Thank you for the incredible body of work you've granted us from the goodness of your heart. Such life-enriching videos will be treasured for many years to come. I myself opted out of college, but any chance to have been one of your students makes me question that decision. You can be assured I wouldn't have missed a class. An infinite (regress of) thanks.
What did Plato see of art and literature? Was his experience of it comparable to modern society's? Was he informed of science fiction, horror, comedy, musicals, cgi, pornography, comic books, self help? Was there horror in ancient Greece? Intimate, claustrophobic, horror or something more abstract? Was art and literature a specialized guild or an organic practice available to all? I suspect it was the former. Low art and high art or art of the masses and art of the elite. Plato's context for art must surely inform his view. One thing I agree with him on is "reference". When referring to anything there must be a one to one agreement. But just because two people can refer to the same thing, does that mean that they agree on what that thing means? All art and literature are like this. Because you have a recognition when I refer to "Gilligan's Island" does that mean we know each other? Maybe, but maybe not.
Thank you. Where do you think this leaves non-representational art? Is it more akin to music? Also what about the artist? Would Socrates, you think, have a problem with the making of art?
Good question! I was wondering about that-I don't think the possibility of that occurred to him. It's surprising, because Greek architecture is full of embellishments that are works of art but not representational. I think he viewed that as craftsmanship. In any case his objections are strictly to representational art.
Of course Plato didn't know this but human being have been making pictorial representations at least since drawing hunting scenes on cave walls which is before agricultural, written language, or organized politics. It rather seems like part of human nature. Is Plato's wish to prevent representations compatible with human nature?
Loved the lecture very informative I'd like to ask a couple of questions does this apply to science as well meaning is science also a representation of a representation because science and art aren't distinguishable if you look at them closely it's our bicameral mind that creates the false dichotomy? Secondly do you think the reason for the actors was for propaganda reasons meaning persuasion through agenda setting and framing theory? Thirdly why is Plato loved so much? don't get me wrong I like him too but I find his ideas outdated in some regards in the sense we living in a technocracy in the sense of technique like Jacques ellul mentioned in his book. Fourthly what will take art and literature place instead as a substitute/alternative?
@@getsmartquick I don't know anything about bicameral mind or Jacques Ellul. My take on Plato's disregard of art, is that it's based in an ideal, in that it is further from a perfect knowing than the other forms.. to me art is practical in that it is exploring reality, and every so often it produces a new perspective to reality or the higher forms
@@GNARGNARHEAD Thank you for exploring the references I mentioned oh I also checked out the anology of the sun it reminds me of gnosticism Hermeticism freemasonry etc was Plato part of them secret societies pondering existence and shit philosophical mathematical etc
Well, couldn't music too be seen as a representation of a representation when a symphony is merely just a composition of the greater potentiality of music? Just like with a painting, a song is only representing a condensed/one-sided part of music that doesn't tell the truth about the whole thing. And who's to say that it isn't the painting itself that decides what's true if it manages to capture what we see in the real world in a way that emotionally transcends the social conditioning of the people and connecting their perspectives?
I think he'd say that music doesn't represent objects; it evokes emotion. That's plausible for instrumental music, but what about vocal music, music with words? Doesn't much art, furthermore, evoke emotion and elicit highly refined emotions? I'm not a fan of his analysis here.
Most humans today can't reason well enough to freely guide their own lives without being told what to do. It's been that way for all of humanity. Aristotle and Plato were right.
@@jameseldridge3445 Actually, that's incorrect. Karl Marx, who read Plato, by the way, figured out the problem. Most people are slaves today simply because the Bourgeoisie want them to be like that because that's how they will get to live in comfort or luxury.
This is a great explanation
Thank you for the incredible body of work you've granted us from the goodness of your heart. Such life-enriching videos will be treasured for many years to come. I myself opted out of college, but any chance to have been one of your students makes me question that decision. You can be assured I wouldn't have missed a class.
An infinite (regress of) thanks.
Assuming that human civilization even survives until then. The world is effed up ...
Wonderful explanation, sir! Thank you.
Glad you're back! According to Sir Roger Scruton, photography is NOT a representational art. I'll publish a video on that soon.
Fascinating, cheers
Thanks for sharing the wisdom sir! Love the lectures!
Thanks for the video. I love your content! Any chance you could ever do a book tour?
I don't know-never thought of that!
There should be awesome youtuber tours.
very interesting talk ! any chance Hermeticism is coming up one day?
Thank you!
phew! music makes out out alive
What did Plato see of art and literature? Was his experience of it comparable to modern society's? Was he informed of science fiction, horror, comedy, musicals, cgi, pornography, comic books, self help? Was there horror in ancient Greece? Intimate, claustrophobic, horror or something more abstract? Was art and literature a specialized guild or an organic practice available to all? I suspect it was the former. Low art and high art or art of the masses and art of the elite. Plato's context for art must surely inform his view.
One thing I agree with him on is "reference". When referring to anything there must be a one to one agreement. But just because two people can refer to the same thing, does that mean that they agree on what that thing means? All art and literature are like this. Because you have a recognition when I refer to "Gilligan's Island" does that mean we know each other? Maybe, but maybe not.
Thank you. Where do you think this leaves non-representational art? Is it more akin to music? Also what about the artist? Would Socrates, you think, have a problem with the making of art?
Good question! I was wondering about that-I don't think the possibility of that occurred to him. It's surprising, because Greek architecture is full of embellishments that are works of art but not representational. I think he viewed that as craftsmanship. In any case his objections are strictly to representational art.
"Music is okay" Socrates
Of course Plato didn't know this but human being have been making pictorial representations at least since drawing hunting scenes on cave walls which is before agricultural, written language, or organized politics. It rather seems like part of human nature. Is Plato's wish to prevent representations compatible with human nature?
Loved the lecture very informative I'd like to ask a couple of questions does this apply to science as well meaning is science also a representation of a representation because science and art aren't distinguishable if you look at them closely it's our bicameral mind that creates the false dichotomy? Secondly do you think the reason for the actors was for propaganda reasons meaning persuasion through agenda setting and framing theory? Thirdly why is Plato loved so much? don't get me wrong I like him too but I find his ideas outdated in some regards in the sense we living in a technocracy in the sense of technique like Jacques ellul mentioned in his book. Fourthly what will take art and literature place instead as a substitute/alternative?
he had a line for how his divisions of Knowledge were structured, Simile of the Sun and The Divided Line, probably clear things up some
@@GNARGNARHEAD Ayt I'll check it out but what your thoughts I'd like to know on the above questions
@@getsmartquick I don't know anything about bicameral mind or Jacques Ellul. My take on Plato's disregard of art, is that it's based in an ideal, in that it is further from a perfect knowing than the other forms.. to me art is practical in that it is exploring reality, and every so often it produces a new perspective to reality or the higher forms
@@GNARGNARHEAD Thank you for exploring the references I mentioned oh I also checked out the anology of the sun it reminds me of gnosticism Hermeticism freemasonry etc was Plato part of them secret societies pondering existence and shit philosophical mathematical etc
@@getsmartquick I've no idea.. 🙂
Well, couldn't music too be seen as a representation of a representation when a symphony is merely just a composition of the greater potentiality of music? Just like with a painting, a song is only representing a condensed/one-sided part of music that doesn't tell the truth about the whole thing. And who's to say that it isn't the painting itself that decides what's true if it manages to capture what we see in the real world in a way that emotionally transcends the social conditioning of the people and connecting their perspectives?
I think he'd say that music doesn't represent objects; it evokes emotion. That's plausible for instrumental music, but what about vocal music, music with words? Doesn't much art, furthermore, evoke emotion and elicit highly refined emotions? I'm not a fan of his analysis here.
Plato was a fascist in today' s terms :)
A benevolent fascist !
Plato's was for slavery this make sense for him to have these views.
Aristoteles was a pro slavery ,too
Neither had electric motors, internal combustion engines, nor other prime movers. There was no other way to do work back then, except for animals.
@@rdhunkins Then you would happily be a slave if you lived back then :)
Most humans today can't reason well enough to freely guide their own lives without being told what to do. It's been that way for all of humanity. Aristotle and Plato were right.
@@jameseldridge3445 Actually, that's incorrect. Karl Marx, who read Plato, by the way, figured out the problem. Most people are slaves today simply because the Bourgeoisie want them to be like that because that's how they will get to live in comfort or luxury.