Plato, The Republic Book X on Art
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2024
- Dr. Ellie Anderson, philosophy professor and co-host of Overthink podcast, explains why Socrates argues for banishing poets and other imitative artists from the ideal city in Book X of Plato's Republic. How does this view relate to Plato's view of the soul and to television-watching today? Textbook is Aesthetics: A Comprehensive Anthology reader, ed. Cahn and Meskin (Blackwell, 2008).
This video is part of a series introducing philosophers' views of art and aesthetics.
For more from Dr. Anderson, check out Overthink on TH-cam, or listen to our conversational podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We've got numerous audio podcast episodes on the philosophy of art!
Loved this. Nice and crisp. Thanks!
Thank you for the amazing work. The synthesis of philosophy and practical reality is a field that needs to be created and I am glad that Dr. Anderson is on top of it.
-philosophy of Bordem
-sexuality and orgasm
-Art and its role in society and in everyday life
Your work is practical, straightforward, and easily digestible. It's
incredible.
Best,
OR
Wow, you touched on every point without excluding important details. Rarely do people do this when analyzing Socrates' critique of art. Great job.
as I barber for a living, I frequently get ideas about haircuts apart from looking at any particular head. then, I encounter a head with which I can try to do what I had imagined. the result though is never what I had thought, never looks like what I had imagined. invariably, I have to compromise my idea as I navigate the particular head of hair, it's wave pattern or the shape of the head (what I would have thought was reality). and the better results are the one's in which I've abandoned my idea and just took my cues from the head not from my ideas.
Such smart, insightful comments to Prof Ellie's gifted distillation of complex ideas that I'm reminded there are amazing people out there. And I'm glad to be reminded.
I found your podcast very useful for my students. I teach a class in intro to Philosophy and am one of the few (I think) who devote time to the Philosophy of Art. Very enjoyable.
This was an interesting video. I think that Plato's critique of art was right in recognizing elements of art at their worst but failed to consider the ways in which art can elevate and inspire the individual.
I love Socrates, Plato's Republic is the greatest book ever written.
Socrates was fascinated by the place of the good or where all answers come from,
I've come to understand that we all obtain these answers from the same place,
However Because there is a code to the universe (Fibonacci) I have found multiple applications in the same piece of art that the artist wasn't aware of whilst building it.
Beautiful explanation 😊🙏 Thank you Guruji! 😇
Loved this video! Thank you for introducing this subject 🙏 ❤
I love the idea of the rational, spiritual, and appetitive and all that is controlled by the reins. Good one!
Loved this. Disappointed in Socrates, though. The potential art has to connect and expand with our feelings and imagination makes me excited about the power of artistic work.
Modernism could be said to have evolved from a critique of imitative art not dissimilar to that of Plato! A couple of millennia later, he might have been an art critic, rather than a critic of art.
This was great!
Very interesting topic, I loved when you mentioned the other article mentioning that television is criticised similarly as arts by Plato.
Art is my favorite form of philosophy because it can inquire into the nature of things through the senses
(if we take the older Greek definition of aesthetics as a way of communicating through the senses.)
Thanks for making this series of videos.
I will watch every video in this series because I can tell it will make me a better artist.
An Indian chariot paradigm: the horses are the senses; the mind is the reins that guide the senses; the charioteer is the understanding that controls the mind; you are the owner.
Good metaphor.
Hmm I heard this in a E Michael Jones video recently..
This book wakes you up.
I think it is worth mentioning that Republic X ends with Socrates recounting a myth in an attempt to convince Glaucon that the soul is immortal. It's called "The Myth of Er," and it's about a man who nearly died, and dreamed an afterlife in which he saw the afterlife and a number of souls choose new lives to reincarnate into. Many of the souls mentioned are heroes from Homeric legend (Achilles, Ajax, Odysseus). I think between that, the Noble Lie, the frequent use of analogy in the dialogues, and the fact that at the beginning of Phaedo Socrates is writing poetry because of a recurring dream he's been having that instructs him to "cultivate the arts," I have a hard time believing that Plato's view of art and imitation is as critical and dismissive as it appears here.
Muy buena explicación. Un gran saludo desde Argentina.
Thanks, that was great.
I love Plato and I love (and write) poetry as of flowers and grass on the mountains and valleys, and my love of both endorses the poet, Percy Bysshe Shelley's love of both Plato and poetry too, with all the hope that it can. So I can let Plato do his thing, and all prevalent Platonists too, though his message, coming as if from the wind itself, has failed since if it had worked, I myself would not be writing poems, or, say, reading perpetually the poetry, all through the afternoon and longer on, of William Shakespeare, Dante, Milton and many many others with gifts of happiness. I feel fine reading Plato just as literature, for how else could anybody read him otherwise in our day and time? It is a beautiful aesthetic experience to read Plato.
When I think of you and David with your dialogues together, one difference between you both and Plato's dialogues is how the two of you will exhaust the many philosophical perspectives of a single word, like "boredom," whereas Socrates and those he talked with will begin with going over one word, but then it will lead to another, and then another, and much of the time the ending of a Platonic dialogue results in a standstill in certainty.
But also, I like your existential melancholic Hamletian black turtleneck.
Thank you for this episode!
Great stuff
wondering if you have read David Ferris's Silent Urns, it's a really interesting book on Winkelmann and how his book influences modern conceptions of art.
Great video! One clarification, Plato did not say that God or a god created the Ideal forms. The dialogues do not depict the Forms as being created by a god or gods. Instead, the Forms are treated as eternal truths that exist beyond the physical and temporal realm. In the "Timaeus," which is one of Plato's later works, the character of the demiurge is introduced as a divine craftsman who organizes the cosmos and shapes it according to the patterns of the Forms. The demiurge's role is not to create the Forms themselves but to use them as an eternal model for ordering the universe.
In book 10 he does explicitly say they are made by the Gods under the user/maker/imitator distinction
I watched Michael Sugrue’s lecture on The Republic and he mentioned the Myth of Er from book X was a “scary story,” but I’d like to know if Plato actually believed in this metaphysics or if this a myth he used, symbolically only, to make his education/theology in The Republic more palatable to the masses (the bronze and silver humans perhaps?). New to philosophy and curious if you have any thoughts on this? Thanks for all your channel does!
It's interesting how Plato's drive to functionality from the ideal sort of runs head-on into John Dewey's desire to extricate art from the gallery. It's as if Plato's Socrates wants to return techne to the functional based in eidos, while Dewey wants to insert art into techne and reconnect it to functionality.
Rock on the books. I like this symbol. 🙂🙂
lol @ the dialogue with the neighbor; question mark at what your thoughts are on Art/television/youtube vs Plato's thoughts
Congrats for the video, very well made! I'm going to make a presentation on Plato to a class, can you please redirect me to the article you mentioned to the end? I would be very glad to have that material to draw some inspiration for a possible debate.
The article is this! www.jstor.org/stable/27903079
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy
Thank you!
Anyone interested in this subject should read The Fire and the Sun: Why Plato Banished the Artists, by the philosopher and novelist Iris Murdoch.
I appreciate these videos so much. Will read the essay, "Plato and the Media." Two comments. Is it true that Socrates and Acibiadies were lovers? I think that this might be in, "Symposium." Second, I agree 100 percent with Socrates's correct opinion for censorship. The best "contempory" example is smoking. Until the 1990s, actors routinely smoked in movies; and subsequently, movie goers would start smoking so that they could be "cool" like the actors that they idolized. Well, in the 1990s, a lot of pressure was applied to movie producers to stop the actors from smoking. The movie producers agreed, and there was virtually no smoking in movies made in the 1990s; and subesquently, smoking greatly decreased in the general popualtion; and most significanlty, young people never started smoking. Today, smoking is back in movies. Anyway, here's another bad-influence-correlation that is not as well known as smoking-actors-create-smoking-public. I have a nephew who was a good student. Then, when he turned 14-or=so, his grades plumented. I am convinced that Adam Sandler is the reason. Ha. Seriously. When my nephew got like 14-15, he started watching Adam Sandler movies. Almost immediately, he stopped doing his homework, and thought that it was "cool" to be stupid. The movie where Adam Sandler is an adult-but-returns-to-Kindergarten-or-3rd-grade-or-something was the movie that sent my nephew into an academic spiral from which he never recovered. I thought the kid had the brains to become a doctor; but today, he's a truck driver; and yes, I blame Adam Sandler's influence on early teenage boys. I vote mostly Democrat, but Socrates and today's Republicans have correct opionion about censorship, at least for school age kids. Would love to hear a video about the differences between Olympic Gods Greek Relgion and Greek Orphism Religion. (Didn't closely read-over this for typos/mistakes.) Old Man Delbert Kokomo, Indiana.
I know it's somewhat unrelated to a lot of your content on human sexuality, but would you ever do an episode on Weber? Especially the Protestant Ethic?
Aren’t the dialogues dramatic works themselves ?
Socrates’ depiction of the adverse impacts poetry and artisans can have in society is how I argue the creators of “Big Bang Theory” might be bad people or are likely at least causing harm.
Ma'am where are you from?
Wow!!!.
Plato is more analogical
Accidental? Gap, space, 5:00 to 5:29, left in the Podcast. Message about imperfections in art (Podcast)? [Three times removed].
we left it on purpose :)
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy I was hoping someone else would ask, but can you elaborate/explain what the purpose was?
no reaction...?
How do We give Consideration to Greek philosophers, if USA Gigantic Present is only entertainment., & Art to be the Outmost in creative ideas, does it say that we're very primitive in USA ...
Did Socrates ever play with the idea that art might lift some of the appearance to peak into / point to what he'd consider reality? Or was art seen more as just rigid copying, such that this wouldn't make sense?
a 10 min. bomb :)
This seems to be like the painting "This Is Not A Pipe"... There's a painting of a pipe but the title reminds us that the artwork is not the pipe. Furthermore Plato insists that not even the pipe is the pipe, the ideal form of the pipe is the true pipe. (Properly called _"The Treachery of Images"_
Painting by René Magritte)
I've also been learning about Zizek and his concept of the sublime object of ideology in which there becomes a (Hegelian) dialectical mediation/ reconciliation between the ideal and the article/ the experienced. In Lacanian philosophy images and symbolism are distractions from the Real.
Interesting to note Socrates' view of the rational, spiritual, and appetitive aspects of the soul are contained in the Tarot card 'The Chariot', which symbolizes the need to reign in our lower impulses to reach our intended goals.
How does music fit into Plato's philosophy? Unlike most forms of art, music is not very good at representing things in our reality.
Hey. I think you are cool.
Could I have all your books, the bibliophile that I am.
Ironic that Socrates thought artists corrupted society, but Socrates was condemned for that same crime.
Very true lol
Socrates, these days would be criticizing not just poets but actors as well.
which ww2 film was that. its not a duck its a painting of a duck? i guess life is beautiful with that berto..... . how would you say that that imitaiting helps to find a way to understand. or would you say the mask of a shaman is necessary to move in the underworld?
Profesor Are Friend of Charles Xavier In X Men Movie??? Can you read someone Mind...
Let's Talk about Philosophy of Consciousness Intelligence more than Artificial intelligence
Plato Socrates and Aristoteles
Art ... good Art .... Great art ... is not about drawring a shoe. To quote(from memory ) a great of the 20th century ... 'no I cannot draw a tree but I can paint what you feel when you look at one'
I'll keep giving this subscrption some time....but. lift your game.
Liking your work v much - you're a great explainer of ideas and texts. But why are your recent videos adjusted to leave you with very dull, flat skin-tones? Your earlier clips looked much better.
Yes, the shoe is well drawn. It feels like it was copied.
ce n'est pas une chaussure
A couple more comments. I can't see how ChatGPT or any LLM AI can create Authentic Art. Why not? Well, because Authentic Art needs a Culture. In Professor M. H. Abrams books, he uses the word, "Universal" instead of "Culture." I don't get this. "Universal?" Art needs a Culture to represent via the Art. No Culture. No Art. Have yet to listen to Professor Anderson's, "Cultural Appropriation" video. Hopefully, will do so soon. Now, here is the Great Irony. All Cultures are Romanticism Philosophies. The first Culture was the first Monarchy, the first King and Queen, whomever this man and woman were. Then, the Art withing that Culture would reflect this Monarchy and its court and its nobles/aristocrats, the people who owned the lands and slaves. Now, Romanticism Philosophy is expressed via Conservative Politics. Thus, the Art of the Artist is Romanticism and Romanticism is Conservative Politics. However!! Most
Artists are Political Liberals! See this amazing Great Irony? The Artist is most often a Liberal (Empiricism Materialism Philosophy), but he or she is creating Cultural Romantic Conservative Art!! Artist Liberal. Art Conservative. I could get much deeper into this, but I will leave this As-is, for now. One last note, some years back, I tried to read Otto Rank's book, "Art and the Artist." Professor Rank's writing style was so difficult that I quit on the book, but that's the book that really gets extra deep into this "subject." "Aesthetics: A Comprehensive Anthology Reader" is $68 on Amazon. Regardless, I must buy it. I'm sure the writing is more polished.
"the character of Socrates" 🤣
I love listening to poetry, but I am careful not to be affected by their thoughts, because in my opinion, they are nothing but a group that says what they do not do, and they always talk about lust, sex and wars, and they love praising rulers and useless talk about the beloved. Anyway, what did we benefit from you? No wonder Plato excluded you from his republic.
On behalf of our community, we would like to thank you for the presentation which mentions the reasons why "poets", in a broad sense, should be totally banned from today's society! Thank you, Dr. Anderson!