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Did you see Liz Amazing, got a cease and assists notice from Lippert. To stop her research, and interviews with clients. They told her she needed to take down her videos. I’m thinking that the manufacturers are trying not to listen. We all need to call them out! Maybe the feds can get involved and regulate the industry standards. Keep up the great investigations. Love the videos.
@@ahson2465federal regulations would result in them building to a required minimum spec. Same as airline regulations, car regulations, building regulations, if there were regulations on minimum engineering this wouldn’t be an issue. Unfortunately companies rarely do the right thing or fix known problems resulting in killing people over profits.
Hi Everyone, This is Nate Goldenberg one of the owners of Brinkley. I'm not sure anyone will see this, but I have to comment based on what was said here. Brinkley is not being sold to Winnebago or anyone else. There's never even been a conversation about it, and there's no one in our ownership group who wants to sell. We have zero interest. This is not a real thing; it's a rumor started by Forest River. Our competitors pray every night we will sell, but we're not going to. In 10, 15, 20 years, maybe it's a different story, but not today or anything soon. What's probably more likely is we get the next generation involved and keep it in the family. There are 13 kids between the owners. I'm sure someone will have some interest. Part of what makes Brinkley strong is being private and not having outside influences. So, there you have it for anyone online claiming to spread the truth. I hope you can talk about this too! It's from a pretty good source. All the best!
I think we do need an RV owners association so we can speak as one voice. I think tens of thousands of RVers would join it. RV industry would no longer be able to just ignore us as individuals but something this big could not be ignored.
We own a 2020 Forest River Impression MPF34MID. Bought it used and haven't slept in it one night. Been dealing with frame failure and frame camber (sag) since we bought it. We were quoted $24,000 to have it repaired and the trailer is not worth it. We have contacted NHTSA and Transport Canada but not enough cases have shown up in Canada for them to deal with it. Glad to see something is happening and we are not alone. Good luck everyone and keep making waves!!
How far are you from Elkhart, Indiana? I bet if you called them now, they may reconsider repairing your rig. Make sure they also reimburse you for any lodging you may need.
Putting a 3/8 bolt in a 1/2” hole is just asking for problems. The ability of movement across 8-10 holes with 5 to 10 tons of inertia of starting and stopping and then add the fact that they are not even utilizing all the holes available is criminal. The fact that there is no government agency to check this across the RV industry is scary.
Glad you guys are reporting about the frame failures. Liz Amazing just released her video reporting manufacturer legal pressure exerted on her for reporting frame failures.
They are clearly threatening her. When multi billion dollar companies threaten one little lady with legal action, they are afraid. But it’s too late we all know now.
I see a big class action lawsuit coming. This could put them in receivership. They knew of the flaws for a long time and didn’t try to change the engineering. Same goes with Grand Design.
@@WestsontheMove it was, she was told not to use a person to describe something without naming names or supplying proof. Standard legal 101. its ok for the couples who say thier frame is broken, no third party
I don’t have an RV however I have been following the posts about GD frame issues for awhile now And I find it amazing that these issues are being ignored…and these folks that pay 100K for these rigs are getting screwed what is going to happen when someone is injured or Killed because a frame fails out on the Highway
Thank you guys for addressing this issue. I am really disappointed in GD at this time in the way they are not adequately responding to their frame problems. I’ve had two GD units with no major problems but I expect them to take care of family. This has caused me to reconsider getting another GD this summer. I’m waiting and watching for their response.
If Winnebago buys Brinkley then I am crossing Brinkley off my list of future purchases. They ruined Grand Design (change my mind) and they will ruin Brinkley.
I would not go with Brinkley any longer because they don’t offer independent suspension on their rigs but Alliance does. This means they are in Dexters pockets with their new leaf spring suspension. Toured both companies this week.
I was at a Grand Design rally years back, and heard Don Clark, President of Grand Design tell us that Grand Design was not for sale and rumors of being bought out by Winnebago were 100% false. Three months later GD was bought out by Winnebago. So any denials being said by any RV company cannot be believed.
Hi ScottVanArtsdalen, This is Nate Goldenberg, one of the owners of Brinkley. I can tell you 100% we're not selling to Winnebago. Our company is not for sale nor has there ever even been a conversation with them. This rumor was started by Forest River and was broadcast by HBRV in the name of truth BUT there's literally Zero truth to it! Pete - For everyone's sake, especially the consumers, let's stop the rumor. It's just confusing people.
It is not only Grand Design, my rig was returned to the factory and the frame bias as they called it was repaired. Then I put Morryde IS and disk brakes and it seamed ok for now.
You needed the I.S. before you got the frame failure, for sure but we got it (MORryde I.S.) 4 months from purchase of our Momentum 395ms-r and we have early stages of frame failure even with it. Sitting here waiting for a 4/22/24 drop off to Grand Design. Plain and simple, Grand Design cut major corners for their bottom line…money!
I had some contact with another GD owner with a serious problem with frame flex/failure and questioned the weight of his rig, curious about the loading more than anything. He replied that it came to question to him and since he had someone that wanted his RV, as is, he totally unloaded it including the washer and dryer that he had installed. It was totally empty as would have come from the manufacturer and it scaled about 17,450 which is approximately 1200# above the sticker weight. This would leave very little to be able to load before being over max weight. This would indicate that GD overloaded the design and probably the frame design also. This is something to seriously consider and to check.
My question would be, if Grand design has the ability of camp sights right on campus...why couldn't they put the folks up in an RV right on campus as there units are getting repaired???
i delivered 2 Grand Design toy haulers and both failed picked up at factory new and delivered in 5k miles to dealer and both failed .. in 2 different ways then were trying to make me claim them saying i damaged them in a accident .. after proving it with my video logs ... i never went back to company again to deliver there junk again .... i know its not Lippert's fault .. lippert build them to there designs but when Grand Design doesn't tell lippert of changes to frame to do reconstruction on trailer so they can save money ..lippert get blamed for failures when i asked the company when was the last time you do full road tests on your new designed trailers ,, he said they dont ... its been about 9 designs ago that 9 yrs
An NDA is the normal to make sure you have no idea how good a deal someone else got. So they can try to pay as little as they can to whoever they can't shut up.
We had someone in the Grand Design RV Major Issues FB site do the math on that for 1-year. If you use use their stat of “less than 1/2 of 1% it comes out to 1800 Grand Design 5th wheels, using their statistics. Even that is too many per year, let alone the numbers we are starting to see from a percentage stand point. Someone is trying to downplay how big this problem really is for them.
"Frame Flex" has prevented me from purchasing a new toy hauler at the Monroe RV show. My question is, how many other of the "top tier" fifth wheel brands are affected by this? I want a toy hauler. Momentum 399th (or 376th) WAS top of the list. Also considering a Jayco North Point 382FLRB or a Jayco Pinnacle 38FBRK. But I don't think I'm buying ANYTHING until the RV industry as a whole can resolve the "frame flex" issue.
@@KeithR1250 There are some out there that don't use Lippert frames but they are in other states. Personally, buying any out of Indiana right now is sketchy, as far as I am concerned.
Thanks for the video! We have a video we will be dropping this weekend most likely that will have info on our Winnebago travato fire (total loss) that will definitely tie into all this.
This mess is appearing to be so bad that Lippert and trailer makers can't bare to contemplate how big this mess is. As an engineer occasionally during my career, I have cited the existential risk that non-robust design can subject a company (and end customers) to. It is always better to be that company where people say; "Their stuff is bullet proof." THAT gives the company pricing power so they don't have to live in the gutter with the bottom feeders.
@@WestsontheMove Good Morning Mr. West - I am not near Longmont, thought it sounds like a nicer place to live than my home state of California. Most likely you are thinking of another Pete Peterson. Some say there are too many of us.
Great video!! Thank you both for doing this!! When I first discovered our frame was starting to fail 1.4 years ago it was so infuriating and I felt like Grand Design/Lippert very much had the upper hand. Because of guys like you I feel Grand Design/Lippert are starting to listen, if not they soon will be.
It is the way Grand Design is handling this, let alone Lippert. No GDRV is not the only one but they are the only RV Assembler that is being as quiet about this as they are. Where is the world is Don Clark? You know the leader of the company.
Tom, have you spoken with HBRV. He has been an outspoken critic of GD and the horrible PR policies they are invoking. He is taking info on FF and has hard numbers on which RV's and model years that are having frame issues. Between you ,Pete and HBRV, I believe you can make a difference. Thanks for your time informing potential RV buyers on what is going on in the industry.
We decided our 2022 momentum 350 g didn’t have enough room so we traded it in. We do not feel grand design makes quality so we purchased a Brinkley. This will hopefully be our last one. Grand design does not stand behind their product and that is sad.
You should be not only reimbursed for your hotel, but travel expenses, and I also feel they should pay for your time lost for the 2-3 weeks that they have your unit. If their shop rate is say $125 as an example they should pay that at a minimum of 8 hours a day. Wear and tear on your tow vehicle, etc....
I’m not hearing what your endgame is with grand design and or lippert tom. I’m so glad I don’t own a GD. But as far as I’m concerned I wish everyone would stop complaining about GD and lippert and simply stop buying their products. Let’s just put them out of business and it’ll make way for trustworthy manufacturers.
We were considering getting a larger RV, possibly a Grand Design, to replace our small 24-26ish foot RV. Then hubby's cancer returned + covid hit the country. So we stayed put & decided to wait on a new RV. We're so so SO glad we did & also glad we don't have & didn't purchase a Grand Design (or any other) new RV. Glad you & Liz Amazing are covering this story. And maybe it's (past) time to bring this story to Mayor Pete as Secretary of Transportation & his department so they can start regulating RVs like they do vehicles & begin forcing RV manufacturers to start issuing safety recall notices - immediately, for safety of the RV owners & for safety of other drivers out there on the roads.🙏🏼.
We have a 19 momentum 376th and have no signs of frame failure yet I do not have a Facebook page but wife does send me link to the Facebook page and I will have her join your page for Frame failure to stay informed and help our gd family
10 minutes into video I'm not sure what you are alluding too? Is it that Brinkley is going to have the same frame failure issue or is it something else. Sorry, I don't want to muddy the waters, but I would like clarification. Thanks
I'm 25 minutes in and I don't know what they are talking about. It's like we are given a portion of a conversation where most of what they have talked about is given some context later in the video we did not see
It’s amazing to me how many major you tube channels that had grand design RVs ! That don’t today they moved on !! Don’t say anything!,! Got a new rv. Not a grand design…. That says a lot !
This has been a know issue since Winnebago (WGO) bought Grand Design. The reserves for warranties have been a critical issue according to their accountants in the 10-K SEC filing for nearly every year. Each year the auditors state an issue of under-reserving of warranties and they specifically name Grand Design as the primary issue. There were a number of years where the dollar amount for warranties grew by 50% y/y. For WGO, it is a small enough number that I believe they’ve chosen to “slow play” the warranties knowing that for every one they address, hundreds or thousands fall out of warranty and they are indemnified. A really good lawyer should be able to turn this gross indifference into something. A similar thing is happening at Lippert (LCII)with warranty reserves, however their language in their 10k does not name or identify exactly who the issue is with. Their’s just says “certain products” with “certain manufacturers”…. However their warranty growth and reserves have similar growth percentage wise compared to WGO. While social media is powerful, the speed at which these problems are coming at these public companies let’s them take a “one at a time” approach and have little impact on their business other than reputational risk.
the adventure is you sitting along the side of the road with a rig with a broken frame and cant be towed.... and you facing even bigger bills to pay... enjoy😂😂😂🎉🎉🎉.
Very few others have had problems. Grand Design changed thier RV's and load and stress points without telling Lippert. The walls and bolts are seperating. This is 98% a GD disaster
Lippert builds to GD cad or specs, once it leaves lippert its up to the manufacturers to not "over build" on that frame....example , jayco's frames and rigs are heavy and for good reason, no frame flex/failure....
@@GolfMissouri Then why hasnt other manafacutures having the same problems? One here and there, but not at the rate of GD. I agree Lippert didnt do a great job on it weilds. But once again. Where are the rest of the Failures?
Thank you for correcting the labels. Lippert is the manufacturer and GD, or whoever is just the builder. Just like cars in 1900. They did not build the body of the cars, just the frame and drivetrain.
After researching every single brand there is not a single unit with a proper frame. So I decided to update and refurb my 2011 trailer that was already fixed with 2000 pounds of steel. Lippert is horrible, and it is not just frames.
@@SecondGenClassics if you follow Brinkley you'd know. Nate Goldenberg even addressed the issue on a youtube video. They use Lippert, do some research you'll see all kinds of info about that very same question being answered. Very few manufacturers make their own frames.
Yea no, they use Lippert, I sent an email to them August 2023 about it and they confirmed, so I’m waiting 5 years to see if they have frame issues before purchasing.
Doesn’t matter it was a “ cease and desist” order. They are a billion dollar company threatening a gag order on one little lady. What happened to the first amendment? They fear her. If they didn’t there would be no order.
It is about Lippert and the informant.. They r a Billion $ company and they r bulling Liz and this informant should come forward, but I’m sure he/she are terrified…. Think about it.
It’s all about trying to keep the weight down. Beefier frame more weight. If you put a fastener in every hole more weight. Someone who signed a NDA is now talking, he is not happy.
How about digging into this one. Grand design introduces their influence line adds $20,000 to the price of the floorplan from similar solitude models, and is that what’s being used to pay for the frame failures of others? Why anyone in their right mind would shill for them or buy a grand design RV at this point is absolutely the definition of a bad decision.
Hey everyone, Micah, one of our 5 owners commented on the podcast that was posted and removed with allegations of us selling. Below was his response. Hello this is Micah Staley, one of the five owners at Brinkley. I'm here to tell you this is ABSOLUTELY not true. I can speak for myself and the four other owners. Thank you.
This is my take on the entire situation, Grand Design sold everyone on their brand being Full-time capable and the masses fell for it including me. So you have a majority of full time RV'ers that travel in their fifth wheel full time and are finding out that they just aren't built to handle that kind of abuse. The people who claim that they have no issues are either stationary, part time or weekend warriors. That or they just don't realize that they have problems but haven't put two and two together. I've had our unit repaired in Elkhart, the crack came back in less that 500 miles. It's currently back in Elkhart awaiting repairs. It's unfortunate that Grand Design isn't coming to the forefront and owning up to the failures. It took me over 2 years and 5K to get Grand Design to finally address my problem, we really enjoy our RV and we travel extensively in it. Don't think I would buy another one.
When you say Winnebago you said a mouthful. They have had a lot of roof failures on their motorhomes. Not a fan of anything that has Winnebago on the label.
You're better off using the heck out of it now, your structural warranty isn't up until 2026, my 2022 380FL only had 7,000 towed miles on it when I discovered the issue. Better to find out now while you have warranty then to not use it and discover the issue out of warranty.
Of course the problem with these trailers can't possibly come from them being overloaded and driven 60-70 mph when on a road that should be driven 40mph max if at all. I see this happen all the time on roads along the west coast of Washington. Too, many people pulling these rigs have no regard
You know, people can say what they want about class C and A motorized rv's, but I'd go with those ANYDAY over any kind of trailer. I've owned both, and there is a world of maintenance differences. The motorized coaches haven't given me even half the problems that trailers have. But regardless, the entire industry SERIOUSLY needs some federal oversight. Cars, planes, houses, and almost all other consumer products have it. This is getting ridiculous, all the issues popping up with ALL new rv's.
Question. Does Grand Design make their own frames? I was under the impression that, "Most", frames were made by only a handful of companies. So the question, is Grand Design the only comp. That has issues? Seems like that would be strange.
I used to work at the Lippert rv chassis plant in south Elkhart, some years back. Their main problem was a 90% illegal alien workforce that could care less about quality welding. They couldn't even use the bathrooms correctly. The RV assembly plants (I worked at several) sped through the work and had a lot of weed smokers. It's surprising that every unit ever made isn't a service call within weeks of being sold.
Grand Design and other companies may be thinking that the people may be overloading their trailers and they drive them off road and bounce them up and down on those unpaved roads in the wilderness. Have to be sure the customer owners haven't csused those things to happen. Some people buy them and drive to their trailer park or homesite and park them for life. Then they brace the slide when open so it can't sag over time and even put on the siding and leave them open all enclosed. Perhaps they aren't meant to be on the road with the road warriors..???!!!
I realized 14 and a half minutes in this content was all gossip and commercials to boost your view hours and monetization. i put you in the same category as Lippert, Winnebago, Forest River, Thor and Grand Design as RV owner predators with a fake smile and shady agenda.
Recycled steel has little to nothing to do with the issue with these frames. It's a problem with engineering and fabrication. Steel whether virgin or recycled is produced to certain chemistries and yield strengths
That Internet is not that good unless you’re in town or got cell phone coverage it’s a joke. Starlink is the best cause it works good no matter where you’re at.
Lippert receives the frame orders and specs from each the manufacturer. So this is mostly on the RV builder. Lippert does have their part of blame as well
You may well be right. Forensic engineering would compare the failed welds, to see if they were bad welds, or the wrong alloy sticks/wire were used. Or if the metals and work test out to spec. That's not a lot of work, welding failures are routinely investigated for many reasons. If the work and materials ARE both to spec, then Lippert is clear and the question is if Grand Design spec'd the frame too lightly, or if the owners are overloading the rigs. I have a friend who broke the resr suspension on his Honda, because he picked up too many 25# bags of garden rocks one day. And I dented the ROOF of my car once, not knowing that 8 pieces of sheetrock was too much load on the roof. But the way everyone is behaving, instead of doing an objective analysis, is really going to unimpress a judge one day.
Nothing wrong with recycled metal. It is the process and that is added at the mill. It is either an engineering issue or by the manufacturer or there is a welding defect at by the frame manufacturer. .
They not Just grand design but all these manufacturers having frame flex frame failure issues need to be forced by the federal government to make this right and make them safe! Not just for the RV owners but for the general public safety period!!!... An owner may not know they are having frame flex or that the rig was manufactured and assembled with weaker steel poor or bad weld the wrong size and even totally missing lag screws and it could cause someone else whom isn't even an RV owner or Rv family member serious injury and possibly even death!!!... The NTSA makes sure cars and trucks and Semis and Motorhomes all pass to a certain quality from manufacturers for a reason Public Safety It's high time our Government step in and makes All Towables also conform to true and stringent safety standard, and not just towable Rvs but utility and cargo trailers boat trailers etc all the way through the towable or towed industry
I have no vested interest in this directly but I do own a 5th wheel from another manufacturer without an issue.. do you realize that Grand Design is the manufacturer not Lippert. Lippert is a subcontractor who build frames to Grand Design specs… if the specs are not correct then the company who created the spec is responsible not the company that built to the spec. Until you have a certified welding inspector inspect and X-ray the weld you don’t know if it’s good or bad… sloppy welds don’t mean they are not good enough… or don’t have strength.. I’ve seen beautiful welds break apart under load and sloppy welds hold. Not saying there are not issues.. just saying you maybe throwing stones at the wrong house…maybe not… but this is clickbait..
Actually, Lippert manufacturers these products. Grand Design assembles these products that Lippert actually creates/manufactures. Yes, they are apparently to Grand Design specs which the blame for these frames are on Grand Design. I never said they weren't. But remember this though. When there are bad welds and many of us have seen them, that is on Lippert directly! Sounds like you are trying to defend poor quality. -Pete
There are two possibilities with Lippert. First when they say "to manufacturer specs" do they mean the manufacturer provided engineered prints or did the manufacturers provide specs on size and weight and Lippert did the engineering? We don't really know the answer to that question. The second possibility, regardless of who did the engineering, is quality control -- do the products as built meet the requirements as designed? That part would be on Lippert either way.
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I’d expect a cease and desist from GD, Lippert, Winnie, or a combo of any. They’re bullies. They have no legal standing with their bullying… it’s all bravado. I will NEVER buy a GD product or any RV with a Lippert frame. EVER.
Why why why do potential or existing RVERS continue to purchase these 5th wheels?? Especially those using Lippert frames. Have to say this, " more money than commonsense!" Yet dealers continue to sell them! So bottom line its all about $$$$$$
You would be surprised how many people do zero research before buying an rv, buy without an inspector, and buy without a negotiator to remove bs fees they’re loading the price with. What blows my mind is all the people resigned that if you want to RV this is normal and expected, that you will spend your rv life fixing repairs, and if you don’t want to drown in repairs, RV life isn’t for you. No, we don’t have to accept that level of construction.
@@WinePunk you literally do if you want an RV. If you have a solution that provides an RV without that, please enlighten us? or is it the tired old, boycot them until they get the message? Because if it is, that isnt meeting the criteria youve laid out (Ie no RV)
@@boyeatsworld-vr9ciminor stuff, maintenance, like a house you should have to do, that’s normal. But RV’ers being trained to believe that huge failures in builds are normal and they should accept it as part as normal rv life. No, that’s not normal life, demand better builds.
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Did you see Liz Amazing, got a cease and assists notice from Lippert. To stop her research, and interviews with clients. They told her she needed to take down her videos. I’m thinking that the manufacturers are trying not to listen. We all need to call them out! Maybe the feds can get involved and regulate the industry standards. Keep up the great investigations. Love the videos.
O my ,the last thing we need is the Feds creating more regulations
@@ahson2465federal regulations would result in them building to a required minimum spec. Same as airline regulations, car regulations, building regulations, if there were regulations on minimum engineering this wouldn’t be an issue. Unfortunately companies rarely do the right thing or fix known problems resulting in killing people over profits.
Yes, this industry needs federal regulation for sure.
Hi Everyone, This is Nate Goldenberg one of the owners of Brinkley. I'm not sure anyone will see this, but I have to comment based on what was said here. Brinkley is not being sold to Winnebago or anyone else. There's never even been a conversation about it, and there's no one in our ownership group who wants to sell. We have zero interest. This is not a real thing; it's a rumor started by Forest River. Our competitors pray every night we will sell, but we're not going to. In 10, 15, 20 years, maybe it's a different story, but not today or anything soon. What's probably more likely is we get the next generation involved and keep it in the family. There are 13 kids between the owners. I'm sure someone will have some interest. Part of what makes Brinkley strong is being private and not having outside influences.
So, there you have it for anyone online claiming to spread the truth. I hope you can talk about this too! It's from a pretty good source. All the best!
Thank you for commenting - we just purchased a 3500 G and we don’t want to have customer service like grand design.
I think we do need an RV owners association so we can speak as one voice. I think tens of thousands of RVers would join it. RV industry would no longer be able to just ignore us as individuals but something this big could not be ignored.
I’m sitting here at the Elkhart fairgrounds with my appointment for frame flex on my rig tomorrow morning. I drove 2200 miles to get here.
We are here at Elkhart Campground ourselves waiting for our April 22nd drop off.
Hello neighbor.
Best wishes on your repairs!!
Good luck
@@WestsontheMove didn’t see your rig.
We own a 2020 Forest River Impression MPF34MID. Bought it used and haven't slept in it one night. Been dealing with frame failure and frame camber (sag) since we bought it. We were quoted $24,000 to have it repaired and the trailer is not worth it. We have contacted NHTSA and Transport Canada but not enough cases have shown up in Canada for them to deal with it. Glad to see something is happening and we are not alone. Good luck everyone and keep making waves!!
How far are you from Elkhart, Indiana? I bet if you called them now, they may reconsider repairing your rig. Make sure they also reimburse you for any lodging you may need.
Putting a 3/8 bolt in a 1/2” hole is just asking for problems. The ability of movement across 8-10 holes with 5 to 10 tons of inertia of starting and stopping and then add the fact that they are not even utilizing all the holes available is criminal. The fact that there is no government agency to check this across the RV industry is scary.
Glad you guys are reporting about the frame failures. Liz Amazing just released her video reporting manufacturer legal pressure exerted on her for reporting frame failures.
I saw that. She got a cease and desist letter from Lippert after she had a live call with Tiffin.
@@lanagraham4587 Actually, I think it was over her inside source at Lippert. -Pete West
They are clearly threatening her. When multi billion dollar companies threaten one little lady with legal action, they are afraid. But it’s too late we all know now.
I see a big class action lawsuit coming. This could put them in receivership. They knew of the flaws for a long time and didn’t try to change the engineering. Same goes with Grand Design.
@@WestsontheMove it was, she was told not to use a person to describe something without naming names or supplying proof. Standard legal 101. its ok for the couples who say thier frame is broken, no third party
I don’t have an RV however I have been following the posts about GD frame issues for awhile now And I find it amazing that these issues are being ignored…and these folks that pay 100K for these rigs are getting screwed what is going to happen when someone is injured or Killed because a frame fails out on the Highway
Thank you guys for addressing this issue. I am really disappointed in GD at this time in the way they are not adequately responding to their frame problems. I’ve had two GD units with no major problems but I expect them to take care of family. This has caused me to reconsider getting another GD this summer. I’m waiting and watching for their response.
Give serious thought to Alliance. They offer independent suspension on their bigger rigs. Brinkley does not. Deal breaker for me.
If Winnebago buys Brinkley then I am crossing Brinkley off my list of future purchases. They ruined Grand Design (change my mind) and they will ruin Brinkley.
Brinkley said that was a rumor. But I’m with you. Brinkley was the last option for me to have an RV life.
I would not go with Brinkley any longer because they don’t offer independent suspension on their rigs but Alliance does. This means they are in Dexters pockets with their new leaf spring suspension. Toured both companies this week.
I was at a Grand Design rally years back, and heard Don Clark, President of Grand Design tell us that Grand Design was not for sale and rumors of being bought out by Winnebago were 100% false. Three months later GD was bought out by Winnebago. So any denials being said by any RV company cannot be believed.
@@TheMinnow101 And Don Clark continues to be a liar! Where is he during all this frame failure?
Hi ScottVanArtsdalen, This is Nate Goldenberg, one of the owners of Brinkley. I can tell you 100% we're not selling to Winnebago. Our company is not for sale nor has there ever even been a conversation with them. This rumor was started by Forest River and was broadcast by HBRV in the name of truth BUT there's literally Zero truth to it!
Pete - For everyone's sake, especially the consumers, let's stop the rumor. It's just confusing people.
It is not only Grand Design, my rig was returned to the factory and the frame bias as they called it was repaired. Then I put Morryde IS and disk brakes and it seamed ok for now.
You needed the I.S. before you got the frame failure, for sure but we got it (MORryde I.S.) 4 months from purchase of our Momentum 395ms-r and we have early stages of frame failure even with it. Sitting here waiting for a 4/22/24 drop off to Grand Design. Plain and simple, Grand Design cut major corners for their bottom line…money!
See Liz Amazing for the full story on Lippert chassis flawed design.
Mine no good
Thank you for covering this issue!!!
Thank you for the very informative discussion! Hopefully problems with these frame failures will be fixed!
I had some contact with another GD owner with a serious problem with frame flex/failure and questioned the weight of his rig, curious about the loading more than anything. He replied that it came to question to him and since he had someone that wanted his RV, as is, he totally unloaded it including the washer and dryer that he had installed. It was totally empty as would have come from the manufacturer and it scaled about 17,450 which is approximately 1200# above the sticker weight. This would leave very little to be able to load before being over max weight. This would indicate that GD overloaded the design and probably the frame design also. This is something to seriously consider and to check.
Love this post!
My question would be, if Grand design has the ability of camp sights right on campus...why couldn't they put the folks up in an RV right on campus as there units are getting repaired???
The could park their rig at the site but owners typically have to completely move out while the rig is being repaired. If I remember correctly.
i delivered 2 Grand Design toy haulers and both failed picked up at factory new and delivered in 5k miles to dealer and both failed .. in 2 different ways then were trying to make me claim them saying i damaged them in a accident .. after proving it with my video logs ... i never went back to company again to deliver there junk again .... i know its not Lippert's fault .. lippert build them to there designs but when Grand Design doesn't tell lippert of changes to frame to do reconstruction on trailer so they can save money ..lippert get blamed for failures when i asked the company when was the last time you do full road tests on your new designed trailers ,, he said they dont ... its been about 9 designs ago that 9 yrs
Thank you, thank you for posting this! Pete West
Grand design = Grand deception. So glad this all got brought to light prior to my purchase of a rv. I'll never buy anything from grand design.
I’d like to get the independent suspension but I’m told that it’s a one year waitlist. They need more capacity.
An NDA is the normal to make sure you have no idea how good a deal someone else got. So they can try to pay as little as they can to whoever they can't shut up.
If frame failure is 1/2 or 1% why isn’t Grand Design taking care of it. If the percentage is small, then the repair should be very manageable.
Exactly
We had someone in the Grand Design RV Major Issues FB site do the math on that for 1-year. If you use use their stat of “less than 1/2 of 1% it comes out to 1800 Grand Design 5th wheels, using their statistics. Even that is too many per year, let alone the numbers we are starting to see from a percentage stand point. Someone is trying to downplay how big this problem really is for them.
"Frame Flex" has prevented me from purchasing a new toy hauler at the Monroe RV show. My question is, how many other of the "top tier" fifth wheel brands are affected by this? I want a toy hauler. Momentum 399th (or 376th) WAS top of the list. Also considering a Jayco North Point 382FLRB or a Jayco Pinnacle 38FBRK. But I don't think I'm buying ANYTHING until the RV industry as a whole can resolve the "frame flex" issue.
This problem is across most RV manufacturers using Lippert frames. It’s just not GD.
@@GolfMissouri what RVs don't use Lippert frames?
@@KeithR1250 not many. Google it.
@@KeithR1250 There are some out there that don't use Lippert frames but they are in other states. Personally, buying any out of Indiana right now is sketchy, as far as I am concerned.
@@WestsontheMove We are in the market for a nice Toy Hauler. What brand does not use Lippert frames?
Thanks for the video! We have a video we will be dropping this weekend most likely that will have info on our Winnebago travato fire (total loss) that will definitely tie into all this.
This mess is appearing to be so bad that Lippert and trailer makers can't bare to contemplate how big this mess is.
As an engineer occasionally during my career, I have cited the existential risk that non-robust design can subject a company (and end customers) to.
It is always better to be that company where people say; "Their stuff is bullet proof." THAT gives the company pricing power so they don't have to live in the gutter with the bottom feeders.
Pete, are you out of Longmont area? If you are, you will no what this means (NoCAR).
@@WestsontheMove Good Morning Mr. West - I am not near Longmont, thought it sounds like a nicer place to live than my home state of California.
Most likely you are thinking of another Pete Peterson. Some say there are too many of us.
Yes, I was thinking of someone else.
Great video!! Thank you both for doing this!! When I first discovered our frame was starting to fail 1.4 years ago it was so infuriating and I felt like Grand Design/Lippert very much had the upper hand. Because of guys like you I feel Grand Design/Lippert are starting to listen, if not they soon will be.
I don't believe it's just Grand Design.I have an Alpine trying to get it looked at
It is the way Grand Design is handling this, let alone Lippert. No GDRV is not the only one but they are the only RV Assembler that is being as quiet about this as they are. Where is the world is Don Clark? You know the leader of the company.
Look at paving new paths !! They bought a rv that was only 9 months old. ! A second owner has no warranty!! On anything…
Tom, have you spoken with HBRV. He has been an outspoken critic of GD and the horrible PR policies they are invoking. He is taking info on FF and has hard numbers on which RV's and model years that are having frame issues. Between you ,Pete and HBRV, I believe you can make a difference. Thanks for your time informing potential RV buyers on what is going on in the industry.
This is a Grand Design engineering problem. They send the frame specs to Lippert and those specs call for the wrong frame for the trailer
There's a whole lot of shaking going on.... Goodness gracious Great balls of fire....😮
I hope that they do something as confident is getting lower with this. Good luck to all, and I hope for a good result from this situation.
Huh?!?
We decided our 2022 momentum 350 g didn’t have enough room so we traded it in. We do not feel grand design makes quality so we purchased a Brinkley. This will hopefully be our last one. Grand design does not stand behind their product and that is sad.
If you own one of these RVS like I did. Trade it in for a Brinkley before your RV loses all it value.. Brinkley made me a great deal... Move fast....
You should be not only reimbursed for your hotel, but travel expenses, and I also feel they should pay for your time lost for the 2-3 weeks that they have your unit. If their shop rate is say $125 as an example they should pay that at a minimum of 8 hours a day. Wear and tear on your tow vehicle, etc....
Anyone know what years we are talking about ..How can we identify the concerned units
Any year way way back with a Lippert Frame. Any brand or model.
If I remember correctly, some of the RAM Diesels had issues. I would talk to a mechanic before buying
How is it that Changing Lanes Rv has never experienced these issues?
I’m not hearing what your endgame is with grand design and or lippert tom. I’m so glad I don’t own a GD. But as far as I’m concerned I wish everyone would stop complaining about GD and lippert and simply stop buying their products. Let’s just put them out of business and it’ll make way for trustworthy manufacturers.
We were considering getting a larger RV, possibly a Grand Design, to replace our small 24-26ish foot RV. Then hubby's cancer returned + covid hit the country. So we stayed put & decided to wait on a new RV. We're so so SO glad we did & also glad we don't have & didn't purchase a Grand Design (or any other) new RV. Glad you & Liz Amazing are covering this story. And maybe it's (past) time to bring this story to Mayor Pete as Secretary of Transportation & his department so they can start regulating RVs like they do vehicles & begin forcing RV manufacturers to start issuing safety recall notices - immediately, for safety of the RV owners & for safety of other drivers out there on the roads.🙏🏼.
We have a 19 momentum 376th and have no signs of frame failure yet
I do not have a Facebook page but wife does send me link to the Facebook page and I will have her join your page for Frame failure to stay informed and help our gd family
10 minutes into video I'm not sure what you are alluding too? Is it that Brinkley is going to have the same frame failure issue or is it something else. Sorry, I don't want to muddy the waters, but I would like clarification. Thanks
We don’t have any more info on that, but will update when and if we get it.
I'm 25 minutes in and I don't know what they are talking about. It's like we are given a portion of a conversation where most of what they have talked about is given some context later in the video we did not see
This is so sad 😢
It’s amazing to me how many major you tube channels that had grand design RVs ! That don’t today they moved on !! Don’t say anything!,! Got a new rv. Not a grand design…. That says a lot !
This has been a know issue since Winnebago (WGO) bought Grand Design. The reserves for warranties have been a critical issue according to their accountants in the 10-K SEC filing for nearly every year. Each year the auditors state an issue of under-reserving of warranties and they specifically name Grand Design as the primary issue. There were a number of years where the dollar amount for warranties grew by 50% y/y. For WGO, it is a small enough number that I believe they’ve chosen to “slow play” the warranties knowing that for every one they address, hundreds or thousands fall out of warranty and they are indemnified. A really good lawyer should be able to turn this gross indifference into something. A similar thing is happening at Lippert (LCII)with warranty reserves, however their language in their 10k does not name or identify exactly who the issue is with. Their’s just says “certain products” with “certain manufacturers”…. However their warranty growth and reserves have similar growth percentage wise compared to WGO. While social media is powerful, the speed at which these problems are coming at these public companies let’s them take a “one at a time” approach and have little impact on their business other than reputational risk.
Kinda tired hearing about this frame flex. Waiting for some adventures.
the adventure is you sitting along the side of the road with a rig with a broken frame and cant be towed.... and you facing even bigger bills to pay... enjoy😂😂😂🎉🎉🎉.
Make your own channel then. His channel, his content.
Those of us going through this want to hear more about it. We didn’t sign up for this adventures.
@@WinePunk Couldn't have said it better!
Northwoods RV and outdoors RV build their own frames in house. And they are stout.
Its not just Grand Disaster its all the ones using the Lippert frames on their RVs That were built using thin steel and welded by amateurs
Very few others have had problems. Grand Design changed thier RV's and load and stress points without telling Lippert. The walls and bolts are seperating. This is 98% a GD disaster
Lippert builds to GD cad or specs, once it leaves lippert its up to the manufacturers to not "over build" on that frame....example , jayco's frames and rigs are heavy and for good reason, no frame flex/failure....
Not true. Lippert is to blame..
@@GolfMissouri Then why hasnt other manafacutures having the same problems? One here and there, but not at the rate of GD. I agree Lippert didnt do a great job on it weilds. But once again. Where are the rest of the Failures?
@@dougwilliams3276 like GD has paid off Some owners, other companies seem to be smarter than GD and are keeping them quiet with their buy back.
Thank you for correcting the labels. Lippert is the manufacturer and GD, or whoever is just the builder. Just like cars in 1900. They did not build the body of the cars, just the frame and drivetrain.
After researching every single brand there is not a single unit with a proper frame. So I decided to update and refurb my 2011 trailer that was already fixed with 2000 pounds of steel. Lippert is horrible, and it is not just frames.
why can I NOT find his Group ( GRAND DESIGN RY MAJOR ISSUES ) on You Tube?
It’s on Facebook
Facebook
My site is on Facebook, not TH-cam. -Pete
i delivered for Brinkley rv they make there own frames everything is in house never had issues very well built imo
They don't, Lippert makes their frames. The difference is in HOW it's made in conjunction with Brinkley's specs.
@@CruizinWithTheCarsons since when
@@SecondGenClassics if you follow Brinkley you'd know. Nate Goldenberg even addressed the issue on a youtube video. They use Lippert, do some research you'll see all kinds of info about that very same question being answered. Very few manufacturers make their own frames.
@@CruizinWithTheCarsons they use to 7 yrs ago
Yea no, they use Lippert, I sent an email to them August 2023 about it and they confirmed, so I’m waiting 5 years to see if they have frame issues before purchasing.
I watched Liz Amazing too, and I’m not an RV wannabe anymore. Good luck to everyone. I hope things work(ed) out.
Thanks for being on Pete :)
Wow, 24k views! Our Grand Design RV Major Issues site is almost at 4k members now.
Liz Amazing got a letter to take her video's down about the frames on their trailers ASAP or
Just watched that vid.
Her letter is not about frame faulure. If you read the letters she put on her video, it’s over the “INFORMANT”
Doesn’t matter it was a “ cease and desist” order. They are a billion dollar company threatening a gag order on one little lady. What happened to the first amendment? They fear her. If they didn’t there would be no order.
It is about Lippert and the informant.. They r a Billion $ company and they r bulling Liz and this informant should come forward, but I’m sure he/she are terrified…. Think about it.
It’s all about trying to keep the weight down. Beefier frame more weight. If you put a fastener in every hole more weight. Someone who signed a NDA is now talking, he is not happy.
Rv industry needs to be regulated. Look at the contract they have you sign. It basically takes your rights away
I read that taking consumer rights away in Australia is illegal.
How about digging into this one. Grand design introduces their influence line adds $20,000 to the price of the floorplan from similar solitude models, and is that what’s being used to pay for the frame failures of others? Why anyone in their right mind would shill for them or buy a grand design RV at this point is absolutely the definition of a bad decision.
Hey everyone, Micah, one of our 5 owners commented on the podcast that was posted and removed with allegations of us selling. Below was his response. Hello this is Micah Staley, one of the five owners at Brinkley. I'm here to tell you this is ABSOLUTELY not true. I can speak for myself and the four other owners. Thank you.
Thanks for the clarification guys!
I have a response to Micah’s response from Brinkley. Be the hero here, step up to help these poor grand design owners.
It is fortunate that no one seems to have been physically hurt. Tangentially, unfortunate because the NHTSA would get more involved.
Follow the money.
This is my take on the entire situation, Grand Design sold everyone on their brand being Full-time capable and the masses fell for it including me. So you have a majority of full time RV'ers that travel in their fifth wheel full time and are finding out that they just aren't built to handle that kind of abuse. The people who claim that they have no issues are either stationary, part time or weekend warriors.
That or they just don't realize that they have problems but haven't put two and two together.
I've had our unit repaired in Elkhart, the crack came back in less that 500 miles. It's currently back in Elkhart awaiting repairs.
It's unfortunate that Grand Design isn't coming to the forefront and owning up to the failures. It took me over 2 years and 5K to get Grand Design to finally address my problem, we really enjoy our RV and we travel extensively in it. Don't think I would buy another one.
When you say Winnebago you said a mouthful. They have had a lot of roof failures on their motorhomes. Not a fan of anything that has Winnebago on the label.
I looked for the Facebook page but it doesn’t show up
I have a 2023 Grand Design Solitude that does not yet have frame failure. But I am not going to lie we are afraid to tow it for fear of frame failing!
You're better off using the heck out of it now, your structural warranty isn't up until 2026, my 2022 380FL only had 7,000 towed miles on it when I discovered the issue. Better to find out now while you have warranty then to not use it and discover the issue out of warranty.
Of course the problem with these trailers can't possibly come from them being overloaded and driven 60-70 mph when on a road that should be driven 40mph max if at all. I see this happen all the time on roads along the west coast of Washington. Too, many people pulling these rigs have no regard
You know, people can say what they want about class C and A motorized rv's, but I'd go with those ANYDAY over any kind of trailer. I've owned both, and there is a world of maintenance differences. The motorized coaches haven't given me even half the problems that trailers have. But regardless, the entire industry SERIOUSLY needs some federal oversight. Cars, planes, houses, and almost all other consumer products have it. This is getting ridiculous, all the issues popping up with ALL new rv's.
Question. Does Grand Design make their own frames? I was under the impression that, "Most", frames were made by only a handful of companies. So the question, is Grand Design the only comp. That has issues? Seems like that would be strange.
Well I wonder how much the value of my Grand Design is now, my guess not much!
Rvs depreciate a lot the minute you pull off the lot. That is the reason some banks will not do RV loans.
It seems GrandDesign is more interested in investing in a bigger broom and a bigger rug.
I used to work at the Lippert rv chassis plant in south Elkhart, some years back. Their main problem was a 90% illegal alien workforce that could care less about quality welding. They couldn't even use the bathrooms correctly.
The RV assembly plants (I worked at several) sped through the work and had a lot of weed smokers.
It's surprising that every unit ever made isn't a service call within weeks of being sold.
Rv life is stressful……..looking for another retirement vehicle.
Winabago needs to pick up the rv’s & take them back to the factory for service not the owner
Is this onlyaffecting 5th wheels? I have a 29G toy hauler on order 😢
Did you see Greg’s ( cruzin with the Carson’s) last post (I know you did Paul )
Be careful what you say about the leopard frames Liz amazing had a cease and desist order
Is there a way to reach the Wests without Facebook?
Grand Design and other companies may be thinking that the people may be overloading their trailers and they drive them off road and bounce them up and down on those unpaved roads in the wilderness. Have to be sure the customer owners haven't csused those things to happen. Some people buy them and drive to their trailer park or homesite and park them for life. Then they brace the slide when open so it can't sag over time and even put on the siding and leave them open all enclosed. Perhaps they aren't meant to be on the road with the road warriors..???!!!
I realized 14 and a half minutes in this content was all gossip and commercials to boost your view hours and monetization.
i put you in the same category as Lippert, Winnebago, Forest River, Thor and Grand Design as RV owner predators with a fake smile and shady agenda.
I wonder if all the manufacturer's are using recycled steel?
Recycled steel has little to nothing to do with the issue with these frames. It's a problem with engineering and fabrication. Steel whether virgin or recycled is produced to certain chemistries and yield strengths
That Internet is not that good unless you’re in town or got cell phone coverage it’s a joke. Starlink is the best cause it works good no matter where you’re at.
Lippert receives the frame orders and specs from each the manufacturer. So this is mostly on the RV builder. Lippert does have their part of blame as well
Well this one guy in the video says they are using recycled metal... Not sure how Lippert will respond to that claim.
You may well be right. Forensic engineering would compare the failed welds, to see if they were bad welds, or the wrong alloy sticks/wire were used. Or if the metals and work test out to spec.
That's not a lot of work, welding failures are routinely investigated for many reasons.
If the work and materials ARE both to spec, then Lippert is clear and the question is if Grand Design spec'd the frame too lightly, or if the owners are overloading the rigs. I have a friend who broke the resr suspension on his Honda, because he picked up too many 25# bags of garden rocks one day. And I dented the ROOF of my car once, not knowing that 8 pieces of sheetrock was too much load on the roof.
But the way everyone is behaving, instead of doing an objective analysis, is really going to unimpress a judge one day.
Nothing wrong with recycled metal. It is the process and that is added at the mill. It is either an engineering issue or by the manufacturer or there is a welding defect at by the frame manufacturer. .
They will end up squeezing Brinkley for every dollar, everything will be an optional
NHTSA anyone? Curious what Grand Design will be named after the re-branding after all this?
Grand Design is going to take a major hit on sales due to this. The new GDs are junk. Lipstick on a pig.
The numbers would be way higher if most of the RVs where actually used 6 months out of the year !! Most RVs get towed a month a year !
Willful negligence. GD will file bankruptcy when this lawsuit goes thru.
Your just now figuring out that they spend millions on lobbyists?? Live under a rock? Ive known this from the 70s so your late to the game,!!
They not Just grand design but all these manufacturers having frame flex frame failure issues need to be forced by the federal government to make this right and make them safe! Not just for the RV owners but for the general public safety period!!!...
An owner may not know they are having frame flex or that the rig was manufactured and assembled with weaker steel poor or bad weld the wrong size and even totally missing lag screws and it could cause someone else whom isn't even an RV owner or Rv family member serious injury and possibly even death!!!...
The NTSA makes sure cars and trucks and Semis and Motorhomes all pass to a certain quality from manufacturers for a reason
Public Safety
It's high time our Government step in and makes All Towables also conform to true and stringent safety standard, and not just towable Rvs but utility and cargo trailers boat trailers etc all the way through the towable or towed industry
I know some got paid more than they paid for their rv to not say anything!
I cant believe the mess GD created by telling customers to go screw
I have no vested interest in this directly but I do own a 5th wheel from another manufacturer without an issue.. do you realize that Grand Design is the manufacturer not Lippert. Lippert is a subcontractor who build frames to Grand Design specs… if the specs are not correct then the company who created the spec is responsible not the company that built to the spec. Until you have a certified welding inspector inspect and X-ray the weld you don’t know if it’s good or bad… sloppy welds don’t mean they are not good enough… or don’t have strength.. I’ve seen beautiful welds break apart under load and sloppy welds hold.
Not saying there are not issues.. just saying you maybe throwing stones at the wrong house…maybe not… but this is clickbait..
Actually, Lippert manufacturers these products. Grand Design assembles these products that Lippert actually creates/manufactures. Yes, they are apparently to Grand Design specs which the blame for these frames are on Grand Design. I never said they weren't. But remember this though. When there are bad welds and many of us have seen them, that is on Lippert directly! Sounds like you are trying to defend poor quality. -Pete
There are two possibilities with Lippert. First when they say "to manufacturer specs" do they mean the manufacturer provided engineered prints or did the manufacturers provide specs on size and weight and Lippert did the engineering? We don't really know the answer to that question. The second possibility, regardless of who did the engineering, is quality control -- do the products as built meet the requirements as designed? That part would be on Lippert either way.
Lippert only does chewing gum welds. Not worth a darn.
Tom what is Pete blog, thx
Pete - Wests On The Move www.youtube.com/@WestsontheMove
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Come join us, if you have or had a Grand Design RV with major issues, like frame failure but even more. Answer all three questions and rules.
I’d expect a cease and desist from GD, Lippert, Winnie, or a combo of any. They’re bullies. They have no legal standing with their bullying… it’s all bravado. I will NEVER buy a GD product or any RV with a Lippert frame. EVER.
Grand design advertising their rigs are a full time option!
Toms zoning out during this call….
where is the steel coming from dont kill me for asking is it from China and if it is where did they get it from .
Rumor has it they use recycled steel.
need bigger lawyers to class action - it will take many years to get money.. but it should cause them to stop making weak lame frames
Why why why do potential or existing RVERS continue to purchase these 5th wheels?? Especially those using Lippert frames. Have to say this, " more money than commonsense!"
Yet dealers continue to sell them! So bottom line its all about $$$$$$
May not have gotten enough press since people don't know about it. The company is demanding that people take down their video exposing the issue.
With videos like this, where they don't say anything but just a bunch of alluding to "somethjng" how can you blame them.
You would be surprised how many people do zero research before buying an rv, buy without an inspector, and buy without a negotiator to remove bs fees they’re loading the price with.
What blows my mind is all the people resigned that if you want to RV this is normal and expected, that you will spend your rv life fixing repairs, and if you don’t want to drown in repairs, RV life isn’t for you. No, we don’t have to accept that level of construction.
@@WinePunk you literally do if you want an RV. If you have a solution that provides an RV without that, please enlighten us? or is it the tired old, boycot them until they get the message? Because if it is, that isnt meeting the criteria youve laid out (Ie no RV)
@@boyeatsworld-vr9ciminor stuff, maintenance, like a house you should have to do, that’s normal. But RV’ers being trained to believe that huge failures in builds are normal and they should accept it as part as normal rv life. No, that’s not normal life, demand better builds.