when I think I got it and it changes, and I think it changes to even meter when the guitar comes along making it further confusing.
Party In Simon's Pants from Steve Lukather's 2nd solo album is in 17/8. I visited a master class of Simon Phillips and someone asked him how he is counting in tat song in a live situation. Simon was laughing and told us he always counts in in 4/4.
"Changes" by Yes has one of my favorite song intros of all time. I believe "Miracle of Life" from Union also has a 17/8 intro... and it is awesome.
Super cool and nice! Make a video about 13/7 time⏳
great video. if i may offer a small suggestion, I would've notated the Erasure track at half the tempo that was shown in the video - it really feels like 3 bars of 4 with 1 bar of 5 a single time, rather than the two instances that were shown (the downbeats would be on Al(ways), Be (with you), lieve, and Har(mony)). Not sure if that makes any sense how i described it here, but it would make it more intuitive to understand from a notation standpoint. Of course this is just my opinion, and generally everything you said I would agree with. Great video as always, keep making these!
Came here to say exactly that, but felt sure someone would have beat me to it, as you did!
I woudl suspect David just made a mistake when notating, and that he does feel it the way you describe.
I agree on the half tempo, but to my ear that bar of 5 is better notated as a bar of 6/8 and a bar of 2/4
The last piano piece reminded me of Space-dye vest by DT
Do whatever “Concerning the UFO Sighting Near Highland, Illinois” is in!
David Bennett Piano in 2047: "Songs that Use 1249/8 Time"
in all seriousness, amazing work on this video as always! my partner and i are both musicians and we love your channel :)
At this rate I'm going to have to invent some new time signatures to keep this going! Thanks for your support 😊
The song 17 by House of Waters surprisingly is in 17/8 time signature 😊
Frickin love Dream Theater. Cant wait to see em tour next year.
your own composition sounds like Trant Reznor's music, I love it, my compliments ! )
Whiplash ! 17/8 iconic jazz big band tune.
You need to check out planet X that band has crazy time Signatures and a lot of metric modulations . Ty for all that great examples of different music examples.
I love your track
Intro\Outro parts of "Trapped in the Wake of a Dream" by Mudvayne is also 17/8, switching to 13\8 and 11\8
And now I know why "Changes" always baffled my mind.
That and "Apocalypse in 9/8" in Supper's ready from Genesis, on Foxtrot album. (yeah, didn't understood the title back then ^^)
Commendable effort